WEBVTT 1 00:00:00.120 --> 00:00:10.360 [rock music] Honey. It tastes just like it costs. 2 00:00:11.740 --> 00:00:25.010 And my comparison for that was that Joni Mitchell's Both Sides Now is completism- Mm... and Joni Mitchell's A Case of You is completionism. I love The Mitchell Matrix. [laughs] The Mitchell Matrix. 3 00:00:25.080 --> 00:00:35.180 I think this is a great way to think about it. Um, I also think, like, the first lines of A Case of You are, like, some of the best lyrics, like, of all time. Just- How does it start again? 4 00:00:35.320 --> 00:00:44.970 I think it starts, "Just before our love got lost-" Mm. "You said I'm as constant as a northern star." Ah, yeah. That's great. And then she says, "Constantly in the darkness. Where's that at?" Mm-hmm. 5 00:00:44.970 --> 00:00:55.170 "If you want me, I'll be in the bar." Oh, that's so good. Yeah. I, I have to admit, that's... Like, that part was never sticky in my head. I just always think... Yeah, I'm not gonna try to sing, Jo. 6 00:00:55.320 --> 00:01:02.380 My voice is terrible, but, um- No, no. Do it. You want me to do it? Yeah. Okay. I want you to just distract everyone while I readjust- You want me to embarrass myself?... my light- Uh-huh... 7 00:01:02.390 --> 00:01:12.380 because I really don't like the way it is right now. Uh, well, I just like it when she goes, you know, "I could drink a case-" Stop. No. [laughs] You're right. See, I told you. It's a bad idea. That was not- Bad idea. 8 00:01:12.420 --> 00:01:22.480 Tom- I'm not a singer... we will need you to cut that. Um, cut that out. Please cut that out. [laughs] Uh, not a joke. Um- [laughs] Yeah, that is- Not kidding. [laughs] Not kidding. [laughs] Like, I'm not a singer. 9 00:01:22.580 --> 00:01:34.620 I, I played saxophone. [laughs] Let's, uh... We should go to karaoke sometime. Yes. We should do Tasteland karaoke. I would love to. Well- Do you have a karaoke song? I do. Um, I do. What do you think it is? 10 00:01:36.160 --> 00:01:47.600 There's no... nothing to go on here. What do you think my karaoke song is? No, this is better. I'm gonna pull something from the ether. I'm a Believer by Smash Mouth. No. [laughs] No. No, it's not that. 11 00:01:47.720 --> 00:01:56.960 It is, um, Dancing in the Dark by Bruce Springsteen. Okay. That actually... That's Ben's... one of Ben's songs. Uh, it's a, it's a banger. It's a classic. Um- What do you think mine is? 12 00:01:57.640 --> 00:02:11.460 Okay, I'm also gonna get this [laughs] totally wrong. Um, uh, I'm gonna g- I, I don't think of it it's this, but I think this would be a nice one for you, uh- Okay... which is Manhattan by Cat Power. 13 00:02:12.420 --> 00:02:21.989 Oh, that's very flattering. Mm-hmm. It's actually You're So Vain by Carly Simon. That's... Okay, that's, that's actually much more on brand. That's perfect. I'm not gonna sing. No. [laughs] I figured. 14 00:02:21.989 --> 00:02:32.220 I let you fall on your face. You, you, you led me right into the mud with that one. Yeah. Yeah. Well, that's my job. That is. That is your job. Second mic. Into the, into the dirt. First mic, mud mic. 15 00:02:32.260 --> 00:02:40.619 Second mic- [laughs]... bad influence mic. Wait, who's the first mic? Who's the first mic? You. Oh. Oh, okay. Yeah. Well, I don't know about that. I have justice privilege on this podcast. [laughs] Yeah. 16 00:02:40.660 --> 00:02:52.300 That's a lot of responsibility to, to be first mic. Heavy is the head that wears the crown. [laughs] Heavy, heavy is the head that wears the Sony, the $90 Sony headphones. Um, I'm thinking about Instagram Reels. 17 00:02:52.380 --> 00:03:01.480 We talked about Instagram Reels a couple times ago. Why? 'Cause I spend... I, actually I don't wanna talk screen time. Um- You stop doing that... 18 00:03:01.500 --> 00:03:09.840 there's one that is stuck in my head right now, that I hate, and it's one of the ones I don't follow and I choose not to follow, but I haven't yet blocked him. Actually, I... You know who I did block? 19 00:03:10.200 --> 00:03:24.510 Are you familiar with Tony P? Yeah, I think so. Tony P in DC. Mm. A day in my life as a 25-year-old bachelor in Washington, DC. Okay. Well, I remember that- Yeah... that crossover. I had to block him. Um- [laughs]... 20 00:03:24.510 --> 00:03:30.640 I... It was making me mad. I don't know. It's like this... [sighs] It's so... 21 00:03:30.800 --> 00:03:37.540 Like, his whole thing is that he, like, wants to be a dad, that he's, like, a dad in training, that he's, like, f- an old soul, that he's like 40 years old. 22 00:03:37.640 --> 00:03:47.640 Um, and at first I thought it was kind of like- Does he have a girlfriend? He has had at points, you know, when he makes his- Okay. Again, revealed preferences is gonna be a big theme on this podcast. 23 00:03:47.660 --> 00:03:57.260 He doesn't wanna be a dad. Revealed preferences. What do you... I've never heard that phrase. I've literally said it on, like, every single episode. Okay. Well, I haven't [laughs] been listening to this podcast. I've... 24 00:03:57.360 --> 00:04:09.640 I just, I just talk on it. Well, I listen multiple times so that I can improve. Yeah. But that's fine. Um, second mic things. Okay. Wow, justice privilege once again. So, I mean, it's an economic thing. Like, 25 00:04:10.720 --> 00:04:16.380 you ask consumers, "What do you care about?" They might say one thing in a survey, but the stuff that they buy- Oh, yeah... is, like, totally different. 26 00:04:16.420 --> 00:04:28.660 So they'll say like, "I eat healthy," but then all they buy is frozen pizza. Mm-hmm. Me. Um, so yeah. It's like when people are like, "I really wanna have... Um, I hate drama. 27 00:04:28.780 --> 00:04:35.820 I hate drama in relationships," but then they repeatedly date people who are, like, kind of unhinged. Oh, yeah. 28 00:04:36.240 --> 00:04:45.040 So people have, like, carried over this into, like, other stuff, or they're like, "I just wanna settle down and have a family," but they're 40 years old and they date 23-year-olds- Mm-hmm... 29 00:04:45.050 --> 00:04:58.040 who clearly do not wanna be mothers yet. So that's, like... I think it's- Self-gaslighting... Well, it's self-delusion. Yeah. It's like the nar- We tell ourselves stories in order to live. [laughs] Um, 30 00:04:59.020 --> 00:05:07.520 you know, as somebody like that, it's like, "Oh, I wanna be a father," but are you? But- Are you dating- But he's a 25-year-old bachelor in DC... your child's mother? Are you looking for your child's mother? Yeah. Yeah. 31 00:05:07.620 --> 00:05:19.880 I mean, that's fine. I mean, I also am like, you can, you can do dad things and not be a dad. That's totally fine. I mean, you don't own those concepts, but does seem like a little bit of a, 32 00:05:21.240 --> 00:05:27.280 a gap between the self- Yeah... story and the reality. Tony P, we don't believe you. I don't think you wanna be a dad. 33 00:05:27.360 --> 00:05:41.940 Um, our guest is here, our very first guest here on the Tasteland podcast, um, Casey Lewis, author of the After School newsletter and the new After School podcast, Podcast Class of Summer 2024. 34 00:05:42.060 --> 00:05:54.640 Um, I've had her on the Creator Spotlight podcast and newsletter six months ago or so. Casey rules, one of my favorite newsletters. Let's, uh, let's chat. What's up, Casey? Hey, guys. Hey, Casey. Hey, Casey. 