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[upbeat music] Welcome back to Tasteland. I am your co-host, Francis Sierra.

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And I'm your other co-host, Daisy Aguiar. How's it going today, Daisy? How's your Christmas Day going? Oh, right. Today's Christmas. [laughs] It's going so well. [laughs] Good. Merry Christmas.

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No, we recorded this a week ago, um, but we would never let you, our loyal listeners, go a week without Tasteland content, so... No, that would be horrible. [laughs] Can you imagine?

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[laughs] Can you imagine a week without Tasteland? I c- I certainly can't. No, not me. Some of you listeners did send us in some questions for this, part one of our mailbag, year-end episode, two-part series.

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This is what really gets me. So thank you for that. You guys have questions all the time. Mm-hmm.

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All the time, and when it's not time for questions, and then when it's time for questions, you know, we got some questions. Mm. But, you know- Disappointed. W- Wish it was more?

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I feel like I'm the one always asking questions. Everyone wants to be in a Dirt prompt. [laughs] Everyone's like, "Please."

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[laughs] I think Mariah Critter, who's, like, wonderful, she wrote a piece a couple years ago for Dirt about replying- Mm-hmm... and, like, the state of the reply.

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And I'm dying for her to write for us again, but she [laughs] b- I asked her our, our prompt, our latest prompt, which was, like, gas station order- The gas station order, yeah... which is great for holiday- Mm-hmm...

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road tripping because even if you are doing not a long road trip, you probably do the gas station stop. Yeah. And she was like... Her tweet was like, "I was born to, like- [laughs]... kiosk, like, low stakes bullshit."

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I, uh- And then in parentheses, like, "Non-derogatory." Um- It's kinda like that meme, you know, like, who wants to do X, and everybody raises their hand. Yes.

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[laughs] And then, like, who wants to do Y, and nobody raises their hand. Right. And it's like, who wants to, like, ask us a question when it doesn't matter? Anyways, um- Yeah...

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you didn't ask me my gas station order, but if I'm doing the ro- Oh, I alternate. What's the last thing? Well, no, it's okay. I'm not o- You were on iPhone Notes. That's why. I'm not offended.

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You know, I just wanna- You seem a little offended. I just wanna... [laughs] I just wanna sit on my soapbox here and say what it would be. Um- Okay, go on. Go on. Okay, so let's...

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You know, I- I'm generalizing to any gas station in the country here. Mm-hmm.

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'Cause normally I'd like to get, like, a Guayaki Yerba Mate or other mate product, you know, as an alternative energy drink, drinker, um, often unavailable, so I will get probably a Starbucks vanilla latte bottled, those cold ones, and then, like, a, a Twix, and then, um, some sour cream and onion SunChips.

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Okay. Just imagining all of those just, like, duking it out- Together... in your stomach is so- [laughs]... visceral, but, like, I can't fault it. That's a perfect order. Oh, thank you.

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Um, some people did have, like, regionally specific. Mm. Like, Kat gave her Buc-ee's order. That's fair. And then Matt Rodebaugh, his was regionally specific. I'm trying to remember. I'm, like, blanking out on it.

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I was listening to his podcast just the other day. He's, he's great. Yeah. Sheetz, Sheetz sub. Sheetz. Ordered at the kiosk. Mm. Oh. Italian double mayo, pepper jack, lightly toasted.

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Sheetz is the, is the Pennsylvania one, right? I think so, yeah. Yeah. I- Sheetz, and I mean, there's Wawa. We c- Oh, yeah, yeah. [laughs] I've been to a Sheetz once recently. Uh, it was, like, a y- a year or two ago.

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Bizarre place. They have so much food. They have so much food. I got... It was actually disgusting. I ate a quarter of it, and I, I didn't eat the rest. I got a, a pimento cheese sandwich there.

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Love a pimento sandwich- Mm-hmm... when you get it in the South. Don't love it when you get it from a Pennsylvania gas station. You should've known better. Yeah. What was on it other than pimento cheese?

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Um, I don't, I don't know that there was anything else on it. You know what pimento cheese is? Yeah, of course I know- Yeah... what pimento cheese is. I'm not a barbarian.

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[laughs] I didn't know what it was until, until I worked at a, a cafe in New Orleans where I had to make it. Oh, right. Your New Orleans chapter. New Orleans chapter. We should do...

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We haven't done our New Orleans episode yet. We'll have to. I'll put the readers on game. I'll give you... I'll give the, uh, the listeners the recipe for that pimento cheese.

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So I don't know the exact ratio, but you take... We would take some Cabot cheddar, some good- Mm...

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white cheddar, sharp, um, a, a bunch of Hellmann's mayo, mayo of your choice, and then some, uh, hot cherry peppers, pickled hot cherry peppers, and you just chop it all up, and that's it.

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So you make it with white cheddar, but isn't it usually orange? Yeah. Well, the orange came from, in our situation, like, the red pepper and the pepper ju- the pepper, the pickled pepper juice. Got it.

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Got it, got it, got it, got it. Mm-hmm. Okay, for some reason I wasn't imagining the peppers being red. That's my mistake. Mm-hmm. I think we should start with Pete asked about our over, under list.

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Um, this year's- Pete delivered. Pete asked a lot of questions Asked a lot of questions. Thank you, Pete. Thank you, Pete. Pete also gets a shout-out.

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Pete got a shout-out in the podcast I recorded with you recently when I talked about Pete coming up to me at, uh, FWB Fest, introducing himself, and I was on mushrooms, just a little bit though.

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Um, so that's Pete, Pete of that- Shout out to him. Yeah, so this is Pete's maybe second or even third shout-out. I think I've alluded to Pete before. Mm-hmm. Okay, wait. So, so he's asking for our over, under list.

