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[upbeat music] Welcome back to Tasteland. I am your co-host, Francis Zehrer. And I'm Daisy Alioto.

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And today we are going to be talking to Edmund Lau, who you may know for his luxury memes, which frequently go viral on Twitter, and then Instagram, and more recently LinkedIn.

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He is a cultural strategist, designer, and art director, and also lawyer, former lawyer, we'll ask him about that, um, working at the intersection of fashion, tech, and new media.

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If you've heard people talking about the dark mode shift recently, that's because of him. It is something he coined earlier this year in one of his memes.

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I have been spending, um, more time on LinkedIn recently, prospecting. And, um, a- a lot of stuff I see on there I really just do not like. Mm-hmm.

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And it's nice to have Edmund's memes come on my feed and break up the slop. Mm-hmm. Um- You know what's interesting? His, his dark mode shift post, it w- it did better on LinkedIn than on Twitter.

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On LinkedIn it got just under 1,000 likes, um, plus whatever ev- other engagement numbers, um, and on Twitter it only got, like, 270. Sign of the times. Sign of the times. [laughs] Sign of the times. Um,

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do you spend a lot of time on LinkedIn? I, I do, um, which I'll talk about though for a second. I swore I would never make a LinkedIn when I was in college.

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I swore I would live a life- Well, that is what somebody at Lewis & Clark College- It is exactly... would be telling themselves. Yeah. Yes. [laughs] I was like, "I will never make a LinkedIn."

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And then in 2018 when I had started doing some, like, freelance copywriting type of things but still working in a kitchen, I was like, "I, I have to make a LinkedIn." Yeah. This is... Like, I have to make it now.

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Um- They got me, girls. [laughs] And... Yeah, exactly. And eventually I have... LinkedIn was what got me my first full-time job, uh, in the career I now have. So I, I have to give it...

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I hate to, hate to say it but I have to give it to LinkedIn. And I really got, um, hoodwinked, hoodlinked, hoodlinkedIn, um, uh, at my last job where I spent a lot of time ghost writing for my CEO, um, and sp- Oh...

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in his LinkedIn account and, like, prospecting, trying to get people to, like, book meetings with him in his LinkedIn. Um, and unfortunately I have never been the same.

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I mean, there's a lot of, um, startups now that will... They use AI to help you connect with somebody in a way that seems really organic. Yeah.

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So first they'll start following that person, and then they'll like from your account something that they posted, and then, like, maybe even comment. So by the time that you, like,

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actually message them with what you want, they think that they know you kind of. Mm-hmm. And I'm like, "No." Like, I will literally... [laughs] I'm really... To me, that's, like, shady.

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And also at this point I can sort of tell if somebody's using a service that does that. Mm. So I will just straight up, like, request somebody, no note. Block? No note. Oh, yeah, no.

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No, I just request- I, I never do a note unless, like- No note. Mm. And then I either immediately or forget about it for two weeks and then I just DM them and I just tell them, like, "This is what I want." That's good.

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Or like- Yeah... "Can we do a call?" Um, because the kind of like slow, like, ramp up of like, "Look at me, I'm engaging with you, I'm, like, warming you up," to me it's, like, even weirder.

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It's like- It's too see-through... you don't know me. You know that I'm connecting with you because I want something. Like- Yeah... let's just cut to it. People do the same thing to me. Um, yeah. [laughs] Mm-hmm.

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But my also- It's, it has to be- I also accept every request and I'm like, "Why do I keep doing this? I know these people- I don't... are gonna try to sell me something." I used to but I don't now.

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Um, it, [laughs] it is unfortunately the social media place where I have the most, the biggest following. Um, it- That's really embarrassing for you. It is. I'm sorry. It... Look, here's the thing. I, I've owned it.

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Um, I could be much better at LinkedIn. I think my, my best, my best performing LinkedIn post ever was when I was hiring for assistant editor, uh, two months ago or so whenever I posted that, and I think it got like 250.

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Um, I don't know. Anyways. I get embarrassed to post. I, I, I used to. I used to. Yeah. And this is the thing, and this is maybe me selling out to, like, somebody who cares about their...

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To being somebody who cares about their career, which I think the pro- Y- When I was at [laughs] Lewis & Clark College- I famously, I famously don't care about my career, so.

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See, when I was, when I was at liberal arts college, I was like, "I don't wanna care about my career." Mm-hmm. Um, and maybe, [laughs] maybe I shouldn't say that on this podcast. Maybe I shouldn't say that live.

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Now I do, I do care about my work, and I, like, wanna do work I like, and, like, I want it to be good, whatever. But at that time I was like, I had no idea [laughs] what I wanted to do. Um, and now I still don't.

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I think the problem is I peaked when I was profiled in The New York Times and posted on LinkedIn and just said, "My company was profiled [laughs] in The New York Times." Yeah.

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And I'm just like, what else is there to say? Well, you know, there's the next profile. There is always the next profile. Um- Um, let's... We should talk very briefly about the, the Notes reading, 'cause that was- Yes...

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what? Four or five days ago now. So Francis was at the Notes reading. Mm-hmm. And Josh Zoerner got to be the one who was like, "Francis is really tall," and I was like, "It's surprising." Mm-hmm.

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Um, [laughs] I, when I was... I, I, I'm not insulted by that, but I, I had the impression of m- maybe I should've been insulted. No, I don't think it's insulting. No. I think it's truly neutral. [laughs] Um, we...

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Yeah, we sold out our event at McNally Jackson Seaport. There was a wait list. It was a really nice time. The fav- Mm... my favorite part was Josh and I talked a little bit about why iPhone Notes- Yeah...

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and then, um, we had three people come and read from the book.And then I invited people to read their own note from the book if it hadn't been read, a note that they submitted to this bulletin board we had up at the event- Yeah, that's fun...

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as part of the RSVP. Or they could just read, spontaneously read something out of their phone notes. Mm-hmm. And people took us up on that, and I think, like, we could have even done that part for longer. I w- Yeah...

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I was thinking, like, what if I... You know, if we did this in the future we could do a more extreme version where it was just like, you have to read if you get called on. Oh, my God. Um- Well, 'cause, uh- Yeah...

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I mean, I don't know if you wanna say this on pod, but there was some, you know, teasing of a potential follow-up. We have teased a light mode sequel. Mm. And this is...

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Yeah, no, this, like, connects with Edmond, because- [laughs]... you know, the big design choice- It's the dark mode shift...

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Yeah, the big design choice for the book was, like, do we make it dark mode or light mode screenshots? Mm-hmm. Because Josh designed it entirely in the Notes app, and we went with dark mode. Yeah.

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But maybe we go with light mode next time. Um- Um, is... Well, actually, wait, that's something I should save for when Edmond's here. What were you gonna say? Well, I remember when we were designing it.

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Oh, he's here, by the way. Okay. Well- We'll just let him in... let's let him in. Let him in. Yeah. [upbeat music] Hey. Edmond, what's up? Uh, not much. Do you know what?

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Like, this is, uh, my first time, um, on a, on a proper podcast, so thanks for- Wait, what's an improper podcast?... inviting me on. Have you been on a lot of improper ones? Uh, Twitter spaces, I guess. Yeah.

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Oh, Twitter spaces. Or maybe just, like- Yeah, I would say that's an improper podcast, for sure.

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[laughs] I'm really glad you came when you did, though, 'cause I have nothing to say about the Oscars, so you've really saved me from feeling like I was- You... Well, I was about to say something about, about the Oscars.

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[laughs] Uh, but you also have the honor of being the first Australian to appear on this podcast. Oh, damn. Nice. Yeah, that's a fact.

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Um- I've, I've met a surprisingly, uh, big amount of, like, Australian cultural strategists just, like, looking on the internet. Mm.