35 00:05:54.940 --> 00:06:06.260 I just saw... I to- If you, if you saw me laughing, I just saw a tweet that says, in quotes, "I want grandkid- kids... I want grandkids," and then the response is, "Best I can do is a newsletter"- Mm... 36 00:06:06.270 --> 00:06:17.332 which made me LOL 'cause, yeah. That's kind of a... Yeah. [laughs] Well, Casey- Hey... how's it going? It's been like six months- Good... since we last- Yes... podded.Yes. I'm good. How are you? 37 00:06:17.412 --> 00:06:28.472 Congratulations, you guys. I, I, what a dream team, you two. Mm-hmm. What a dream team having you here too. I mean, like- [laughs]... I was just saying, the, the, the podcast [laughs] I need to stop saying this. 38 00:06:28.872 --> 00:06:41.932 The podca- [laughs] the podcast class of summer 2024. [laughs] Um- We'll see who graduates in four years. Yeah. It's never too late to start a podcast, right? Yes. I do agree. To start a podcast, to start a newsletter, 39 00:06:43.032 --> 00:06:52.232 all of it. Mm-hmm. Um, how... So when I talked to you like six months ago, you had just quit your job to do the newsletter full-time. This was... 40 00:06:52.272 --> 00:07:02.901 Yeah, I talk, think I talked to you in February, newsletter came out in March, something like that. Yeah. Has it been... How- how's it been... Is, is it a success? How do you feel? You know, it's funny. 41 00:07:03.472 --> 00:07:11.292 I, I was so excited to have all this time to sort... You know, 'cause I, my job was not a nine-to-five. It was like pr- you know, like any job. 42 00:07:11.652 --> 00:07:24.832 But, so I felt like I was gonna have all this time and all of this brain space, and, um, the same week that m- was my last day at work, I also moved and got a puppy. [laughs] And so I was... 43 00:07:24.872 --> 00:07:35.722 It was honestly like the most stressful point of my life. It, which was worse. It, it, it, it felt bad because I was leaving what was a, a wonderful but stressful job. Mm-hmm. 44 00:07:35.732 --> 00:07:39.552 And I was like, "My life is gonna be stress-free," and then it ended up being so much more stressful. 45 00:07:39.942 --> 00:07:49.492 And so I f- kind of felt a bit like a failure because I was not as productive as I wanted to be for a couple of months there. Um, but the, the puppy is settling in. 46 00:07:49.832 --> 00:07:59.282 The boxes are, uh, gone, and so I'm feeling pr- w- productive again. Oh, congratulations. I didn't notice- Thank you... any drop-off in the newsletter [laughs] for what it's worth. 47 00:08:00.092 --> 00:08:10.812 Y- I tried really hard not to, but, like, the moving stuff is just the most boring thing to talk about, but also, like, one of those life, really derails the life. Yeah. Yeah. What kind of puppy do you have? 48 00:08:11.592 --> 00:08:21.372 Well, it's funny that you should ask. [laughs] So curious. 'Cause he's right here. [gasps] Oh my goodness. That's a big- This is Leo... that's like a dog. That's not a puppy. Yeah. That's a dog. Yeah. 49 00:08:21.552 --> 00:08:31.582 He's a, he's really good, but man, he's, um, he's been a handful. He, we thought that he was gonna be, um, like two to three. Mm-hmm. And he's more like one. Mm-hmm. 50 00:08:31.692 --> 00:08:42.632 And so has like tons of energy, and, um, just needed to be walked pretty much constantly for the first- Is he a Pittie Lab mix? So we just got his DNA test. He looks like a Pittie Lab. Mm. 51 00:08:42.752 --> 00:08:55.952 And I grew up with Labs, and so I, I hoped that he was a Pittie Lab, but he is 100% Pittie. Aw. And the same kind of Pittie. Like, he- Mm... you know, there's, like, American Bully, there's, like, all kinds of Pitties. 52 00:08:56.452 --> 00:09:06.392 Um, he's 100%, um, Pit Bull Terrier. Such a sweetie. Thank you. [laughs] Um, so one more thing about catching up on the newsletter. When I talked to you- Yeah... you had, 53 00:09:07.352 --> 00:09:19.272 uh, 40,000 subscribers and 2,000 paid subscribers. Have, h- are the numbers, numbers healthy? Numbers gone up? [laughs] The numbers have gone up. However, I've gotten a little more aggressive about purging. Mm. Mm-hmm. 54 00:09:19.572 --> 00:09:28.892 So I don't know how often you guys do this, but probably, like, once a month, I'll sort of dive into my open rate and get... 55 00:09:28.932 --> 00:09:37.582 You know, the, I, specifically with Substack it seems like, and you guys don't have this problem because neither of you are on Sub- Substack, but like- We're both on Beehiiv. Yeah. Which is pretty cool. 56 00:09:37.582 --> 00:09:45.262 We're both on Beehiiv, Company Line, but- Yeah... we are gonna talk about Substack later. [laughs] Yes. In any spotlight. We'll have to talk about their... [laughs] But there's, there... I, I get... 57 00:09:45.752 --> 00:09:55.252 It's hard to tell if the quality of subscribers that come through the Substa- Sub- Substack app are actu- Like, are they just checking a box, and then they're sudden... Like, I don't know. 58 00:09:55.312 --> 00:10:05.512 I just, so I try to, like, really stay on top of my open rate. So all that's to say, I'm at 48. Um, so that's s- some growth. Well, has the- I guess part- But I mean, the number that matters is the premium number. 59 00:10:05.592 --> 00:10:13.092 Are, are pe- are more people paying you to write your newsletter? Oh, yes. I am seeing, I am see- seeing the premium number go up. Mm. Um, which is i- always exciting. 60 00:10:13.212 --> 00:10:21.732 Though it's never as, like, high as I, like, as, as the amount of, like, time, blood, sweat, and tears go into it. [laughs] Yeah. I'm always like, "Damn it." 61 00:10:22.232 --> 00:10:30.982 But, um, there's so many s- there's so many newsletters at this point that it's like, I get it. Okay. So we should talk about this. Emily Sundberg's essay- Yeah. Yes... 62 00:10:30.992 --> 00:10:40.312 from like a week ago now, uh, The Machine in the Garden. Mm-hmm. I think it's, you know, it's been reverberating, reverberating around the newsletter world. 63 00:10:40.632 --> 00:10:48.812 Um, many newsletters ha- that have been sent that are takes on this newsletter. Um, the gist, I don't know, I don't know if there's one gist. 64 00:10:48.872 --> 00:11:01.472 Kind of the gist though is that there's too many newsletters that aren't good enough, where people are expecting, um, you know- Oh... people to pay for 10 links of things they think they should buy. My- Right? 65 00:11:01.772 --> 00:11:11.552 Mm, my read's a little bit different. Yeah. Like, I think... I mean, that is one interpretation, for sure. And also, I talked to Emily yesterday and told her- Yeah... "We're gonna talk about it on the podcast. 