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Yeah, over, under. This year's most over-hyped and under-hyped- Mm-hmm, mm-hmm... things. Um, I have to say, I usually... These, like, over, under or in, out lists, I've, um, I rarely dabble in them.

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There's always too many of... It's like gift guides. Are you too good for us? No, th- there's too many of them. It's... I mean, I, I, I find it...

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I get, I get the exercise, and it's fun to do, and I'm gonna do it now, and I, I [laughs] did prepare some, but I'm always like, you're just...

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It's always like this person's just telling me what they like and what they don't like. There's... You know? Like, it's rarely ever actually an actual prediction. But that's okay. Oh, right.

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It's always, like, a sub tweet of somebody else too. It's always a sub tweet, exactly. [laughs] Yeah. It's always, like, so deeply personal.

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But I'm gonna start and say that, um, one over-hyped thing for me, restaurants in general. Okay. Coming out the gate hot.

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Um, do you care to give a supporting argument for that?I do I'm glad you didn't do that on our Blackbird episode. [laughs] No, and let me be clear. I love- Let me be clear... restaurants. Let me be clear. Uh-huh.

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I love restaurants. Um, but it's more of the, like, the having to wait in line, and... Sorry, Ben- Well, I don't wait in line... but, like, we- Exactly. Perfect.

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But it's, it's also the, like, you know, and I'm a culprit of this, the, like, waiting until the reservations release on Resy to get the thing. It's... And see, this is where it's, like, so personal.

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I'm trying to exercise this demon from myself of, like- Mm... uh, you know, of submission to the hype of any given hot restaurant. Um, so two restaurants I would put this on, two restaurants that I like.

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Superior- Supe- Superiority Burger. It's a great restaurant. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. I've enjoyed eating there, um, but it's over-hyped. The, it- it's a good restaurant, but it shouldn't be so mobbed.

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The other one, Radio Bakery in Green Point. Mm-hmm. I love it. I haven't been for, like, over a year because it's, you know, a couple neighborhoods away, and I know there's always gonna be a long line. So good.

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Divine pastries, some of the best pastries and focaccia sandwiches I've ever had. But, um, okay, when I say it's over-hyped, too, what I mean is...

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Maybe what I mean by restaurants in general being over-hyped, I really mean, um, people making Instagram content about restaurants. Okay. That's more specific.

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Well, I mean, I told you about my epigenetic trauma around The Big Dig, but I also feel like I have epigenetic trauma around lines. Like, when I'm waiting in a line, unless it's to, like, check out somewhere,

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you know, with a, with something that I'm about to purchase- You should already have the product in hand... Right. Right. I feel like- Mm... something bad's gonna happen. Yeah. You know?

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And I'm almost like, you know- What, like a car, like, driving into the line or something? No. Just, like, I feel like there's something deep in my DNA that's like- [laughs]... "Get out of line. You shouldn't be here."

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[laughs] Get- You know? Like-... You're out of line. [laughs] You know, this isn't, this is gonna end well for you. Um, yeah, like recently I went to Theodora. Mm. You know Theodora? Uh, heard of it, but I- Yes...

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Similar to Hank's, I've heard of it, but I [laughs] forget what it is. Uh, please remind me. No, it's okay. So Thea is, like, the bakery, and then Theodora is the sit-down restaurant, sort of like...

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I don't know what type of food it is. I guess- New American- Well, Greek... and Italian? Mediterranean. Yeah, it is considered Mediterranean. [laughs] Okay. Um, seafood focused. Yeah.

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So, you know, it's on, I guess, I don't know if it's technically Fulton. Mm-hmm. Over by, like, that, um, you know, like, the Lafayette stop on the C. Yeah. Yes. No, I don't know. [laughs] Okay. Whatever, man.

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Um- Yeah... anyway, I went recently. We had a reservation, but we still had to wait in line to, like, go in the door, and it was- Mm-hmm... like, really... I was like, "This is-" I do know what that is.

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It's, It's by, like, Strange Delight. Those all... There's a bunch of restaurants right there. Exactly. Strange Delight- Mm-hmm... which I wanted to go to, speaking- I love Strange Delight. Yeah... of New Orleans.

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Um- Yeah... so you have to wait in line even though you have a reservation, and I was like, "This is really hard for me."

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[laughs] Like, everything in my being, every- Waiting in line when you already have a reservation should be illegal... every fiber of my being is like, "Get out of line. Run around." Yeah. Mm-hmm.

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"You don't have to be here. You made a reservation."

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And then you go to get a martini three blocks away, and then it, as soon as you get the drink, they text you that your table's ready, and you have to come back immediately. Well, like, our table was ready. Yeah.

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It was just, like, there's... Part of it is there's, like, construction happening, but, like, you have to form a line to get in the door, whether you're telling them, "I want a table"- Mm-hmm...

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or you're telling them, "I already have a table." Yeah. So. That's bullshit. Okay. What next? Uh, give me one of your over-hypeds. So I actually...

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Dirt did an overrated prompt around the same time that this old GQ overrated, um, feature from the '80s or '90s, somebody, like, scanned it and uploaded it. Oh, okay.

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So everyone was talking about it, and we did an overrated list. So I, like, went back and looked at my list to be like, "Do I still agree with this?"

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Or were there, like, these, like, specific sub-tweets that I was getting out, like, two months ago? And the thing is, I do agree with all of this still. [laughs] I added one.

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Um, so I'm just gonna list them off, and then you can zero in on whatever you want to scold me. Okay. I might interrupt- Okay... as, as the, the case may be. Overrated. Alo Yoga. It's a psyop.

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I don't know what to tell you. Like, these are quince basics with Alo embroidered on them. I understand that's, like, everything- Mm-hmm... you know, status related.

