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[upbeat music] It tastes just like it costs. Welcome back to Tasteland, folks. I'm Francis Stira. And I'm Daisy Alioto, co-host of Tasteland. [laughs] Co-host of Tasteland.

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Um, we do have a guest today, um, but before we get to that, we'll, we have some things to talk about. Nothing too important, but, um, Daisy, who are we talking to today? Our guest is my friend Emily Sundberg.

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She has the hottest business newsletter on Substack, uh, called Feed Me, and I've known Emily since I was working weekend social media for New York Magazine. Mm. Um, she's done- You both worked there at the same time.

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I don't remember how big the overlap was, but she, like me, has a background in audience development and has moved between the world of media and startups, and I think it gives her, like, a really unique point of view.

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Like, we talk about the audience for this podcast being people who sit in the center of the Venn diagram of caring about technology and culture- Mm-hmm... and, like, that is Emily. True.

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Emily is, like, our ideal Tasteland listener, and also our ideal Tasteland guest, and watching her start her own media company has been really thrilling. Um- Mm-hmm...

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and, uh, I'm really excited to talk to her about what her goals are for Feed Me in 2025. Mm-hmm. Um, you also had come up with a kind of theme for this episode, which- Yes... which I like.

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Um, and I, I've com- I've put together some questions. I think it'll be a good one. I'm curious how you came up with this theme, which is, why does nothing feel special anymore? Why, why- Well- How did this come to you?

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I... So I don't wanna, like- Give away the- I feel like I undersold in the intro- Yeah... she started her own media company, but, like, Feed Me is an addictive read. Um- Mm-hmm.

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Emily, like, moves between stuff that might be considered more like gossip, and then also, like, really great sort of critical analysis of what's happening in culture right now. And I think

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things being special is, like, a thread that runs through a lot of Feed Me because- Mm-hmm...

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she's bringing an, an almost, like, old-school perspective to it, like we've talked about with magazines, where things really are containers for taste. Mm-hmm.

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And the areas of culture that she talks about, like restaurants, transit, all different types of third spaces, like membership clubs and running clubs, um, I feel like if you distill, like, what do people want out of this, like, yes, it's status and a sense of belonging, but they wanna feel like they're part of something special, and ultimately they wanna feel special, which is what status is.

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Mm. And around the holidays, I was reflecting, and I think this was mentioned in Feed Me as well, on, like, uh, a big part of office culture and office culture in the heyday of magazines were, like, these office parties.

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Mm-hmm. Yeah. And I can't remember if I told you this story, but, like, when I was a contractor at Airmail, Graydon Carter, who used to be- Oh, the-... the editor of Vanity Fair... the buckets? Yeah.

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Did I tell you about the bucket? We, we talked about this on the mailbag episode, yeah, yeah. Did we? Mm-hmm. Okay. Sorry. I- It was so long ago now. Yeah, so two weeks ago. Anyway, like- It was last year...

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you know, everyone gets, like, a gift, and I, um, I'm like... Well, I don't wanna too much a tangent. Like, I'm still receiving holiday cards right now, and I'm still receiving- Mm-hmm...

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gifts from friends and some people that I work with. Cat, shout-out to Cat, like, I got her holiday package the other day, and it was so special and tailored to me. She sent me stickers and art print.

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Um, she printed out one of my favorite collages from this artist that we work with, and I was like, okay, like, you know, there are people who are still making an effort to, to make things special.

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But I think the friction to that is so high. Um, and also- I mean, personally, I only got, like, a couple of nice...

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I got, I got a couple nice holiday emails and maybe one or two cards, so you know, you've got a rich life, Daisy. And my friend Alex sent me a, like, a shell, a shell-shaped, like, jewelry dish yesterday. Mm-hmm.

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Just matches another shell s- shaped jewelry dish that I have. I really feel so loved, and I'm still getting my holiday cards out, so, like, now I'm the culprit in not- Mm... maintaining the specialness.

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But I did wonder, I was like, what does my husband think as I, like, continue to get these, like, cards and packages?

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But this sort of, like, feeds into something else we were talking about this morning, which is, um, I sort of popped off a little bit about this article in The Atlantic by Serena Dai about- Mm...

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why men are so bad at texting. I actually don't think that this is gendered, like- Which, which, just to say, this was, like, to... I experienced this as, like, a Twitter meme.

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It was, like, a screenshot of the headline on The Atlantic, and just- Yes... a, you've seen a bunch of people retweeting it, kind of like- Yes... one of those just little discourse dust bunnies. Yes. And, like, this...

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I, I don't think it's gender, I don't think it's exclusively men, but often it is men.

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Um, basically talking about, like, why are they bad at texting, and I responded to somebody that I didn't wanna ratio, so I screenshotted their response and tried to cut out their- You cut out half of their profile.

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Okay. [laughs] Cut, what? Sorry. You left the bottom half of their profile. Okay. Well, basically they were saying, and I've heard this from people I care about before, like,

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you get a text and you know it's important, you wanna respond to it correctly, and then you- Mm... let too much time pass, and you went to this guilt spiral. Yeah. I hear- Mind you,

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this happened with my female cousin one summer, and my cousin, my, my flesh and blood, she ghosted me for maybe, like, six months because she felt so bad. Six months? Yeah, she... Like, a really long time. Yeah. And I

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remember being really confused and hurt by it.

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And so, like, my response, basically I just told this person has a baby brain and goo goo ga ga because, like, there's things that, like, we know we don't wanna do and we just do them, like filling your car- Mm-hmm...

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with gas, and, like, responding to somebody in an imperfect but timely way, to me, like, you can't just put it in a different category.

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Um-That being said, like, I do have empathy and I understand that there's certain, like, attachment styles and, like, attention deficits that- Yeah... contribute to this stuff.

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Um, but as somebody who also, like, is close with people who have, like, overcome a lot of that, I think I wanna make very clear I'm not talking about people who take a couple days to respond- Mm-hmm...

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or somebody who's, like, so consistent that, like, I know they always take five days to respond and I don't question it.

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I mean, like, being so inconsistent or, like, that you're essentially, like, soft ghosting people intermittently with no way to sort of predict where this is going to happen. Yeah. And I don't think that your own

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guilt or neurosis should come ahead of making sure the people that you care about know that you care about them, and that they can rely on you for a response.

