WEBVTT 1 00:00:00.120 --> 00:00:04.020 [rock music] Mm, honey. 2 00:00:08.180 --> 00:00:21.720 It tastes just like it costs I mean, I think, I don't know if you know this part of my lore, but before I started Dirt and had to put it on pause, I was working on a book proposal for a book about how storage can basically explain everything in contemporary society. 3 00:00:21.730 --> 00:00:29.680 Yes, you did mention this. Yeah, and so part of it, like there was a whole section about, um, cryptocurrency that's basically a storage-backed currency. 4 00:00:29.740 --> 00:00:40.200 So speaking of cryptocurrency and storage, I'm gonna ask you to store this thread for just a moment because our guest is here. Oh my God. Who are we talking to today? Okay. [laughs] Well, we're talking to Joe Weisenthal. 5 00:00:40.400 --> 00:00:54.580 He is the stalwart on Twitter. He has a Bloomberg podcast called Odd Lots, and he's like one of my fi- favorite financial posters because he is fluent in the currency of like finance Twitter shitposting. Mm-hmm. 6 00:00:54.640 --> 00:01:07.940 But he does... He, his reporting and the conversations that he has, um, you know, are very substantial. Um- So let's, let's have one of these substantial conversations. I mean, a little bit- Oh, yeah. 7 00:01:08.020 --> 00:01:21.360 You and I are so capable of that. [laughs] Let's go. Hi, Joe. There he is. Hi, how are you? What's up? K- where are you? Hey. Uh, I'm just in this little like weird booth here, and I'm like really exhausted. 8 00:01:21.540 --> 00:01:26.570 [laughs] So I'm trying to minimize the lighting. Anyway, how's it going? Feeling great. I'm excited to be here. Thank you so much. You look like you're in a... 9 00:01:26.570 --> 00:01:36.720 You do kinda look like you're in like minimum security prison. [laughs] Yeah, or like I'm in like a, um, like some sort of interrogation room. And geez, I saw this this- Mm-hmm. Well, we are interrogating you, so. 10 00:01:37.040 --> 00:01:51.480 Well- Yeah, that's right. So maybe it's, it's all right. Yeah. Before I hopped on, I saw like a tweet that I was not able to investigate further. Um, Sam Bankman-Fried and Diddy are like in the same living quarters. Oh. 11 00:01:51.540 --> 00:02:00.520 No way. I d- like to choose to believe that that's true regardless of whether [laughs] I just choose to, but- That's kind of like the situation with any Diddy mention that I'm seeing on Twitter right now. 12 00:02:00.560 --> 00:02:08.539 It's kind of like you, you can choose to believe that it's true. I'm gonna put in a Zyn real quickly. Mm-hmm. No problem. Oh, Joe, I actually was gonna tell you. I mean, I tweeted this. 13 00:02:08.640 --> 00:02:18.060 I was sort of saving it to tell you on the podcast, but as we know, I don't have- Yeah... the self-control. I had a dream two or three nights ago about something called Double Zyn. Whoa. 14 00:02:18.440 --> 00:02:24.329 And Double Zyn was just like a regular Zyn pouch, but it's twice as big. But the ridiculousness- That sounds terrible... 15 00:02:24.360 --> 00:02:34.960 of the dream was like when you put it, you know, in the back of your cheek, everyone's walking around with just like this visible lump because the Double Zyn- Yeah... is like too big to kinda tuck up there. Mm-hmm. 16 00:02:35.120 --> 00:02:43.290 So anyway, I was like, "I have to tell Joe about- That's a billion-dollar idea. You should create Double Zyn... Double Zyn. Yeah. It's like, you know, it's like the double stuffed Oreo, but- Mm-hmm. 17 00:02:43.500 --> 00:02:49.540 Well, it's also kinda like, you know, there's the whole thing with mewing where like people are like, you know- Oh, yeah. Yes, yes. Yeah. That- that's kinda like that. Yes. I get a lot... 18 00:02:50.200 --> 00:03:00.150 I'm disturbed because I get a lot of like ads on Instagram for like things like that, like various gums and beef jerkies that are supposed to like make your jaw more masculine. Mm. 19 00:03:00.160 --> 00:03:07.799 It's like, "Oh my God, what am I doing with it?" I mean, I inadvertently do it every time I chew gum. I'm not allowed to chew gum anymore by my own like rule. [laughs] Yeah. 20 00:03:07.820 --> 00:03:17.240 Because I chew it so hard that my jaw is sore for like days. That's great. That's great. Yeah. You're, you're, um- It changes the nature... Like, it changes my face for a couple days. Maybe I should try it. 21 00:03:17.800 --> 00:03:22.960 I w- I was- I think you have enough going on. Well, yeah, you got the beard. Unless you're trying to find out. Yeah. Yeah, you can't even see. Yeah, yeah, you can't even see. 22 00:03:23.020 --> 00:03:27.940 I don't- How long, how long have you had the beard going on? I feel like historically- Uh, since last... No, I didn't for a long time. Uh- Yeah... 23 00:03:27.980 --> 00:03:37.350 last December was the last time I shaved, and then I realized- Conscious decision? Yeah, I've never... Like, it's a little patchy. I don't know if you can tell. I have a c- few like sort of bad spots. Mm-hmm. 24 00:03:37.420 --> 00:03:41.440 But I'd never tried growing one before, and for a long time, you know, I was on TV for a while and stuff. 25 00:03:41.460 --> 00:03:50.520 And then I sort of had this period last December, I was like, "Oh, I have like no like, no public-facing obligations for a while- Yeah... so I'm not gonna shave and just see what happens." And I think it's okay. 26 00:03:50.660 --> 00:03:59.040 I'm a, I- I'm gonna keep it for a while. Keep it going. You look great. The beard is like nature's- Thank you... you. You know what I mean? Yeah, that's right. That's right. [laughs] Yeah. That's right. Yeah. 27 00:03:59.080 --> 00:04:08.800 Um- And not just a beard, but a mustache, for our listeners. Mm-hmm. Yes. He's got the full, the, the full shebang. Yeah. Thank you. Thank you. Um, okay. I did wanna ask though. So I mean- Sure... 28 00:04:09.109 --> 00:04:19.920 y- you used to be just a writer. Yeah. And then you did TV for a while. Yeah. And now I feel like podcasting's kind of your main thing. Yeah. Um, I don't know. I wonder if like each... 29 00:04:20.160 --> 00:04:32.160 There's other factors here as well, like how m- how long you've been in this career, et cetera. Yeah. How, has each like medium changed how you think about your subject matter? That's a really good question. 30 00:04:32.260 --> 00:04:41.240 It probably has. Yo, what the heck, Francis? We didn't even warm him up. Uh, no, that's okay. No, we did. Go on. Uh, it's a really... It's a good question. It probably has. 31 00:04:41.500 --> 00:04:54.840 Um, you know, when I started, I sort of in my mi... I started blogging a little bit, and I did a- Yeah... few odd jobs, paid, here and there starting in probably like- Odd Lots... 2005 or 2006. There you go. 32 00:04:54.940 --> 00:05:02.330 It was always meant to be. But in my mind, I sort of like marked the beginning of my career to when I started at Business Insider in 2008. Mm. 33 00:05:02.330 --> 00:05:09.130 And we were just like- Oh, what a auspicious time to start at Business Insider [laughs]... true... No, it was amazing. It was am- I talk about this all the time, like- Yeah... 34 00:05:09.130 --> 00:05:16.820 'cause, A, it was a gr- incredible time for media and the rise of blogs- Mm-hmm... and all that stuff. And then there was just like so much to talk about. Yeah. And 35 00:05:17.740 --> 00:05:26.420 I was like writing 15 posts a day, like a lot of people were who were like writing for various digital news outlets, which I liked. And like I- Yeah... you know. I would... 36 00:05:27.040 --> 00:05:33.860 You know, if, if the opportunity arise, I don't think it ever will, to sort of write like that again, I wouldn't be against it. It's pretty fun and pretty satisfying, actually. 37 00:05:33.870 --> 00:05:40.440 Oh, well, you have my email address, so- [laughs] Okay. Good to know... anytime. Blogging time. You could call... You could start a new newsletter under Dirt called Pay Dirt. 38 00:05:40.980 --> 00:05:50.900 The problem is- Don't go at me with a good time. [laughs] Well, this is good to know about. No, the problem is, is that like you don't really... The problem is that like tweets are too easy. Mm. You know what I'm saying? 39 00:05:50.960 --> 00:05:59.160 It's like, oh, it's like do I wanna like spend 30 minutes writing this blog post 'cause I could basically get the gist out in 30 seconds- Yeah... in a tweet? 40 00:05:59.410 --> 00:06:07.820 That's probably like what sorta killed my appetite to do that kind of velocity posting, but it's pretty fun. But like, you know, then it was like so much going on. 41 00:06:07.860 --> 00:06:12.108 There was like-The US financial crisis, the Euro crisis, all these different things. 42 00:06:13.208 --> 00:06:24.048 And so like literally, you know, I started getting up at like 4:00 in the morning because I figured it would be a competitive advantage to start looking at what was going on in Europe before the US woke up, bang out a few posts, et cetera. 43 00:06:24.868 --> 00:06:39.808 Um, yeah, uh, that whole... for, for various reasons- Mm-hmm... that vibe ended and the need to do that sort of faded. Um, the podcast- Right. Are any of those reasons having a child? Yes. 44 00:06:39.848 --> 00:06:43.688 [laughs] Well, I would say in re- yes. So I have two now. And in retrospect- Yeah... 45 00:06:43.768 --> 00:06:51.857 absolutely, in the sense that I look back at that time and I think like, there is no way I could have had a family at that point in my life. Yeah. 46 00:06:51.908 --> 00:07:05.568 I was married at the time, but there is no way I could have been a responsible parent with the sort of work style that I had in between 2008 to say roughly... Well, when I joined Bloomberg in 2014. 47 00:07:05.618 --> 00:07:16.628 'Cause it wasn't just that I was working all day, and it really was all day. Um, you know, I was working Saturday and Sunday too. I was working seven days a week and so there was no way. 48 00:07:16.948 --> 00:07:21.928 So I actually- You were addicted to the shindig, as I like to say. I was addicted to the shindig, so addicted. 