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But something about Alo Yoga in particular is whatever. It's- The, the Soho culture of it all. It's similar to the waiting in line thing. It's kind of the same core- Yeah... sin.

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So it's the same- I mean, it came out of nowhere, and it's, like, with... I mean, we had Tihany on the podcast. With her, with Outdoor Voices, there was, like, a slogan and a value system- Yeah...

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that went along with it and, like, a lifestyle story. I don't know what the Alo Yoga story is. It just, like, appeared one day- Mm-hmm... to me at least. It's raw- Um, and-... consumerism... raw consumerism.

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Okay, so Alo Yoga, um, at the time, so Terry, Terry Nguyen had put onto her list that working for yourself is overrated. I feel like not working for yourself is overrated, but that was sort of a response- Hmm... to her.

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And I said, "Sorry, Terry," in parentheses. Baja Blast, I'm always hearing about it. I'm not a Mountain Dew drinker to begin with. I've never had it. I never will. So guess what? I don't wanna drink the Baja.

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I fully- The M train? Oh. [laughs] I don't know what that was about, but, like, I do think it's overrated. I'm sorry. Uh, could not, could not agree less. You love the M train. Well, I- Well, do you live off of it?

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I, [laughs] I've lived off the M train- So you have Stockholm-... for, like, four years... syndrome. It's not Stockholm...

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Well, okay, this is actually related to, um, working for yourself versus not working for yourself. Everybody I know who lives on the M train, um, and has to commute to work- Yes... has a gripe.

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I don't have to commute to work. Okay. So for me, the M train is actually, actually a luxury product- So if you had to use it-... and a luxury experience... Oh, it's a luxury product- Yeah, you know-...

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because you don't have to use it. Well, it's, you know, it, the gripe is that it moves a little slower. Uh-huh. Um, and that, you know, oftentimes it gets cut off at Delancey/Essex. It doesn't continue on.

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I have no issue with that 'cause I'm often usually just going as far as Delancey/Essex and then walking, and then I love that it's slow because I'm usually commuting to leisure activities like shopping or eating. Mm-hmm.

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Um, and it's, it's above ground, big luxury. It's a slow above ground-Love the M train. Um, moving on, but- Okay... I, I couldn't disagree more. Fine. Apple picking. Fine.

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It's properly rated, pro- probably overrated, but- Properly rated? You... Okay, you have a bag of apples. [laughs] Ta-da. You're not gonna eat all of them anyway.

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I've never gone apple picking, but I think it probably gets too much hate. It- it- it's... It c- It's not properly rated. It's probably a little over-hyped. Yeah. But it's not, like, vastly over-hyped. Anne Hearnow, I

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was hearing for so long, I... You know, I read her, like, more of her personal history, which is great. It's like a snapshot- Mm-hmm... of a time in, you know, France and what it was like- Mm... to grow up there.

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But then everyone's like, "You gotta read, you know, the diary of this affair that she had with, like, this Soviet guy, and, like, it's so romantic." It wasn't romantic to me. It wasn't erotic to me.

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First of all, it wasn't even that sexy. Second of all, like, it was, like, the most horrible situationship in detail, um, among, like, people who should know better. I'm sorry, I couldn't get into it. Yeah.

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There are more romantic books. [laughs] Um, hypergamy. Do you know what that is? I don't, no. Hypergamy is, like, when you marry somebody above your social class to try to advance yourself. Yeah. Dumb.

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Here's the thing, like, just marry somebody you love. If you meet them really young, you end up kind of raising each other.

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If you meet them when you're old, you end up having to undo the damage everyone else did to them. Mm-hmm.

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By the time you, you know, start interrogating, like, social class and- It's kind of profane to interrogate that and label that. Exactly. It is very profane. Mm-hmm.

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And then, like, it just never really works out for anyone. Mm-hmm. Um, because we all have different potential and different achievements at different times in our life. Mm. And, um, yeah, I think it's weird.

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It's some- You know, I just watched a movie about this called Anora. I watched Anora last night, Francis. Oh, nice. And I had to wake up at 6:00 AM to finish my stuff 'cause we watched Anora. Oh my God.

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But it was worth it. Um, Anora, I would say correctly rated. Correctly rated. I agree with that. But the next thing on my list was the c- cast of Challengers. [laughs] Overrated, don't wanna hear about them anymore. Mm.

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Well, did you- Which is interesting given what's something that's on my underrated list, but that's fine. Oh. But I'm saying, like, the cast specifically. Mm-hmm.

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Well, I was gonna say, I mean, Josh Connor, I did see La Chimera. Uh, I liked it. And then also- That's on my underrated list. Yes. Okay.

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Well, before we get there, I also saw just yesterday as we record that, um, these are always baseless rumors, but that he is the- James Bond... exactly, current leader for the next James Bond. So I'm like, sure.

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No, it should be Idris Elba. Like, what the heck? I agree. I agree it should be Idris Elba. Um- It should be Idris Elba. [laughs] I'd take Josh Connor, but he's a little too cute for it.

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Josh Connor, he's a little too cute. Yes, yes. That little nose. You know? Yes. Yeah, I agree. I... He's just like... James Bond should be world weary in some ways. Yeah. He should have serious baggage.

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Daniel Craig was perfect. Love him. Yeah. Anyways, moving on. Overrated, talking about your mental health. [laughs] Probably. It's important, but I don't wanna hear about it. Sorry. Grin and bear it? Is that...

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You said grin and bear it? No, I'm saying that people confuse talking about it with working on it. Mm. Okay. So you're- People confuse going to therapy with doing the work of therapy...

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people confusing the theory for the praxis? Theory for the praxis, that's right. [laughs] Look, talking about your mental health- Uh, yeah... manifesto. Mm-hmm. Working on your mental health, praxis.