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And I don't think it's acceptable not to overcome that as an adult. Speaking of responses, Emily is in the lobby- [laughs] We gotta ask her about this... and so we're gonna let her in. Okay. Hello. [laughs] Hello, Emily.

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Hi. Um- What's up, guys? Welcome. How's it going? We, so we were just talking about the article in The Atlantic about why men are so bad at texting. At texting? Yeah. Mm-hmm. I saw that on Twitter this morning.

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I didn't really, um, read it, but I can assume it was sad. I also didn't read it. I don't know if Daisy actually read it either, but she did, um, kick over a hornet's nest, I guess, on Twitter.

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No, I was responding to a response. I saw some, um, screenshots of it.

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I also saw, like, a quote tweet by somebody who's like, "I'm a man, and I texted, like, a guy friend that my dad has lymphoma, and this person just didn't respond to me for weeks." I was- That's me, though. That's me.

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[laughs] Like, I am not answering all the texts that I'm getting. Mm. I don't know what that guy's life is and what his inbound texts look like, but, like, I'm not answering every... I'm not even opening them.

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Do you have... Are you, Emily, do you have, like, you know, 100, is it, like, 100 unread notifications? Is, is the text notifications clean? What's the number there? Let's look. 'Cause I keep it at zero.

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I keep, I keep [laughs] - I have, like, 92 right now... messages to zero. 92. Right now. 92. Daisy, how about you? Um, I would say I probably have zero. Zero. Yeah, you probably have zero.

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You're, I'm not type A- I'm kinda zero... but I also, like, between the group texts and- Mm... the, the ones that kill me are, like, "I'd love to pick your brain" from, which we all hate, right? Yeah.

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But from, like, c- corners of the internet where I'm like, "Why did I give you my number?" [laughs] Yeah. See, I don't, I don't have the messages thing. That's a tough one.

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[laughs] I try to keep these things in various, whether it's email or Twitter or Instagram, and then I have all notifications on my phone turned off for all those.

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I only keep text message and, like, phone notifications on. So then it's like I can just ignore those. But then if I go into Twitter, then I'm gonna check, like, the six group chats. Yeah.

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I mean, men, whether they suck at texting or not, I think a lot of people are getting worse at texting because it's becoming similar to an email inbox. Mm.

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Like, there's work in there, there's personal in there, there's the texts from the place that you went to once for a dentist appointment, there's people introducing you, whatever.

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So it's just, it's all, you're, everybody's getting worse at it, unless you are consciously trying to be excellent at it, which I'm definitely not. Mm-hmm.

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[laughs] But do you feel like you have enough mechanisms to filter for, like, the prioritized personal? No. Okay, interesting. [laughs] Well, this is what I was saying before you came on.

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I actually don't think that it's gendered. Mm-hmm. No. I don't either. But- The Atlantic just gendered it for clicks, for it to be screenshotted...

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and it's not, it's not a deal breaker for me, but it does change the way that I view a relationship with somebody if there is, like, consistent lack of communication. But that's not, it's not even a texting thing.

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Like- Yeah... that's, it goes for anything. Yeah. Like, I'm very present for people when I'm in front of them, but- Mm-hmm... I'm not the best texter.

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Okay, Daisy, how does this dovetail with your question about why nothing is special anymore? My theme for the episode. Is texting not special? Was texting ever special? Well, I don't know.

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It's so hard to say, 'cause, like, I, um, my friend Justin, who I really respect, you know, he sort of replied to my tweet and was like, "This kinda describes me, and I feel defensive."

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And so we were going back and forth, and, like, what we realized was, like,

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it does feel like technology has changed the nature of this obligation in the timeline you're expected to respond on, but I think people have always put effort into their correspondence.

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Like, you know, I think, I, I've seen even growing up, my mom would, like, sit at the kitchen table and, like, fill out cards. Mm.

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Like, I was telling Francis, I'm still getting holiday cards from people, and I still need to get my holiday cards out. [laughs] So, um, yeah, technology's changed the nature of that obligation, and,

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you know, getting a text does not feel as special as getting a card. And what I admire about Feed Me, this is all in the intro- [laughs]...

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what I'm telling you, Emily, like, what I admire about Feed Me is the thread that runs through it of

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what level of specialness do we expect from third spaces, transit, restaurants, the media that we consume, the creators that we follow.

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Like, and I'm using special to mean wanting to feel like you're part of something special- Mm... but also wanting to feel special in the sense of, like, status as we traditionally understand it. And

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sometimes removing friction from things can change our relationship to it, and that's... I think texting is so low friction- Mm... that I would put it in that category.

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Um, but also too much friction can make things not feel special. Never being able to get a reservation somewhere- Mm-hmm... makes it- MmDad Yeah Sometimes being able to get a reservation there makes it feel nice. Yeah.

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I think that's right. Yeah, special. Like, there's the possibility of surprise. I mean, even I was talking to Jake, my boyfriend, fiance, b- I was gonna say But I, I like boyfriend better... not anymore.

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You like boyfriend better. I obviously got engaged too. I'm, I'm also having trouble with the- Yeah... with the term changing I'm gonna say boyfriend.

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Um, how going to Starbucks and getting coffee now, it's like a machine. Like- Mm-hmm... you go in, you leave, because everybody's ordering online.

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So it's just like this place that you- There's your 30 cups on the table... go in and you leave with your item.

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Where when I was younger, like, going into Starbucks was, like, sensory, and you could look in the pastry case, and you could look through the CDs, and you ordered, and you looked at the menu, and, like, there was discovery happening.

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And now it's just like you're in, you're out. You're not making eye contact with the person who works there. You're not even looking at their name tag.

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It's like you walk in, you pick up your thing, and you leave, and it's like- Mm-hmm... just press a button in these real-life experiences. So that would be something with so little friction. Um, and you mentioned trains.

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Like, I've been... I go on the subway every day, and I look up, and I'm like, "I really wish people were making some more eye contact." Like, I wish there... Everybody's...

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It's, like, the perfect idea of how Steve Jobs wanted the iPhone to, to gr- Like- Mm-hmm... I think about the iPhone so differently in the subway because everyone is looking at it.

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And then last night I was on the train late at night, and there's literally people smoking crack. And, like, everybody's making eye contact, and that's a le- a level of friction maybe I didn't want that mu- Mm-hmm...

