[rock music] Honey. It tastes just like it costs.
And my comparison for that was that Joni Mitchell's Both Sides Now is completism- Mm... and Joni Mitchell's A Case of You is completionism. I love The Mitchell Matrix. [laughs] The Mitchell Matrix.
I think this is a great way to think about it. Um, I also think, like, the first lines of A Case of You are, like, some of the best lyrics, like, of all time. Just- How does it start again?
I think it starts, "Just before our love got lost-" Mm. "You said I'm as constant as a northern star." Ah, yeah. That's great. And then she says, "Constantly in the darkness. Where's that at?" Mm-hmm.
"If you want me, I'll be in the bar." Oh, that's so good. Yeah. I, I have to admit, that's... Like, that part was never sticky in my head. I just always think... Yeah, I'm not gonna try to sing, Jo.
My voice is terrible, but, um- No, no. Do it. You want me to do it? Yeah. Okay. I want you to just distract everyone while I readjust- You want me to embarrass myself?... my light- Uh-huh...
because I really don't like the way it is right now. Uh, well, I just like it when she goes, you know, "I could drink a case-" Stop. No. [laughs] You're right. See, I told you. It's a bad idea. That was not- Bad idea.
Tom- I'm not a singer... we will need you to cut that. Um, cut that out. Please cut that out. [laughs] Uh, not a joke. Um- [laughs] Yeah, that is- Not kidding. [laughs] Not kidding. [laughs] Like, I'm not a singer.
I, I played saxophone. [laughs] Let's, uh... We should go to karaoke sometime. Yes. We should do Tasteland karaoke. I would love to. Well- Do you have a karaoke song? I do. Um, I do. What do you think it is?
There's no... nothing to go on here. What do you think my karaoke song is? No, this is better. I'm gonna pull something from the ether. I'm a Believer by Smash Mouth. No. [laughs] No. No, it's not that.
It is, um, Dancing in the Dark by Bruce Springsteen. Okay. That actually... That's Ben's... one of Ben's songs. Uh, it's a, it's a banger. It's a classic. Um- What do you think mine is?
Okay, I'm also gonna get this [laughs] totally wrong. Um, uh, I'm gonna g- I, I don't think of it it's this, but I think this would be a nice one for you, uh- Okay... which is Manhattan by Cat Power.
Oh, that's very flattering. Mm-hmm. It's actually You're So Vain by Carly Simon. That's... Okay, that's, that's actually much more on brand. That's perfect. I'm not gonna sing. No. [laughs] I figured.
I let you fall on your face. You, you, you led me right into the mud with that one. Yeah. Yeah. Well, that's my job. That is. That is your job. Second mic. Into the, into the dirt. First mic, mud mic.
Second mic- [laughs]... bad influence mic. Wait, who's the first mic? Who's the first mic? You. Oh. Oh, okay. Yeah. Well, I don't know about that. I have justice privilege on this podcast. [laughs] Yeah.
That's a lot of responsibility to, to be first mic. Heavy is the head that wears the crown. [laughs] Heavy, heavy is the head that wears the Sony, the $90 Sony headphones. Um, I'm thinking about Instagram Reels.
We talked about Instagram Reels a couple times ago. Why? 'Cause I spend... I, actually I don't wanna talk screen time. Um- You stop doing that...
there's one that is stuck in my head right now, that I hate, and it's one of the ones I don't follow and I choose not to follow, but I haven't yet blocked him. Actually, I... You know who I did block?
Are you familiar with Tony P? Yeah, I think so. Tony P in DC. Mm. A day in my life as a 25-year-old bachelor in Washington, DC. Okay. Well, I remember that- Yeah... that crossover. I had to block him. Um- [laughs]...
I... It was making me mad. I don't know. It's like this... [sighs] It's so...
Like, his whole thing is that he, like, wants to be a dad, that he's, like, a dad in training, that he's, like, f- an old soul, that he's like 40 years old.
Um, and at first I thought it was kind of like- Does he have a girlfriend? He has had at points, you know, when he makes his- Okay. Again, revealed preferences is gonna be a big theme on this podcast.
He doesn't wanna be a dad. Revealed preferences. What do you... I've never heard that phrase. I've literally said it on, like, every single episode. Okay. Well, I haven't [laughs] been listening to this podcast. I've...
I just, I just talk on it. Well, I listen multiple times so that I can improve. Yeah. But that's fine. Um, second mic things. Okay. Wow, justice privilege once again. So, I mean, it's an economic thing. Like,
you ask consumers, "What do you care about?" They might say one thing in a survey, but the stuff that they buy- Oh, yeah... is, like, totally different.
So they'll say like, "I eat healthy," but then all they buy is frozen pizza. Mm-hmm. Me. Um, so yeah. It's like when people are like, "I really wanna have... Um, I hate drama.
I hate drama in relationships," but then they repeatedly date people who are, like, kind of unhinged. Oh, yeah.
So people have, like, carried over this into, like, other stuff, or they're like, "I just wanna settle down and have a family," but they're 40 years old and they date 23-year-olds- Mm-hmm...
who clearly do not wanna be mothers yet. So that's, like... I think it's- Self-gaslighting... Well, it's self-delusion. Yeah. It's like the nar- We tell ourselves stories in order to live. [laughs] Um,
you know, as somebody like that, it's like, "Oh, I wanna be a father," but are you? But- Are you dating- But he's a 25-year-old bachelor in DC... your child's mother? Are you looking for your child's mother? Yeah. Yeah.
