WEBVTT 1 00:00:00.080 --> 00:00:14.160 [rock music] Honey. It tastes just like it comes. And I just think that's really nice. Does it get him a job? Uh, he... 2 00:00:14.320 --> 00:00:29.190 Okay, uh, don't, uh, skip ahead 15 seconds if you're reading Karl Ove Knausgård's, uh, Wolves of Eternity. Um, okay, they've skipped ahead. He gets a job, uh, as an undertaker's assistant. Huge. Yeah. It is, it is huge. 3 00:00:29.200 --> 00:00:42.430 Yeah, so that's the possible outcome. Yeah. Don't we all wish to have that as our summer job at 19? Yeah, I'm sure, I'm sure it smelt crazy in there. Yeah. [laughs] Um... [laughs] Formaldehyde, great smell. Yeah, yeah. 4 00:00:42.430 --> 00:00:54.350 Uh, anyways. Well, look, the perfume, the niche perfume girlies, they're gonna find a way to make that- Mm-hmm... hot. Um, the Fragrantica girlies. Actually, um, at FWB Fest, which I talked- Mm... 5 00:00:54.400 --> 00:01:08.500 about on the last episode, this is the festival I just came back from, I ran into Maxwell, who runs UFO Parfums. UFO, mm-hmm. And did our collaboration with Arena and UFO around this perfume, Knop. 6 00:01:08.660 --> 00:01:17.280 And Maxwell was wearing Knop. Oh. So it was fun to run into them. That's so awesome. And they were like, "I'm wearing Knop." And I was like, "Come over here. [laughs] I wanna smell you." Um- [laughs]... 7 00:01:17.290 --> 00:01:26.320 because, you know, it smells different on everyone. Um- Yeah. It wasn't like- And- It wasn't like a pie on the windowsill thing where you're like, you smelled it, and you're like... No. I don't know. 8 00:01:26.360 --> 00:01:33.180 I think, like- Something subtle... Maxwell said that to me as, like the first thing. So I th- I think I sorta smelled it- Mm... as they told me. Mm-hmm. And then their partner, Sophia, was there. 9 00:01:33.220 --> 00:01:42.090 Sophia was also wearing Knop. So I was like, "Well, now I have to smell you," 'cause it smells a little different on everyone. But this is my first time meeting her, so I was like, "Can I smell you?" Yeah. 10 00:01:42.100 --> 00:01:54.560 Which in retrospect... It's like, that's what dogs do, you know? And it's... So that's nice. I'm not better than a dog, really. [laughs] You're no better than a dog. I'm not better than them. No. Um, okay, I, I, I do... 11 00:01:54.590 --> 00:02:06.260 At the end of the last episode, I was talking about how I wanted to talk about music festivals on the topic of FWB. Yeah. I have not been to a music festival for probably a decade. But they were like... 12 00:02:06.320 --> 00:02:18.020 So growing up in northern California, like, you know, in the middle of nowhere, bands I wanted to see when I was, like, getting into music, into, like, you know, modern music in high school after my classic rock middle school era, naturally. 13 00:02:18.120 --> 00:02:23.730 Um, none of the bands I was getting interested in would, like, come through here. There's, like, a college here, but it's so small. 14 00:02:24.260 --> 00:02:34.090 So I, like, when I learned about Outside Lands Music Festival down in San Francisco, I think it had only been going for, like, two or three years at that point. Uh, I think I first went in, like, 2010 or 2011. 15 00:02:34.880 --> 00:02:41.200 But it was so cool to go down there, um, and then, and, and just, like, see all these bands at once and be exposed to it. 16 00:02:41.240 --> 00:02:54.220 And, like, you know, so many formative memories, and, like, twisting my ankle, and, you know, choosing to see, uh, Justice over Neil Young, et cetera. Um, anyways, I, I was thinking about- Good choice... 17 00:02:54.230 --> 00:03:00.250 good, good choice. Well, I, I did see Neil Young, actually, this spring at the Forest Hills- Mm... um, Stadium in Queens. Mm-hmm. 18 00:03:00.400 --> 00:03:11.019 Which was really cool, but it's, it's one of those [laughs] things too where it's like I'm kinda checking it off, 'cause I'm like, you know... Who opened? Um, I don't remember. It was, like- Oh, so you had a good time. 19 00:03:11.060 --> 00:03:17.179 I had a good time. Well, I had a good time. Yeah. Um, it w- the best thing, I think the best one was, was when he did, uh, Down By The River. 20 00:03:17.220 --> 00:03:29.549 But, um, anyways, just thinking of, like, music festivals as this, like, curation thing, 'cause for me, like, that was what I was buying. I was like, "This is so worth..." Like, you know, I was, like, 15 or whatever. 21 00:03:29.620 --> 00:03:39.870 It's, like, a 200-some dollar ticket. That's, like, so much of my, like, summer income. Um, but it was, like, so worth it, so efficient, 'cause I'm like, "I get to see all these people, and, like, learn about new bands." 22 00:03:39.920 --> 00:03:46.600 'Cause this is, like, pre-Spotify. I mean, it's, I guess Spotify existed, but it was, like, both a way to discover new music, to see the people I really liked. 23 00:03:47.120 --> 00:03:52.680 Um, and I didn't really think about it at the time as, like, such this important curat- curation thing. 24 00:03:53.030 --> 00:04:02.540 And then even, like, within the scheduling of a music festival, how they're, like, curating it, so, like, oh, the people who come in with this t- you know, to curate it so, like, the crowd isn't too big at one or the other. 25 00:04:03.040 --> 00:04:12.870 Uh, which I'm thinking about, like, uh, Chappell Roan at Lollapalooza, like, a, a week or two ago, where they had to, like, change it, so it was like Kesha had to take, like, a lesser slot, so Chappell Roan- Mm... 26 00:04:12.900 --> 00:04:25.940 could do it. And then there was the aerial shot of, like, I don't know, 70,000 people. But I, I guess in the context of FWB, which is, like, such a, you know, tastemaker's summit, like- Yeah, it's 1,200 tickets sold. 27 00:04:26.020 --> 00:04:30.570 1,200, which is a little. But I don't know that there's 1,200 people there. I would say it was- Yeah... probably closer to 1,000. Wow. 28 00:04:30.620 --> 00:04:34.840 Yeah, I mean, I think we're really talking about music as curated taste, or music festivals- Mm... 29 00:04:34.850 --> 00:04:43.810 curated taste, which I think was sort of lost in the age of, like, music festival is now, like, a branding opportunity- Yeah... or a marketing opportunity. 30 00:04:43.860 --> 00:04:47.020 And I think that that's something that people are really missing. 31 00:04:47.100 --> 00:04:57.000 Like, I've, I've read some writing about returning to these more niche music experiences, because at the same time, we have all of this discourse about- With capped ticket sales. 32 00:04:57.080 --> 00:05:06.420 Yeah, but, like, people do wanna experience things IRL. Like, there is all this conversation about the loss of third spaces, and- Mm-hmm... or the perceived loss of third spaces. 33 00:05:06.460 --> 00:05:15.940 Like, a music festival is an opportunity to get together with your community, but, like- Yeah... how much of a community can it be if you, like, have to walk past, like, 34 00:05:16.980 --> 00:05:25.850 you know, eight pop-up brand activations- Brand mannequins, yeah... that don't really... that have, like, a tenuous relation to the culture that's actually being created. Mm-hmm. 35 00:05:25.860 --> 00:05:37.250 The Pabst Blue Ribbon AR Apple Vision prototype. Yeah, like, you know, thank you for the Snapchat filter, Hennessy, or whatever. [laughs] Yeah, yeah. Yeah. 36 00:05:37.380 --> 00:05:48.490 I think, like, I, I, I don't know the numbers, but I'd be curious to know if there's, like, more or less music festivals now than there was a decade ago, or, like, what the average attendance for music festivals are. 37 00:05:48.590 --> 00:05:57.300 'Cause for me, it was, like, such a thing you do as a teenager, 'cause then you move to, or you know, you being me, then I moved to, like, Portland, Oregon, and all the bands I wanted to see come through there. 