[rock music] Mm, honey. It tastes like it costs. Hi, welcome to Tasteland. I'm Daisy Alioto, and I'm here- And... with my co-host...
Well, say your own name. Oh, I'm Francis Zierer. We're not gonna redo that. [laughs] Don't- Uh, today, [laughs]
today we're speaking with Ben Leventhal, who is easily one of the most influential people to have worked in the hospitality industry, uh, but never actually in a bar or restaurant so far this century.
Um, previous century? Maybe. We'll ask about it. This century. Well, 25 year- It's 25 years. Okay. You know? 25 years, yeah. We're, we are in a century. Um, [laughs]
He co-founded Eater 20 years ago and Resy 10 years ago, and he's currently working on Blackbird, which he founded in 2022. Um, and Blackbird's a loyalty and payments company for the restaurant industry.
It's like a coffee shop punch card, um, that the host at your favorite restaurant can access to know things about you, where else you've eaten. I have the app on my phone.
I was gonna pull it up and say how many Fly points I have, because there is a token associated- Mm-hmm... with Blackbird. Um- But that's another thing about it.
It's kind of the maybe the best crypto consumer app so far, because it's like you don't have to say it's a crypto cons- It doesn't feel like that. Definitely.
I would say, like, if you listen to our episode with Ty Haney, like what Ty is doing in consumer, um- Mm, quite similar, yeah... yeah, like Ben is doing for restaurants. I, I have a pathetic amount of Fly. I have
6,168 points, which sounds like a lot, but it is not. I mean, there's people who go on, like, crawls to collect it. I have 100. I only have 100. I, I downloaded the app like- Okay, well that's even more pathetic. Whoa...
a year and a half ago, but that's it. What a loser. [laughs] Yeah. I... Well, a colleague of mine has... He was showing me. He has like, I forget if it's 50,000. I think he has like 500,000 Fly or something.
It's, it's someone's in. Is this Nick? No, uh, Corwin. Okay. Well- Mm-hmm... Corwin and I can link up, and he can, maybe he can give me some Fly. But, um- [laughs]
Well, you and I, we sometimes we get into restaurant discourse. Mm-hmm. I'm, I'm trying to remember the last time I used Resy. Um, I- I use it like every week honestly. Okay, go off.
[laughs] So you're just gonna be like, "Thank you, Ben Leventhal." Yeah. Well, I mean, sometimes though it's like sometimes I feel trapped by it, though I don't know if I wanna tell him that.
Um, no, more so it's like I feel crazy when I'm like trying to get a booking at a, a specific restaurant, and then I can't book it.
And so I'll, like I'll book like seven different restaurants for that same night, like 6:00, 6:00 PM to 8:00 PM- Okay, so what I'm hearing-... window-... is you're the problem... give me the notify.
That I have a problem? You're the problem. You're breaking the social contract because everyone else is doing that, and that's why you can't get the reservation you want. Yeah. No, no, I, this is like- No, no... week of.
This is like- Okay... no, I... Look, okay, I will say- [laughs]... I have, you know, this is embarrassing to say this, but I have logged on to Resy.
I've set an alarm at like 9:55 on a Thursday to like, you know, when the restaurant I'm trying to go to... I think I was trying to go to Bonnie's- Mm-hmm... the restaurant in, um, in Williamsburg, East Williamsburg.
Uh, and so I set the alarm, 'cause they release the reservations like three weeks out at 10:00 AM, and so Thursday morning, I did it to try to get the... And I got it, but, um, but yeah, I did.
It's like a sneaker drop but for a seat at a restaurant three weeks from now, you know? Yeah. Anyways, um, I last- Uh... used it at a new restaurant called Young Chuan in- Mm... on Clinton Street in the Lower East Side.
Yeah, heard of it. Mm-hmm. It was pretty good. Well, I did not make the reservation, but I went to Roman's in- Yeah... Fort Greene this, um- Wait, I should say though, I, that restaurant, I read...
I, I found out about it on Eater, so it's, you know, a full Leventhal production. It's Leventhal all the way down. Um- It is. Anyways, Ro- I thought you meant Roman's for a second. Have you been?
No, uh, but it's, uh, it's a what's-his-name Andrew Tarlow restaurant, right? No. Diner guy. I don't know. I don't know why I said yes. Yeah, it is. I don't know, actually. I guess so.
This was the third annual symposium. My friends and I went last year after going the year before, and then we were like, "Okay, now it's a trend- tradition." Mm-hmm. It's an annual tradition.
So this was our third annual Roman's dinner. Symposium. Who were the panelists? [laughs] Um, my friend Samantha Weisberg and my friend, uh, Alex Marvar. Mm-hmm. And, um, both work in media in some capacity.
And, um, yeah, it was great. Like we had- Legit, yeah... uh, we sort of were like, gotta do... We weren't, like, that interested in, like, the seconde. Mm.
So we did all of the pastas, and then there was like a really amazing beet appetizer. Mm. Um, and then there was also a really good endive appetizer with, um, like shaved cheese on it.
I'm trying to remember what cheese it was. Um- Mm-hmm... for me, the highlight was dessert, because they had- Oh, okay... a concord grape soft serve- Yeah... which they serve when it's in season. And the umami was crazy.
Like, I took a bite, and my mouth was just, like, flooded with saliva. Uh-huh. [laughs] And I always do my post-dinner espresso, so- Oh, okay, yeah... I was just like- Very Italian... I love having my little espresso...
Very Italian, yes. Mm. I love having my little espresso cup, and then, yeah, three spoons sharing- Mm... the soft serve. I like a di- I like a digestif myself, like a little Amaro Nonino or something like that.
I like that too. Sometimes I can't always do it. I do not drink... I don't drink a lot. Mm-hmm. I had, um, some wine at Redora beforehand. Mm. So that's- Mm-hmm...
that's when I ran into Emily Sundberg's Feed Me relaunch party. Mm-hmm. Um, so that was a, a nice accident/coincidence, 'cause I said hi, and then I saw some other people I know. I saw Emmett Shine- Mm-hmm...
um, who's been mentioned on this podcast before. Friend of the pod. He will have to be a guest at some point, and ran into some other folks that I know. Mm-hmm. Uh, and then so I had a glass of wine.
I had a glass of orange wine, and then- Wait, wait, wait. Okay, wait, wait, wait, wait. Before we get too far away, what were the pa- what were the pasti? I don't know if pasti is... What were the pastas you had?
