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[upbeat music] Mm, honey. It tastes just like it costs. Welcome to Tasteland. I'm Francis Serre. And I'm Daisy Alioto.

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And today we are trying something new. We're doing two shorter conversations with a couple of journalists who had some really interesting pieces published last week.

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Um, first, we'll be talking to Teddy Brown, who wrote a piece for The New York Times on Zyn and the tobacco pouch's masculine political symbolism.

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Uh, and then we will be talking to Emily Sugarman, who, uh, wrote a piece on direct-to-consumer women's health companies, how they're both changing and commodifying emergency contraceptives and birth control.

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So it should be a fun one. But first, a message from our sponsors, which is us. [laughs] A message from ourselves to ourselves.

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Um, so just a reminder that we're raising money for the NW Service organization with our first live recording of Tasteland.

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The episode will be focused on worker-owned media collectives, and our guests will be Samantha Cole from 404 Media, Max Rivlin-Nadler from Hellgate, and Jasper Wang from Defector, and that will be taking place on November sixteenth in New York from seven to nine at Twenty-Five Broadway.

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It's the NW office. It's behind the Wall Street Bull. You can't miss it, and we'll put more info and the ticket link in the show notes. It'll be great. Uh, you better come. You should definitely come. I'll be there.

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Daisy will be there. Everyone will be there. We have to be there. Yeah, we'll have to be there. Uh- This is-... Teddy is here, so let's, let's chat. Teddy, also here. Hello. Thank you. Thank you for coming on.

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Thanks for having me. Is anyone packing a Zyn in the upper decky right now? No. Or you already said that. I've never Zyned. So you know, let, let he without Zyn pack the first upper decky. Um, I've never Zyned.

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Ted says- So okay, well- Tom, please keep that in for the record. [laughs] Mm-hmm. I guess to, to start, um,

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Teddy, you had this piece in The New York Times published on Halloween titled, "What's That In Your Mouth, Bro?" Which is about [laughs] I don't- Yeah. Did you come up with that headline, Teddy?

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I know you [laughs] imagine the amount of headlines we went through. We were... So, um, under the influence was used by the American Lung Association- Mm-hmm...

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in like a, an internal presentation, so we weren't allowed to use that for the headline. Mm-hmm. And I have no idea who wrote that headline, but I saw it, and I was like, "That is-- [laughs]

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that wasn't the one I was thinking, but I'm glad we went with it." Mm-hmm. How did you end up with this piece? Like, i- is this something that you were given, or did you pitch it? How did it come to be? Yeah.

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Just to go through, like, the, uh, the sort of draconian process of, like, how things work with the Times sometimes is that I pitched this story probably six months ago. Um, and we had talked about it a little bit.

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My editor, Marie Solis, who's just, like, the best, she's such a, she has such a sharp eye for this stuff. And we talked a little bit about it. Wasn't the right time, wasn't the right time.

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And then eventually, uh, once we got close to the election, they were like, "Okay, we need to run this, but we wanna focus it on more of, like, the masc- like, online masculinity aspect of it." Mm-hmm.

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Um, which is a great topic.

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I mean, I think that some of the folks I talked to for the piece, and who I'm really grateful to, uh, we talked a lot about, like, the, um, the waning importance of symbols for this kind of stuff.

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And so, like, the political attachments to something like Zyn are relatively fleeting, but when you catch it, you have to hang on really tight and, like, ride the wave.

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And so, um, it was, it was very interesting to talk about that with folks. You mean if you're somebody... Like, if you're Philip Morris, do you wanna catch the wave?

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Both Philip Morris and, like, podcasters like the Nelk Boys- Mm-hmm... like Tucker Carlson. Like, I don't actually think Tucker Carlson gives a shit about Zyn, but I know that he wants the audience of the Nelk Boys.

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Well, he's being attacked by demons in his own bed, so I think he has bigger issues to worry about. [laughs] No, but you're saying- Like, what if we, what if the demons just wanted a Zyn? A Zyn.

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I'm trying to think of the profile pic- They should make Zyn commercials that are like, "You're not you when you're hungry."

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[laughs] Who's the old head of Abercrombie who, like, actually thought he was being haunted by a dybbuk? Like, that was it, the, the profile pic. Is this the guy who was, like, arrested on sexual assault charges?

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Not that. He was the, the original OG guy- Okay... from, like, The Limited. That's a great profile. Like, he actually- Do you guys think the Babadook Zyns? [laughs] That'd be six milligrams, your man.

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He keeps so many Zyns in that top hat, let me tell you. Well, wait. I, I wanna, I wanna talk more about the Tucker Carl- Tucker Carlson bit for a second there.

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So I remember seeing the, like, like reading that Zynternet piece that Max Read wrote however, however many months ago that was, and I don't know, like, um, what you're saying is, like, it's just a thing that, like, they...

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You know, somebody like Tucker Carlson sees these, like, young men rallying around, and it's like, "I'm gonna plant my flag in that," and like, but that's only- And he's like, "I want that, I want that audience." Yeah.

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I think that's really what it comes down to for...

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You know, and Max was such a- an integral part of both, like, the in- the, uh, the, uh, inspiration for this piece in the first place and also, like, the actual writing and sort of the critical analysis of it. Mm-hmm.

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And he, he was like, "Two things." It's like, "It doesn't matter if you actually use it or not. It's about being attached to the symbol of it." Mm-hmm.

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Um, being attached to, like, sort of the, the wider sort of implications of what that means for, like, being fratty or, like, hard partying, but also, like, relatively healthy and, like, all these sort of right-wing symbols that are really, really frayed.

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Like, they're not, they're not really, like... There's no single thing people attach to anymore. It's like a bunch of different things all over the place. Um, and then the other- Micro wellness cultures.

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It's pl- it's, like, bizarre.

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The fact that, like, reactionary politics is now, like, Andrew Huberman, Andrew Rogan trying to biohack instead of, like, smoking as many Marlboro Reds as possible is, like, very funny to me.

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[laughs] Are, are, are cigarettes liberal? It feels like cig- cigarettes, like, are, like, lib now, which I think- Yeah... is very, very funny. Mm-hmm.

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Um, but anyways, and Max was just a, such an important person reporting this out. So it was just like... [sighs] I'm trying to think of the other thing you said about this.

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But, um, I think for someone like Tucker, it's like he isn't actually a political commentator anymore. He's, like, a podcaster. Mm-hmm.