38 00:05:57.700 --> 00:06:10.772 So then it's like I just pick... It's such a better experience, right? To, like, go to a-... specific artist show than to, like, pay $300 to go see the one artist you wanna see at a music festival. So I don't know. 39 00:06:10.812 --> 00:06:23.662 That- I guess that's, like, why I stopped. Um, yeah. Well, I think W. David Marx would say there's more of everything, but more of it is kitsch. Mm. So it feels like there's less interesting stuff. Yeah. 40 00:06:23.792 --> 00:06:40.352 I think, too, like, uh, uh, what... How long have you been using Spotify? Um, since college, I think. Mm. So over 10 years. Wow. I, I didn't start using until, uh, seven years ago, I think it was. You s- After college. 41 00:06:40.731 --> 00:06:46.242 [laughs] Yeah. Start using, yeah. No, but it wa- well, it, it marked such, like, a specific- We're gonna get you some help, Francis. Don't worry... [laughs] some help. 42 00:06:46.252 --> 00:06:55.042 I mean, you're, you're gonna, you're gonna get me some Apple Music. As I sip my Diet Coke. As you sip your Coca-Cola. Um, as you sip your brand name redacted. Um- Yeah, call me... no, but I... 43 00:06:55.042 --> 00:07:01.632 'Cause it was such a part of my identity to, like, in college, to, like, be a, like, guy who knew about the newest music, and, like, I wasn't... 44 00:07:01.652 --> 00:07:11.252 Like, I, I did, like, write for, like, the college radio blog, um, for a while. But, like- Wow... among my friends- This is just like that show Portlandia... just... Oh, my. You know, I did. 45 00:07:11.292 --> 00:07:21.492 [laughs] I moved to Portland a year after it started airing, and then I left a year before it stopped airing. So, uh, uh, for better or for worse. Um, but no, like- That was very brave of you... 46 00:07:21.552 --> 00:07:29.212 I was like, it was so important to me to, like, d- have, to have listened to every song before anybody else had, so I had the opinion about it and I could talk about it. Mm-hmm. 47 00:07:29.222 --> 00:07:38.142 And then I started using Spotify, like, after college, when I was then, like, you know, working. Um, and I just stopped. Like, reading these books. Well, you also grew up. Yeah. 48 00:07:38.142 --> 00:07:41.292 [laughs] Like, I think that that's, that's a behavior that... 49 00:07:42.112 --> 00:07:51.682 Well, okay, so I don't wanna, like, blow up her spot too much, but my friend Kara Rota is working on a piece for Dirt about this idea of being a completist- Mm. Mm-hmm... 50 00:07:51.682 --> 00:08:02.212 and the difference between completism and completionism. And I think young people who first encounter culture have a very, like, completion mindset- Yeah... towards it. 51 00:08:02.252 --> 00:08:14.492 Like, they conflate fandom with needing to have consumed everything that's out there, which makes sense because when your brain is still being formed, right? Like prefrontal cortex, not formed until 25. Like- Yeah... 52 00:08:14.532 --> 00:08:27.492 that is how you learn, um, by absorbing a lot of stuff. And then you get older, you have more experiences to, um, you know, compare to the culture you consume. You don't necessarily have to consume 53 00:08:28.532 --> 00:08:37.692 all of it, because- Mm-hmm... your ability to form an opinion is no longer based on this sort of, like, style of fandom where you need to- Yeah... have seen every episode. 54 00:08:37.742 --> 00:08:45.942 And, you know, you have more to say, so you don't have to fall back on, like, knowing more obscure facts than somebody else. Be- becomes more about depth than width. I mean, some people never grow out of it. Yeah. 55 00:08:45.942 --> 00:08:54.772 And those people can be very annoying. But they also are useful. Like, you know, they're probably maintaining the Wikipedia page for whatever thing that is. Mm. [laughs] They have their uses. 56 00:08:54.782 --> 00:09:04.512 So it all has to be, like, in balance. But I do think there's, like, this fandom maturation process that happens- Mm... that moves away from, like, that mindset that you had in college, which you... 57 00:09:04.692 --> 00:09:13.532 understandable given the stage of life that you were in. Yeah. And given that, like, you also came from a place where you felt like, maybe you felt, like, a chip on your shoulder, that you had to stack up- Mm-hmm... 58 00:09:13.552 --> 00:09:22.252 your cultural credentials to prove even though, though you didn't grow up close to it- Yeah... that you had consumed enough of it to actually have a worthwhile point of view. Um- Wait, wait, can I... for a second? 59 00:09:22.481 --> 00:09:29.761 Mm-hmm. I never heard the word completist as a word different from completionist. What does that mean? Yeah. Well, Kara has her own theory. Should I... I should read it later. I wanna... We'll, we'll leave it. Yeah. 60 00:09:29.792 --> 00:09:31.022 Okay. We'll leave it for the newsletter. But- I can't wait... 61 00:09:31.022 --> 00:09:42.832 I'm looking forward to it coming out, because she makes some very interesting parallels between this style of fandom and the way that we, like, conduct relationships. Mm. Parenthood, and it's really beautiful. 62 00:09:42.972 --> 00:09:49.572 It's, it's gonna be a banger. Yeah. Okay, that's really interesting, 'cause I feel like I definitely was a completionist, and now I'm less so. But 63 00:09:50.552 --> 00:09:58.632 okay, well, I'll just have to, I'll just have to take it and read that one. Well, you are a Virgo. Yeah. So. Mm-hmm. Don't expose me like that. Um- You're exposed. Tom, don't edit that out. Don't edit that out. 64 00:09:58.672 --> 00:10:09.052 [laughs] Okay. Uh, okay, I do wanna talk... We were talking, though, about, um, the Bad Waitress story- Mm... um, which I did read when it came out, uh, before- Well, everyone did. Everyone did. Well, that's the point. 65 00:10:09.492 --> 00:10:19.791 Uh, but yeah, like, for that being such a success for Dirt and, like... Yeah, what was that like for that to be... Like, how did that happen? Was it just... It was, I mean, obviously, it was just so good. 66 00:10:19.832 --> 00:10:28.612 Tell me about the Bad Waitress era. Yeah. So Bad Waitress came up as a sort of bridge between two, I think, conversations you and I are having that I think will be ongoing. 67 00:10:28.692 --> 00:10:40.212 But, you know, going back to what we were talking about on the last episode about The Village Voice being unique in that they hired people with expertise, but expertise wasn't like, "I have a bunch of clips from, like, the Harvard Crimson." 68 00:10:40.332 --> 00:10:47.012 It was like- Mm... "I worked in this industry." Um, and Bad Waitress was written by my friend Becca Shu. 69 00:10:47.812 --> 00:10:59.322 It's been compared to early Bourdain writing in The New Yorker [laughs] about, um, you know, that came, became Kitchen Confidential. And actually, Bourdain was not just picked out of nowhere. He did- Mm-hmm. 70 00:10:59.452 --> 00:11:09.192 His, his mother had a tie to The New Yorker, so that's why his essay was able to get- Nepotism makes the world go round. Nepotism makes the world go round. And look, Becca and I are longtime friends. 