I mean, that's fine. I mean, I also am like, you can, you can do dad things and not be a dad. That's totally fine. I mean, you don't own those concepts, but does seem like a little bit of a,
a gap between the self- Yeah... story and the reality. Tony P, we don't believe you. I don't think you wanna be a dad.
Um, our guest is here, our very first guest here on the Tasteland podcast, um, Casey Lewis, author of the After School newsletter and the new After School podcast, Podcast Class of Summer 2024.
Um, I've had her on the Creator Spotlight podcast and newsletter six months ago or so. Casey rules, one of my favorite newsletters. Let's, uh, let's chat. What's up, Casey? Hey, guys. Hey, Casey. Hey, Casey.
I just saw... I to- If you, if you saw me laughing, I just saw a tweet that says, in quotes, "I want grandkid- kids... I want grandkids," and then the response is, "Best I can do is a newsletter"- Mm...
which made me LOL 'cause, yeah. That's kind of a... Yeah. [laughs] Well, Casey- Hey... how's it going? It's been like six months- Good... since we last- Yes... podded.Yes. I'm good. How are you?
Congratulations, you guys. I, I, what a dream team, you two. Mm-hmm. What a dream team having you here too. I mean, like- [laughs]... I was just saying, the, the, the podcast [laughs] I need to stop saying this.
The podca- [laughs] the podcast class of summer 2024. [laughs] Um- We'll see who graduates in four years. Yeah. It's never too late to start a podcast, right? Yes. I do agree. To start a podcast, to start a newsletter,
all of it. Mm-hmm. Um, how... So when I talked to you like six months ago, you had just quit your job to do the newsletter full-time. This was...
Yeah, I talk, think I talked to you in February, newsletter came out in March, something like that. Yeah. Has it been... How- how's it been... Is, is it a success? How do you feel? You know, it's funny.
I, I was so excited to have all this time to sort... You know, 'cause I, my job was not a nine-to-five. It was like pr- you know, like any job.
But, so I felt like I was gonna have all this time and all of this brain space, and, um, the same week that m- was my last day at work, I also moved and got a puppy. [laughs] And so I was...
It was honestly like the most stressful point of my life. It, which was worse. It, it, it, it felt bad because I was leaving what was a, a wonderful but stressful job. Mm-hmm.
And I was like, "My life is gonna be stress-free," and then it ended up being so much more stressful.
And so I f- kind of felt a bit like a failure because I was not as productive as I wanted to be for a couple of months there. Um, but the, the puppy is settling in.
The boxes are, uh, gone, and so I'm feeling pr- w- productive again. Oh, congratulations. I didn't notice- Thank you... any drop-off in the newsletter [laughs] for what it's worth.
Y- I tried really hard not to, but, like, the moving stuff is just the most boring thing to talk about, but also, like, one of those life, really derails the life. Yeah. Yeah. What kind of puppy do you have?
Well, it's funny that you should ask. [laughs] So curious. 'Cause he's right here. [gasps] Oh my goodness. That's a big- This is Leo... that's like a dog. That's not a puppy. Yeah. That's a dog. Yeah.
He's a, he's really good, but man, he's, um, he's been a handful. He, we thought that he was gonna be, um, like two to three. Mm-hmm. And he's more like one. Mm-hmm.
And so has like tons of energy, and, um, just needed to be walked pretty much constantly for the first- Is he a Pittie Lab mix? So we just got his DNA test. He looks like a Pittie Lab. Mm.
And I grew up with Labs, and so I, I hoped that he was a Pittie Lab, but he is 100% Pittie. Aw. And the same kind of Pittie. Like, he- Mm... you know, there's, like, American Bully, there's, like, all kinds of Pitties.
Um, he's 100%, um, Pit Bull Terrier. Such a sweetie. Thank you. [laughs] Um, so one more thing about catching up on the newsletter. When I talked to you- Yeah... you had,
uh, 40,000 subscribers and 2,000 paid subscribers. Have, h- are the numbers, numbers healthy? Numbers gone up? [laughs] The numbers have gone up. However, I've gotten a little more aggressive about purging. Mm. Mm-hmm.
So I don't know how often you guys do this, but probably, like, once a month, I'll sort of dive into my open rate and get...
You know, the, I, specifically with Substack it seems like, and you guys don't have this problem because neither of you are on Sub- Substack, but like- We're both on Beehiiv. Yeah. Which is pretty cool.
We're both on Beehiiv, Company Line, but- Yeah... we are gonna talk about Substack later. [laughs] Yes. In any spotlight. We'll have to talk about their... [laughs] But there's, there... I, I get...
It's hard to tell if the quality of subscribers that come through the Substa- Sub- Substack app are actu- Like, are they just checking a box, and then they're sudden... Like, I don't know.
I just, so I try to, like, really stay on top of my open rate. So all that's to say, I'm at 48. Um, so that's s- some growth. Well, has the- I guess part- But I mean, the number that matters is the premium number.
Are, are pe- are more people paying you to write your newsletter? Oh, yes. I am seeing, I am see- seeing the premium number go up. Mm. Um, which is i- always exciting.
Though it's never as, like, high as I, like, as, as the amount of, like, time, blood, sweat, and tears go into it. [laughs] Yeah. I'm always like, "Damn it."
But, um, there's so many s- there's so many newsletters at this point that it's like, I get it. Okay. So we should talk about this. Emily Sundberg's essay- Yeah. Yes...
from like a week ago now, uh, The Machine in the Garden. Mm-hmm. I think it's, you know, it's been reverberating, reverberating around the newsletter world.
Um, many newsletters ha- that have been sent that are takes on this newsletter. Um, the gist, I don't know, I don't know if there's one gist.
