[upbeat music] Welcome back to Tasteland. I am Francis Zehr. And I'm Daisy Alioto. And Daisy, who are we speaking with today? We're talking with my friend Trey Taylor.
He had a long career in media at places like The Face before pivoting to advertising, specifically targeting Gen Z consumers. Mm-hmm.
And then he learned how to make perfume, and he just launched his perfume brand, Serviette. Uh, the launch party was so cool, tasteful.
Um, I'm sure he'll tell you about this, but he played off the idea of a serviette as, uh, historically a face covering- Mm-hmm...
in addition to being a napkin, and had his perfumes set beautifully at, uh, place settings. And I am currently wearing one of his perfumes right now, so I'm excited to get into it with him.
I am excited to hear all about it. One thing, while we wait for him, one thing I wanted to talk about that's been on my mind since we spoke to Cat D. is how she said that the internet is oral history.
Internet history is oral history. Mm-hmm. Um, and then, I, sometime in the last couple weeks, I've started thinking about how, like, AI writer panic and, like, you know- Mm-hmm... is AI gonna replace writing?
I don't think it is. I think that's a whole 'nother conversation. Um, but also, like, people reading less, and I, like, trying to take, like, an optimistic edge on it w- without getting into the doom and gloom.
Well, I wouldn't know people are reading less based on their response to, uh, Dirt launching our books publication Blank- Mm-hmm... because it has been wildly enthusiastic.
Well, okay, you know, y- you're, you're, you're serving a rarefied portion of the population here, to be sure. But okay, we, you can talk about that.
We can talk about Blank, 'cause we forgot to talk about that last week, but what I [laughs] will say- I didn't forget. You did for- okay, you did forget You had an agenda. It's okay. [laughs] I had an agenda.
I was, I was in a mood. Um, but no, could there be, like, an exciting new oral culture? Like, is there a new way of, like, treating... I, I mean, for one, you are a known, a serial voice note sender. That's oral culture.
Mm-hmm. Um, podcasts, oral culture. Uh, I don't know. Please stop saying oral. I don't know. [laughs] Can we invent some sort of new word? Jesus, okay. Spoken word. Um- Spoken word. Okay, spoken word culture.
What is this? Uh- Slam poetry? It might be. Um- No way. The sun- That sounds like the worst podcast-... shines... concept of all time. Um, I think, okay, this is what I think, though.
I think if oral culture does not, is not at some point converted into text, it's lost to history. Mm-hmm. That, yeah.
Things can circulate orally, but the ones that are the most lasting, there's an oral tradition, and there's a text tradition, and I think that that's, like, what we're seeing with the sort of, like,
not collapse of podcasting. Obviously, podcasting's still really strong. Well, wait, wait, sorry to interrupt quickly.
What, what, maybe it's the better word audio culture rather than oral culture, audio implying, like, audio files- Yes... instead of oral. I think audio and text have a symbiotic relationship. Mm-hmm.
They need to work together. A lot of the podcasts that have been produced have been very relevant in their time, but, but audio culture really lives in, like, the present moment. Um, it's really hard to archive. Mm-hmm.
Uh, you can't archive it the same way that you can archive text.
I think the most lasting things produced during this period and on the internet and by the internet will have to have some relationship to text in time in order to be historically relevant. I agree.
Obviously, that's very self-serving to me, but that's just what I think. To that point, our guest is here. Yes.
Um, let's let Trey in, and listener, you will listen to this, but you can also read an excerpt of it in Dirt Audio- Yeah... to Text, uh, shortly after. Anyways, here's Trey. We're making scent history.
Scent, we're, we're making scent history. [upbeat music] Hey. What's up? Hi. It's so good to have you. I was telling Francis in the intro, I'm wearing Serviette right now.
Um, I'm wearing Frisson d'Hiver. Okay. [laughs] Frisson, Frisson d'Hiver. Yes. Love that. Sorry, I botched the French. No. Um, I, it's interesting. So I, [laughs]
the other thing I said is I got, like, really shy about taking samples, so I only took two out of four, which was really dumb, because that was the whole point of the event. Mm-hmm.
But I was like, "I shouldn't be greedy." So I also- You should've taken six. I should've taken six.
I also had my backpack, which I, when I saw a photo of how full the event got, I texted our mutual friend Collie, and I was like, "It's really good I left when I did," because, A, I would've been extremely overstimulated, B, like, the backpack was not gonna fly.
Um- Right... and by backpack, I mean my, like, very slim laptop backpack. [laughs] But something- Like you would if it was just gosh... backpack. Yeah.
Yeah, something about putting the samples into the backpack felt very illicit to me, and after, like, two, I just got profoundly self-conscious.
[laughs] Um, but I did think Sour Diesel was gonna be my favorite, and I did love Sour Diesel, but this one is really growing on me. Oh, okay.
I think it's so interesting how people have, you know, in their mind, they're like, "I love sandalwood." And then they're like, "Wait, actually, I like this other scent that has no sandalwood." And I'm like,
you know, you think one thing, and you smell another thing, and it just, it's different, you know?
So tell us more about the launch event and how it came together and how people have been sort of, what the feedback has been as people sort of get their hands on the scents.
I mean, what's interesting is I have never hosted an event in my life. Totally. Oh, you're lucky you got away this long without doing it 'cause it's very stressful. I'm planning one right now.
[laughs] Like, I am s- I'm not the person to, you know, have friends over even- Mm-hmm... because it, like, freaks me out. Mm-hmm.