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[laughs] And the people who are talking about it, they're always the one who are, like, not doing the best at the praxis, and it's like, no. Yeah. Okay, wait. I don't know what else to tell you.

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I wanna, I wanna drop one of my over-hypeds. Um, and, and this one I'm kind of subtweeting you here, though I, I- That's great... this was already one of my over-hypeds before I realized it could be a subtweet of you.

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Um, Accidental Bronson, the Twitter account, and then also when people call something a Renaissance painting. When have I ever called anything a Renaissance painting?

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You didn't, but you retweeted an Accidental Bronson tweet yesterday as we record this.

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It was the one where it's like, "My 39-year-old s- I'm 39, and I just lost my son in the Earl sweatshirt pit," or some- something like that. I don't know. [laughs] But my problem, so my problem with this is like- Sorry.

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No, no. The, the, the thingy was funny. I was just more related to the s- this anecdote itself. Exactly.

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W- which is exactly my point, the anecdote itself was funny, but I think the Accidental Bronson framing is, is horrible. It's like, it's Boomer vibes. I liked... I listened to plenty of Action Bronson- Yeah...

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a decade ago. You know? Um, I've watched plenty of his Vice Munchies Food YouTube show, whatever. Yeah.

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Um, but it's just one of those things where it's just like, come up with something more orig- like, change the name or something, but I don't know. Whenever people call- No, thank you for holding me accountable- Yeah...

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and calling me out on that because I've been engaging in a lot of slop recently. [laughs] Pen was like... I clicked over to my for you page.

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It was awful, and I was like, "Oh, I'm default on that, and it's not going well." Yeah. No, me too. Uh, the following tab sucks. You're, you're calling everyone that you follow on Twitter, you're saying that they suck.

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No, no. The problem is they're not tweeting at a high enough volume to- Yeah, exactly. That's the thing... fulfill your dopamine needs, except for me. That's actually the thing. That's actually the thing. Yeah. Yeah.

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Well, okay, this actually feeds into my next thing, which is flats, both the shoe and the wing. [laughs] Drumsticks forever. I would love to see Action Bronson drumsticks only edition.

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I'm agnostic on the drum, on the, on the drumstick versus flats equation. Whatever. You can't be agnostic. You have to pick one. I don't. Uh, there's a time f- you know,

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to quote, um, somebody who will appear on this list, "There's a time for everything." Post Post Outlet, first episode- Oh, God... Talon came up. You know, he's a OG Outlet.

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This is sort of, like, actually I'm s- I was really happy with the reader's choice list for Dirt. Mm-hmm.

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I don't think there's any choices that could've been made where I would've been unhappy with it, although it was obvious some people were voting for their own stories. [laughs] But, um- Mm-hmm...

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the stuff that won won by a good margin. Yeah.

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And Greta Rainbow's story about Honor Levy's, um, my first novel, but also, like, what it says about the state of Outlet and, like, Post Post Outlet got our funniest, like, laugh out loud award from the readers, and I think it was a good encapsu- encapsulation of everything that's wrong with it, which is, like,

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p- some people moved on and made- Mm-hmm... novels for the internet eras. Other people just stayed in-The internet novel- Yeah...

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as like a novel that doesn't really have any reason to exist except for to try to create the internet on the page. Mm-hmm. So that's why I'm saying it's overrated. Mm-hmm. Um- That's fair.

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I wanna- Parasociality- Wait, I do wanna give a shout-out to Greta Rainbow for her review of La Chimera in the Los Angeles Review of Books. That was a really- Gang, gang... excellent review. That's so true. Mm-hmm.

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And we love Greta. Um, okay, parasociality. Is it over-hyped? Yeah. I think, uh, uh, to me this is something you can't call over-hyped or under-hyped. I, I agree that it's probably over-hyped. Mm.

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Um, but I think it's more like so... Well, may- maybe this is why it's over-hyped. I feel like it's so just elemental to like the world today.

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Maybe it's just 'cause I spend so much time online and like literally my job is to like research creators and like what it means to be a creator. So like to me it's just like

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such an elemental thing, where it's like saying like rocks are [laughs] over-hyped or under-hyped. Um, but you're right that it actually is probably so deeply over-hyped, and you should free yourself of it.

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Here's my thing. But not, not if, not if, uh, [laughs] you have a parasocial relationship to this podcast. Truth bomb.

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Even your most intimate relationships are constrained by the fact that you can really only have a relationship with the version of somebody else- Yeah, yeah... as you understand them. Yeah. Yes, exactly.

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We've all seen the, the little chart. Mm-hmm. So, [laughs] so if that's true about your most intimate relationships, like why...

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I don't know, put effort into that and, and that level of understanding instead of like having relationships with the idea of like a micro-celebrity. Mm-hmm. You know what I'm saying? No, yeah, I agree. Okay.

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And then the last thing, this is my last one. It's the only one that I added this morning. It's a big one. Okay. Legal weed. [laughs] Legalization, great. The actual- Mm... experience and culture- I'm going to-...

130
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around legal weed kinda sucks. Is this, are you sub-tweeting Rose Los Angeles? I'm really not sub-tweeting anyone. Here's the thing. Like I, this is not original thought. Mm. I feel like this is a neutral thought.

131
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This is not a value statement. I don't like smelling weed everywhere. Mm. But I don't care. Yeah. It's more so like it needs to be like much easier to get or like much harder to get. I, I agree with you there.

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Um, I think like... I don't know. I've lived in places where w- I mean,

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uh, you know, when I lived in Portland the last like two years or so I lived in Portland, it was legal, and there it was like ridiculously easy to get, and it was so cheap, and there was dispensaries everywhere. Yeah.