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Um, so I don't know, maybe there's an Australian- How many of them live in Williamsburg? A lot, I think. [laughs] I think it's the Australian experience to maybe look outward, and that- [laughs] Mm...

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does lend itself to cultural strategy, right? Mm-hmm. Yeah, yeah. I mean, I guess we're also i- isolated on an island, so I guess we just kind of, like, have a m- maybe, like, a outsider's perspective- Yeah...

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on a lot of things. Maybe it is that. I... One, one thing I... One thing I've noticed in your content is that you, in your, in your luxury memes, is that you, um, reference New York culture a lot- Mm...

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which I, I find fascinat- Like, I mean, you know, when I lived on the West Coast, I looked towards New York, and, like, was, like, caught in, you know, the, like, downward spiral.

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The eastward spiral, rather, we could say there. Um, but I feel like being in Australia, and being... How many hours are you ahead of New York? Geez, I don't know. The times are different.

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What time is it there right now? Uh, right now it's 8:00 in the morning. And it's 5:00 PM here- Yeah... as we record this. So- It's... We're coming to you from yesterday. [laughs] From yesterday. Don't be freaked out.

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[laughs] Uh-huh. Wow, it's bizarre, isn't it? No. Um, but- [laughs]... my point is, is like, it... Like, you had a meme, um... When was this?

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A few weeks ago, I don't know, where it was the NYC Downtown Influencer Podcast or whatever. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah.

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And it's like, it's, it's, it's, uh, it's twisted that you have to endure this stuff- [laughs]... being on the other side of the world. But I do think- Hey, I think it's- Yeah. Oh, sorry. You go.

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I was just gonna say, you, you benefit from not being immersed in it. You could be, like- Mm-hmm...

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a true cataloger and observer of the culture, and notice things and patterns that people who are immersed in it can't see 'cause they're too close. Mm-hmm. I, I think it's a bit...

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I mean, on one hand that's, that's somewhat true, but I also get roasted sometimes for being like, "You don't actually live here. Like, what do you know?" Like, you know, "What are you talking about?"

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Um, but I think- It could be worse. You could live here and then be roasted for being a transplant. True, true, true, true. Mm-hmm.

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Um, but I think for me, for me, like, um, I've always kind of, like, looked to New York, uh, as, as many people do, as kind of this place where culture is generated.

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Um, so it just makes sense that, like, you know, especially for the Anglosphere, um, it makes sense it's one of the places that you s- you know, kind of point towards to, point towards.

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And then, uh, working in this kind of culture, kind of super crypto space, everyone is from New York, basically. So, um, you just end up absorbing a lot by osmosis. Um- Yeah...

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and then also my co-founder for, um, for Esoteric, one of my co-founders, um, Alexa, she's, um, spent... Like, she's lived in New York for the past, I don't know, like, 10 or 12 years, like, really long time.

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So I absorbed a lot of it through her as well. Um, so I think, you know- Wait, the last thing I wanna say on New York is I know you're visiting here in, in a week or two. Yeah. Uh, what are the... What are you...

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What, what, what are you gonna... What are, like, the things that are too buzzed about? What is the c- What's the character of yourself that you're gonna become? What are you gonna do?

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What are the restaurants you're gonna go to, the shows you're gonna go to? Oh, man, I'm gonna get, I'm gonna get roasted so hard for this, but I feel like it's all, like, the meme-y stuff that people...

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So, like, right now, uh, like, Bridges, that new restaurant- Mm-hmm... um, is on the list. Uh, Dimes, but I didn't choose D- Well, I chose Dimes, but because my friend wanted something, like, really healthy.

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Um, uh- Gotta go once. I've never been. Yeah. I've actually never been either. Wow. All right. Well. [laughs] Um, I really wanted to go to, uh, The Otto at, like, the new hotel, The Mana. Mm.

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Um, I wanted to stay there actually, but, um, like, crazy expensive, but I didn't. That's right. Um, uh, what else? Uh, I wanna check out all the stores, like, Devastated Market of course. There's no, like...

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Doesn't one. There's no one in Australia. Good event space. Um- DSM New York is great. But- It's great for watching. Yeah. So cute. There's a cute little cafe. Um, definitely worth hitting. Mm. Yeah.

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I really wanna check out WSA as well. Um- Mm-hmm... but... Well, I don't know what events are running right now.

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There was, like, a, uh, like, a tea festival, um, in February, which looked really cool, which I re- w- really would have liked. Um, but not sure what's going on for this month. I'll have a look.

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Ben Deebs I think works out of there, if you want me to ask him-What's going on? Or I don't know if you know him, but- Ben. Oh, yeah. You do. I, um- You pay for his newsletter.

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I, I've read this- I pay for his newsletter... in his newsletter. Yeah. Yeah. [laughs] You should, you should ask him. He's there, like, I think he works out of there most days, so... Oh, shit. Okay. Yeah.

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I didn't realize he was, um... 'Cause I think whenever I watch his pod, um, I keep thinking he's in Florida, but I think that may be Jeff who's in Florida. No, he's in, um- Green Point...

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he's in Green Point, the Florida of Brooklyn. [laughs] No, I'm just kidding. Okay. [laughs] That's so, it's not true. Uh, well, Francis has excellent taste in restaurants. I, I have okay taste.

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I tend to go back to places that I like- Well, you're kind of like Andrew Cuomo in that you talk a lot about New York but you don't live here. Me? That... Yeah, you. Me. Yeah. [laughs] Oh. [laughs] Well, both of...

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[laughs] No, but I mean Daisy- Well, I live- But you live near... I live in the state. You live in Westchester. I'm in the state. Yeah. I'm close enough. Um, what else was I gonna say? Okay. Wait. Well, let's...

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Moving, moving on from- Okay... New York a bit. For, for a moment at least, we should talk about- Well, the... Can I say one more thing? What? Well, I was just gonna say, like- No. Say it...

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I, I've interviewed Lisa Birnbach a couple times, and like she's famous for writing The Preppy Handbook, and when she wrote it, it was like the first sort of like

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public disseminated, like, breakdown of the codes- Mm-hmm... of this very sort of like insular class or somewhat insular class.

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And, you know, I think when I've spoken to her about it, she was like really had one foot in and one foot out, where she kind of- Mm...

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fit the preppy mold, um, and was surrounded by people like that, but she was also a bit of like an interloper and observer in that world, um, because she went to Brown, but she was kind of like Jewish and from New York, and so she wasn't really a WASP.

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And I kinda see like the memes that you do, like Edmund, as like almost like the 2025 version of that- Mm. Totally...

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where you're externalizing something that you're able to see because you have one foot in that world and one foot out, and I, I don't know, I think that's... Writers have always sort of done that, culture- Mm. Mm...

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good cultural critics. Mm-hmm. It's, it's a bit of both, I think. Uh, I make... I mean, I, I say this a lot, but I like, you know, I make fun of it because like I wanna be it as well. Yeah. Mm.

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So I, I think it's kind of aspirational in a sense. Um, because I think- You know so much about it, you know enough about it to make fun of it because you're obsessed with it, and that's pretty much it. Yeah, exactly.

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Exactly. Mm-hmm. Um, and I think it is like, you know, people like, uh, you know, may say like, "Oh, you know, this is cringe," or da, da, da, da, da, but, you know, at the end of the day I think it's such...

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It's still like such a privilege, and, um, it must be like, you know, an incredible experience to like be able to live and experience kind of that world, um, as much as people make fun of it.

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So I mean, for me it's at least... It kind of comes from a, a place of like admiration. Mm-hmm. Yeah. I mean, I think the best cringe spectrum is very similar to the earnestness irony spectrum- It's a horseshoe...