So the fact that I was sort of the center of everyone's roving gaze and, like, comments was-Kind of terrifying.
And I think what's also interesting is, like, I've spent five years now creating these fragrances in isolation. Mm-hmm. Like, the only person I've had to kind of give any sort of feedback is, like, my boyfriend, Daniel.
And so when you suddenly have, like, nearly 100 people coming up to you being like, "I love this one. This one's like..." I mean, people are very effusive, and I'm sure it's all, you know, true. But- [chuckles]...
they were like, "Oh, this, you know, this changed my life." [laughs] Like, "This one's my favorite, blah, blah, blah. I can't wait to wear this and show this person." And,
you know, it's sort of like I imagine what a wedding day would be like- Mm... where, you know, everyone's like, "It must be the happiest day of your life." And if you say no, there would be like offended.
Well, I mean, like a wedding, this event isn't so much for you as it is for other people, right? Right. Right. Yeah. Um, and I'm, you know, like a we- not like a wedding. You're kind of promoting something.
So, uh- Which, uh, which one were you wearing at the event, of the four? I wore Byronic Hero, um, which is this deep rosy oud, which has, like, this fir balsam note and, like, this cutting note of diesel exhaust.
I really wanted all of my fragrances, there's four of them, uh, to have a kind of, like, unexpected note that would maybe catch you off guard in a way or even be, like, slightly off-putting, where you're kind of like, "Oh, on the face of it, this smells nice, but hold on a second.
What is that? Like, did a, did a car just drive by and, like-" [laughs] "... the carburetor" I don't know what those words are, but- [laughs]... you know, did something, like, blow up in my face? Um, but it's very...
I don't know. It's very wearable. Like, nothing is here to freak you out. I'm not an experimental perfumer by any means. I want to go, you know, in with these sort of comfort-rendering scents.
Like, there has to be some kind of familiarity to it because I don't think anyone, especially when it comes to fragrance, um, wants to be pushed too far outside of their comfort zone. Mm-hmm.
And if they do, they're shit for that. Like, there's a freak scent, too, that, like- Yeah, I love a freak scent... you can find somewhere. But- Mm. But for me, I, you know... I think, like, we all have an immediate
reaction to scent that we don't maybe have with other things. Like- This is just the Chrêon Magnifique. [laughs] No, exact- [laughs] Mm. Right. So- Well, is Byronic Hero the closest to what you gave me in, like, 2022?
Yes. Yes. 'Cause I was an early tester. So I loved that thing. I rode that sample into the dirt. [laughs] I was like, you know, last, like, sort of sprays like, "Come on. Come on."
And it's one of the ones that I forgot to take, which is, like, figures. But, um- We'll get, we'll get you one. Thanks, Fred. How do you... Wait, so you, you've been...
You started teaching yourself how to do this in 2020, which I don't know so much about perfume production, but it seems like a s- particularly hard thing to have to teach yourself.
I understand that, like, ingredients are expensive, et cetera. Um, uh, how did you teach yourself how to do this? Well, the, the startup costs are astronomical. I basically, like,
I don't know, in my mind, was saving up for, uh, the eventual house purchase, and, like, was nowhere near a deposit. But all of that is completely gone and [chuckles] self-funded into this, like, perfume brand.
Um- You know what? Who knows where g- we're gonna be in 10 years. Right, exactly. Follow your bliss. Like, I could be house poor or fragrance rich, and I chose fragrance rich. So- That's beautiful.
Thank you for that, Matt... I, uh... Right. So I, you know, bought all of these essential oils from Italy in the pandemic. I was like, "Oh, this looks like a reputable company."
It was, like, recommended on some Reddit thread probably. And I bought a, like, all of this wax. I was gonna make candles. I was gonna, like, create scents for the home, cozy up my atmosphere, and then it...
Making candles is really hard. Like, it's like making perfume plus the added step of, like, putting it into wax and making it somehow come through. Like, it's really difficult. Is it easy to, like- I believe you.
I would never even attempt that... to like... Can you, like, kind of cook the scent out with the hot wax or something?
No, because certain, uh, aroma chemicals have, like, a certain amount of throw, essentially, in, like, candle terms.
So that's kind of why any citrus candle you find smells like cleaner, you know, 'cause there's no real natural citrus smells that, like, project that well. Yeah.
Um, the evaporation curve on a lot of citrus materials is, like, really... Would it be high? Low? I don't know. Mm-hmm. Anyway, they evaporate quickly. So, like, all to say, I was making candles. It was
ridiculously difficult. They all smelled horrible. I had bo- like, a giant box of wax. I was like, "Why did I buy this?" And, um, I...
A friend of mine, Maxwell of UFO Parfum, who's a friend of Dirt as well, um- Big friend of Dirt. Yeah.
They were like, "Why don't you just skip the wax and add ethanol, and, like, wham, bam, thank you, ma'am, you've got a perfume?" And I was like, "Really? Is it that easy?"
I mean, in theory, yes, but, like, yeah, it, it took me about a year to create something that wasn't complete garbage. [laughs] And I don't know if, like- Only a year? I... Well, yeah.
Maybe that is a short amount of time. But I think, like, for anyone doing a hobby, like-Maybe in a week you figure out how to play, like, a good song on the guitar. Well, I guess- Or like-...
the question there, like, besides it taking a year, is like how much... I don't know if you, like, have a dollar amount, but, like, how much of, like, you know, these materials are you using to, like, get good?