49 00:07:22.508 --> 00:07:29.288 [laughs] And then like it took a little while when I joined Bloomberg to basically un-addict myself- Mm-hmm... and to, um, 50 00:07:30.408 --> 00:07:41.388 dive into things a little bit deeper and to force myself to slow down because I still had that impulse like, "Oh no, this is how you cover news. You just write every second of every day what's going on." 51 00:07:42.128 --> 00:07:54.018 And it was a good disciplining effect I think in terms of thinking about things a little deeper and wanting to explore things, to sort of be in a place where that wasn't really possible. Mm-hmm. And then I did TV. 52 00:07:54.128 --> 00:08:00.868 I was doing TV for a while at Bloomberg, and I was also doing the podcast for a while. And it was really the contrast. 53 00:08:01.208 --> 00:08:08.508 TV is great and I'm really glad I had that experience, 'cause how many people get to say, "Oh, I co-hosted a TV show on cable"? Mm-hmm. That's fun. 54 00:08:08.628 --> 00:08:13.328 Like, that's a fun thing to do and it's a fun thing to, you know, say at parties that you do that. 55 00:08:14.108 --> 00:08:29.238 But getting to talk to someone for an hour or whatever on a podcast is just so intellectually satisfying in the depth that that's quickly sort of where my... more and more, that's where my excitement went to- Mm-hmm... 56 00:08:29.268 --> 00:08:33.828 just because nothing can really compare to just time spent with that. 57 00:08:33.868 --> 00:08:41.318 And I used to have guests, like we did this thing where I would have a, on the days when an Avlons episode would come out, we would have the guest on TV. Yeah. 58 00:08:41.328 --> 00:08:51.248 And I would sort of realize in that moment, I was like, "Oh, the conversation and the recording the podcast was so much more satisfying." And so that's sort of when I decided I really just wanted to mostly... 59 00:08:51.288 --> 00:08:58.368 and I still write a fair amount, but- Yeah... mostly focus on the podcast. And yeah- For a decade now... I'll probably do this for... For a decade, basically. 60 00:08:58.428 --> 00:09:13.068 And so hopefully, let's see, I'm 44, so two more decades of this and then I'll be done. Yeah. Yeah. Two more decades. Podcasts didn't even exist two decades ago. I know. So I mean, I don't know. 61 00:09:13.108 --> 00:09:18.888 Do you- He's looking in our neural link just teasing the, uh- That's right... the jobs report. [laughs] Mm-hmm. Well, you seem- I'll never... 62 00:09:19.548 --> 00:09:31.588 Yeah, I'll never stop getting up early on Friday, the first Friday of every month for the jobs report. Well, there you go. Um, well, so, okay, the last thing that was sort of, um... I can't remember if... 63 00:09:32.428 --> 00:09:45.868 Well, this must have been after the jobs report. You know, obviously- Yeah... you're teasing the announcement by the Fed. Yeah. Are they going to cut rates? They did by what- Yeah... half a percentage point? Yeah. Yeah. 64 00:09:45.968 --> 00:09:55.288 Okay. So obviously that was, I guess, an event on Twitter, uh- Yeah... finally on Twitter, an opportunity- Believe it or not, it was actually... 65 00:09:55.548 --> 00:10:01.488 Believe it or not, it was also an event like in the real economy- [laughs]... of trillions of dollars. It's like- Oh. No.... beyond just Twitter. 66 00:10:01.608 --> 00:10:09.988 I know, hard to believe, but actually there was all this money at stake too. Yes. But yes. So, okay. To your point, go on, go on. As the rare, uh, not rare, but as in a finance... 67 00:10:10.088 --> 00:10:21.948 an example of finance event that's both- Yeah... memetic and- Yes... for people who are like really insidery and then also like- Yeah... obviously very quickly trickles out to the broader culture and reporting sphere. 68 00:10:21.988 --> 00:10:30.248 Like what, what impact do you think this will have on startup, startup land in the short term- Yeah... if any? 69 00:10:30.748 --> 00:10:39.788 And like, you know, I think most people's like layman's understanding of the interest rate is like, um, they were low and now they're high. That's right. 70 00:10:40.038 --> 00:10:46.568 And, uh, people attribute a lot of dynamics in Silicon Valley to ZRP and I think, you know- Yeah... there's a lot of... 71 00:10:47.378 --> 00:10:58.258 there's a k- sort of contrarian take maybe or maybe it's the mainstream take in your world that, um, ZRP is an oversimplification of why more companies were funded during a certain period. Yeah. 72 00:10:58.348 --> 00:11:08.528 Um, so I guess this is a two-parter. Like what's, what's g- [laughs] what's gonna happen that, that a normal person could actually perceive- Sure... off of this news? 73 00:11:08.588 --> 00:11:16.368 And does the interest rate really do what we think it's going to do by the time it trickles down to like how many sweet greens we have? 74 00:11:16.408 --> 00:11:35.048 [laughs] No, it's a great question for all kinds of reasons, in part because I find that even among reasonably plugged in people in finance, there is a lot of confusion about this exact question, almost to the point where I'm a little disturbed by it. 75 00:11:35.528 --> 00:11:43.368 In... So there's a lot of things going on. So I'll take like a couple... I'll take a minute or something to give you a little bullet point in my thoughts. Please. 76 00:11:43.468 --> 00:11:57.828 So first of all, I would say generally, I think to a significant extent, ZRP as a phenomenon, it's not a terrible shorthand to sort of talk about the economic conditions of the post-great financial crisis era. 77 00:11:58.188 --> 00:12:09.478 But the idea of like the low rates specifically being like the key lever there I do think is if not an o- probably an oversimplification, if not outright being wrong, because there were a lot of things going on. 78 00:12:09.508 --> 00:12:21.268 And to my mind, one of the most important things was not the low cost of capitalWhich was low for some people, but not low for others. 'Cause there's no, like, one price of money, right? 79 00:12:21.468 --> 00:12:35.288 So if you're a rapidly growing company like OpenAI or Uber in its heyday or Airbnb or etcetera, you just have people, like, trying to shove cash in your face for free. And so yeah, capital is cheap for you. 80 00:12:35.948 --> 00:12:47.528 But if you want to build a factory or a new nuclear power plant or something like that, you have to really go out and work and convince people and pay them a lot more money for that. 81 00:12:47.828 --> 00:12:56.888 So there's no such thing I would say as a universally low cost of capital. It's low in this moment for a handful of companies. I think it was low... 82 00:12:57.128 --> 00:13:06.467 One thing that was distinct about the sort of post-great ni- great financial crisis era is there was low cost of labor because we had high unemployment. 83 00:13:06.508 --> 00:13:15.888 And so if you look at a lot of the biggest names from that era, they're companies that in various ways exploited low cost of real resources. 84 00:13:16.068 --> 00:13:26.208 So Uber is obviously the prime example because you build this international taxi fleet on the ba- on the backs of people who otherwise didn't have, like, high-paying jobs. 85 00:13:26.248 --> 00:13:35.788 Hard to imagine that kind of company being launched at a time when unemployment is at four percent. And so I think this is, like, a really important dynamic. There are real physical constraints. 86 00:13:36.188 --> 00:13:43.928 Airbnb is probably another one, you know? Why did people want to open up their how- homes to letting someone stay there? 87 00:13:44.348 --> 00:13:50.668 Well, probably because there were a lot of empty homes or people needing more money for their vacation homes or whatever. 88 00:13:51.588 --> 00:14:00.828 It helped, I guess, on some level that there were a lot of VCs wanting to plow money into them, but there was just this, there was just a lot of spare physical capacity. You could say the same thing about WeWork, right? 89 00:14:01.228 --> 00:14:11.067 A lot of empty offices. You couldn't really build a WeWork at a time when all the offices are full and teeming with new businesses or legacy businesses that are using them. 90 00:14:12.268 --> 00:14:16.128 So I think this is a really important dynamic to understand that what we call ZIRP... 91 00:14:16.598 --> 00:14:30.628 I mean, the reason interest rates were low is because the economy was poor, and the f- Fed was trying to stimulate the economy, but the economy was poor also meant high unemployment. It also meant a lot of empty homes. 92 00:14:30.688 --> 00:14:40.628 It a lot of-- It also meant a lot of vacant office space. So if you think about even, like, the Sweetgreens and stuff of that era, to some extent it was probably about the new rise of, um, 93 00:14:41.668 --> 00:14:56.868 you know, different, you know, millennial tastes and millennials in the workforce and various things like that, but also, you know, cheap online ordering and abundan- uh, abundant labor and all these other things that are sort of like- Well, that's kind of a chicken-and-egg thing, though, too, right? 94 00:14:56.948 --> 00:15:08.478 That's right. 'Cause who-- which came first, the, the millennial-focused startups or millennial tastes? Yeah. That's for you to an- I don't know. That's for you to [laughs] Oh, 'cause I'm a millennial? No. 95 00:15:08.488 --> 00:15:18.568 Yeah, I, I- Wait, are you not? Are you an elder? So my, my definition of millennial, uh, Gen X cutoff is did you have Facebook in college, because I didn't. 96 00:15:19.068 --> 00:15:30.268 And I think that's, like, a really important, like, that's, like, a really defining aspect of, like, that sort of, like, were you an adult when this certain mode of interacting was. We did not at the University of Texas. 