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[upbeat music] Welcome back to Tasteland. I am Francis Zehrer. And I'm Daisy Alioto. And Daisy, who are we speaking with today? Today we're speaking with Eliot Aronow.

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He's the host/producer of Minor Genius, a culture imprint that publishes zines, hosts parties, and occasionally produces very handsome neckties.

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Um, inside that, there's also a very discreet private studio where he works as an editor and co-conspirator with visible weirdos to ship finished artifacts.

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Um, as a visible weirdo, I am very excited to learn what that means. Visible weirdo. Uh-huh. [laughs] It's... [laughs] If you're gonna do that, you better have a joke lined up- [laughs]... let me tell you.

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That's going straight to the blooper reel. [laughs] No, I'm not.

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Uh, uh, so before we talk to Eliot, uh, the thing I wa- a thing I read yesterday that's, you know, the article of the last 24 hours that might be irrelevant already by the time this comes out, but I don't think it will, it was fun, um, was the, The Atlantic, McKay Coppins, he's the writer, The Atlantic gave him $10,000 to, to bet with.

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And, like, the reason they gave him $10,000 is he's Mormon, practicing Mormon.

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It would go against his religious principles to bet, but apparently it's okay, it's a little loophole, if it's just money his work gives him and he's only using this. Um, it's a long article.

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I read it before bed last night. I don't know how long it took me to read, but, like, the, the thing, they've got, like, the audio version at the top of the page, and that's, like, an hour and 10 minutes long.

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So it's a long read. Um, but I just wanna recommend it. Have you read it yet? No. Um, I was thinking we should have David Hill back on the podcast- I was-... to talk about it with him...

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this very same man was on my mind... because I did see, I saw a little bit of reaction- Mm-hmm... from him. I mean, I don't, I didn't form an opinion. What was the general sentiment that you saw?

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Uh, so what, my impression of the article myself was this is great. I mean, I broadly think that sports gambling, the proliferation of gambling apps on phones is, is bad.

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Um, I'm personally down probably, like, I think I've bet... If you go into my, um, FanDuel account, it's probably, like, $700 I've bet lifetime, and I'm probably down 100. Uh- Mm-hmm... it could be worse. But

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I, I thought it was a great read, and I, like, broadly agree with his sentiment that, like, it's bad that gambling apps are on phones. Um- Mm...

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what was more funny was logging on to the X app, uh, in my browser this morning and seeing professional gamblers, people who are in that world, uh, just totally dragging this article.

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Like, this one guy said, I'm gonna read this tweet, "He didn't lose 10K. You gave him a free 10K bankroll and told him he's not personally responsible for any issues."

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[laughs] "He's also ultra-religious, Mormon, and knew nothing about sports betting or gambling in general before this," and I quote, "assignment.

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At best, this was a poor representation of the sports betting experience by the general population. At worst, this was an experiment done in bad faith to try to paint the sports betting world in a bad light."

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Um, so that's what's been really interesting to me, is people who are deep in sports bet land, um, [lips smack] really just dragging this article. It's like, uh, to me it kinda proves the point.

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I mean, my takeaway is that sports gambling is in the same category as soaking for Mormons, where if, like, somebody else- [laughs]... is intervening, it's actually allowed.

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[laughs] I, I, I mean, I'm not gonna laugh 'cause I think that's [laughs] completely correct here. Um- You already laughed, so- Uh... game over. That's just my, that's just my, um, ever-present affect. You were nervous.

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[laughs] Yeah. You were nervous as soaking came up on Tasteland. [laughs] This is what? Like, our 69- [laughs] Is this our 69th episode? No, Daisy. That's so immature. It's, uh, our, like, 85th or something like that.

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All right. My bad. All right, so let's talk to- Well, anyway... [laughs] Send Eliot in. Let's send him in. Send in the troops. [upbeat music] What is Minor Genius?

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What does that mean? [laughs] Uh, do you want the what is it part first? Yeah, that works. Uh, y- yeah. [laughs] Cool.

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Yeah, so Minor Genius is a imprint where we put out zines and throw parties and produce artifacts, so physical things that can be mailed and kicked and, uh, hung up and passed around.

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And then that's kind of the polo version of the company.

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And then inside that, there's a very discreet one-on-one studio where I work with kind of, like, public weirdos to ship stuff like, you know, short films, magazines, fashion lines, which I guess if we're doing the Ralph metaphor is, like, more purple label.

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So- [laughs] Mm... uh, elite, sharp, expensive. [laughs] You're a big Ralph guy. As I was prepping for this, I noticed the, the name comes up a lot, uh, wherever you show up. I'm, I'm hooked.

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I, I mean, uh, I'm probably mangling the theory, but, um, w- w- I think it was maybe Marx. I'm gonna look really dumb if I don't get this right.