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like, I didn't want that much to be in the world. I just want it to be a little bit more. Um, and, like, yeah, I don't, I don't love that. Um, [laughs]

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but- Well, wait, this, this reminds me, I read, um, Kate Lindsay's Embedded, latest issue of that, like, a couple days ago, and she was talking about, you know, there's...

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The people have been tweeting the past, like, week or so about, like, "Oh, like, I'm bored." There was that one about, like, um, why can't I read?

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And people were tweeting, you know, "It's 'cause you're not bored enough."

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And so Kate wrote an essay about this, and she was talking about, like, you know, like, limiting social media apps to an hour a day, but how, like, the feeling of being on the train and being bored and, like, forcing herself to, like...

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Like, being bored, not forcing hers- herself to, like, talk to a stranger on the train or, like, in line at the pharmacy, but ending up doing it because she's bored, because she can't look at her phone.

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So it's like, I don't know. It... I was also thinking, like, the answer to why nothing is special anymore, if that's what we're saying, is, as everything else, it's the phones, right?

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Which is a little boring to say, but- Mm-hmm... I mean, it is the phones, right? It's, like, the, the constant dopamine drip turning what could have been a peak into- Yeah... just, like, the plateau. I also...

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Like, I'm wonder- wondering what you think about, Daisy, I feel like you have thoughts on this. Like, is the onus of making things special on the person? Like, you might have a really boring train ride.

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You might think the train is... Or you might think that, like, the train is boring 'cause you're on your phone. I might be on that same train and decide to start a conversation with somebody.

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So isn't it, like, on me to make the experience more special? Hello? Yeah. I feel like it's, like, the solution for individuals are, like, different from the solution from, for, like, businesses. Mm-hmm.

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And I think that's part of the context collapse of, like, discourse.

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It's like we talk about obligations, like, for an individual the same as we talk about, like, you know, the person that you are ordering from at Sweetgreen has, like, the same culpability in, like,

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our social collapse as, like, uh, the CEO of a healthcare company. And it's like- [laughs]... hold up. Hold up. Like, you know what I mean?

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Like, if your barista's having a bad day and they're not, like, super sweet to you when they hand you the coffee, it's different than, you know, Starbucks actively making decisions that prioritize online ordering over going into the store.

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Um, but to answer your question, like, I think as individuals, like, we all have an obligation of care to, like, other people. Like, if you're coming into a public space, like, we always...

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Like, my mom always did, like, the Girl Scout thing. Like, oh, leave it better than you, you found it.

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So, like, every interaction with somebody in public, you hope they walk away better off than they came into the conversation. Um, but I also think, like, I don't want to... There's also, like, ways in which we're

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really pushed, like, individual choice that I think doesn't totally account for how hard things can be, like, economically, you know? Mm-hmm. People, people are tired.

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Um, I saw there was another discourse this week of somebody, a young person, like, tweeted a scr- screen- not screencap. Oh my God.

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A photo of The Good Night Moon book, which I literally was just reading to my best friend's son the other day. And then I go on Twitter, somebody posted a screencap and was just, like, saying this is their ideal weekend.

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And somebody else quote tweeted and was like, "You're in your 20s." Like, "You need to be having more fun." Like, "You're a loser," basically. [laughs] And it's like, well, that's, like, not very nice.

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I do think 20s should be going out, learning, learning that you only learn through making mistakes dating and socializing yourself. But I also realize that, like, uh,

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things were hard in their 20s and expensive, and they're probably harder and more expensive now. Definitely. And I also think that that person who thinks that, like, they're a loser, that the ideal night...

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Like, the person saying that you're a loser because you wanna read or live Good Night Moon, they probably, if they took a step back, they probably just think, like, taking a photo of that and tweeting that is the loser behavior.

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Yeah. Like- Yeah It's because they're tired... 'cause they definitely have ni- And bitter... that person saying, like, "You're a loser," they definitely have nights off where they're chilling. Yeah.

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They probably are just not making it their identity.Totally Yeah I think it's like the perf- uh, this was like the performative I wanna go home early, the performative I wanna cancel plans. Yeah.

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To me, it's just as hollow as like the performative I need to be out every night or I can't function. It just represents two different extremes. Well, I'm doing like dry January, right? You know, here it is.

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We're a week into January.

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But like talking to my fiance about this, where it's like obviously, you know, holiday season, there's so many going to dinner at this friend's house, dinner at this restaurant, drinking this bottle of wine, et cetera, et cetera.

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And I, I... like, what I was saying is like, you know, like, it should be a celebratory thing. I don't wanna just like go be at the bar and like have like a beer and a shot on a Thursday night.

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Like, what is the point of me doing that at this point? Like, maybe that was fun when I was 23, and like maybe it was special then and it felt special, but now it's like it...

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I, I want to like reorient going out or like, you know, like drinking too much as like being this special thing and like not something that I just like end up doing kind of by accident, and then I wake up the next day and I'm like, "Why did I...

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Now I'm like tired and hungover today, and what was the point of that?" Like, this... That was not special, right? Mm-hmm. Yeah. See, I love the beer and a shot. Like, I love it. [laughs] Mm-hmm. Like, that's... it's...

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but it's so... I mean, do I love being hungover once a month in a way that I'm like, "What the fuck?" Mm-hmm. No. Well, maybe once a month, you know. [laughs] Yeah. Hangovers, I try to avoid those.

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When you have a daily newsletter, a hangover is really like... [laughs] The worst thing in the world. Yeah. [laughs] But when you get a beer and a shot with another person, like it changes- Yeah...

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how the night goes versus if you go get a manicure and a cup of tea and say- Mm-hmm... "Peace out. See you- Mm-hmm... next time." Mm-hmm. But I get the... I don't know. This is something I struggle with a lot.

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People talk more when they have a beer and a shot. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm, and you need them to talk. I do, for sure. Yeah, exactly. [laughs] Yeah. We are...

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uh, a couple friends texted us on Friday and were like, "We're having an impromptu dinner party on Saturday," and then they, with like two other couples, they dropped everyone to a group chat, and they were like, "Here's the menu.

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We're doing all Allison Roman. We're doing braised short ribs. We're doing this fennel salad," da da da. Mm. And like sent us all the menu, and I was like, ooh, this is like really like- Special... this is kinda special.

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Yeah, not that I don't get together with my friends, but I can't remember the last time somebody was like, "Hey, come to our house. We just woke up and decided we're gonna have a dinner party tomorrow.

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Here's who's coming. Here's a group chat for everyone, and here's the menu." And then everyone sent the pictures that they sent, took of the food at the party to like the chat after.