97 00:15:30.328 --> 00:15:41.908 I graduated in 2002. We did not have Facebook at all then. So therefore, I do not consider myself a millennial. Hmm. Um, it's a, you know, others can disagree, but I think that's, like, a pretty... 98 00:15:41.968 --> 00:15:50.238 I, I find that to be a useful way to think about it. That's interesting, though. Plus, like, con- I'm, I'm like a, so I'm like a millennial Gen Z cusp. Um, I was born in '94. Oh, yeah, yeah. 99 00:15:51.048 --> 00:15:57.028 And I would, I would translate that to, like, d- like, 'cause I had Facebook- Yeah... when I got to high school. I got it in ninth grade, right? 100 00:15:57.068 --> 00:16:05.348 And so I wonder if then the Gen Z cutoff is, like, did you have Facebook at all? Or, like, [laughs] did you have it in middle school? Well, well, I think that's a good one. The other thing is so... 101 00:16:05.708 --> 00:16:11.788 Wait, so you graduated from high school in 2009, you said? Uh, 2012. I started, I was in ninth grade in 2009. Oh, 2012. Yeah, yeah. 102 00:16:12.088 --> 00:16:20.488 So I mean, I also think probably the rise of, like, mo- mobile social networking is- Yeah... its own distinct phase, so there's probably something around there with it. 103 00:16:20.568 --> 00:16:34.188 Like, the fact that for the g- for Gen Z, the internet is the phone primarily. Probably could be a similar way to think about that cutoff. Yeah. I don't know. But, uh, I think it's a, it's a good question. 104 00:16:34.378 --> 00:16:43.968 Anyway, uh, just g- to finish the thought on interest rates. Hmm. Like, a big thing that happens when the Fed cuts rates is that, like, mortgage rates go down. 105 00:16:44.008 --> 00:16:52.168 Except that mortgage rates have been falling for a year and a half because everyone sort of had known that inflation had peaked in sometime, I guess in middle of 2022. 106 00:16:52.588 --> 00:16:57.648 So as inflation started c- to come down, people started thinking, "Okay, at some point, the Fed is going to cut." 107 00:16:58.228 --> 00:17:08.738 So the, the key thing I would argue is that actually very little happens on the day of the rate cut announcement because everyone's... You know, if you're writing a mortgage- It's priced in... 108 00:17:08.748 --> 00:17:17.628 three weeks ago, you already know that. Yeah, it's priced in. Which actually, Daisy, maybe actually vindicates your point. Maybe it really is just a Twitter thing. 109 00:17:17.708 --> 00:17:31.148 Now that I think about it, I think you're actually right that when it comes to the actual day of the rate cut announcement, maybe the only story is the memes and what people are talking about it, 'cause from a financial market standpoint, everyone knew it was coming. 110 00:17:31.168 --> 00:17:38.148 It was sort of more or less priced in. There was some ambiguity, 25 verse 50, and we can talk about why that's significant what they chose. 111 00:17:38.568 --> 00:17:49.548 But to some extent, it was, like, the event and people talking about it perhaps more than the change in the price of overnight money that actually mattered on that day when it was announced. 112 00:17:49.648 --> 00:18:02.328 Well, but it impacts the economy, very, very, very, very small- Yeah... segment of economy that is emotion-based investments and vibes-based investments. Like, going back to ZIRP, like- Yeah... 113 00:18:02.408 --> 00:18:11.848 money was free for people building technical software- That's right... businesses, which are primarily theoretical until they are not. 114 00:18:12.068 --> 00:18:22.968 And then, but you, like, you're making the point, like, there's all these things in the world that were actual physical conditions of surplus- Yeah... that we have to count. Like, Airbnb was a surplus of housing. 115 00:18:23.028 --> 00:18:32.034 Like-Uh, gig economy is a surplus of labor. Facebook is a surplus of hot people. [laughs] So, um, you know- That's right... 116 00:18:32.034 --> 00:18:37.194 in the same way, like, for anything that is actually tangible, yes, the rate cut was probably- Yeah... 117 00:18:37.204 --> 00:18:45.354 already priced in, but for the small, small number of people who are, like, disproportionately loud, hello, Marc Andreessen- Yeah... 118 00:18:45.404 --> 00:18:58.043 that now gives them the permission to make the emotional investments that they were always going to make, but now they have an alibi for it, which is this specific financial point. So I think the... 119 00:18:58.284 --> 00:19:07.984 Here's a key point that relates to sort of the VCs and the Marc Andreessens of the world, which is real and which sort of does connect back to the very recent, uh, Fed rate decision. 120 00:19:08.364 --> 00:19:12.723 I think what really matters is the stock market because ultimately there... 121 00:19:12.744 --> 00:19:25.244 You know, if you're funding a startup, there are two ways you can monetize that, which is, one, the company could one day go public, or two, sell to a public company, usually with that acquisition in share price. 122 00:19:25.554 --> 00:19:33.004 And so the level of the stock market at, uh, any given time is hugely important. Mm-hmm. And the one reason that the rate cut... 123 00:19:33.364 --> 00:19:41.264 So on the day after the Fed decision was on a Wednesday, the s- uh, tech stocks surged, like, three percent the Thursday afterwards. 124 00:19:42.144 --> 00:19:49.844 And one thing that sort of, like, gets into the economics, so there was this debate going into rate cut day, are they gonna do fifty or are they gonna do twenty-five? 125 00:19:50.364 --> 00:19:58.764 If they were in twenty-five, then that would have signaled that, like, we're gonna... We're being cautious here. We're like- Fifty being half a percentage point, twenty-five- That's right... 126 00:19:58.834 --> 00:20:06.224 being a quarter of a percentage on- That's right... the rate, yeah. And so what fifty symbolizes is, you know, we're very serious about... 127 00:20:07.044 --> 00:20:16.464 Now, whether they're gonna be successful is a separate question, but it's a signal, we're very serious about doing whatever we can to forestall a recession. 128 00:20:16.944 --> 00:20:24.104 And recessions almost always corin- coincide with a decline in the stock market. We're very serious about, uh, cutting off the prospect of recession. 129 00:20:24.164 --> 00:20:35.764 We are no longer so concerned about inflation such that, you know, like, a year ago, they might have said, "You know what? A recession is an okay price to pay for killing inflation." 130 00:20:35.804 --> 00:20:46.024 By going fifty at this most recent meeting, they're basically saying, "We're really not concerned that much about inflation anymore at all. Our main priority is forestalling that recession." 131 00:20:46.344 --> 00:21:11.444 So then you saw that stock mar- the stock market take off, um, and then you see the trickle-down effect from that to the real economy is probably some greater impulse on the part of investors to say, "Okay, this end machine," the stock market, "that determines the degree to which we can monetize our investments, it's up," and therefore that would have, at the margin, some, uh, impulse to, like, "Okay, we're gonna write checks to startups." 132 00:21:11.504 --> 00:21:22.624 So I do think it matters in that respect. Um, another topic I, uh, am not so informed on but I know you are and I would love to, to hear kind of explained is Lina Khan. So this is somebody that, like- Yeah... 133 00:21:22.904 --> 00:21:29.234 I wasn't too aware of until- Yeah... this summer when she kind of came up in this, you know, the conversation about, like, JD Vance was, was- Yeah... 134 00:21:29.234 --> 00:21:35.884 kind of saying that he likes her, and then progressives were saying he likes her. I listened to your episode with her, um- Thank you... from last November. Yeah. 135 00:21:36.104 --> 00:21:43.964 E- explain to me, like, who she is and why there's- Sure... kind of this horseshoe theory ar- like, or, like, horseshoe meeting where, like, people on the far left and people on the far right are both- Sure... 136 00:21:43.984 --> 00:21:52.944 kind of fans. She's the FTC chief. Yeah, she's, she's the FTC chief, which plays this big role in approving or not approving mergers. 137 00:21:53.364 --> 00:22:06.034 Historically speaking, you know, obviously there's a long history of, uh, antitrust in the US, and that's an important aspect of how capitalism works in the US, or anti-monopoly. Historically speaking, I would s- my... 138 00:22:06.504 --> 00:22:08.274 This is not an area that I'm that expertise on- Yeah... 139 00:22:08.284 --> 00:22:19.204 but this is my understanding, which is that historically speaking, the reason we don't like monopolies in this country is because monopolies can raise consumer prices and that's bad. Yeah. 140 00:22:19.353 --> 00:22:26.064 And there's been this sort of change probably picking up over the last decade, but people might... 141 00:22:26.384 --> 00:22:41.304 This gets to a little bit where I'm a little unsure on, but there's been this change in, um, thinking about antitrust where it's like, no, consumer prices are just one bad aspect of monopoly or concentrated power or of oligopoly, et cetera. 142 00:22:41.594 --> 00:22:45.364 And there are other things that we don't like about concentrated corporate power. 143 00:22:45.483 --> 00:22:55.864 So we don't like the fact that if there's only a few dominant players, then maybe they can suppress wages because your, uh, workers, um, have fewer options about who they're gonna g- work for. 144 00:22:56.224 --> 00:23:03.264 Maybe we don't like the fact that really powerful companies could contribute to reasons not to start a company at all. 145 00:23:03.304 --> 00:23:08.714 So it's like if you had a better idea for a search engine, for example, and you might think, "You know what? 146 00:23:08.724 --> 00:23:18.544 It just doesn't matter because, uh, the, the existing search market is monopolistic or not," then maybe you just don't ever start that company in the first place. 