How many, how many [laughs] terrible vials have you made or whatever? Ooh. Oh, yeah. Terrible vial is a great name for something. Right. I have, like, a whole drawer full of
sample, you know, formulations that are just probably never gonna see the light of day. You should sell people- Dollar amount... like a $10 mystery box of unwearables. Like- [laughs]... I feel like people would buy it.
[laughs] They'd buy it, but they would be like, "What the hell is this?" It would dilute the brand. [laughs] Yeah. Unfortunately, yes.
Um, [tsks] but in terms of dollar amount, I definitely spent, like, a couple thousand. Mm-hmm.
I don't think you need to to get into perfume, but I think because the perfume industry is so arcane and, like, Byzantine, you kind of do have to trial and error your way into knowing what's going on.
Like, the info is not readily available. You can't really go to the library and get, like, Perfume for Dummies, and- Mm-hmm... maybe that does exist, but the information that is available publicly and online,
there's a wealth of it, but it's not all accurate.
So, like, you're kind of s- wading through this, like, minefield of information, which is how so many people end up, like, well, either frustrated and broke, which is probably the most likely, or, you know, you're kind of creating in a way that's not
good, I would say. Do you know what I mean? I, I read, um...
Last night when I was preparing for this, I read an article, I think, in Highsnobiety about you and a few other, like, self-taught and independent perfumers, um, that was talking about, like, how it...
What used to be so, like, basically impossible, you had to get, like, a chemistry, chemistry degree, et cetera, but now you're, you're kind of referring to some of the information that's out there on like Reddit and YouTube.
Now it's much easier, and there was, like... I mean, I didn't, I didn't know of most of these people, but like, wow, there's so many.
There's, like, a, I mean, half a dozen people kind of semi-profiled in that article who are teaching themself, and how it's, like, becoming easier.
But then another thing was, like, you have this mentor that was the mentor to another person I think mentioned in the article, too. Um, I guess what I'm asking is, like, is it... Like, what's, like...
Is it just that, like, now this information is out there, so it's like you can go look up the things, and then, you know, put in an order to Italy, and you're basically good to go?
And that, that just wasn't true as recently as, like, 10 years ago? Yeah.
Basically, all of the main fragrance and flavoring houses, which there are, like, I think five or six huge ones that make probably 99% of commercial fragrances.
And, you know, house cleaning and all the scented things you could ever come across, shampoos, conditioners, whatever, in your daily life are kind of created by these same five conglomerates. Like, I...
This is all, like, alleged or whatever, but I'm pretty sure they're kind of, like, cartel-run situations.
They have such a corner on the industry that all of the new scent molecules that are kind of invented or they come up with, they eventually just patent them so that nobody else can use them.
Um, which is to say there's, like, a lot of smells essentially that exist, um, that you or I cannot even work with because those materials are not available to us as, like, independent perfumers.
So even to use a lot of these, like, molecules or materials, you have to work at one of these places, and getting a job there is like winning the lottery, essentially. Yeah.
This is like, uh, w- I mean, Maine falls in this category, right? We, we've had guests before from Maine, and they do operate, like, across a lot of different chemical fields in this way. Yeah.
I'm not sure if it's, like, part of the whole cartel situation, but yes, I do think, like- I mean, regardless where you... in any situation where you have a small amount...
Like, publishing's the same way with the Big Five, where you have a small amount of players in a market. There is always going to be some sort of de facto price setting, even if they're not directly collaborating.
Mm-hmm. Right. But imagine those publishers were creating books, but as a writer, even if you knew how to make a book, you couldn't purchase, like, the ink you needed. Yeah, sorry. You can't use that word anymore.
[laughs] Right? Exactly. It's like- Yeah... it's so tricky to kind of figure out. Mm-hmm.
And I think a lot of people have illuminated the pathway, but for essentially centuries it was, like, French people who were passing it down from father to son, and there's still, like, the same dude works at Guerlain whose, like, grandfather founded it or whatever.
Mm-hmm. Do you know what I mean? Yeah. So, like... And then of course places like Chanel, for example, they bought out the entire, like, south of France that has all of the roses that are used in, like, Chanel perfume.
So if you wanted the, the rose centifolia or whatever that's grown in the south of France, you can't get it 'cause Chanel owns them all. You know what I mean? Mm-hmm.
So it's like not only do they own the materials themselves 'cause they're, like, patented and the molecules are only, you know, in their labs, but, like, some of the natural materials that you could only grow in this specific area are all bought out by these giant companies.
So it's like, okay, you know, isn't that cr- isn't that, like, crazy? It's possible. I don't know. I find it crazy.
It is crazy, and-I mean, one thing that we h- I think this has come up on this podcast before, but the whole world of Fragrantica.
I went to Fragrantica to see, you know, that people were sort of chatting about Serbia, which made me happy 'cause I do feel like there's a little bit... Y- you're sort of, like, anointed, right?
Once your perfume- You're listed as a nose now. Exactly. Right. Once your perfume's on there, it's like your- Legitimized... your book is on Goodreads, and then I went over- [laughs] Yeah...
I tabbed over to check on our friend at UFO Perfumes to see if anyone had added the Dirt collaboration, and they had. Uh, but there's no scent profile- Mm-hmm... and there's no reviews.
And the reason why there's no scent profile is because Maxwell will not reveal, even to me, what's in it, other than to say it's a lot of different musks, which means it smells different to everyone because our bodies have evolved to respond differently to different musks.
But every once in a while, I'll be walking through New York City, and I'll smell it, and I know that it's not Knop because there's so few bottles of it.