Um- You can give me the top one. Honestly, I, I kinda don't remember. Wow.The shapes. Like You are such a different type of diner than me. I am so... I, I would, I would've remembered all the details.
Well, I remember what they look like- [laughs]... and I remember what they taste like, but I can't- Okay... remember the name of the pasta shape- Well, wax lyrical... of my favorite one.
Well, there was like one that was like a ragu- [laughs]... and then there was one that was more of like I think a mushroom ricotta ravioli. Yeah.
Um, and then there was another one that had a little bit more of a pepper kick to it. Uh-huh. Oh- Well- Wait, so there's- Wait... a tuna one. The- Okay... my favorite was the tuna. Tuna confit. Wait. Are the...
Um, so the, the waiter is clearing our appetizers. Uh, main course is here. Mm-hmm. Ben, Ben is here. I'm gonna let him in. Oh, Ben's the main course. I get it. Hi. Oh, what's up, Ben? [laughs] How's it going? What's up?
Um, we were just... I was walking, uh, Francis through everything I ate for dinner at Roman's on Sunday. [laughs] Oh. How was it? It was fantastic. Yeah. Yeah. It's a solid spot. Okay.
Wait, I have a question I wanna get into right away. [laughs] Um, all right.
New York Times, you guys put out on your, the content arm of Blackbird, uh, when Pete Wells was retiring, you guys put out a little piece on it.
Um, this was before they had announced, uh, the temporary reviewers, which are Priya Krishna and Melissa Clark, and I think this is really interesting because they are not these pseudo-anonymous restaurant critics, right?
Um, and then like New York Mag, Grub Street, Adam Platt replaced by Matthew Schneider, you know, already somebody whose image is very out there. Do you think the pseudo-anonymous restaurant critic is dead as a concept?
We're getting right into it, huh? This is such a good question. We're hopping right in. [laughs] No warm up, no warm up at all. [laughs] No. Um, I think that the anonymous restaurant critic has been dead for a long time.
Mm-hmm. I think it's useful in a way for us to think about the big-time critics as being able to traipse around anonymously, but I think realistically it's been dead for a long time. They were never anonymous.
The photo was alr- already in the back room. These pho- these, these sheets of photos of critics and important people in kitchens has been a known thing for a decade, maybe two. Mm-hmm.
So, um, in many ways the stripping of anonymity I think makes the whole process a little bit more honest- Mm... for the reader, uh, for the critic, for the restaurant- Mm...
and I think it's healthy that we're probably finally saying, "Uh, it's not a thing anymore." Fair. Um, okay, another thing- But do you- I was reading... Oh, go ahead...
is it, is it comforting to you to know the critic's anonymous? Do you need that for the journalistic- Mm... integrity of it all? That's a good question.
I don't necessarily think I do, because like you're saying, it was already kind of a f- a facade for a little while. Um, I, okay, well this, this ties into this quote I had.
There was this piece in Taste today called, uh, Is There a Case for Gatekeeping? Okay.
And this is quote, "In a world in which TikTok has democratized recommendate- recommendation culture and taken it out of the ivory towers of restaurant criticism, attention is garnered in the currency of both aesthetics and trust."
So I think the question of aesthetics there is maybe a good point, where like it's less about the restaurant critic being anonymous, and it's more of this like aesthetic of rigor rather than pure promotion, where like an Instagram, you know- Mm...
a creator who's going and doing like a, a review or just a promotion, like- Cheese pull. Cheese, a cheese pull, that is like functions kinda purely as marketing and not- Yeah... a critical approach, right?
So I think beyond like the anonymity, it's more about the critical rigor that actually matters. I think that's right. I think critical rigor matters a lot.
I, when I think about the great critics, and, and to me it's guys like Bruni who in their, in their time defined the scene, to me I think it comes down to great writing- Mm-hmm...
um, and a true, a, a take that has real context to it, meaning that when Frank Bruni walks into a place and says, "That's two stars or three stars," he writes a really entertaining review about it.
It's a fun read, which restaurant criticism should be. Mm-hmm. It shouldn't be, shouldn't feel tough to get through a restaurant review, and oftentimes it does. But the good guys
write reviews that you love reading, and what they, what you have is a take that has a lot of context, and you know that whatever they're saying, you may not agree with it, but it's coming...
But they've, if they're saying, "This is a great porterhouse," or they're saying, "This is a great risotto," they've had 45 others- Yeah... and they can tell you based on having all those others, this one's pretty good.
Mm. So to me, that's the part of professional criticism that matters a ton, and that's what obviously you don't get with Instagram or- Mm-hmm... social media, um, influencers.
It's much more of a sort of ephemeral, in the moment, um, emotional take- Mm... which has its place, but it certainly is not traditional long-form criticism.
I also, I feel like this is related to a conversation that Francis and I have been having like an ongoing basis about media in general.
You know, we talked about like Taylor Lorenz leaving the Washington Post, going to Sub Stack, this era of sort of solo media operators, um, where I think people are realizing, like I don't necessarily want the person whose newsletter I read to be unbiased, because objectivity is like a moving target.
Mm. Tell me what your biases are. And I think the anonymity of like restaurant critics, kind of like people just conflated that with objectivity- Mm-hmm...
when it's actually like not necessarily about their anonymity to the restaurant. It's about the way that they sort of externalize-...
where their biases might be or their preferences, and then allow other people to sort of navigate that instead of this, like, performance that everything is totally objective, which is impossible. I totally agree.
I think the way I think about that is that in many ways the job of these guy- of these critics, um, is to sort of break the algorithms. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Meaning, like, we want them to have a take, we want the take to be consistent over many, many, many restaurants, otherwise it's really hard to follow along.
But then what we want them to do is we want them to do things that are surprising, that don't match, that are sort of narrative violations or things that, like, like I said, the algorithm wouldn't pick up.
You know, Wells files- The Send Your Frogs, uh- Yeah... review. Narrative violation. [laughs] Or, or like, Wells files a two-star review at Spice Brothers. Mm. Mm-hmm. Which is an amazing joint.
Like, if you haven't been you should go today, but it's a walk-in QSR, like, it, it ain't a restaurant. Mm. Yeah.
So in no algorithm, no, no, no influencers, no platform would be able to come up with that, but that's what the critic does. Yeah.
And as long as they do that consistently, they're great, they're perfect, and they are incredibly valuable to the system. But...