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And I feel like an, a slightly older person would be like, "That's so dystopian that you guys did that. Like, why did everyone coming to the party have to be in a group chat?

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Why did you all take p-pictures like of the food and then send them to each other after?" But for me, I was like, this is such an improvement over, um, the way other social plans come together sometimes.

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It made me feel closer to the other couples there that I didn't know that well, and I felt like we established a baseline of getting to know each other that would carry into like the next time I saw these people.

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I like that so much more than, "What are you doing in four Saturdays?" [laughs] And the countdown begins to that plan that you agreed to now. Like- Yes... I, I, I love that. I think that, um, I...

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That whole idea, I'm, I wanna copy that. Daisy, what, what was the aver- important question. What was the average age of the people at this dinner? Probably like 36. Okay, 'cause I was...

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we're all, you know, early 30s on this pod right now. Mm.

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And I was thinking about this last night, where is this like, this talk of like, you know, what is special, and Emily, you just said about like, you know, planning the thing four weeks from now.

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Like, is this crisis of special that we're talking about a function of like being in your early 30s and coming out of your 20s when things were more spontaneous and stakes were lower, and now it's like figuring out how to like live in this next phase of life?

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I don't know. I... maybe that's part of it for me, I think, but I'm curious if you two agree. I have a theory, which is that

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at least for the people on this podcast, like, your Rolodex just gets bigger and bigger as you, like, get older. Mm-hmm.

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And I find personally, I feel this unspoken pressure to like keep tabs on all those people and like get in some sort of face time with all of them, and like that's how you measure closeness.

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So I'm unintentionally like constantly like checking off who I've seen every month or every other month, and I'm like, "I need to catch up with them, get a drink, get a coffee."

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And it's like neither of us really necessarily want to or need to do this to like put a stamp that we've seen each other and confirmed our closeness, but we're doing it anyway. Um,

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so I think it's less about like spontane- spontaneity and more about like keeping people in the fold and like keeping people like updated on your life and, and like confirming th- I'm curio- like Daisy, do you feel that?

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Is this like a girlfriend thing? Like... I think the risk as you're getting older, it...

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part of it is like letting time pass and not seeing people, but I also think like the trap of your 30s as more people get coupled and have kids is that you stop s- you stop seeing intimacy as something that you can have in platonic relationships.

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Mm. And you shove all of your intimacy into your marriage- Mm... and your relationship with your children.

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And I think that's very dangerous because, um, it's a lot of pressure to put on those relationships, but you're also losing something that we intuitively know in our 20s, which is like you do learn about yourself through the intimacy of friendships, where you can become a better communicator, a better friend.

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Um, and... establish those bonds, even if you don't see somebody for coffee every month, that like if you need that person, they will be there.

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That is one other person in the world who knows you beyond the surface level. Mm-hmm.

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And to me, having multiple people that know me beyond the surface level, um, apart from my husband, is very important to my sense of myself- Mm-hmm... in the world, and also like my sense of myself as a writer. Mm-hmm.

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Um, and as somebody who wants to be like read and understood and known by other people. And so I've watched people kind of treat their friends differently after becoming married, and of course- Mm...

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your priorities shift, but, um, I've never wanted to be that person. Um, and I think... Yeah, I just think to me it's about intimacy, and that looks different in like every relationship. Sometimes it's like a phone call.

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Like I have friends I literally have a phone call with once a year, and we talk for two hours. Mm. And I don't talk to them in between, and then I have other people that I text with every day. Yeah.

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Let's talk about Feed Me for a second. So obviously- Oh, you don't wanna talk about intimacy, Francis? [laughs] We can talk about intimacy. Um, no, but we, we can get back to that. We... No, we should talk about Feed Me.

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But, but what, what, what I wanna ask about in the context of this conversation about specialness is obviously you've started scaling it. You're, you're wearing the sweatshirt with the new logo. Yeah, we're making merch.

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The Substack is in the back, yeah. Debuted a few months ago. The Substack right there for sale. The special moment of mailing merch to your readers.

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[laughs] Um, but I'm thinking about like the, the business aphorism, right?

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Like do things that don't scale, and how like what that is saying is like, you know, th- those are the things, those high friction things that are special.

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Um, but as you turn it like less into something, a newsletter written by Emily and more into like a publication edited by Emily with other voices, like what, what, what have you done?

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Uh, obviously you're thinking about this, like how to keep that specialness that people like about it. What are you doing to like preserve that? Um, well, there are a lot of things.

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So I have three columnists now, and they're, they're all writing only once a month.

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So that's 3 out of every 20 letters you're seeing a voice besides my own, and even those ones are getting like all 10 of my fingerprints on them.

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So there are people that I, that still are not realizing that like even though I do the layup of like this is another person who's writing this, there's still people who are like, "Wait, you have five siblings?"

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I'm like, "No, that's the transit guy who, that I just introduced who has five siblings who's writing." Open schools. Um, [laughs] uh, so, um, obviously like my name's on it, my byline's on it on Substack.

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It's coming from Emily at Feed Me in, in the sender address in your inbox. And, um, as I said, like every letter I'm, I'm writing it right now, besides the contributors.

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On top of that, I heavily, um, like moderate and interact in the comment section and in my chat, so people are getting, uh, my voice in the letter and then back and forth in real time in chats and comment sections.

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There is something funny I've noticed about my events, which is like I've had 10-person dinners and I've had 300-person parties. In the parties I realized like if I walked out, nobody would really say, "Where's Emily?"

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'Cause they're there, the people who come to those are there for each other.

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They're there to be around people who are excited about the same things that they are and interested about, in the same things that they are, which is like the contents of the letter, not necessarily me.

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Um, where I think there's probably different sorts of creator events where if the creator left the room, people would be looking for that person to either take a photo or selfie or something. Mm-hmm.

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Where with Feed Me events, that's not, that's not the idea, which I'm really grateful for. Um, maybe a few girls would be like, "Where, where's Emily? I wanna like ask for her number to figure out how to get a job."

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Um- Which she would not respond to. [laughs] No, I'm just kidding. Which I would, I would be like, "Yeah, DM me. Like happy to," and then it would get lost in the DMs.

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Well, as somebody who accidentally went to one of your parties by making plans to go to the same restaurant a Feed Me party was occurring at, and was very happy to realize I had accidentally gone to your party, I would have noticed if you weren't there.