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But, like, basically this idea that objects are imbued with magic, uh, I really feel like Ralph is, is the greatest to ever imbue objects with magic. And, like- Mm...

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when I go in the store, no matter what year it is, like, I, I want everything. [laughs] What is- Yeah... your first memory of a zine? Like, do you remember the first time you encountered that type of object? Yes, I do.

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Um, [lips smack] so I'm not sure if this counts as a zine because I did buy it at Barnes & Noble, but I bought an issue of Maximum Rocknroll in 1995.

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Um, and just the fact that it was newsprint-y and smudgy and was filled with things that I didn't understand was, um, really exciting for me.At the time, 'cause like I think at this point I'm 15, so like I'm not really in like the punk scene yet 'cause no one I know drives.

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So I'd, I would say that was probably like the first mass market zine. And then when I was like 17, I started getting more into like, um, zines like Comet Bus and, um, and, and stuff like that.

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But yeah, I was a, I was a teenager. Hmm. Now, when was your first encounter with Ralph Lauren? Okay. Well, I can tell you my first encounter with not Ralph Lauren- [laughs]...

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because that might explain why I like him so much. Okay. I, I love this. So- We're gonna pack into it. [laughs] Yeah. So, um, I remember distinctly wanting the Ralph, um, polo shirt. Mm-hmm.

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But my parents at the time were like, "This is really like a lot of money, so we'll get you something that kinda looks similar." So I went to JCPenney, and I got a Hunt Club- Yeah...

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which is kind of like, um, the GoBots version of what should be Transformers. Like, it just kind of carries this like quiet sadness of like- [laughs]... not the real thing. Um, so that was like the contrast of Ralph.

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And then in terms of actual Ralph, um, there was a store near me called Vintage Image, and I bought a blue short sleeve polo shirt with very faint white and red stripes.

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And I remember at the time that I thought that it signaled being alternative,

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and I couldn't really place why, but it occurred to me a couple years ago that I thought it looked like the, the shirt that Kurt Cobain wears in the Smells Like Teen Spirit video- Hmm...

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which is a black shirt with white and... green and white stripes. So for some reason, I just associated [laughs] like striped PK cotton with being alternative.

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Um, but yeah, that was, that was my first, um, I would say like Ralph shirt with my own-ish money. Something- And- Okay. Go ahead. Sorry.

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I was just gonna say like in this time period, you were like, you were like punk curious, and you were looking at these alternative media sources, but you were also gravitating towards the Ralph Polo.

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You wanted the real thing. Was that... Were those contradictions to you at the time- Hmm... or were these both sort of subversive in your mind as like a teenager? Yeah. I, I think like, um...

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[lips smack] So I was born in Staten Island, which probably explains a lot about how I turned out. But I was born in Staten Island, and, uh, my family moved to New Jersey in 1991, and, uh, I had to go with them.

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And, uh, I experienced a lot of class anxiety, because in Staten Island, most people work for the city. Um, it's like, a- as you may or may not know, it's like teachers, firefighters, cops.

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Um, my parents are both teachers, so that explains that. But in New Jersey, I kind of had like just this felt sense that my parents did not have as rich people professions- Hmm... as those around me.

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And so clothing became a really, really important way for me to try and protect myself and show that I was down. Mm-hmm. Um, I really love the

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texture of your question, because this is something that I struggled with a lot, where, um, I've always just liked nice things, and I've always identified with underground culture.

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And a lot of people, like at the time, sorta didn't know where to place me, because I wasn't like a punk kid that wore like dirty sweatshirts with like things stapled to them or whatever.

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And so I was sort of this like person without a country, because, um, I obviously didn't like get down with the popular kids, but I did kinda like the way they dressed. I thought it looked good. [laughs] Yeah.

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This way... So I think a lot about legibility on the internet, right? And, you know, advice for like building a personal brand or like building any kind of brand online is- Mm-hmm... often like make it legible.

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People should be able to like understand what it is and- Mm-hmm... express what it is back to you, right? Yeah. But, um, the like kinda what you're describing is this tension.

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And even now, like looking at any of your surfaces on the internet, you are very specific and particular.

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And even now I hear you like saying some of the notes that you tend to express on all your platforms, like style is protection, right? This is one of your things.

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Um, and so I'm struck that like what you're explaining with this like tension between polo and punk zines and what we're talking about now is like it is, it's very legible, but like what's legible is also like a bit of an illegibility, a bit of like, it's like it's not one thing, it's multiple things, and it- Hmm...

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like refuses to be two things. Yeah, I'm, I'm interested in that as a brand, like legible but like contrasting. Hmm. [lips smack] Uh, well, I think for me, legibility is

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felt more than understood. Hmm. And I think with Minor Genius, um, it's kind of like intentionally self-selecting, in that

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if you like the font or the zines or you like being around other people who will probably compliment your loafers, then they're all...