71 00:11:09.232 --> 00:11:22.292 In fact, um, I've talked about this before, so sorry if you already know this backstory, but, um, I knew of the existence of this essay, Bad Waitress- Mm... for actually a couple years. Um, because it was... 72 00:11:22.332 --> 00:11:33.402 she first sent it to me as her friend, and I was always telling her to pitch it out, until one day I woke up and remembered that I had a media company [laughs] and asked her. 73 00:11:33.402 --> 00:11:41.252 [laughs] Asked her, begged her, if I could be the one to publish it. What makes it a Dirt story is, um, the tie-in to 74 00:11:42.272 --> 00:11:51.252 digital culture, which is that it's also, it's, it's an account of her life as a waitress, but it's also a critique- Mm... of the way people talk about service workers 75 00:11:52.512 --> 00:12:00.652 and, like, service work and creative work as if they could not be... That they're not the same, that they couldn't be embodied in one person. And then- Yeah... 76 00:12:00.672 --> 00:12:07.076 you know, when people who work in culture talk about service workers, they have almost this, like-Noble savage approach where it's like- Yeah... 77 00:12:07.125 --> 00:12:11.216 God bless these people doing this job that I would certainly never stoop to do. Mm-hmm. 78 00:12:11.286 --> 00:12:24.036 And so she offers a critique of that, which I think is really important and is something that Anthony Bourdain was also bringing out in his early work, that, um, she, 79 00:12:25.896 --> 00:12:32.446 she thinks, like, you know, we should have more food writing and re- restaurant criticism from people who have worked- Absolutely... 80 00:12:32.576 --> 00:12:43.436 in restaurants and in the food industry, basically is what it comes down to, and that's, like, what The Village Voice was offering. And I think her, like, the meta-narrative there obviously is, like, this is... 81 00:12:43.496 --> 00:12:56.636 this critique is offered in a long essay about what it is like to be a waitress and a writer. Um, and I think the fact that it's still our most popular article ever is a testament to the power of having people write 82 00:12:57.876 --> 00:13:12.576 what they know. Yeah. Um, and- A view directly from the field. Exactly. So it continues to be something that I'm very proud of, and I hear often from people who say that it's their favorite Third Essay. Yeah. 83 00:13:12.616 --> 00:13:23.786 Well, as some- as somebody who does run a media company and, like, you know, publish this and it sounds like you wanna publish more things like this, like, how do you, how do you, like, set up a system to, like, make sure you're getting these kind of stories? 84 00:13:23.896 --> 00:13:25.646 And to me, like, it... 85 00:13:26.516 --> 00:13:37.536 This, to me, is, like, such a, like, taste creation thing, where, like, you're trying to, like, create this, like, more objective reality than, like, s- some academic writing about the thing that they have just studied, right? 86 00:13:37.686 --> 00:13:39.496 Like, is it about... 87 00:13:39.536 --> 00:13:53.076 Like, is the challenge there, like, finding the person, finding the person in that field who is, like, a talented enough writer to do it, or is it the ta- challenge just, like, finding the p- like, finding the person who has the good story, um, and then just edit it, like, putting in a lot of work, a lot of work editing? 88 00:13:53.216 --> 00:14:01.096 What's, like, what's the main challenge to, like, creating more of these stories, you think? Well, I think it's putting the word out there. 89 00:14:01.136 --> 00:14:10.726 Like, I've done a lot to put the word out there when I'm interviewed and on podcasts and social media is that, like, I don't care who the hell you are. I don't care if you've written for other places before. Mm-hmm. 90 00:14:10.726 --> 00:14:20.656 If you have something interesting to say, you know, I wanna hear from you. And- Pitch dirt. Pitch dirt, yeah. And then not just saying that but also, like, abiding- Mm-hmm... by it. 91 00:14:20.756 --> 00:14:31.736 And I think people see, like, that we have given people their first byline, that we have published people that don't have, um, a lot of clips from other places or, you know, prestige places. 92 00:14:32.616 --> 00:14:37.536 I really try to read everything that comes into my inbox. Yeah. And 93 00:14:38.816 --> 00:14:49.626 I usually know within the first few sentences whether I'm interested or not, but I process those first few sentences before I process the name of the email or what- Mm-hmm... they've told me their experience is. 94 00:14:49.716 --> 00:15:02.095 You just open it and read it. So I'm often making the decision prior to, um, actually processing this person's experience or who they are. Yeah. Um, and that's what's more important to me. 95 00:15:02.236 --> 00:15:11.676 So I think if we were saying that and then we weren't abiding by it, like, that would be different. But I think we've abided by it enough, and obviously we do publish people who have, 96 00:15:12.596 --> 00:15:18.376 um, prestigious clips and a lot of experience. Yeah. And I'm interested in that too, but 97 00:15:19.316 --> 00:15:33.876 yeah, I think part of the, the benefit of being the person curating the content is, like, I can create a slate of content that, like, conforms with my values and, like, I deeply believe, like, people should have the opportunity to gain experience. 98 00:15:33.986 --> 00:15:45.816 Mm. But also that, like, writers, people who identify wr- as writers are not the only people that can write or have something interesting to say. So- Yeah. Okay, well- Bad Waitress is an example of that, yeah. Yeah. 99 00:15:45.876 --> 00:15:51.396 So okay, so Anthony Bourdain, like you said, like, was already, you know, kind of a wr- kind of a writer. Yeah. Wasn't plucked out of nowhere. 100 00:15:51.936 --> 00:15:59.876 Um, we were talking about this, uh, starter pack that was on Twitter where it was, like, the Anthony Bourdain starter pack. I think there was even... Uh, brat was included in it. 101 00:15:59.996 --> 00:16:04.926 You know, it was, it was a brat summer moment. That was crazy. Yeah, I think they were saying Anthony Bourdain summer. Yeah. 102 00:16:04.956 --> 00:16:23.775 So Becca, who wrote Bad Waitress, also I think about a month ago wrote a piece for New York Times Magazine's Screenland about the meme-ification of Anthony Bourdain where, yeah, she talks about how, um, he's posthumously become a meme, but that this doesn't really happen to every celebrity. 103 00:16:23.856 --> 00:16:31.176 Mm-hmm. Really only certain celebrities. I think Princess Diana is another example where it's like- This is parasocial. These, like, especially parasocial ones, right? Yes. 104 00:16:31.196 --> 00:16:45.616 The parasociality that comes from the perception of this person being a celebrity of and by the people and for the people. Mm. And that the meme-ing of them posthumously has something to do with, 105 00:16:47.056 --> 00:16:55.576 like, mechanisms of collective grief. Mm. But I think the further, like... I think you talked about sublimation last time when we mentioned- [laughs] I did. Yeah... 106 00:16:55.586 --> 00:16:58.706 like, the essence, or a couple episodes ago we were talking about the essence starter packs. 107 00:16:58.776 --> 00:17:08.415 Like, we can see the starter packs and memes getting sublimated further and further and further from the core of people who actually have a strong attachment to Anthony Bourdain, like, as more people jump on the bandwagon. 