Kind of the gist though is that there's too many newsletters that aren't good enough, where people are expecting, um, you know- Oh... people to pay for 10 links of things they think they should buy. My- Right?
Mm, my read's a little bit different. Yeah. Like, I think... I mean, that is one interpretation, for sure. And also, I talked to Emily yesterday and told her- Yeah... "We're gonna talk about it on the podcast.
Is there anything that you wanna add about the response?" And then she- Yeah...
last night's Feed me was, like, a voice memo from her where she talks about how, um, like a previous piece that she wrote for New York Magazine about shoppy shops, this piece was a little bit of an ink blot test of what people want to see.
Mm-hmm.
And I think there is one interpretation that's like, um, Substack has created this ecosystem where it's so easy to toggle on subscriptions and ask people to pay for your writing without deeply considering whether what you're writing is worth paying for.
That's one interpretation. Interesting. Yeah.
To me, it's more about the context collapse that happens in an ecosystem like Substack, where some people are using it in a professional way and some people are using it as hobbyists. Yeah.
But everyone is using the same tools, and everyone is, um, you know, to attach a term to it, a writer. Mm. Yeah. And so...
Well, and, and this really, like, strikes at, like, why Francis and I started the podcast, because I think, you know, I have a slide in a res- recent presentation I did that, where I call this the creator economy trap.Which is everyone has to promote their hobby in the same way that they promote their business because of the amount of noise in- Mm-hmm...
the attention economy and the creator economy, which exists, you know, they're the same. They're just two layers of the same- Mm-hmm... information ecosystem.
Um, but if you, if your, like, Substack is your hobby, but you are marketing it in the same way you would market a business, people start to have expectations of you- Mm-hmm.
- where they view themselves as your customer, especially if they're paying for it. Mm-hmm.
And I don't know that some of these platforms have done enough to address that, these different use cases, because everyone's getting it and you're experiencing it all on the same app feed. Mm-hmm.
And I think the context collapse is really, to me, the most salient part. Not even the quality of the writing, but, like, how are people viewing their writing? Like, what is their intention- Well, I think so-...
with the writing... one thing on the context collapse is Rachel Karten- Yeah... then had a great response as a note, uh, who writes... She writes The Link in Bio Newsletter, another great newsletter.
Um, she [chuckles] wrote a Substack note about it that I think kinda captures what you're saying.
That, like, the problem is that on Substack, you know, Substack's become a social media app, so then, like, when you're seeing somebody's newsletter out of context of, like, you subscribed to their newsletter and it's in your inbox, and you're actually seeing it, like, on, like, the Substack notes feed, Reblog.
Uh-huh. Like, then that's, like, that's just wrong. Like, it's not meant to be seen that way.
You're meant to see it in the context of, like, you know, if somebody is sending two essays a week and then one, like, links roundup, like, the links roundup- Mm-hmm...
then has meaning in that it's, like, that person's curated take. Mm-hmm.
Whereas when you're seeing three links roundups from three different people, two of whom you don't follow, in your feed at once, then it's like, then it's really devalued. Yeah.
I, I think the interesting thing about all of this, I didn't realize that many people were using the Substack app in this way, and especially getting content that they don't subscribe to. Mm-hmm.
Like, and I, I personally don't use it in that way. So I, I guess I'm curious about you guys as Beehive writers. Do you feel, do you feel... How, how do you think about the Substack app?
Do you think it is as important as... So, uh, d- did you guys read the Jess, Jess Graves, uh, essay about edfluency? No. And if it- What's edfluencing? It, it...
My, my, like, brain immediately, 'cause my mom is an educator, goes to, like, is this a, is this e- e- you know, edutainment? But no. Mm. This is, um, an, uh, editor meets influencer.
And she has this really interesting article that went sort of viral, like Emily's, and Emily covered it as well. And I thought her take was interesting.
And, um, I will say Jess, um, published this article, uh, publicly, and then it started to create so much conversation that then she paywa- paywalled the whole thing. Smart.
Which I thought was super interesting and smart, obviously. Um, but, but just, uh, her, her thought, her point of view was, um, you know, she, uh, grew... Uh, she came up, like, in agency world.
She was an early days fashion influencer. She got on Substack early. Early in terms of relative to other fashion Substackers. Mm-hmm.
And I, I don't know that you guys are deeply entrenched in the fashion Substack subset, nor am I, but I... There is one- I follow, like, Laura Riley. Yes. Yes. Mm-hmm. Well, I... But...
And I feel like Laura is sort of like w- like, she has [chuckles] her own thing to me. Mm-hmm. Like, what she's doing.
But there's a lot of, there's a lot of TikTokers and infl- fashion TikTokers and fashion influencers who, uh, typical fashion influencers- Mm-hmm... who have started expanding onto Substack. Mm-hmm.
Which is really interesting to see someone who mostly is a, you know, aggregates- A video... yeah, video or photo- Mm-hmm... trying to translate to Substack.
Uh, so Jess's point was, um, it was very much like, um, almost like Substack, fashion Substack hierarchy. Um, you know, there's, like, infighting a little bit she touched on.
There's backlash when these influencers get so big that then they are now wearing only The Row, but they used to, you know, maybe recommend H&M. And then it's, like, so many people. Just some really interesting... Yeah.
Mm. But, but her, her essay i- initially struck me as, like, I didn't realize that s- that people viewed Substack as such a, you know... I, I think about it as sort of like Blogger back in the day. Mm.
Which, like, Francis, as you know, I had a vlog [laughs] on Blogger back in the day. But it was just merely a platform, right? Like, it, there was a little, like- It was a tool... there were... Yeah, it was a tool.