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Ev- everybody is welcome-But we don't really change, like, the texture or the shape of what we do and how we do it to, like, accommodate it.

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I guess, like, to use a sort of, I don't know, a more easy metaphor, it's like the door is always open, but we're not gonna rearrange the furniture in the room so that you feel more comfortable. Mm-hmm. That makes sense.

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I mean, that relates to a Substack post from August that Francis and I were looking at called Our Legacy Panic: What Happens When You Outgrow Your Audience. Yeah. Um,

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and you're sort of talking about people who are public-facing, who have built up an audience of the wrong people.

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Like, at some point, there's a flip in the dynamic between this person and their audience where the audience, the audience starts to accrue some resentment towards the, the platform- Mm-hmm...

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that you've created, that you've... maybe you've outgrown them or more people have come in.

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I saw this when I worked at HODINKEE, which is, um, for people that don't know, it's, like, a watch magazine, and it was a watch retailer for a bit, then it went back [chuckles] to being just a magazine.

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Um, there was a core audience of watch nerds, like self-professed watch nerds, um, that Ben Clymer... You know, they were the core reader of Ben Clymer.

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They created, you know, the initial buzz around his writing about watches, and then as the brand grew, in order to, like, sustain that growth, they had to reach people who were kind of just, like, casual watch enthusiasts- Mm-hmm...

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and, um, or somebody who, like, never really paid attention to watches and then, you know, made their first big paycheck and just went straight to the Rolex store and sort of were retroactively trying to learn about things.

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So there's, like, a ton of tension there. Mm-hmm. Um, and I would love to know more about how you observed this phenomenon that you were writing about. Like, did this- Mm...

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happen to you, and, like, how do you coach people to prevent this from happening to them? Hmm, um, well, I don't do any coaching, so, um, I'm not sure that I can help people, like, directly in terms- Mm-hmm... of advice.

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But, um, the Beastie Boys and Nirvana were both really big deals for me as a kid, and, um, just to give, like, a little music lore- [chuckles]...

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right now, uh, you know, the Beastie Boys famously had this reputation after Licensed to Ill for being these, like, idiot jock, you know, like, sexist, stupid people, and they sort of went out of their way with Paul's Boutique to, like, kill that version of themselves.

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Of course, Nirvana and Kurt Cobain very famously, like, kinda was this guy who grew up and said, "Man," like, "the kids that used to beat me up, like, now they...

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like, they come to my shows, and they wear band T-shirts." Um, so I think, again, just when you're living in a time, you can't help but absorb, like, what's in the air in, in the arts and in culture.

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So I think very early there was just this, like, early warning system of, "Hey, just do this with a certain focus and particularity," because the last thing that you would want is to get big as, like, a caricature of yourself.

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Hmm. Um, and I think now, you know, like, uh, I, I have a lot of friends that make money, um, showing up regularly on the internet and interpreting things and talking and being visible.

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And I think a part of me, like, always wanted that, but then the- Hmm... other part was kind of, like, unwilling to contort myself into that, to use your word, Francis, that legible shape too soon.

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Mm-hmm. You know? Um, yeah, so I, I think that's, that's kind of it, and I think a lot of folks struggle with that is, like, you,

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you want to express, you wanna be in the mix, you wanna be in the culture, but there's a lot of invisible costs that go along with that that I think just need to be a little bit considered. This is...

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Th- this reminded me of something, just really quick, this, uh... like, what you just said about, like, not wanting to make yourself too legible too soon. I might have brought this up on here before, but, like, it...

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I, I think about it all the time. There's this book I read in college, this cultural anthropology class, called Number Our Days: Culture and Community Among Elderly Jews in an American Ghetto, and it takes place...

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It's, like, the, the writer, um, Jewish anthropologist, she wanted to go to s- go study aging, and she was gonna go do it in Mexico. Um, but she goes, and they're kinda like, "Why don't you study your own people?"

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And she's like, "Oh, shit," like, "why don't I study my own people?" [chuckles] So she goes to this retirement home, and, uh, Barbara Meyerhoff, that's the, the author.

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But there's this line that I'll never forget where she's talking to this, this guy, this older gentleman. He's, like, 1960s or '70s. Um, and he says, like, "I don't want you to write about me." Like, "I don't...

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like, I don't want to have, like, a pin stuck in me because then I feel like I can't roll because, like...

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and then e- if anybody reads this about me, then they'll have this certain definition of me, and I won't be able to shake it. Like, i- if you- Hmm... once you, once you put a pin in me, I can't, I can't roll." Um,

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which we don't need to keep reading into that, but I, I just love, I just love that idea, and I think about it every, like, month.

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Yeah, well, I, I think, um, the stuff that I've always loved and, and organized my life around, both professionally and creatively, it's moved through culture in, like, weirder and more unexpected ways.

