WEBVTT 1 00:00:00.100 --> 00:00:15.640 [upbeat music] Welcome back to Tasteland. I am Francis Zehrer. And I'm Daisy Alioto. And Daisy, who are we speaking with today? Today we're speaking with Julia Black. 2 00:00:16.240 --> 00:00:22.240 She's a tech and business correspondent at Vanity Fair. Recent move, by the way, so excited to talk about that. 3 00:00:22.930 --> 00:00:29.940 Uh, her work has been published in The New York Times, MIT Technology Review, Wired, The Verge, and many others that you would know. 4 00:00:30.680 --> 00:00:40.520 Um, she formerly worked at Insider, where she broke news about powerful figures like Dave Portnoy and Elon Musk, one maybe more powerful than the other. [laughs] Who, who knows? Hard to say. 5 00:00:40.560 --> 00:00:50.600 Um, she also worked at The Information, where she wrote a lot of features, investigations about the tech industry's role in shaping politics, which is extremely relevant this week, and we'll definitely get into that. 6 00:00:51.120 --> 00:01:03.560 Yes. Looking forward to getting into that. Um, Daisy, w- something I have to ask you about, on Twitter the other day, you posted a picture of firemen in your apartment. What was that about? Yeah. 7 00:01:03.680 --> 00:01:15.120 So I s- I heard them, like, coming up in the hallway. Like, I heard commotion that sounded like EMTs, and my upstairs neighbor's, like, a little bit elderly, so I opened the door and I was like, "Hey, is Tony okay?" 8 00:01:15.800 --> 00:01:24.500 And they were like, "Tony's fine, but he thought that he smelled gas." And I was like, "Well, I didn't smell anything, but, you know, you can, you can come in." 9 00:01:25.060 --> 00:01:33.540 And so, like, five guys, like, one of them holding an ax, just start traipsing- [laughs]... through, and, like, my apartment was, like, a mess, and- Traipsing even. 10 00:01:34.260 --> 00:01:42.670 I just thought it was funny that there were so many of them, so I got, like... I, I was like, "Oh, I gotta get a pic of this," but I was, I was trying not to be... I was trying to be inconspicuous. Oh, yeah. 11 00:01:42.670 --> 00:01:50.650 So what I ended up getting was, like, this lovely picture of, like, the back of one fireman and then, like, another fireman just appearing around the corner, which was, like, so Big West. It's not... 12 00:01:50.660 --> 00:02:00.160 I don't think it's impolite. They're in your apartment. [laughs] That's true. Um, so it was, like, it was so, like, not a big issue, but I thought it was a funny photo, so. Yeah. 13 00:02:00.640 --> 00:02:12.220 I mean, it, it, it piqued my interest enough to remember it a week later. It was a little... I was microdosing a little bit of drama. Um- Mm... there was no, no gas situation as far as I'm aware of. Um, I actually... 14 00:02:12.340 --> 00:02:20.780 I thought you were gonna ask me about Tasteland's Industry cameo, but I guess the- [laughs]... the fireman in my apartment was more interesting. [laughs] Much more interesting. Well, okay, let's l- I... Here. 15 00:02:21.260 --> 00:02:28.410 So here's the soapbox. Step on it. Industry. Okay. Well, no, I think you step on it- I haven't, by the way, I haven't even s- I have not started the new season yet. I'm behind. 16 00:02:29.060 --> 00:02:36.920 Well, I think so- we should step on it together 'cause Tasteland- [laughs]... has achieved new heights. Yes. Um, something that I said in our... Was it episode seven? 17 00:02:36.960 --> 00:02:42.940 Tasteland could be nominated for an Emmy if you really think about it, transit property. Yeah, guys. Tasteland, credited writer on HBO's Industry. 18 00:02:43.140 --> 00:02:55.120 Um, uh, something that I said in our conversation with Mickey and Conrad, um- From a year and a half ago... in September 2024, um, was, became [laughs] became a line on Industry. 19 00:02:55.740 --> 00:03:07.390 Um, and I will say, like, when I- Good on them... I wouldn't... I don't remember everything that I've ever said. I had recently reread the transcript 'cause we ran the interview ahead of the season. Mm-hmm. 20 00:03:07.390 --> 00:03:11.820 And so when I... when he said- It's a little behind-the-scenes how the editorial side-... the line... works for you, listener. 21 00:03:12.190 --> 00:03:16.780 Yeah, I mean, I was pointing at the screen, like, meme style, AirPods in, I was like, "Wait a minute." 22 00:03:16.820 --> 00:03:26.180 [laughs] It was the perfect Easter egg because they said nothing to me about this, and I haven't even said anything directly to them, although they liked my post about it- Well, so in, in, in-... and so did the actor... 23 00:03:26.300 --> 00:03:36.640 in America, your story begins when you start telling it. Yeah. Yeah. Mm-hmm. So you're welcome. Thank you. Like, I loved it. I think great artists definitely 24 00:03:37.620 --> 00:03:42.230 are stealing things all the time, and I don't even consider it stolen. I think it's great, and I'm so happy- Mm... 25 00:03:42.620 --> 00:03:56.480 that that was, that, uh, that Tasteland episode will, will have a, a lifetime beyond, you know, this podcast. So... As long as, as long as Industry stands and the, the, the gear [laughs] functions. Stop there. Yeah. 26 00:03:56.520 --> 00:04:04.240 We've achieved immortality, guys. So this will be our last episode. [laughs] I'm just kidding. [laughs] Um, yeah, so that was super exciting. 27 00:04:04.300 --> 00:04:14.920 And the other thing I wanted to tell you, I thought of you this morning, so [lip smacks] um, Dirt Books has, like, some advisors who are volunteers, and I wanted- Mm... to do something nice to them, 28 00:04:16.160 --> 00:04:27.080 nice for them to thank them. For them. Nice to them. [laughs] No, to many of them. [laughs] Um, I wanted to do something nice to thank them, so I said, "Can I take you all to dinner in New York?" Mm-hmm. 29 00:04:27.640 --> 00:04:39.960 And there's five of them, so there's six of us, and a couple of them are vegan or vegetarian. So my goal was, like, I'm gonna try to get a reservation at Semma- Mm... which is a one Michelin star, 30 00:04:41.080 --> 00:04:48.870 uh, Southern Indian restaurant that has had- Yes... a lot of great accolades. I've never been there. In the West Village. Mm-hmm. Me neither. I did- I had a reservation once, but ended up not going. Anyways. 31 00:04:48.960 --> 00:04:58.820 West or east? Oh, yeah, I guess west. It's in the West Village. And they have really good vegan and vegetarian options. Mm-hmm. So I was like, "This is my goal," right? And, um, 32 00:05:00.580 --> 00:05:07.020 the reservations open, like, whatever amount of days in advance, maybe, like, 10. Oh, you're Resy sniping. 33 00:05:07.840 --> 00:05:17.940 Yeah, but I ne- this is, like, the first time maybe ever that I've, like, sat on Resy and waited for nine o'clock to hit- Mm. Yeah... refresh and grab the res. Which I've talked about doing. I did a dr- Yeah. 34 00:05:17.960 --> 00:05:24.760 We've talked about doing it. I did a dry run yesterday. This is how serious I was about it- [laughs]... 'cause I was like- A dry run? [laughs] ABCV is the fallback. 35 00:05:24.820 --> 00:05:39.180 ABCV is, like, old faithful, lovely meal, great ambiance, but it's not as buzzy, right? Mm. And I really, like, I want this to be special, right? So I did a dry run yesterday because it's for the 11th. 36 00:05:39.220 --> 00:05:48.980 The 11th didn't open until today, so yesterday- Yeah... the 10th opened. I sat on there at 9:00 AM, I refreshed and I saw, okay, how fast do I need to be? Then that was the dry run. 37 00:05:49.080 --> 00:05:59.080 So then today when the 11th opened, sat refresh, did the whole thing. Um, and I got it. So I was, like, really happy- Congratulations... but I was like, "I feel like Francis," and I was like, I... 38 00:06:00.360 --> 00:06:06.500 You would have to be kind of addicted to the adrenaline of doing this to do it 'cause it, like, kinda sucks and is, like, not practical at all. It does. 39 00:06:06.620 --> 00:06:14.190 No, it's, it's terrible 'cause you have to take time out of your day to do it. I, I have not done that for quite some time, but- Like, I had to set alarms so I wouldn't forget, you know what I mean? Yeah. 40 00:06:14.200 --> 00:06:17.317 Like-No, the- I'm excited... I, yeah, I've, I've done the alarm. I've... 41 00:06:17.348 --> 00:06:24.408 There's times where it's, like, for a birthday, whether it's mine or my fiance's, where I was like, "Oh, there's, there's, like, one or two restaurants I would love to... 42 00:06:24.508 --> 00:06:34.948 This is a great excuse to go," and then I'm just spending, like, two days trying to do that. Anyways, uh, yeah. I, uh, I hope you have a great time at Semma. I've been to- Thank you... Damaca, um, there at their- Okay. 43 00:06:35.108 --> 00:06:43.088 Is that the sister restaurant? Yeah Yeah. Previous. Also quite good. I never went there. It's quite good. But yeah, Semma seems to be a little more posh. 44 00:06:43.908 --> 00:06:48.728 Well, the other reason I was, like- Being not an Essex market, being a, it's own building, for one. [laughs] Right. 