And I think, I think you're right, like, when we have writers on platforms like Substack sort of, um, unedited, unfiltered, as long as we kind of
start to know where they're coming from and can assign an honesty to what they're writing based on where they're coming from- Mm-hmm... then I think they, they are very creative to the system overall. Yeah.
I think that, um, that, like, consistency of quality, but, like, n- the, the pr- the lack of predictability for, like, the reader, you know, breaking the algorithm, however you wanna say it, I think is so important.
And I think that's, like, yeah, a big difference between somebody who's part of a bigger publication, right, and then the independent creator.
Whereas, like, the independent creator, you're just going out there, you're not having somebody pushing on you and being like, "Well, I don't know, you've, we've done too many like this recently," or like, "This is kind of, you know, a rehashed opinion.
Y- you wrote the same piece last week." I think that is, like, the big, a big difference between the person who's part of the publication and then the solo person. Absolutely.
And I mean, I think if you, if you, if you look at kinda what's going on at The Times right now, you have two critics who are both finding their sea legs. Mm.
And to me, the sort of discomfort is you don't yet know where they're coming from. Mm. Yeah. And some of the reviews they've done have felt off, but I think we're sort of indexing to what we expect. Yeah.
And so we may look back, hopefully we get a sense over the next couple of months who ultimately becomes the critic. Both of, uh, these writers I think are well qualified for the job.
Um, but right now it sort of feels uncomfortable to us. La Baudor two stars, Bungalow three stars, Lola two. Like, we don't really know, you know, what's coming our way- Mm...
which makes it sort of feel unfamiliar, and I think a little uncomfortable- Mm. Mm... so far. Here's a spicy meatball. [laughs] What do you think are the definitive New York restaurants of the moment right now? Um, I...
So for me, New York restaurants, the definitive New York restaurants are the ones that really are not trying very hard- Mm... or if they are trying very hard, you can't tell. Mm.
And I think that no city on the planet does res- does those kinds of restaurants as well. Paris gets close- Mm... and Paris restaurants sometimes are a- are, like, are many, many times incredible.
But I think the sort of definitive New York restaurant is always the one where you walk in and y- you're almo- like, it all just feels so effortless, and so, like, like, the restaurant's in its sweet spot.
So for me, like, right now, um, La Baudor for sure. Mm-hmm. Borgo on 27th Street, uh, I think is doing a great job. Bridges- Mm...
um, which is sort of in the s- the coolest possible location you could imagine, sort of in that, like, Chinatown, Two Bridges universe that- Yeah... you don't really know what's what. Such a special spot.
Just down the block from- Yeah... uh, Great New York Noodle Town, right? Yeah. Um, so those are places I think that are, like, really humming. Obviously, the clubs are a thing in New York again. Mm-hmm.
You know, the private membership club. Clubstaurants. Clubstaurants, membership clubs that are actually restaurants. Well, this is your big dichotomy, right? The club diner theory. Yeah. It is. Mm. It absolutely is.
And, and, and by the way, in that context, the re- the clubs that just say they're clubs and charge a bunch of pe- a bunch of money up front, I, you know...
Like, as I s- as I, as I've said, as long as you understand what your business model is- Mm-hmm... and you can go and execute, you sh- you, you, you stand a chance, you know?
I mean, I think these clubs right now, we'll see how many wind up as clubs, right? Like, Flyfish, Chre- Ch- uh, Chez Margaux, uh, Crane Club. Yeah. Um, y- you know, 22 hasn't opened yet, but is coming.
All these kinda downtown clubs. Uh, Zero Bond, which has been open for a couple years and has, to its credit, maintained its status as a club.
You know, I, I think some of these places will have to really look kinda inward and figure out, are we really a club or is this just- Mm... a restaurant?
Um, you know, if you're only open five days a week starting at 5:30, that feels a lot like a restaurant to me and less like a club. Mm. Mm-hmm. But we'll see. We'll see. They're certainly getting a lot of buzz. Yeah.
I went to Frog Club for the first time on Sunday night for a private event, like a, a Lit Mag launch f- and I had a piece in it.
And I would not have gone to Frog Club earlier when it was really buzzy, because I get, not intimidated in the sense that I feel like, "Oh, I'm not cool enough to be here. I don't belong here"- Mm-hmm...
but I don't like that feeling of not knowing if you can get in. Yeah. And, you know, the stickers over the phone, that moment of... I would say that moment of, like, trying hard has obviously passed, and so I said to...
We just walked right in-And it was all just people there for the event, walked right up, ordered a drink, and I said to my friend, "I'm so glad that I finally got to come here, but under these- Mm-hmm...
circumstances and not the circumstances of trying to sort of like elbow in and be part of the discourse or the throng, because this is what I want. Like, this is so much better."
Um, and then I got in a car to go back to Brooklyn and do... You know, you have the little, like, looking, like, looking at the skyline as you go over the bridge moment.
[laughs] But as we were coming down, I guess the west side, I had never passed Casa Cipriani- Oh... at night, and I was like, "What the heck is that?"
Like, I mean, I guess it's been, like, a few years, but I was like, "It looks like an old, um, like casino, fancy casino boat, right?" [laughs] And, um, or, like, something out of, uh, the French Quarter- New Orleans...
in New Orleans. Yeah. Mm-hmm. And I was like, "What is that?" And then I saw- [laughs]... you know, the name. But, um, that's what I thought of when you said clubs.
It's such a, it's such a fine line, and honestly, like, I think your experience does depend on, like,
how, the circumstances under which you, you get in, or go in, or go for the first time, which rarely have anything to do with the food. Yep. I totally agree.
I mean, the clubs that just say they're clubs are okay in my book. Mm-hmm. If you're in a club and you say, "Look, this is a club. You say your name at the front, and we say yes or no whether or not you're a member.
That's how it is. It's a transaction. You know, take it or leave it," I'm fine with those places. Mm-hmm. I think the places that are somewhere,
operate in a more nebulous zone, and I think, I think, Daisy, to, to your point, Frog Club for a while was in that zone. Mm-hmm. That's where things get a little bit fru- a little bit frustrating. Mm-hmm.
Um, and they sort of start to class their citi- you know, their customers into, into, into different classes. So- Yeah... yeah. Well, okay- Every, every restaurant does it a little bit differently...
with, with Blackbird, it's like, it's kind of, like, trying to... Maybe I'm, maybe I'm gonna get the vision wrong here, right?