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we've addressed on this pod. Yeah, it is absolutely a horseshoe, so... Um, I wanted to ask about your career arc because I've never seen somebody who has this exact arc.

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So from what I understand, you, you were in college studying law but working as a graphic designer and art director, uh, and then you graduate and you practice law for four years. You do web- Yes...

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Web3 IP, and then you switch to being a tech founder for a couple years, and then this year you've pivoted to now you're more of like a cultural strategist and consultant. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Right on the money. Okay.

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Um- So wha- wha- what's up with... What's up with that? [laughs] Um, I... Okay. So I think like taking it right back to the start, I always kind of had this split, split path mentality.

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I think like this side of me that was like, "Go be a serious person. You know, get a, get a, get a real job," um, was like, "Go..." You know, I think it was also like, you know, familial pressure or like self- Mm...

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pressure as well, uh, was like, um, okay, like, you know, um, go be a lawyer.

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But then I also had a, this kind of creative side, um, and I ended up being really interested in graphic design when I was, uh, in high school. And so I was like, okay.

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I did an internship during my like first year of university, uh, at a small like graphic design studio, and I really loved it. And so I was like, okay, why don't we try and do both?

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Um, and so I tried to do both for a while. I kind of like, you know, did, uh, did an internship, freelanced at, you know, a small studio.

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Um, I did like three or four months at, um, at Ogilvy, and then like I crashed out there and I was like, okay, I can't... [laughs] And then that's when I was like, okay, maybe traditional like advertising isn't for me.

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Um, and then so I went full on into... And then I was like, okay. I went full into, into law because at the same time I got a, um, got a clerkship.

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I don't know what they call it in the US, but it's like a, um, summer clerk? Mm. Yeah. Mm-hmm. Yeah. So s- same kind of thing.

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Um, and so I did that, and then I ended up kind of enjoying that a lot, enjoying the problem-solving aspect of like being a lawyer. Um, and so I went... I was like, okay, this feels good.

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Um, because I was self-taught as a graphic designer, I think there were kind of like gaps in my knowledge- Mm...

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that weren't there in my legal side, and I kind of think, okay, well, I'm, I'm good at this and it's like fulfilling to walk away from the end, at the end of the day, um, thinking, okay, I've done something, you know, uh, done something meaningful.

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Um, but then kind of over time, uh, I think, you know, this interest for fashion, for culture, for all of these, for art, you know, all of these things, it never left me.

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And so it actually got to a s- point as an, um, you know, IP lawyer where I would be working on things for like cool clients, but then I would always be kind of looking over the fence, so to speak.

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Um, and you know, I kept thinking, no, I wanna be back in that world. Um, and, uh, you know, like I b- from the time, um, I was a like privacy lawyer, uh, like privacy tech, it was kind of a mix of things- Mm-hmm...

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um, I had a like gap where I was like thinking like, okay, I wanna, um... I was like looking at all of these kind of data privacy things and I was really like looking at like-... taste the concept.

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Like in my own time now thinking about, like, okay, why isn't there some- there's so much of these, like, you know, um, there's so much attention being paid to protecting your, your privacy and your sensitive health information.

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But, I mean, how people actually like kind of make money is off your taste and preference data. Mm-hmm.

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Like, why isn't that something, um, uh, you know, that you can take with you and have protected and, you know, have control over? Uh, and that's kind of like where the jumping point for, like, getting to my startup.

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I don't wanna like- Yeah... rabble on too much. Uh, but yeah. No, that's ki- well, that- Let's kind of just pivot at this point...

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it's funny reading that, uh, or hearing that from you because, I mean, two weeks ago we had this person on, Jed Esper, who has this startup called Sh- or a company called Shelf, which is about, like- Yeah, yeah, yeah...

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giving you a way to, to own that tasted data and take it with you, and like a- make, make other companies plug into it and, like, you have it all collected.

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Which is, like, I feel like it's very ambitious because the reason why you don't, why there's no privacy around that data is because, is because companies make money from it. Mm-hmm.

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And because the, the, the comp- you know, the, uh, so much of the tech economy is so reliant on that data flowing so freely, right? Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Um, I definitely think so, and I think that's, um...

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But I mean, I think now, like, there's no, um, there's no reason why, like, it can't be both. You know, I think- Mm-hmm...

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what drew me to Web3 space, and this is a kind of a good segue into it as well, is that because of the kind of like, you know, ZK proofs, like, mechanisms, you can, like, provide that access so that you can kind of have that preference data be freely, um, you know, have free movement of that data, um, while still preserving privacy and control.

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And I think, you know, there's no reason why those two things can't coexist. And it was, what I was kind of trying to build, but the form factor to what I was doing wasn't quite right, I think.

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So tell us about Esoteric- Yeah, okay... the company. You, which this was, like, kind of... I think you're about to get into that. This is where you go after your law practicing. Yeah. Um, yeah.

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So, um- It's where you started, not where you go. Yeah, I guess where I started. So Esoteric, um, was a, basically what we were trying to do was, uh, digital profiles of your personal taste.

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And so like, you know, I was mentioning before, um, you know, as a privacy lawyer, you know, we saw all of this, these, you know, regulations and, like, all of the attention being paid to, you know, protecting your financial information, protecting your, um,

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uh, protecting your, like, you know, health information.

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Um, but none of it was actually, like, you know, kind of being paid to, uh, you know, how can we actually protect, like, your taste data, or like how can somebody own and control that data?

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And at the same time, you know, um, it's seems like, you know, kind of a missed opportunity because it's what kind of dictates a lot of your experience on the internet.

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And then at the same time, it's how these companies kind of, like, make money by learning what you like and kind of reserving it back to you.

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So, um, what I wanted to do, uh, was essentially create, uh, like a profile of, like, your, your personal taste, um, that you own, and kind of like it travels around, uh, with you.

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And the form that it took, uh, initially was kind of like a digital wardrobe. We wanted to center on the fashion aspect of it.

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Um, but then kind of over time, um, it, like the prototype that we had turned into more of like a, a taste social media profile. So what we had was, um, a,

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uh, kind of a profile where you had each user chose, um, four items to start from music, so it plugged into your Spotify, um, clothing, so you just picked from certain, like, an Essence API that we did.

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Um, and then, uh, places, so just Google Maps, you just added four places and they kind of like combined to create a, a little, like, card of your taste.

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You would get like a little spinning NFT of your, um, of your personal taste.

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And the idea was that, you know, people would add things, um, and it would be a place for you to discover from the people around you and to- Could you, like, mint other people's taste too? Yeah, yeah. Fun. Yeah, exactly.

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Um, so that was the idea, is that you would kind of be collecting each other's taste, and it was at once a way for you to own your own taste, but then also, um, cut through, like, algorithmic glut because every person you add is a real person that is manually curating places.

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Um- Are you a Perfectly Imperfect app user? I am not a user, but I do browse it. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Do you feel like you discover cool stuff there? I...

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Yes and no, because it's so- Or do you more, like, conf- do you more just develop new theories of stereotypes? [laughs] It's a very delicate balance. [laughs] It's, um, I, I, I mean- You can help with your technology...

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I think it's very earnest. Yeah. Yeah. I think it's very earnest, which I really like. Yeah. Um, and I mean, I think because it's so,

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there's so many categories of things that people recommend on there, I tend not to get recommendations from it. But I do like l- looking at it just as a way, like, just enjoying the vibes on there.

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Um, but I don't really see it as utility. It's also hard when it's geographically specific. And I think, I mean, I appreciate that, like, recently that you, uh, you...

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I guess I don't know if this is like a self, more of a self roast, but you did a POV you live in Australia and are into clothes. Oh yeah, that was me. Yeah. [laughs] That was totally self-owned.