45 00:06:49.008 --> 00:06:59.278 Well, I did receive an invitation from one Matt Rodbard to come back on the Taste podcast, so I feel like I need to accumulate some recent food and restaurant- Some restaurant [laughs]... 46 00:06:59.308 --> 00:07:07.208 experiences and stories, 'cause I'm pretty... I'm kinda boring. I go through long periods of culinary boringness, especially- Yeah... 47 00:07:07.248 --> 00:07:18.668 this, um, this weekend, where I was snowed in with, like, a bag of oranges and some sandwiches, so. Mm. Um, be- being snowed in was great. I went to the local bakery in the morning and got a loaf of bread. My f- I... 48 00:07:18.868 --> 00:07:28.348 Later, my friend made split pea soup. I went over there. I made games. That's giving Michael Clayton. Mm-hmm. Great movie. Anyways, Julia is here, so let's go talk to her. 49 00:07:32.648 --> 00:07:45.928 [upbeat music] You wrote three pieces on embryo selection. Um, I don't know if they were all published last year, but, like, over the last couple years certainly. I think the most recent one was in October. 50 00:07:47.228 --> 00:08:02.028 I learned the term pre-implantation genetic testing for polygenic traits, which if I'm understanding this right, is essentially the scientific term for eugenics, which I guess is also a scientific term. 51 00:08:02.068 --> 00:08:12.988 [laughs] But more, like, of a popular term at this point. Wow, Francis, really coming in hot. [laughs] Some would argue. Some would argue. Yes. Um, there is... It's such messy terminology. 52 00:08:13.068 --> 00:08:22.818 I mean, I've had so many editors struggle with, like, "Oh, isn't there an easier way we can say it?" But, like, if you wanna be technically correct, yeah, that's what it is. You're, you're testing 53 00:08:23.908 --> 00:08:35.208 the g- genes of five-day-old embryos. But yeah, pre-implantation genetic testing for polygenic [laughs] traits. [laughs] Is the only way to do that... Potentially a stupid question. 54 00:08:35.228 --> 00:08:50.408 Is the only way to do that if you're doing, like, IVF and the embryo spends time outside of your body? Or do people... Can people do that if the embryo is, like, um, in... Oh, it never leaves your body. Yeah. 55 00:08:50.508 --> 00:09:03.468 So definitely for, um... I mean, obviously pre-implantation refers to pre-IVF implantation. Mm-hmm. But, um, it is interesting. As a pregnant woman now, I'm having this experience of, um... 56 00:09:03.508 --> 00:09:13.148 There is quite a lot of genetic testing kind of built in to- Mm... the pregnancy process that is s- standard these days. Um, at, like, 10 weeks, you do a lot of genetic testing. 57 00:09:13.328 --> 00:09:23.348 So w- no one's doing that for polygenic traits- Mm... as [laughs] far as I know, which are, like, these complex, like, personality traits and rare diseases and things. 58 00:09:23.368 --> 00:09:35.428 But you do get a pretty comprehensive scan for, uh, single gene disorders, like, all these things, which, I mean, basically what that means is it gives you an option to terminate a pregnancy. Mm. 59 00:09:35.528 --> 00:09:42.648 But if you're, if you're testing a bunch of embryos for IVF, you get to pick the best one. So 60 00:09:43.728 --> 00:09:52.228 yeah, genetic testing is happening kind of across the board at this point, but to varying degrees and with different options for what to do with it. Well, is, i- is this something, like... 61 00:09:52.528 --> 00:09:58.707 Is this something accessible to normal people? From reading your work, it's... this is more of, like, the super rich are doing it. 62 00:09:58.788 --> 00:10:10.998 Like, what is the spectrum of, like, this being science fiction to more, like, reality for certain groups of people? Yeah. I mean, right now it costs up to $50,000, and that's on top of IVF, which is- Mm... 63 00:10:10.998 --> 00:10:17.008 already, like, 20-plus thousand dollars probably. Um, so no, I mean, it's not at all accessible. 64 00:10:17.388 --> 00:10:29.948 Ob- obviously, that's kind of always the argument for technology is there's these, like, early adopters who get access to a product or a technology that is very expensive, and then it can get more funding, and then it can 65 00:10:30.888 --> 00:10:36.367 get cheaper, and there's more competition, and there's more market for it, and, you know. 66 00:10:36.468 --> 00:10:57.808 Like, it's funny, genetic testing itself, which, of course, like, was brought to us by the H- Human Genome Project, I don't remember the exact numbers off the top of my head, but, like, initially to test a single individual genome, it cost, like, a billion dollars worth of research, and then today you can get consumer genetic testing for, like, a couple hundred bucks. 67 00:10:57.948 --> 00:11:02.648 So, you know- Is that because they're using AI- That, that does happen... as part of the sequencing process? 68 00:11:03.988 --> 00:11:17.078 That's a really good question, and I've, I've, like, always kind of assumed that AI would play more of a role in all this, but A- A- AI does not seem to be, like, the breakthrough technology here. Um- Mm. 69 00:11:17.188 --> 00:11:28.628 I can see, though- I think a lot of-... a startup landscape where people are gonna kind of, like, hedge on the ability to sequence your own genome at home, like, using some of these technologies. You mean... 70 00:11:29.448 --> 00:11:41.728 I mean, like, Theranos- People-... type stuff for, like, genome sequencing using AI. [laughs] Yeah. Yeah. I mean, it's funny 'cause, like, the whole longevity- Oh, there's a will, there's a way. Yeah. It- Yeah. 71 00:11:41.868 --> 00:11:56.738 [laughs] Um, there's a market for it. I mean, the Bryan Johnsons of the world and, like- Mm Mm-hmm Um, I think that, like, consumer- Somebody needs to take away her phone... 72 00:11:56.828 --> 00:12:05.628 I, I don't understand the logistics of how that's working. I have, like, DM'd her, and she's liked things that I've sent- [laughs]... but never responded. Okay. She can keep her phone. 73 00:12:05.708 --> 00:12:13.908 I mean, if she's, if she's vibing with you, it's fine then. [laughs] Yeah, that's what it's all about. But you're allowed to have your phone in prison if you like any of my tweets. Having my access. That's my rule. 74 00:12:14.078 --> 00:12:24.560 [laughs] Yes. Thank you, Elizabeth Holmes, for your likes. Um, but no, I can't tell if I'm communicating with her lawyer or her directly- Mm... or, you know-Does she have a burner phone? 75 00:12:24.600 --> 00:12:37.480 In which case surely they know about it. I don't know. I would love to tell that story. Although journalists are very- I guess with the low security thing. Yeah, exactly. She's not considered dangerous. 76 00:12:37.580 --> 00:12:44.760 Maybe she should be. Uh, speaking of dangerous, Francis and I have not recorded a podcast episode since the Substack TV announcement. 77 00:12:45.440 --> 00:12:57.560 Um, and I was thinking about that in the context of your story about TBPN, you know, whether Substack's gonna try to woo some of the stuff that started off as, like, Twitter native to the platform. 