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And you have to build an audience and keep an audience, and, like, he wants the Nelk Boys audience, so he's gonna do stuff that associates him with these other people that he can access in the first place because-As like, as much as Tucker Carlson wants to be like, "Oh, I'm like the, I'm like a masculine guy," like, he's like a liberal urban elite from DC- Yeah...

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who was like a, a shitty CIA agent for a little while. [laughs] What about, okay, what about like his brand? So he has, uh, Alp. Alp. Right? Yeah. Is his brand coming out, and then there's Sesh.

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So I mean, like I feel like, you know, Zyn is like the Kleenex of, of nicotine pouches. Yes. In that, you know, it's... You don't say, "Let me get a nicotine pouch," you say, "Let me get a Zyn." Um, I don't know.

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Do you think like wi- with other brand... Maybe it's too early to say, but like with a, a Sesh or an Alp like does that matter, or is that just a way of like him consolidating some of his Zyn fandom- It's a gold rush...

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which what's his name gonna do? That's all it is for people. Yeah. So PMI was like first, the first to the, to the marketplace, like they're first movers. They have a ton of money obviously.

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They're always gonna like win a lot, a ton of shelf space, distribution, production, all like this kind of stuff.

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But in the same way that a lot of vapes just winced the market and was like, "We'll let the FDA chase us," uh, like all, every product on the market right now does not actually have FDA approval to be out there.

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So like it's all provisional, even Zyn. They're like, they're gonna get their, their license to market, but they're still in like provisional zone for everything right now. So like they're not officially allowed.

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And for the smaller brands, aren't they sort of counting on Philip Morris to do the court battle? Yeah. And then they're just gonna like ride, like little barnacles?

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[laughs] They'll get first mover, and then like you just do the exact same thing. You put the exact same warnings on your label and your can as Zyn does.

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And for, for the Sesh guy, um, Max, who was, it was a really good interview and a, a smart guy, he's like, "The first movers have advantage here because we're trying to get to the regulatory rooms.

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So like we wanna be in the room when people are talking about how to regulate these things, sort of have influence over it." So it's like a little bit of regulatory capture.

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For guys like Tucker Carlson, it's a little bit of a gold rush where he's like, "I wanna be in this marketplace 'cause I know it's gonna be big, and if I can make the fucking like reactionary Zyn, like might as well try and do it."

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Mm-hmm. Mm. Wh- what do you think Zyn means as like a class signifier? Like obviously you talk a lot about more as like a masculinity signifier, um, again- Is it more expensive than cigarettes? Sorry, ignorant question.

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I just bought the Zyn this weekend because we went to a Bills game. [laughs] And I can't remember how much it cost. It was cheaper than cigarettes. [laughs] Okay. It's, it's 10 in a pa- 10 in a pack? I don't know.

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I've never Zyn. 14 a pack. Yeah, 14, okay. Yeah. Um, the class signifier thing is really interesting. When I went into this, I had a lot of as... I, I have a lot of like outer social friend, like who've, who's in...

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Not, not a lot of people like in my direct circle, but like a lot of folks at like- Yeah... one degree removed. And so I had this very specific association with who was doing it.

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And then I talked to a lot of people, and there, there's no rhyme or reason to like why people Zyn and why they didn't. And like even the masculinity signi- signifiers, we put in the piece, like

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it's less about doing Zyn than it is about being associated with like this, the sort of second tier, like the second level meaning of Zyn that like- Mm...

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actually have the, like the masculine and political associations with it. So like the guy, I talked to a few veterans who are like firefighters or cops now, and like just middle-class guys doing their thing.

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Talked to podcasters in Brooklyn like doing Zyn. Like it's all over the place, it really is. But it is almost exclusively men, which is- Yeah... all like the one like sort of, you know, uh, uh cohesive thing there.

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I, uh, you interviewed a guy named Zach or Jack Spitler- Yes... which I felt was really on the nose- [laughs]... and like had to be included.

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Um, I'd, I'd love to hear a little bit more about like, I don't know, just the, the random John Q. Publics you were talking to. Yeah.

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So, um, Jack Spitler was introduced to me by another journalist named Charles McFarland.

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Charli- Charles, wonderful journalist, um, he wrote a piece, he wrote the piece about the hat factory in the Midwest that's doing like both the Trump, um, uh- Mm... advance hats and the Harris-Walz hats. Great guy.

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Um, he introduced me to Jack, who was a sergeant in the Marines, and that was just like a like perfect guy to talk to because he was like, he did snus when he was in Norway, and then- Mm...

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switched to doing Zyn when he got back here. It was a ton of, um, just like internet reporting, like going to Reddit and talking to people, which was always, is always a funny exercise.

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It was a lot of like- Yeah, 'cause if they turn on you, then you get- It's-... kicked off... talking to people on Reddit, not my favorite thing in the world, but here we are. It's like how we're reporting these out.

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Um, and then it was a lot of just going out and looking, like l- Were you on like a Zyn subreddit? Is it just called Zyn? Yes. There's like...

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I would l- you can look up like Zyn, and it'll just pop a bunch of subreddits of people talking about it. Teddy, do you know about Double Zyn? No. [laughs] We talked- [laughs] Is that when you just do two?

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We talked about this on the Joe Weisenthal podcast. No, I- 'Cause he popped a Zyn as soon as you stepped- I had-... inside before we get started. That's incredible. Right.

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Well, I had a dream that there was something called Double Zyn, which was kind of like a double stuffed Oreo, and it was like the pouch was twice as big, but it was like really visible in your face. Ooh.

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So it would give you a lump. 'Cause when you said it's more men, I really think that's like, there's something about putting something, like it's a little bit like unfeminine, right? Absolutely. Yeah.

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Because it's not really visible, but it does sort of change, like it does make your face look different, I think. Mm. I don't know. And there is this association I, I heard from a couple of marketing people.

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They're like women associate it with dip, and the- Yeah... like the, the uptake for women on s- like lo- on chew tobacco is like basically nobody. And so there's this, that like, that rough association between the two.

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But if you look in Scandinavia, it's really popular, like almost 50/50 gender-wise. Mm. Mm. Which is a- also pretty interesting, and that's just 'cause snus has been around a long, a lot longer.

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Um, I talked to a couple s- um, Swedish friends who were like, actually, the tobacco free smokeless pouches are much more feminine associated in Sweden than they are- Oh...