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But because we have a relationship that preexisted Feed Me- Right, right. You'd be like, "Where is my friend?" [laughs] Um, and then I guess the other thing to say is like

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I'm in this great position where most businesses at year two are probably trying to become profitable and like aren't necessarily thinking about scale and, and like diversification. But I'm profitable.

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I've almost zero overhead. I don't have any investors, and I have no team besides three guys who occasionally are writing for me. Like I'm doing fulfillment myself for the sweatshirts that are stacks behind me.

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I'm doing my design, I'm doing my social media, I'm selling my ads, um, which gives me a ton of options in terms of where I wanna take this thing

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on a day-to-day basis, but also like long-term I can, I'm steering the car, um, which is a great position to be in.

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Um, further down the line, I think you'll probably see maybe another one or two contributors this year, and, um, I don't think the readers will ever notice if I'm starting to dedicate a significant amount of attention to a separate project, because I would always want it to make sure, I would always wanna make sure that the daily newsletter feels like it's in my voice, and I think that that cadence of, of daily will always, um, exist.

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Yeah. Does that sort of answer your question? Yeah. No, that's good. Yeah. Um, I wanna... Okay, Daisy, I have a question for you now too.

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Um, I'm gonna read a paragraph from a piece that you published this week in Dirt.So 2024 was the year I lost my faith in language. It happened gradually until one day I no longer believed words held the same weight.

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Life went on without interruption. I was a loving wife, a responsible daughter, a generous friend to acquaintances new and old.

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But I wasn't the same person because I was no longer harboring a certainty in words and all the care and harm they could contain.

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Um, so I pulled that because I thought, like, in the context of this conversation about, like, specialness, um, words losing common meaning is this degradation of the special, right? It's kind of all of a, of...

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It's all one- It's all part of the same thing, I think. I agree. I think, you know, we were talking about before where there's, like, the personal and the political. Many such cases. Yeah. [laughs] Sorry.

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So like the, you know, individual responsibility, and then there's, like, the responsibility as a citizen, and then there's, like, corporate responsibility not to erode, uh, our cultural fabric by, you know, completely undercutting a city's, like, taxi system or transit system or any way that you wanna critique how technology can run interference in culture, um, without the emotional intelligence now sort of, like, coming back in and the humanism, which I know you've been tracking, Emily, as well, the sort of more humanist founder, the fact that we're, like, talking about the humanities again as we're talking about AI.

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And, like, these conversations, like, aren't great, but they're happening. I don't know. Something that I've been saying recently actually, like, in business and also in my personal life is, like,

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in order to, like, maintain truth consensus, like what I like to say, and I have different ways of saying this. I'm not, like, texting it to somebody in, like, therapy speak. It's basically like

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we can disagree on the solution to a problem, but we need to agree on the reality. We need to agree on the facts.

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And you might feel like these facts mean, um, our friendship needs to change or that we, we can make this, um [clicks tongue] you know, this contractor agreement work, or we can plan this event together.

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Um, I might look at the facts and say, "No, actually, this contract isn't going to work. We want different things," or, "Actually, our vision for this event is too different." But what has-- we have to agree on the facts

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as, like, a bare minimum, and that's actually helped me a lot, um, because it's really hard when, like, people don't agree on the solution to a problem.

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But what's really damaging to me, um, as somebody who cares about the truth and, like, why I sort of, like, had this crisis of language is, like, I felt like people were communicating without this consensus. Mm-hmm.

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And to me, that- it- that's almost like... It's as, like, disorienting as, like, believing in God and then suddenly waking up and being like, "God's not real." Okay, well- Does that make sense? This... So yes.

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This does make sense. Um, I... This reminds [laughs] me of a tweet I saw the other day that was- Oh, it does make sense...

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no one that was getting, like, retweeted and roasted, where it's this guy saying, um, "Yeah, it's true. I heard it on multiple podcasts," right? [laughs] Yeah, yeah, yeah. And then, yeah. Which was- Oh my God...

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he was talking about, like, the idea that, like, Ozempic makes food rot in your gut, and then your- you have bad breath or something like that.

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Um, but also this makes me think how this morning or yesterday, whatever, Zuck announced that Facebook is getting rid of their fact-checking team for a community note system, which honestly I like on Twitter, but it's like what that is is getting rid of, like, you know, whether [sighs]

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the, the truth-knowing ability of these, like, fact-checkers and content moderators aside, it's, like, getting rid of these specially selected arbiters of truth for, like- Mm...

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the community-sourced idea of truth, which, like, is, you know, like, you want this... You do want this community-sourced idea of, like, what reality is.

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Reality is this, like, thing that peop- that multiple people agree on, right? Um, but it's also, like, slippery and dangerous I th-... Is it? I don't know.

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Like, when there's, like, so many more people in the community note system rather than, like, a couple people deciding what's true and then rallying around that. What do you guys think?

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I think it's scary and dangerous because we know that this... There's all these conversations happening right now that, like, the mainstream media is done. We have this- Yeah... new president

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that's gonna be inaugurated in a few days, a few weeks, whatever. Like, I think that it's just as a whole piece we're all agreeing. Like, one of the... I did this in and out list that was crowdsourced- Mm...

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a few days ago- Oh, yeah... on FeedMe. So good. Mm. And thank you. That's just, I mean, that... It was great because my readers are smart.

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I keep thinking, like, it must suck to have a newsletter audience of dumb readers.

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[laughs] Like, I'm so lucky that I have such an interesting group of people who are willing to contribute to these, these surveys that I do. But one of the common outs was truth as we know it. Mm-hmm.

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And that was across industries, whether it was tech or news and journalism or entertainment. Like, everybody is getting comfortable with having the agency to create their own- Yeah...

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facts and data and, and, and then you sort of start to hear it in arguments, people s- using exactly what you just said, which is, "I've heard it on a few podcasts though," and they'll, and they'll hurt the person they're debating with- Yeah...

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with that. I've done my own research. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah. So I think the, the, the meta news is more alarming in through the lens of, of this, this changing conversation across industries.

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Well, you worked at Meta, right? Yeah. How, like, you know, do... Like, in your opinion, like, having worked there, do these sort of announcements really have massive changes on the way

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Meta does business internally, or is this more, like, signaling for a certain type of person? I mean, list- like, Meta was bigger than... Or yeah, like, bigger than some countries' entire governments. Yeah.