But it's somewhat trying to, like, democrat- a- allow even the diner category restaurants to kind of create these tiers of, of clubdom or, like, this type of feeling, feeling that you belong, right?
Um, and I, I'm interested, like, like, with Resy, right? Like, I use Resy every week. I, I've got a Resy tomorrow. I had one on Friday. You know- Francis wants to say thank you for your service.
[laughs] No, but, but j- Where are you tomorrow? Where are you going tomorrow? Uh, tomorrow I'm going to Decades. Um, this is just a little, you know, Little Gren Ja is doing a little pop-up there.
There's gonna be some kinda special pizza, whatever. Um- I look forward to it. Yeah. The, the point is I feel like Resy is so integral to, to dining out now, and it's such like...
You know, I've done the thing where I'm, like, setting 10 notifications in a two-hour window to try to get, like, a nice restaurant for, like, a last-minute special occasion type of thing.
Um, all just to say, like, the, the Resy, the Resy-fication of restaurants has, has happened, right? At least in New York, at least for somebody like me, it's such a part of my every day.
In, like, a decade from now, or, like, eight years from now, you know, a decade of Blackbird, in the same way that Resy has, like, done that and that it is such a part of my restaurants, like, how, in your long-term dreams for Blackbird, how is the restaurant-going experience different in the same way that now it's different for me with Resy than it would've been 10 years ago?
I'm craving a little bit more serendipity and fluidity- Mm... to my dining experience. Mm. Mm-hmm. I hate making plans. [laughs] And I'm not particularly good at making advanced plans. Mm-hmm.
And so what invariably happens to me, especially later in the week when things are hard, or every place is hard to get into, it's like a mad scramble at that moment to text some friends and see who's got a table where- Mm...
and does that line up with my wife's craving and my craving, or where, if we're going out with friends. Like, uh, you know, God forbid it's three couples, and then- [laughs]...
we're really screwed, 'cause, like, a table for six on two hours notice is literally impossible. Impossible. Not gonna happen.
[laughs] So I, to me that, all of that [clears throat] sys- the system that exists that creates that environment,
it's a result of restaurants having a lack, a lack of certainty as to who's coming and, um, and whether or not they're gonna meet their, uh, their sort of open the door cost for the night- Mm... break even for the night.
Um, and the opportunity, especially coming out of COVID where, um, the, you know, with various requirements and restrictions, you kinda did have to know who was coming in, um, the opportunity for restaurants to kinda shift the model a little, you know, and essentially sort of, um, uh, phase out the walk-in.
So I think we're kind of seeing in s- in select little spots, and then there's examples of kind of the walk-in coming back and restaurants loosening up a little bit.
But the answer to your question is I'm craving something that's much more fluid and serendipitous- Yeah...
in dining, and I think what that ultimately is gonna come down to is customers and restaurants kinda getting a little bit more familiar with each other. Mm.
And in both directions, there being an opportunity to pass data a little bit more easily. Um, and what that means is customers and restaurants should just get matched up better. Mm. Mm. You know?
I don't think this is about democratization or not. I think we all want restaurants to be democratic, but we also want them to stay open. And in some, and sometimes that means they can't be democratic.
Sometimes that means that if there's only five seats at a particular time, they do need to maximize revenue- Mm... against those seats. So I'm open to all kinds of different models for what the future looks like.
Um, I don't hate pay for play, because, you know, Resy tried that, um, in 2014. It was too early at that point. It feels like maybe there's a little bit more traction around it now. Um,
I'm open to new models, but I think fundamentally what we're trying to do with Blackbird is create a different connectivity interface for restaurants and guests to, to, to talk to each other, to communicate, to connect.
Restaurants-Need regulars. They appreciate loyalty. Loyalty, loyalty leads to profitability. Customers, I think, inherently are loyal. I think, like- Definitely... nothing is better than feeling like a regular.
Um, whether you've been there 20 times or if Blackbird can get you to sort of feel like a regular on the first, second, or third visit, feeling like a regular is awesome.
You'll do it as many times as you can feel like a regular, you'll do it. So that's sort of what we're, what we're trying to build towards. Mm-hmm.
Um, that, that future where it all feels a little bit easier, and it feels like you're making the connections to the restaurants that you should be, um, the ones that want your business, and places where they're gonna deliver a first-rate experience to you.
Um, it is... it's gonna take us some time to get there, but that's what we're building towards. You know, I think the other, the other thing I would say here is,
and this is I think very much about where we are today, you know, there's like a list of 25 restaurants in New York City that are impossible to get into. Mm-hmm.
I mean, complete no-fly, can't get in, doesn't matter who you are, how far out in advance, can't get in. Your Raos, your Four Charles. Exactly.
But here's the thing, most of the other restaurants in the city, and there are thousands of excellent, excellent, excellent restaurants, you can pretty much get a table anytime you want. Mm.
You just kinda have to know where to look, you have to have enough context to sort of parse, parse the lists on your own.
You know, um, you kinda get, have to get past the sort of Eater heat map or the Resy hit list or- Oh, whose fault is that? [laughs] We're all trying to find the guy who did this. [laughs] But there...
I mean, we could, you know, we could go online right now, we could look on Resy- Mm... and I'll give you 10 tables for this weekend- Mm... that'll be incredible. Yeah. And you'll have a 10 out of 10 experience.
The restaurant has a 7:30, 7:00, 6:30, whatever your prime time is these days. Tables available online, all you have to do is hit the brick and book it. Mm-hmm. Yeah.
Um, it's just that we're so skewed as a result of the ins- influencers, critics- Yeah... the algorithms, that we're not looking exactly in the right place.
So I think there's like a lot of opportunity for things to change. It's easy to forget that there's more than 30 restaurants in the city. Exactly. Exactly. [laughs] Sometimes I...
even I, you know, everyone, you sort of get so caught up in it all. Yeah. Somebody's like, "Well, where should we go on Saturday? W- let's, let's go have fun, let's go to a cool place." And you're like, "Uh-oh.
You know, here we go." Mm-hmm. "We gotta do the thing." Um- We gotta sort of figure it out.
Joe Weisenthal of, um, Odd Lots, uh, AKA The Stalwart, came on a few episodes ago, and this is one of his rants, you know, sort of manual, ma- manuals at Cloud Rant, which was just like- He was saying we would refuse.