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with snus 'cause they don't have tobacco in them. What do they have in them? What's the benefit? Uh, just nicotine salts, which- Okay...

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anytime you put salts in something, it's like it just gives you the, like the image of like, "Oh, wow, this is just like poison that you're putting in your mouth."

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[laughs] Snu sounds like something like a Moomin would say. [laughs] Like more s- like a Moomin- And you imagine a Swedish-... would just be like, "More snu, please." Isn't, isn't that what... Don't they snort snus?

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That's snuff, which is- Snuff, okay... its own whole thing. Um, snus, if you hear, hear a Swedish person say snus, it does sound like a cartoon character saying it too, so. [laughs]I think, um- Nice...

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one thing we were talking about a second ago, like, it's not necessarily just about doing it, but about being associated with it. Yeah. I'm thinking of, like, all this, like, brain rot slang.

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Like, I mean, Z- Zinternet, you know, upper deckies, but then I'm thinking about, like, rizzler, gyatt. Like, all these things- [laughs]... where, like, I'll see...

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Like, I'll be scrolling my Instagram reels, and there'll be like- Skibidi Toilet... some song. Yeah, it's like these, like, Skibidi Ohio songs.

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And it, like, it feels very that, where it's just like- They're like sea shanties for people who- [laughs]... never learned how to read. That's good. Yeah.

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[laughs] Huh?

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Comments off, or nobody commented? Comments off. No, no, comments off. Yeah. Wow, what a privilege. [laughs] Would've been nice if that was extended to me, but that's fine. Yeah. Um,

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did, did it make it back to the subreddit? Did it come full circle? It d- hasn't really done that much. There were... They did put some promo behind it. Like, I think there was a push alert on Sunday for it. Mm.

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And it came out, and it was, um, the front page of Sunday Styles in Sunday, which was, like, a huge milestone for me. Huge. I was really happy about that. Yeah, that's really nice. I was really, really happy about that.

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Um, so the response has been, like, a lot of folks glad that The Times finally did something on it. Because I think, like, The Post had run something really big, like, six months ago.

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I know, I think Rebecca Jennings at Fox did something, like, almost a year ago now. So like, it was very much, like, a Times is on it thing. But I w- I think everyone was also happy that we took- We did...

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Wait, when does, like, the Zyn waves start? I can't even rem- Is it, like, two years ago, three years ago? It's, like, 2019-ish- Mm...

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is when they started, like, the na- Like, so they released it in 2014, and then they did, like, a huge natural, n- national distribution push in 2019. Mm-hmm. Yeah. And listen, they're making a ton of fucking money.

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Yeah. PMI is like, "We found our next thing. We found smoking again. Like, this is gonna be great." Well, I saw something, um, 'cause I know that there's, like, these Zyn reward programs.

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Where it's like if you get all the... Uh, it's like box tops for cereal when you're a child or whatever. But, um- Does the rizzler come to your house? The, no.

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[laughs] But you can get, you can get- The rizzler will come to your office if you guys collect the most box tops. Come on, the rizzler is a 10-year-old, the rizzler's a 10-year-old child.

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You get, you get- The rizzler does not sit... cameo credit for doing, for, uh, sending Zyn into people. [laughs] But, no, but I saw something that was, like, a, my boyfriend got a barbecue from doing all his Zyns. Yeah.

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They just reinvented, like, um- Oh, yeah... like, they used to do this with cigarettes too, like, decades ago. It was cool. My u- uh, like, my entire mom, my a- all my uncles and aunts are all Japanese.

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They all smoked from, like- Yeah... since they were 12, basically. And so their sh- like, the Marlboro shit they had was killer. It was like [laughs] it was- I have, like, a Marlboro headley... pretty solid for real.

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Yeah. Right. It's pretty cool. Yeah. Um, yeah, the Zyn rewards thing, that has been, like, one of the funny... That was actually one of the counterpoints on the, um, the gender association stuff.

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I was talking to Casey Lewis, and she- Mm... was like, "Yeah, there's a bunch of- Mm... TikToks of, like, girlfriends collecting their boyfriend's Zyn cans, and like- Yeah... buying shit with them.

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And I thought it was just, like, a very funny little internet sub thing. Mm-hmm. But yeah, it was really interesting. Yeah, like, women will do the actual coupon c- Right. [laughs]... cutting, basically.

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Will, will take off the... [laughs] Yeah. Classic. I have a couple times, but- Mm-hmm. I never have. I never smoked it. There's, I was, I got, like, pretty... I mistimed it with, like, my coffee a couple times- Oof...

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and got, like, pretty nauseous and was like, "Mm." Yeah. Not my fave. We, I was in a Bill- I was up in Buffalo just because we were gonna go to a Bills game with some friends.

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And we, uh, like, I was like, after the first five minutes, I'm like, "This is awful." I'm like, "Oh, wait, now I understand why- Oh... people like this so much."

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'Cause you probably can't, like, smoke in the stadium either- Yeah... but you can Zyn. You can pop that Zyn in right there, so yeah. Did you have a garbage plate while you were in Buffalo? No, a lot of wings. Um- Okay.

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Yeah, that's- And yeah, it was like, it was- That's a classic. It was good. Buffalo was fun. Yeah. Sick. Um, I guess, uh, uh, do, would, would you consider this an election piece?

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'Cause the way, the way you said you, you, you know, six months ago you started talking about it, and then they wanted to do it now. Like, obviously the timing seems pretty apt. For doing, uh...

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Look, I'm a freelancer, so like doing a piece- Yeah... like, doing a 2,000-word piece that's a cover piece in, like, I think we did it in two weeks. Yeah.

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Like, I got the green light, and my editor was like, "We need this before the election." And I think I got the green light, like, October 15th or something. Mm.

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And so, yeah, I think we wanted to run it as, like, a piece about this new wave of onli- Look, I, I... All jokes aside, I do actually think that the, um,

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this chronically online masculinity cris- like, masculinity crisis, which of course sounds like a, a ridiculous term to s- to say something about.

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But, like, I do actually think that's a really important thing for people to look at more, with more critical eyes. 'Cause I think there's a lot of guys...

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And again, it's, like, giving it the sense that these, like, 23-year-old dudes, like, which, who have all this envy in the world. But, like, also,

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they're, like, as Jeffrey Sonnenfeld said, like, they are kinda, like, they're not getting anything. Like, they're get- they're getting fucked. Like, they're- Yeah...

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in the, in the way that both society's doing to them, and they're doing to themselves.