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Like, all the stuff that I, I think I'm attracted to and what I like in other people's work is a sort of rejection of, like, literalism. Hmm.

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To maybe bring it back to, like, the pun- the preppy punk tension is, like, you know, uh, rejecting jock culture-Like, fully, like with every millimeter of my being, but also being like, "Oh, man, I really love the way that Oxford looks.

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Like, the collar roll- [laughs]... is just so good, and like what an amazing shade of yellow." You know? Not quite daffodil, not, not quite pastel, but just, you know, like... So it's, it's [laughs]

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I, I sort of like things that are, I don't know, neith- neith... Instead of like either/or, it's like neither/both. Mm. Mm. You work, you have been organizing this reading series at Nightclub 101- Mm-hmm...

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where you're specifically seeking out people that haven't read in public before. Yeah.

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And that feels related to this a little bit as well, the way that we define ourselves in public, the way that we write about ourselves- Mm... or allow others to write about us.

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Can you explain a little bit, like, can you explain the genesis of that project? Yeah.

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Well, y- you know, I think, like a lot of people, um, my friends and I were really let down by the last [laughs] four or five years just on so many levels.

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And, uh, I think it's very hard to live in New York if you don't have high hopes. Mm-hmm.

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Um, and so th- the people that, um, I was talking to about doing these events or potentially participating, we are kind of just like, "Why don't we be the thing that we wish existed?" Mm-hmm.

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And instead of doing what everyone else does and what we're prone to do, which is, like, complaining about it and criticizing, you know, like, all these people that we think are lame, let's just create our own little autonomous city state for a couple hours.

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And, uh, maybe to bring it back to the very first question about, you know, Minor Genius or kind of like the ethos behind it, you know,

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I, I think that you don't need to be, like, a vetted professional to earn the right to have a voice in the culture. You don't need someone to say that you're good to be a musician.

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You don't need to, you know, have the style industry co-sign your work and decide that you're an influencer. Mm.

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And so I love the idea of getting people who had an appetite to read, but probably would've felt very alienated by a traditional serious literary reading, you know?

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I mean, that's why we do it at Nightclub 101 and we don't do it at, like, McNally. Yeah.

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Can, is there a particular moment that has come out of the series where you were like, "This, this is, like, exactly the ethos that I'm trying to cultivate here"? Yeah.

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I think when people came back for the second one, and I didn't- Mm... know, like, three-quarters of the people in the room- Mm... that's sort of when I knew it was clicking. Yeah.

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Um, you know, you can point to little moments, of course, where someone said a, a killer line or, you know, like, the door creaked in this weird way, and, like, everyone sort of knew it was ruining the moment but was also perfect.

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There's of course all that stuff when you're, when you're throwing events and, and working with, like, a live room. But this woman came up to me afterwards.

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I was, I was selling my zines at the merch table, and she just said what I thought was, like, the best thing ever, which was, "The coolest person in my office went to the first one and told me that I had to come and check out this one."

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That's so cool. So I was like, man, like, if the coolest person in your office is, is resonating with this, and, and so much so that you decided to, like, leave the house on a Thursday,

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walk to the middle of Avenue A, which, you know, is... It's the furthest away from any train. 7th Street, so I mean, you're really like, you're making a big commitment. It's not like, you know, 2nd and 1st, fine.

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You know, it's only a block away from the F. But this is like- Edge of the universe... this is, this, yeah, this is, you went all the way to the middle to come and, uh, and be a part of this.

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So one thing I know that when we were emailing, you wanted to talk about scenes versus audiences. Like, this to me feels like an example of that.

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Like, an audience is the people who showed up for the first one maybe- Mm... and then a scene is, like, it spreading and then you not knowing people. S- tell, s- talk more about this, scene versus audience. Yeah.

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I think to me, audience is more consumptive and passive, and scene is more messy, and there's higher voltage and more personalities.

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And I think that seeing the same weird people over and over again is a very, very successful formula for life.

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Uh, is what I loved about the punk scene coming up is same people every, for, for better or worse. But like- [laughs]... that, that [laughs]

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but, uh, the same people over and over again I think creates a certain harmony in the nervous system and in the social fabric that I think is really special. Um, I get this- Mm... at jujitsu.

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Uh, I see the same people every, I mean, four times a week, and there's just that feeling of like, "Oh yeah, like, we all chose to be here." Also- Mm... I, I think of audiences

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as these sort of, uh, separated people in, on phones doing stuff. Mm. Whereas in- Mm... I think of a scene as, "Hey, I, I met you at this party. I found out that you're a photographer. Guess what?

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I actually need to shoot this thing next week." Like- Mm...

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there's been a lot of pollination at all these Minor Genius events where people have found their next-Sound engineer, um, the next writer for their, uh, magazine who was looking for a story.