147 00:23:18.944 --> 00:23:34.404 So I think, uh, Lina Khan's appointment to run the FTC is essentially this sort of, uh, success story for this different way of, this more expansive way of thinking about antitrust. And if you're a Silicon... 148 00:23:34.504 --> 00:23:49.954 If you're a VC, you might not like it because, as I mentioned a minute ago, one of the ways you monetize your investments is by selling them to large companies, and if the top regulator of mergers and acquisitions in this country is less inclined to approve deals- Figma and Adobe... 149 00:23:49.954 --> 00:24:00.564 then that's a good... It's exactly right. Then you're gonna have a harder time, uh, selling your company or whatever. So I think, like, to your question about the horseshoe, 150 00:24:01.484 --> 00:24:08.514 I mean, look, I think we're sort of- Maybe that's played out by now... in this era... It... I... Yeah, it's a good question, and I genuinely don't know the answer. 151 00:24:08.604 --> 00:24:17.364 Like, how much is just r- rhetoric and how much is just sort of, like, populist posturing? That's for other people to determine. Some people would say, this is just... 152 00:24:17.404 --> 00:24:25.064 You know, we're in a moment where there seems to be a lot of political capital in attacking elites or- Mm-hmm... 153 00:24:25.084 --> 00:24:38.896 you know, power regardless of what perspective you have.I don't know, like, again, how much is sincere, how much, say, in a Trump/Vance administration that line would continue to be pursued. 154 00:24:39.416 --> 00:24:52.216 I genuinely couldn't begin to speculate. But you can see why there are people on different parts of the, uh, spectrum who at least in theory like the idea of a regulator who- Yeah... 155 00:24:52.256 --> 00:25:04.156 is going to make it harder to consolidate corporate power. Well, and progressives, for progressives too, one of the concerns is, like, anti-trust legislation has also been applied to labor unions themselves. 156 00:25:04.216 --> 00:25:12.216 Yeah, that's right. And like there's a point at which we sort of jumped the shark by saying actually be- Yeah... price fixing in labor too. That's right. 157 00:25:12.716 --> 00:25:24.056 And so the way that these laws are applied is also of interest to people who are, you know, quote, "anti-capitalist," where it's like it's not, not- Yeah... 158 00:25:24.096 --> 00:25:28.916 trust theory as it pertains to business, but actually trust theory as it pertains to labor as well. Totally. 159 00:25:28.996 --> 00:25:39.276 And I think, like, in the same way that, uh, being vocally in support of Lina Khan and this new approach to antitrust has some sort of bipartisan valence, criticism does too. 160 00:25:39.356 --> 00:25:47.615 And so you have people who are more on the left side of the dial. It's like, no, we should just get back to focusing on prices and just sup- apply the old test. 161 00:25:48.076 --> 00:25:51.936 And then of course, you have the sort of traditional business, right, et cetera. 162 00:25:51.976 --> 00:26:16.176 And there, it gets even more complicated of course, because you have a lot of these VC types who probably don't, who maybe, I don't know, they're a little bit incoherent perhaps because on the one hand they're upset about their deals falling through, but maybe emotionally they still sort of like the idea of a harder line on power, prominent VC-type tweeters and so forth. 163 00:26:16.676 --> 00:26:26.176 So I don't know where it's going. It'll be interesting to see regardless, like, after this election- Yeah... whether this particular strain of antitrust thinking carries over. 164 00:26:26.256 --> 00:26:35.316 I think that's, like, a pretty big open question, to be honest. Well, it also depends, like, what stage of investments you make, because if you're early- Yeah, yeah... stage, your, um, exit is other VCs. 165 00:26:35.476 --> 00:26:46.016 Your- Yeah, right, right... exit capital is other VCs. And so I feel like if you're the la- if you're the last one holding the bag, then you're concerned about IPO. But- Yeah... 166 00:26:46.156 --> 00:26:54.016 um, I think that that's, I mean, maybe, maybe early stage and late stage can explain some of the political schism as well. Yeah. I'm sure, I'm sure. Even in VC Twitter. 167 00:26:54.156 --> 00:27:05.236 And, um, I see Francis has written down for you, and I'll have to ask him where this comes from, I assume maybe a previous episode, but he wants to ask you about the current state of yuppies- Oh, okay... 168 00:27:05.246 --> 00:27:14.536 and what happens now. Oh, interesting. Well, wait, wait, wait. So here's what. Actually- Oh, wow... I just read this book, um, Triumph of the Yuppies: America- Oh... the '80s, and the Creation of an Unequal Nation. 169 00:27:14.576 --> 00:27:23.376 I think it came out this summer, uh, by this guy, Tom McGrath. Uh, and it's kind of like, I don't know, it's kind of like a light history, a fun read. Yeah. It's like cha- It sounds very David Brooks... 170 00:27:23.436 --> 00:27:32.516 it's, well, it's about, so it's about the '80s- Remember him?... and like Jerry Rubin- Yeah, yeah... and like Jack Welch and shareholder primacy, and it's, it's, you know, corporate hostile takeovers, et cetera. 171 00:27:32.876 --> 00:27:38.066 But I'm more interested in talking about this in a very casual sense. Like, does the yuppie still exist? 172 00:27:38.136 --> 00:27:46.736 Like, kind of the thesis of this book ends up being that, like, well, like, the yuppie doesn't exist because it's like, it's everything now. We're all yuppies. Yeah. Like, the yuppies won, et cetera. 173 00:27:47.236 --> 00:27:58.896 Um, so yeah, I don't know. Do you think, do you think yuppies still exist? Like, what is yuppiedom? Whereas in the '80s it was this very clear thing that was talked about. Yeah. Is it a thing now? I love this curveball. 174 00:27:58.976 --> 00:28:02.286 I was not expecting this, and I kind of, and there's part of me that's like, "I have no idea." Yeah. 175 00:28:02.296 --> 00:28:19.056 But it's a, it's, here's something I do think about, which I don't know if it's gonna directly answer your question, but, you know, one of these things that comes up in the political fights over and over again is you have a lot of, say, like, I would say wealthy, powerful people on the right talking about, like, elites, right? 176 00:28:19.196 --> 00:28:26.376 Mm-hmm. And then there's usually this counter play. It's like, no, you're elite. You're, uh, you're a successful business person, et cetera. 177 00:28:26.916 --> 00:28:40.206 And it's like, no, like, objectively speaking, you who runs this VC firm or you who runs a media, a large media organization headquartered in New York City, by any objective definition you are elite, right? Mm-hmm. 178 00:28:40.216 --> 00:28:48.036 So what are you even talking about talking about, like, elites? But on the other hand, there's something there, like, is what I... Like, there's something there. 179 00:28:48.096 --> 00:29:02.136 There is some class of people that I think is usually sort of liberal-leaning professionals in the world, more on the coasts, et cetera, who are probably largely Democrats, who have a... 180 00:29:02.396 --> 00:29:13.256 And it, I don't know if it's, like, necessarily, many of them probably aren't even well-paid- Mm-hmm... but are in some sense- Yes... sort of like influential elites. And I, I kind of have this theory that, like, 181 00:29:14.436 --> 00:29:29.096 everyone really at heart, and I think you see this with the rise of, like, prominent hedge funders who have got into posting, et cetera, like, money is great, political influence is great, but what people really want is to be taken seriously as a poster. 182 00:29:29.396 --> 00:29:34.796 Like, if you had one of those, like, pyramids, you know, of like the different- Maslow's hierarchy... Maslow's hierarchy. Yeah. [laughs] Yeah, the Maslow's Hierarchy. 183 00:29:34.816 --> 00:29:40.266 Like, at the base of it is desire to be taken seriously for your tweets. Mm-hmm. 184 00:29:40.276 --> 00:29:48.676 And I just sort of think that, like, this is, like, the sort of core thing that we've all discovered, which is it really doesn't matter how rich a- and influential you are. 185 00:29:48.716 --> 00:29:58.416 It doesn't matter, like, what politicians you have on speed dial, et cetera. If no one takes your tweets seriously, you're probably frustrated and annoyed, and think you deserve to have them taken seriously. 186 00:29:58.956 --> 00:30:02.076 And so I don't know if it's, like, about yuppies per se- Yeah... 187 00:30:02.116 --> 00:30:13.156 but this is something I think about, which is that there are people, maybe like the three of us, for whom, like, their posts get taken seriously, and then there are people far richer than us, and people joke about their, you know, these are like, oh- Yeah. 188 00:30:13.396 --> 00:30:20.496 Well, the whole thing you're saying there- And like, yeah... it's arguably, like, why Elon Musk bought Twitter, right? Which we don't need to, like, that's a whole can of worms. But- But it solved his problem, though. 189 00:30:20.536 --> 00:30:32.916 Yeah. Francis- Yes... did this book get into kind of the moment at which, um, financial and political power and cultural power started to diverge? 'Cause I think what we're really getting at here- That's right. 190 00:30:32.996 --> 00:30:36.636 That's right. That's what we're talking about here. Yeah... is this envy. There's this fundamental envy between the left and the right. 191 00:30:36.696 --> 00:30:45.144 Obviously, I'm not-The person, I didn't come up with this, a lot of people have said, like, the right has political power, some cases financial power- Mm-hmm... but they want cultural power. 