And for a while, I was like, "Oh, it must be because I have the o- the empty sample is in my wallet." Mm-hmm. So maybe it's when I'm pulling stuff out of my wallet, it's just sort of, like, flickering up. The flames.
But it's happened enough times where I'm like, "Did Maxwell trick me?" [laughs] "And is this actually a repackaging of something quite common, or is there something in here, like, totally unexpected?" Like,
I don't know, like deer pee or something. [laughs] And I love that I will never know, and I will never ask them because I respect them too much to ruin the mystery.
But I don't know, I- you just reminded me of it when you were speaking, like, um, about sort of, like, forbidden chemicals or patent chemicals. That there's, there's other
ways, I guess, that independent perfumers can respond with their own secrecy. Mm-hmm. And that actually makes me excited, um, because, like, Maxwell literally could have put, like, an Ariana Grande
elixir in their cloud perfume elixir, and I would genuinely never know. But I smell it sometimes in the wild, and I'm like, "That can't be this perfume, so what is it?" Right. And so I think especially if you are...
Like, Maxwell's a brilliant at sourcing very rare materials from, like, places that you wouldn't have never heard of. But for me, for example, so I create all the formulas myself.
All the materials that I purchase come from a bunch of different places. However, the actual formula gets compounded in a lab in California. Mm-hmm. And they only have access to the materials that they sell themselves.
Mm-hmm. So anything that I have used to create, like, something unique not using their stuff, I have to send them. So, like, the barrier to entry is just so high.
I could be compounding everything here myself in my studio, but that's just not realistic at, like, the amounts and volume I have to do.
So for example, say I'm creating, like, 500 bottles of one fragrance, but say there's, like,.003 grams of, you know, this one pyrazine material. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
So to purchase, like, the lowest amount of that material in a commercial sense would cost so much money that I would have so much of this material that it's just not cost-effective to do.
So I have to essentially outsource the compounding, which I think is good anyway 'cause it's, like, a real, you know, lab, and it's everything's safe and above board and whatever. Yeah. For sure.
But, like, you know- And you're not giving you and Daniel brain damage. [laughs] And yeah, exactly. Our, our health- Do you guys... Like, isn't there, like, a culture of bartering and trading?
I know you told me at one point when you were learning that you were in, like, a Slack or a Discord with a lot of independent perfumers, like, trading tips, evaluating some of this, like, info- Like a discord...
on Reddit and online. Yeah, so do you do trades with other perfumers for some of these more rare chemicals? I don't trade materials. Um, it's just, like, a hassle. I don't- Yeah... you know, want to, like, decant things.
But what I will trade and what is, I think, like, kind of an open secret, especially with dupe culture being what it is, you can take any perfume. It is not a copywritten trade. You cannot copyright a scent.
So I own nothing that I create. Wait, wait, wait. I You can't copyright a scent, but you're saying you, you can patent, like, the molecule. So you can't copyright the, the mixture, but you can copyright ingredients.
Correct. Okay. Yes. Mm-hmm. So, like,
any, any formula anywhere, you can pay for what's called a GCMS, which is, like, essentially a chemistry printout of all the materials that are detected by the gas chromatography machine.
That will give you a readout of what the formula is, which is how- This is like getting a DNA test for your dog. It's exactly like that. [laughs] Yes.
Um, so just as Barbara Streisand cloned all of her five dogs or whatever- Mm-hmm... you too can clone, like, the Tom Ford Ombré Leather whatever. So, like, all of these formulas,
if they have enough interest in, like, there being a clone of it, you can purchase the GCMS formulas of these to basically study, which I think has been very instrumental in learning. Mm-hmm.
You know, studying formulas of popular fragrances. Um, but you have to pay for them all 'cause it's just, like, independent labs that run these, you know, GCMS tests or whatever. Um, so I will trade those.
Like, if somebody else is like, "Hey, I've got, you know, Prada-... Luna Rossa, do you want to trade for, like, Versace Eros or whatever? Both fragrances I don't really care about, but do you know what I mean?
It's like, oh yeah, I want to know how that is formulated. Trade recipes. Like, how did they get... How did Jazz Club get that, like, boozy cigarette note? Or like- Mm... how did...
And then you can look through these, and oftentimes what is revealed is that, like, the thing that everyone talks about in that certain fragrance is actually not there at all. Like- Mm. Mm...
everyone's like, "Oh, I love the, you know, the smoky note in this thing," or like, "The saffron is coming through so clearly." It's like, there's not a single note of saffron in here. [laughs] You know?
There's not a natural material within 100 yards of this fragrance. Mm-hmm. So, like, that's been interesting. Well, it's like a painter who's, like, known for their purple but only ever used red and blue, right? Yeah.
And never u- like, purple paint or, you know, using two colors next to each other that produce the effect of a third color.
Um- Yeah, and- and that's even kind of more interesting is like, I don't personally care that there's no, you know, natural saffron material, but how they figured out how to get that to come through- Mm...
using anything else is like, what? That's magic. Wait. Okay. Speaking of color, tell us about the choice of kelly green as the, the brand color for Sous Vide. So essentially,
I was very interested in class dynamics and power, and the very, like, upstairs downstairs thing of it all. So, like, I am a sucker for Brideshead Revisited, that whole, like, Downton Abbey-esque world.
Um, and baize, which is this, like, woven fabric that is, was used on pool tables. Now it's mostly felt. But it was also used
on, like, the doors of these kind of grand country mansions, especially in England.