66 00:11:11.592 --> 00:11:15.302 Is there anything that you wanna add about the response?" And then she- Yeah... 67 00:11:15.332 --> 00:11:27.092 last night's Feed me was, like, a voice memo from her where she talks about how, um, like a previous piece that she wrote for New York Magazine about shoppy shops, this piece was a little bit of an ink blot test of what people want to see. 68 00:11:27.222 --> 00:11:27.422 Mm-hmm. 69 00:11:27.422 --> 00:11:42.972 And I think there is one interpretation that's like, um, Substack has created this ecosystem where it's so easy to toggle on subscriptions and ask people to pay for your writing without deeply considering whether what you're writing is worth paying for. 70 00:11:43.032 --> 00:11:44.611 That's one interpretation. Interesting. Yeah. 71 00:11:44.652 --> 00:11:55.512 To me, it's more about the context collapse that happens in an ecosystem like Substack, where some people are using it in a professional way and some people are using it as hobbyists. Yeah. 72 00:11:55.522 --> 00:12:04.712 But everyone is using the same tools, and everyone is, um, you know, to attach a term to it, a writer. Mm. Yeah. And so... 73 00:12:05.892 --> 00:12:27.656 Well, and, and this really, like, strikes at, like, why Francis and I started the podcast, because I think, you know, I have a slide in a res- recent presentation I did that, where I call this the creator economy trap.Which is everyone has to promote their hobby in the same way that they promote their business because of the amount of noise in- Mm-hmm... 74 00:12:27.696 --> 00:12:34.946 the attention economy and the creator economy, which exists, you know, they're the same. They're just two layers of the same- Mm-hmm... information ecosystem. 75 00:12:35.736 --> 00:12:46.596 Um, but if you, if your, like, Substack is your hobby, but you are marketing it in the same way you would market a business, people start to have expectations of you- Mm-hmm. 76 00:12:46.696 --> 00:12:50.745 - where they view themselves as your customer, especially if they're paying for it. Mm-hmm. 77 00:12:50.856 --> 00:13:03.776 And I don't know that some of these platforms have done enough to address that, these different use cases, because everyone's getting it and you're experiencing it all on the same app feed. Mm-hmm. 78 00:13:03.956 --> 00:13:17.145 And I think the context collapse is really, to me, the most salient part. Not even the quality of the writing, but, like, how are people viewing their writing? Like, what is their intention- Well, I think so-... 79 00:13:17.156 --> 00:13:25.006 with the writing... one thing on the context collapse is Rachel Karten- Yeah... then had a great response as a note, uh, who writes... She writes The Link in Bio Newsletter, another great newsletter. 80 00:13:25.556 --> 00:13:30.056 Um, she [chuckles] wrote a Substack note about it that I think kinda captures what you're saying. 81 00:13:30.096 --> 00:13:44.736 That, like, the problem is that on Substack, you know, Substack's become a social media app, so then, like, when you're seeing somebody's newsletter out of context of, like, you subscribed to their newsletter and it's in your inbox, and you're actually seeing it, like, on, like, the Substack notes feed, Reblog. 82 00:13:44.776 --> 00:13:49.576 Uh-huh. Like, then that's, like, that's just wrong. Like, it's not meant to be seen that way. 83 00:13:49.616 --> 00:13:57.276 You're meant to see it in the context of, like, you know, if somebody is sending two essays a week and then one, like, links roundup, like, the links roundup- Mm-hmm... 84 00:13:57.346 --> 00:14:01.266 then has meaning in that it's, like, that person's curated take. Mm-hmm. 85 00:14:01.336 --> 00:14:10.816 Whereas when you're seeing three links roundups from three different people, two of whom you don't follow, in your feed at once, then it's like, then it's really devalued. Yeah. 86 00:14:11.376 --> 00:14:23.476 I, I think the interesting thing about all of this, I didn't realize that many people were using the Substack app in this way, and especially getting content that they don't subscribe to. Mm-hmm. 87 00:14:23.496 --> 00:14:35.836 Like, and I, I personally don't use it in that way. So I, I guess I'm curious about you guys as Beehive writers. Do you feel, do you feel... How, how do you think about the Substack app? 88 00:14:35.876 --> 00:14:47.116 Do you think it is as important as... So, uh, d- did you guys read the Jess, Jess Graves, uh, essay about edfluency? No. And if it- What's edfluencing? It, it... 89 00:14:47.396 --> 00:14:58.276 My, my, like, brain immediately, 'cause my mom is an educator, goes to, like, is this a, is this e- e- you know, edutainment? But no. Mm. This is, um, an, uh, editor meets influencer. 90 00:14:59.166 --> 00:15:08.275 And she has this really interesting article that went sort of viral, like Emily's, and Emily covered it as well. And I thought her take was interesting. 91 00:15:08.796 --> 00:15:19.116 And, um, I will say Jess, um, published this article, uh, publicly, and then it started to create so much conversation that then she paywa- paywalled the whole thing. Smart. 92 00:15:19.136 --> 00:15:31.156 Which I thought was super interesting and smart, obviously. Um, but, but just, uh, her, her thought, her point of view was, um, you know, she, uh, grew... Uh, she came up, like, in agency world. 93 00:15:31.416 --> 00:15:41.406 She was an early days fashion influencer. She got on Substack early. Early in terms of relative to other fashion Substackers. Mm-hmm. 94 00:15:41.416 --> 00:15:52.946 And I, I don't know that you guys are deeply entrenched in the fashion Substack subset, nor am I, but I... There is one- I follow, like, Laura Riley. Yes. Yes. Mm-hmm. Well, I... But... 95 00:15:52.956 --> 00:15:58.276 And I feel like Laura is sort of like w- like, she has [chuckles] her own thing to me. Mm-hmm. Like, what she's doing. 96 00:15:58.576 --> 00:16:08.446 But there's a lot of, there's a lot of TikTokers and infl- fashion TikTokers and fashion influencers who, uh, typical fashion influencers- Mm-hmm... who have started expanding onto Substack. Mm-hmm. 97 00:16:08.456 --> 00:16:18.236 Which is really interesting to see someone who mostly is a, you know, aggregates- A video... yeah, video or photo- Mm-hmm... trying to translate to Substack. 98 00:16:18.996 --> 00:16:29.996 Uh, so Jess's point was, um, it was very much like, um, almost like Substack, fashion Substack hierarchy. Um, you know, there's, like, infighting a little bit she touched on. 99 00:16:30.296 --> 00:16:41.296 There's backlash when these influencers get so big that then they are now wearing only The Row, but they used to, you know, maybe recommend H&M. And then it's, like, so many people. Just some really interesting... Yeah. 100 00:16:41.306 --> 00:16:53.286 Mm. But, but her, her essay i- initially struck me as, like, I didn't realize that s- that people viewed Substack as such a, you know... I, I think about it as sort of like Blogger back in the day. Mm. 101 00:16:53.316 --> 00:17:02.726 Which, like, Francis, as you know, I had a vlog [laughs] on Blogger back in the day. But it was just merely a platform, right? Like, it, there was a little, like- It was a tool... there were... Yeah, it was a tool. 102 00:17:02.806 --> 00:17:10.276 There were blog rolls- Yeah... that, that- Like, not a platform... you know. Yeah. Yeah. But it wasn't a... It, sorry, it wasn't a platform. It was merely a place... 