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But, like, they are, like, there's a total failure to launch for so many of these guys, and they're so susceptible to, like, s- really gnarly shit out there.

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And I know, like, younger cousins, and like, you know, nephews and shit, and, like, it is, like, not a... Your brain is just absorbing all this, like, pretty, you know, nasty stuff from a lot of these guys.

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Well, as you were talking about first mover, I was thinking about... I don't, I, admittedly, I didn't read Max's internet piece. Mm. But I was wondering if he talks about gambling and sports gambling- Yes...

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being extended to, like, so many aspects of culture. 'Cause I think Polymarket is sort of the first mover in that situation. Mm.

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Good call.Like, if you have a really big audience, I don't know, maybe MrBeast is a bad example. Yeah. Like, you could see sub-markets being launched by influencers in the same way and- Absolutely...

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but Polymarket's going to take the brunt of the regulatory whatever. Mm-hmm. They're like the goose flying at the front of the V, right? Yeah.

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And they get the, the sort of the benefit of regulatory capture where they get to influence exactly what the policies are- Mm-hmm... which can keep other people out. But I, I think that's a- Totally...

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very good point in that it's like it is... Sports gambling is, like, a perfect analog for this stuff because it's something you can do by yourself and it's so tech- It's like frictionless automated vice. Ex- exactly.

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It is ju- it is like Zyn in sports gambling, Zyn in, like, FanDuel and DraftKings and shit is, like, this perfect one-two punch of, like, I don't need to interact with anybody. Yeah. This is just purely utilitarian.

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I can press this button and put $20 down on Derrick Henry scoring a touchdown. I can pop the six milligrams in. I don't have to go anywhere or talk to anybody.

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[laughs] Fictionless is my least favorite type of vice, but I get it. [laughs] Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, that's why I like smoking. I don't like vaping really. And listen, no one likes vaping. There's no ritual, right? No.

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There's no ritual. Yeah. Yeah. Um, last, I have one more question from me. Uh, were there any, like, threads or points that didn't make it into the final piece that you wish had?

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Um, you know, I, um, Max Read is one of my favorite writers and thinkers, and we actually- Yeah...

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I leaned on him a little m- bit more in the first draft and, like, 'cause I think his analysis for that piece was so spot on. Like- Yeah...

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Max does something that I don't do very well, which is, like, think in terms of, like, systems of technology and, like, how, like, larger threads are going through the world. Mm-hmm.

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Um, and so I really appreciate that about, about him, and I wanted to include a little bit more of this internet piece in it, 'cause I think this is really, like, a...

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It echoes a lot of what he was talking about, and, like, I wanted to pay a little more homa- homage to him. But we also wanted to make sure that we were getting a lot of different voices in.

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So, like, someone like Sam Adler-Bell, um, was great to also include in this because I think it was important to think about this as, like, how we're thinking about political symbols in 2024, and how shit shows up on Instagram, and how it shows up on TikTok, and, like, what's that do- what is that doing to how people think.

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So, um, I think we did a, a, you know... Getting 2,000 words in the Times is sort of a few and, fewer and far between exercise now. Everything is trending towards, you know, smaller and smaller. Yeah.

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So I was really happy we got, like, to the oxygen to, to actually give this piece, you know, what, what it needed to be. Well, don't.

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Do what I do, did, which is I took my little $2 a word and I bought myself a nice watch, and then I lost it. [laughs] I was thinking about doing that. [laughs] Buying a nice watch? Well, just don't do the losing part.

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Just doing the losing part. I'm gonna do everything else. [laughs] Look, Teddy, if you wanna go to Grand Seiko, I will come with you as your watch whisperer. Ah. We can do a little Grand Seiko field trip.

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That sounds nice. I was thinking about getting a suit too this year. But I don't know, I don't wear suits anymore. This is like- Gotta go to Drake's. True. Get the La Chimera linen. Love it. I'm telling you. Listen.

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[laughs] This is fun, guys. Thank you so much for having me on. Yeah. Thank you for coming on. Yeah. Thanks for coming on short notice. [laughs] Of course. Yeah, yeah, anytime. It tastes just like it costs.

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Uh, well, I thought, I thought that was really fun. Um, I'm still not inspired to go do Zyns, but I'm also, like... I don't know.

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I, uh, one thing that I thought was interesting about the piece is, like, all the photos are of, like, just dudes around New York City, like, downtown bars- Mm-hmm...

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um, doing Zyn, which is an interesting choice I think from the photo editors because, I don't know, I, I, I would've liked to see more, like, the nation's Zyns, Zynternet, like, you know, somebody doing Zyn- Farmers...

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in Iowa. Yeah. Yeah. Somebody canvassing with a Zyn in. Mm. Canvazin. [laughs] Yeah. Jesus Christ. Um, yeah. No, I don't know. I, I feel like I, I'm really curious if Zyns are gonna be such this short-lived thing.

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Like, something that Teddy was talking about is how it's just like this, it's this gold rush, and, like, this gold rush of, like, putting a culture war flag on it- Mm-hmm... because it's so new. Mm-hmm.

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Whereas, like, I mean, those tobacco vapes, I can't even remember. Like, 10 years ago, I feel like when Juul came out or whatever and it was such a thing.

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Like, I- you have to imagine with Zyn it's gonna be, like, in 5 to 10 years, it's just a normal, like, tobacco product at the bodega that, like, isn't polarized in any way. And- Yeah.

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I mean, I think these trends can create new tobacco consumers if they catch people who are, like, aging into- Yeah... getting access to it because they're in high school and- Well, proven with vapes, right?

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Yeah, God forbid, middle school. Yeah. Yeah, my husband Juuls more than he ever smoked cigarettes. Yeah. And so it creates new users, but I think there's, like, a portion of people who are just gonna be new users.

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There's a portion of people who are just gonna, like, try it. It's a trend. Obviously, it's stickier than other trends 'cause it's, there's an addictive substance in it. Mm-hmm.

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But I just wonder if, like, the number of, like, true nicotine addicts- Less sticky than a cigarette though... is l- sort of like energy. Like, it's kind of stable, but it's transferred from format to format. Yeah.

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And that's probably just gonna still trend down anyway if you look at cigarette use and Juul use in the statistics in the article. Mm-hmm.

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Um, and I think the little, like, bumps up over time are those, like, social trends- But it continues to go down over time... followers. Yeah, yeah. Yeah.