78 00:12:58.200 --> 00:13:03.329 Um, from my perspective, there's gonna be a, a lot of competition because- Yeah... 79 00:13:03.329 --> 00:13:17.580 YouTube already exists, has a lot of volume, and also recently I saw a headline that they've surpassed Reddit for certain types of searches. So that's gonna be, like, a tough thing to compete with. 80 00:13:17.700 --> 00:13:35.840 But I was pretty sure when I saw that the Chernin Group invested in Substack, that this was going to be something that they were going to require them to go after, um, 'cause that's always sort of been their MO, like pushing scale really hard and competition. 81 00:13:36.900 --> 00:13:45.720 I just, I don't... I'm gonna be honest, I don't really see it happening for them. I mean, it's funny that you bring up TBPN because, um, 82 00:13:46.880 --> 00:13:59.710 you know, if you read my piece, like, kind of, uh, against my own best interests, [laughs] I love TBPN. Like, they totally won me over. I think they're doing a really good job, and everyone's like, "Why do you like them? 83 00:13:59.780 --> 00:14:07.600 You shouldn't like them." And to put my finger on it, like, what I like is that it's very organic. These guys are clearly having fun. 84 00:14:08.240 --> 00:14:19.520 They come from this world that, you know, you can't replicate the relationships they have, you can't replicate so many things that make their show watchable, and yet you've seen so many other- Mm... 85 00:14:19.560 --> 00:14:31.629 business media platforms try to replicate almost, like, to a T this exact formula, and it's sad to watch. [laughs] Um, you know, they kind of called out, there was, like, seven competitors who've launched- Yeah... 86 00:14:31.640 --> 00:14:37.360 like, straight up copycats, and they're not working. So yeah, I mean, I think the same kind of applies. 87 00:14:37.400 --> 00:14:53.680 Like, these, like, media boardrooms are always, like, pointing at one very organic success story and being like, "Whoa, why don't we just copy/paste that?" And I don't think it tends to work. Um, yeah, I don't know. 88 00:14:53.800 --> 00:14:56.640 I will not be watching [laughs] Substack TV, sorry to say. 89 00:14:56.740 --> 00:15:07.500 I, uh, I've been on one Substack Live, our friend of the pod, Ben Dietz, uh, his, his SickTok show, and as somebody who rec- we're recording on Riverside right now, right? 90 00:15:07.550 --> 00:15:12.920 That's the software we use, and I think, uh, quite a large portion of the podcast market uses Riverside to record. 91 00:15:13.620 --> 00:15:22.480 What was weird, this was, I don't know, three months ago, something like that, what was weird about using the Substack Live app is you have to do it in the Substack app on your phone. 92 00:15:23.020 --> 00:15:33.560 And, you know, I have a nice microphone here, a nice camera that I use to podcast, and then I was just kind of having to use my phone, and the lighting was weird. The audio was bad. 93 00:15:33.600 --> 00:15:40.700 I'm having to use my, my, um, AirPods to, to record the audio, which, low audio quality. Everything about it was a horrible... 94 00:15:40.740 --> 00:15:49.440 And, you know, obviously I always should say I do work for Beehive, so maybe I'm a little biased. But I, I, uh... [sighs] It, it was- That's gonna have to change, though. 95 00:15:49.560 --> 00:15:59.270 Like, they're gonna have to choose between optimizing everyone into the app by brute force and optimizing the Substack TV product, and they're going to have to make it available on desktop. There's no way. They will. 96 00:15:59.460 --> 00:16:08.360 And I think they, they have. I think they since have. Yeah. But, but it, it's a hor- it was a horrible UX for me as the recorder- Yeah... for the audience, having, having to listen to a lower quality product. 97 00:16:08.520 --> 00:16:15.349 Maybe it's easier for Ben, being the guy who is h- hosting the video, right? It's very easy to just turn it on, record it, publish it. 98 00:16:15.349 --> 00:16:25.160 Like, that's all kind of automated, but I think that's the wrong user to optimize for, because the Substack customer is ultimately the, the consumer, the reader, the subscriber, right? 99 00:16:25.190 --> 00:16:34.160 Like, that's how they make their money. So I thought that was odd. I, I also... I mean, it's more in doing this they're trying to compete with, with YouTube, right? Like, that's- Right. 100 00:16:34.220 --> 00:16:37.360 Well, according to Holiday- Why would you compete with YouTube... The Hollywood, Holiday Reporter. God. 101 00:16:37.860 --> 00:16:46.649 According to The Hollywood Reporter, Netflix is much worried about, much more worried about Instagram right now, which I thought was very interesting. 'Cause they have the TV app now, too. Yeah. 102 00:16:47.220 --> 00:16:51.279 That, that doesn't, so that doesn't even make sense to me, and that makes way more sense than the Substack TV app. 103 00:16:51.300 --> 00:16:58.520 But, like, I don't, I, I loo- I wanna look at Instagram Reels when I'm, w- when, when I've got [laughs] things, like, that's on the TV. No, you wanna look all the time. You're, you're a admitted addict. 104 00:16:58.540 --> 00:17:10.900 Okay, we, uh, we talked about that last time. Um- I mean, the other thing I would add to that is, like, I think that the best thing, like, the most successful Substacks are truly, truly a bunch of nerds. 105 00:17:11.340 --> 00:17:21.100 Like, if you look at, like, the top list, like, these are not people who need to be on camera, if you will. Um, and I say that as someone who does not typically do well [laughs] on camera. 106 00:17:21.140 --> 00:17:31.660 Like, I, I don't know, it just seems like the wrong... You know, like- I mean, Francis and I don't wanna be on camera... clearly people love data. And, like, look at us, we're gorgeous. [laughs] I leave it to the pros. 107 00:17:31.800 --> 00:17:45.680 [laughs] Well- But yeah, like, I just, I don't know. I won't name names, but the Substackers I enjoy who also are really, like, high on the bestseller lists are not people who I think will thrive in this environment. 108 00:17:45.800 --> 00:17:49.680 So I don't know. I'm a big fan of, like, staying in your lane. 109 00:17:49.750 --> 00:17:58.920 [laughs] One thing, one last word on TBPN too, and you get into this in your piece, and I, I've, I think I saw a Joe Weisenthal tweet that summed it up pretty well too, maybe somebody else. 110 00:17:58.980 --> 00:18:10.500 But that they're, like, you know, they may be part of this industry, invested in some of the companies that they have on, like, so meshed up in it that it could not be further from, like, journalistic objectivity, right? 111 00:18:10.960 --> 00:18:14.900 But one, like, that's sort of a new norm. Like, you need both. 112 00:18:15.000 --> 00:18:36.320 You, or you need, like, journalistic objectivity, but independent creators, like, that a, a- a lot of the ones I've interviewed-On my other podcast, like they talk about like the ability to like own their biases and put those like front and center in their work as like a big appeal for them in, in going independent, and a big appeal for their audience in coming for them because it's more like it's stated there's always some sort of bias. 113 00:18:36.400 --> 00:18:39.920 When it's stated there, people like it. But also like they... 114 00:18:39.960 --> 00:18:50.560 I think there's a quote in your piece where they say how they have a stake in the tech industry becoming a better version of itself because they're having kids and they're thinking about that, and how they want this... 115 00:18:50.600 --> 00:18:57.980 They want the tech industry to be better than it is. So I don't know, I, I can't speak to who they were like before they started doing this show, and I don't watch it. 116 00:18:58.000 --> 00:19:07.920 Like I'll tune in every now and then if I'm scrolling Twitter and it's on, but they seem to be becoming ever more critical and journalistic in their approach. And, and you wrote about that. Yeah. 117 00:19:07.940 --> 00:19:18.860 I mean, I think if you look at the show, which is now almost a year and a half old, they've changed a lot. Um, their approach has evolved a lot. I really appreciate that they are open. 118 00:19:19.000 --> 00:19:29.920 In fact, it is part of the bit that they are sell-outs. Like- Yeah... they, they're not denying that. They get these sponsorships, they are wearing the brands, like- NASCAR style... uh, yeah. 119 00:19:30.000 --> 00:19:39.320 I mean, there's, you know, the TBPN hats and the... Exactly. They're, they're, um, in their F1 gear, sponsored by their own friends. 