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Like, it was just, it's so-Big and siloed. Um, transparently it was too big. Like, when I was working there, there were a lot of people that did nothing. Like, when they announced layoffs, I was like, "Good.

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There's half the people on this floor are spinning around in their chair and just, like, eating all the free food." Yeah. Like, not, not producing. Must be nice. [laughs] Totally.

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So when they did layoffs, it was like, duh, none of you do anything. Um,

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I think the word Mark was using at the time was efficiency, and I'm glad that he leaned into that, and I'm sure his shareholders were happy about that, but- And you hit him to lean out of the T-shirt and chain look, though.

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Like... Yeah. [laughs] I kinda like it. Um- [laughs] I like that you also say Mark, not Zuck or Zuckerberg. Zuck. A few people have said that to me. Like, yeah, Mark. Mm-hmm. Um, so do I... I don't know.

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I think he's doing a lot right now to appease the incoming, um, the incoming, like, Trump people. Yeah. Um- Yeah... okay.

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If we're talking about tech companies and truth and special, um, I wanna call back to your Machine in the Garden essay, but specifically one thing in there. You quote Chris Best. Certified classic. Certified classic.

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Uh, Chris Best, Substack co-founder, he had said in 2020, I think it was, and you, you quote this, um, "We want to help massively grow the size of the market for great writing so much more of it can be created."

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Um, and so I was rereading that yesterday, like, in the context of what I knew we were gonna talk about today, and reading that, it's like, I'm thinking again about, like, abundance, and does abundance make something less special if there's, you know...

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Wha- which we... Setting aside whether or not the, the, the supply of great writing has been increased or decreased through, like, creator economy democratization. I don't know.

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I think that's a whole nother- Or the demands. Or the demand... Or the demand. [laughs] I think that's a whole nother conversation. Um, but I, I guess what I'm asking here is, like, when you

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increase the supply of this thing, does it become special? Does the f- is it, like, the floor for great writing is just higher and that's good, or is it just that, like,

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the, the, is there the same amount of great writing but there's more bad writing, and the great writing is more special? I don't know. I think it's the way that he presented it, right?

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Because, like, by Daisy creating Dirt and making opportunities, creating opportunities for more people- Mm-hmm... to write awesome, um, have a, have a new place to write, like, that's ex- we champion that.

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That's really incredible. Yeah. Or somebody else creating an awesome literary magazine. We champion the, that structure of, like, I'm, I want to promote more voices besides my own. Great writers pitch me. Mm-hmm.

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Like, we champion that. I think that Daisy as an editor understands where to look for these voices, and she's not, like, the people with the most Twitter followers, they... Like, we're gonna- Yeah... break the internet.

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Like, maybe sometimes you wanna break the internet, which you should, and you have. But it's, it's through that, that's a familiar structure to us.

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Like, platform, magnet for talent, and it's, it's paced in a way that we recognize. I think something about the way that... I, I said this in the, in the Machine in the Garden essay, which is like the same way...

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I think the problem here is that if Instagram made everybody photographers- Yeah... does Substack make everybody writers? Yes and no.

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Like, technically, by definition, if you're posting on Instagram, you're a photographer, right? Like, if you're writing on Substack, you're a writer, right? Like, I think as

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users of Substack, you have to question, and this is work, you have to question, like, what's, what do you consider good?

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And this is what spun out into the entire debate in the comment section, is people were getting angry at me, basically defending themselves, saying, like, "I am a good writer. You're judging people."

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People were so attacked. Whatever. Yeah, it was, like, three days where I questioned why I did that, and then after that, I realized, oh, we have very different bars.

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We have very different opinions, and when you say that to somebody, they almost, like, take it back. They're like, "Oh," like, "Oh, that's what's happening. Like, you see the world differently than I do.

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I wa- I wanna understand. Like, I wanna understand where you're coming from." Like, you're, you're not apologizing. Like, I didn't ever apologize for it.

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This is what we're talking about, though, like, truth consensus, which is like, okay, we agree on the facts, which is that Substack has made it possible for anyone to be a writer.

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We don't agree on the secondary impact- On what writer means... or the solution, which is like, yeah, what writer means, or, like, whether the writing is good. We have different standards.

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And it's like, that's great, we're aligned on the reality, but, like, yes, we just have different standards, and nobody needs to apologize for that.

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Well, sometimes I think people with low standards should apologize, but you [laughs] certainly don't need to for having written that and started that conversation. I think for me, what seems...

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The hubris for me, as somebody who really doesn't have any animosity towards Substack, comes from, like, what seems like their desire to basically make Substack the Q-tip of having a newsletter.

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Like, Q-tips are cotton swabs, but we call all cotton swabs Q-tips. Mm-hmm. And I think Substack would be very happy if we called all newsletters Substacks.

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Like, somebody asked me the other day, they were like, "Oh, Daisy has a Substack." Dirt hasn't been on Substack for two years, and I wasn't, like, offended, I was just like, ah, the agenda is working. Right.

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Um, which is wild, because, like, we don't call a fashion magazine a Vogue. I mean, we might...

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Sometimes I think things get compared to Vogue often, but, like, if somebody started Magazine and, and they were like, "Oh, you have your own Vogue?" It's like, what are you talking about? It's a magazine.

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It's a distribution mechanism. Yeah. Yeah.

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It's funny, um, sometimes if I write for another place or if I get interviewed somewhere, they'll say, like, "Emily writes the newsletter Feed Me," and then other places, depending on their style, will say, "Emily writes the Substack."Feed me.

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Um Do you feel... Do you have an emotional reaction to that? I used to. Now I'm just like, "This is where I am." Mm-hmm. Like, "This is, this is where I work. This is what I do. It's fine."

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I- I've said this multiple times on this podcast, but John Ganz's book on the, uh, on the, the author flap, it says that he writes the newsletter Un- Unpopular Front for Sub Stack.

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[laughs] Which is the only time I've ever seen that. I thought it was crazy that that was printed in the book. That's funny. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah, and then people do, like, Sub Stacker, which I, I don't like that.

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Um- Yeah... people will still say blog, which is funny. Um... Right. At least nobody owns blog, though. Yeah. Yeah. But I don't see what you're doing as

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blogging necessarily, or if you do write a blog, it's obvious to me which Feed Me dispatches are blogs and which aren't. To me, a blog is, like, an unresearched,

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opinionated, short, well-written dispatch on a single topic. Yeah. Yeah, I agree with that. Some of them are, some of them aren't. Most of the time you're doing something else.