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[laughs] Yeah, which is great because I'm like, ooh. Like I, you know, now I'm on the other side looking at this and I'm like, oh, I don't know. I mean, I know what DTEL is- Yeah... obviously, but I was like- [laughs]...

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oh, I don't know these brands. Like, now I feel like I'm getting a slice of culture. Yeah. What's the, what's, what's the equivalent of Essence in Australia? Essence is the equivalent of Essence. [laughs] Oh my God.

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Um- Which $70 shipping you said, right? Yeah, exactly. Um, we- Well, we'll see if it's more or less from- It's-... from Canada to US now. [laughs] Yeah, yeah. What do you know what the new price is? The tariffs. Yep.

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I haven't looked. I haven't, I haven't bought anything, um-... since after the tariffs yet. Mm-hmm. So actually bought, this was the last thing I bought from Essence, um- What is it? In January. So I just...

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It was a, it's a Sacai shirt. Um- Mm. Very nice. Yes. Sacai on here? I'm zooming in. [laughs] Uh, no. No logos. No logos on there either. No, come on. That would be gauche.

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[laughs] Well, my favorite, one of my favorite novels takes place in Australia. Mm-hmm. Which? And I consider myself very cultured for that. I actually recommended it in my Perfectly Imperfect profile.

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[laughs] What's the novel? Um, it's, it's called A Town Like Alice- Mm... by an author named Nevil Shute.

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His more famous novel is called, um, I believe it's called The Beach or On The Beach, and it's about how Australia- That sounds like it... would be like the last place to get the fallout from a nuclear war.

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I mean, that's the best place. And so, like, everyone else on Earth is, like, dead, and it's just coming, slow rolling to Australia, and everyone has, like, cyanide pills and... So it's kinda like Mad Max?

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Yeah, I guess so. Wow, I think Australians just love the apocalypse, eh? [laughs] Yeah. Um, what's, what are the vibes? What are the vibes in, in, in Sydney? I have no idea. I've never been. Uh- That's good...

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I think it's very... Like, people compare it to LA. Like, actually- It's not good... weather-wise, geographically, I've heard comparisons to San Francisco or San Diego. Hm. Mm-hmm.

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Uh, vibes-wise- So perfect to others, is what you're saying. Yeah, it is pretty perfect, um, for that front. Um, I think that, yeah, Sydney has a lot of, like, God-given gifts to it.

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Um, I think in terms of the vibe, uh, very LA, I would say. Yeah. Like, extremely... Um, like Sydney in particular, uh, like, you know, Bondi culture, it's very, like, athletic, like beachy kinda vibes.

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Um, not to say that, like, kind of the different vibes don't exist, but I think that's the... Like, when you conjure up the image of, like, Sydney, that's kind of what you get. Yeah. Um,

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but I mean, there's still some, like, you know, interesting, uh, interesting things going on as well. Like, uh, Song of the Earth is, is this Australian brand that I really love as well.

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I wanted to ask you, y- I, I've- Mm... first found you on Twitter, um, s- your, your luxury memes, but your Twitter account says that you only joined in March 2021. Were you really not on there before?

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He's a forensic investigator. I apologize. [laughs] No, I appreciate it. It's good research. Um, no, I think that's, that's true. I think, uh, I made a new account because my old one I couldn't log into. Mm. Mm.

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But that being said, I wasn't really active- Yeah... on Twitter, like, before then either. Like, I would just kinda scroll a little bit, but- So- Yeah...

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you were active, however, on LinkedIn, where your first, your first post is from 10 years ago, and then you've got another one from, like, nine years ago, and then there's not really any until, until, like, three years ago.

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Um, but we were, right before you got on, we were talking about LinkedIn and how it's cringe, but also, um, in my case, I s- I had, I, I revealed that I swore I would never make a LinkedIn.

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And, and then I did in 2018, um, and now it's where I have the largest following on social media, where I post the most. Um- His largest following on social media. [laughs] His... Yeah, his. M- mine.

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[laughs] Um, anyways, what was I gonna ask? Uh, oh, yeah, so I noticed though, I, and I was saying this, again, before you got on, that your dark mode post, so...

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And we should, we should talk about dark mode, uh- Yeah... and your, your theory here in a second.

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But I noticed that it got, like, 1,000 likes on LinkedIn and, like, 270 on, um, on Twitter, which, like, I don't know if it surprised me, because I think like, yes, I associate with you with Twitter, and you're a little more active there, that you've become more active on LinkedIn.

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Um, but, uh, it's, it is very, like, people on LinkedIn want to, like, like, are hungry for these memes that are, like, cultural commentary and, like- Yeah...

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things they can use and, like, share in their Slack and say, "Hey, we should adjust our marketing strategy to this degree." Well, vultures always are hungry. And- [laughs] Edmund, can I just say- Good call...

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I think it's, I think it's bullshit that Tim Apple debuted the new iPad with- Core Core?... Core Core. I saw that. I saw that. Screenshot and not a dark mode screenshot. Cor blimey. Core Core is so 2024.

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[laughs] Anyway. What can you do? Justice, justice for Edmund. Justice for dark mode. Yeah. Um, tell us about dark mode. Okay, dark mode. So what- Yeah...

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d- you, the dark mode shift, this is, uh, one of your luxury memes riffing on Sean Monahan of Normcore fame's, um, boom boom aesthetic. What do these words mean, for listeners who might not know?

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[smacks lips] So I think, um, I won't go into b- Sean's though, 'cause I think he'll have d- like, he'll do a much better job of explaining what boom boom is. But the- We'll have him on at some point- Yeah...

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to, uh- Yeah... defend himself. [laughs] Um, I think, so the dark mode shift for me, I think it comes from a place of, um... Let me, how do I couch this the best way?

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Here, I'll read, let me, l- I'll read a quote from- Okay... your original post. You say, um, basically you say the last 15 years were about projecting cultural positivity, and that- Yes... this era is now ending.

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And now, to directly quote, "You're either a super villain ruthlessly chasing the bag, a nihilist reveling in debauchery, or not gonna make it." Yeah.

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Um, so I think, like, you know, for the past, I think for, like, a generation of, of people, maybe, like, multiple generations actually, you know, I think for every- anyone that's kind of, uh, like, a millennial or younger, we've kind of grown up in this s- like, time, like, since I guess, like, you know, as far back as, I guess, the '90s.

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Um, like, you know, the, like, Fukuyama, like, end of history. Um, where even though there have been blips in,

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in time where, you know, horrific things have happened, the overall trajectory of the, the Western world has, at least kind of in a cultural sense or social sense, has been one of progress.

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So, you know, increasing social liberalization, you know, people are paying more attention to the environment.

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Um, you know, we see, you know, saw a l- like, a lot of workplaces, uh, at least have the veneer of becoming, you know, seeming more empathetic and, you know, like, things are generally better than what they used to be.

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And so I think what the dark mode shift in my mind is, is that-For the first time, I think a lot of people, uh, are coming to grips with the fact that we're actually kind of seeing a regression, um, or a meaningful regression for the first time perhaps in our lives.

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And dark mode is kind of a, a, a, like kind of a, a reckoning or a, um, a collective grappling for, like, what that means. That what is... what comes next.

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So I think, um, in some ways it's kind of like a, a period of grief as well, because people are kind of adjusting to this idea of a future that is probably not going to be around for a while.

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Um, so that shift to, um, you know, it's kind of different responses to grief. You know, whether it's anger, whether it's nihilism, whether it's just kind of like, you know, throwing caution to the wind.

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Um, I think it's, it's kind of a collective reaction to, to things in the West, um, kind of not being the status quo, not being the same that they've always been.