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The trend will continue to go down because the trend is really capturing, like, the number of people who are habitual nicotine users. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Uh, well, Emily is here, so- All right. Let's let her in...

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let's talk to her. Round two. Hello. Hello. Hello. Okay, let's get into it. So- Okay... you had a piece published, I think, last Wednesday, uh, in The Guardian- Yes...

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titled Vaginas in Times Square: Birth Control Has Been Rebranded. Yeah, was that your title, Emily? No, I do not come up with the headlines. Mm, alas. Public service announcement. We do not come up with the headlines.

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But wait, I wanna, I wanna finish the thing. So birth control has been rebranded- Yes... but are women the ones benefiting? Um- Yes... so what's the answer? Did you answer that question? No. No.

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[laughs] Sorry, no I don't. I don't. That's, that's the thing about most of my articles is I'm like, "Here's a question- Yeah...

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and here are some convincing arguments on either side, and you figure it out, 'cause I sure don't know."Well, I think...

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Well, the, my takeaway was, like, so, so yeah, that question's obviously you didn't, like, pose that question exactly, but it's about, like- Right... direct to consumer women's health brands flourishing post Roe v. Wade.

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Um- Mm... I don't know. Talking to these people that you spoke to, some of, like, the, the heads, people who work for these new companies, if R- Roe hadn't fallen, do you think this market would look like it does now?

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I think that it would... We would still have a proliferation of these brands. I think, like, even starting back in, like, 2017, 2018, around Me Too, that's when people- Mm... started thinking, like, "Oh, we...

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Women are interesting," right? "Women are a story.

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Women's healthcare is something that we should be looking at," because there's, there was all this attention on it, and then also we had the pandemic, which shifted a lot of focus to telehealth. Mm-hmm.

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And so I think, like, even before... And there were a lot of attacks on birth control, abortion, even before Roe fell. Mm. So I think we were heading in this direction.

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You just saw this, like, stratospheric takeoff of demand and also investor interest in this, like, discrete moment after Roe fell. Totally.

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I mean, people saw the success of companies like Glossier, and they applied the same playbook to women's health. Yes.

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And we kinda got into this a little bit on our episode with Jo Weisenthal, where we talked about, like, the startup boom that happened in, like, w- the aughts, basically. And- Your Gin Lane br- branded startups- Yeah...

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like Warby Parker, et cetera... and, like, how much did, how much did- Hims... interest rates, like low interest rates factor into this, where, like, investors are just- Mm... throwing money at things.

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And I think what my takeaway from this article was, um, a lot of what's happening, like, obviously if your total addressable market is, like, 50% of the population, or you could argue it's 50% of the population, although you're kind of- Mm-hmm...

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coming to an age, a relevant age segment within that, like, theoretically that's a strong enough argument to, for the market whether Roe is in place or not, as you were saying. Mm-hmm. But I think

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the thing that I took away is this is very downstream of the science or innovation, and it's taking something that already exists, the science that already exists, like Plan B, and just coming up with a fancy package for it or maybe a little bit of an ease of distribution- Mm-hmm...

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um, that didn't exist before. But to me, like, what really helps women is, like, very, very upstream, which is, like, money going into actual science, money going into, like, new solutions for women's health.

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Um, you know, I hear a lot about, like, the untapped market of, like, menopause health- Mm...

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and, like, oh, how can we create more research around that so we can ultimately create more products around it and, like, market them to people?

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And so I think to me, if more people have access and th- more people have access because people are doing Glossier packaging for Plan B, sure, fine. But I also think it obscures a little bit, like,

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what we really don't know about women's health and the gaps in the market because there's no market incentive for people to do research that- Mm-hmm...

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the incentive really comes into play when you can, uh, just, like, get it in sto- get it in Target, you know? Yeah.

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I think, like, that's a subject I feel so passionately about, is the lack of research into women's health specifically and, like, the fact that every woman you know has chronic fatigue or, like, chronic pain or IBS, and then you go to the doctor and they have no answers on any of those things.

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And I mean, even the fact that we don't have a male birth control yet, right? It's like, okay, we can... Are, should we be focusing on, like, rebranding Plan B, or should we, like, get a birth control that works for men?

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I mean, I think the answer is, is both. These are, like, products that we know work well, and so increasing access to them is not a bad thing.

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Um, I just wish that there were the kind of incentives that exist for these products for the, like, hard work of finding solutions for other trickier women's health problems. There was...

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You talked to this one VC firm that, like, their whole purpose was, like, to fund kind of these women's health, uh, ventures, right? Yeah.

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Or were they working on, like, working with other businesses like this that, like- Wait, is that The Starface? That's more of a holding company. No. No. You're talking about funds.

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The, um, this was I think Ria Ventures- Okay. Yes... is a fund that focuses. Oh, yeah. And we only really talked about their, like, work on birth control and Plan B- Okay... and, and that stuff.

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But I mean, there definitely are more and more funds that are focusing specifically on women's health. Like, honestly, even, um, Nicole Shanahan had one before she decided to- Mm... run for vice president.

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But, like, I think that that is becoming, I mean, for better or for worse, is becoming trendy. It's seeing sort of- Mm...

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like, the same resurgence that we're seeing with contraceptives, um, but just to a lesser degree, I think, because it's, it's not as easy to sell. Mm-hmm. Yeah. I just think for me, some of these products

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are serving as, like, a stopgap, and, like, this is a very American thing- Mm-hmm... that ubiquity of access to stuff like, um,

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SSRIs through, like, Hims or whatever give the illusion that we're, like, a well society, but we're not a well society. We can get certain things cheap that sort of function as Band-Aids for what's actually wrong.

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Well, yeah. Wait, something- Yeah... something I wrote down from the piece, I'll, I'll quote it, which I didn't know, and it's, like, crazy to me. Yeah.

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Uh, the Food and Drug ind- in this, the FDA rules that regulate how pharmaceutical manufacturers advertise their products do not apply to the doctors and telehealth companies that sell them.

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So I had no idea that, like, Hims or, you know, any of these, Jo- Jolie or whatever, are not regulated in the same way as, like, the actual manufact- That seems really troubling to me. Yeah.

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I, I had no idea about that either. And, like, to be clear, they don't regulate doctors either. Mm-hmm.

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So, like, any doctor, you know, in the past could have, like, set up shop and been like, "I'm selling a miracle cure that is Tylenol," you know? [laughs] And that, um...