108 00:17:08.516 --> 00:17:14.576 They just have an attachment to the attachment, and you're trying to use this, like, cultural signifier to build your identity. Exactly. Exactly. 109 00:17:14.616 --> 00:17:27.656 And I think what he signifies is, like, really powerful, which is, like, this is somebody who saw through the bullshit of seeing a place on TikTok and going to get a picture of, like, the perfect cheese pull. Yeah. 110 00:17:27.816 --> 00:17:38.816 Um, you know, this is somebody who was talking about restaurants from the perspective of working in the kitchen. That was really valuable. But over the course of his life, he himself got further from that experience. 111 00:17:38.996 --> 00:17:48.946 Mm-hmm. And Becca really brings out that, like- Inevitably... he didn't mind being famous in some ways. Like, he wanted that power. He probably wouldn't have done, you know, three TV shows over 16 years or whatever. 112 00:17:48.946 --> 00:17:57.346 Yeah, and he did a lot of good with that power and what- Yeah... he was able to highlight. I mean, after Kissinger passed away, a lot of people were quoting from his biography where he talks about- Yeah... 113 00:17:57.346 --> 00:18:06.936 the experience of going to Cambodia and seeing in real time the damage the US policy had caused. So he did a lot of good with that power. Um, it makes sense that people have this attachment to him. 114 00:18:07.416 --> 00:18:13.504 There is a little bit of a cynicism ofThe memes kind of getting further and further and further away I think, well, okay, I think like- Yeah... 115 00:18:13.604 --> 00:18:27.924 um, there's one of my favorite kind of like lines, mantras is the title, I think it's a quote from him too, but it's like a title of this book about the, uh, the artist Robert Irwin, and it's called Seeing is Forgetting the Name of the Thing One Sees. 116 00:18:28.064 --> 00:18:37.904 Mm-hmm. And I, I just love that line. I think about it all the time. Um, but I think that is kind of the way we're talking about, about Bourdain. It's like that's kind of what he did. 117 00:18:37.964 --> 00:18:45.884 It's like this kind of authenticity of the way he approached everywhere he traveled and the people he traveled there is like kind of without pretense and like in a really honest way. 118 00:18:46.404 --> 00:18:49.944 Um, and that is part of his magnetism and what makes him so appealing. 119 00:18:50.304 --> 00:19:08.744 But then what the starter packs do is you're only seeing the name of the thing one sees, where then you're, you're like, but the, the further you get from like, you know, enjoying Bourdain and like watching his shows and like appreciating the way he's approaching the world, and the more you're just like, you know, using it as this like trading card online to like signify your identity. 120 00:19:09.124 --> 00:19:13.894 It's like you're, you're, you're... it's the exact opposite of like seeing is forgetting the name of the thing one sees. 121 00:19:13.963 --> 00:19:21.064 What you're seeing is that smoking cigarettes are cool, and you wanna signal that you smoke cigarettes and thus are cool, right? Yeah. 122 00:19:21.124 --> 00:19:28.924 I mean, it's, it's this idea that objects can be a substitution for a person or like- Mm-hmm... I would argue a lifestyle. 123 00:19:29.064 --> 00:19:41.694 And there is a slide in, there was a slide in my presentation at FWB Fest, which we referenced on the last episode, that comes out of a long, uh, project I did called What Is Lifestyle? Mm. 124 00:19:41.704 --> 00:19:46.584 Where I trace the origins of the word lifestyle and what it's come to represent. 125 00:19:46.664 --> 00:19:57.584 And I think there's a lot of parallels between the process of creating lifestyle and the process of developing taste, um, that I teased out as part of this presentation. 126 00:19:57.744 --> 00:20:03.364 Um, so there's like one particular slide, and I think it's the one that you highlighted as one of your favorites. Yeah. Where, 127 00:20:04.584 --> 00:20:17.424 in What Is Lifestyle, which I originally self-published and then I republished on Dirt, um- Naturally... last year. Um, I talk about a lifestyle, a lifestyle is the process of creation, consumption, and curation. 128 00:20:18.244 --> 00:20:29.764 Um, and I say that like a thing, uh, a lifestyle's created when we ascribe meaning to it. It's consumed when we ascribe value to it, and it's curated when we tell a story about it. Mm. 129 00:20:29.944 --> 00:20:33.184 Um, and I think taste is sort of the same way, right? 130 00:20:33.244 --> 00:20:45.384 Like, we start to attach meaning to certain objects because they represent our taste, and then, you know, we consume more things that we think represent us, and that's when we sort of attach value to them. 131 00:20:45.644 --> 00:20:56.184 And like, then we start to curate them and the, the stories that we tell about our taste publicly, and this is sort of the starter pack, believing that we can tell a story through these objects, but- Mm... 132 00:20:56.244 --> 00:21:08.213 there is a limit to the way that a person could represent their taste or themself or their life or their lifestyle through a, an aggregate, uh, through a picture of a bunch of objects. Yeah. 133 00:21:08.213 --> 00:21:20.344 Or like, you know, what's in my purse or whatever. And I think that that's kind of what you're getting at because, like, you've named it, but have you really created meaning with it? 134 00:21:20.464 --> 00:21:33.934 Um, and the internet, I think, pulls us, pulls us, uh, towards like, incentivizes more towards naming things, showing things, collecting objects, and further away from telling- From doing anything... 135 00:21:33.934 --> 00:21:42.713 a story from them that really- Mm... like, can be lasting. And one of the things, I meant to put this in my fest presentation, or I didn't have time to talk about it- Mm... 136 00:21:42.724 --> 00:21:53.364 but it is in the original essay, and I think it does relate to taste. Um, [lips smack] there's this archeologist named Ian, I think Hodder or Hodder. He does these, uh, digs in Turkey 137 00:21:54.524 --> 00:22:04.604 and, um, you know, they're able to... When you do a dig, when people died or are buried near their homes, you can do, you can analyze the skeleton, right? 138 00:22:04.624 --> 00:22:14.944 And see how long this person lived, what they died from, but they're also buried close enough to their stuff so that you know, like, what their lifestyle was, like how much money and resources they had. 139 00:22:15.564 --> 00:22:26.734 And they found that the skeletons, the people that had lived the longest, were not actually the people with the nicest homes and the most stuff and like, I say in the piece, like most access to the means of production- Mm... 140 00:22:26.764 --> 00:22:28.593 as like Faber would say. Yeah. 141 00:22:28.593 --> 00:22:44.034 But they had more, they were like over-indexed on objects that had meaning, so religious, talismanic things that, um, you could tell just weren't, weren't only consumed but were part of like some story that they were telling about their values. 142 00:22:44.034 --> 00:23:00.364 A tool for living. Yeah. And those people lived longer. Um, so I think that there's like a lesson there about taste and collecting, curating objects that it's really not about like the breadth of what you have- Yeah... 143 00:23:00.374 --> 00:23:08.564 or can name or like know about. It's the depth of your relationship to the things in your life or to go back- Mm-hmm... 144 00:23:08.574 --> 00:23:18.404 to what you said, it's not about being the kid at the college radio station that's listened to, you know, every- Everything that came out last month... every Grateful Dead concert recording or whatever. 