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There's actually something that I was reading about recently, which is like the concept of ambiguous grief, which is like grief that does not have a real, like, end point or- Mm-hmm... there's,

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it, it doesn't really go in... It's kind of like open-ended, right?

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Like for example, if the grief that you experience if somebody that you're close to has dementia and you're grieving them, a version of them while they're still alive, or a relationship that ends without like a lot of clarity or even like, um, you know, a layoff from a job- Mm-hmm...

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that's handled really poorly and is not, you know, you're not really given a reason. You don't get to say goodbye to your coworkers.

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That's all considered like ambiguous grief, and I think that the political grief that people feel kind of falls into that category because there's still a sense of like, well, um,

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is this just gonna be a horribly ridiculous four years and then, you know,

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th- th- there's gonna be some sort of like progressive resurgence coalition that comes to, you know, recalibrate these principles, or are we just in like decline with no endpoint in sight? And

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I think that ambiguity is where the nihilism comes from. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Because otherwise, like grief can be like really, when it's, when it's not ambiguous, it can be empowering, um, in the sense that like

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there's something to recover from. There's something to overcome, and that can have a narrative. But when it's ambiguous, what's difficult about it, and for me, where the nihilism comes in, is like there's no narrative.

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It's kind of like about in, in a hopeless or like a s- a place where it's hard to find hope, a moment where it's hard to have hope for a future, your own or your broader community's, whatever.

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It's about like kind of by hook or by crook, creating your own hope, creating your own assurance of survival.

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Um, was like, so this is s- a pet, [laughs] my own pet version of dark mode theory maybe that I've been working on, um, is that there's three tenets of, of culture right now that are frictionlessness, uh, the creator/gig economies, and decentralization specifically of meaning, but also more broadly.

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And I think there's probably a better word that sums up all three of these things. But it's about like

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frictionlessness is, you could see that as, I mean, that's what every tech company tries to achieve for acquisition, um, of customers. That is, uh, sports gambling on your phone.

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Gig economy, creator economy is a lack of security precarity. Um, decentralization of meaning is like, um, [lip smack] Meta getting rid of the, their fact-checking service for, for, uh, for community notes.

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It's everything that DOGE is doing in terms of like gutting federal institutions that, you know, uh, try to create a centralized meaning, and meaning in kind of a broad sense. Yeah.

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I would also say like gig economy is like something characterized by humans in service of technology rather than the other way around. Mm-hmm. Yes. Mm-hmm. Yeah.

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And then, well, so something, Daisy, a tweet that you put on my timeline- You're welcome... a day or two ago from Kyla Scanlon.

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You were quote tweeting her second tweet, but that she was replying to her, her first tweet, which was, "Efficiency without humanity isn't governance."

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And what I was taking away from this is like efficiency, I think she's maybe referencing DOGE.

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Um, but I also think like the word efficiency as I see it used and in the context of, of companies is like what efficiency means, what people mean when they say efficiency, is minimal...

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is requiring minimal human labor for maximum profit. Mm-hmm.

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Which means more profit for less people, which also conversely means less, less money for more people, um, which is [laughs] very, uh, ec- ec- ec- ec- economics 101 perhaps.

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Um, I don't know where, where I'm going with this. [laughs] Well, there's a big schism between the left and the right right now. Mm-hmm. And I mean, and there's...

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it's really not binary because there's like a lot of pockets within here, and I think like Kat D., who came on a couple weeks ago makes a good point about how many, like just different pockets of heterodox thinking there are, and how most of them are just entertainment, um, and contrarianism for the sake of like

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audience growth. Mm-hmm. But, you know, the, the right looks at the left and sees certain things that like w- a left, a left-leaning person like including myself, would see as virtuous, like diversity.

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And they try to say, "Well, like diversity is not inherently a virtue. It's, it's neutral," or even like, you know, depending on how racist they are, they're like it's... or even bad. Neutral or even bad. Yeah. But like

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the right, especially the tech right-Efficiency and innovation to them, which to me are, these are truly neutral. Innovation can be good, it can be bad. Efficiency can be good, it can be bad.

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They see it as inherently virtuous. Yeah. Mm-hmm.

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And the reason why I responded so positively to this Kyla Scanlon tweet is, like, literally, like, the day before I was like, "Oh my God," like, they think that the purpose of government is to innovate. Mm-hmm.

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Which is so far... Or they're trying to, like, reconstruct the, the government almost like this, like, messed up ship of Theseus to be an innovation machine.

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But like, to me, the purpose of government is to maximize the common good. Yeah. And I think most of the Founding Fathers would agree. And so you have to maximize the common good, and innovation is downstream of that.

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But then- This is something, this is something that Mike Pepe, when we spoke to him, that, that he spoke about and really that he wrote about in his book, where like, um,

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institutions are about the social good, and that's the incentive. Whereas platforms, the incentive is pure profit. Um- Yeah... and, and the incentive of an institution is supposed to be, to be pro-social, not profit.

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And that's why, like, people tweeting about, you know, the USPS is this, like, why is it, why do we have the US... Jason Kelsanas or whatever tweeting about like, "Why do we have the USPS? It's not profitable."

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It's like, I don't want it. Which by the way- I don't want it... is doing the last leg- Still doing it... of deliveries- Last mile delivery for Amazon... for Amazon. Yeah. Sorry Edmund, we, like, popped off at you.

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The last thing I'll say is like- [laughs]... I'm, I'm interested in your opinion on this because you're more immersed in Web3. I'm sort of immersed in it. Francis, you're not. But like- Not at all...

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the most recent big Web3 conference was ETHDenver, which is like- Mm... people who are building on Ethereum and adjacent to Ethereum coalescing in Denver, whatever, for this conference.

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And the vibe was, like, off apparently from the tweets that I'm seeing. The vibes were off.

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And this is coming in the midst of a regulatory environment that is more friendly to cryptocurrency than has ever been in the past. Mm-hmm.

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And like, not just cryptocurrency, like, um, meme coins, alternative assets, literally any form of, um, blockchain-backed financialization is like, it's, you know, open season, whatever. This is dark mode shift. Mm.

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Dark mode shift. Mm. But what's so dark mode about it is like, they got, a lot of these people got exactly what they wanted, and they're furious.

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[laughs] And I think that's like the inherent paradox and trap of dark mode is it's like the nihilism isn't just people who are like, "You know, I really would've liked to live in a country with universal healthcare."

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It's the people who got exactly what they wanted, um, also experiencing this ambiguous grief for some reason. And like- Mm... I'm curious like how your, obviously this is dark mode.

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There's a starter pack meme for it, but like how does kind of the longer form version of this account for that paradox? I mean, I think with the people that have kind of just

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voted for something or like, you know, had something and then like, I think, I mean, it really comes down to the fact that maybe they've just

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let one part of themselves or like one desire kind of overtake the rest of them. Mm.

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And then so, you know, even though they have got, like they have got that goal, whatever, you know, like let's say like decent, uh, deregulation of, or like, you know, lack thereof of regulation of crypto, um,

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like that m- you know, might not sit well with the rest of the... You know, like a lot of people have, you know, like I, I, I presume like, you know, have voted for Trump just because they want a secure bag.

233
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Um, I think, you know, maybe it's

234
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like some sort of like, you know, I would say like maybe internal guilt or something that's catching up with them and then they're like- Well, and they've also like in a sense lost the narrative too. Mm.

235
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Like, they don't have that narrative because the narrative for so long was like, "I could be so great if the regulatory environment would allow, like if everyone would just get out of my way, I would be rich." And

236
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like losing that narrative and actually having to like explain, "Oh, like, why did the coin just not automatically go up?" Or like- Yeah... "Why are people not using my app?"