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And I don't know, maybe their, like, board would've come for them for that, but they're not regulated by the FDA.

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They can advertise however they want.But I think it's just so much more prevalent when you have these, like, large, you know, venture-backed companies that are really investing in advertising and making it the same kind of advertising you're seeing, you know, for lip gloss.

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Um, and, and it doesn't have to have all of the disclosures and all of the... And, and then the other part of it is that you're not going in to a doctor before- Mm...

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you're getting it to get some of that more basic preventative healthcare, which I think is what a lot of folks are worried about. Yeah. And like, yeah. I mean, I- To your point- Go ahead. Please.

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No, I was gonna say to your point, like, I think that's the Band-Aid. Mm-hmm. Th- that's what this Band-Aid is covering up, the fact that we don't have, like, 30 to 50% of communities don't have an OBGYN- Yeah...

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in the US. Like, people don't have access to standard healthcare, and so we have to come up with these, like, solutions that, great, they help some people, but, you know,

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they wouldn't have helped someone like me, who has, like, a blood clotting disorder and can't take the pill. I wouldn't have known that if I hadn't gone into- Yeah... a doctor. And so,

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yeah, I think that's what we're, that's the gaping issue we're covering up that we have to solve. Yeah, and I think, like,

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market, some market incentives for women's health make sense because market incentives, in my opinion, do breed innovation.

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Or, you know, you can see it in, like, what you would call green capitalism, which is like, okay, yeah, we want people to have some incentive to create solar panels or something that- Mm...

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can take carbon out of the atmosphere. Um, but, you know, with women's health, it's like you look at something like Flo, which has been valued at over a billion dollars, and it's a period tracking app.

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And it's like, where is that valuation coming from? It has to be the data- Yeah... because it's not, that's where the actual value is in the app.

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And, like, that's, I think women find that really frightening, especially post-Roe.

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And then, you know, I signed up for something that, like, you know, women's health startup that seemed like it would give you access to getting a mammogram sort of, like, a la carte, rather than having to go through, like, a whole rigamarole with insurance and- Mm...

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like, OBGYN, which by the way, even if you do have access in your community, you could be waiting, like, three months if you're a new patient to see an OBGYN. Like, two, three. Like, it's crazy.

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So I was like, "Let me sign up for this." And they take you all the way through, they collect all of your data, they take your email address, and at the end they say, "It's not available in your state." Mm.

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And it's like, oh, I just got played. Like, this is a data collection company. They have no product. They have nothing on offer. They are not actually approved to say, to do what they say they're gonna do.

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And I think women can be easy targets for that because we know that our health is, like, not really considered, and we have anxiety around it. Yeah.

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And I don't know if any of these companies that I've wrote about are partaking in the practice of sharing people's data- Mm... and so, like, I don't wanna comment on- Yeah... them- Yeah...

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or cast any aspersions on them, but I know that in the research I've done, this is a problem among telehealth companies, that they, many of them have been very, if not, like,

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if not purposefully selling people's data, have been very lax with data security.

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Um, and that is really troubling for researchers in this space, and that's something that, like, folks would look into before they order from any of these companies. Mm-hmm. That's a big risk.

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One, one thing I was thinking about reading this is, like, ob- obviously just gendered, sex-related advertising in the New York City subway system.

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So, like, the Hims ads, like, a decade ago with, like, the erectile dysfunction cactuses, and then there was the thing where ThinkS was trying to do their ads with- Mm...

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grapefruit and eggs, and the text was, "For women with periods." Um, but then Outfront, the company who does those ads, said, "No," like, "It's too... You can't do that."

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But then, you know, ThinkS pushed back, and then it was approved and it was fine. And now it's like, okay, now there's an ad that says, "Vagina" in Times Square.

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And that, like, I mean, speaking about, like, the whole innovation side of it, it seems like, I don't know if in the past 10 years, like, there has been, like, you know, huge steps forward in, like, the actual, like, upstream, like, science, et cetera, but it seems like this kind of empty thing of, like, okay, well now, like, it's easier for advertisers, for marketers to, like, advertise these products.

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But, like, it's... That's just better for them to make money, not, like, better for the end user, for, not better for women, right? Yeah. This is a question I had the, through the entire piece.

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I'm like, okay, we're having these very bold advertisements. You're, like, saying the word vagina. Like- Yeah... Wisp has, like, kind of pop art vulvas in some of their posters and stuff, and it's like,

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is that, is that progress for feminism? Yeah. [laughs] Like, I, you know, on the surface, yes. Is it? Or is it progress for, is it a good marketing tactic? Mm-hmm. I kind of veer towards that. Yeah.

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I- It could be both, you know? Um, I, I don't know, like, at this point if being more,

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if being less discreet about what you're advertising as a product is, is doing a lot for women, rather than actually just improving that product and thinking of better products. Mm-hmm. Um,

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but I think if it helps people feel less freaked out about getting care, that's always great. Um, I would just be so curious to see internally, like, in, you know, focus groups and stuff, like- Mm-hmm...

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how people are reacting to this, and if it is making a difference to women to see this or not. Yeah. Um, so the timing of this piece feels very, you know, it's, like, an election piece obviously.

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Uh, how long had you been working on it, or had you pitched it some months ago? How did it come about? I honestly... No. This came about really quickly. I was sort of thinking about this stuff.

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I was seeing all of these ads popping up, um, and had, like, used some of these companies a few times for other stuff.

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Um, and so I was familiar with them and interested in them, and then actually my editor at The Guardian reached out to me, um, and was like, "Hey, would you wanna write about sort of this in the context of specifically Plan B and contraceptives?"

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Mm. And I was like, "Absolutely." But this piece came together in, like-Two weeks, and it took a lot of my brain power for [laughs] those two weeks. But yeah, it's, it's something that I have...

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This market is something that I think about a lot. Mm-hmm. I also think about it, like, in terms of telehealth for abortions- Yeah... um, and the abortion pill, and sort of, like,

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all the different reasons that that is helpful and also complicated. Um, and so it's a subject that I've been thinking about for a while, but really just started writing about recently. Yeah, I think, I mean, to

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talk about the question about, like, whether this is feminism or progress, like, I think we see the example of, like, how two female presidential candidates were differently marketed, right?

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To the extent that, like, a, a campaign is a marketing- Yeah... campaign as well.

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And, you know, a lot of people have talking about, like, you know, this time around, we're not talking about the first woman president, right? We're talking about, like, other issues. Mm-hmm.