145 00:23:18.514 --> 00:23:27.624 [laughs] It's, it's also about the depth of your relationship to Jerry Garcia or you know, what that means to you and how you live your life. Yeah. Yeah. I think 146 00:23:28.584 --> 00:23:36.734 that's like a way, I think that's a way, like, I often approach things, like new interests. Like, I got into watching soccer two years ago. Mm-hmm. 147 00:23:36.734 --> 00:23:41.244 And so I like start- I was like, you know, on Instagram, all my reels became soccer. 148 00:23:41.324 --> 00:23:48.764 Uh, and then like I'm on The Athletic and like reading so many articles, I'm like, "Oh, I'm gonna read, like what, what's happening in the Bundesliga? What's happening in La Liga? What's happening in the Premier League?" 149 00:23:49.224 --> 00:23:59.464 Et cetera. Um, and then it's like, I feel like that's a way of like approaching a topic, but then like you ultimately have to like find that like spiral of interest down into the specific thing to like- Mm-hmm... 150 00:23:59.484 --> 00:24:10.164 build the lasting thing. I don't know. I mean, [laughs] roots are a great metaphor here, right? Like, I started following Arsenal, as we talked about [laughs] in the first episode. Um, yeah, I don't know. 151 00:24:10.204 --> 00:24:23.680 To me, it's like that, that's like a natural process though, of like, of like absorbing something into your taste and like your way of living is likeIt start-- Maybe that's just for me, though, is like it starts with the width, and then you get the depth and, like, lose a bit of the width. 152 00:24:25.040 --> 00:24:31.050 Yeah. I mean, I saw this when I worked at HODINKEE, which is like a watch... Started off as a watch magazine- Mm-hmm... 153 00:24:31.060 --> 00:24:39.680 became a watch retailer, and it's actually just gone back to being a magazine, but the most interesting people that were interviewed, or even the most interesting commenters, obviously were, 154 00:24:41.080 --> 00:24:48.940 were not typically the people with the most watches- Yeah... but they might have a small collection of two or three that were meaningful to them. So they would have, like, 155 00:24:50.080 --> 00:25:01.380 a Tudor and, maybe that they bought themselves as, like, a professional milestone, and then, like, a Casio, and then maybe, like, a Rolex or an Omega- Yeah... 156 00:25:01.410 --> 00:25:07.220 or something more expensive that they had inherited from a relative, and, like, that was it. Maybe even at one point they had even more, and they got rid of them. 157 00:25:07.260 --> 00:25:20.570 They pared down to these three, and those people always had the more interesting stories or interesting things to say about watches than the person who was like, "You know, I have, I have 10 Rolexes"- Mm-hmm... 158 00:25:20.570 --> 00:25:33.600 or, "I have, like, five Panerai, and I only wear Panerai." So, um- Like, width itself is, like, not necessarily the mark of a novice, but, like, width- Yeah... without depth is the mark of a novice, or, like, a tourist. 159 00:25:33.620 --> 00:25:44.180 Exactly. Exactly, 'cause like you said before, when you're first getting into something, you have to read a b- lot about it. Yeah. And so maybe you get caught up, and you go out and buy as much as you can. 160 00:25:44.240 --> 00:25:58.400 But as you learn more, you're able to be more confident in your ability to establish meaning with things and know what's important, and then, you know, you sort of pare down, and, um, you know, maybe that's completism versus completionism. 161 00:25:58.980 --> 00:26:08.180 Mm-hmm. Oh, I can't wait to [laughs] I can't wait to read this article. I know. Uh, okay, wait, speaking about watches, um, AI wearables. So as this- Mm... 162 00:26:08.200 --> 00:26:15.960 as this episode comes out, we're now a little removed from the friend.com- Oh... uh, you know- FriendGate... debacle. Friend, FriendGate, yeah. 163 00:26:16.460 --> 00:26:29.270 Um, but, okay, one, one thing I liked, um, Tyler Denk in his Big Desk Energy newsletter- Who? Uh, uh, uh, who? Um, but he... So he wrote about the AI thing, the FriendGate. Mm. But there's this line that I wanna quote. 164 00:26:29.389 --> 00:26:37.320 I mean, I'm, I'm paraphrasing, actually, but he says, like, the AI, the Humane AI pin, you know, the, the previous AI wearable debacle, "The Humane AI pin is perfect. 165 00:26:37.380 --> 00:26:46.009 It'll replace the pin I've already been wearing for years," which is, like, nobody... The point is, right, nobody... Who's wearing these pins? Like, it's not, like, something you just, like- Politicians... 166 00:26:46.009 --> 00:26:50.930 easily strap on. Yeah, po- like, it's politicians. Yeah, take off the American flag lapel pin- The American flag, [laughs] put the Humane... put on Humane. Put on the Esperanto pin. 167 00:26:50.930 --> 00:27:01.190 That's great offset for the US government. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Um, but- Hmm... okay. Did you know that Esperanto speakers have a soccer team? I... No, I... Wait, I- [laughs] What do you know about Esperanto? 168 00:27:01.229 --> 00:27:07.240 'Cause I, all I know is that- What?... it's, like, the failed universal language. That's all I really know. What do you know about Esperanto? That's all I know. I just told you. 169 00:27:07.280 --> 00:27:18.980 My, my [laughs] I have neither width nor depth on Esperanto. Okay, well, I mean, this is another story that I was gonna write at one point. Um, but yeah, so basically, like, there are, um... 170 00:27:19.100 --> 00:27:28.480 You know, like in the Olympics, you can have certain teams that are, like, stateless peoples- Yeah... or, you know- Oh, I didn't know that... from, from states that have maybe not been acknowledged. Yeah. 171 00:27:28.490 --> 00:27:40.480 So yeah, there was, at one point, there's, maybe still is, an Esperanto soccer team that plays internationally, and, um, is for, I think it's for people who are, like, sort of stateless or, or identify- Wow... 172 00:27:40.490 --> 00:27:48.710 more with, like, the, the Esperanto movement. [laughs] I shouldn't laugh. Um, and they would go play, like, um... I don't wanna name one of the other teams and speak out of turns. Yeah. 173 00:27:48.720 --> 00:27:59.600 I think some of this stuff is fluid, but, like, like a South Sudan or something- Yeah... where... Um, and yeah, I think that they were pretty good at one point. So I talked to somebody who was on the team as, like- Oh... 174 00:27:59.660 --> 00:28:09.460 I was doing some research for, um, potential article, I think. I was gonna maybe pitch it to Victory Magazine, which is, like, an amazing- Mm... sports magazine, if you haven't seen them. 175 00:28:09.500 --> 00:28:18.740 But, um, yeah, the point [laughs] the point is, um- Well, so Esperanto-... is you can have subcultures about language... yeah. You can have subcultures around language as well. Yeah, absolutely. 