237
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I think the loss of, I think some of the grief is like the loss of that underdog narrative too of like- Mm... wow, um- That's a good point...

238
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you know, b- I always say like p- people, like I said right after the election, a lot of people are about to realize that being in power is super embarrassing. [laughs] Um, [laughs] you know?

239
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Uh, it's cool to be the underdog. It's not cool to be in power and, and fucking it up. Yeah, exactly. And so I think, you know, a lot of people, you know, I mean,

240
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turns out it hasn't been so great for them either, so, um, I think people are like, like you say, are just, you know, kind of grappling with that and they have like, "Okay, so if I, if all of the stuff that I wanted is happening, but I'm still not rich or I'm still not happy, then like, you know, what, what else is there?"

241
00:41:27.296 --> 00:41:33.276
Um, so I think it's- Yeah, who's left to blame? Cardano? Yeah, who's left to blame? It's really easy to tell people how to drive from the backseat, but when you- Exactly...

242
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transition from backseat driver to actual driver, you are much more exposed. Mm. It sort of reminds me, I w- I finally watched American Psycho recently, like literally in the last month. Had never seen it. Wow.

243
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And I would say like American Psycho is sort of like dark mode of the '80s or '90s. Yeah, yeah. Like, um- Oh, 'cause the yuppie era was its own dark mode. Mm. Oh my God, he loves bringing up yuppies.

244
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But that is- I did, well, seven months ago or whatever I read that book- [laughs]... A Triumph of the Yuppies. And lord wish- You know y- I wish you never had.

245
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They talk about the preppy handbook in there a lot, and I stopped- Yeah... myself from bringing it up earlier. [laughs] Okay. Well, thank you for your service. But now that's, that, that glass is broken.

246
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Well, so like I, similar to you like experiencing New York kind of by osmosis at, at a distance, that's how I had always experienced American Psycho. So I had this idea of like what was gonna be in the movie.

247
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And most of the movie did conform to what I thought it was about. But I was shocked by how insecure the character is. Mm. Mm. Like, nobody talks about how insecure he is. Mm.

248
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But that's-Like, that's basically what the entire- His whole thing... film is about. Yeah Mm-hmm... he has everything, but he's so miserable and so insecure, and looking over his shoulder to see who has more.

249
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And I've realized that, like, people who have sort of, like, canonized him as, like, this figure of, like, this dark mode yuppie figure- Hero... hero, yeah.

250
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Like, they've completely m- I would say they misunderstood the text, because he's just, like... Okay, this is a man that, like, hates himself. [laughs] Um, and it's kind of... And he's embarrassing. Mm.

251
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Like, he's unhinged. Mm. He doesn't, like... E- every social interaction he's in, people don't even remember him or wanna talk to him.

252
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Um, so I mean, I guess if you're, like, a really maladjusted individual, your takeaway could be, like, uh... Well, he still has money and the ability to, like, sleep with and murder women, but, um, it's not aspirational.

253
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No, it's not. No. And people, people have tried to, like, force it into being aspirational, and I think that's, like, the...

254
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That is part of the dark mode paradox as well, that it's all about nakedly chasing power and money. But any sense of, like, the catharsis of- Mm... aspiration and achievement is completely removed. Mm. Mm.

255
00:43:57.696 --> 00:44:07.916
No, I completely agree with that. I think, like, it's... People have a tendency to kind of, like, canonize these types of figures, like, you know, Patrick Bateman or, um- Wolf of Wall Street...

256
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you know, like Jordan Belfort. Yeah, exactly. W- Wolf of Wall Street. Yeah. And kind of like, you know, they want those things, but- Belfort is at least, like, kinda charming though, right?

257
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[laughs] Like [laughs] like, he's like... Bateman is so charmless. Yeah. Yeah. Um, but I think, like, people just see, like, see that, and they just wanna, like...

258
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They only see the material side of things without kind of, like, thinking more deeply about the c- like, you know, the, the, like, the emotional consequences of, of, of living like that.

259
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Um, it's interesting to me though that, um, I guess even though, like, yuppiedom has changed in the way that it's, that it, you know, that it, that it appears, like, of course you still have, like, the finance bros.

260
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But now you have, like, the new, you know, like, creative class yuppies, like, you know- And this is what your memes are about... yeah, basically.

261
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Um, but you know, they still experience the same level of, like, insecurity, um, because, you know, I, I think otherwise, like, you know, why would all these, like, accounts exist where, oh, like, you know, people are constantly also looking over their shoulder to be like, "Oh," you know, like, you know, "I discovered this place before, before this person," or like, you know, "Oh," like, you know, "this, this is cringe.

262
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That's not cringe. Um, once it appears on a main page, it's rinsed, so I can't wear that anymore." Um, I think it's, it's a lot of,

263
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it's, it's a lot of the same insecurities, um, uh, like, you know, as everybody you remember in their head. Um, I was actually, like, interestingly, I think, um,

264
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uh, have, have, have either of you read, uh, Less Than Zero? It's a, I think it's Bret Easton Ellis' first novel before- I knew it. No, I haven't... before.

265
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But I did see that you included it in one of your [laughs] recent memes. Yeah. But I have, I've not read it. I've actually never read a Bret Easton Ellis book. Yeah. I started The Shard, 'cause I heard it's... Shards?

266
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Shard. 'Cause I heard it's, like- Shards. Thank you. I heard it's really good, and then I realized it's really long, and I was like, "Can't do this right now." [laughs] But I'm looking forward to picking it back up.

267
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Yeah. Um, but I think, like, actually interestingly, even though it says it's, uh... I think Less Than Zero is a lot more about that kind of, like, languid, like, listless, numb feeling, um- Mm...

268
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of the, of the, of like, you know, the wealthy yuppies as well, of like, you know, the upper class as well. Um, and I wonder whether maybe, like, this is just an offhand thought, whether it may be, like,

269
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these people, once they have, like, reckoned with the, their lack of a win, are going to just kind of, like, go through a period of anger, but then kind of linger in this- Acceptance... kind of languid state...

270
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stage of grief. Yeah. Was, is maybe, is that what dark mode is? Like, I think,

271
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I think that dark, the dark mode shift is inherently a temporary thing that probably, maybe hope, hopefully lasts less than, like, the 15 years that you had labeled, like, the previous period of optimism as lasting.

272
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'Cause I think the dark mode shift, I'm gonna use, I'm gonna use the word a- a- accelerationism here, though probably not in, like, the way it actually means.

273
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But I think the dark mode shift is a momentarily, momentary acceleration that has to collapse on itself, because it, because it is this moment of antisocial behavior and of, like, the, like, the shameless bag grabbing, and, like, the rugging and stuff, right?

274
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Like, this, it can only last so long until people who are on the, the losing end of it reach a breaking point, whatever that means. Mm-hmm. Whether that just means, like, people in the next election, like, you know,

275
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a, a more, like, pro-social message sweeping, and, like, so many people enforcing, like... Not that it's just about, about politics, but I don't know.

276
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That's, that's, I guess that's a question is, like, do we think dark mode is something that, like, collapses on itself quickly? True dark mode- I mean-... has never been tried.

277
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[laughs] Yeah, true dark mode has never been... Well, maybe, like, in the, in the, like, ancient history maybe- Middle Ages... with the plagues. [laughs] The dark ages. That's, that's true.

278
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Dark Ages, literal dark, like, literal dark ages. [laughs] Um, I, I'm in two minds about this. Like, on one hand, I think the, like, big periods of darkness are not, uh, h- you know, are not, like, a new thing.

279
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Like, they've of course, like, you know, happened through history. Um, you know, like, we think about, like, you know, wars. We think about, you know- Mm-hmm...