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And for me, I can't help but feel like women's healthcare, like direct to consumer, will have succeeded when it's not really framed as women's healthcare, but, like, a net good for everyone, where even, like, abortion has been, like, a really critical issue this election, although, like, under, I think under-measured until the end.

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Um, it sort of was, like, riding along as an economic issue or, you know, an issue for everyone, and maybe that messaging shows more progress and more success, even though on its face has sort of, like, removed

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the women and female-branded components and- Mm-hmm... you know, there's no pink pussy hats this time around. Right. That's, like, honestly exactly the conclusion that I sort of came to after writing this, is, like,

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look, are people selling really beautifully packaged birth control, Plan B, and marketing it very suavely, delivering it to your doorstep the enemy?

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No, they're giving people a service that they really need in a time when it's hard to access. They're making money doing it, but they are providing a very crucial service that's under attack.

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But it just bums me out that we have to, like, lump the marketing and branding for these products, and conversation around these products into this sort of, like, girl boss feminism- Mm-hmm...

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conversation because it's not about that, right? Mm-hmm. It's not about, like, female empowerment and being a boss bitch. It's like, it's healthcare. It's healthcare. Mm-hmm, mm-hmm.

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Yeah, and, like, the real c- the real point of the conversation is again that it's, like, more than a third of counties in the US don't have an OBGYN, and, like, that's- Yes...

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that's the [laughs] only thing that really matters here, is that, like, this is some form of access, but it shouldn't be. Like, it's not enough. Yeah. Yeah, it's like- It's not enough, and, and-... pinkwashing. Yeah.

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Right. Everything. And to be fair, every person that I talk to, like, from the side of these companies agreed with that- Mm-hmm... and were like, "Yes, we need to be funding the clinics.

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We need to be helping fund in-person care." I... Like, multiple people used the phrase both/and with me. Yeah. And also, a lot of these clinics are moving into also providing virtual care.

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They're not marketing in the same way. Yeah. They don't have the same marketing budgets, but they understand that there are patients that they can't reach in person, and so they understand how helpful telehealth can be.

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Mm-hmm. Um, so they're not against using it. I think it's just, like, a difference in, in how it's marketed.

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One's that, like, in-person care is, like, very expensive and, like, isn't profitable and shouldn't be, like, wildly profitable in the way that, like, a tele- a marketed direct-to-consumer pill can be. Right, right.

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Right, because, like, what... The compromises that you have to make if you're chasing venture scale returns, like, really should never have a relationship with, like, something somebody is putting in their body.

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I just... Well, I... Well, kind of related to that, I just read... Do you guys know the mushroom company Smallhold? Yeah. No. [laughs] Yeah. So they were like...

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It was, like, one of these, like, VC-funded organic farming startups that- Mm-hmm...

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um, I was really interested in, and then I just learned yesterday that in August, or, like, at the beginning of the year, they announced a bankruptcy.

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And then I read, um, like, a lo- like, a essay that was from August from one of the co-founders talking about how, like, you can't eat technology, and, like, they had tried to scale- Mm...

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as, like, this, like, "Not a food company. We're a tech company," but they were actually all along just a farming company, and the model kind of collapsed.

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Um, and so this is just making me think of that too, where it's like, yeah, you, you... there's not gonna be, like...

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Private sector money isn't gonna flow into, like, putting an OBGYN in that third of counties that don't have them, right? Because it's like, that's just not the model. Um, I, [laughs] I don't know.

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It's, it's, it's sad, and, like, obvio- obviously this should be, like, publicly funded, but... Yeah. Yeah. And I think that that's something that, that Erica Seth Davies at, um, Ria was saying.

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She was like, "There's probably s- different funding streams for each of these things." Yeah. A lot of the stuff that's supporting clinics is philanthropy and is, like- Yeah... government funding.

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Um, and we need to fight for more of that, but, you know, like, Peter Thiel is pouring a ton of money into women's health companies.

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I mean, kind of weird ones that promote not taking the pill, and only cycle tracking, and, um, various sort of, like, oddly backwards- Data companies. Yeah, but, you know, he's- Yeah...

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he's not gonna put money into putting an OBGYN in your, you know, rural county. Yeah. And, and people who think like him aren't going to. So it's about sort of lifting up other sources of, of income for those- Yeah...

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providers. Yeah. I mean, obviously- But-... a lot of innovation comes out of America and Silicon Valley, but I don't think it's a coincidence that Novo Nordisk is a Scandinavian company- Mm...

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because of the upstream scientific research that had to go into actually developing, like, the basis for, um, Ozempic and, you know, everything- Yeah... that- Yeah... will follow.

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Two, two questions working on this article. Um, I'm curious if there was anything that you learned while working on it that, like, surprised you or, like, was... You had no idea.

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Um, and then if there's any-Threads you kind of wanna, like, pick back up for a future article. Hmm. Yeah. I think, um, a big one was what we already talked about, which is that the FDA doesn't regulate- Yeah...

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advertising for these companies. I think that that was really huge. Um, and I think that... I talked to another researcher who

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sort of gave me a perspective that I hadn't had before, um, a new way of looking at this, which is that these companies are kind of turning the model we have for healthcare on its head,

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and that instead of going into a doctor and talking about how you're feeling, you know, your background, getting your stats done, you just go to a website and you click Shop Treatments. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

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And that is totally the reverse. And then you go and tell them about your symptoms and... But that is completely reversing the model that we've had. Foregone conclusions. Yeah.

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Um, and, and turning this into a consumer good that you just shop. And so now I'm struck by that every time I go onto a telehealth website, that it's like, "Shop here," you know? Um, "Buy this product."

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And I'm like, "Oh, that is not how people of our parents' generation and before that interacted with healthcare." Yeah. Um, and again, there are good things and bad things about that.

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You know, there are upsides and downsides. Um,

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I think probably if you're a woman, like I said in the piece, and you know you have a yeast infection, like, you don't need to go to the doctor and have a long visit and get- Mm-hmm... you know, billed for that.

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You can just go shop treatment. But [laughs] um- Yeah... there are other circumstances where maybe that's not fitting, and it's a very interesting change to watch. Yeah.

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I feel like it's the illusion of concierge healthcare for the middle class, though, but it's like the- Hmm... it's like the difference between DoorDash- Hmm It's a good analogy... and a Michelin-starred restaurant. Yeah.