176 00:28:19.100 --> 00:28:26.980 Esperanto, though, like, before we move on from this, it was, it was, like, in... Was it in the '80s or, like, the '60s? When was it? It was this, like, international language- I actually think it was post-World War II. 177 00:28:27.040 --> 00:28:44.290 I think it was part of the whole- Okay... like- Like globalism... uh, internationalism- Yeah... movement. Let's see. Oh, yeah, 1887. What? Yeah. It's, it's, it sounds like, uh, uh, I don't know. 178 00:28:44.300 --> 00:28:51.440 They say it maxed out at two million speakers. Two million speakers. That's... Well, [laughs] you know, back in the- It's considered a constructed language... back in the 1800s, there was a lot more. 179 00:28:51.560 --> 00:28:53.690 I mean, what- Aren't they all?... what language isn't constructed? Exactly. But yeah. Geez. 180 00:28:53.720 --> 00:29:02.560 I guess it was more like, you know, I don't know, purposeful over a short period of time and not, like, evolved, developed, um- Okay, well, we might have to do an Esperanto episode... to a planned community. 181 00:29:02.670 --> 00:29:12.200 [laughs] I haven't been on this Wikipedia- We might have to learn Esperanto... Wikipedia page in a while, and it's, uh- Yeah... it's a rich text. Mm-hmm. Is [laughs] can you, uh... 182 00:29:12.240 --> 00:29:23.040 Is there an option to translate it to Esperanto? Oh, you know, I think I got into this. Now I know how I got into this. [laughs] Huh. Because, okay, well, first of all, Duolingo used to have Esperanto. 183 00:29:23.100 --> 00:29:33.380 I don't know if they still have it. Second of all, so when they created that micronation, Rose Island- Mm-hmm, I'm not familiar... they proposed using Esperanto as the language. Okay. 184 00:29:33.420 --> 00:29:41.020 And I think I, if I could trace back how I went down this rabbit hole, I think it must have been 185 00:29:42.480 --> 00:29:53.210 around the same time I started getting interested in micronations because I did at one point, um, go to Lithuania for Playboy Magazine- Oh. [laughs]... at the time. Rest in peace. At the time that- Right... 186 00:29:53.210 --> 00:30:01.000 Playboy was still publishing print. Oh, no. Yeah. And I wrote an article about, uh, Užupis, which is a micronation in the capital of Vilnius. 187 00:30:01.560 --> 00:30:16.180 And so I think I must have been down the same rabbit hole that led to Esperanto because there's, there's a whole correlation between these, like, universal languages, statelessness, like, idea of what is a state, um, that dovetails with people that become super interested in micronations as well. 188 00:30:16.680 --> 00:30:26.758 Mm-hmm. Um, and also cryptocurrency, as I've recently learned. Yeah, so I think the interesting thing about rabbit holes, I don't know if you're somebody who goes down-A lot of them... rabbit holes? Oh, no shit. 189 00:30:26.968 --> 00:30:40.788 [laughs] I mean, so I, when I did my presentation for FWB Fest about- Yeah... taste, I wasn't quite sure how to end it because I did not- Mm... wanna end on a definition of taste. So but I ended up, um, coming... 190 00:30:40.988 --> 00:30:49.958 I can't remember if it, if I found this or, um, Kat, who does community management for Dirt helped me out with some research for my presentation. So shout out Kat. Mm. 191 00:30:49.958 --> 00:31:01.908 Um, but I ended up e- ending with this quote by Joseph Brodsky about developing taste as a reader, and he says, "The way to develop good taste in literature is to read poetry. 192 00:31:01.938 --> 00:31:08.828 Like the proverbial proletariat, you stand to lose nothing. What you may gain are new associative chains." And so 193 00:31:10.008 --> 00:31:22.828 I associate rabbit holes with associative chains because you start in one, and that leads to another, and that leads to another. Yeah. But I like this idea that, like, poetry is almost like associate chains as a medium. 194 00:31:22.848 --> 00:31:32.228 Mm-hmm. Like, and that if you absorb a lot of poetry, you get good at making these associations, and then by extension you get good at developing your taste. Yeah. 195 00:31:32.388 --> 00:31:41.988 I also have to say, that's kind of the perfect way to end a presentation at a ostensibly, you know, crypto, uh, you know, founded festival. [laughs] But you don't need me to tell you that. Think about that. 196 00:31:42.308 --> 00:31:51.388 Blockchain, yeah, I know, you're so right. I didn't make that connection on stage unfortunately. Um- You made it... [laughs] No, you made it on chain. [laughs] Yeah. Well, I peaked- Oh, what can I say?... 197 00:31:51.468 --> 00:32:02.828 with my Kanye West reference. Yeah. Kanye. [laughs] Uh, okay. Did I say Conde West? You might have. [laughs] That's what, that's what I heard. That's dark. That's like a, that's like a 2015 rapper name. 198 00:32:02.888 --> 00:32:14.788 No, that's like a 2024 rapper name. Um, some kid. I don't... Are kids still on SoundCloud? That's like a, a GQ intern that moonlights on SoundCloud. A J- [laughs] Yeah. Notice me, Sam Hine. [laughs] Oh my God. Hi, Sam. 199 00:32:15.008 --> 00:32:22.868 Shout out to Sam. Um- I know him... what's up? Okay, speaking of people who are definitely listening, uh, Walden. Walden's definitely listening. Yeah. 200 00:32:22.988 --> 00:32:36.528 Um- Uh, so he just wrote this great article, uh, that I really liked in Dirt, AI Typography, about the, uh, much misaligned, I don't know, leave it up to interpretation, friend.com. Yeah. Walden is my editorial fellow. 201 00:32:36.748 --> 00:32:46.558 I do think he could, um, single-handedly turn the Conde Nast business around. So- [laughs]... you know- Watch out, Anne... I can't hire him right now, but you should. Mm-hmm. 202 00:32:46.668 --> 00:33:07.458 And, um, he wrote this excellent piece for us about, um, whether there is an emerging AI typography, because what we saw in like the last cycle of the internet is like certain visual cues that are meant to sort of become shorthand for, um, the legitimacy of something- Mm-hmm... 203 00:33:07.468 --> 00:33:09.888 within a certain platform. So like blue. 204 00:33:10.008 --> 00:33:21.958 Like there's been so much good writing about blue and like Facebook blue and then how many other startups wanted to sort of create this like subconscious association with the s- success of Facebook by like- Yeah... 205 00:33:21.958 --> 00:33:34.028 using blue. And um, and then, and then we also see typography as well, like Helvetica for a long time has been this shorthand for the legitimacy of a business- Mm-hmm... 206 00:33:34.038 --> 00:33:46.058 that this is clean, well-designed, minimal, which is what web pages were meant to be until we had the backlash, which is like, I'm signaling I'm interesting by doing like web brutalism- Yeah... 207 00:33:46.088 --> 00:33:48.068 which is kind of the opposite of that. 208 00:33:48.128 --> 00:34:04.128 So I sent Walden out into the world to talk to people who would know whether there's an emergent AI typography and aesthetic, and the same week that he was writing this, um, Friend put out their- [laughs] What a gift... 209 00:34:04.218 --> 00:34:06.468 internet trailer-... what a friend they were to him... whatever you wanna call it. And um, 210 00:34:07.768 --> 00:34:22.248 where they're showing their, their AI wearable, which is, um, listens to your conversation and texts you basically, and by a beautiful, uh, coincidence ends on a still image, I think, of, 211 00:34:23.288 --> 00:34:30.888 I don't remember, a forest or something, and it just says- Mm... "friend." Yeah. And so we were like, well, we gotta figure out [laughs] what font this is, right? This is the perfect lead. 212 00:34:31.388 --> 00:34:43.287 So a little bit of time has passed now, but, um, this is what, what, uh, Walden ended up finding. "Despite looking like a print typeface, that font, Georgia, is actually digital native. 