There were blog rolls- Yeah... that, that- Like, not a platform... you know. Yeah. Yeah. But it wasn't a... It, sorry, it wasn't a platform. It was merely a place...
It, it, it gave you the tools to publish your work, and that's very much how I view Substack and always have, is like, it is like Mailchimp in many ways. Yeah. Um, it's better than Mailchimp in many ways, but it's, it...
So the, the fact that there's this sort of Substack ecosystem, I, I'm, I have a hard time understanding, like, how big it is and how valid it is as an ecosystem. And are we giving Substack too much credit for what it...
And I'm curious with you guys- Yeah... being on Beehive- Well, I think, I mean-... how you feel about that. Yeah, I think... 'Cause Beehive, I, I think of Beehive and, like, other things like Ghost as, like- Yeah...
you know, a tool. Whereas Substack is, like, decidedly both a social media platform and a media company itself, which is, like- Yeah... partially in the m- in how Substack monetizes, right?
Like, they take a 10% cut of your paid subscriptions. So it's almost like you are a, like, like... I, I forget if... I, I hadn't talked to Ryan Broderick yet when I interviewed you, but he had this great thing.
I was like, "What, what's a creator?" And he said, "It's an Uber driver for posts." Where that's what it is on Substack- [laughs]... because of that business model. Um- Yeah...
and then Substack itself is, like, dude, like, every s- writer on Substack, because of that payment model, is almost, like, not quite a freelance writer for Substack the media company, but you're not not. Yeah. Right?
Whereas, like, other things, like Beehive, like Ghost, these other platforms that, like, ar- don't have this, like, walled appSocial media platform, like those are decidedly tools, right? Yeah.
Like I don't think of myself as... I mean, I'm paid by Beehive, so- [laughs]... I guess I am a Beehiver, but I don't think of myself as like a Beehive writer. Oh, yeah, you are. Yeah. Yeah.
In the way that there's a subset. You're especially a Beehiver. Yeah. But yeah. But, and, and I- But it's, it's different...
yeah, I was actually struck this, in my morning scroll in bed, like bleary-eyed this morning, um, Marie Claire posted a, a story that was like, um, sub- like the, the designer behind Substack's favorite loafers is, is coming for your closet.
Yeah. And I, I thought as a, a headline in a, a women's fashion magazine, how, how interesting that was that, you know, it, and when you read it, if you don't know, like Substack's- Well, I actually, so I just bought-...
favorite loafer... um, John Ganz's new book, When the Clock Broke, and I was like reading the inside jacket cover, uh, what's the name of his newsletter again? I don't know.
Uh, okay, I forget what it is, but he- [laughs]... it's, uh, it says, "He writes the," whatever the name of his newsletter is, "for Substack."
Didn't say on, it said that he writes it for Substack in the cover, the jacket cover of the book. Um, okay. Another thing- Whoa...
I wanna, I wanna bring in though too, um, Julia Al- Alexander, who writes Posting Nexus, which she says is neither a blog or a newsletter. It's on Ghost [laughs] I'm bringing up third and fourth [inaudible] here.
[laughs] She had this article yesterday, I think, a couple days ago, called People Aren't Posting: What Happens When People Revolt Against Social Media Just Becoming Media.
And she's like starts it referencing this Wall Street Journal piece that like I for- I, I didn't read the actual stats in it, but like these stats that prove like people aren't posting as much as they used to.
Um, and she says, "The problem is that apps like Instagram," which I think applies to, uh, Substack here too, "the problem is that apps-" Mm-hmm...
"like Instagram are split into two separate platforms for two separate groups of people, a social connector and an entertainment media center.
The goal is to balance incentive, the goal for the company is to balance incentive enough for the latter to ensure that there is enough fodder for the former."
Um, and then she also says, last quote, uh, "It got me thinking, how do you encourage people to post while expanding the reach of their circle? You lean away from the social component and towards the media side.
Friends morph into audiences. Platforms for connecting are no longer designed for relationships. They're designed as media centers."
Whereas I, I think what we're talking about with Substack designed as a media center becoming a platform for relationships. Hmm. That's super interesting. Super interesting.
All right, so your new podcast came out yesterday. I listened to it. Uh, you had two guests. One was this micro influencer, Jenny Duan, um, and then the other was like the VP of Global Consumer Marketing for Pinterest.
Uh- Yeah... which great contrast. But like I was curious, who, who is Jenny Duan? How did you find her?
Like I was looking her up and it's like, you know, she has like 6,000 on TikTok, a million likes, but like, so like who is this person? Well, she is an After School reader.
[laughs] And she emailed me earlier this summer.
And then in thinking about who I could have on to like sort of, I wanted someone who was embedded in TikTok and understood haul talk without being so embedded that they were, you know, capital C Creator.
Mm-hmm. You know? I wanted someone who like understood the landscape a bit, and so she's like a super, I mean, she's a philosophy computer science major. She is a right now a finance intern in New York.
She walked in wearing like the cool, like a white floaty maxi skirt. Like she, she had pink hair. Like she's so cool.
But I felt like she was someone who sort of like showed that ca- that Gen Z contrast of like you can be this and this and this. Mm-hmm.
Um, and I, I think micro influencers have a good perspective because, again, they're not like so up there that they're are media, they're media trained and- They're more self-aware. Yeah, exactly.
And they, I, I wanted someone who wasn't also, um, wanting, like when there's too much pressure to get brand deals or, you know, like I, I didn't, I wanted someone who could speak candidly.
Um, so yeah, she was cool, right? Yeah. No, that, that was good. Um, one thing, you were talking about like these like back to schools, the, the haul talk, which is like- Yes... so foreign to me.