It was a, a fabric that was, like, soundproof essentially, so it would soundproof your living quarters from, like, the servants' quarters, for example.
So the doors would have green baize on the one side, um, to kind of, like, muffle your, you know, rich whispers from the- [laughs]... servants below. Um, and so I kind of was inspired by that
and chose it as a color for my brand. Um, yeah. A quick... Wait, a quick aside. Um, have either of you see... Did either, did either of you see The Brutalist? Sure did. Yes.
So I saw it two weeks ago, and at intermission, um, there was this older couple s- sat next to us, and, uh, she, she turns to us, the, the woman in the couple, and is like, "Don't you think, like, the landscapes are just like the kelly green?
It's like it's too... It's not realistic. It's, it's insisting on itself. It's so, like, me, me, me. Pick me." Um, which I thought was so funny, 'cause I thought the landscapes were beautiful, and I thought the...
I, I mean, I thought it was... I was, like, in awe the whole time. I loved, I loved it.
Um, uh [laughs] but I, I don't, I was thinking of that when I was, like, you know, preparing for this last night, uh, and just that was the last time and first time in a long time I had thought of kelly green, but in that context.
Like, I'd been thinking of it as this thing that is so, like, rich and luxurious and dreamy in a way that does make sense for, for a scent brand, which is, like, about...
It's about romance and, like, the storytelling of it all. Um, which... Uh, go ahead. I just wonder if the absence of the green in certain scenes makes it look more stark, 'cause I've been thinking- Mm...
about this with Severance. Severance is all subdued- I'm so tired of Severance, by the way. The se- it sucks. Okay. We can do a segment- [laughs]... upset about that. [laughs] People are also tired of White Lotus.
I'm like- Okay. Well, White Lotus is good, but- Okay. Is this the prestige TV backlash? Um- [laughs] We're talking about The Brutalist, and we're also actually not talking about- Severance is by design-...
The Brutalist talking about Sous Vide... all green and blues, so when there is a red object or red lighting, it kind of comes in so heavy-handed. But- Mm-hmm...
is it heavy-handed, or is it just the contrast between the other things that you've seen up until that point? I guess there's probably a scent equivalent for this effect too.
Well, also, isn't that the point of brutalist architecture generally? Like, it's so- Mm-hmm... bleak and stark- Yeah... that, like, every other building is like, "Oh, dang. This is bad and sad." Well, and that's...
And it's, it... There's all those photos of, like, like, the Barbican in London, which is so beautiful because of this.
There's all this greenery and gardens around it, and, like, they pair so well, which is the point I made to this woman too. I was like... I brought up the Barbican.
I was like, "No, I mean, the point is the kelly green and the gr- the concrete, like, look so wonderful together and, like, serve each other so well." Um- And concrete absorbs light- Yeah...
basically instead of reflecting it, so it's always going to offset the other objects around it differently. Mm-hmm.
Well, this is, you know, funny that you had such a, like, illuminating conversation about this with your fellow cinema patron, but I was seeing it, and people next to me were googling, "What is brutalism?"
So- That was happening behind me, yeah... like, different. Oh, yeah. [laughs] It takes all types. Right.
Well, I mean, I don't want to, uh, you know, pull, make this, like, a family affair, but, uh, Trey's partner Daniel works at Mubi, and Daniel and Dirt have worked together in that regard.
So, you know, wherever you're going, you're, you're often with a cinephile as well. So I'm sure that also impacts- Right. [laughs]... your experience. [laughs] Um- Yeah, I often see films that are not often viewed.
I'm in rooms with a lot of rare types, I would say. Mm-hmm. I went to a good... I went to Anthology Film Center for the first time- Ooh, yeah... in Buffalo.
It was the Volker Springle, or Volker Springer, I forget, retrospective. Mm. This actor who worked with Rainer Werner Fassbinder a lot. Um, I watched this movie Satan's Brew, which is like... It was, it was really good.
Definitely, definitely a sparse crowd and a bunch of weirdos, but it was kind of like... It was, it was quite funny. Mm.
I think it was, like, from 1973 or so, but it's basically about this character who is this writer, and it starts with him at his publisher's office, like- Mm... pounding on the door, like-"Where's my advance?
Give me more money." Like, "It's not been enough. I'm out of money." And then the movie is, like, him on this rampage of, you know, artistic debauchery or whatever, and people worshiping him.
And crucially, him not writing, him not actually doing the work and writing the book that he's been given the advance for already. Um, I, I guess I'm gonna spoil it here.
It, it kind of wraps up where, like, he, he finally is out of money. There's nobody left to scam. He's scammed his, his parents who he hasn't seen in years and who are, like, scared of...
He scammed everybody, and finally there's nowhere left to turn, so he writes the book so he can actually get the rest of his advance. Um, but I recommend the movie even though I just spoiled it.
Sometimes you just have to do what you say you're gonna do. You have to steal. You're right. [laughs] Um, oh- Are you good? Well, I was gonna ask about, um, Serviat's Instagram is...
It's a lot of, like, I feel like when you market perfume, you sort of market everything but perfume because what you're really marketing is an aspiration and a lifestyle.
You can't really show it to people because there's no way to convey that. And I thought about the same thing, um, when I was, like, applying for my job at HODINKEE, which is, like, a watch magazine and retailer.
I didn't know a lot about watches, but I think in the interview I went on this, like, long monologue, like, trying to convey, like, why I understood watch culture because although you can show the watch, um, you can't really market the watch as essential because it's a completely inessential object.