120 00:19:39.530 --> 00:19:48.540 And they'll interrupt, you know, they interrupted me like 50 times to be like, "Yeah, but have you considered switching to Ramp?" [laughs] Like it's part of the bit. Mm-hmm. So I actually really appreciate that. 121 00:19:48.620 --> 00:20:03.260 Meanwhile, there is another, um, competitor of theirs, a well-known like tech show, who I just learned does pay to play. Her guests pay her significant sums of money in order to appear on her podcast. Molly. 122 00:20:03.720 --> 00:20:13.990 And that is n- you said it. I didn't. It's gotta be Molly. I, I know. [laughs] Well... And, um, you know, that's the kind of thing you should be transparent about. Mm-hmm. 123 00:20:14.120 --> 00:20:24.410 And it ex- goes a long way to explain the way that those interviews go. And like I- I'm wearing a green rugby actually by pure coincidence. I'm wearing my most- [laughs]... 124 00:20:24.420 --> 00:20:31.860 Technology Brothers-coded clothing item, which is- I could get mine out. They- You've got your shirt on... it's my high school, it's my high school field hockey rugby. 125 00:20:31.880 --> 00:20:38.630 It's probably one of the oldest items of clothing I own, and I'll never get rid of it. But, um, even though my, my last name's like fading off the back. 126 00:20:38.840 --> 00:20:49.000 Um, actually, as you were saying that, I started percolating on a theory, and it's like I wonder... I, I have to think about how true this might be, but I feel like if you come into 127 00:20:49.900 --> 00:21:00.829 journalism in the format of opinion or interviewing, and you come in neutral, you end up more radicalized. Like they came in very neutral. 128 00:21:01.000 --> 00:21:12.180 I think that they're probably getting radicalized more towards a general skepticism the more people they talk to and the more BS or book talking that they consume. 129 00:21:12.240 --> 00:21:21.500 Because ultimately it's like you consume a ton of people's statements, and you start to be able to pattern match, "Wait, this is how often people are kind of like full of shit." 130 00:21:21.820 --> 00:21:35.180 But if you come in with a, a certain ideology, like maybe like somebody like a Bari Weiss, think about like she was more ideological when she started out. Definitely not around stuff that I... 131 00:21:35.220 --> 00:21:48.720 Most of the stuff she was more ideological around don't track with my beliefs, but I think you end up sanded down to be more neutral, um, when you come in as like a Bari. But I also think people can ping-pong. 132 00:21:48.770 --> 00:22:00.109 Like Tucker Carlson, he's definitely ping-ponged between- [laughs]... those roles throughout his career. Well, he's ping-ponging between like the spirit realm and planet Earth. So- [laughs] Yeah. I mean-... 133 00:22:00.109 --> 00:22:07.920 I can barely [laughs] Oh... Tucker, step away from the peptides. But I don't know- The zines help him commune with the spirits actually. 134 00:22:09.160 --> 00:22:17.609 It's, it's the same thing that happens to like people who are politicians, and like once you get a certain degree of power, you... 135 00:22:17.770 --> 00:22:33.820 or and you're inside the government, and you are dealing with the critics that are outside of the apparatus, it changes you because you have to see all of the roadblocks to perfection of, the perfection- Mm... 136 00:22:33.830 --> 00:22:47.210 of your ideology. And like everyone now at this point anticipates it. Like Zohrab Mamdani is not going to be a radical mayor because he can't. Now he's inside the power apparatus. Mm-hmm. 137 00:22:47.340 --> 00:22:49.040 I think there's a similar thing with journalists. 138 00:22:49.100 --> 00:23:02.040 Like the way that you operate on the fringe versus the way that you operate when you get proximity to power is different, but I think like proximity to power doesn't necessarily mean that somebody's going to become more of a sellout. 139 00:23:02.280 --> 00:23:14.560 I actually think that you can become less of a sellout if you're exposed to enough, um, like kind of enough hypocrisy and kind of end up ping-ponging back the other way. Yeah. 140 00:23:14.860 --> 00:23:23.940 Maybe Bari Weiss will end out, end up libbed out after [laughs] all her proximity- Uh, not her... to power and hypocrisy. I don't know. [laughs] Not her. I mean- Are you writing about her- I-... 141 00:23:24.080 --> 00:23:36.480 or have you written about her? I have not written about her. It is interesting, she did follow me, um, after I published the TBPN thing. Mm. So that was... She's the kind of person who- Does Marc Andreessen follow you? 142 00:23:37.420 --> 00:23:48.260 No, but he does block me. He followed and unfollowed me real quick. But he blocks everyone. Um, I- Oh, really? Yeah. [laughs] That was not long for this world. I'm... Well, I'm curious- Yeah, he does that... 143 00:23:48.300 --> 00:24:00.920 speaking of like blocking and censorship, um, what the heck is going on with TikTok? Because I'm seeing a lot of like anecdotal stuff about certain words being blocked or like, um, you know, reach being throttled. 144 00:24:00.940 --> 00:24:10.529 But when I went in just as like an individual, I was like, it's really buggy right now, and that's why like- Yeah... nobody can see the videos. But like where... 145 00:24:10.580 --> 00:24:20.960 Is there any sort of like concrete evidence emerging that there's a rhyme or reason to- This is in the context of, I think it was on, was it on Saturday that the ownership formally transferred over? 146 00:24:21.780 --> 00:24:31.112 YeahThat sounds right It was a few days ago as we record I know it was the Saturday New York Times, uh, paper edition [laughs] Mm. [laughs] Which I still read. Um, 147 00:24:32.212 --> 00:24:44.492 yeah, I, I think this is the problem with stories that, um, unfold live in real time online- Mm-hmm... on Twitter or wherever. Like, I had people asking like, "Oh, are you gonna write about this?" And, 148 00:24:45.592 --> 00:24:52.512 uh, first of all, I don't love doing quick turnarounds like that, but also, I was kind of like, I don't- I- this story needs to unfold further because we just don't know. 149 00:24:52.592 --> 00:25:04.852 I'm seeing now more evidence that, you know, the NFL, which normally every TikTok video they post has like six million views, had zero views on the videos they posted this weekend. So that's probably not censorship. 150 00:25:04.912 --> 00:25:16.192 That actually would lend credence to the idea that this was some kind of like outage, um- Hmm. Due to the-... caused by the Trump. Mm-hmm. So like, yeah, sometimes, sometimes Occam's razor just really... 151 00:25:16.272 --> 00:25:25.212 You know, it's like it's not always the conspiracy. Sometimes it's just the boring explanation, and, uh, the public has become more and more conspiracy-minded. 152 00:25:25.272 --> 00:25:35.582 And I, you know, I tweeted kind of like, "Oh, I saw one creator claim-" Mm. "... that she was blocked for mentioning ICE. Has anyone else seen anything?" That's about as far as I'm willing to go in terms of- Yeah... 153 00:25:35.612 --> 00:25:48.332 like taking... You know, this also happened with, um, [tsks] that like AI-generated DoorDash critique. Oh, yeah. Um, I don't know if you caught this, but like- I knew that was cap from the beginning. There was- [laughs] 154 00:25:48.392 --> 00:25:56.032 I mean, but the thing about like conspiracies like that that turn out to be fake is like it's also true. There's- Mm... a ton of... 155 00:25:56.072 --> 00:26:05.702 There's like a massive grain of truth to it because all the things in the post were true. Like, I've spoken to DoorDash employees. That's how the company operates. It's... 156 00:26:05.752 --> 00:26:12.042 So like if something turns out to be AI-generated, it... Our perception of truth is just so- Well, and with, with the TikTok thing too-... messed up at this point. 