213 00:34:43.847 --> 00:34:56.848 It was designed for Microsoft in 1993 by the legendary Matthew Carter, and as the yin to the yang of Verdana, the first Microsoft sans serif screen font." And then he goes on to say, 214 00:34:57.788 --> 00:35:10.288 um, which I thought was an, a great pull quote, "What a shrewd choice of graphic design then to deliver this message in a typeface that feels familiar, rather demure, and yes, even a little bit friendly." 215 00:35:11.948 --> 00:35:24.078 So he comes out of this with the thesis that like within AI, typography is going to function as it has histor- historically functioned in trying- Mm-hmm... 216 00:35:24.148 --> 00:35:34.408 to get people used to new technologies, which is gonna like try to signal to you simultaneously that this is innovative, but it's also familiar. Mm-hmm. 217 00:35:34.488 --> 00:35:45.628 And the stakes for seeming familiar with a wearable that's gonna purport to be your friend are even higher because this typography also needs to seem friendly. Yeah. 218 00:35:45.748 --> 00:35:59.608 Um, which isn't necessarily the case for AI technology that's not going to be used, um, personally. Yeah. And he also, yeah, makes ties to the fact that like some of these AI chat agents are named like people. 219 00:35:59.708 --> 00:36:10.218 So like Claude is your friend, right? Mm-hmm. And so like let's look at the way Claude is marketed and like what does their logo look like in typography. So you should read the full piece, but- Yeah. It's really good... 220 00:36:10.248 --> 00:36:11.908 that's a pretty good summation. 221 00:36:11.948 --> 00:36:24.918 This, so the, the AI, I think the same week AI Friend, [clears throat] excuse me, I think the same week, uh, Friend came out was when Meta announced that they were shutting down their, uh, like their like pseudo celebrity character things- Mm... 222 00:36:24.918 --> 00:36:36.124 which I played around with a few months ago. Um, and it was, it was so bizarre. It was this thing where like you can go to like a-There, there's like 20 Instagram profiles or whatever. 223 00:36:36.164 --> 00:36:46.204 And most of these-- Some of these had just like, you know, regular, normal people, like some anonymous model, um, under the name. Other ones had, like, MrBeast was, like, the content creator archetype. Mm. 224 00:36:46.244 --> 00:36:57.364 But it, like, wasn't called MrBeast. So it was this really weird thing, uh, where you could tell that they're trying to, like, make... you know, put this, like, friendliness on AI and, like, introduce this to people. 225 00:36:57.424 --> 00:37:05.124 But each account, like the, the one with the most followers I think was, like... it was, like, Kendall Jenner, and it was, like, the influencer friend. But again, it wasn't Kendall Jenner's name, but it was her image. 226 00:37:05.624 --> 00:37:14.804 Um, and you're me- meant to, like, talk to these people, and they're like, you know, a GPT or whatever, like, uh, designed to, like, speak in this way and, like, give you this kind of perspective. 227 00:37:15.384 --> 00:37:20.984 But then you try it and, like, I don't know. Like, I, I tried, though I was like, "Okay, let me engage with this, like, earnestly." 228 00:37:21.224 --> 00:37:27.164 And I talked to, like, the writer character and, like, trying to help me come up with a better subject line for the newsletter I was writing that day. 229 00:37:27.224 --> 00:37:37.224 And it was, like, the same as if I was just using ChatGPT to do that, uh, which I've done sometimes when I'm, like, stuck. It's like, "Give me 10 ideas for subject lines," and, you know, that's like a starting point. 230 00:37:37.364 --> 00:37:49.504 Um- Mm. But they shut it down because obviously people just wanted to talk to these as the celebrities they were, like, imaged as. Like, so that was, like, a, a failed way in making this... like, making AI tech work. 231 00:37:49.584 --> 00:37:55.403 Um- I... If I had to guess, though, I think they're probably folding that into some other parts of the business. Yeah. 232 00:37:55.424 --> 00:38:03.784 I mean, my perception is there's more opportunity in the short term around creating AI software that's gonna be used on, like, the enterprise level that, like- Yeah, no doubt... 233 00:38:03.794 --> 00:38:12.484 you can force, like, an entire company to integrate rather than getting individual users to use it off the bat and- Mm-hmm. But I also think that that was uniquely... 234 00:38:12.524 --> 00:38:16.704 a uniquely poor use case because of that celebrity confusion, where it's like- Yeah, yeah... 235 00:38:16.744 --> 00:38:27.064 you're not benefiting from the fandom of, like, really catering to this parasocial relationship where this person's gonna answer as Kendall. You're just hamstringing it by, like, leading them along. Totally. Yeah. 236 00:38:27.084 --> 00:38:40.344 Well, so- It's a dog food situation. Yeah. Another w- ano- [laughs] another, uh, Meta AI related thing, I think it was in an interview with Rundown AI, which is, like, a big AI newsletter- Mm... um, on Beehive. Uh, they- 237 00:38:41.484 --> 00:38:44.004 Mm. Z- Zuck was saying, like, basically... 238 00:38:44.984 --> 00:38:58.494 I forget exactly, but he's saying how, like, it wouldn't make sense to, like, totally put, like, um, human minds in a computer, like, as an AI or whatever, or, like, try to translate, transfer somebody's consciousness into a computer because he's like... 239 00:38:58.944 --> 00:39:06.124 You know, he's saying in his, the gold chain and tan that everyone talks about these days. He's like, "We are more than just our minds, you know? 240 00:39:06.224 --> 00:39:16.384 Like, we are bodies, and we are active, and we do things," which I, which I thought was really interesting 'cause it seems like that, like, you know, the whole Meta thing seemed to be going away from that. 241 00:39:16.404 --> 00:39:25.014 And that, I don't know. Like, all these kind of tech overlords, your Musk with Neuralink. Um, I thought it was really refreshing and kind of endearing to see one of these people 242 00:39:26.084 --> 00:39:38.644 say, like, "Actually, we're bodies too," uh, especially as somebody who spends most of my weeks [laughs] sitting at my computer staring at it, writing. Um- Yeah. I mean, I think that's part of the backlash, right? 243 00:39:38.684 --> 00:39:56.284 And if you are an incumbent, um, technology company, and then you can also form narratives around the backlash to something that you kinda helped create. Like- Yeah... I think he's... 244 00:39:57.084 --> 00:40:07.704 I mean, there's... Facebook's one of the most established tech companies in the world, but there's always the opportunity for him to try to position it as contrarian. Yeah. Right? 245 00:40:08.084 --> 00:40:21.444 And I think a lot of tech CEOs are constantly trying to walk that line, where it's like, if your competitor's a little further ahead, then you become the contrarian, and that's your- Mm... 246 00:40:21.484 --> 00:40:30.744 you know, that's your special sauce, where it's like, oh, people are coming back to Facebook because Facebook seems really human compared to, like, what Google's doing with Gemini. Yeah. 247 00:40:31.104 --> 00:40:37.504 Um, but I think it's really hard to measure- With what? Even agreeing with X. It's hard to measure the success of this stuff because- Yeah... it's kind of just sentiment. 