103 00:17:10.286 --> 00:17:20.916 It, it, it gave you the tools to publish your work, and that's very much how I view Substack and always have, is like, it is like Mailchimp in many ways. Yeah. Um, it's better than Mailchimp in many ways, but it's, it... 104 00:17:21.076 --> 00:17:35.436 So the, the fact that there's this sort of Substack ecosystem, I, I'm, I have a hard time understanding, like, how big it is and how valid it is as an ecosystem. And are we giving Substack too much credit for what it... 105 00:17:35.456 --> 00:17:44.736 And I'm curious with you guys- Yeah... being on Beehive- Well, I think, I mean-... how you feel about that. Yeah, I think... 'Cause Beehive, I, I think of Beehive and, like, other things like Ghost as, like- Yeah... 106 00:17:44.776 --> 00:17:52.796 you know, a tool. Whereas Substack is, like, decidedly both a social media platform and a media company itself, which is, like- Yeah... partially in the m- in how Substack monetizes, right? 107 00:17:52.856 --> 00:18:02.976 Like, they take a 10% cut of your paid subscriptions. So it's almost like you are a, like, like... I, I forget if... I, I hadn't talked to Ryan Broderick yet when I interviewed you, but he had this great thing. 108 00:18:02.996 --> 00:18:09.976 I was like, "What, what's a creator?" And he said, "It's an Uber driver for posts." Where that's what it is on Substack- [laughs]... because of that business model. Um- Yeah... 109 00:18:09.996 --> 00:18:19.536 and then Substack itself is, like, dude, like, every s- writer on Substack, because of that payment model, is almost, like, not quite a freelance writer for Substack the media company, but you're not not. Yeah. Right? 110 00:18:19.636 --> 00:18:29.818 Whereas, like, other things, like Beehive, like Ghost, these other platforms that, like, ar- don't have this, like, walled appSocial media platform, like those are decidedly tools, right? Yeah. 111 00:18:29.838 --> 00:18:36.738 Like I don't think of myself as... I mean, I'm paid by Beehive, so- [laughs]... I guess I am a Beehiver, but I don't think of myself as like a Beehive writer. Oh, yeah, you are. Yeah. Yeah. 112 00:18:36.748 --> 00:18:41.258 In the way that there's a subset. You're especially a Beehiver. Yeah. But yeah. But, and, and I- But it's, it's different... 113 00:18:41.348 --> 00:18:55.828 yeah, I was actually struck this, in my morning scroll in bed, like bleary-eyed this morning, um, Marie Claire posted a, a story that was like, um, sub- like the, the designer behind Substack's favorite loafers is, is coming for your closet. 114 00:18:56.088 --> 00:19:10.598 Yeah. And I, I thought as a, a headline in a, a women's fashion magazine, how, how interesting that was that, you know, it, and when you read it, if you don't know, like Substack's- Well, I actually, so I just bought-... 115 00:19:10.598 --> 00:19:19.028 favorite loafer... um, John Ganz's new book, When the Clock Broke, and I was like reading the inside jacket cover, uh, what's the name of his newsletter again? I don't know. 116 00:19:19.508 --> 00:19:26.808 Uh, okay, I forget what it is, but he- [laughs]... it's, uh, it says, "He writes the," whatever the name of his newsletter is, "for Substack." 117 00:19:27.328 --> 00:19:33.888 Didn't say on, it said that he writes it for Substack in the cover, the jacket cover of the book. Um, okay. Another thing- Whoa... 118 00:19:34.138 --> 00:19:43.908 I wanna, I wanna bring in though too, um, Julia Al- Alexander, who writes Posting Nexus, which she says is neither a blog or a newsletter. It's on Ghost [laughs] I'm bringing up third and fourth [inaudible] here. 119 00:19:43.918 --> 00:19:52.778 [laughs] She had this article yesterday, I think, a couple days ago, called People Aren't Posting: What Happens When People Revolt Against Social Media Just Becoming Media. 120 00:19:52.808 --> 00:20:02.748 And she's like starts it referencing this Wall Street Journal piece that like I for- I, I didn't read the actual stats in it, but like these stats that prove like people aren't posting as much as they used to. 121 00:20:03.068 --> 00:20:09.098 Um, and she says, "The problem is that apps like Instagram," which I think applies to, uh, Substack here too, "the problem is that apps-" Mm-hmm... 122 00:20:09.098 --> 00:20:17.428 "like Instagram are split into two separate platforms for two separate groups of people, a social connector and an entertainment media center. 123 00:20:17.468 --> 00:20:25.328 The goal is to balance incentive, the goal for the company is to balance incentive enough for the latter to ensure that there is enough fodder for the former." 124 00:20:25.608 --> 00:20:35.568 Um, and then she also says, last quote, uh, "It got me thinking, how do you encourage people to post while expanding the reach of their circle? You lean away from the social component and towards the media side. 125 00:20:36.128 --> 00:20:43.548 Friends morph into audiences. Platforms for connecting are no longer designed for relationships. They're designed as media centers." 126 00:20:43.868 --> 00:20:54.168 Whereas I, I think what we're talking about with Substack designed as a media center becoming a platform for relationships. Hmm. That's super interesting. Super interesting. 127 00:20:54.228 --> 00:21:06.868 All right, so your new podcast came out yesterday. I listened to it. Uh, you had two guests. One was this micro influencer, Jenny Duan, um, and then the other was like the VP of Global Consumer Marketing for Pinterest. 128 00:21:07.028 --> 00:21:13.048 Uh- Yeah... which great contrast. But like I was curious, who, who is Jenny Duan? How did you find her? 129 00:21:13.088 --> 00:21:23.028 Like I was looking her up and it's like, you know, she has like 6,000 on TikTok, a million likes, but like, so like who is this person? Well, she is an After School reader. 130 00:21:23.228 --> 00:21:25.928 [laughs] And she emailed me earlier this summer. 131 00:21:26.088 --> 00:21:45.328 And then in thinking about who I could have on to like sort of, I wanted someone who was embedded in TikTok and understood haul talk without being so embedded that they were, you know, capital C Creator. 132 00:21:45.677 --> 00:22:00.228 Mm-hmm. You know? I wanted someone who like understood the landscape a bit, and so she's like a super, I mean, she's a philosophy computer science major. She is a right now a finance intern in New York. 133 00:22:00.308 --> 00:22:06.948 She walked in wearing like the cool, like a white floaty maxi skirt. Like she, she had pink hair. Like she's so cool. 134 00:22:07.028 --> 00:22:13.918 But I felt like she was someone who sort of like showed that ca- that Gen Z contrast of like you can be this and this and this. Mm-hmm. 135 00:22:14.388 --> 00:22:24.448 Um, and I, I think micro influencers have a good perspective because, again, they're not like so up there that they're are media, they're media trained and- They're more self-aware. Yeah, exactly. 136 00:22:24.508 --> 00:22:34.468 And they, I, I wanted someone who wasn't also, um, wanting, like when there's too much pressure to get brand deals or, you know, like I, I didn't, I wanted someone who could speak candidly. 137 00:22:34.948 --> 00:22:43.848 Um, so yeah, she was cool, right? Yeah. No, that, that was good. Um, one thing, you were talking about like these like back to schools, the, the haul talk, which is like- Yes... so foreign to me. 138 00:22:43.908 --> 00:22:52.908 I mean, I, I try- [laughs]... to stay off TikTok. Um, but yeah, what, this is something you've been writing about a lot too in, in recent weeks in After School. What is haul talk? 139 00:22:52.948 --> 00:23:03.518 What are you, what are you learning from haul talk? Yeah. So there are, haul talk always exists, and it existed on YouTube before. Well, I mean, it, it, hauls, shopping hauls- Yeah. Well, uh, when you say always-... 