192 00:30:45.224 --> 00:30:56.444 The left has cultural power, but they want political power. And then we see a parallel playing out- Yeah... especially on X. The media has cultural power, but they want financial power. 193 00:30:56.584 --> 00:31:02.864 Tech has financial power, but they want cultural power. You, there's no way to- The-... shortcut the two. Yeah. 194 00:31:03.524 --> 00:31:11.044 You know what the problem is, you know, people complain, I've, I had this realization sometime last year, which is the thinking like, "Why isn't the mainstream media covering this?" 195 00:31:11.424 --> 00:31:21.464 And then you'll find like, "Oh, no, the mainstream media did cover this." Yeah. Really what they're upset about is that, Daisy, you haven't tweeted about it and acknowledged- Yeah... about it. 196 00:31:21.484 --> 00:31:31.464 Because you're like the sort of, like, you know, someone like you, someone like us, we're like the standard. They're really not upset that like ABC News or CNN didn't cover the story. 197 00:31:31.524 --> 00:31:42.844 They probably did cover the story, or certainly some mainstream outlet actually did cover it. It's more just like, no, they really want you to acknowledge this and like bow down and sort of like- Yeah... 198 00:31:42.884 --> 00:31:52.544 accept, no, this is a thing. And until you talk about the thing that they want you to talk about, I think they'll be unsatisfied. So another thing- So... Oh, sorry. No. 199 00:31:52.774 --> 00:32:01.214 Ano- another thing that's coming back to me as we talk about this with the book that like was a big takeaway for me was like the way I like think of buying stuff or like going to restaurants, where it's like- Yeah... 200 00:32:01.244 --> 00:32:10.904 resi culture and restaurants in, you know, restaurants in New York are booked three weeks out. You can't get a seat. And like this book kind of like suggesting that like that wasn't a thing before the '80s. 201 00:32:10.944 --> 00:32:17.584 Like you would just go to a restaurant to like get a meal. Yeah. You're not, there's no like restaurant hype, and like you're not like buying the, you know, the name brand designer thing. 202 00:32:17.644 --> 00:32:23.524 And I don't know, like I, I was not alive in the '70s- Wait. Well-... so I don't know... I deeply have to say something But- I'm so sorry. Yeah. Say it, say it. 203 00:32:23.564 --> 00:32:36.594 My favorite movie, When Harry Met Sally, one of my favorite scenes- Classic. 'Tis the season... when she, uh, Carrie Fisher's character quotes, um, what's his name, Bruno Kirby's character- Mm-hmm... 204 00:32:36.594 --> 00:32:47.444 to him, the, the line that she quotes is, "Restaurants are to the '80s what theater was to the '60s." Hmm. Oh, that's good. Right? Or something like that. 205 00:32:47.524 --> 00:32:56.064 So even at the time that shift was happening, people were talking about like why are restaurants our culture, like why do we go to restaurants now instead of going to theater? 206 00:32:56.704 --> 00:33:03.844 Well, so what's funny too is- Well, food is really good... what's the name of the guy who wrote Bright Lights, Big City? Jay... Jay McInerney. Jay McInerney, yeah. Line columnist. 207 00:33:03.924 --> 00:33:14.164 I, so I just, I just listened to, he was just on How Long Gone last week, and I listened to that episode. Oh, no, yeah. And he was saying how restaurants now have replaced what nightclubs [laughs] were in the '80s. 208 00:33:14.444 --> 00:33:22.424 So- All right. Well, my father-in-law is gonna kill me. Well, no, he doesn't listen to this. So my father-in-law- Uh-oh... went to Williams with Jay McInerney. Yeah. 209 00:33:22.884 --> 00:33:34.284 Jay McInerney somehow talked himself into a higher level philosophy class as like an undergrad- Mm-hmm... and would pontificate and chain smoke. And so, uh- Another time. Yeah. 210 00:33:34.384 --> 00:33:42.644 So my father-in-law knows this like Jay McInerney. Like I was in class with him. He was not qualified to be there, and all he did was chain smoke, which I guess now is like a cool thing to do. 211 00:33:43.104 --> 00:33:52.294 But I guess like I'm wondering, like is the reason we don't see yuppies now because you have to like choose a lane where you can be a cultural yuppie or you could be a- Hmm... a, a financial yuppie, but you- Mm... 212 00:33:52.314 --> 00:34:03.154 or like I wanna be rich yuppie, but you can't really be both because the behaviors of one- Right, right... are so cringe to the other. Yeah, which is like the death of the bohemian. BOBOs in paradise. 213 00:34:03.184 --> 00:34:12.294 That's a good question. I don't know. Can I just say like I never, I like, I really like food. I like going out to eat. [laughs] I never have a problem. I just, there's a million restaurants in New York City. Yeah. 214 00:34:12.384 --> 00:34:15.554 I just walk into them all the time. So whenever- This is so refreshing, Joe, thank you... 215 00:34:15.584 --> 00:34:23.794 whenever I see there's like discourse about, oh, you can't get into a restaurant, like- Like just go to any other of the 10,000- Just go to literally any other restaurant. Yeah. We live in New York City. 216 00:34:23.854 --> 00:34:32.324 [laughs] We have so many amazing restaurants in New York City. I never have any issues getting amazing food in a restaurant if I want to on any given night. Yeah. 217 00:34:32.364 --> 00:34:42.184 So I have to say, maybe it's because, you know, I've been married since, uh, for 18 years now. Maybe if I were single and dating I would have some other pressure or something like that. 218 00:34:42.724 --> 00:34:51.644 But if people are really worried, trust me, there's plenty of good restaurants out there. It's the, it's the best city in the world. Just- Yeah... walk out your door and you'll find one in two minutes. 219 00:34:51.664 --> 00:35:01.404 Well, okay, so this goes back again, I think again to something, like this, the, the kind of final nail in this yuppie conversation I think is, uh, when we were talking to the industry guys, Mickey and Conrad, a couple weeks ago. 220 00:35:01.414 --> 00:35:07.514 Oh, good. Um- Can we just talk industry for the rest of the show? Yes, it's on the list. [laughs] Okay. Okay, I know it's on the list. I know. So, um- All right, perfect seg, perfect seg... 221 00:35:07.524 --> 00:35:12.184 so they, they were talking about like, maybe I read this in, maybe it was the interview we had or maybe it was another thing I read. 222 00:35:12.204 --> 00:35:19.834 But anyways, they were talking about how like for millennials, uh, you know, there's still this fraught idea of selling out and like not- Yeah... wanting to sell out. 223 00:35:19.844 --> 00:35:26.794 But with Gen Z it's like that's, you don't even think about that because like, you know, you, you monetize yourself, and like you need- Right, right... to get the money. 224 00:35:27.024 --> 00:35:32.924 You ha- like, you know, if you want to get the, the, to buy the stuff, which of course you wanna buy the stuff, you have to get the money, you have to get a good job, et cetera. 225 00:35:33.344 --> 00:35:38.964 And you're like, you know, you're monetizing yourself on Instagram, whatever. Um, I don't know. 226 00:35:39.044 --> 00:35:52.144 I think, I guess the question is like do you agree that like there's this like generational shift towards like being less like shameful about money- Yeah... about wanting to make money? Yeah, I think so. 227 00:35:52.204 --> 00:35:53.494 It certainly feels like it. 228 00:35:53.624 --> 00:36:05.584 And I, you know, when I early, you know, when I was in the high s- in, uh, high school in the early '90s, and there were just endless articles in various zines I would read about punk bands, and they're like, "Oh, you signed with a major label- Yeah... 229 00:36:05.684 --> 00:36:17.424 you've sold out," et cetera. And it really does feel like that, that whole discourse is completely dead. I guess I'm just gonna be really old and say I wish people still had a little bit more shame. Some shame. 230 00:36:17.484 --> 00:36:33.204 And I wish there was still, yeah, a little bit of shame left, and I wish that there were still this idea that if you, if you're making money on something, there's probably a good chance that you've made it bland or you've sort of appealed to the lowest common denominator. 231 00:36:33.324 --> 00:36:43.960 I'd like to go back to sellout discourse. At least turn the dial a little bit. 'Cause it really does feel too, which is that-I know that you... 232 00:36:44.100 --> 00:36:54.310 There's all this his- for the last several years, probably over a decade now, this sort of debate about, like, in the mus- you know, and you h- uh, poptimism in the music and this- Yeah... 233 00:36:54.320 --> 00:37:06.460 idea that, like, is the best music also the most popular? And it u- should be sort of embarrassing- Mm... to be really into the bands or the individual musicians that were at the very top of the list. 234 00:37:06.520 --> 00:37:21.420 And now people are sort of self-consciously cool about the fact that they listen to people who are absolutely gigantic. And I don't know, I, I kinda wish that that went away a little bit. But I, I think that's real. 235 00:37:21.520 --> 00:37:36.480 I think what you described- Yeah... the certain, uh, the certain alignment of monetary success with what's cool or whatever is absolutely true and has changed a lot in my lifetime. What if I wanna buy a Rivian? Go... 236 00:37:36.540 --> 00:37:42.690 I, I, I, uh, you should get it. [laughs] I think they're cool looking. I might have to, I might have to sell out a little bit though. Oh, yeah, that's fine. That's okay. 237 00:37:42.690 --> 00:37:48.480 I think we- I think the poptimism- But for the Rivian... I think the poptimism pendulum has swung back a little bit. Yeah. Maybe I'm just thinking of that myself. 