248 00:40:37.524 --> 00:40:44.504 And I think that leads to, I mean, or, or branding or storytelling- Mm-hmm... as we talked about a couple weeks ago. 249 00:40:45.024 --> 00:40:52.804 I think that sort of leads us to something else that you and I were thinking about, which is attention as a limited resource in the attention economy. 250 00:40:52.904 --> 00:41:04.644 Him going out there, you know, looking cooler [laughs] than he's looked before- [laughs]... saying comments that could be taken as almost anti-AI or- Yeah... being one of the only people who's not, like, 251 00:41:06.084 --> 00:41:15.854 giving a, an un... you know... [sighs] Is he's, he's making it feel human. He's, he's making, he's... It's not, it's not even what he's making AI look like. 252 00:41:15.884 --> 00:41:24.204 It's just that he is a relatable vehicle for, like, the message. He's, uh, well, a more- Yeah... relatable vehicle than ever before for the message he's peddling, for the products he's peddling. Right. 253 00:41:24.264 --> 00:41:32.124 And he's not peddling it as unambiguously good for everything- Yeah... which people read as, like, a more nuanced, intelligent take. Mm-hmm. 254 00:41:32.304 --> 00:41:43.884 Um, but what I wanted to talk about with attention is something that I was thinking about yesterday [laughs] just in the airport. Um, you know, I looked... 255 00:41:44.344 --> 00:41:54.523 Like, my, my feed just, like, explodes with people talking about what was happening in the Japanese market before- Yeah... Japanese stock market before, um, US stock market opens. 256 00:41:54.694 --> 00:42:03.324 And I look over and my husband has the Wikipedia page [laughs] for the Japanese stock market open. He's like, you know, learning in real time. And, um, 257 00:42:04.544 --> 00:42:09.544 and then, you know, also part of my feed talking about how all the cryptocurrencies were- Mm... 258 00:42:09.584 --> 00:42:18.594 were diving with, um, US stock sentiment because it's like, you know, it's supposed to be this asset that wasn't beholden to the stock market, but actually they're correlated. Kind of. 259 00:42:18.624 --> 00:42:30.634 And like, yeah, gold is less correlated. Like, people who make an argument for Bitcoin as like gold, it's like, well, gold doesn't go down when the S&P 500 goes down- Yeah... but Bitcoin does. 260 00:42:31.304 --> 00:42:42.128 Um, so but all of this is, like, speculation too because the US market has not in fact opened. But people are already saying, "Oh, you know, the Fed's gonna have to uh-"Cut rates to correct this. 261 00:42:42.208 --> 00:42:51.888 They overplayed their hand, whatever. Um, and you know this isn't my expertise, but this is- Yeah... like my, lay- my layman's story of what was happening. Mm-hmm. Simultaneously, 262 00:42:52.828 --> 00:43:01.568 so I'm watching this happen, I'm watching all this speculation of what's gonna happen. When the US markets open, people are selling off, people are selling off their cryptocurrency. 263 00:43:02.048 --> 00:43:05.468 Then you have all the other people that are like, "Buy the dip, hold," [laughs] you know? 264 00:43:06.228 --> 00:43:17.298 And at the same time, like, Polymarket and some of these betting, um, platforms that are consumer-facing where people are, um, can bet on, like, political and pop culture outcomes. Oh, yeah. I love these. 265 00:43:17.588 --> 00:43:29.148 People are trying to extrapolate from this who's gonna get the vice presidential, um, nomination or, from the Democratic Party. Yeah. And it's, like, going back and forth between Shapiro and Walz. And so... 266 00:43:30.328 --> 00:43:43.528 And the thing is, like, I think you have people making real trades based on what they think the market's going to do, and it just underscores that, like, in a capitalist system, like, the source of truth, 267 00:43:44.868 --> 00:43:54.768 it's not about what's true or false, it's about what the market believes, right? Mm-hmm. Like, it's not about whether unemployment, like, whether unemployment is high or not, it's what people believe. 268 00:43:54.828 --> 00:44:07.448 I mean, this is sort of the vibe session- Yeah... thing that Kyla Scanlon talks about. And so people are not trying to say, "These stocks are doing poorly," they're, or they're not doing poorly. 269 00:44:07.488 --> 00:44:17.548 They're trying to say, when the market opens, what will the market, which literally does not exist- [laughs]... it's not really an embodied entity. Yeah. What will the mar- what will be the market's truth? 270 00:44:17.808 --> 00:44:26.868 What's the mass impression? Yeah, and how do I anticipate it? So that is, like, capitalism doesn't run on true or false, it runs on what is the market gonna do? 271 00:44:27.388 --> 00:44:38.988 In the other end of the system you have communism where it's not about what's true or false, it's what the state believes, the state being another entity like the market that could be made up of people but is not an embodied entity. 272 00:44:39.378 --> 00:44:48.328 Yeah. And then you have democracy or things in the middle like democratic socialism, where it's not about what's true or false, it's what the population believes. Mm-hmm. 273 00:44:48.368 --> 00:44:57.568 Which is actually the closest to human sentiment but can also lead to outcomes that are based on a lie. Yeah. And 274 00:44:58.588 --> 00:45:09.308 where people fall [laughs] on the spectrum of their affiliation or the belief in, like, what makes the most effective system, again, is not about what people think 275 00:45:10.548 --> 00:45:18.688 is most effective at, like, people making decisions based on the true, what's true, objectively true and what's objectively false. But it's like, do you want the market to decide? 276 00:45:19.098 --> 00:45:27.618 Do you want the population to decide or do you want the state to decide? And I think that that, that does impact culture, [laughs] right? Yeah. Like, how could it not? 277 00:45:27.688 --> 00:45:36.798 And the betting culture around what the market's gonna do or who's gonna be selected as vice president, and we're recording this after we found out that it was indeed Walz. Yeah. 278 00:45:36.828 --> 00:45:49.128 So congratulations to everyone who made money off of that. That speculation becomes a form of culture as well. Like, that's- Yeah... how all the crypto stuff became a conference with music. Yeah. Right? 279 00:45:49.268 --> 00:46:01.028 People came in for the speculation. They built a culture around it. Like, WallStreetBets started off as a way to say, like, "Fuck you" to Wall Street. Yeah. It became a subculture 280 00:46:01.988 --> 00:46:14.088 with its own, like, media and, like, influencers and stuff. So I don't know, I think those distinctions are important. Mm-hmm. And I felt like I was watching that play out because, like, actually 281 00:46:16.188 --> 00:46:25.997 it didn't end up being as bad as people thought it was going to be. Um- Yeah. Yeah, basically bounced back like- At least in the US... mid that 12th time... it's, like, not a Black Monday situation. Yeah. 282 00:46:26.068 --> 00:46:36.928 Um, but the belief that, you know, there's a risk, this could carry out throughout the summer and, you know. Yeah, sets the tone. Yeah. Creates the culture. Yeah. 283 00:46:36.968 --> 00:46:46.608 Creates the conditions in which people wanna do one thing or not and like- That's the attention economy for you, people. That's it. That's the attention economy, and we will be back talking to you about it next week. 284 00:46:47.968 --> 00:46:56.308 [upbeat music] It tastes just like it costs. Ooh, honey.