140 00:23:03.518 --> 00:23:13.768 exists on YouTube... like how long ago is always? Sorry to interrupt. Uh, so I'm not a YouTube... I, I, I have not spent a significant amount of time on YouTube, but I think for y- e- ages. 141 00:23:14.188 --> 00:23:26.508 As long as beauty and fashion YouTubers have existed, I think that hauls have been popular content. Um, YouTube is kind of a blind spot for me. It's something that I want to course correct, but it's such a 142 00:23:27.468 --> 00:23:36.578 monster that I just, you know, TikTok to me feels a little bit more accessible. Um, but so hauls are, you know, I got this from Abercrombie. Yeah. I got this from Hollister. 143 00:23:37.068 --> 00:23:45.708 And, um, the big moments around hauls are back to school and Christmas, where people are talking about what they, you know, what they got from Santa. 144 00:23:46.268 --> 00:24:07.838 And, um, it's just I, I love it because it's such a peek into what people are buying, and, um, just in terms of like my favorite thing is, you know, literally just it's gonna be rainy this weekend, and I'm going, my plan is to spend Saturday and Sunday watching back to school hauls, and sort of crunching the most popular, uh, product, you know, figuring out- Yeah... 145 00:24:07.848 --> 00:24:12.248 what are the thru- through, you know, what are, what comes up again and again. And it's always interesting to see. 146 00:24:12.688 --> 00:24:24.553 So one of the craziest things that I've seen so far is, um, how popular tube tops are, but for back to school.Like, I couldn't wear a tube top to back to school. Mm-hmm. 147 00:24:24.553 --> 00:24:32.004 It's crazy, these, like, stretchy little tube tops, and they're wearing them with, like, baggy jeans or baggy sweats even. 148 00:24:32.124 --> 00:24:40.004 Um, but you know, these things which I, I've been doing this now for three years, and so to see even differences from last year are fascinating to me. 149 00:24:40.084 --> 00:24:49.014 And it, anot- one aspect that's fascinating to me is, like, I grew up in rural Missouri. The trends reached me... I think, Francis, you and I maybe talked about this. Yeah. 150 00:24:49.044 --> 00:24:58.924 The trends reached me w- much later than they hit the kids in New York, you know? It's like I got my trends via MTV or teen magazines. And 151 00:24:59.944 --> 00:25:10.944 to see the trend cycle collapse in a way that, like, kids in rural Missouri are seeing the, are buying the very same things as, like, kids in New York to- Mm... I mean, not quite, but you know, close enough. 152 00:25:10.984 --> 00:25:17.184 Well, wait, I'm curious. It's like- So when you t- uh, like, these kids, like, is there, like... I don't know. Are they mostly, like, college age, high school? 153 00:25:17.304 --> 00:25:25.564 Is, do you think there's, like, a, a location where they mostly are? Is it just kind of like all over the states? No. But yeah, what's- Literally all-... who are these people? Yeah, it's all over. 154 00:25:25.604 --> 00:25:36.114 It's literally all over. And right now, like, one of the most famous Tik- uh, like, haul girls is this girl, Dimitra. She lives in New Jersey. She's just, like, a New Jersey teen. Mm-hmm. 155 00:25:36.144 --> 00:25:44.664 The Wall Street Journal just profiled her. And it's- Wow... like she's not a household name. Like, no one knows who she is except for teenage girls, and now The Wall Street Journal. 156 00:25:45.144 --> 00:25:57.164 And she just, the, she's able to sell stuff out, and but her wardrobe is so simple. She's, like, wearing low-rise jeans from PacSun and baby tees from Brandy Melville. And you're like, "This is a style icon?" 157 00:25:57.484 --> 00:26:02.384 Not that her style is bad, but it's like- Mm... you know, um, I don't mean to bully a teen. 158 00:26:02.464 --> 00:26:12.274 [laughs] She's so cool, but, like, uh, you know, it's just sort of remarkable that it's, like, this is, like, who everyone is aspiring to be when it seems so simple. It's not innovative, it's relatable. Exactly. Exactly. 159 00:26:12.284 --> 00:26:26.704 But in previous influencer cycles, people have gravitated towards the people who are in- like, innovating. Like, I mean, Tavi is an example- Yes... of that. Um, Leandra Medine. Yes, yeah. Um, 160 00:26:27.694 --> 00:26:38.404 and then we, I think we happen to be in a cycle right now where people are especially looking for, like, almost, like, the median. Yeah. But you have to stand out, you know? Yeah. We've talked about this with startups. 161 00:26:38.464 --> 00:26:43.744 It's like you have to stand out enough to break out of the noise. 162 00:26:44.244 --> 00:26:53.484 Um, but then the people that break out, um, you know, whether it's, like, an Alex Cooper, like Alex Earl, even Emma Chamberlain back in the day, although I think she's- Yeah... 163 00:26:53.714 --> 00:27:06.324 become, I think she's become a lot more into really personal style- Yeah... um, and values. Like, they break out of the pack, but they're kind of indistinguishable from their audience. Yeah. 164 00:27:06.444 --> 00:27:21.814 And I think that that dynamic has to, by nature of how paradoxical it is, be short-lived, where either the tide will not turn on that particular person, but that person will have to innovate- Mm... 165 00:27:21.874 --> 00:27:34.944 to maintain their audience, or, um, the next influencer cycle will, s- kind of the pendulum will swing back to people who are breaking out of the pack because they're not the median. They're an outlier in some way. Yeah. 166 00:27:34.994 --> 00:27:48.724 Yeah. Well, I, I had a conversation yesterday about clicks and counterculture and what does that look like in 2024 for teenagers. But it makes me think of, you know, startups or influencers or high school kids. 167 00:27:49.044 --> 00:28:01.524 It's all the same, where you, you want, you want to blend in enough- Mm-hmm... but you need to stand out at the same time. You can't be too weird, because then that is divisive. 168 00:28:01.764 --> 00:28:15.034 What is counterculture- It's like that's-... for, like, for kids, for k- [laughs] for kids these days? Yeah. I, so I th- I, I honestly don't... Like, for me, I'm like, is counterculture... My best guess is- Yeah... 169 00:28:15.144 --> 00:28:26.664 is counterculture the kids who are, like, the n- the n- kids who are foregoing technology altogether? That's what I would think. So yeah, I think that that's the be- because it's like, what else could counterculture be? 170 00:28:26.784 --> 00:28:35.604 I mean, surely there are still, like, the punk kids and the goth kids. But, like, for truly counterculture- But goth is a Pinterest tag. Right, exactly. You know, like, I listened to the episode too. 171 00:28:35.654 --> 00:28:40.143 It's like it's been fully subsumed by the mainstream if it's a Pinterest tag. The old baddies, Daisy. [laughs] Yeah. Yeah. 172 00:28:40.204 --> 00:28:48.664 [laughs] They, Jenny kept using the word aesthetic, which, which I thought was, uh, was really funny, um, I feel, 'cause I feel like aesthetic- Yes... that I didn't use that when I was in high school. 