So there is a marketing problem with watches just as there is with, like, perfume of, like, how do you make the case?
And in order to make the case, you sort of do fall back on this, like, showing everything but the watch thing, where you're really selling a lifestyle.
So I went on this, like, monologue about, like, the man at the bar, and everyone wants to be the man at the bar. Like, you g- you see this guy, he's alone on a business trip.
He's totally at ease by himself, like, blazer on the back of the chair, you know, perfectly selected whiskey. And everyone looks at him, and he, they wanna be him, and, like, that's the man at the bar.
And when you're selling someone a watch, you don't say, like, "Buy this Rolex." You say, like, "If you buy this Rolex, you will be the man at the bar." And so
I feel like you've taken a similar approach with curated, um, visuals on Serviat's Instagram. Um, but despite that, there is- Well, and your own Instagram, which is this site- And-...
that's just, like, this deep archive from 2017... Trey never posts photos of himself, yes. I, I scrolled the entire Instagram trying to see if you'd ever... I went all the way back to 2017. Not a single shred of- Okay...
of, of you. We do appreciate your due diligence, though. That's- But he is in it because you curated that. Well, yeah. Yeah, that's, that's the point. It's all him. The red thread. Yeah.
[laughs] I mean, but despite this, there is this culture of blind buys. I guess I'm asking two questions.
Like, part of it is, like, selling a lifestyle and an aspiration because you can't just reach through the screen and hand somebody a sample.
And also, like, despite that, there is this, a little bit of, like, a pride and the hubris of making, like, an audacious blind buy, um, 'cause people are gonna buy things they haven't had a chance to smell. Mm.
And I'm sure that creates a whole other set of issues for, like, consumer brands that are constantly dealing with returns.
But I don't know, there's something a little bit magical about that in 2025 where everyone's trying to have experiences that can be like- You can't return a perfume... you know exactly what you're getting.
Like, I'm gonna go to Via Carota, and I'm gonna order the exact thing that I saw recommended on TikTok, and, like, I know exactly how it's gonna be. Well, yeah.
I think this is obviously a subject that you have spoken a lot about, you know, through the newsletter and personally for quite a few years now, which I have also been- Are you sick of me yet? No, no, no.
But I, I think that we are in such an extreme version of capitalist culture right now where...
And I don't blame anyone, but, like, every influencer is only trying to sell you something to continue to do whatever their passion is. Mm.
So even if you follow something, somebody because of their, their taste, or their looks, or what they are purchasing, the signals they're showing you, um, it's all kind of this, like, weird false, you know, sensibility in a sense.
Like, I think that we've kind of become immune to people recommending things, and I don't...
What I was trying to do or what I am trying to do through my brand is kind of, like, reintroduce the idea of having good taste, um, by being more curious about things. Mm.
I think that, like, there's been, and I said this at my event, like, this kind of mass extinction level event of, like, the death of good taste essentially, um, where, you know, everyone's resorting to these micro trends online.
We are all, like, signaling the purchases we make. And I think especially in the past, like, two years or so, nobody shares, nobody shares anything anymore.
And by that I mean, like, even five years ago if I went to Via Carota and I had a good pasta dish, hard grid post, you know? [laughs] If I was reading, like, a really amazing book, like, that's five Instagram stories.
[laughs] Nowadays, like, only, you only share your own content. You're the only person that's excited about your own stuff going on. Mm. And nobody's, like, here to kind of celebrate you.
So who is that person you're kind of showing to the world is, like, my question. Um, and so I don't know. There's all this, like, buzzy world-building, brands need to be worlds now.
Like, we all have to create members clubs, and we all have to, you know, subscribe to, like, the world. The Real Real has the Real Girl Substack now that you have to subscribe to and read her musings. Like-What?
You know, I think we're just in this weird zone where I'm trying to, like, again, through the power of brand, the brand is storyteller, tell you that we need to get back to, like,
finding your own personality without watching TikToks about how to find your own personality. Well, okay. So- No, that's so true.
[laughs] You had a number of great, um, lines on taste, kind of on the website, in the logo, et cetera. I wrote, I wrote them down, but there's one I wanted to read.
You say, "We believe taste is about perception, not possession." Um, which I thought was really interesting. You're kind of touching on it there. Say more about the relationship between perception and possession. So I
lightly got into, because I am taking my own advice as well here, but I lightly got into Pierre Bourdieu's theory of cultural capital, and he is this French s- sociologist who talks a lot about, like, you can use your cultural knowledge and what you know to move through the world and into spaces that maybe you don't belong.
So versus signaling that I deserve to be here or I have value because I, like, have financial wealth or I know the right people, is superseded by the cultural knowledge that you have.
So, like, by you going to the Anthology Film Archives, I can be like, "Oh, that's sick.
I interviewed Jonas Mekas once, who was, like, one of the founding members of it, and he, you know, is, like, the godfather of, like, independence." Like, you know, these are the things that I think make us interesting.
I, I actually did an interview, um, with Stillman, who was the director of Metropolitan, among other amazing films, um, [smacks lips] Barcelona.
And he said to me something that, like, I maybe even misinterpreted but sticks with me. You know when someone, like, says something and you're like, "Wow, that's so profound," and they were like- Mm-hmm...
"Oh, it was an offhand comment." Mm-hmm. Um, but he said something about, like, all we are is, like, what we consume essentially. Like, you are just a, a facsimile... Not a facsimile.
You are, like, the amalgamation of everything that you consume. Mm. So essentially you are- You're what you eat... your taste. Right. You are, you are your own taste essentially. So, like, unless...