Yeah... walking into a restaurant. It's New York City, baby. Like, go into any restaurant, you know? Um- Totally. That's the other thing, and, and it, and, and we're trying to channel this too. Just walk in. Yeah.
Most restaurants, even, I don't care what it is, the low door or corner bar, corner store, like one of these like white hot restaurants, walk in, the worst they're gonna say is, "Sorry." Mm-hmm. But the...
but most likely they're gonna either say, "Give us a second." "There's two at the bar." Like, "There's two at the bar. Can you be out in an hour?" Right? Yeah. Like, that's a way to...
like, like that's always, that's always something that they'll say. Or they'll say, like, you can ask, like, "When can I come back?" Yeah. Some of these places will just say, like, Torrisi's gonna...
You know, you can line up and wait at Torrisi, and a lot of people do. Mm. But I think if you walk into Torrisi at 7:00, and you say, "When's the next time you have prime time?"
You're probably not gonna get an answer, a satisfying answer. Yeah. That's a, you know, Torrisi. Well, so- Those guys have a brand...
I have a question about like the, um, you know, kind of restaurant worker community as it were. So for example, a friend of mine, it was his birthday a couple months ago, I think he went to Saga with his girlfriend.
They splashed out, totally splashed out, uh, and then...
and he's a somm, and I think s- I don't know if you'd said that or if, you know, it was noted in his resy or, or whatever, but they brought out like, uh, a half a bottle that they had opened of some really nice wine, like from his birth year, uh, and they, you know, they gifted it to him.
And so and I used to work in restaurants too, and there's all this like, you know, community. You, you give...
it's like trading that same $20 around, except it's the same, like drink on the house or a couple mains, whatever.
Um, but I say this because I saw when I was scrolling through like the Blackbird Twitter or your Twitter the other day, there was an employees only tap puck. Yeah. And I hadn't seen any...
I couldn't find any other information about that anywhere. So was this kind of like a way of automating that, like, "Hey, I'm also on the inside," and like rewarding other restaurant servers employees?
I'm glad you asked me about the employee puck, 'cause we're really excited about it, and we, we're, we're purposely not really talking about it too much. Mm.
But, um, the employee puck is the puck that you'll fi- the Blackbird puck that you'll find in the locker room or in the kitchen of our restaurants, and it's specifically for restaurant workers to check in. Mm.
It does two things. One is they get better rewards than customers who walk in the front door. Mm.
Uh, and that's because we strongly believe in the value of the restaurant worker population, and we strongly believe that the more we can do to engage with them and to reward them, the more the restaurant ecosystem is healthy.
Um, so it rewards them at a slightly different rate than customers. Mm. But it also tags them as industry workers. Yeah.
And so when those people walk around the city, and they check in at other Blackbird restaurants, they have a special tag that you can only get by consistently checking in on a purple puck.
So I, I, I mean, it's incredibly exciting for us, to be honest with you. We didn't initially sort of have this idea.
It wasn't in the business plan when we were, when we were mapping out what Blackbird was to be, but we got feedback from a bunch of restaurants.
You know, how do we-How do we sort of, um, think about our servers in all this, and what does that look like?
And, and it got- it led us to this, to this, uh, employees only puck, and, um, w- we're just incredibly sat- uh, excited about what, what it, what it may do for the industry. Yeah, no, that's really cool.
One thing I was thinking about when you were talking about, um, you know, just going in and asking if they have a table is this other theme, ongoing theme of the podcast is this idea of, like, friction and how so many parts of culture, it feels like we want them to be frictionless right now from, like, sports betting to, um- Zins...
buying a Rolex. Or Zin, yeah. Like, nicotine has to be frictionless. You don't even have to have a lighter on you anymore, go outside to smoke, and what does that do to our culture?
And I think one of the things that it does is it, it creates maybe this feeling in a younger generation or a new sort of diner that, like, if you walk in and ask if they have a table, and they say no, and somebody...
You have to have that interaction of somebody saying no in person to your face- Mm-hmm...
that that's some sort of, like, value judgment on you, or it's gonna create this, like, psychic damage where it's like- [laughs]... "Oh, that, that was so embarrassing.
I, I, I can only make reservations on Resy from now on." And it's, like, the same thing in, like, buying a Birkin or a Rolex.
Um, you know, to go back to the gatekeeping thing, during COVID, I was working at Hodinkee, and there was all this energy around making the secondary market for watches accessible so somebody would never have to hear no.
They could just buy the Rolex that they wanted. They didn't have to be on a waiting list.
They didn't have to form a relationship with the people that work in the store, and they were willing to pay more money just to not hear no. And I think, like, what I hear you saying is, like, it's not total democracy.
There's still some gatekeeping, but you are giving people information of how they can kind of earn into that access through creating a relationship or being a regular.
And it's not the first time you walk in, you will have a totally frictionless experience with special treatment. It's that here's a pathway to, over time- Mm-hmm...
um, through experiences that naturally contain friction, whether that's, like, not always getting the table that you want off the bat, or the reservation you want off the bat, or the watch that you want off the bat, form relationships that will actually be more meaningful to you and to the culture generally because having a frictionless culture is, like, not working out.
[laughs] I don't know that we actually want that, though. I mean, when you think about any of these examples, and, you know, um, watches is a good one- Mm... restaurants a good one,
the last thing you want is to go to a hot restaurant without a reservation and for them to say, "Oh, by all means, come right in." Totally. Y- you instantly think to yourself, "I've made the wrong decision."
You devalue it. "This restaurant is not as hot as I thought it was." Mm.
If you go into the Rolex store, and you say, "I really want the Daytona Le Mans," and they're like, "Oh, no problem, here it is for you, sir," you think you made the wrong choice. This is part of us. Mm-hmm.
Like, we are imperfect humans in this way. Yeah. We need the no to validate the choice we make. Yes, but I think the no has to be paired with some sort of information of, like, what you need to do to get a yes.
Absolutely. Yeah. Absolutely right. We want a strategy. I totally agree. Yeah. The, the transparency of the no is really important. Totally. And I think if you look at how...
You know, I, I, I'm a novice in the watch industry, but I happen to sort of follow along the Hodinkee account well enough to know a couple of things.
I, I, um, I know what I don't know at least, and, um, you know, I think there's been, there's emerged some transparency as to what it takes to get some of these, like, really rarefied watches, right?
Like, you- you're sort of, all of a sudden there's transparency.