280
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I suppose, like, you know, the, um, like, you know, economic decline, like oil crisis in the '70s. So, like, there's, there, there are times when, like, you know, this kind of pessimism, like, persists for a long time.

281
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But I think, to your point about accelerationism, I do think that perhaps because things happenAt a much more accelerated rate now.

282
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Um, like, you know, events seem to, like, cycle through much faster that it will- Mm-hmm... become temporary, albeit, like, you know, it will be...

283
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It will shift much faster because of the fact that we're in a much more hyper-accelerated state. Um, or at least I'm hopeful that we get out of it faster. Yeah. Yeah. We have to hope. Uh, Ed, is dirt for yuppies?

284
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Be honest, you're not gonna hurt my feelings. [laughs] I... Okay, like, a little bit, yeah. I would say so, like- Mark's safe from starter packs, though. Mark's safe from starter packs.

285
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I can't tell if you don't put me in because I don't fit, or you're just afraid of me a little bit. [laughs] I'm afraid of you a little bit, not gonna lie. Good, let's keep it that way. Um, let's keep it that way.

286
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[laughs] Um, but I think I has... I put dirt in a meme once. Mm-hmm. I think it was in that... I, I did an iceberg meme before the taste discourse. Oh, I liked that, actually. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

287
00:49:29.020 --> 00:49:35.500
Well, I said we should do a separate one for hot people. [laughs] Oh, yeah, yeah. I remember that. I DM'd you to tell you that. [laughs] Yeah, yeah. Well, taste, I...

288
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So I've been, I've been in meetings all day, not, not even, like, trying to be like, "Eh." I was, like, a, a black screen. That's pretty yuppie of you. I was in meetings all day- Mm...

289
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so I opened Twitter briefly and saw some taste discourse bubbling up and was like, "No, not today, Satan." [laughs] No, not today.

290
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But see, like, again, like, it may be for yuppies, but, like, I, again, like, you know, I like mock things because, like, to be honest, like, hey, like, you know, I spent four years as a lawyer, like, so coming into this space, being able to have these conversations is, like, aspirational for me.

291
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Like, other people think it's like, "Oh, you guys are, like, you know, cultural strategists." Like, you know, "What do you do?" Like, you know, "That's not even real." And I'm like,

292
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"Don't care, it's much more fun than what I was doing before." The calls- I like it... come from inside the boutique. Yeah, exactly. Do you want people to start using...

293
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stop using the word taste, or you just think that they're misusing it? Um, I think it's just been used so much that it's kind of lost its meaning. Mm-hmm.

294
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It's like when you hear a word, like, repeated 10 times over- Mm-hmm... and then it just becomes, like, noise. Um- Yeah... I think the... And I think, also, like, we spent a year basically talking about taste- Mm...

295
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and I don't think really the conversation has moved further. Um- And I think when you say- Yeah... when you say that we've spent...

296
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You're talking about taste, you're talking about, like, people on Twitter who, like, are cultural strategists or tech people, and marketers have been talking about taste.

297
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I mean, this fucking podcast is called Taste Land, [laughs] and has- Well, huge effort. Daisy wrote the Taste Economy, uh, piece. But I wrote that in 2023. You did. You were, you were early to it. Mm, mm, mm.

298
00:51:08.730 --> 00:51:17.460
Um, and now it's become overused. And now we're so back and so over it, it's fine. Yeah. Well, wait, so you... A month ago you tweeted this, and it was a joke, but it's a list.

299
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"Six words, words that I'm canceling this year. Uh, phrases, more accurately: vibe, taste- [laughs]... world building, intersection of X and Y, culture used amorphously, and curation."

300
00:51:28.180 --> 00:51:38.740
So I think we have used five of these. No, we've used f- yeah, we've used five of these on, on the pod today. We have nothing left. Um, if you- What are people at the intersection of art and tech supposed to talk about?

301
00:51:39.100 --> 00:51:46.580
[laughs] Make that six, bitch. [laughs] Um, okay. If you had to stop using three of those, if y- I'm...

302
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J- just as a thought exercise, if you could never use three of those phrases again, which would you choose to abandon? I use... Okay, so it's definitely not gonna be vibes because I use vibes way too much. Mm, mm-hmm.

303
00:51:57.670 --> 00:52:09.340
Um, and it's just become my, like, de facto response, so not that. Um, oh, geez, I don't- Isn't vibe in your handle, or no? Nostalgia Express is his handle. Oh, okay. Yeah. Um, oh, gosh.

304
00:52:09.460 --> 00:52:21.680
Okay, I think, uh, intersection of art and technology I think definitely that goes in the never use pile. I hate it. Yeah, that's easy to abandon too. Um, yeah. Culture used amorphously, no, I'm gonna keep that one.

305
00:52:22.020 --> 00:52:29.780
Um, I think world building I think we could ditch- Yeah... because I think it's another thing that's kind of, like, amorphous, and, like- So then you've got curation-... you can substitute things more specifically...

306
00:52:29.820 --> 00:52:42.240
curation and taste are the final two. You have to get rid of one of those. Final bosses. Final bosses. Um, I would... That's hard, actually. Um, ironic because I'm, like, said I wouldn't, wouldn't use either.

307
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[laughs] Um, I think maybe I would get rid of taste. Mm. Mm-hmm. I mean, because it's just so...

308
00:52:49.500 --> 00:53:02.650
I mean, I understand, like, the point of it is that just to describe someone's, like, personal sensibilities, but I think there's so many different ways you can kind of be more specific rather than saying the word taste.

309
00:53:02.700 --> 00:53:12.120
Get to style. Yeah. And I think, you know, um, I'd rather somebody say something more specifically around, um... Like, unless you're describing something

310
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with taste, like, as in, like, a, a more, like, colloquial setting, you know? Mm. For example, saying like, "Oh," you know, like, "Oh, I don't know what your taste in clothing is." Like, that's fine. Yeah.

311
00:53:22.620 --> 00:53:31.979
But, like, using taste as this high, like, you know, highbrow concept I think is really kind of quite- Taste used amorphously. Yeah, taste used amorphously. I'm not, I'm not about.

312
00:53:32.020 --> 00:53:41.410
Well, it just doesn't make sense to discuss if you're not talking about active things like curation. Like, what is the actual distribution mechanism for somebody's taste? Yeah, exactly.

313
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Like, where, where and when are you signaling it? To whom? Um,

314
00:53:47.800 --> 00:54:02.480
so I understand why people get frustrated because if you're not talking about those mechanics or, like, kind of the who, what, where, when, why of how it's disseminated, then you're not really talking about anything substantial.

315
00:54:02.900 --> 00:54:12.520
Um- Exactly, exactly... it's like you can't see the inside of somebody else's brain. Mm. And actually, like, the taste that you can see, like, I mean, the iceberg metaphor is interesting.

316
00:54:12.580 --> 00:54:18.900
Like, the taste that you can see is only such a small slice of the experience- Mm... of how somebody experiences art.

317
00:54:19.260 --> 00:54:31.490
Like, I think we've talked about that before on this podcast, like- Like revealed preferences versus projected. Yeah. Josh, Josh Citarella was talking about, like, how, um, [lips smack] like... What was...

318
00:54:31.580 --> 00:54:33.440
I'm trying to remember the word that he used.

319
00:54:33.520 --> 00:54:47.278
Like, this idea that people can use AI to self-insert into literature, and then they'll have-Like a basically a deeper experience of it misunderstands that, like, all literature is a self-insert- Mm. Mm-hmm. Mm...

320
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because of the way that we read and, like- Mm-hmm... the way that we experience a painting.

321
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Like, if you and I stand next to the same painting at MoMA and I ask you what you think of it, I'm really only getting a very small slice of- Mm. Mm...