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But when you're blogging, I feel like I can- And then technically they're all newsletters, 'cause they all are sent out- Yes. [laughs]... to your... Right? So it's like- Yes...

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um- This, I mean, this whole idea of, like, uh, uh... I mean, okay, not about newsletters, but about creators, right? Mm-hmm.

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Like, I write Creator Spotlight for Beehive, and my joke is that, like, the entire point is to, like, find a different definition of creator every week. Mm. And, like, which is not really a joke.

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Like, that is what I think about every week and every day. And, um, I mean, really, like, the word is, comes from YouTube, right? And it's like YouTube decided to call the people on their platform creators.

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And so what a creator is is somebody making user-generated content for a platform that is, that's purpose is to host and distribute user-generated content. Um, and so, like, that's the original definition of it.

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But, like, where I come now is, like, it's basically any platform that allows you to be a creator, that enables creating, uh, has its own definition.

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But I'm, like, always searching for, like, more the umbrella one, which now, though, like, I think it's more split into, like, the walled garden creators, what, if you're on Instagram or YouTube or whatever, where it is just this limited thing, versus the open internet or, like, open ocean creator, who's, like, creating for the internet.

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Whether, you know, whether that's, like,

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you just have a website and, or you're on Beehive, or you're on, like, ConvertKit, whatever it is, and you're, like, contributing to the corpus of the internet more broadly rather than, like, the corpus of a platform.

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Um, I, I don't really know where I was going with this, but I think the point was that, like, I, like, the word creator is, like, there, there is no one definition.

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Like, I have a few, but, like, i- if, if somebody asked me, like, "What is a creator?" I'll, like, say one.

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I'm like, "Oh, it's somebody who, like, makes, makes and distributes content for the internet and probably monetizes it."

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But then I'll be like, "But wait, but actually it's, like, well, there's this and then that and then this and then that." Um, be- because there are, like, there are just so many truths of it. Yeah.

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I would use the same definitio- definition as you for creator. Yeah. Emily, I have a question for you, and I saw some tweets about wedding planning.

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[laughs] Um, you know, I think this comes back to this idea of specialness. Like, are you, are you starting to think about, like,

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you know, how, how to apply, like, some of these critiques about culture now and, like, the way that we document our lives to, like, planning your own wedding?

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And, like, have you thought through whether you're gonna, like, share aspects of that with the online public? Make people put their phones in a, in a brick bag? Okay. That's... Okay.

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Well, I was thinking more of, like- 'Cause, like, people do have a parasocial [laughs] relationship with Feed Me. Dude, I did a Q&A on New Year's Eve. Mm-hmm. And I, with my, with my...

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Most of my interviews on Feed Me, whether it's other people or myself, only paid readers get to ask questions. And so many people were asking if I was gonna share my wedding process. And then I have...

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I work with WME sometimes- Mm-hmm... and they were like, "Are we gonna sell parts of your wedding?" I'm like, "No, and probably n-", I don't really share that much of my personal life. Mm-hmm.

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My Instagram is private right now. I don't really share photos of my boyfriend, fiancé. You guys don't see [laughs] photos of my house. I like to talk about things and, like, put them into...

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like, weave them into the letter the way that I like to do that. I don't see myself being like... And I could be wrong, but I don't see myself as being like, "Week one, wedding planning." Mm-hmm.

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Like, "Here's what I'm doing." Mm. "Last night, got a facial. Learned these 10 things. Here's what you should buy." I don't like to be the focal point of...

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I don't want my face to ever be the reason why this thing is successful. Wait, wait. Q- uh, question. So I, I've, I've listened to your episode on Hellungon, whenever that came out. Yeah.

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And then I listened to the one People versus Algorithms. I listened to that episode you did last night. Yeah. And on both of these, you brought up the same story about being at a restaurant with- Yeah...

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your fiancé and, and your kind. And now we're gonna bring it up a third time. And I'm so- I'm sorry, but I, I, uh...

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but basically, like, this person at the end of the dinner asks you, like, says, like, "Oh, I love Feed Me," afterwards. And you're like... And, a- and it upset you.

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And I'm wondering if that was, like, pa- like, if that predated or was part of why you, like, stopped putting your face or your, your selfie in- Defi- that was exactly why... yeah. That was exactly why. Mm-hmm.

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In, in my 20s, like, I wasn't a public figure. I wasn't... Like, I just had a nine-to-five job. Yeah. Um,

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and I'm hearing this sort of echo online in, like, subreddits and stuff like, "Where did, where did this girl come from?" Hmm. And, like, I was working, so you didn't see me. You don't...

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Like, there's not a, a timeline to follow on Instagram of, like- Yeah... what I was doing, because I was working. Um-And I don't like being talked about online. Yeah. So

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a good way to do that is to not really post yourself- Yeah... online. Um, and I'm sure that will change just even like with press and, um... Can you tell this is a topic I'm un- uncomfortable about?

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Um, it's just my life has changed a lot in the last 12 months. Yeah. Feed Me has grown a bit. I have a lot of new people in my life. I have a lot of, um, just my financial situation has changed.

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I'm obviously running my own company now. So I'm just adjusting to it. Yeah. It's a lot of changes. I...

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It's so funny to hear you say that, 'cause I feel like I said something verbatim, like, very similar when I was on Long Reads, which is, like, um, you know, the host was like, "I went into my email to reach out to you to ask you to be on, and I didn't realize you were the same Daisy that emailed me from New York Review of Books, and emailed me from-" Yeah...

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like, some other place that I worked. And I was kinda like, "Well, I don't feel like the same Daisy." But increasingly- No...

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people are going to come out of nowhere because there's no pathway to leadership in the media business for somebody under the age of 40 right now. Mm-hmm. Um, there's very little mentorship. And to me,

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you could not have created Feed Me if you hadn't had those experiences that you have that I was privy to because I knew you. So I'm like, "Well, what do you mean?

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Like, she worked in media and startups at places that were, you know, talked about and culturally influential, and that's why she has the skill set to do this now."

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But I think people have this expectation of, like, "Oh, well, you had to be a senior editor at GQ that people know and see photos of for us to then see you make this jump to having an independent thing."

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Um, and it's, it's weird. Like, you, I feel like you just have to be very clear in, like, your identity, who you are, and, like, your experience, which is not something that is given.