238 00:37:48.540 --> 00:37:56.530 Like, I remember, like, going into college, I was such a, like, you know, "Oh, I o- I only like what I like," and then I'm like, "Oh, it's okay to like pop music," et cetera. Yeah. 239 00:37:56.540 --> 00:38:04.300 And then now I think I'm, like, swinging back to, like, "Oh, no, I need to have, like, harsher opinions- Same... on X cultural product," or, like, it's okay to have those. 240 00:38:04.400 --> 00:38:12.140 I don't need to, like, think everything is, is, is good. You have to kill the Portland inside of you. [laughs] Yeah. Kill the Portland side of me. So I solved this problem for myself. 241 00:38:12.300 --> 00:38:19.930 I threaded this needle in a way that f- feels very satisfying to me- For us... by getting, like, really into country music. And so I like all- Mm... 242 00:38:19.930 --> 00:38:28.960 of the top artists who are from Nashville, all of, like, the pop country artists. But they're just a little bit, you know, tilted to the dial of, like, the absolute mainstream. Yeah. 243 00:38:28.980 --> 00:38:35.950 So I can be like, "Oh, I'm really into, um..." Who's that guy that did, uh- Luke Combs?... Bad Car? Yeah, that's right. Mm-hmm. 244 00:38:35.960 --> 00:38:40.960 So I'm, "Oh, I really love the latest Luke Combs album," which actually I really do, and it's really good. 245 00:38:41.300 --> 00:38:50.740 So I solved this problem because most people probably aren't listening to the entire Luke Combs album, so I can be a little bit cooler than everyone- Yeah... by being into this album that- Well, in New York at least... 246 00:38:50.760 --> 00:38:53.369 That's right. That's right. Yeah. In New York. I'm just talking about in my circle. Yeah, yeah, yeah. 247 00:38:53.380 --> 00:39:04.940 So I can be a little bit cooler than everyone by being, actually knowing the entirety of the Luke Combs album, while also being into someone who is objectively a mega star. And so I recommend that. 248 00:39:05.000 --> 00:39:12.660 Country solves this problem for me. Are we, are we gonna talk about Light Sweet Crude? Yeah. Yes. [laughs] Sure. Um- All right. Let's talk about Harper and Jansen. 249 00:39:13.160 --> 00:39:21.340 We can talk about, we can talk about that too, but- We can talk about... Anyway... uh, since, uh, since we're, since se- selling it out is okay, go to Spotify- Yes... and listen to my country band, Light Sweet Crude. 250 00:39:21.380 --> 00:39:32.020 We have a- I, so- Oh. We have two four-song EPs up there. That's your band. I listened, I listened to both- Yeah... EPs. Thank you. And then I also found your SoundCloud, uh, which is, has a lot of, let's say, B sides. 251 00:39:32.100 --> 00:39:41.050 I don't know. Yeah. Particularly a lot of Christmas songs. What's your deal with all these Christmas songs? Well, all the great Christmas songs I think were written by Jews, if I... True. 252 00:39:41.100 --> 00:39:50.420 Uh, uh, so I feel like I should continue- Facts... that... [laughs] You know what? I'll just say one thing, which is one thing I like about Christmas songs and country music, and there's a lot of crossover. Mm-hmm. 253 00:39:50.520 --> 00:40:00.540 I, one thing that, like, attracts me as someone who is a hobbyist musical artist, I like genres that are very w- constricted. So in country, there's basically only three things you can sing about. 254 00:40:00.580 --> 00:40:10.080 So you can sing about, like, drinking and drugs, heartbreak, and then small towns on a Friday night. And those are basically the only three topics you're allowed to sing about on country. 255 00:40:10.100 --> 00:40:20.909 And you're really only allowed to use three or four chords before sonically it's no longer country anymore. Mm. And so I find it sort of satisfying, like, to work within such a constrained genre- Mm... 256 00:40:20.920 --> 00:40:30.240 where the challenge is how do you fit something new into such a tight box? And therefore I think Christmas songs appeal to me in the same way, where it's like how do you say something new about Christmas. 257 00:40:30.880 --> 00:40:40.020 Anyway, that should- Low carb Christmas... that's the... Yeah, low [laughs]... [laughs] Yeah. Or Merry Christmas. My fa- I, my proudest of, uh, Merry Christmas from the Exit Row, which I think- Mm... 258 00:40:40.040 --> 00:40:48.560 George Strait could do. Anyway- So Connor and Mickey-... I'm not, I'm not shamelessly plugging me... if you're listening and you're putting together the soundtrack for season four of Industry- There you go... 259 00:40:48.600 --> 00:40:54.250 we have a great band for the Christmas episode. [laughs] That's right. There, and there is always a Christmas episode. Always a Christmas episode. Mm-hmm. 260 00:40:54.260 --> 00:41:03.740 So what do you think of this season, Joe, as somebody in the calling? I'm obsessed with it. Yeah. It's so good. I love this show. Like, I, I love the show. I, I... Someone tweeted a- about this. 261 00:41:03.880 --> 00:41:12.350 I didn't actually see the tweet. My wife told me about the tweet and I couldn't find it, but it was something like, "I have no idea what's going on in the, the episodes, but I still like it." Yeah. 262 00:41:12.460 --> 00:41:19.650 And that's kinda how I feel, 'cause it's probably one of the first shows in a while that I don't, that I actually pay attention to. Mm-hmm. 'Cause I'm a bad TV watcher. 263 00:41:19.720 --> 00:41:24.720 I scroll my phone and look at Twitter while I watch TV. But I actually pay attention- Are you sure you're not a millennial? [laughs]... to Industry. 264 00:41:24.970 --> 00:41:34.059 [laughs] I actually pay attention to the TV, but there are still many scenes where I'm like, "What exactly is going on here?" Yeah. I don't really under- But it doesn't really matter. It's the emotional kind. 265 00:41:34.080 --> 00:41:40.239 And I'm not really sure why. It's so good. I'm so livid in it. But you're, I, I think some people don't understand because of the jargon. You obviously understand the jargon. 266 00:41:40.250 --> 00:41:49.280 There- You're just, like, not tracking the characters. There's some that I get there. Right. Yeah. Yeah. I'm not tracking the characters. You know, the thing is, is there are some things that I 267 00:41:50.700 --> 00:41:57.230 don't think just objectively make any sense. Hmm. From a just sort of pure, from the financial standpoint. Lay it out. Lay it out. 268 00:41:57.240 --> 00:42:07.660 Well, I just find it hard to believe that, like, a bank would have this huge wall of debt that was coming due, and that they can't pay it, and that that would be some surprise. 269 00:42:07.920 --> 00:42:15.080 Like, that's just the stuff- This is like 150-year-old bank. Like, yeah. Yeah. Like, and there were presumably lots of analysts who have a deep understanding of the bank's balance sheet. 270 00:42:15.420 --> 00:42:25.440 I just find it to be kind of implausible that that could be something that would be overlooked by... You know what I mean? There are- That only a first-year student finds this out, who's, like, 21. Yeah. 271 00:42:25.520 --> 00:42:36.650 I, so I find things like that implausible. There's another element too where things are talked about, like, events take place in the macro economy that they then trade on. Mm. 272 00:42:36.660 --> 00:42:45.330 Like, I don't know, the Bank of England will raise some rates and then they make some trade on the pound. Like, there's no way this caught anyone by surprise in the market, et cetera. Mm. 273 00:42:45.360 --> 00:42:53.934 So my efficient markets head finds some of these things to be a little bit implausible, but I, that's okay. I, I don't really-... uh, mind it too much. 274 00:42:54.224 --> 00:43:05.634 But there is sort of like- [laughs] There is a little bit of things, like, there's just no way that they weren't all aware of these various moving pieces. So that part I find a little bit sus. But, um- Yeah... 275 00:43:05.634 --> 00:43:12.844 and then there are just various interpersonal things where I'm thinking to myself, "I genuinely don't understand exactly what's happening here between the characters." 276 00:43:12.924 --> 00:43:24.034 But I still love the show, and it's the first show in probably years that I've got, um, genuinely addicted to where I want to, uh- Like watch on a Sunday night. Yeah, watch on a Sunday night. The... 277 00:43:24.124 --> 00:43:35.214 I think my favorite one so far, I guess it was, um, you know, it was the one after Lumi collapsed and they had that hearing, and then they all went back to the club and the energy. Oh, yeah. 278 00:43:35.224 --> 00:43:46.104 And they're all there, and the head of the newspaper there. Because I have to say that that comports so much with my perception of entire how England or the UK works, which is that they all know each other. 279 00:43:46.484 --> 00:43:51.744 You know, my co-host, Tracey Alloway, she went to college at London School of Economics. 280 00:43:52.084 --> 00:44:01.154 My friend who works here at Bloomberg, uh, Sid Verma, I think he went to Oxford, and he went to, um, he went to some prep school in the UK. And everyone knows each other in the UK. Yeah. 281 00:44:01.164 --> 00:44:09.464 They're all like, "Oh, yeah, I went to uni with that person." And you look up and some new minister will be there, like, "Oh, yeah, I went to uni with them." They're all... They all went to uni with each other. 282 00:44:09.494 --> 00:44:18.784 And so my perception of the UK is just run by this little club of political people, finance people, and media who all know each other. I was like, "Oh, I love this episode so much." 283 00:44:18.834 --> 00:44:27.844 [laughs] "Because it confirms all my stereotypes of how I think the UK is basically run." Yeah. So, I don't know, what's that, what, uh, what, what, uh, what, what are your favorite episodes? 