I mean, I, I try- [laughs]... to stay off TikTok. Um, but yeah, what, this is something you've been writing about a lot too in, in recent weeks in After School. What is haul talk?
What are you, what are you learning from haul talk? Yeah. So there are, haul talk always exists, and it existed on YouTube before. Well, I mean, it, it, hauls, shopping hauls- Yeah. Well, uh, when you say always-...
exists on YouTube... like how long ago is always? Sorry to interrupt. Uh, so I'm not a YouTube... I, I, I have not spent a significant amount of time on YouTube, but I think for y- e- ages.
As long as beauty and fashion YouTubers have existed, I think that hauls have been popular content. Um, YouTube is kind of a blind spot for me. It's something that I want to course correct, but it's such a
monster that I just, you know, TikTok to me feels a little bit more accessible. Um, but so hauls are, you know, I got this from Abercrombie. Yeah. I got this from Hollister.
And, um, the big moments around hauls are back to school and Christmas, where people are talking about what they, you know, what they got from Santa.
And, um, it's just I, I love it because it's such a peek into what people are buying, and, um, just in terms of like my favorite thing is, you know, literally just it's gonna be rainy this weekend, and I'm going, my plan is to spend Saturday and Sunday watching back to school hauls, and sort of crunching the most popular, uh, product, you know, figuring out- Yeah...
what are the thru- through, you know, what are, what comes up again and again. And it's always interesting to see.
So one of the craziest things that I've seen so far is, um, how popular tube tops are, but for back to school.Like, I couldn't wear a tube top to back to school. Mm-hmm.
It's crazy, these, like, stretchy little tube tops, and they're wearing them with, like, baggy jeans or baggy sweats even.
Um, but you know, these things which I, I've been doing this now for three years, and so to see even differences from last year are fascinating to me.
And it, anot- one aspect that's fascinating to me is, like, I grew up in rural Missouri. The trends reached me... I think, Francis, you and I maybe talked about this. Yeah.
The trends reached me w- much later than they hit the kids in New York, you know? It's like I got my trends via MTV or teen magazines. And
to see the trend cycle collapse in a way that, like, kids in rural Missouri are seeing the, are buying the very same things as, like, kids in New York to- Mm... I mean, not quite, but you know, close enough.
Well, wait, I'm curious. It's like- So when you t- uh, like, these kids, like, is there, like... I don't know. Are they mostly, like, college age, high school?
Is, do you think there's, like, a, a location where they mostly are? Is it just kind of like all over the states? No. But yeah, what's- Literally all-... who are these people? Yeah, it's all over.
It's literally all over. And right now, like, one of the most famous Tik- uh, like, haul girls is this girl, Dimitra. She lives in New Jersey. She's just, like, a New Jersey teen. Mm-hmm.
The Wall Street Journal just profiled her. And it's- Wow... like she's not a household name. Like, no one knows who she is except for teenage girls, and now The Wall Street Journal.
And she just, the, she's able to sell stuff out, and but her wardrobe is so simple. She's, like, wearing low-rise jeans from PacSun and baby tees from Brandy Melville. And you're like, "This is a style icon?"
Not that her style is bad, but it's like- Mm... you know, um, I don't mean to bully a teen.
[laughs] She's so cool, but, like, uh, you know, it's just sort of remarkable that it's, like, this is, like, who everyone is aspiring to be when it seems so simple. It's not innovative, it's relatable. Exactly. Exactly.
But in previous influencer cycles, people have gravitated towards the people who are in- like, innovating. Like, I mean, Tavi is an example- Yes... of that. Um, Leandra Medine. Yes, yeah. Um,
and then we, I think we happen to be in a cycle right now where people are especially looking for, like, almost, like, the median. Yeah. But you have to stand out, you know? Yeah. We've talked about this with startups.
It's like you have to stand out enough to break out of the noise.
Um, but then the people that break out, um, you know, whether it's, like, an Alex Cooper, like Alex Earl, even Emma Chamberlain back in the day, although I think she's- Yeah...
become, I think she's become a lot more into really personal style- Yeah... um, and values. Like, they break out of the pack, but they're kind of indistinguishable from their audience. Yeah.
And I think that that dynamic has to, by nature of how paradoxical it is, be short-lived, where either the tide will not turn on that particular person, but that person will have to innovate- Mm...
to maintain their audience, or, um, the next influencer cycle will, s- kind of the pendulum will swing back to people who are breaking out of the pack because they're not the median. They're an outlier in some way. Yeah.
Yeah. Well, I, I had a conversation yesterday about clicks and counterculture and what does that look like in 2024 for teenagers. But it makes me think of, you know, startups or influencers or high school kids.
It's all the same, where you, you want, you want to blend in enough- Mm-hmm... but you need to stand out at the same time. You can't be too weird, because then that is divisive.
What is counterculture- It's like that's-... for, like, for kids, for k- [laughs] for kids these days? Yeah. I, so I th- I, I honestly don't... Like, for me, I'm like, is counterculture... My best guess is- Yeah...
is counterculture the kids who are, like, the n- the n- kids who are foregoing technology altogether? That's what I would think. So yeah, I think that that's the be- because it's like, what else could counterculture be?
I mean, surely there are still, like, the punk kids and the goth kids. But, like, for truly counterculture- But goth is a Pinterest tag. Right, exactly. You know, like, I listened to the episode too.
It's like it's been fully subsumed by the mainstream if it's a Pinterest tag. The old baddies, Daisy. [laughs] Yeah. Yeah.