322
00:55:00.388 --> 00:55:06.938
your actual experience of that thing, which is what you're able to articulate. There's only so much you can really communicate. Yeah, and taste- Mm-hmm... is the same way.

323
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And I think, like, the, the, the part that can't be articulated, which is, like, attention, memory, the emotional somatic experience in the body is the real thing that AI can't replicate.

324
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The public taste signaling AI could get pretty good at. Mm. And all of that nuance is missed in the way that, like, VCs talk about taste and, and other people, um- Mm... and sometimes me. Wait, I wanna define- Mm...

325
00:55:36.038 --> 00:55:45.538
so another one I wanna define, Edmund Meg, I'm asking you this, is luxury. How do you define luxury? Ooh. Oh, I was like- Ooh... ah, I was, like, thinking about this the other day.

326
00:55:45.968 --> 00:55:58.028
I mean, as, when it comes down to it, I always kind of go back to, like, the, like, Veblen's, like, definition- Mm-hmm... of just, like- It's so classic for a reason. Yeah, yeah. I mean, it's, like, status signaling.

327
00:55:58.208 --> 00:56:07.008
It's, like, you know, there's a point of which I think, you know, consumption is about just, like, kind of displaying a, displaying status or signaling, you know, abundance.

328
00:56:07.128 --> 00:56:17.048
And I think the, uh, what is defined as abundance has changed over the years. But I think at the end of the day, like, you know, um, luxury is...

329
00:56:18.668 --> 00:56:25.388
Like, you know, there are, like, there's components to it, like, you know, like extreme quality- Mm-hmm... um, uh, you know, exclusivity.

330
00:56:25.488 --> 00:56:31.728
But in terms of a social s- like, function, it's always been about status signaling. So that's how I would define it.

331
00:56:32.148 --> 00:56:40.508
Um, or like, you know, status signaling and then there's an, you know, the, the, the, the, there's a feeling of, um, you know, like, abundance and excess about it.

332
00:56:40.848 --> 00:56:50.108
So, like, I did this luxury pyramid, like, you know, um, uh- That was a really good one... a little while ago. Yeah. Thank you. Um, and, you know, at the top of the pyramid was, like, having kids and being cool.

333
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And, like, I think really that kind of speaks to it because having children should not, you know, be a luxury. Mm.

334
00:56:57.688 --> 00:57:13.028
Yet having multiple kids in, like, a city like, you know, in Sydney or, or New York is, has become, like, a status, luxury status symbol because, you know, at once it shows that you have, like, you know, economic capacity to, to provide and it's also, like, um...

335
00:57:13.928 --> 00:57:23.888
It's also kind of excessive in a way, because I mean, like, the population is, you know, the global population is, like, what? 7 billion now. So in some ways it is- Yeah... kind of an indulgence as well.

336
00:57:24.088 --> 00:57:34.328
You know, not to say that people shouldn't have kids, but, um- Well, and I mean, the birth rate- Yeah... is, uh, is falling. Yeah. Ed, I think you should make a yuppie pilgrimage to Balthazar when you're in New York.

337
00:57:34.348 --> 00:57:40.268
[laughs] That's my advice. I... It's already on the list. [laughs] Perfect. Well, and Balthazar is really, like...

338
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What I like about that is at one point in time, it would have been in a starter pack for a certain type of person, but it's almost just, like, post... It's, like, not post-cringe, but it's just- Tanalized classic. Yeah.

339
00:57:55.708 --> 00:58:10.078
Yeah. Exactly. Exactly. Mm-hmm. I think- Never been. Never been to... I've never eaten at a Keith McNally restaurant. Period. That's crazy, but really actually a true flex. Um- [laughs] Is that luxury?

340
00:58:10.108 --> 00:58:19.118
We could, we might need to unpack that on a future episode. I honestly think, like, you might- Save it for next season... you might get contacted to write an article about this for Eater. [laughs] Uh-huh.

341
00:58:19.128 --> 00:58:20.628
By our, one of our listeners. I can, I can...

342
00:58:20.797 --> 00:58:33.908
Well, mm, you could, you could contract me for Dirt to write a review of his upcoming, um, uh, autobiography, and then as part of that, after I read it, I can go to his restaurant, and that can be part of the review as well.

343
00:58:33.968 --> 00:58:43.308
Yeah, I think you should have to go to all of them, but, like, in a really compressed [laughs] amount of time. Mm. Like, in one day. [laughs] I actually- I always wanted to- Yeah. Um- What were you gonna say?

344
00:58:43.948 --> 00:58:55.808
Like, I've been to Balthazar, uh, um, a couple times, but I'm like- Oh, never mind then. Um, I wanted to compare, like... Well, not compare, but I'm, like, always, like, interested.

345
00:58:55.848 --> 00:59:06.708
Like, what is the difference between, like, Balthazar and Pastis? Like, it seems like the same kind of place to me. Vibes. Vibes. If we're allowed to say it- Yeah... I'm gonna say it. Um, I've actually...

346
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I think I've been to Minetta Tavern. I've been to Odeon. I haven't been to all of them. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. It's like for me- We're rolling...

347
00:59:14.148 --> 00:59:21.688
when I lived in New Orleans, I didn't go to any of the classic famous New Orleans restaurants because it's like, like, you know, oh, I'll e- I'll go eventually.

348
00:59:21.728 --> 00:59:28.248
Like Cafe Du Monde, you know, which is famous for the beignets, I only went, like, two weeks before I moved away with a friend who was saying, "You wanna do it?" What's the bananas foster place?

349
00:59:29.028 --> 00:59:31.918
Um, I don't, I don't know. There's probably a few. Who knows?

350
00:59:31.918 --> 00:59:41.488
But, but I think the point is it's in the same way as I've discussed on this podcast before where I've never, I've never read a Vonnegut novel because I get that I, I didn't in high school when you're supposed to, and I get that I'll like it.

351
00:59:41.628 --> 00:59:51.668
I haven't watched Twin Peaks 'cause I get that. Like, I don't know. Maybe it's some addiction to, to seeking out the new. Brennan's. Uh, which I've, I've, I've been trying to do that myself. Did you ever go to Brennan's?

352
00:59:51.708 --> 01:00:00.098
Brennan's? No, I've not been to Bre- No, I didn't go to any of the classic spots. I went to... I don't know. I- Did you go to Hank's? That's my classic spot. Uh, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

353
01:00:00.208 --> 01:00:06.868
[laughs] We've talked, we've talked about that on, on the microphone. You know I have a shirt and a hat. Yeah, I know, 'cause we've- Have you been to New Orleans, Ed? No, I haven't. Oh, man.

354
01:00:06.988 --> 01:00:18.128
That's the next- That's next stop... the next trip. Mm-hmm. It's Mardi Gras there as we record today. I know. I for- I usually order a king cake, and I forgot. Yeah. It's been Sydney Mardi Gras as well, actually.

355
01:00:18.308 --> 01:00:27.318
They [laughs] do Mardi Gras. It's already... [laughs] Well, Mardi Gras was yesterday, so. It was a day ago. [laughs] Yeah. Oh my God. Well, this is a good place to end. I feel like we- Yeah, that's a good... Yeah...

356
01:00:27.328 --> 01:00:36.528
we've gotten to a lot. Um, thank you so much for coming on. I hope that we didn't overwhelm you- No, this is, you know, it's like-... with our- No, not at all. I hope I provided some, uh, some decent, decent chats.

357
01:00:36.688 --> 01:00:42.048
Absolutely. You surely did. This was fun. Yeah. Yeah. Great ep. All right. Thank you, listeners. We will see you next week.

358
01:00:44.268 --> 01:00:57.568
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