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Um, there's probably some romantic rendezvous that I'm- I'm not privy to. But- [laughs]... to me, that's the biggest difference, is, um, a scene requires effort and energy and inconvenience, whereas- Mm...

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and I think an audience, uh, doesn't really h- it doesn't ask any of those things. So I think the return is, like, a little bit more like warm Pepsi. How did you- Yeah... get into jujitsu? Like, you moved to New Jersey.

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Uh, uh, did this happen when you were, you were still young, or is this- [laughs]... an adult hobby? [laughs] This is like a, I started when I was 42, so this is three year- [laughs]... three years ago. Okay.

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It's a midlife, it's a midlife journey. It, yes. Uh- Midlife journey. [laughs] Very quickly, uh, I was working with someone and said, "You know, uh, Els, you're, you're a very sensitive, emotionally literate person.

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Um, I think you should do something that, like, goes against all that and is, like, very aggressive and physical and, uh, just sort of, like, rowdy."

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And so I asked my friends, I said, "What is the best jujitsu studio in New York?" And all them said, "You gotta go to Clockwork Jujitsu on Broadway.

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It's, like, all the punks, and all the fashion people, and all the weirdos go there. You're gonna love it." And I just, I caught the bug, you know. Um, I also just think it's, um,

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it's very rare to get a place where you can just fail over and over again. Mm. And I mean, I'm, I'm three years into this, and I've probably gone from, like, excruciatingly, bleedingly terrible to, like,

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maybe just, like, very terrible. And that's in three years. Like, I, I went, like, a decimal point over towards, like, not being that bad. Would you say you're doing purple label jujitsu now?

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[laughs] I, I mean, my own jujitsu, personally, I would have to say is probably more chaps. That's okay. Mm. You're gonna get there. It's, it's the, it's, yeah.

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It's, it's definitely the budget, like, you're just getting going. In, in fact, I mean, I resist wearing the really ornate, like, awesome gis because I, I don't feel- Mm... like I've earned it.

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Like, I, I wear very basic, like, just black and white. Like, okay, you know. 'Cause, um, the gis are really coming out hot these days, you know.

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I think that there's, like, become this almost, like, streetwear-ish mentality. Mm-hmm. Uh, there's a brand called Show Your Roll, S-H-O-Y-O-R-O-double L, um, that's become very, very coveted on the secondary market.

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Mm-hmm. Um, which is a little disturbing when you think about, like, the idea of wearing a secondhand gi. Yeah.

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[laughs] But, but, but hey, you know, I, I mean, i- i- again, you know, it's, it's imbued with that capitalist magic. Before we get off the scene topic, I know, yeah, Daisy, I wanna, I wanna ask you a question. Okay.

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Um, the Dirt Books, you did a lot of press for Dirt Books- Mm-hmm... this week. One of the books, there's two books that you are launching with, one of them is a zine book. Can you, can you talk about this for a second?

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Yeah. Well, the word zine is in the title because the, the book was published, the first side of the book, which we're treating as, we're calling it side A- Mm-hmm. Mm...

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um, was self-published under the title Tattooed, Pierced and Fucked Up.

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But all of the stuff that's being added to side A, and some of the stuff inside side A, is really, uh, anthropology of the, the Warped Tour era of a certain style of music.

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And we wanted a way to indicate p- to people that were coming to it fresh that this isn't just Lauren's personal story. It's actually an accounting through one person's eyes of these years, you know, 2004 through 2008.

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And so we came up with the encapsulation zine memoir because that felt like the most accurate way to describe it. Mm-hmm.

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But my relationship to the word zine is I think it's a really useful word for all of the reasons that you expressed.

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Um, but I also think there's a tipping point at which a zine can attract too many people who are interested in proximity to that zine- Mm-hmm...

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and not the values of their cultural production or the fandom that first brought that group of people together. Mm-hmm.

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Um, and I think, like, in those moments a fracturing happens, and it's kind of like a dying star, and new little zines are formed. But it did, it is funny that, like, I think Lauren has a, uh,

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doesn't have a completely positive relationship to that word either, but it was still the best word that we could come up with, and we looked at a lot of different versions of this subtitle to encapsulate what this book is.

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And I think if people have strong reactions to the word zine, um, that will be a good thing for the book because that tension is in the book itself. Mm. Yeah. I mean, I remember coming up,

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you know, um, in the underground punk, you know, hardcore scene in the mid-'90s. Pretty much everyone that I knew either took photos, published a zine, was in a band, book shows, uh,

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had a label. I mean, it was a very, very participatory culture. And zinester

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k- was a very, like, derogatory term that people would use to describe, I think, maybe their unnamed jealousy of people that maybe had derived a minor amount of clout from actually doing the grunt work that no one-Appreciates.

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Like people would be like, "Oh, that guy, he's like, he does the shows every week. Like, what a scenester." And I was like,

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man, even, you know, at 17 I was like, "This is the dumbest thing to criticize [laughs] somebody for." It's like, it's like nobody's making any money.