And so it's, yeah, to me it's like who, who are you? You are the things that you are passionate about.
You are the things that you are in, you know, in curi- like, curious to learn about, and I want that to sort of come through in what I'm presenting.
The, uh, Real Real Substack thing kind of reminds me of, like, when Urban Outfitters and Anthropologie had their, like, four consumer proxies.
There was, like, four women and they were using, like, real women's names, and they were supposed to represent the consumer proxy for a certain type of woman. So had their...
They had their hippie woman, they had their preppy woman. Could not tell you the names of these women, yet I could still quote pretty much- [laughs]...
bar for bar the Julian Casablancas tweet about liking everything in Urban Outfitters.
[laughs] And I think that just, like, goes to show, like, you can fabricate a relationship with, uh, your consumer, but ultimately, like, it's the relationship between me and Julian Casablancas that will be my lasting image of, like, what Urban Outfitters meant in, like, 2016.
And furthermore, like, I do wanna say, like, millennials were shit on for a long time. You do a lot of Gen Z marketing. Gen Z kinda gets shit on, and now Gen Alpha.
I think Gen Z and Gen Alpha realize that taste is important, but they're trying to, like, reinvent it from first principles.
[laughs] So I saw this, like, excerpt today on Twitter that was like, Gen Z just, like, reinvented bars. I saw this. And it was like- Yes. [laughs]... some being like- I saw [laughs]...
"I just wish there's somewhere I could, like, go with my friends to have a drink" And it's like, there is. There is. Right.
And so they're trying to speed run taste, but what taste is, it's, it's spending a year to make perfume, which probably felt like a long time to you or to learn how to make it.
But, like, in the grand scheme of things, if you're going to make perfume for the rest of your life- Yeah... taking a year to develop your skill and taste is actually quite a short time. Yeah.
And they think that they can do it by, like, subscribing to a Substack that's gonna send them links, and it's like, that's part of it. But, like, you've just created another algorithm for yourself.
This thing, this thing was actually so shallow too. She was writing about how like, "Oh, we should have a bar where you can just have... Uh, uh, not a bar. A third place where you can have a glass of wine and ice cream."
A third place. Yeah. And she was referencing a place in London that then I read the comments, and she'd actually never been there, and it's apparently just another TikTok trap place- Of course... with a long-ass line.
So she's inventing it, but she's never even experienced it. Oh, like the potato place. It's all abstracted. They have a place that just gives out baked potatoes. Hell yeah. We, uh, this came up- Potatoes are the best...
on our most recent episode. Have you heard of the laundrette? That sounds familiar, but- So this is, like, my current obsession I'm probably thinking of French Laundry actually. No.
[laughs] So this, like, TikTok couple in Brooklyn, I think- Oh, I know what this is... uh, started a laundromat. They started a laundromat, but it's like chic, and they put- Mm...
couches in it, and they serve, like, I think coffee or whatever. [sighs] And all these, you know, Instagram reels and TikToks are like, "The laundrette is disrupting laundry service." You know, you... It's a...
creating a place that you can go and hang out with your friends while doing your laundry with organic, like, detergents. And, and it's like this girl, and you know, God bless her, I, I wanna visit to be honest.
I wanna have a party there. Yeah. [laughs] But, like, she's put- Serve it at Launchpad-... a laundromat together... laundrette. That would make a lot of sense for you. Yeah. Right.
Like, like, Gen Z, you know, creating things from first principles, like, very much like, "I'm starting a, a business that is the oldest thing in the world- [laughs]...
but I'm gonna disrupt everything by doing it, because, like, there's a couch in there." Yeah. Look, I mean, if I was 22 and living in Williamsburg, I would absolutely go there, but I would, like, hate myself for it.
Right. And also the first time they get bedbugs, it's all gonna be over. [laughs] Like, the illusion is gonna be shattered because clothes...
People's dirty clothes are fucking disgusting, and you can't sanitize that, and you cannot completely sanitize the experience. Right. So you might as well do wash and fold with the rest of the real New Yorkers. Mm-hmm.
Yeah.The fact that, like, the laundrette is probably killing the, you know, Chinatown laundry business is just another, you know- I don't think that they can.
[laughs] Like, because the other thing about convenience is, like, for a neighborhood, sure, that's an amenity, but how far would you travel to do your laundry there? Right. I don't travel... Like, I... In...
I think there's three laundromats within a block and a half of me at least. Like, why would I, why would I skip all three of those to go even one block further, right? Mm-hmm.
Like, why would I humiliate, have the humiliation of, like, carrying my laundry that far? Right. Like, you're gonna take a Lyft with your laundry bag- Yeah. [laughs]... to the laundrette to do your laundry. Someone has.
And then take a Lyft home. Someone's doing that right now. Yeah, and, like, they're gonna crash out and have to move back to Durham in, like, 12 months. [laughs] Mm-hmm. It's like,
s- life in New York is a marathon, not a sprint. Are you, are you, like, a wine person? I was wondering this because of the nose of it all. Oh, the terroir. Because some of the humor.
Um, I did watch that incredible Apple TV show about wine. What's it called? I don't know, but I did watch Sideways for the first time this week. Drops of God.
So it was, like, based on this anime, and it's, like, a live action thing, and it's about this, like... What do they call a s- like, not a sommelier, but what are they called? The people who- Yeah.