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And then here there's like... I miss like- This is kind of a New York complaint, honestly. It is, yeah. Because like Maine, it's, it's legal in Maine, and it's much more chill. Like, I don't know. I thought what was...

135
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I li- I liked when it was like, um, bodegas. Now, I mean, a lot of them still have it, but like, uh, bo- bodegas just had pre-rolls.

136
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So it's like if I was gonna go somewhere, I was going to the movie theater and I wanted to smoke a joint before, I could just like- Mm-hmm...

137
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go into the bodega right by the train station and like give him $10, he gives me the thing, and then I have it, and it's like so quick. There's no like- Like a pre-roll, yeah. Yeah, pre-roll.

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But then that stuff too is often like so bad. So like there was a time like, uh, this summer when I got one of those, and I smoked it, and I was like, "I feel bad." Like, that was like rat poison or something.

139
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Like, so in that way, it's like whatever, the legal weed is fine. But then you have to treat it like the grocery store, where it's like, oh, I need to like get... 'Cause you don't wanna go so often. Um, anyways.

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Well, I think like some people, and also like I don't think that they're necessarily related, but you also have to ask yourself like, "Do I really need to be high for this?" [laughs] Like- That's true. That's true...

141
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um, but- The answer's probably no. Yeah. The answer's probably no. But, um- Um, okay, let's, let's move to under-hyped. Yeah. So I'm gonna start with cured meats.

142
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Um, you know, tinned fish has been having this moment in the sun. Mm-hmm. It's probably been on the over-hyped and under-hyped lists for like three years now. Shout out fish wife.

143
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Um, I'm sure it's on some of those lists as we speak. Uh, but cured meats. No, that's 100% right, and speaking of bodegas, like Bekah Shiu- Mm-hmm... Bad Waitress, she comes up [laughs] a lot on this podcast.

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The Bad Waitress, yes. The Bad Waitress. She has this tweet about like wanting to have like, open a bodega or like store, corner store, whatever that would just be like cured meats, magazines- Yeah...

145
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and I think like cigarettes is the other thing. I mean, that's kind of like the dream job. Yeah. But, you know, to live in a society th- where you can [laughs] have that.

146
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Like Casa Magazines, but if it also sold prosciutto. Isn't it... So is the solution there just to move to Italy? That's the solution for- I've never, I've never been to Italy...

147
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a lot of things I don't know if it, if it's actually the vibe. Can't believe you've never been. Yeah. Um, I'm trying to go back. Mm-hmm. Um- I've only been to Venice. Okay.

148
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So my experience of Italy is actually very limited as well. I wanna go to Rome. Uh, long, long meals, another under-hyped one for me. Oh. Three-hour-plus meals. Speaking of Italy, love a long meal. Yeah.

149
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Um, you know, we had, I had like my girls' holiday dinner at Gage & Tollner earlier this week, and that was a long meal. I think it could've been even longer. How long were you there?

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But we did keep it going by going up to The Sunken Vessel, which is their like- At the bar, yeah... cheeky speakeasy that does like a little bit of a Disney World situation. It does.

151
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I like when a restaurant has that because it like makes it so they can still kind of shuttle you out and turn the table, but you're still like enjoying the party. You haven't left the vibe. Yeah.

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I think, how long was our meal? No, it just wasn't that... I mean, it must have just been like an hour. I mean, there wasn't really an effort to super draw it out. Mm-hmm. We did order dessert. We had the Baked Alaska.

153
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Um, I hadn't had Baked Alaska in forever. I thought it was great. I did think it was gonna be, come to the table and be set on fire in front of me, so I was a little bit like, "Okay." Yeah.

154
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Um, and then I had- You like a table-side, table-side-... coffee... is under-hyped for you. I loved it. I loved everything about it. Mm-hmm. But I would, I would have extended it to three hours if I could. Yeah.

155
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I think three hours is the perfect length for a meal, but you need-You need at least three people. Two people isn't enough, but I think three people for that You need a lot of courses and a, a pacing- Mm-hmm...

156
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a commitment to the pacing. Um, but you know I love a post-dinner espresso, and- Oh, yeah... gonna add time with that. I love an affogato. Affogato, fantastic. Mm-hmm. Would you...

157
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I would say affogato is correctly rated. Um, I'm gonna say, I'm gonna say yes, because in actuality they're probably under-hyped, but I don't want them to be any further hyped. That's correct.

158
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I would agree with that 100%. Yeah. What's next on your list, Francis? Um, [laughs] I'm gonna go with, uh, Dune 2. [laughs] Never saw it. I saw it twice. Um, and this is a two-parter, a two-part under-hyped.

159
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Uh, I saw it the first time, whatever, normal theater. I saw it the second time

160
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in IMAX, and I'm gonna say IMAX is under-hyped, but this is one of the, the sins of the over-hyped, under-hyped list in that I'm only saying that because this... I had never seen a movie in IMAX before this year.

161
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So this is a recency bias under-hyped where I'm saying IMAX is under-hyped. There should be more, uh, IMAX screens the size of the Lincoln Center screen, which is what? Like, it's like 90 feet wide, 70 feet tall.

162
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It's some shit like that. Um, what an experience. The cinema, I- I can't believe you only lost your-... just ruined... IMAX virginity this year. Yeah.

163
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A canon event for me, and I would say, like, I want to extend this to people that grew up in Massachusetts, if you grew up in Massachusetts and this is true for you, get in touch. Mm-hmm.

164
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So we had an IMAX theater that I think was like near or adjacent to the Boston Aquarium. Mm. And I have such a distinct memory. There was this movie that came out about Everest- Oh...

165
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and they were taking school children to it. Why? I don't know. Everything- Why'd the people die?... about Everest is so fucking traumatic. Yeah, it is.