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Like, you're always at risk of like the cops coming, or a noise violation, or just something going wrong. And like, without this, like, you, you don't have anything to do on a Saturday afternoon.

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So yeah, I mean, I, I, I agree. I, I think that, um, s- scene gets weird 'cause I think underneath it, it, it touches on all these delicate like who gets to belong- Hmm... are these my people? Do I feel safe here?

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Is this my scene? Is this your scene? Do I feel seen by the scene? Do I... [laughs] Well, there, there's something to me here about like the idea of being a joiner.

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And when we were talking earlier about like maybe rejecting like jock culture, I feel like as, when I was a kid, a teen, you know, it's like you think of jock culture as this joiner culture or like- Yeah...

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you know, other things. Like going to like some, a study group after school, anything like this, like that's a joiner culture. Mm-hmm.

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And then something like punk culture maybe, in my mind at least, that didn't, like that's not joiner culture.

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But what you're talking about, about being a scenester, that's being a joiner, like a participant, a, a doer, right? Rather than just being a spectator. Um- Mm-hmm...

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but it's in this like, it's just like finding, like that, that's, I guess that's just what maybe youth culture is, is like finding the thing that you're comfortable joining that doesn't feel like you're being a joiner in this pejorative sense, right?

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Yeah. I mean, I, I think, uh, who doesn't wanna join a amateur cult at some point? [laughs] You know?

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I think it's a lot of fun, and it gives you, um, access to friends and new information, and I think maybe most importantly like an identity that

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just feels like more easy to, to be inside of than perhaps the one that you had before, which I think probably up until you're like 10 is just like

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whatever people tell you, like, that's like kinda what you are, you know? Mm-hmm. And then you start, uh, without getting too psychological here, you know, you start individuating. Mm-hmm.

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You have to do that a lot as a grown-up, you know? Yeah. Like, like you have to individuate out of your, you know, prestige era. You have to individuate out of your 20s. You have to individuate out of,

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you know, all, all this other stuff that like sorta gets a little dense and sticky if you don't, you know, burn it down. [laughs] Yeah, I like that.

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You mentioned Nirvana, but what were some of the other bands that brought you into this world in the '90s? Ooh.

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Um, you know, I, I think I've had to live a lot of my life, um, reconciled to the fact that like I wasn't a Beastie Boy. [laughs] But, um, they for me were the, the,

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like the Don Dada archetype of what I wanted to inhabit. Uh, maybe there's the Jewish tri-state area connection, but I, I think, um,

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you know, I got into them like right as Check Your Head was cresting. Um, so on Friday nights, um, we would go ice skating at the town next to where I lived. It was called Old Bridge. Mm. And they had a ice skating rink.

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The ice skating rink only played one CD, which was Van Halen's Greatest Hits. [laughs] Uh, which was very punishing.

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[laughs] But, uh, my neighbor Kenny, he had a older brother who could drive, and in the car back and forth every time, they just played Check Your Head over, and over, and over again.

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And I think for me, like it was cool to see something that was like popular enough where like other people knew what it was, but also felt like it was mine. Hmm.

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Like, there was stuff that was popular, but I didn't feel like, "Oh, this is, this is my thing. This is, this is like what I'm really into." Like, Pearl Jam was never that band for me, you know?

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But the, the Beasties both felt m- kind of like mass and underground at the same time. Um, and, and so that, that was a big one for me. And then, um, I mean, if you wanna go, can we get like nerdy nerdy? Of course.

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Please. Yeah. So I mean, like most people I, I had to settle for like a mid-'90s version of like what I thought was cool. So I had to cycle through like a little bit of like Primus and 311- Mm...

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to get to like the real shit. But, um, in 1996 my friend Ivan got his license, and Ivan was, uh, a year older and like really, really, really, really cool.

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Um, for all of you Dime Square kids, he was the, s- might still be, I think he's the bartender at Clandestino. Oh, I knew this. I was gonna say, where's Ivan now? [laughs] Ivan, Ivan Berko is a, he's become a- Mm...

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a very successful DJ and music producer. But like- Mm-hmm... Ivan was super cool. Ivan had the Velvet Underground box set. Like, Ivan was- How was he dressing back then? He was dressing awesome.

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[laughs] He was dressing, he was dressing in ringer tees, and sort of shitty, like a little like, not quite baggy, but like not quite fitting Levi's, and probably I'm gonna go with like...

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We're gonna say like some Converse One Stars. Mm. Mm. Which were like hyper Cobain-coded at the time, 'cause those were, you know, the, the, the famous Cobain shoes.

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So in around '96, Ivan got me into like very underground hardcore. Uh, there was a label called Gravity, um, which was sort of like the-The Motown of, like, hipster screamo music.