Well, you have to spend this amount of money in the Rolex store to be offered this watch, or, you know, here's how you get one of these Patek, uh, stainless wat- whatever it is. You know, I think, I think you're right.
I think the transparency of the no is crucial, and maybe that's sort of what we're evolving into, um, and, and what we're starting to see emerge. Well, I think the new...
Well, the hot watch was, like, the MoonSwatch, right? But now [laughs] I love that. By the way, that... By the way, you can, you can walk into the Swatch store and buy that watch. It's just the Blue Moon. Yeah.
That was the, that was the one. Well, now it's gonna be that Casio ring watch that's, like, all over, uh, the streetwear accounts Hypebeast right now. Yeah. Everyone's gonna want this, like, Casio ring watch.
I really think it's the next MoonSwatch. Um, okay. Well, so speaking of friction- Mm... what is the biggest barrier to getting more restaurants on Blackbird? Mm. Like, for example, I've, I've actually...
I, I, I downloaded the app, like, a year and a half ago. I've never used it 'cause the closest restaurant to me is, like, uh, Fallen Sai, I think. Um, but, like, you know, I'm right by Rolo's.
I go to Rolo's all the time. Yeah. They don't have it. I would use it there.
Um, yeah, what's, what's the biggest barrier to getting, like, every restaurant on in the same way that it seems like Resy now has every restaurant on? It's just time. Mm. They will all be Blackbird restaurants- Mm...
on a long enough time, on an oma- long, long enough time- timeline. Mm-hmm. Um, you know, restaurants, just like humans, just like, um, companies, there's...
The, each restaurant has its own sort of perspective on, um, adoption of new technology. Some restaurants like to be on the bleeding edge. Some restaurants like to be way behind. Mm. Mm-hmm.
Um, it, it depends on your perspective on lots of things, and, and, and so we just have to go and pick off restaurants in the right order, you know? We have a sales team that we're making real investments in.
We're growing the platform substantially. We'll be close to 1,000 restaurants by the end of the year. Um, San Francisco, Charleston are investment markets for us, but it's just a matter of time. Yeah.
How, how big is the team? Sorry. Just under 40. Oh, okay, wow. Mm. What, uh, what, through the data collection that you've done so far, I mean, 1,000 restaurants is a lot.
Like, what have you learned about diners through this data collection that you didn't necessarily know in the previous two decades of working in the industry?I mean, I think that
we, we validated the idea that consumers understand value when it's put in front of them. Mm.
I mean, I think, you know, we're doing things to activate and promote the brand, um, setting up things like pop-ups at The Standard- Mm...
or The Breakfast Club, which is, you know, a super high value way to get your daily cup of coffee. Burger League. Um, Burger League.
Um, I think we're validating stuff we probably sort of could guess, um, but we see clearly that consumers understand their value, understand the value they can bring to restaurants, are sort of, um...
They want to engage in that conversation and, and, and connect with restaurants that will have them. Mm.
I think we're also seeing that, you know, when I talk about how there's sort of more fish in the sea, so to speak, in terms of the restaurants, like it's not all about the top 10.
Part of that is coming from the data, and we see that customers are, are willing to visit other restaurants based on recommendations we make, based on value we set up at those restaurants.
So yeah, I think it's, I think it's about consumers' willingness to explore more than anything else right now. That's pretty exciting for us. Mm-hmm.
Figuring out, like, payments and loyalty is obviously, like, at the core of- Yeah... what Blackbird is doing. Um, and you have obviously figured out that balance in the past. Um,
well, I'm thinking about, like, American Express's acquisition of Resy and, like, what that says about the relationship between a product like Resy and loyalty and payments, and they're, like, how they go together.
Um, you know, if- Is there any, uh, desire to at some point, um, expand, like, what this infrastructure of loyalty and payments that you're setting up through Blackbird beyond the restaurant industry?
In other industries? Mm-hmm. Absolutely. I think we need to start with something purpose-built for restaurants. Mm. I think until we get that right, we can't move on to the next. Mm-hmm. Um, but, you know,
I do have a strong belief that we can unify small businesses with global loyalty and, and create an absolute ton of value- Mm... on both sides of, of the marketplace.
And so i- if when we get it right for restaurants, we absolutely will look to other industries. You know, basically,
there's restaurants and there's, uh, companies, there's retail companies, there's all kinds of consumer businesses that are very large scale, and they all have some notion of loyalty.
The problem is everyone that doesn't have that scale, you're competing for the same customers- Mm... and why you've seen, like, some of these markets get so out of whack from an equilibrium standpoint.
So yeah, I think we're excited to figure this out in restaurants and expand it to lots of things. Yeah. Well, I have The Breakfast Club card, and- There you go... I, um...
Yeah, I think I actually went by chance on the site before it was live. So I think I have, like, a very low number. Maybe I'll pull it up so I can brag. This is...
I feel like this is the joy of having the app too, that you can- Totally... you can see your stats. Well, I have also...
I always wanted to ask you, I read the fly paper, which was like the white paper that sort of laid- Yeah...
out this thesis of loyalty and why blockchain infrastructure, even though it's, you know, a lot deeper than most of the front-end customers will interact with, is like the best home for this.
Can you, can you talk about that a little bit? And I know you reissued the white paper integrating some of the things that you learned early on, but I did not have a chance to read the latest version.
So kind of how, how has your thinking around that evolved since that first white paper was written? Um, we strongly believe that blockchain is the right place to think about identity and to think about payments. Mm.
Um, and in both those universes, the availability of an open system, I think creates different dynamics and incredibly valuable opportunities for participants, network participants, right?
So on the identity front, what we're basically saying is your identity needs to be yours and needs to be in your control at all times.
Now, I think we gotta, we kinda get a little bit, um, out of whack in terms of how individuals reflexively think about personal data, and I think we get a little bit, um, too protective of our data in a lot of, in a lot of ways.
You know, we reflex-reflexively hate when we get a marketing email that we didn't, we don't remember sharing the email address or something that sort of feels too targeted. All of a sudden- Mm... it feels invasive.
I get all that. But at the end of the day, I think what the future looks like for identity is you feel like you're in control of it.
You feel like you can place your identity in consumer and other settings where it will add context and value to your experience. Mm. And we need the blockchain to make that a reality.
To make it a truly portable, shareable, kind of interactive, interconnected system, we need this, we need the blockchain and the scale of that, of that, of that technology- Mm-hmm...
to make it all work, for those things to be interoperable at that scale. So that's the identity piece. In terms of payments, look, we have Visa Net, we have MasterCard, we have Amex, we have, we have l- ACH.