166
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There was a part in it that, in IMAX, where there's an avalanche, and the snow comes towards you, and like, I just remember, like, you're like an elementary school kid where I'm like, I'm like 11.

167
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[laughs] And I'm visually suffocating, [laughs] like... And then my dad also took us to see, um, in IMAX some movie about U2. [laughs] And, um- Was this around the time that they, um, flooded i- I was-...

168
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iPods and iPhone too? Yeah, it would've been around the same time. Yeah. It was some movie about U2, and I was like...

169
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I ga- I must have been like 12 or 13, but I was really, I, I was really attracted to Bono, and I was like- Mm-hmm... "I feel funny." [laughs] Like, and this- The real life leprechaun, yeah.

170
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[laughs] I was like, "This man is... I like this man." I don't know. Like, [laughs] it was, like, weird. [laughs] And he's like s- That's so funny... it's IMAX, so he's, like, singing in your face. Oh my God, yeah.

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You wanna, like, scale his nose. Yeah, I was just like, "Oh my God." Um, anyway, those are my two IMAX things. Mm-hmm. But, um, there was also, if I'm remembering correctly, an IMAX...

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Well, okay, so they had IMAX theaters, but they had ones with, like, moving chairs. There was some sort of interactive- Yeah... theater inside Jordan's Furniture, which we could do a whole episode on Jordan's Furniture.

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That, I mean, we can't... We don't even have time to get into it, but speaking of New Orleans, Jordan's Furniture, just gonna bring this home. Huh. Jordan's Furniture [laughs] it's a furniture store with, um, that was

174
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basically, like, themed around the French Quarter with periodic, like, um, performances by, like, kinetic statues. Yeah. I mean, rest in peace, Umberto Eco. You would have loved Jordan's Furniture.

175
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I'm so sad that he never got to go. [laughs] Um- To, to patronize this wonderful furniture store... because it was like, you know, hyperreality. Mm-hmm.

176
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And they sold couches, and also, like, Cajun Tolner, the thing that I was gonna say about the upstairs speakeasy is that, like, they do, uh,

177
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every once in a while, it's almost like Pirates of the Caribbean, this, like, fake fog, whatever, smoke, whatever it's called, dry, dry ice. Mm-hmm. Yeah.

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Just, like, floods it, and then there's, like, an announcement that's, like, about the ship. [laughs] Wait, at the- And I was like, "Okay"... at Cajun Tolner? Like, the speakeasy- At the sunken vessel...

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upstairs sunken vessel. Oh, never mind. [laughs] And it reminded me of a piece that I read in Slate recently. Apparently, like, Gen Z is keeping Rainforest Cafe in business.

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Oh, this, okay, this is like- Because this is the thing... such a meme... though, when all of this stuff came out, this was, like, the Umberto Eco, Baudrillard, like, hyperreality, like- Yeah... we're losing touch.

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But now those experiences of hyperreality of, like, Rainforest Cafe and Epcot, and then the Epcot-ification of everything is actually, like, more visceral and real of an experience to have with your friends than, like, going online.

182
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Yeah. So it's now, like, we've, like- That's true... circled back and, like, actually Epcot is good now because, like- Yeah... at least you're not on your computer. That makes sense.

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Um, I'm gonna give one more of my under-hyped- No. Oh, you wanna alternate? Why don't you just do all of yours, and then I'll do- Okay... all of mine? Um, natural fibers. Whatever, man.

184
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[laughs] You've never worn a bamboo shirt? They're so soft. I'm w- I, I've been wearing... I have, I maybe have one bamboo. I'm wearing linen right now. Mm-hmm.

185
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Um, I'm often wearing a hemp cotton mix, this brand Jungmaven. Um- Okay... big fan. Uh, natural fibers. Love linen. Love hemp clothing. Oh, wait, I forgot we're doing underrated. I agree. Yeah, underrated.

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Sorry, I forgot. Oh, you thought this was over-hyped? Just for one second. [laughs] Yeah, no. Um, so natural fibers, but- I agree... after that I'm gonna say Karl Ove Knausgaard. Oh my God.

187
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I think he's currently- Under-... rated. Um- You know why? Because I talk to men in their 30s. [laughs] I'm saying he's under-hyped because I finished his latest book two nights ago.

188
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[laughs] Well, why- And it was so good... well, maybe everything outside of My Struggle is under-hyped. Um, yeah. My, My Struggle's good, which I've read...

189
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He has so many books now, but I've read a number of them outside. So his, I think it's his second novel is that one I was referencing, A Time for Everything.

190
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Haven't read that one in nine years, but I think about it a lot. It's like a-Bible... It's three Bible retellings basically. Right. It's him, like, doing, doing his thing on, like, Noah's Ark, Cain and Abel- Mm....

191
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and probably Adam and Eve. Um, but the one I just read is called The Third Realm, and it's the third in what I thought was a trilogy of books, but apparently now there's gonna be at least two more. Um, so- Surprise...

192
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the guy just loves writing extremely long series. But it's kind of like, it's kind of like if... I mean, the same kinds of things that we love about My Struggle, but converted into fiction and, like, the...

193
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So the first book, there's kind of, like, nine characters. It's again, like, a 500-page book.

194
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Um, there's a bit of a sci-fi, like, otherworldly element, but it's mostly, like, still these people in this small town in Norway going about their lives. Mm-hmm.

195
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Um, and, like, there's, like, you know, some, like, small connections between them. But this... And then the second one is, like, more of...

196
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Like, basically a lost My Struggle, where it's, like, this one main character, and then there's, like, a second character, and there's, you know, he gets into, like, essays within the book where he's, like- Mm...