157 00:26:12.052 --> 00:26:23.522 But- It was like the stated goal of this acquisition to make, make it that, you know, China was not controlling this algorithm- Right... and that like American interests could control it. 158 00:26:23.652 --> 00:26:33.281 So like whether or not they're controlling it to this precise end, like that was the goal of this acquisition, was so American interests could control TikTok. Like, it- so like- Exactly... 159 00:26:33.352 --> 00:26:43.441 whether or not this is the, yeah, this is the exact permutation of that, like that's not a conspiracy. That was a stated goal. [laughs] Yeah. The broad strokes themes can be true, and the- Yeah... 160 00:26:43.452 --> 00:26:55.882 specifics not, but this is why like real journalism remains so important, because y- the New York Times is never going to publish that first draft version of the story. Yeah. Mm-hmm. 161 00:26:55.912 --> 00:27:05.441 They're gonna make sure that they have it airtight, and then you can rely on the fact that once it appears there, like it's confirmed. It's not- Well, yeah... speculative tweeting or [laughs] 162 00:27:06.112 --> 00:27:15.582 Even last night when I saw The Atlantic publish, like that Bovino, um, was out- Mm... I was like, "Okay, who else has this?" 163 00:27:15.652 --> 00:27:22.892 Like, I was waiting for somebody else to confirm it, whereas like for some people it's like if that's in The Atlantic, that is like God's truth. 164 00:27:22.952 --> 00:27:31.001 And I'm at the point where it's like if it's only in one of the major newspapers- Mm... it's not God's truth yet to me. [laughs] Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, and some things will never- No, I mean-... 165 00:27:31.012 --> 00:27:40.312 and it's never gonna be God's truth, like WMDs. You know, it's, uh, you know. [laughs] Yeah. No one's infallible, but, you know, like 166 00:27:41.232 --> 00:27:48.372 I heard from a source at OpenAI last night, um, that Sam Altman had put out an internal statement about Minnesota. Mm-hmm. 167 00:27:48.692 --> 00:27:59.912 This person was like willing to quote for me but wasn't willing to send screenshots, 'cause I guess OpenAI monitors those things. So I had this from one source. I went to all my other OpenAI sources. 168 00:27:59.972 --> 00:28:09.592 No one is getting back to me. I was like, "Oh, I really wanna tweet this. I really wanna like put this in a story," and I just didn't, because one source who doesn't even have screenshots is not enough. 169 00:28:10.052 --> 00:28:17.172 New York Times published it today. You know, it's frustrating to see. I would've loved to get that scoop, but like, you know, most... 170 00:28:17.482 --> 00:28:29.362 The idea is supposed to be that like a tenured and professional journalist will not jump straight to- Yeah... going live within like- Right... one person is not enough. The important thing is that you didn't- So too bad. 171 00:28:29.362 --> 00:28:31.221 [laughs]... compromise your integrity. Yeah. 172 00:28:31.352 --> 00:28:45.162 And I mean, speaking of integrity, like I saw you're in the process of working on and writing about the tech lash that's happening right now in your newsletter at Vanity Fair, which is voicier than some of the work that you were able to do at The Information. 173 00:28:45.172 --> 00:28:52.391 And I think, to Francis's point, like is sort of like what the media apparatus right now requires. Like the ability- Yeah... 174 00:28:52.422 --> 00:28:58.812 to be able to foreground your own perspective, but a- and not hide it behind this veneer of objectivity. 175 00:28:58.932 --> 00:29:11.702 But, you know, for the uninitiated, there was a lot of the right adjacent tech industry that went all in for Trump in a sort of- Yeah... 176 00:29:11.702 --> 00:29:18.122 mercenary way, but primarily with the argument being around economics, being around, you know- Immigration... 177 00:29:18.122 --> 00:29:29.792 wanting to be post-woke, liking certain types of immigration but not other types of immigration, depending on how well it suited them. [lips smack] And, you know, we have come... 178 00:29:29.812 --> 00:29:43.722 There, I mean, there's been a lot of a moments of reckoning in this term, but the, the murder of Alex Petri was really like this breaking point where for the first time in the term we're seeing like... Not scolding. 179 00:29:43.912 --> 00:29:49.392 I actually don't agree with scolding. Like, I don't agree with like publicly going to somebody and saying like, "Make a statement right now." 180 00:29:49.512 --> 00:30:00.322 I think like if you want somebody to make a statement, you should have the consideration and respect to message them privately and say like, "It would be really great to see you speak on this," at the very least. Um, 181 00:30:01.252 --> 00:30:18.712 but there's a dynamic that really haven't seen, um, i- in, in Trump's first term yet of people really paying attention to who is silent and viewing that silence as a complicity or at least like- Mm-hmm... 182 00:30:18.752 --> 00:30:33.280 a tacit acceptance of what's happening. And I have not seen the tech industry be this loud about-... politics in a very sort of like earnest way in a long time. 183 00:30:33.340 --> 00:30:40.500 And so, I mean, obviously you're writing about it, you don't have to give away everything that you're gonna write about or say. [laughs] But I'm curious, like, 184 00:30:41.600 --> 00:30:48.880 what, what's different about it this time from your perspective, from what you're seeing and from the people that you're talking with? Yeah. 185 00:30:49.640 --> 00:31:02.880 I mean, we will see how long any of this lasts, but it really strikes me as a notable vibe shift, um, as tired as that phrase is, [laughs] this is like the moment for it. Um, 186 00:31:04.240 --> 00:31:15.240 which of course the swing to the right was also a vibe shift that turned out to be pretty short-lived. I guess this visual of Alex Pretty was so intense and triggering. 187 00:31:15.780 --> 00:31:25.700 I mean, I know when I saw that video, I was like in complete shock. Um, that said, it, it is a little surprising to me that this is, this is the thing. 188 00:31:26.340 --> 00:31:49.340 Um, I think that it also happens in the context of like support has been slipping around tariffs and, you know, even the markets, which as you point out, like ultimately this [laughs] was kind of a craven play for positive economics, and like the market started to get a little shaky this fall, and I think some people's faith started to flag. 189 00:31:49.440 --> 00:32:00.760 Um, but yeah, you're, you're not only seeing these like public statements now from leaders in the space, including some fairly notable ones, I mean, the Anthropic CEO yesterday made a statement. 190 00:32:01.580 --> 00:32:14.240 Um, none of the other AI chiefs, and as I mentioned, Sam Altman made an internal statement that was pretty wishy-washy. Um, but you know, Vinod Khosla, Reid Hoffman, all those usual suspects. 191 00:32:14.840 --> 00:32:26.200 Yeah, that feels notable, and then I also have been kind of chatting with my sources on the right, um, more privately, and been pretty struck by the tone shift there. 192 00:32:26.880 --> 00:32:37.120 They're kind of saying like, "We can't really stand behind this administration anymore. This isn't working. Uh, check back in 2028." [laughs] Like that's, the vibe is... 193 00:32:38.180 --> 00:32:45.200 Uh, you know, for me, that New York Magazine cover story a year ago, that like the cruel kids table- Mm-hmm. Oh, yeah... 194 00:32:45.220 --> 00:32:55.160 that sort of felt like the peak of this like cultural dominance of the right, and it was one of those peaks where you know it's the peak and it's [laughs] kinda like, oh, this is immediately gonna become cringe. 