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Um, and that stuff really spoke to me 'cause it was, like, super fashion forward. All these kids looked like they were trying to dress like The Jam in, like, 1978, but, like, through, like, a, a '90s, uh, lens.

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So it's, like, really, really tight, uh, Levi's polyester pants. Uh, the white belt, which later- Mm-hmm... kinda graduated into, like, the yeah, yeah, yeah Strokes indie sleaze look, but started back then.

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Um, what used to be called, like, the Spock rock haircut, so that really severe dyed black bangs, um, look. You know, super tight shirts. Uh, and I, I just, uh, I fell in love with it.

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I just thought it was the hippest shit 'cause- Mm-hmm... in Jersey, the hardcore scene was very much not that. It was, it was much more like, "I'm straight edge, I'm vegan. Like, you're wrong, blah," you know?

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And this was more [laughs] like, I don't know, it felt like it was, like, the Island of Misfit Toys. Mm-hmm. Can we go... So we've been talking about a lot of '90s artifacts. Can we talk about some 2020s artifacts?

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What are you, what are you... You're an, you're an artifacts enthusiast, self-identified. Yeah. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Uh, what are you enthused about right now, current artifacts?

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Ooh, um, one of my favorite things is this underground fashion zine called Hank's Americana- Mm... that just put out, I think, their fifth issue. Um, the dude Henry, Henry Fisher is his name, um,

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works at Ralph, uh, as his day job, but really I think has a interesting,

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kind of like imagine, um, Grateful Dead parking lot stoner vibes meets, like, a person who grew up in Texas wearing, like, Ivy League clothes. So, like, there, there...

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It's not like me where there was, like, a class cosplay element. It was more like people around him really wore chinos and loafers and, like, you know, salmon pants and that kinda stuff. Mm-hmm.

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Um, but I think the styling is terrific. It's funny. It's, like, sort of like a big subtle fuck you to, like, everything that I don't like about menswear, and I think Henry doesn't like about menswear.

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So, um, I think that's terrific. Um, I'm a really big fan of The Culture Journalist. Um, I consider a podcast to be an artifact even though it is- Certainly... tech- technically, like, it's online. You can't kick it.

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Yeah. [laughs] We... I- If we could find a podcast that kicked, I mean, I would be- [laughs] If I could just mail someone a podcast, it'd be very... [laughs] Mm-hmm. We're working on the technology, Eliot. Thank you.

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Yes. [laughs] I, I, I, I wanna reverse engineer, like, I guess, like, zeros and O's into, like, I don't know, wood grain and silk. Mm. Yeah. You know, for actually, for...

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We're doing a partnership, Taslin's doing a partnership with FIFA, uh, so for the upcoming World, World Cup [laughs] we're, we're preloading- It's not true... our podcasts [laughs] onto all the soccer balls. Um, sorry.

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That's not true. I wish that was true. [laughs] If they have any money left. A podcast you can kick. Well, I- That'd be good...

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I've gotta get my hands on Hank's Americana because I think my husband would be really into that. It, I think, it strikes me that also a lotta times what's subversive is contextual. Mm.

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And my husband grew up on a prep school campus 'cause his dad was a member of the faculty. Mm. And so he, of course, you know, went through a period where he was wearing, like, a drug rug.

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'Cause, like, the most subversive thing you could do in that environment is, you know, run in the other direction of preppy. But if you were, you in a, in a sort of anti-prep scene- Mm-hmm...

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I think there is a certain type of... I mean, that's why you have punk rockers in polo shirts too. Oh, yes. Because it's the opposite of what everyone else is doing. Yeah.

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And I think also a- again, for me, like, style and, and those sort of artifacts that revolve around, like, kinda what you're wearing, to me are just, like, shorthand for your worldview. Mm-hmm.

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I, I mean, I, a part of me really wishes I wasn't this person, but at the risk of sounding a little jerky, um, I've always decoded people and perhaps assessed the likeliness that we might be friends based on what they were wearing.

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Certainly. Yeah. Can you say more? You were saying, um, that the, the magazine represented everything, was like a fuck you to everything you hate about menswear. Can you say what some of those things you hate are?

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Yeah, let's talk about our hates. [laughs] Yeah. Well, first off, you know, I, I, I'm a former tie designer as well as a two-time recovering men's fashion expert for both Playboy and GQ.

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So I, I say this critique from a place of love. From inside the belly of the beast. Yes. Uh, what do I hate about menswear? Well, I, I hate that it's very overly studied. I hate the fact that, um, I think

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the things that bring you attention online in the menswear scene [laughs] are actually the exact opposite of what I think, like, actual personal style looks like. Mm.

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And again, I know that's a little bit of, like, algorithmic logic [laughs] that we all know, where it's like the more loud and severe and, uh, self-announcing it is, the more likely it is to, you know, track online.