284 00:44:27.984 --> 00:44:34.954 I think the whole thing's great. I, I mean, I- We've both already seen it, so. We've, we finished it. We had the experience. Oh, you're seeing the whole thing. Oh, so you've seen- We've seen the whole thing. 285 00:44:34.954 --> 00:44:41.424 We're screeners. So I- Oh, I'm so jealous... I'm still, the finale is my favorite episode. Oh, yeah, don't tell... Oh, yeah. All right. I can't say anything about it. Yeah. But, but I will say the Rishi episode. 286 00:44:41.484 --> 00:44:48.934 The Rishi episode was like- Yeah, I was just gonna... Yeah. But with that, too- No, that was a- Have you seen Good Time? That was a- The movie by the same brothers? Yeah, I love Good Time. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. I... 287 00:44:48.954 --> 00:44:57.364 To me, it's like that. I... It was... I was so stressed out. Yes. I don't know if I ever wanna watch it again, but, like, it was so good. Uh, but I don't, I just don't know if I can subject myself to it again. 288 00:44:57.764 --> 00:45:09.444 No, the Rishi episode was great, it, because it didn't quite end. Like, it ended in this very satisfying, unexpected way. Yeah. Because you think, like, "Okay, this guy is truly at the end of his rope. 289 00:45:09.864 --> 00:45:18.513 He's dug in so deep. There is no way out of this hole, this gambling hole that he's got himself into." So, you know, we're staring down this is a disaster for this character. 290 00:45:18.904 --> 00:45:21.914 And then you realize at the end, no, he just loves the game. Yeah. 291 00:45:22.154 --> 00:45:33.824 And so even though he got beat up, even though he lost all this money, you could just tell at the end that the entire experience of that whole affair was extremely satisfying to him personally, and this is why he's in it. 292 00:45:33.864 --> 00:45:42.064 Because obviously, this sort of pushes a button for him that he really needs in his life. Yeah. Like, this level of stress and drama. 293 00:45:42.444 --> 00:45:48.704 And that, which I think, I suspect is probably a certain character archetype that you would find on many trading floors. 294 00:45:49.024 --> 00:45:59.074 Probably a little less than people think because I think trading is a little less exciting these days than it was before the great financial crisis. There's probably fewer of those Rishi characters at major banks. Mm. 295 00:45:59.074 --> 00:46:08.564 Maybe they'd be at hedge funds these days. But I found that to be a sort of deeply stressful but also satisfying episode. Yeah. And so extremely well done. 296 00:46:09.124 --> 00:46:15.634 Daisy did what, yeah, he was- I don't know if it was Conrad or Mickey who said, like, you get the same amount of dopamine from losing as you do winning. Mm. Yeah. 297 00:46:15.664 --> 00:46:22.914 I don't know if that's technically true scientifically, but it definitely is like, well- There are s- I think- It's just a dopamine hit from playing the game, period. 298 00:46:22.924 --> 00:46:31.204 Well, I played some poker with my friends on Saturday night, and I will say I did l- leave the table with $0, and I... It was a thrill [laughs] to lose all my money. 299 00:46:31.314 --> 00:46:40.354 So this is, I've actually been playing more poker this year. I've gotten back into it. And one reason that I know that I'm not going to be a poker addict, I'm not that good. I'm trying to get better. Yeah. 300 00:46:40.364 --> 00:46:51.013 But I usually lose more than I make. But I know that, uh, I will, I have very little risk of addiction because I find it deeply unsatisfying- satisfying. Like, I'm embarrassed. 301 00:46:51.264 --> 00:46:58.904 When I, I lose a big hand and I wanna slink away. Hm. I have no impulse to go- Oh, yeah, get a little-... double down. Yeah, yeah. Like, I'm like, "Oh, I'm embarrassed that this happened." 302 00:46:59.004 --> 00:47:07.233 [laughs] "Everyone just saw me make a bad call. I don't want that." Whereas I play with people who are just the exact opposite. They lose and they're like, "Oh, I'm buying back in for 1,000." Yeah. 303 00:47:07.233 --> 00:47:14.144 "Or give me $2,000 worth of chips." I, like, the... I don't have that impulse. It makes me not wanna play. I like wouldn't... I don't wanna play at a casino. 304 00:47:14.244 --> 00:47:20.974 I just, I just like to do it to, like, sit with my friends for, like, six hours- Yeah... and, like, shoot the shit, right? Like, I d- I... Like, I've never played in a casino. I don't think I ever will. 305 00:47:21.584 --> 00:47:24.404 I like the casino vibe. I was out in California recently. 306 00:47:24.504 --> 00:47:32.924 And it was probably bad because, like, I'm out there, I was there for work, and there are, in theory, people I could have met and had drinks with, but there was this c- [laughs] There are lots of card rooms in Southern California. 307 00:47:33.004 --> 00:47:41.804 So I'm just like, "Eh, I'll see you guys tomorrow morning. I'm gonna go play cards." [laughs] I like... There's something about the anonymity of it in a casino. Yeah. Everyone's just there. I kinda, I kinda like. 308 00:47:42.644 --> 00:47:49.994 But I- I like it... to your point, there, there is this, um, really good book about poker called Positively Fifth Street. Mm. 309 00:47:50.004 --> 00:47:56.084 But I think it was by this author James McManus, where he talks about his experience at the World Series of Poker and his experience knowing poker players. 310 00:47:56.384 --> 00:48:09.734 And he talks about this friend of his, and I wanna try to keep it PG for the people listening, but who essentially would get into a state of sexual arousal upon losing a lot of money. Hm. Hm. 311 00:48:09.824 --> 00:48:19.414 Um, and that there was some, like, sort of, like, turn o- like, you know, literally turned him on. So I could see the... I under- there are definitely people in the world for whom losing money is- That's very Rishi... 312 00:48:19.414 --> 00:48:27.984 on some level- Yeah... just, yeah- They love the highs... just as, just as satisfying as making a lot of money. Huh. Well- Yeah. [laughs] There you go... I think this season's very dark. 313 00:48:28.124 --> 00:48:36.854 I think the show has obviously produced a lot of interesting memes and has- Mm-hmm. Definitely... 314 00:48:36.854 --> 00:48:49.774 is operating on a level that's actually very humorous and lighthearted, and as the creator said, like, funnier almost than past seasons. Totally. But I think, well, it's a classic comedy and drama, right? That's right. 315 00:48:49.784 --> 00:48:55.024 Okay. You know, the whole thing, it's like, oh, The Bear is a comedy, whatever. It's like-We've... Why are we even having this conversation around The Bear? 316 00:48:55.084 --> 00:49:05.904 Like, let's have this conversation around Industry because- That's right. Um, yeah... Industry... The Bear, The Bear is totally joyless. I was not a fan of this most recent series. How do you finish it, to be honest? 317 00:49:06.094 --> 00:49:11.284 I know. Yeah, every... I finished it, but, like, every episode and every conversation is just so heavy. 318 00:49:11.644 --> 00:49:21.844 And every time they cut a tomato or something, it's, like, this big, long discussion about some trauma that the person had when they cut a tomato 10 years ago. 319 00:49:22.424 --> 00:49:28.924 I w- like, I like, I just wanna see them eat tasty food and cook tasty food because that's fun, that's joyful. Yeah. 320 00:49:29.044 --> 00:49:39.564 And so I do think that, like, Industry is good because it's really stressful and dark, but it's also joyful because they have the fun of it and they have the excitement, where I think The Bear this season totally missed all of it. 321 00:49:39.704 --> 00:49:46.984 Well, totally. And, like, I re-watched Margin Call recently 'cause my husband hadn't seen it. I kept telling him, "You have to see it." I've never seen it. The first time I watched Margin Call I was laughing out loud. 322 00:49:47.004 --> 00:49:48.304 I was like, "Margin Call is a comedy." 323 00:49:48.844 --> 00:50:00.304 And I re-watched it because I had already watched this season of Industry with the episode that just aired, which obviously has a lot of, um- Which is the penultimate episode, right? I think. Penultimate episode. 324 00:50:00.384 --> 00:50:06.804 Has a lot of, to me, references to Margin Call. Oh. And Margin Call being, in my mind, a comedy. 325 00:50:06.964 --> 00:50:16.344 Like, going back and watching it, um, you know, the darkest thing that happens is, like, Kevin Spacey's, like, burying his dog as, like, a metaphor for the American market. You know what I mean? 326 00:50:16.384 --> 00:50:29.584 It's like, okay, whatever. Yeah. It's kind of camp in retrospect. But there's nothing in Margin Call as dark as that Eric Bill moment. Mm. And that is genuinely, like, dark television. 327 00:50:29.624 --> 00:50:37.624 And Conrad and Mickey were like, "We had to..." Like, it was hard on set to film this scene. The first episode they directed also. 328 00:50:37.844 --> 00:50:45.984 Mm-hmm, mm-hmm, that it was- Wait, is it- But it was, it was painful, I know that for sure. Oh, you know what? I actually did not finish. Oh, oh. You know what? I still have about 15 minutes to go from Sunday's episode. 