We have very large scale payment systems that [chuckles] no use... uh, don't need blockchain, right? So we know this can be done without blockchain.
Our perspective is it can be done better, more cost effectively on-chain, and we have an opportunity by putting it on-chain to change a little bit how traditionally ownership is thought of and how control is thought of-One of the things that we introduced as a concept in the update of the Fly paper is that the restaurants will start...
We've, we've clarified how restaurants may start to feel ownership of the network. Mm. Right? 'Cause this is the really thing, this is the thing that when we, w- from the, from the get- Mm...
this is what we've said we wanna do. We wanna build a payments network, but we want it to be co-owned by the restaurant industry.
If restaurants are p- are, are pumping a trillion dollars of USD through the economy every year, and they're paying 3% every time it moves around, that doesn't feel like a good system.
We want restaurants to be able to move money around at a much more cost-effective price, and to feel like they're in control of it. So when you look back at how Visa was created, right?
Visa was a network of banks that collectively together move money around. Mm-hmm. Um, uh, it's a, a little bit oversimplified, but not by much. Mm.
And the more money you move, the, the, the bigger your bank, the more share you had of the network.
So again, lots of the examples in a, in a traditional Web2 or legacy universe where some of these ideas work, it's just that the blockchain may get them to work a little bit better- Mm...
and a little bit more efficiently, and we may be able to get it to market faster. Mm. Um, and I think any time you have an opportunity to use cutting-edge technology, you ought to take advantage of it.
Um, so we think those, those are the two big ones where blockchain is starting to, to show some real, some real value. So what, what does, like, the restaurants having ownership mean in this?
I, I read the, the Not Boring newsletter that you did- Yeah... about you. Um, and you said overall the restaurant industry should own roughly half of the network. Yeah. Um, what, what are, like...
what is the implication of that? Like, just that it being more cost-effective for them to move the money around? Well, let me be totally candid and say we're still figuring that out. Yeah.
But here's, here's one idea that we have. This is some alpha in parlance of the, uh- [laughs] The crypto world... of, of the youngs. [laughs] Love alpha Um, uh, here's one idea we have.
Um, if every, if every network participant in Blackbird has to hold a certain amount of F2, which is our token, in order to be a network participant, then there's a real value that starts to accrue to that F2.
And so the restaurant, by holding it, it pr- it participates in the accrual of value. Mm-hmm. And in some states, you know, liquor license- 'Cause they're essentially staking it? Yes. Mm-hmm. Exactly.
And they're staking, they're staking it against an increasing value to the platform. Mm-hmm. Right? So, uh, that's a simple way to do it.
Um, and that's something that we've been talking about in the last couple of months that we're pretty excited about, and are trying to sort of cross the T's on. So I think there's a bunch of...
And obviously, the regulatory environment plays huge here. Mm-hmm. Right? We can't...
There's a lot of things that from a rel- regulatory perspective are third rail right now, and you- there's lots of examples of companies that have tried to do things over the last five years that have, that have gotten in, gotten themselves in a lot of trouble.
So some of this is regulatory. So we, you know, we, as the regulatory b- environment evolves, we may see different ideas start to feel more or less viable.
But that's an idea that we really are excited about that we think sort of is pretty, is pretty, uh, non-controversial, uh, from a regulatory standpoint that would give restaurants a lot of control- Mm...
and a lot of ownership of the network they're helping us build. Um, so we usually do a little lightning round at the end. Um, so we have a couple little lightning round questions. Uh- All right.
We're dying to know what the best restaurant meal you've had this fall is, most memorable. Oh, man. Um, I mean, I loved La Vaudure. I thought La Vaudure was incredible. Mm-hmm.
I had a burger at Peter Luger on Monday at the Burger League that was also a 10 in a very different way. Um, I would say those two are top, top of the...
I also went to Borgo, uh, a couple weeks ago, and thought that was a great meal. Um, but then some of my favorite meals are just the ones at places that I love.
I mean, I had a, a sort of f- a feast of a, an impromptu feast with my family at Via Carota last week- Mm-hmm... that was also great, so. I've still never been to Via Carota.
It's one of those ones that's- It's really good. Yeah, yeah... I mean, it's far away for me, right? Ridgewood, et cetera, but it's one of those ones I'm like, "Ah, someday I'll go." What's your go-to order there?
At, at Via Carota? Yeah. Um, if I'm, if I'm trying to be healthy, I'll go from a s- from a couple of salads to the branzino. Okay. Um, if I am
going to just enjoy myself, I'll add, they have this, they, the bean... It's always seasonal, but they always have an incredible beans dish. Mm.
Right now, it's a beans with, like, a kind of tomato broth of a kind with some sausage in it. It's incredible. Mm. Um, the cacio there I think is fantastic. So I'll throw a couple pastas in the mix. Mm-hmm.
And, um, and then, and then usually, usually I finish with the branzino. My mouth is watering.
[laughs] We always, I don't know, we podcast across the lunch hour, and I'm, I'm realizing this is a mistake if food- Oh, then, yeah [laughs]... is the topic of conversation.
Um, but- We should do some lu- we should do some lunch and podcast- Okay... episodes. Uh, that's [laughs] a fantastic idea. Some more lunch. If you wanna collaborate- [laughs]... I'm down. Um- Wait.
This is actually, this brings me back to the, the, the Supersonic, your content arm, and, like, the little interviews- Yeah... you've done on- Yeah... on Instagram.
The- these are very much lunch and podcasts where you, like, uh, you know, one with Kareem Rahma where he took you to, I forget, but it, you know, you get these people that- Take me to your spot... take me to your spot.
Yeah. It's a great series. Yeah. You, you- Thank you... you can't give up the content. You're a content guy to the death of you.
[laughs] You and Adam splitting the, uh, uh, Adam Faze splitting the seafood tower at Balthazar, like, lives rent-free in my brain. [laughs] Like [laughs] what else are you gonna do, right? Exactly.
Exactly.What is-- so what are your, yeah, what are your content plans? I know, you know, some of the, some of the series have, like, wound down.
Are you sort of in, like, a new sort of phase of the content arm and- Um, I love that you asked that question because you're right. We're sort of in-- we're in a transition in terms of our content plans. Mm-hmm.