[laughs] They, Jenny kept using the word aesthetic, which, which I thought was, uh, was really funny, um, I feel, 'cause I feel like aesthetic- Yes... that I didn't use that when I was in high school.
Maybe I did in college. Yeah. Uh, and I looked up, I looked up the Google Trend, uh, for aesthetic, and it's- Oh, it's huge.
Well, but it was, it was basically flat until around the time I remember it coming about, like, 2014. It starts ticking up- Okay... but then it peaks- Yeah...
uh, September 2020 at, like, the 100% in, like, kind of a quick rise. Interesting. And now it's- Yeah... back down to, like, 25%. But the way she kept using the word aesthetic, I think is like- Yeah...
uh, uh, kids didn't talk like that when I was- No. I mean, she's not in high school, but when I was in high school, kids didn't talk... We did in college, I guess, but. Yeah. I, I think you're...
Around the time that all of the cores, you know- Mm. Yeah... cottagecore, coquette core, like, when... And that's ar- just before I started After School.
But that's sort of what inspired me to start a newsletter, is I was seeing just so many trend head- headlines. Explore the core. And yeah.
And I wa- I was trying to understand, like, what is all, what is, what to make of it, you know? [laughs] Like, what does it all mean? And this was before I was on TikTok.
And so just fascinated by this sort of rise, and honestly the use of a- aesthetic among young people in terms of, like, I have to find my aesthetic, or, like, what is my aesthetic?
And I think that's why Pinterest has become so popular with Gen Z- Mm... because they're trying to understand. And, like, for us, it was like, "What is my style?" You know? It- Mm-hmm...
but aesthetic for them, it's like, it's not just what is their style. It's tied into their whole, like, who am I? Yeah. This- Yeah...
so this reminds me, I saw s, uh, um, I saw, like, a quote tweeted, you know, quote-unquote "meme" on, on Twitter the other day that was like, it was just, like, a pink vape with, uh, I think My Year of Rest and Relaxation, the book, like, uh, over it.
[laughs] And I, the quote tweet was just like, "This isn't even a meme anymore." Like, this is just, like, a, a- an identity signifier. Like, memes don't even exist.
[laughs] It's just, it's just these, like, aesthetic things. Which when we were talking, Daisy, the other episode about, like, the Anthony Bourdain starter packs and how it's just like-You know, it's... I don't know.
What's the difference, do you think, between aesthetic and style then? Like, you're, you're kind of saying that it's more about, like, a full identity, but then that's making me think of, like, when I was in...
When I was, like, 16 and, like, you know, reading in English class. I'm like, "Oh, I gotta figure out what my, like, philosophical outlook on life is," and you read about existentialism. And I'm like- Yeah...
"Yeah, I think I'm an existentialist." Um, but it's just, like, but that's more of, like... I guess that's, like, an aesthetic, right? It's like- And now he's a Hegelian e-girl, right? Oh my God, no.
[laughs] Don't, don't go there. [laughs] Um, but yeah. I guess, I guess, yeah, my question is, like, what... I'm curious more what you think these kids are saying when they say aesthetic. What we talk about- Yeah, I-...
when we talk about aesthetics. [laughs] I think they're viewing it as a whole lifestyle. And, like, with Coquette Core, where it was like...
And I know you don't spend a ton of time on TikTok, but it was l- I'm sure you've seen these- Mm-hmm... pop up on Reels, where it was, like, people putting little bows on, like, their AirPod case, and their vape- Mm...
and their, their water bottle. And yeah, that's a meme, but it also was, like- Mm... turning their entire world into, like, "Okay, I am Coquette Core." Yeah. "That is my a- aesthetic." And, like,
we sh- sh- sh- Wait, wait, wait... talk about the demure thing now. Demure. Yeah. Yeah. We have to talk about demure. But it's like- I, wait, I didn't know- Oh, God...
about demure until I read it in your newsletter yesterday, and then- [laughs]... I was scrolling Instagram Reels later in the day and I got, like, three in a row like, "Look at me sitting in the airport. I'm so demure.
My number hasn't been called up yet. Um, look at those people standing up. Not demure." Um, yeah. [laughs] It was just, it was one of those things that just, like- Oh, my God...
it felt like I was getting so old, where I'm like, "Was, has this been happening and I just haven't known about it?" Like, what is th- like, I just read about this and now I'm seeing it. Like, how... The world's- Yeah...
moving too fast. It is moving so fast. I, I sat down to write the newsletter over the weekend, and I was doing, like, my deep scroll into TikTok. And it's always so... Uh, Daisy, do you spend much time on TikTok?
Um, you know what? I took it off my phone. But the thing- Okay... I- You guys are stronger than me. [laughs] Well, you do it, you do it for a living. But the aesthetic- [laughs]... it crosses over to Twitter, though.
That's the thing. Yeah. Like, you don't really have to have it anymore to know what's happening. Yeah. It's so true. Like- Mm-hmm... the demure thing crossed over immediately.
But so I was scrolling, and it's like I saw one TikTok using the word demure. And you don't even think about it, right? You're just like, "Okay, that is a word that exists that I..." You know.
And it's not weird that one person is using it. One of thousands of words. [laughs] Right. Exactly. [laughs] And then it's like I s- like, you know, two TikToks later I'm like, "What the fuck?" Like, what...
Like, how is that... What... And then so I, like, dug into it. That's not very demure of you. Sorry. Yeah, sorry. [laughs] Yeah, Casey. Um- That's, that's a little rat. We've moved on. [laughs] Oh, no. But yeah.
And, and then it was one of those things where it was like this is all over TikTok. By tomorrow, the brands are going to jump. And sure enough, they did. Like, I got onto Twitter on Monday morning.