195 00:32:55.740 --> 00:33:04.500 And so yeah, I guess like a year later, that's kinda played out. Like, the, the mood is not as celebratory. 196 00:33:05.140 --> 00:33:18.270 I was even at a like right-wing party this fall, I think it was September, where it was a pretty mixed mood, you know, a lot of talk about law fair. That was kinda their main focus. Yeah. 197 00:33:18.280 --> 00:33:30.330 But I was in conversations about JD Vance where people were like, "This guy is not it." [laughs] And that was- Mm-hmm... these were like true Trump believers. These were people who wanted like third Trump term, but like 198 00:33:31.740 --> 00:33:45.520 JD Vance is not turning out to be this legacy prospect that he was clearly handpicked for, so yeah, the confidence is really flagging pretty quickly after like so much golden age talk and, and 199 00:33:46.420 --> 00:33:58.200 so much like landslide victory. So I don't know. I think, I think for that to happen within a year is pretty striking. [laughs] Now it's like what happens for the next three years? We still have so much more. 200 00:33:59.260 --> 00:34:05.360 I think unfortunately a lot of people and the internet kind of fuels this mentality, 201 00:34:06.420 --> 00:34:34.850 know how to create a referendum on the status quo, but they don't know how to offer an alternate vision of the future, and the whole, like tech's whole thing is offering a compelling vision of the future, but when you really look at the benchmarks for what's been achieved in AI and other recent, um, developments, there's been some amazing scientific breakthroughs, there's been amazing like health breakthroughs- Yeah... 202 00:34:34.860 --> 00:34:53.270 but they don't come really from the heart of Silicon Valley, and there is a failure to, I think there's been a failure to offer a compelling vision of the future that is like organically of Silicon Valley and these top kind of, I guess it's not Fang anymore, it's Mango, I recently learned, like these [laughs] Mango companies. 203 00:34:53.270 --> 00:35:04.600 [laughs] So while that's flagging, it's like at the same time that's flagging, these really loud voices get super into politics and offering a compelling vision of the political future. 204 00:35:04.660 --> 00:35:14.070 But it really was just like a referendum on Biden and the status quo, and Bidenism was never even a really a distinct thing. It was kind of just like 205 00:35:15.600 --> 00:35:24.300 they kinda got sucked into a referendum on liberalism in general, and like, guess what? Liberalism's popular for a reason. The average person likes liberalism. 206 00:35:24.780 --> 00:35:34.720 They just don't like certain aspects of, um, the Democratic Party, which, like- Mm-hmm... who does? [laughs] And- Yeah... I would say the same thing about the left. 207 00:35:34.820 --> 00:35:46.120 Like, there are people on the left who are very good at critiquing and creating a referendum around the status quo, and that's really important, but it's not the same as being able to govern or hold power- Yeah... 208 00:35:46.140 --> 00:35:53.920 or be responsible with power. And the internet [laughs] just, it, it incentivizes dissatisfaction with the status quo. 209 00:35:54.560 --> 00:36:07.520 Um, but the right, the left, and the tech industry especially, since that's who we're talking about, need to get a lot- Yeah... better at actually offering substance. Yeah. 210 00:36:08.840 --> 00:36:21.420 Yeah, it's funny, I don't remember much from college, but I do remember I took [laughs] a Latin American history class and I had this assignment, it was like an in-class sit-down assignment, and the professor was like, 211 00:36:22.490 --> 00:36:35.640 "Summarize modern Latin American history in one sentence," and I, I, I was crowned the winner because it was something that was like, um, it's a pendulum swing between like right-wing authoritarianism and populism. 212 00:36:36.020 --> 00:36:43.900 I don't know, I guess it was perfectly concise. And like what that is, is like that's like the sign of a failed state. Like America has now entered that-... 213 00:36:43.980 --> 00:36:52.330 period where, yeah, we're gonna get these, like pendulum swings between right and left, and like, all that really signifies is instability. 214 00:36:52.420 --> 00:37:02.860 And, you know, when everyone's a reactionary, it's true, you're not like standing for something- Yeah... you're just reacting against. And not a productive way to run a nation, as we are finding out. 215 00:37:02.940 --> 00:37:18.960 So, you know, the center's starting to look [laughs] pretty good compared to- Well, and venture capital is fundamentally a reactionary business model, but the returns on those decisions are very far out, and that is almost the opposite of like what government is. 216 00:37:19.000 --> 00:37:24.300 Like, or what good government- Yeah... should be. Like, good government is like decisions that are made 217 00:37:25.280 --> 00:37:35.210 not as a reaction to something, that are where you see the return on [laughs] a relatively like short-term basis, and VC is the opposite. Every decision is reactionary- Yeah... 218 00:37:35.220 --> 00:37:45.860 and the consequences are so far out that like I could understand why somebody who's had their brain pickled by that business model for so long just does not live in the same reality as the rest of us. But like- Yeah... 219 00:37:45.900 --> 00:37:55.280 you know, for the rest of us, it's like if you can't afford your rent tomorrow or you can't like afford your groceries tomorrow, the consequences are immediate. 220 00:37:56.020 --> 00:38:03.520 And that's where, obviously, that's where populism [laughs] comes from, when you have that like huge disconnect. But, um, 221 00:38:04.600 --> 00:38:17.260 I do think, just to circle back, that this current backlash and discourse indicates that the roots of liberalism are deeper in 222 00:38:18.380 --> 00:38:29.360 the lives of normal people and their conception of what it means to be American than the loudest voices- Yeah... would want you to believe. Mm. Yeah. 223 00:38:29.460 --> 00:38:42.000 I mean, I don't know if you caught that hilarious tweet from Katie Miller, where she misunderstood Anthropic CEO Dario Amodei's usage of the term classical liberalism- [laughs]... to under- to mean wokeism. 224 00:38:42.190 --> 00:38:48.620 [laughs] And it's like, yeah, I, um, clearly there's some, 225 00:38:49.720 --> 00:39:03.020 some misfiring and misjudgment on behalf of the administration for how much like core values like that do matter across the political spectrum, and how much, you know, the Constitution still matters to people. 226 00:39:03.390 --> 00:39:08.920 [laughs] Um- Well, and also how symbolic people are in their politics, especially the generation above us. 227 00:39:09.000 --> 00:39:23.280 Like, I think there was a lot of criticism of pink pussy hats and holding up a sign or wearing a pin or putting a Ukraine flag on your house, um, from people who are like kinda Gen X and younger. 228 00:39:23.380 --> 00:39:36.660 But like, I think if you are older, like those symbols really mean something to people. Mm. And I think that came out a lot around the, um, the demolition of the East Wing. 229 00:39:36.780 --> 00:39:48.380 It's like that was sort of a breakthrough moment for some people, and it's like, well- Yeah... how is that, how is that your line? But a lot of people are very symbolic in their thinking. Um- Yeah... and 230 00:39:49.460 --> 00:40:00.160 they don't, they haven't had their, [laughs] their brains pickled by how memetic the internet is. Mm. And like, you know, memes on the internet are kind of like the opposite of having a stable symbol. 