173 00:28:48.764 --> 00:28:55.564 Maybe I did in college. Yeah. Uh, and I looked up, I looked up the Google Trend, uh, for aesthetic, and it's- Oh, it's huge. 174 00:28:55.684 --> 00:29:02.914 Well, but it was, it was basically flat until around the time I remember it coming about, like, 2014. It starts ticking up- Okay... but then it peaks- Yeah... 175 00:29:02.984 --> 00:29:13.244 uh, September 2020 at, like, the 100% in, like, kind of a quick rise. Interesting. And now it's- Yeah... back down to, like, 25%. But the way she kept using the word aesthetic, I think is like- Yeah... 176 00:29:13.404 --> 00:29:21.904 uh, uh, kids didn't talk like that when I was- No. I mean, she's not in high school, but when I was in high school, kids didn't talk... We did in college, I guess, but. Yeah. I, I think you're... 177 00:29:22.204 --> 00:29:29.804 Around the time that all of the cores, you know- Mm. Yeah... cottagecore, coquette core, like, when... And that's ar- just before I started After School. 178 00:29:29.824 --> 00:29:37.784 But that's sort of what inspired me to start a newsletter, is I was seeing just so many trend head- headlines. Explore the core. And yeah. 179 00:29:37.824 --> 00:29:45.524 And I wa- I was trying to understand, like, what is all, what is, what to make of it, you know? [laughs] Like, what does it all mean? And this was before I was on TikTok. 180 00:29:45.884 --> 00:29:55.734 And so just fascinated by this sort of rise, and honestly the use of a- aesthetic among young people in terms of, like, I have to find my aesthetic, or, like, what is my aesthetic? 181 00:29:56.144 --> 00:30:05.794 And I think that's why Pinterest has become so popular with Gen Z- Mm... because they're trying to understand. And, like, for us, it was like, "What is my style?" You know? It- Mm-hmm... 182 00:30:06.024 --> 00:30:14.584 but aesthetic for them, it's like, it's not just what is their style. It's tied into their whole, like, who am I? Yeah. This- Yeah... 183 00:30:14.644 --> 00:30:26.924 so this reminds me, I saw s, uh, um, I saw, like, a quote tweeted, you know, quote-unquote "meme" on, on Twitter the other day that was like, it was just, like, a pink vape with, uh, I think My Year of Rest and Relaxation, the book, like, uh, over it. 184 00:30:26.934 --> 00:30:34.004 [laughs] And I, the quote tweet was just like, "This isn't even a meme anymore." Like, this is just, like, a, a- an identity signifier. Like, memes don't even exist. 185 00:30:34.033 --> 00:30:43.030 [laughs] It's just, it's just these, like, aesthetic things. Which when we were talking, Daisy, the other episode about, like, the Anthony Bourdain starter packs and how it's just like-You know, it's... I don't know. 186 00:30:43.160 --> 00:30:51.880 What's the difference, do you think, between aesthetic and style then? Like, you're, you're kind of saying that it's more about, like, a full identity, but then that's making me think of, like, when I was in... 187 00:30:52.400 --> 00:31:02.220 When I was, like, 16 and, like, you know, reading in English class. I'm like, "Oh, I gotta figure out what my, like, philosophical outlook on life is," and you read about existentialism. And I'm like- Yeah... 188 00:31:02.230 --> 00:31:11.180 "Yeah, I think I'm an existentialist." Um, but it's just, like, but that's more of, like... I guess that's, like, an aesthetic, right? It's like- And now he's a Hegelian e-girl, right? Oh my God, no. 189 00:31:11.230 --> 00:31:21.190 [laughs] Don't, don't go there. [laughs] Um, but yeah. I guess, I guess, yeah, my question is, like, what... I'm curious more what you think these kids are saying when they say aesthetic. What we talk about- Yeah, I-... 190 00:31:21.200 --> 00:31:28.120 when we talk about aesthetics. [laughs] I think they're viewing it as a whole lifestyle. And, like, with Coquette Core, where it was like... 191 00:31:28.280 --> 00:31:38.870 And I know you don't spend a ton of time on TikTok, but it was l- I'm sure you've seen these- Mm-hmm... pop up on Reels, where it was, like, people putting little bows on, like, their AirPod case, and their vape- Mm... 192 00:31:38.900 --> 00:31:49.920 and their, their water bottle. And yeah, that's a meme, but it also was, like- Mm... turning their entire world into, like, "Okay, I am Coquette Core." Yeah. "That is my a- aesthetic." And, like, 193 00:31:50.920 --> 00:31:56.790 we sh- sh- sh- Wait, wait, wait... talk about the demure thing now. Demure. Yeah. Yeah. We have to talk about demure. But it's like- I, wait, I didn't know- Oh, God... 194 00:31:56.790 --> 00:32:07.120 about demure until I read it in your newsletter yesterday, and then- [laughs]... I was scrolling Instagram Reels later in the day and I got, like, three in a row like, "Look at me sitting in the airport. I'm so demure. 195 00:32:07.360 --> 00:32:15.410 My number hasn't been called up yet. Um, look at those people standing up. Not demure." Um, yeah. [laughs] It was just, it was one of those things that just, like- Oh, my God... 196 00:32:15.420 --> 00:32:25.010 it felt like I was getting so old, where I'm like, "Was, has this been happening and I just haven't known about it?" Like, what is th- like, I just read about this and now I'm seeing it. Like, how... The world's- Yeah... 197 00:32:25.010 --> 00:32:36.480 moving too fast. It is moving so fast. I, I sat down to write the newsletter over the weekend, and I was doing, like, my deep scroll into TikTok. And it's always so... Uh, Daisy, do you spend much time on TikTok? 198 00:32:37.780 --> 00:32:46.640 Um, you know what? I took it off my phone. But the thing- Okay... I- You guys are stronger than me. [laughs] Well, you do it, you do it for a living. But the aesthetic- [laughs]... it crosses over to Twitter, though. 199 00:32:46.760 --> 00:32:54.930 That's the thing. Yeah. Like, you don't really have to have it anymore to know what's happening. Yeah. It's so true. Like- Mm-hmm... the demure thing crossed over immediately. 200 00:32:55.040 --> 00:33:04.589 But so I was scrolling, and it's like I saw one TikTok using the word demure. And you don't even think about it, right? You're just like, "Okay, that is a word that exists that I..." You know. 201 00:33:04.680 --> 00:33:12.980 And it's not weird that one person is using it. One of thousands of words. [laughs] Right. Exactly. [laughs] And then it's like I s- like, you know, two TikToks later I'm like, "What the fuck?" Like, what... 202 00:33:13.140 --> 00:33:25.160 Like, how is that... What... And then so I, like, dug into it. That's not very demure of you. Sorry. Yeah, sorry. [laughs] Yeah, Casey. Um- That's, that's a little rat. We've moved on. [laughs] Oh, no. But yeah. 203 00:33:25.200 --> 00:33:35.700 And, and then it was one of those things where it was like this is all over TikTok. By tomorrow, the brands are going to jump. And sure enough, they did. Like, I got onto Twitter on Monday morning. 