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Right? Because- Yeah... like, if you have true concierge healthcare, which a lot of wealthy people pay for on top of insurance, um, you know, and, like, that's the incentive of having a private plan, basically.

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If you're somewhere with universal healthcare, then, like, you could just call your doctor the day that you wanna talk to them. Hmm. You wouldn't have to wait four months.

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And so I think the wait, wait time, the not knowing how much something's gonna cost before you go in pushes a lot of people to be like, "Okay, I Googled my symptoms.

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I'm 80% sure it's a yeast infection, so let me spend the $14 that- Yeah Yeah... I know it's gonna be." And, and I think in terms of threads to pick up on, I would love to be able to look at

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more long-term the effects of this as well as the effects of this specifically on long-acting contraception. Hmm.

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Things like the Mirena IUD, things like, um, the implant, because you can't get those through these services. Hmm. Hmm.

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And I know that, you know, when I was younger and thinking about birth control, those were very attractive options. Those were options that everyone was talking about.

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Um, and I wonder if that's switched for this generation, um- Hmm... or if there has been a switch at all because it's not something you can buy online.

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Um- I honestly think we're 10 years out from them sending a robot to your house to punch a hole in your arm. Like- [laughs] As much as I, like, really hate to say it, um- Yeah. Same. Yeah.

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Maybe this could be your, your book, Emily. Maybe it could. The future of, uh, of reproductive medicine. I don't know. It's a big one. Well, there's a lot to write about there. Yeah. There's, there's a lot.

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There's a lot. Um, but it's, uh, it's definitely an interesting one, so we'll see. Yeah. Well, thank you for coming on to, to talk about it. [laughs] Yeah. Yeah. Exciting. Thank you guys so much for having me.

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I appreciate it. Yeah. Thanks. [upbeat music] Well, this was a fun one. Yeah. I think the thread connecting these two pieces is the FDA, actually. [laughs] Yes. Yes.

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I wasn't sure if it'd be, like- I mean, FDA, the original taste maker. The [laughs] original taste- They tell us what we're allowed to taste. [laughs] Uh, um, yeah.

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No, that is a good point, uh, 'cause, like, going into it, too, I was like, well, it's kinda, you know, it's... Obviously these are both, like, kinda pointed election pieces. Mm-hmm.

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Like, I, I brought up to both of them.

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Um, and it's like, okay, so the one, they're j- you know, very gendered dichotomy here, and one is about, like, dudes with tob- dudes, like, consuming tobacco, and the other one's, like, a much more high stakes, like, women's healthcare and, like, making up the gap of, like, our healthcare system being terrible.

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Um, and I'm, I was trying to think, like, did I read any other pieces out there, like, kind of a- you know, that were written around the election that were more about, like, some crisis of, of health?

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There's no crisis of health for men. I don't know. That's just a reflection of this country. I mean, [laughs] I think there's a crisis of mental health for men- Mental health. Men's mental health...

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but I don't know that Zyn's gonna help with it. Yeah. Do you think Zyns help- Um-... with men's mental health? I think the Zynternet is a replacement for some sort of belonging. Yeah.

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And we could do a whole other episode on that.

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Well, I think what Teddy was talking about, too, about, like, the, the, you know, Zyns and sports betting, it's like these are both things that are certainly terrible for men's mental health. Mm-hmm.

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Right, 'cause, like, frictionless vice is buying something online. Vice with friction- Yeah... is probably going to your local bar, and you, you have the opportunity for community there. And to meet people.

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I do think the third spaces thing is overblown, and, like, maybe we should have, uh- A third spaces expert on? Magdalena Taylor on the podcast- Hmm. Yeah... because she does a lot of, "It's the phone, stupid"- Hmm.

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Mm-hmm... type stuff. Um, but yeah. I think- I think, yeah, there's a lot of threads to pull on here. Yeah. They, they're both about frictionless products, right? Like obvious...

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I mean, what we talked to Emily about is about, like, frictionless healthcare products because the actual healthcare system is so frictioned, where it's like this is, like, an option that, like, you...

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people have to pick because maybe they don't have an option.

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Whereas then Zyns is like, oh, this is, like, a more modern convenience friction that's, like, not because of something sinister or not because of some, like, huge gap in, in how our government approaches healthcare.

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Well, I also think it's an indication that, like, the so-called culture war isn't just memetic, but- Mm-hmm...

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there's these, like, microeconomies around the culture war and, like, the gender war aspects of it that are, like-Sort of like functioning the same way that like millennial like zirp era- Mm-hmm... decision-making was.

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But now rather than decision-making being like, "Oh, uh, post-recession, like where is there surplus? Oh, people's cars- Yeah... they could be taxis." Now it's all just like, "Where's the cultural war arbitrage play?"

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Yeah. Yeah. Well, I, I, I'm thinking more too of like just f- the f- the word frictionless is just stuck in my head, uh- Mm-hmm... ironically I suppose. Um, but like- Friction land. Welcome to friction land...

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well, friction...

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I mean, it's the same thing with like, like no code software, whereas like millennials grew up, you know, making MySpace pages, learning HTML, and now, and now Gen Z kids are just putting tobacco, tobacco lit nicotine li- tobaccoless nicotine salt pouches in their mouth.

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Well, you know, Francis, that's why I like yearning because it's emotional friction. Yeah. I agree. You know, I, I answered... Not that I was...

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This predates my inclusion in a, in any dirt, um, you know, reader contributor surveys. But I think, I think yearning, I'll just say this, I think yearning is the default state of life. Yearning is literally is life. Mm.

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We should do Salt Life [laughs] inside. This came up because- Salt Life. Salt Life is bankrupt, right? Are they? Well, so we- They went bankrupt recently...

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I saw somebody saying that Chat Pile should make a sticker in the Salt Life font. Mm-hmm. And I- we could do a yearning is life Salt Life font- That would be good... sticker. Yearning life. Yeah. Cool. Um, yeah.

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Well, um, I think, I think we'll end it here. Um, by the time everyone is listening to this, the election will be happened, will have happened, but this was kind of our little election special, I suppose. Yeah.

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I w- this is a little bit of a time machine to the future us who will wake up tomorrow and listen to this and hopefully have more information. [laughs] Yeah. We'll know. About- Maybe...

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what's gonna happen to this great country. [laughs] It's g- truly a great country. Um, okay. This has been Tasteland. Thank you for listening. Thank you. See you next week. [upbeat music] Honey.

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It tastes just like it costs.