231 00:40:00.220 --> 00:40:07.890 Like, anything can mean anything. It's like Dadaism, right? Yeah. Like six seven, it's six seven. It's something that's signified- [laughs]... by itself. But for people- Yeah... 232 00:40:07.890 --> 00:40:20.480 who are like of the older generation, like if somebody puts like a yellow ribbon on their tree 'cause their neighbor is overseas fighting and they want them to come home, that means something. Mm-hmm. It's a big deal. 233 00:40:20.580 --> 00:40:29.470 It's not a meme. And there's a big divide there around like symbols, and I think people are realizing that there's, um, 234 00:40:30.380 --> 00:40:45.490 especially like the JD Vances who've kind of embraced like full millennial cringe Dadaism, like whoever's running the Homeland Security Twitter account, they're like underestimating the stability of symbols in- Huh... 235 00:40:45.700 --> 00:40:57.000 a large part of the American populace, that like- Mm... for some people, a s- like a, a, a certain visual still means something. The, the White House as a physical entity still means something. 236 00:40:57.060 --> 00:41:00.360 You're talking about these- And you-... symbols in terms of like generations a little bit too, but- Yeah... 237 00:41:00.400 --> 00:41:07.750 it's, it's really just about like it's, i- I think it's less about the generational divide than like the online to not online spectrum, right? The more online you are- Really good point... 238 00:41:07.760 --> 00:41:13.140 the more used you are- Yes, yes... to like the, the rapid pace of images and like to the fluidity of meaning. 239 00:41:13.240 --> 00:41:23.520 Whereas if you're not online, meaning is a little more rigid to you, and you're not so used to rapid proliferation of images that just kind of flash before you without, and, and you become numb to them. You're right. 240 00:41:23.580 --> 00:41:27.160 It's not a perfect correlation. No, but, but it, I mean, but it's, it's part of it, right? 241 00:41:27.280 --> 00:41:38.540 So it's like I'm just thinking of like my sister, who's not very online, and like I think [laughs] to her sh- symbols would mean a lot more to her than they do to me, spending my entire life looking at a screen. 242 00:41:39.510 --> 00:41:49.580 [laughs] But also like what underlies those symbols, and you can't just have an American flag for the sake of an American flag. Like, it's not just a pattern that gets printed on a bikini at a barbecue. 243 00:41:49.650 --> 00:41:52.720 [laughs] Like, it means something, and I, I think most people 244 00:41:54.280 --> 00:42:06.560 haven't spent the time reading things like Project 2025 or Curtis Yarvin manifestos or the things that really have intellectually- Or his shitty poem in that one outlet journal. [laughs] Yeah. Like, 245 00:42:07.800 --> 00:42:21.000 this fringe stuff that actually has been incredibly intellectually informative to key people in the administration, which is fundamentally anti-American, anti-Constitution. Like, like 246 00:42:22.000 --> 00:42:29.339 what these documents have literally argued for is dismantling the Constitution. [laughs] Yeah. So I don't know. 247 00:42:29.720 --> 00:42:42.320 It, it may seem fringe, but like if you talk to high-level administration officials, as I have, about what they've read over the last 10 years, like yeah- I saw-... there's nothing American about it. 248 00:42:42.500 --> 00:42:54.456 I saw this, um, I-X article yesterday. I don't read a lot of X articles. [laughs] But I read this one. Uh, it, it was- A complete abomination. The a- [laughs] the author was presumably a young founder in Silicon Valley. 249 00:42:55.076 --> 00:43:02.876 All I remember is in his bio it said, like, YC Winter '24 batch- Mm... or something like that. Mm. So presumably a young founder. But it was- Like the place for him to be... 250 00:43:02.916 --> 00:43:17.236 it was th- it was this really earnest, I don't know, 900-word article about how the tech aligning themselves, or tech as an industry aligning itself with, with this administration and with right-wing politics is bad. 251 00:43:17.256 --> 00:43:22.676 And I won't recount the whole thing, but basically he was making this, this pendulum argument you were talking about, Julia, where, like, this just... 252 00:43:23.076 --> 00:43:40.456 Like, like he was saying, like, "I'm in tech because I am an effective accelerationist, and I believe in technological process being good for humanity, and I want to be part of that, and I wanna drive that progress, and I want to make humanity more advanced and more powerful through technology." 253 00:43:40.976 --> 00:43:44.196 And i- in this very earnest way it was written, right? 254 00:43:44.226 --> 00:43:57.456 And he was saying that aligning, tech aligning itself with this administration and with right-wing politics is just bad because it will then erode public trust in tech and then make the next administration... 255 00:43:57.616 --> 00:44:07.836 A- again, just this reactive thing we're talking about, where then it's just gonna, like, make it so tech gets regulated into it, it, into a, a point where progress is impossible. 256 00:44:08.356 --> 00:44:16.136 And I, I f- I found it sort of touching in that, like, I don't always see that sort of earnesty, especially on Twitter. Um, but yeah. 257 00:44:16.196 --> 00:44:32.756 Th- th- there was this comment that was a reply to it too that framed 2020 as being Dems plus tech versus Republicans, then 2024 being Republicans plus tech versus Dems, and then that 2028 will be Republicans plus Dems versus tech, which I don't know how that pans out and how they're... 258 00:44:32.776 --> 00:44:34.876 But maybe it's just populism- Huh... versus tech. 259 00:44:34.976 --> 00:44:47.036 And, uh, the, the last thing [laughs] here too, do you think that people think of tech and VC as being the same thing, or do they just think of tech and VC as part of tech, like your average person who's not very online? 260 00:44:48.036 --> 00:44:54.946 I think they probably should see them as the same thing. I mean, different roles in the ecosystem, but- Mm-hmm... they're, they're pretty aligned. 261 00:44:55.656 --> 00:45:04.556 Though, uh, Daisy, I think your point about, like, the incentives of VC and tech are so misaligned from what the incentives of government [laughs] should be. 262 00:45:04.696 --> 00:45:14.106 So, like, reason number 362 why tech should not be running the government are like- I mean, DOGE was a failure, right? Like, what did DOGE- It really was... except leaking- And that's somewhat like, again-... 263 00:45:14.126 --> 00:45:28.676 social security numbers. [laughs] Yeah. Like, and I, I've spoken with people who were very pro-DOGE who- Mm... admit that it's a failure. So yeah, I mean, great. You got your year, and it's a failed experiment. 264 00:45:28.716 --> 00:45:40.796 [laughs] Unfortunately, now there's three more years to pick up the pieces. I, I genuinely don't know what we do with that. But- Oh, dear... um, very striking week in terms of admission of failure so far. And either... 265 00:45:40.836 --> 00:45:46.106 I mean, I, I think a lot of tech people are hoping that the administration will course-correct. You know, you have- Mm... 266 00:45:46.106 --> 00:45:55.936 like Jason Calacanis out there being like, "Trump will fix this and return us to the golden age," and like, "All he has to do is fire Steven Miller." And like, sure, firing Steven Miller would be a start. 267 00:45:56.116 --> 00:46:08.836 [laughs] Um, but I think part of the problem with how tech sees all this is that they're unwilling to acknowledge how intrinsically tied it all is. Mm-hmm. It's like 268 00:46:10.016 --> 00:46:18.876 d- you know, people were like, "Oh," like, "Just work on AI and don't talk about politics." That's an absurd claim. Like, AI is incredibly political, could not be more political. 269 00:46:19.286 --> 00:46:29.576 And I appreciated that about Daria's essay yesterday acknowledging that, like, you know, if you are concerned about democracy, like you have to be concerned about AI development. 