197
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getting, like, you know, trying to... theories of reality and transhumanism or whatever. I don't know. Um- I like to call him Karl Rove mouth guard because- [laughs] That's good...

198
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because I just do it so much that, like, basically, like, I know that Ben's gonna, like, wanna say his name, and he's gonna, like, not be able to say it correctly because I've said- Yeah...

199
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Karl Rove mouth guard so many times now. So you're manipulating, you're manipulating your husband. Mm. Yeah.

200
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But I've manipulated myself as well because I went through a period where I would call Knives Out Knives Wide Out. [laughs] And so now anytime we wanna talk about Knives Out or Eyes Wide Shut- That's a good one...

201
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there's, like, a, a momentary brain glitch that happens. Yeah. That, that... I, I kind of had a collapse of reality there. Um- [laughs] I, I will say, so the, this third Knausgard is the, the best of the books. Okay.

202
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It's kind of like a mirror of the first one, where it's- Mm... like, a lot of the same scenarios.

203
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It takes place at basically the same time as the first book, but it's, like, from the perspective of, like, the other characters in these scenes. Mm. Where instead of, like, the- Oh, interesting...

204
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the Knausgard stand-in, who's, like, this, like, you know, kind of depressed, dejected, um, professor, academic and, you know, he's with his wife and two kids, uh, on holiday.

205
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It's, like, from the perspective of the wife, who's, like, this, like, kind of bipolar artist. Um, anyways, it's so good.

206
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There's, like, this amazing chapter where he, like, takes you into this, like, you know, black metal concert at th- in this barn in Sweden, and it's this black metal band who's, like, so anti-commercialism.

207
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This is actually an interesting detail. A brief spoiler, skip ahead about 90 seconds if you are going to read Knausgard's The Third Realm.

208
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But, um, it's this metal band that's so anti-commercialism that, like, they don't have... They don't record their music. The only way to see it, to hear it, is to, like, hear them live. Mm.

209
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Um, and this is from the perspective of this girl who's, like, dating the lead singer of this band, and she's, like, digging through his, um, his suitcase.

210
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And this is this detail that really stuck out to me that is never revisited. Maybe it will be in a later book.

211
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But in the suitcase, he has some Balenciaga and Orle clothes, and she doesn't recognize the labels, and it's such a contrast where it's like, why is this, like, anti-commercialism philosophy student, black metal student, wh- h- how is he wearing Orle and Balenciaga?

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Mm. Um, and why does Karl Ove Knausgard know what Orle is? Um- You're asking the right questions. Yeah. So this is [laughs] what's really lingering on my mind.

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But, um, yeah, Knausgard, you're right, he's probably correctly rated, but every ti- every time I come back, you know, I just... He keeps bringing me back in. That's good.

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I mean, that's a good experience to have with an author. Yeah. Uh, my last under, [laughs] my last under-hyped, this is the most lazy one, um, watching soccer. Yeah, no, that's real. I agree. Yeah. Um- Funny...

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it's been interesting lately as a Spurs fan as well. Hm. Uh, yeah, yesterday as we record this, there was, uh, quite a score line. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. So okay, my underrated list. Les Chimères, I already said that.

216
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Um, okay, so I'm, like, sort of off post-post Outlet, but what I'm on is works in translation, and I read three works in translation... Well, actually four in particular this year that I really liked.

217
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So I read a book called Love Novel by Ivana Švachová. Yeah. I believe it's, um, translated from Czech. Mm-hmm. Fiori by Clara Mendoza, which is originally written in Spanish. If Only by Vigdis Hjorth, which is, um,

218
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takes place in Denmark. Okay. Um, and is a corollary to some of the works and themes explored in The Copenhagen Trilogy- Hm... um, which is an older work, trilogy that I read last year by Tove- Is that good?...

219
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Ditlevsen. I always hear about it. I always see it on bookshelves everywhere. I think that you would like it. Yeah.

220
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So yeah, Copenhagen Trilogy by Tove Ditlevsen, which I read last year, but this year I read newly translated poems by Tove, um, a collection called There Lives a Young Girl in Me Who Will Not Die. Mm.

221
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And that collection officially comes out next year. So I'm like, "Okay, if you're getting bored with the internet novel, like, read more works in translation."

222
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I love works in translation, such as Karl Ove Knausgard's My Struggle- Okay... and The Third Realm. [laughs] All right. Um, no, I, I do- All right. Enough of that... I, I will say, I, um, Archipelago Books- Mm-hmm...

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is a great publisher, which I did discover through Karl Ove Knausgard's A Time for Everything. But, um, big sh- buy Archipelago Books. They're so good. The, they're such great physical objects.

224
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Um, but always, you can always rely on them to put out interesting works. Um, my other one, Fernet and Coke with Lemon. That's a good one. That's a really good one. Thank you. Mm-hmm. Um, The Metro North.

225
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See, this is your version of the M train. No, it's not, because it's never down, and it's never late. No, but it's the, the, [laughs] your primary train. Fine, yes. Mm-hmm. It's a luxury. Then no, I agree. It's...

226
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The Metro North is great. I don't think I've taken it this year. I don't think I've taken it since, uh, I don't know, probably went to Beacon in 2023 or something. That was- Yeah. Okay, well, you're overdue. I am, yeah.

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For sure.Do you know the band Nourished By Time? I never heard of them. Okay. Well, their EP Catching Chickens was one of the best EPs or albums that I listened to this year, and- Mm-hmm...

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not enough people have heard of them. So that's on my underrated list. Hmm. Ooh, wait. And then the last thing- Okay, sorry, go ahead. Okay. Well, my last thing is randomly texting your friends that you love them.