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Uh, but I, I don't know. I, I, again, I... This is, like, so hard for me because, um, I got made fun of and, like-Kind of beaten up a lot for being a kid who was really into clothes and not performing- Yeah...

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traditional masculinity. So a part of me, like, I love the fact that it's so okay now for guys to be into clothes.

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I mean, this was not the case when I was, like, styling and profiling in 1996, or even in, in 2002 for that matter. You know?

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Um, so again, I, it's, it's weird to diss it because overall I think it's a really healthy thing. But- Mm-hmm...

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I mean, look, you know, i- it's, like, I can't help but have just, like, a visceral, like, ugh-ness when, like, you see someone, like, unboxing shoes and be like- Yeah... "Thanks, fam." I'm just like, "All right, sick."

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Like, I mean, I get sent free shoes, too, so again, it's, this is such... You can see how- Well, wait. Something-... conflicted I am in real time about all of this. [laughs] Let me, let me paraphrase you.

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Let me paraphrase you back to you.

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I was listening to you on another podcast, uh, before this, and you said something about, like, you are much more interested in, like, what you can notice about a person's clothing from one foot away rather than a mile away, which is just saying, like, you're more interested in, like, those subtle details and, you know, maybe bits of quality.

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Like, "Oh, is this a nice cut? Is this, is this a nice fabric?" Rather than, "Oh, I'm wearing the big, bright, loud shoe," or whatever, right? Yeah.

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I, I think also, like, in culture, you gotta know when to hold them and know when to fold them. And there's a lot of swaths of menswear that I just sat out- Mm... and kept doing my thing.

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Like, I, [laughs] I never gorped. I never drop-crotched. [laughs] I never normcore'd. Uh, and I think, like, to me that, you know, I'm 45, so, like, for me, like,

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I'm interested in, like, really annoying particular things. Like, I tried... I had a...

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We had a, a, a Minor Genius clothing swap last week where I invited a bunch of us to get together at my friend's apartment, and everyone just brought, like, a grip of things, and we just, we just sort of played dress up.

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Um, it was gate kept for short kings. [laughs] Just 'cause... [laughs] No, not out of, uh... You know, we didn't, we didn't want it to be like that. It's a practical affair.

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Correct, because if you're gonna do a swap and you can only invite six people 'cause it's a small apartment, you need the sizing to, you know, to get going. But

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when I looked at the stuff that I gave away, [laughs] I was like, "You might have become, like, a crazy person." 'Cause I was like, "What don't you like?" It's like,

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"The rise on these pants is, like, inch and a half too, too short. It's, like- Yeah... not, not working." Or, like, "I think the pockets, they don't want flaps.

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They, they wanna be open, so this, this blazer's, like, no more." Or, like, "What about this rugby?" It's like, "Ah,

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you know, the, the collar of it is this, like, flannel material, so it, it, like, it looks floppy and sloppy. I don't want that. I wish it was a corduroy collar, 'cause then- Mm... it would lay nicer." I, I mean,

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it's slightly embarrassing to admit how much thought I give into all these things, so again, this is why I can't knock the, the sort of menswear people, because I, I suffer from the same disease that they do, you know?

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But- Yeah... I do think that, like- Just a different mutation. [laughs] I don't know. Like, also, like,

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imagine just, like, being an alien person teleported down and you looked at, like, a menswear influencer's content for a day and be like, "Okay." [laughs] Uh, I...

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You had someone on, on your pod recently who talked about this, like, the agony of trying to document...

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I think the, the anecdote was along the lines of, like, someone walked around for a half hour [laughs] trying to find a way to document their day.

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And I was like, imagine an alien comes down, it's like, okay, so you put the camera down on the ledge. [laughs] You sort of walk, [laughs] you walk out. You do, like, a half turn.

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You, like, you do, like, a little shuck to, to show the draping of the fabric. And, [laughs] and then your video is... I mean, I don't know. I just, I, I just find it, like- I'm trying to remember who that was.

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Do you remember, Francis? Oh. It wa- I believe- I remember the anecdote. I believe the person worked at Highsnob. Oh. Oh. Was it Claire? I think so. I think so. Yeah, yeah. I guess it could have been Claire.

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Um- That's, that was a fun episode... knowing when to hold them and when they- to fold them is really, I think, a great encapsulation of Tasteland. And so I think it's also a perfect place to end.

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But thank you so much for coming on. Thank you. It's been a delight. Great. Well, thank you so much. And, uh, great to be here. Um, do you call your audience the, the Tasters? I was, I was cur- the, the Landlubbers?

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Uh, who, who's the, uh- [laughs] Landlubbers is a new one. I know. It's a little- Tasties? Taste... I think Tasties- The Tasties... is cute. Tasteheads. Well, Tasties, Taste Testers, you can tell us.

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We'll see you next week. Ciao. All right. Thank you. [outro music]