329 00:50:45.994 --> 00:50:53.734 So, oh, Conrad. I know, sorry. Okay. All right, all right. So- Always on the podcast unprepared. What? Sorry, sorry. You're right. You know what? I, uh, I watched it last night and I was like- Okay... 330 00:50:53.914 --> 00:51:01.074 continued missing out, I was very tired. But anyway, I'll f- I, I- Yeah... now I know that there was this very dramatic Eric and Bill. Okay. Well, wait- On this note, this is Tasteland. See you next week. 331 00:51:01.294 --> 00:51:09.313 [laughs] Are we wrapping it up? Sorry, I know. Sorry. No. Sorry, sorry. No. Okay. Wait, actually, I do have, I do have a, I do have at least one more question. Um, okay, so you've tweeted a lot. 332 00:51:09.324 --> 00:51:19.924 You have, like, uh, nearing 500,000 tweets. Yeah. You're famously a Twitter addict. Um- Yes. Don't pocket watch him. I... Look, uh, but, okay, you, you were tweeting today about the devolution of Twitter, how it- Yeah... 333 00:51:19.944 --> 00:51:28.564 predates Elon Musk, et cetera. Um, I was wondering if you're, like, actually considering any other platforms. You, you last posted on Threads in January. Yeah. So I don't think you are. 334 00:51:28.644 --> 00:51:41.024 I think you're kind of just, uh, Rishi, Rishi-moding it and just- You know what? Uh-... mode the game. But...... I opened Bluesky today. Oh. I opened Bluesky today for the first time and... I... This is a tough one. 335 00:51:41.284 --> 00:51:54.904 [laughs] You know, I'm not, I don't think I'm that close. Yeah. But I must be closer. It's just s- well, there's so many... I do st- I, in the last several weeks- Mm... I've started to wonder why I subject myself. 336 00:51:55.184 --> 00:52:08.244 [laughs] I think the turtle-ism, which is just what I feel every time I open Twitter now, because there is just so much sociopathic- Mm-hmm... misanthropic lies, racism of every variety. 337 00:52:08.344 --> 00:52:22.684 And I start to wonder, is there, like, a great reason for me to subject myself? I, I would still bet on myself not really getting hooked on another platform, but I have to admit, like, I kinda think... 338 00:52:23.004 --> 00:52:31.404 I don't know, I kinda think it's taking a little bit of a toll on me- Uh-huh... uh, to just sort of open it every time and just see the sheer amount of slop that has now- Mm... 339 00:52:31.444 --> 00:52:39.304 overtaken that site, and, like, wonder, "Am I really getting anything?" But then every once in a while, like, you think of something really clever and you have a great post and it gets a bunch of retweets. 340 00:52:39.364 --> 00:52:45.704 You're like, "Oh, this is why we're in the game," you know? Yeah. This is, this is why we love posting. And like, that hasn't totally g- Do you have a favorite, a favorite day? 341 00:52:45.824 --> 00:52:50.304 Like, is there, like, a day, like, or, like, an event? Ooh. Probably... And favorite maybe is the wrong word, 'cause oftentimes- Yeah... 342 00:52:50.364 --> 00:53:00.563 the best days on Twitter aren't about good things, they're actually about terrible things. Yeah. I don't know. Maybe not. I, 'cause I was trying to, I, I was trying to think if I have, like- You know, speaking... So, um, 343 00:53:01.884 --> 00:53:15.774 uh, uh, since it actually connects to Industry, uh, late 2022 when, uh, Liz Truss- [laughs]... the prime minister of the UK, unveiled her, uh, emergency budget or whatever, and the pound plunged, et cetera. Mm-hmm. 344 00:53:15.784 --> 00:53:22.864 Like, that was a fun day for me. Because for me- Yeah... there was, there was a lot of meat there. There's, like, let's talk about the mechanics of how currencies work. 345 00:53:23.084 --> 00:53:32.624 Let's talk about the relationships of deficits and rates. Let's talk about the interest of fiscal policy and monetary policy. And then you layer in all the politics and all the memes. 346 00:53:32.924 --> 00:53:40.694 So I think those are, like, th- thick, meaty days. The cabbage. Mm-hmm. Yeah, right, the lettuce. So, like- Okay, but good point... those are, like, the kind of moments that I think, like- Good point... 347 00:53:40.704 --> 00:53:50.444 for me, there's a lot there... nobody was trading on the pound dropping because it was already priced in. Uh, in the show or in real life? In real life. You just said- Liz Truss... in the show it's unrealistic. 348 00:53:50.544 --> 00:53:56.814 Nobody would be trading on- [laughs] No, that was-... a pre-announcement... that part, that part was a truly, a genuinely- Oh... 349 00:53:56.844 --> 00:54:03.384 unlike a typical Bank of England decision, like, that was a tre- a genuinely surprise thing, and it took a while to figure out. 350 00:54:03.424 --> 00:54:20.374 And it was another, another good thing about it, and it sort of hearkens back to what actually r- genuinely made Twitter great in the 2010s, and this is really important, is that what hap- The other thing that happened on that day is there were a handful of people that actually knew what they were talking about on that day. 351 00:54:20.404 --> 00:54:30.924 Mm-hmm. And there were people that understood the liability structure of the UK pension system and could talk about how that interaction and the pension funds got margin called, and could actually explain something. 352 00:54:30.984 --> 00:54:35.164 So, you know, there's a lot of garbage on that site, a lot of memes, some of them are all right. 353 00:54:35.584 --> 00:54:47.304 But also, for years it was an amazing place f- where someone could have expertise who might not be a columnist at a major newspaper or whatever, and they could err- they could teach you something unmediated. 354 00:54:47.564 --> 00:54:55.744 And that is really what made the site great, and to some extent still does. But a lot of those people, I think, have sort of given up, and you just don't get that as often. 355 00:54:56.304 --> 00:55:02.144 Or you get these people that think they know something and do these big 25 threads and, 25-tweet threads, and they have no idea what they're talking about. 356 00:55:02.524 --> 00:55:17.344 But there was sort of a golden age where like, wow, I'm, like, discovering people's insight that I would never have gotten on any other major platform immediately.And that was a good example of it, but there's fewer and fewer far between these days, and that's kinda sad. 357 00:55:17.424 --> 00:55:25.444 I'm calling it now, the next sort of thread expert we're gonna see rise up. We're gonna- about to witness the ascendance of the nuclear energy- [laughs]... poster. Oh, yeah. 358 00:55:26.324 --> 00:55:36.224 There's a new solar energy bro that I'm re- I'm really excited- Oh... about, actually. Yeah, I know. By the way, I, I'm, I'm call- speaking of, I'm getting ahead of this, which is that being, uh, sort of, 359 00:55:37.264 --> 00:55:47.184 a, a nuke bro is becoming a little cringe, actually. I'm gonna, I'm gonna be one step ahead here. Mm. So I think that, like, now, like, if you're just sort of, like, a true, like, pure nuke bro, 360 00:55:48.204 --> 00:56:01.474 that's, like, a little bit 2023. And now, like, the sort of even more sophisticated is like, yes, nukes, but also there is a role for solar, and that that's not just some, like, hippie, liberal dream. Yeah. 361 00:56:01.484 --> 00:56:07.804 So I'm call- I think we're gonna... The, the, uh, the nuke bro, I think, is, like, a little bit dated now. I'm just- Well, so- I, I'm just gonna take the other side here... 362 00:56:07.864 --> 00:56:21.094 so I live close enough to Indian Point that they have to send me literature to my house every year telling me where I can pick up potassium pills- [laughs] Oh, that, I love that... and how to evacuate. Do you have some? 363 00:56:21.094 --> 00:56:31.184 They've sent... No. Come on, man. Wow. Do you need some? I'll just be like, if it's my time, it's my time. [laughs] No, but if they reopen Indian Point, like, do I have to move? I don't know. No, they're, they're safe. 364 00:56:31.304 --> 00:56:38.314 The... You won't have to move. They're safe. We recorded a really good episode, uh- I don't know what to say... that touches on some of this stuff, so it'll be out next week. Oh, and by the way- Yeah... 365 00:56:38.324 --> 00:56:45.674 a little point from last episode where I said somebody should have a podcast on the Big Dig. WGBH did an excellent audio series on their reform. Oh, that sounds good. That sounds good. The Big Dig. 366 00:56:45.744 --> 00:56:55.844 So if that sounds good to you and you wanna learn more about the Big Dig, WGBH if you wanna learn more about why it's okay for me to live across the river from Indian Point, do you... What's the Odd Lots episode called? 367 00:56:56.724 --> 00:57:04.754 It'll be out next week. I can't say the guest because they're new. Oh, okay. I'll find it out. That's enough. But it'll be, it'll be out, uh, this coming Monday. So next week. It's really good. All right. 368 00:57:04.754 --> 00:57:09.064 Let's, let's do it. And we talk about this stuff. It's n- yeah. Let's do it. Um, but it'll be... It's, uh... We touch on a lot of this. 369 00:57:09.124 --> 00:57:18.084 And one thing I learned from our guest is that a, um, if you poll people about approval for nuclear- Mm... uh, it's much, actually... 370 00:57:18.164 --> 00:57:33.044 It's actually much higher in the neighborhoods that there is a nuclear power plant than in places where there isn't a nuclear power plant, which is one reason why if we think there's gonna be a nuclear renaissance in the US, which there might be, 'cause they recently announced the, uh, restarting of a Three Mile Island reactor. 371 00:57:33.424 --> 00:57:46.224 It's probably going to be more restarting of reactors at existing sites than brand-new facilities because the politics is actually fairly good in the place where nuclear already exists. 372 00:57:46.264 --> 00:57:52.393 Well, 'cause they're like, "Oh, my grandpa works there and put four kids through school." That's right. Yeah. Yeah. That's right. They're good jobs, and a lot of them- Yeah... 373 00:57:52.393 --> 00:58:01.173 are unionized workforce, and so they actually enjoy a fair amount of popular support in the areas that they exist. Mm-hmm. I think, uh, let's end it right there. The solar renaissance. We'll plug that. Yeah. 374 00:58:01.204 --> 00:58:09.244 Listen to Odd Lots- Great... on Monday for a great episode about nukes. Um- Thanks, Noah... this has been Tasteland. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you for coming. This has been really fun. Thank you so much for having me. 375 00:58:09.264 --> 00:58:20.524 [upbeat music] It tastes just like it costs. [upbeat music]