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That is nice. That is nice. We should do that more. Mm-hmm. Just randomly texting friends, acquaintances, eme- I got an email from somebody I'd spoken to earlier this year, just a nice holiday note.

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Um, you know, send the message. People love to hear it. So nice. Thank you so much. Um, I was gonna say- I love a good correspondence... an underhyped for me, uh, do you know that song Better Off Alone? Yes.

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Do you think... Yeah, by Alice DJ. Uh-huh. Of course. Um, under... So that song, correctly, correctly rated- Mm-hmm... correctly hyped. Um, but every other song on that album is underhyped.

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That's one of my like- Interesting... like, I'm writing, I'm doing work, I need to get in the zone, I'll listen to that album, Who Needs Guitars Anyways, on repeat.

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I discovered this, like, two years ago now, but I'm still doing it. So good. Okay. That's a good, that's good alpha. Yeah. [laughs] Is that the end of, is that the end of your list? Um, yeah, the...

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Okay, I, I did have two things I didn't mention on my overhyped. I'll just say them- Mm... really quickly. Mm-hmm. All apps, and, um- 100%... the Jaguar rebrand. Oh my God, the Jaguar rebrand.

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Okay, but was it overhyped, or was the, like, discourse overhyped? Uh, the point is moot for me. It's both. I don't, I don't need to extricate them. I think that, like- Okay... it, it's... Well, it's the discourse.

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It is the discourse. But I think just, like, ca- [laughs] Yeah. Yeah, that's right, caring about that is overhyped. It's- Caring about it, 100%. I agree... this goes back to, um,

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I've talked about this a few times, I think, on this podcast already, the, the book I read recently, Content by Kate Eichhorn. Um- Yeah... d- d- and the idea that content begets content.

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That's just a classic scenario of content begetting content. Yeah, I agree. Um- Wow... should we cover any more of, uh, Pete's questions? I think we've said a lot of those. Pete, Pete had some good ones. Let me look.

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Um- Mm-hmm... "Are you mad at me?" No, Pete, we're not mad at you. We love you. "Is it too much deer?" So I think... So Pete is part of a small Telegram chat where we send moss memes, deer memes. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

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You know, I had a tweet, you know, maybe about a month ago, about how I would love to know more about deer, but there's no magazines about deer that aren't about hunting them. That went viral. Hmm, I remember this.

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And apparently a bunch of people agree. It crossed over to Instagram. So, you know, Pete's been sending some deer stuff, and I would say it's not too much. It's, it's the perfect amount. Deer are,

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I think, maybe underrated, but- I guess. Deer are correctly rated. They're a lovely animal. Yeah. What... Oh, A- also asked about what we ate for breakfast and what we're wearing. Hmm. Um, so I am wearing

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one of two LA Apparel- Was this throwing fits?... cropped sweatsuits that I own. All right. Mm. Well, it would be throwing fits if we had to do that first. That's the first... Yeah, that's why we're doing it last.

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We're doing it in the middle. Okay, wait, continue, and I'll do mine after. Okay. So I have, like, two of these L- LA Apparel crop sweatsuits that I wear, like, seriously all the time. I have a pink one and a blue one.

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The blue one's in Maine. I'm wearing the pink one right now. His and hers. If I'm home, I'm probably wearing it. Um, it's great. I love it. I, I kind of want more in different colors. I tell everyone about it.

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So that's what I'm wearing, and then I'm wearing, like, some On running sneakers that I bought with the thought, very stupid thought, that if I bought expensive sneakers, I would have to run 'cause I would feel guilty for buying them.

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Not true. That's a classic mistake. Really classic mistake that I was too old to make, but I am wearing them, and I am, have not gone running in them in probably at least a year. And what did I have for breakfast?

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I had an English muffin. Um, I set part of Ben's English muffin on fire, but that was handled. Um, my mom sent us these extra thick English muffins, and as I was putting Ben's in, like, a big- So not Thomas?

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No, not Thomas. A big chunk flaked off, and I was like, "That's fine," but it actually lit on fire. Um, and I also ate... This is a little unorthodox.

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I did have a quarter of the Al Pastor burrito that I had for dinner last night, um, after I ate the breakfast- Cold or did you refry it? I love refrying a burrito. No, cold. Like, chop it up, like, a chopped burrito.

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Cold, and I dipped it in sour cream. Hmm. And I also had a large iced coffee. Nice. Um, I had for breakfast, as I often do, a small bowl of muesli, just muesli and water. You would. Yeah. Um- You would...

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you got, you know, got to... Heart health. Heart health. Um, with a cup of coffee, Devocion, Colombian, single origin. Um, and then what am I wearing?

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I'm wearing a vintage, uh, bought on eBay, '90s Bob Dylan T-shirt. Uh, a couple years ago I was looking for Bob Dylan merch, and, um, there's...

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It's either really expensive and, like, old, or there's a good amount of this weird, like, tribal m- tattoo kind of motif, um, Bob Dylan fan club merch from the '90s. So that's that. I'm wearing this purple linen R.

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Legacy, um, shirt. Big fan. Um, overhyped, overhyped brand this year. Um, and then some kind of, like, almost corduroy, but it's like a grid instead of just straight, these corduroy pants I got at

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a Goodwill somewhere along the Hudson. I forget where. Mm. Yeah. And then some, uh, Tsubu Dusen and Dusen MOMA slippers that I was given as a- Whoa... that I was given by my last job for...

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A bunch of us did this project, and they gave us all these slippers. Good fit. Really good fit. Yeah. Yeah. Mm-hmm. They're my work from home fit. Um- I think, I think we should end the episode there, right? Yes.

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And then, uh, yeah. Thank you for listening. We'll see you guys next week. Enjoy the holidays. [rock music] It tastes just like it costs. Honey.

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It tastes just like it costs