204 00:33:35.920 --> 00:33:46.320 I put, sent out the newsletter Sunday night. And I'm not saying, like, I am a trend sw- Like, it was... You know, anybody who, like, was spending a lot of time on TikTok was observing the same things as me. Mm-hmm. 205 00:33:46.380 --> 00:33:57.480 And, um, I, on Monday morning, Chick it, uh, the cracker brand, Chicken in a Biskit. Or do you guys know that cracker brand? Um, not familiar. It's, like, chicken flavored crackers. I haven't thought about them in years. 206 00:33:57.520 --> 00:34:05.280 These are for humans or dogs? They're for humans. Okay. Um, they're called- Just to be clear It's like Cheez-Its but with chicken bouillon powder... Chicken in a Biskit. Yeah. 207 00:34:05.340 --> 00:34:15.640 They're, they're called Chicken in a Biskit Original Baked Snack cracker. And not- Look, I would eat it, but I wouldn't be happy about it. You would eat it demurely. Exactly. Exactly. Exactly. You'd nibble on it. 208 00:34:15.700 --> 00:34:28.780 But, uh, they had, they did a tweet about very demure, and I saw it- Mm... Monday morning. And it's like- Mm... if this cracker brand is already employing this language, like, this... You know, it's, it's... Yeah. 209 00:34:28.820 --> 00:34:41.300 It's Joever. Yeah. Oh, no. Y- what did you say? It's Joever. I don't know that. You've th- you don't know... We're so back, it's so Joever? You know Joever. You know Joever. Joever? Yeah. Like Joe Biden. Yeah. It was... 210 00:34:41.360 --> 00:34:54.280 This is like, I mean- Oh. You know, I'm old Biden era. Oh. Yes. Yeah. Yes, yes, yes. We're so back, it's so Joever. Okay. Yeah. Yeah. Mm-hmm. Um, it is so Joever. Yeah. [laughs] I, I've been- We're gonna get roasted. 211 00:34:54.640 --> 00:35:06.840 Uh- Mm... Francis and I were, were roasted in, well, a couple of comments on our, my New York Times profile- Mm... for our vocal fry. And somebody said that it sounded like a disease. And I was like, "You know what? 212 00:35:07.200 --> 00:35:17.640 Vocal fry is not a disease." Well- "But you know what is a disease? Jealousy." Jealousy. I, I was sick. Yeah, well. I was sick in, in the last two episodes. [laughs] So it was a disease there for me personally. 213 00:35:17.680 --> 00:35:24.800 But it's also just how we talk. You quite literally were sick. I was sick. Yeah. I was sick with it. I'm sick. Yeah. Sick of your bullshit. [laughs] Everyone comes for... 214 00:35:24.990 --> 00:35:32.220 That, I feel like that is the number one comment on every single podcast. Like, and it's, they say it about people who don't have... Like, it's, it's, like- Yeah... get over it. 215 00:35:32.300 --> 00:35:40.440 People love to- You know what I think it is? It's, it's, like, just talking into a mic and, and having the headphones on, where you're like, you hear- Yeah... yourself. You... It's something I easily fall into. 216 00:35:40.840 --> 00:35:50.980 Um, but w- okay, so speaking of the comments, there was another one where, um, producer Tom, shout out to him, he's listening, uh, had cut a clip of me talking about how I found... 217 00:35:51.510 --> 00:36:00.340 How Ryan Reynolds in Deadpool as a concept, but Ryan Reynolds generally, rubs me the wrong way. And somebody on YouTube- Yes... um, commented of saying I was jealous or something. 218 00:36:00.440 --> 00:36:10.570 Uh, and I was like, "Well, like, this, you know, YouTube Shorts, I should... Maybe this will help our engagement. I'll reply." Um, and I said something very demure. Uh, I was like, "No. Like, look- [laughs]... 219 00:36:10.620 --> 00:36:23.570 he's successful. Power to him, whatever. Like, just not for me." And the person wrote out this, like, yeah, short paragraph and basically accusing me of punching down to Ryan Reynolds. Um, which- [laughs]... 220 00:36:23.600 --> 00:36:31.110 which I found very flattering. Um, I wish- Open the schools. Open the schools. Open the schools. Open the schools. Yeah. Uh, but okay, I, I wanna bring us- I'm sorry... 221 00:36:31.110 --> 00:36:34.700 just briefly back to, um, just thinking about punching down. 222 00:36:34.980 --> 00:36:46.304 The first comment on Emily's article that we were talking about earlier, uh, g- which got, like, 198 likes, um, was, like, that this essayFeels like punching down to me. 223 00:36:46.364 --> 00:36:54.124 It's easy, easy to critique writing that's not up to your standards. When you run a popular blog, you're a part of the group that sets these standards, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. 224 00:36:54.234 --> 00:36:57.644 Like, I, I firmly believe it's better for somebody to write poorly instead of not writing at all. 225 00:36:58.124 --> 00:37:09.344 Um, I think this goes back to, like, kind of a lot of the stuff we've been talking about in, like, the Emily Sundberg essay, the, uh, Julia Alexander essay. Um, I think what it is is 226 00:37:10.404 --> 00:37:24.994 with so many people making so much content on so many platforms, uh, it's like this desire not to be criticized, which I think is, like, actually one of the marks of a, like, professional writer or Instagram creator, TikTok. 227 00:37:25.034 --> 00:37:31.024 Yeah. Like, anybody actually creating media, like, as, you know, beyond just content, like, creating media for the sake of, like, trying to build a business. It's like 228 00:37:31.924 --> 00:37:37.084 you have to be able to be criticized, and I think, uh, another... 229 00:37:37.104 --> 00:37:47.814 Delia Kai had had a, a good kinda short take in her newsletter on, on this essay too that was like the, the lines blurring between amateurism and professionalism. And I think in this case- Mm... 230 00:37:47.884 --> 00:37:58.444 that's kind of like one of the lines that was exposed, was like you have to be able to accept being criticized, like, if you want to compete in any of these, like, crowded content ecosystems, right? 231 00:37:58.704 --> 00:38:14.544 But do these- Mm-hmm... people wanna compete or are they just there? That's a really good question. Um, I think they might want to compete but not know that that's what they're doing. Hmm. Because I think everyone can... 232 00:38:14.584 --> 00:38:26.724 Anyone can call themselves a writer, but not- Yeah... everyone is entitled to an audience. Yes. And not everyone is entitled to an audience that's gonna be willing to pay for their work. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. 233 00:38:26.884 --> 00:38:47.764 Um, I guess what's not clear is for people who are using Substack as a hobby and are happy to, as a hobbyist writer, they call themselves writers, and they would like to have an audience to the extent that they would like t- their work to be read, but they don't have any sort of professional growth strategy, 234 00:38:49.464 --> 00:39:02.364 um... And none of these people, I, I don't think anyone who falls into that category, was specifically called out by Emily's essay. Mm. But to the extent that they felt implicated- Mm... 235 00:39:02.394 --> 00:39:18.244 um, you know, has Substack done anything or signaled anything to give the impression that if you're on the platform, you are a creator to the extent that you are accepting criticism on what you've created? 