I put, sent out the newsletter Sunday night. And I'm not saying, like, I am a trend sw- Like, it was... You know, anybody who, like, was spending a lot of time on TikTok was observing the same things as me. Mm-hmm.
And, um, I, on Monday morning, Chick it, uh, the cracker brand, Chicken in a Biskit. Or do you guys know that cracker brand? Um, not familiar. It's, like, chicken flavored crackers. I haven't thought about them in years.
These are for humans or dogs? They're for humans. Okay. Um, they're called- Just to be clear It's like Cheez-Its but with chicken bouillon powder... Chicken in a Biskit. Yeah.
They're, they're called Chicken in a Biskit Original Baked Snack cracker. And not- Look, I would eat it, but I wouldn't be happy about it. You would eat it demurely. Exactly. Exactly. Exactly. You'd nibble on it.
But, uh, they had, they did a tweet about very demure, and I saw it- Mm... Monday morning. And it's like- Mm... if this cracker brand is already employing this language, like, this... You know, it's, it's... Yeah.
It's Joever. Yeah. Oh, no. Y- what did you say? It's Joever. I don't know that. You've th- you don't know... We're so back, it's so Joever? You know Joever. You know Joever. Joever? Yeah. Like Joe Biden. Yeah. It was...
This is like, I mean- Oh. You know, I'm old Biden era. Oh. Yes. Yeah. Yes, yes, yes. We're so back, it's so Joever. Okay. Yeah. Yeah. Mm-hmm. Um, it is so Joever. Yeah. [laughs] I, I've been- We're gonna get roasted.
Uh- Mm... Francis and I were, were roasted in, well, a couple of comments on our, my New York Times profile- Mm... for our vocal fry. And somebody said that it sounded like a disease. And I was like, "You know what?
Vocal fry is not a disease." Well- "But you know what is a disease? Jealousy." Jealousy. I, I was sick. Yeah, well. I was sick in, in the last two episodes. [laughs] So it was a disease there for me personally.
But it's also just how we talk. You quite literally were sick. I was sick. Yeah. I was sick with it. I'm sick. Yeah. Sick of your bullshit. [laughs] Everyone comes for...
That, I feel like that is the number one comment on every single podcast. Like, and it's, they say it about people who don't have... Like, it's, it's, like- Yeah... get over it.
People love to- You know what I think it is? It's, it's, like, just talking into a mic and, and having the headphones on, where you're like, you hear- Yeah... yourself. You... It's something I easily fall into.
Um, but w- okay, so speaking of the comments, there was another one where, um, producer Tom, shout out to him, he's listening, uh, had cut a clip of me talking about how I found...
How Ryan Reynolds in Deadpool as a concept, but Ryan Reynolds generally, rubs me the wrong way. And somebody on YouTube- Yes... um, commented of saying I was jealous or something.
Uh, and I was like, "Well, like, this, you know, YouTube Shorts, I should... Maybe this will help our engagement. I'll reply." Um, and I said something very demure. Uh, I was like, "No. Like, look- [laughs]...
he's successful. Power to him, whatever. Like, just not for me." And the person wrote out this, like, yeah, short paragraph and basically accusing me of punching down to Ryan Reynolds. Um, which- [laughs]...
which I found very flattering. Um, I wish- Open the schools. Open the schools. Open the schools. Open the schools. Yeah. Uh, but okay, I, I wanna bring us- I'm sorry...
just briefly back to, um, just thinking about punching down.
The first comment on Emily's article that we were talking about earlier, uh, g- which got, like, 198 likes, um, was, like, that this essayFeels like punching down to me.
It's easy, easy to critique writing that's not up to your standards. When you run a popular blog, you're a part of the group that sets these standards, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera.
Like, I, I firmly believe it's better for somebody to write poorly instead of not writing at all.
Um, I think this goes back to, like, kind of a lot of the stuff we've been talking about in, like, the Emily Sundberg essay, the, uh, Julia Alexander essay. Um, I think what it is is
with so many people making so much content on so many platforms, uh, it's like this desire not to be criticized, which I think is, like, actually one of the marks of a, like, professional writer or Instagram creator, TikTok.
Yeah. Like, anybody actually creating media, like, as, you know, beyond just content, like, creating media for the sake of, like, trying to build a business. It's like
you have to be able to be criticized, and I think, uh, another...
Delia Kai had had a, a good kinda short take in her newsletter on, on this essay too that was like the, the lines blurring between amateurism and professionalism. And I think in this case- Mm...
that's kind of like one of the lines that was exposed, was like you have to be able to accept being criticized, like, if you want to compete in any of these, like, crowded content ecosystems, right?
But do these- Mm-hmm... people wanna compete or are they just there? That's a really good question. Um, I think they might want to compete but not know that that's what they're doing. Hmm. Because I think everyone can...
Anyone can call themselves a writer, but not- Yeah... everyone is entitled to an audience. Yes. And not everyone is entitled to an audience that's gonna be willing to pay for their work. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Um, I guess what's not clear is for people who are using Substack as a hobby and are happy to, as a hobbyist writer, they call themselves writers, and they would like to have an audience to the extent that they would like t- their work to be read, but they don't have any sort of professional growth strategy,
um... And none of these people, I, I don't think anyone who falls into that category, was specifically called out by Emily's essay. Mm. But to the extent that they felt implicated- Mm...
um, you know, has Substack done anything or signaled anything to give the impression that if you're on the platform, you are a creator to the extent that you are accepting criticism on what you've created?