Um, con-content is, is in my DNA. Is, is-- I so deeply believe in content- Mm-hmm... as a way to create value and utility and articulate brand, um, and also just kinda have fun.
Um, so I think moving forward, we have a couple things that we're excited about. One is Take Me to Your Spot is gonna come back. Nice. Good.
Um, let's call it season two is c- is coming of a, of a kind, is gonna, is gonna come back, and we're gonna resi-resume doing that. Um, we're retooling Supersonic. Mm-hmm.
Um, and we're retooling it to actually make it a little bit smaller. Hmm. Um,
I think when you-- if you look all the way back, Supersonic started as really so-- a place where we could openly sort of riff on what was to be Blackbird. Discuss Alpha. [laughs] Al- exactly. Exactly.
And I think over time, as the audience grew, we sort of had-- we f- we felt a little bit of a pull to make it a little bit more consumer, a little bit more down the middle.
Um, and I think that was ultimately a mistake that we made in terms of what Supersonic wanted to be. Hmm. And I-- actually kind of what I think is best on Substack.
So Supersonic is gonna come back, um, with a slightly different name, and it's just gonna be way inside. Hmm.
It's gonna be stuff that is, you know, just kinda on my mind or on Jimmy's mind or on somebody's mind at the team, on the team. Hopefully, we're gonna put some more kinda interviews in the mix. Those are fun.
Um, hopefully, we can use it to, uh, preview stuff like we did in the early days. Um, you know, just kinda riff.
Like I was-- this week, I was, um, uh, catching up on stuff, and I noticed that Red Lobster has a new CEO, and it's a CEO that used to be at P.F. Chang's, and, like, that's- Hmm... gonna come back. Mm-hmm.
So I think we would just kinda riff on, like, how would we bring Red Lobster back? Yeah. Yeah. Um, stuff like that, where we have to kinda get a little inside to do it the right way.
Um, so that's gonna be part of our plan. And then the third piece is in the app right now, you see a, um, a for me feed- Mm-hmm... um, which admittedly is a couple of taps into the experience.
We haven't yet brought it forward. Um, but that's gonna start to have both, uh, restaurant listings and restaurant-specific detail and also content that we're gonna pepper in. Okay.
Um, and so I think some of the things that you see us playing around with on email, some of the curation, um, will start to show up in that feed too, along with a bunch of other kinds of videos, um, that we're playing around with.
Influencers going to restaurants, um, creating content for us. Things like Take Me to Your Spot will start to populate there. So I think that you'll see over the next...
and then over the next quarter really, um, us sort of get back on our toes from a content standpoint. Nice. Um, hopefully, hopefully you'll enjoy it. Nice. It was good stuff. Yeah. I think- Yeah...
reading between the lines is sort of saying, like, the Substack ecosystem rewards people who are opinionated, seemly-seemingly. Um, and, you know, we mentioned, uh, Emily Sundberg earlier on the podcast.
She's somebody who's really done a great job having a distinct point of view- Oh, yeah... in her newsletter.
And I think this podcast is called Tasteland because the thesis of the podcast is that we're living in the taste economy, where the moat for the majority of companies will simply be taste. Totally agree.
Um, because of the way AI and to a certain extent cryptocurrencies have taken the cost of creation and monetization way down. Anyone can launch a token. Anyone can launch an AI agent. Um, but,
you know, there's always gonna be a curation layer on top of that saying what to pay attention to, attention being the scarce resource that, you know, nobody can make attention less scarce. It's impossible.
Attention is what makes us human. [laughs] It's, like, an essay I've been thinking about.
So anyway, like, long story short, um, people want you to be opinionated if you have taste, so it makes sense that that's the direction Supersonic is going.
And I definitely see Blackbird, even though you do have this really strong moat of infrastructure and restaurants sort of locked into that infrastructure, like, to me, you're also a taste-based company, which is why [laughs] we wanted to have you on Tasteland, even though this is not a food podcast.
It's a taste podcast. [laughs] It's taste all the way down. Yeah. I appreciate that. We're, we're trying to be, so I'm glad that it's coming through. Um, well, last question. Uh, do you cook for Thanksgiving?
Do you have any sort of traditions around it? Uh, what, what's your signature dish? Uh, this year we are cooking. Mm-hmm. Last year, my wife is from Houston, so we have, uh, Leventhal years, and then we have- Mm...
uh, Morgan years for family years. Mm-hmm. So last year we were in Houston, and we went to Blue Dorn, which is an awesome restaurant down there. This year, we are hosting, and we are cooking.
Um, here's the, here's the spicy tidbit. We are not cooking turkey. Mm. We are doing only spatchcock chicken. Ooh.
Um, I think the turkey thing, I mean, this is not that new a take anymore, but we-- no, no one in our family likes turkey. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Uh, so we're just not gonna do it.
You don't wanna, like, blow dry it to get that perfect crisp. [laughs] Um, yeah, this is a, you know, it's a take that's been floating around. I think- Yeah...
I also am, like, turkey's not my favorite, but then that kinda makes me excited to have it just this one time of year. Yeah. I lo-I love the turkey, but I've never c- I don't cook it. I, I haven't cooked it. Yeah.
I make sides. I mean, listen, we've done it in the past. Um, we've done, uh, um, uh- I've done a pork shoulder before instead of a turkey... what do we do? Yeah. We do honey baked ham. That's pretty good. Mm-hmm.
We go rogue with a honey baked ham sometimes, but more so on Easter. Yeah. Yeah. You'll find in our house we're gonna do chicken. We're gonna do a bunch of salads.
My mother-in-law has a sweet potato recipe that includes marshmallows on the top. Mm. We also make that. [laughs] Classic. Yeah. It's all about the sides. Yeah. I've, I've tried it. It's not my favorite. Marshmallows.
I can say the kids love that one. Mm-hmm. Are they getting down to the potato, or is it really just skimming off the top? You know, it's a great question.
[laughs] They like by mistake get into the potato layers sometimes. Right. Right. They're certainly aiming for the top. [laughs] Ooh, the last couple years I've done this, uh, miso mac and cheese recipe- Oh...
from Bon Appétit. Really good. That's cool. Really is really good. Sounds amazing. So anyways. Well, Ben, thank you so much for coming on. Yeah. This was such a good conversation. Absolutely. So much fun.
Thanks for having me. Well, this has been Tasteland. We will see you next week. [outro music] Honey. It tastes just like it costs. Ooh,
honey