270 00:46:30.216 --> 00:46:43.776 And w- we're seeing with, like, surveillance tools, with how DOGE, like, used AI databases for its work, like tech is going to be instrumental in shaping the future. So 271 00:46:45.176 --> 00:46:52.895 yeah, the argument that, like, politics should be detached and, like, tech leaders shouldn't weigh in, it's not like the same as pop stars weighing in. 272 00:46:52.916 --> 00:47:06.646 [laughs] It's not like, like, you know, like, oh, a, a coalition of pop stars against ICE, like, has a very different meaning from, like, tech leaders against ICE because tech leaders are equipping ICE with the technology they use for their work. 273 00:47:06.716 --> 00:47:15.526 And it's like- DOGE, the other day, Hootsuite signing a $2.3 million contract ar- around there with ICE, right? After years of saying they wouldn't do it. What is Hootsuite- Hootsuite?... gonna do for ICE? Hootsuite. 274 00:47:15.536 --> 00:47:24.366 Is that still around? [laughs] Apparently. So they can schedule their tweets? [laughs] I, I gue- look, I, all I know is I s- I saw it. [laughs] Okay, I missed that one. Sorry about this. 275 00:47:24.376 --> 00:47:29.386 I know Palantir- We're gonna have to fact check on that. Let me, let me, let me... Okay, I'll look it up. You know, Palantir- Yeah... 276 00:47:29.456 --> 00:47:41.716 every single AI frontier lab, Google, you know, like all these companies, yeah, they have huge government contracts. Um, and they're playing more and more of a role in shaping public opinion. 277 00:47:41.776 --> 00:47:50.566 How is any of that not political? It's like, yeah, I, I- One thing that I feel like I've learned in the last, what, five years is, like, 278 00:47:51.636 --> 00:48:08.036 if you can't not make anybody, um, make a statement or take action in the, in the exact same way that's, like, privately meaningful to you, but if you're questioning whether it's worth saying something or doing something and it's meaningful to you, you should do it. 279 00:48:08.056 --> 00:48:15.476 And I think this comes back to the simple thing. If it's meaningful to you to put a sign on your lawn, you should put a sign on your lawn. If it's meaningful to you- Yeah... 280 00:48:15.516 --> 00:48:17.236 to wear a pin on your lapel, you should wear a pin. 281 00:48:17.266 --> 00:48:28.696 And, like, my mother-in-law was like, "Hey, I saw this thing, like, I don't know if it's on Facebook, that, like, people are gonna go out and, like, hold a candle, like, to say that they don't agree with, um, what's going on with ICE." 282 00:48:29.116 --> 00:48:38.156 And she's, she's like, "Well, I went out and I was the only one holding a candle, and I- maybe I got the time wrong, and also, like, not everyone saw this Facebook thing." 283 00:48:38.176 --> 00:48:51.680 And I was like, "Well, if you, if it's meaningful to you to hold a candle, you should hold a candle." Like, I have a little- Yeah. I was like, "Well, I'll, I'll put a candle up in my window." Um-So I have these like... 284 00:48:51.960 --> 00:49:00.880 I had our, like, battery-powered, um, pillar candles 'cause I had them for the storm. And I just like, I, I put it in the window, and then I was like, "You know what? 285 00:49:00.960 --> 00:49:06.280 I kinda like the symbolic-ness of having a candle in the window." Yeah. And I just left it up. I've had it up for the last three days. 286 00:49:06.320 --> 00:49:19.310 It's like, I like to have a candle in my window 'cause it means something to me of like, it's a sign of, like, welcome, um, and it's a sign of, like, a light in the darkness. And I think a lot of like- Yeah... 287 00:49:19.310 --> 00:49:32.280 a lot of the bad discourse are online is like when people just start to attack other people's sacred cows- Mm... just because they're sacred, no matter, like, how important it might be. 288 00:49:32.820 --> 00:49:44.420 Um, so, like, well, th- you shot, they shot our guy, so I'm gonna make fun of, like, your guy. And once you enter that territory, it's very hard to get out. 289 00:49:44.540 --> 00:49:54.480 Um, and I think, like, you have to allow people to do things that are privately meaningful to them without it needing to be a huge, like, 290 00:49:55.640 --> 00:50:02.260 movement or a referendum on saying the exact right thing or doing the exact right thing. Yeah. 291 00:50:03.140 --> 00:50:14.700 Well, and a lot of tech leaders are about to learn the hard way how embarrassing it is to go along with the latest trend bec- I mean, at the end of the day, I'll always give, like, a 292 00:50:15.980 --> 00:50:29.110 David Sacks more credit than, like, a Jason Calacanis or, you know, a Mark Zuckerberg or frankly right now Sam Altman. Like, David Sacks may have extreme [chuckles] views and 293 00:50:30.100 --> 00:50:40.780 probably I personally do not believe what he believes, but, like, he believes it. And he's been on that side consistently, and he's fighting for it. Whereas, like, 294 00:50:42.000 --> 00:50:49.480 Mark Zuckerberg, like, you know, Meta's policy changes over the years, he's just going from one side to the other and, you know, 295 00:50:51.860 --> 00:50:58.940 I, I just think that ends up looking really embarrassing, and especially as those timelines of the vibe shifts are getting shorter and shorter. It's like, "Oh, you're flip-flopping every two years now?" 296 00:50:59.040 --> 00:51:13.040 Like, it just goes to show there's no spine whatsoever, and, like, it's just so cynical, and, um, if you're, if you're trying to align with whoever's on top, but whoever's on top is not there for [chuckles] very long, 297 00:51:13.960 --> 00:51:22.500 you're not gonna be able... Like, I don't know. It's the same with Dario. Like, he's con- been very consistent with his beliefs, and, and Anthropic 298 00:51:23.760 --> 00:51:33.940 has gotten a lot of pushback in the last couple years for being, like, the woke AI company, but they stuck with it. And frankly, if you look at the business model, like, they're thriving, which 299 00:51:34.840 --> 00:51:47.700 disproves this whole idea that you need to kiss the ring of the administration in order to thrive in this business environment. Like, Anthropic is currently leading in market share in enterprise LLMs. Like, they... 300 00:51:47.760 --> 00:52:01.640 Cloud Code has been, like, the most viral AI product of the last year. Like, they're kinda winning, and it's like they're winning despite going against the grain of what's currently popular. So I don't know. 301 00:52:01.680 --> 00:52:14.800 Be yourself is the answer. [chuckles] Um, let me say really quick, fact check this Hootsuite thing. So there's some conflicting things, but it, it's not untrue. So in 2020, they had approved a three-year contract. 302 00:52:15.180 --> 00:52:26.560 Employees protested. Two employees got laid off as part of that. But then Hootsuite decided to cut the contract. Now I'm seeing some conflicting numbers, but they have signed some contract. 303 00:52:26.620 --> 00:52:38.860 I'm seeing one place that says they've taken on $95,000 USD, it's a Canadian company, in contracts to conduct social media sentiment analysis for ICE. They're seeking more business. Huh. This other report is saying that 304 00:52:39.780 --> 00:52:53.130 the DHS has committed 1.1 million USD and spent more than 454,000, could be worth up to nearly 2.8 million. So r- number, the numbers are a little cloudy here. I don't know who to trust. But there was- Yeah... 305 00:52:53.140 --> 00:53:02.110 Hootsuite did try to partner with ICE in 2020. People protested. They pulled it, and now- Hmm... they have reneged on that. Social media sentiment tracking. Yeah. Inconsistent. 306 00:53:02.110 --> 00:53:11.780 I did not know that was their service, but that's, that's a valuable service in this day and age. [chuckles] Certainly for ICE. Wow. [chuckles] Julia, thank you so much- Um... for coming on the podcast. 307 00:53:11.900 --> 00:53:23.910 [chuckles] Did you have something else you wanna say? I'm sorry. [chuckles] No, I was gonna say I'm bullish on Hootsuite. Um, that's, that's how I'd like to conclude. [laughs] Oh. All right. All right. Amazing. 308 00:53:23.910 --> 00:53:28.280 Um, thank you so much. It's a pleasure to talk to you. Listener, we'll see you next week. 309 00:53:30.720 --> 00:53:42.260 [outro music]