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Like, people are not anointed anymore at places like- Mm... Condé Nast or Hearst. Um- And if they are, it doesn't feel like a big deal. Yeah.

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Those are the types of jobs that outside of them, you're like, "Wow," and then as soon as you're in them, you're like, "Nightmare." Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Nightmare. Nightmare.

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Well, I'm thinking, like, this- And there's- Go ahead. I was just gonna say, people don't even stay in them that long. No. Like, four-year turnovers. It's not... I mean, nobody's- So-... like, a lifer anymore.

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The idea of, like, an industry plant, this is making me think of that. And, like- [laughs]... is there even... Like, I don't know, like, I think of my friend Harrison, the Dare, right?

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Like, I, there was all this stuff about him being an industry plant on Twitter, and I was like, this is fascinating because, like, I had known him for a while and seen him be- doing his, like, indie twee music, and I'm like, "No, he's been working towards this."

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But, so I just thought, thinking about that, and then, like, how now it's more, like, like, with Spotify and stuff, you read these pieces about the AI music they're putting out there, right?

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Like, now an industry plant isn't, isn't, like, some person that, like, has just gotten a major label deal.

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It's, it's an AI music thing or whatever, AI content, whatever thing that's fake and is, like, literally an industry plant because it's not real. It's just, like, is the seed of industry.

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[laughs] Yeah, I also think people, people especially in the culture industry are so sensitive to success that feels, like, unearned. Mm-hmm.

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And, like, if you go and you Google anyone's name, like, usually the Google, like, Auto thing is parents. [laughs] Or for me, for some reason, it's husband. Mm.

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[laughs] Um, because I think, like, and I see this in myself, like, when somebody- Salma Rui is Daisy Todd... when it feels like somebody- The most famous socialist playwright. So Yeah. Uh, and only.

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When it feels like somebody comes out of nowhere, it's like, okay, I want what they have, so I wanna believe that they had a shortcut because- Mm-hmm...

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the truth, if the truth is they just worked harder or are more talented than me, that will crush my sense of myself. And whatever.

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Like- I mean, another question in my Q&A, I got 15 people saying, "Can you please explain exactly how you put together Feed Me every day? How do you decide what to include? How do you choose when to write?

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How do you choose who to hire?" And I said, "I'm not answering this. 15 of you- Mm... asked this. I'm not answering this." Like, this, I have this very special, precious thing that's working really well.

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It would be really dumb for me to tell you that, and I think anybody listening to this who reads Feed Me, if you sat down for, like, more than 15 minutes and thought about how I do it, you could probably figure it out.

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Like- Well, wait, so- It's like being, like, explain taste to me. Like, what are you talking about? No, this is- It's not taste. What are you talking about? Another thing you said on the People vs.

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Algorithm podcast that I liked and really relate to is, like, that, you know, there's- Did you listen to my first episode or my second episode of that? Yeah, this is the, the most recent one- Okay, yeah...

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'cause it was the most recent podcast episode I could find you did. Um, but you were like, there's no, like, there's no secret.

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It's just, like, my, my whole life leading up to this and, like, you know, because of, like, where I'm from, and then where I went to school, and who I met, and whatever, and it's, like, all these millions of things and whatever.

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Like, I don't know. Like, that's...

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I think that's what's interesting, and, like, in Creator Spotlight, that's what I try to cover, is I'm not, I'm not really interested as much in, like, the tactical bits of how somebody grew a newsletter or built their audience or whatever.

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I'm like, well, who is this person, and, like, what is the unique way that they got to here? Because I want other people to think of, like, well, what's the, who am I, [laughs] right?

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Like, well, how do, what's, what's my thing that I can do or try to do? Like, you know, don't, y- nobody should try to make the next Feed Me. You try to make whatever the thing is that you wanna do. Right. I don't know.

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Right. Yeah. That question drives me crazy.

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I, I think I said something likeThe path of, like, the, the path of least resistance to become successful on the internet is to become an advice columnist, and I'm not gonna do that.

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Like, I'm not gonna give you advice on how to- Mm-hmm... start a newsletter. There's plenty of other people who will tell you how to do that. I, uh...

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my fiance and I just finished the latest season of Survivor over the weekend. Oof.

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And there's a couple parts, uh, where they're doing puzzles, and Jeff Probst, the host, is like, "And the people are going to look at, like, one of the people's puzzles who's ahead."

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And he's like, "Looking at the puzzle. But the thing is, if you're looking at their puzzle, like, you're behind, and you should be working on your own puzzle." Like [laughs] Yeah. Tell...

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I mean, classic Survivor scenario. Yeah. Like, everyone's always trying to see how they get across the- Mm-hmm... the courses and stuff. Yeah. Not good.

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I mean, there are certain, like, immutable things of building a business, but if somebody wants to follow the pure growth hacking playbook, it always looks the same. Like, that's a Twitter thread from a verified account.

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Like, go find it.

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The experience playbook is different for every single person, and, like, really the only way to build, bring this home, special business in 2025 is to pair the, like, strategic skills with the experience and taste that only you can bring.

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And people go too far in one direction and think, "I'm just gonna do all my personal recommendations and p- uh, Field of Dreams, if I build it, they'll come." Well, no.

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And then they go so far in the other direction, which is like, "I'm gonna just buy all my followers on Facebook and use ChapGPT to come up with a strategy and bid for the cheapest email addresses, and then I'm just gonna turn around and sell it to somebody else."

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Fine, good luck. Nobody will remember your name. So- Right... like,

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I think what makes Feed Me so great is you've actually paired those things, and you're able to pair them because you worked in the technology world and the culture, cultural world at the intersection, so you understand the way that they're,

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um, symbiotic. It's the same with dirt. Like, it's, it's very simple advice, but you have to, like, get, get a life.

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Like, get a life, and then you'll be able to build a business in the, in the space of culture or, and write about things that are interesting that nobody else is writing about.

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Like, figure out what your life looks like and what excites you and what it feels like to go outside, and you'll get so many ideas. I...

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It's hard to teach somebody that, though, if they don't, if they're just stuck on their phone. Right. I think that's a perfect place to end it. [laughs] Get a life. I agree. [laughs] Get a life. I agree.

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This has been Tasteland. Emily, thank you for coming on. This was really fun. [rock music plays] It tastes just like it costs. Honey.

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It tastes just like it costs