236 00:39:19.024 --> 00:39:30.753 Or are these people, as Emily sort of suggests, there in the same way that people are on Tumblr- Hmm... where- Mm-hmm... if somebody was writing on Tumblr, which some Tumblr blogs... I mean, I only post... 237 00:39:31.004 --> 00:39:38.284 I still use Tumblr. I only post visuals for the most part. Mm-hmm. Some people use it to write. I think during that heyday, it would be odd... 238 00:39:39.244 --> 00:39:51.223 It would not be odd for two people writing on Tumblr to get in an exchange with one another, but it would be very odd for, uh, an aesthetic criticism- [laughs]... or a value judgment on the quality of writing- Yeah... 239 00:39:51.234 --> 00:39:58.694 on Tumblr to leave the Tumblr ecosystem. Hmm. I think I would put, like, there was... I mean, I interviewed Kate Zambrino last year. Mm-hmm. 240 00:39:58.784 --> 00:40:03.624 She talked about the ecosystem of book bloggers that were talking to one another- Hmm. Yeah... I think primarily on WordPress. 241 00:40:04.024 --> 00:40:17.504 And sometimes those debates did rise to the level of getting covered in some literary publications or, um, you know, her, her book that, uh, Heroines- Uh-huh... 242 00:40:17.624 --> 00:40:27.324 um, did get a pretty harsh review in Jezebel- Interesting... that was pulling in some of the blog origins of it, I think. And, like, somebody like... 243 00:40:27.404 --> 00:40:36.834 I don't know how familiar you are with, like, somebody like Jessa Crispin, but- Hmm... those book bloggers, some of them did become then columnists. I don't know. I think what- Or maybe we're going too far. Interesting. 244 00:40:36.834 --> 00:40:40.004 I think, I'll say this. [laughs] I think with Tumblr, like, the answer is, like, probably no. 245 00:40:40.204 --> 00:40:47.564 I mean, I wasn't much on Tumblr, but there probably wasn't this kind of more discourse because Tumblr wasn't really a platform you could monetize. Still isn't. Mm-hmm. Hmm. So it, it just wasn't professionalized. 246 00:40:47.624 --> 00:40:56.674 It was... It would... Like, the whole thing was that it was about, like, amateur completism, to bring it back to the beginning. It was about amateur, like, collecting and distributing stuff and building aesthetics. 247 00:40:56.704 --> 00:41:04.434 It wasn't stuff you were, like, explicitly getting paid for, um, which, you know, brings emotion into it. That's a really good point. So is it the money that makes a difference? Yeah. 248 00:41:04.434 --> 00:41:15.444 Does money introduce this idea that people should form value judgments on quality? [lips smack] Yeah. I think that seems fair. I, um, I turned on paid subscriptions, um, 249 00:41:16.384 --> 00:41:27.724 I think three years ago, two years ago, three years ago. And at first, even though I had, like, you know, five or 10 paid subscriber or, you know, at, you know, you- Yeah... it starts small. 250 00:41:28.264 --> 00:41:41.774 Um, I felt like so much pressure to make sure that they were giving, that I was giving them, like, enough value. And I, it, I still stress out about it. Like, am I... Like, someone is giving me their money. 251 00:41:41.804 --> 00:41:52.064 Am I doing enough? Like, do, do they feel like they... Like, especially with the economy- I think-... being what it is, like-... your, your thousands of paid subscribers would, would say yes. 252 00:41:52.634 --> 00:41:54.344 [laughs] And, and, and that certainly hel-... 253 00:41:54.364 --> 00:42:03.203 Like, seeing that number and seeing the, you know, that people continue to re- renew, like, that feels to me like, okay, my quality is high, but it's still something that I think about all the time. 254 00:42:03.604 --> 00:42:12.224 And when I notice that a, a typo makes it through, especially in the long edition, because it's like sometimes it'll be 4,000 words, and there's tons of TikTok embeds. 255 00:42:12.624 --> 00:42:22.834 And so if I see something later that slipped in, I'm, I, I, like, really have a hard time not beating myself up over it. Like, mentally that I find that to be... Because I'm like, "They're paying me for this work." Yeah. 256 00:42:22.864 --> 00:42:31.984 So I do think... And I, I've paid for some Substacks, and then they sort of fall off and don't continue publishing. Hmm. And I'm like, "But I paid you." Well, what the hell? Like, I- Yeah... 257 00:42:32.014 --> 00:42:36.754 and, and there is sort of an a- assumption, and it, it, it's to-... Like, people go through stuff. Like, you're, you... 258 00:42:36.964 --> 00:42:43.144 A lot of times if you're paying, you know, 50 bucks annually, you're doing that with the understanding that they may or may not continue. 259 00:42:43.504 --> 00:42:56.336 But the hope and the expectation, especially o- once you've established a cadence, I think the same goes for podcasting, where it's like I know that Tasteless-Tasteland- Yeah... will come out every Wednesday morning, and 260 00:42:57.596 --> 00:43:03.256 th- you have that sort of, like, built up, like, expectation. Trust and consistency. And then... Yeah. Yeah. 261 00:43:03.316 --> 00:43:11.536 Like, I listen to How Long Gone because I, I walk my dog so much, and I know that there are gonna be new episodes Monday- Monday, Wednesday, Friday... Wednesday, Friday. Yeah. 262 00:43:11.546 --> 00:43:21.086 And when they went on vacation, I was like, "Well, what am I supposed to listen to on my dog walk?" It's also, I could talk to you guys a lot about how hard it is to discover podcasts- Yeah... 263 00:43:21.106 --> 00:43:31.906 that are inside o- of your interest, where it's like there's gotta be a million other podcasts along the lines of How Long Gone. Or- Yeah... you know, it, about, about taste, about- Yeah... zeitgeist, about culture. 264 00:43:32.356 --> 00:43:39.996 And it's like how can I not find other podcasts about trends? I know they exist, but it, the platforms are to make it so hard to find. 265 00:43:40.076 --> 00:43:52.036 I think Tasteland is a brilliant name for a podcast because it's like if someone is interested in zeitgeist taste, like culture, it's like immediately identifiable. Also, I think the logo's brilliant. 266 00:43:52.376 --> 00:43:58.926 Because when you're, as I learned just in, in thinking about launching a podcast, l- you know, the, the logo matters so much- Mm-hmm... 267 00:43:58.946 --> 00:44:07.686 where you wanna be able to, like, when I'm walking my dog, I wanna be able to tell, like, oh, without, like, getting too close- [laughs]... you know. The way it is. And so- Yeah... brilliant logo logo. 268 00:44:07.686 --> 00:44:17.115 Logo was Francis, name was me. And then- It's a big clip... we both got really attached to the idea of licensing this specific MJ Lenderman song. And, uh- Oh, funny... 269 00:44:17.136 --> 00:44:26.296 I actually got connected with his manager through Alex Goldman, another- Amazing... iconic podcaster. Podcaster. So thank you, Alex. And, um- Well- Yeah. Yeah. 270 00:44:26.536 --> 00:44:36.856 No, I was gonna say, uh, it's probably about time to wrap up here, so, you know, if you wanna listen to that MJ Lenderman song, you're in luck. It's about to play. [laughs] And, uh, Casey also- Bump that... 271 00:44:36.876 --> 00:44:46.656 just launched a very good podcast about the zeitgeist, uh, called After School, which also has a great logo. So go listen to it. Uh, thanks for coming on, Casey. Thanks, Casey. Thank you so much, guys. 272 00:44:47.796 --> 00:44:57.356 [upbeat outro music] It tastes just like it costs. Tea, honey.