Or are these people, as Emily sort of suggests, there in the same way that people are on Tumblr- Hmm... where- Mm-hmm... if somebody was writing on Tumblr, which some Tumblr blogs... I mean, I only post...
I still use Tumblr. I only post visuals for the most part. Mm-hmm. Some people use it to write. I think during that heyday, it would be odd...
It would not be odd for two people writing on Tumblr to get in an exchange with one another, but it would be very odd for, uh, an aesthetic criticism- [laughs]... or a value judgment on the quality of writing- Yeah...
on Tumblr to leave the Tumblr ecosystem. Hmm. I think I would put, like, there was... I mean, I interviewed Kate Zambrino last year. Mm-hmm.
She talked about the ecosystem of book bloggers that were talking to one another- Hmm. Yeah... I think primarily on WordPress.
And sometimes those debates did rise to the level of getting covered in some literary publications or, um, you know, her, her book that, uh, Heroines- Uh-huh...
um, did get a pretty harsh review in Jezebel- Interesting... that was pulling in some of the blog origins of it, I think. And, like, somebody like...
I don't know how familiar you are with, like, somebody like Jessa Crispin, but- Hmm... those book bloggers, some of them did become then columnists. I don't know. I think what- Or maybe we're going too far. Interesting.
I think, I'll say this. [laughs] I think with Tumblr, like, the answer is, like, probably no.
I mean, I wasn't much on Tumblr, but there probably wasn't this kind of more discourse because Tumblr wasn't really a platform you could monetize. Still isn't. Mm-hmm. Hmm. So it, it just wasn't professionalized.
It was... It would... Like, the whole thing was that it was about, like, amateur completism, to bring it back to the beginning. It was about amateur, like, collecting and distributing stuff and building aesthetics.
It wasn't stuff you were, like, explicitly getting paid for, um, which, you know, brings emotion into it. That's a really good point. So is it the money that makes a difference? Yeah.
Does money introduce this idea that people should form value judgments on quality? [lips smack] Yeah. I think that seems fair. I, um, I turned on paid subscriptions, um,
I think three years ago, two years ago, three years ago. And at first, even though I had, like, you know, five or 10 paid subscriber or, you know, at, you know, you- Yeah... it starts small.
Um, I felt like so much pressure to make sure that they were giving, that I was giving them, like, enough value. And I, it, I still stress out about it. Like, am I... Like, someone is giving me their money.
Am I doing enough? Like, do, do they feel like they... Like, especially with the economy- I think-... being what it is, like-... your, your thousands of paid subscribers would, would say yes.
[laughs] And, and, and that certainly hel-...
Like, seeing that number and seeing the, you know, that people continue to re- renew, like, that feels to me like, okay, my quality is high, but it's still something that I think about all the time.
And when I notice that a, a typo makes it through, especially in the long edition, because it's like sometimes it'll be 4,000 words, and there's tons of TikTok embeds.
And so if I see something later that slipped in, I'm, I, I, like, really have a hard time not beating myself up over it. Like, mentally that I find that to be... Because I'm like, "They're paying me for this work." Yeah.
So I do think... And I, I've paid for some Substacks, and then they sort of fall off and don't continue publishing. Hmm. And I'm like, "But I paid you." Well, what the hell? Like, I- Yeah...
and, and there is sort of an a- assumption, and it, it, it's to-... Like, people go through stuff. Like, you're, you...
A lot of times if you're paying, you know, 50 bucks annually, you're doing that with the understanding that they may or may not continue.
But the hope and the expectation, especially o- once you've established a cadence, I think the same goes for podcasting, where it's like I know that Tasteless-Tasteland- Yeah... will come out every Wednesday morning, and
th- you have that sort of, like, built up, like, expectation. Trust and consistency. And then... Yeah. Yeah.
Like, I listen to How Long Gone because I, I walk my dog so much, and I know that there are gonna be new episodes Monday- Monday, Wednesday, Friday... Wednesday, Friday. Yeah.
And when they went on vacation, I was like, "Well, what am I supposed to listen to on my dog walk?" It's also, I could talk to you guys a lot about how hard it is to discover podcasts- Yeah...
that are inside o- of your interest, where it's like there's gotta be a million other podcasts along the lines of How Long Gone. Or- Yeah... you know, it, about, about taste, about- Yeah... zeitgeist, about culture.
And it's like how can I not find other podcasts about trends? I know they exist, but it, the platforms are to make it so hard to find.
I think Tasteland is a brilliant name for a podcast because it's like if someone is interested in zeitgeist taste, like culture, it's like immediately identifiable. Also, I think the logo's brilliant.
Because when you're, as I learned just in, in thinking about launching a podcast, l- you know, the, the logo matters so much- Mm-hmm...
where you wanna be able to, like, when I'm walking my dog, I wanna be able to tell, like, oh, without, like, getting too close- [laughs]... you know. The way it is. And so- Yeah... brilliant logo logo.
Logo was Francis, name was me. And then- It's a big clip... we both got really attached to the idea of licensing this specific MJ Lenderman song. And, uh- Oh, funny...
I actually got connected with his manager through Alex Goldman, another- Amazing... iconic podcaster. Podcaster. So thank you, Alex. And, um- Well- Yeah. Yeah.
No, I was gonna say, uh, it's probably about time to wrap up here, so, you know, if you wanna listen to that MJ Lenderman song, you're in luck. It's about to play. [laughs] And, uh, Casey also- Bump that...
just launched a very good podcast about the zeitgeist, uh, called After School, which also has a great logo. So go listen to it. Uh, thanks for coming on, Casey. Thanks, Casey. Thank you so much, guys.
[upbeat outro music] It tastes just like it costs. Tea, honey.