The people who, like- Vintner? A vintner? Yeah. Maybe, yeah. [laughs] Um, incredible show. But yeah, I- Apologies to the vintners listening to this. Yeah. I, I don't know that I'm a wine person. I like wine. Mm-hmm.
I just... It doesn't do what you might think it does. Yeah. Well, I'm, like, manifesting a cool wine collaboration for you, some nice pairings between your perfumes and the wines.
I would definitely pay for that experience. Well, yeah, that's the thing is, like, obviously Serviette means napkin- Mm-hmm... in French. So- Obviously... just the... Obviously. I mean, obviously.
I, I'm Canadian, so- We went over that in the intro. Don't worry. Yeah. I, I, you know, grew up saying, like, serviette or... I don't know, my grandparents said, like, Chesterfield meaning couch. Mm. Um- What?
That's a, that's a thing? Are you Canadian? Yeah. As- Maybe that's a Canadian thing. I think it's a Canadian thing. But, um, either way, I, I think that the brand is rife for, like, extension- Mm-hmm...
into dinner service, into, like... I don't know, just all this, like- We're gonna extend it to the Dirtyverse. We just haven't nailed it exactly yet. Right. Exactly. There's, like, a lot of, lot of legs, as they say.
Mm-hmm. Mm. Um, I'm, I'm still, I'm still a little bit thinking about the online shopping aspect of it all- Mm-hmm, mm-hmm... because I haven't smelled any, I have not sampled any of your four perfumes.
Um, and last night as I was, like, looking at the Instagram and looking at the Fragrantica, uh, and, like, trying to, you know, imagine the smells and, uh...
I'm not, I'm not as, I'm not a sophisticated nose, you know, so I don't necessarily know how to compose all those notes, um, in my mind.
Um, but I am addicted to online shopping, and I was thinking, I've never, I've never bought a perfume without smelling it in person.
Like, to me, that's something that is so in person, and I've been trying to shop for clothes in person more too.
And I think for so lo- Like, when I was in college and I was living in Portland, Oregon, and there's, like, one shop there that I liked, but I was also broke, so I would have to buy everything, like, on sale or on eBay online, and now I can, like, afford to buy a piece of clothing in person, so I go do that.
But, uh, rambling a little bit here.
I think, like, going back to the experience of, like, shopping for perfume online and, like, building up this fantasy and, like, looking at the Kelly Green and looking at the, the, you know, the font and, like, the videos.
And the very beautiful bottle with the asymmetrical cap. Yeah, and, like, con- convincing myself I can smell it and then, you know, maybe, maybe I'll, maybe I'll click buy, but really I'm gonna...
I live in New York, so I'll go to the places that stock it. Um, I don't know. I was wondering if you have bought many perfumes sight unseen, either of you, on the internet. Um, I don't recommend it. I think, like...
I used to live across the street from Bloomingdale's kind of as I was developing this brand. Mm. So I would go there, like, almost every day and just smell my way around the perfume counters- Mm...
seeing the fragrances that, like, I liked, that were selling well, whatever. It was very much this, like, kind of cheesy market research phase that, um, you know, I could, like,
make into some fabulous story, but it was truly just me shopping. Um, but online, I just purchase a lot of samples. I have, like, hundreds of perfume samples. Mm-hmm.
And I think, like, if you get to the bottom of your sample, it's worth a buy. Mm-hmm. There's lots that just, like, you spray it twice and you're like, "That is not for me." Mm-hmm.
And very much, I think, like, in trying to create a brand that does have this kind of universe around it in some sense, it is really hard to communicate that digitally only. Mm.
Like, perfume is kind of one of the last bastions of things you can, like, experience only in real life in that very moment.
It's not something, as much as I can describe it to you, that, you know, I can send through the screen or whatever. So as much as I kind of hate
this phenomenon of people describing scents in this, like, literary, poetic, Fragrantica-coded detail, it, it really does work.
Like, people respond to-The, the light kiss of like a airy breeze of the raspberry as it floats on the basket of bubble. Mm-hmm. Like, to me, that's just so, you know, cringe. But- Mm-hmm...
I was, I was going back and forth over how I wanted to write about my scents, like the copy itself. Um, and I was like, I'm just gonna list 10 things that each of these fragrances is inspired by.
So like the Martin Margiela SS90 show, like Fourierists, like, you know, all of these kind of random things, and it was just not hitting. I was like,
I'm laying bare kind of the references behind these to maybe have people, like, resonate with them. But at the end of the day, you're like, "Okay, what does that smell like?" You know? Mm-hmm.
It smells like an airy breeze with a light raspberry note- [laughs]... that dries down into... You know? So like,
I think that's sort of the only kind of weapon we have, but I'm sure this has been discussed too at some point, like, there aren't really very many words in the English language that are genuinely about
smell and describing smell. Yeah. It's such a- I was gonna ask, like, how your background in editorial helps with that because you are working with- within a limited, like,
group of phrases, but in a way that you're very advantaged because you spent so long working at magazines where, like, selling aspiration is the core mission. Right. And getting it across in, like, 15 words or fewer.
Mm-hmm. Um, but my hot take is like you think you know what sandalwood smells like. You're a huge sandalwood fan. You have no idea what sandalwood smells like. Mm-hmm.
There's like five different, you know, aroma chemicals that are- [laughs]... you know, sandalwood or sandalwood adjacent. And so I just think it's funny 'cause, like, when I say, "Oh, this is like,
you know, Egyptian geranium," that's like, that might mean something to you if you're maybe from Egypt or, like, grow geranium.
But otherwise, like, you know, there's geranium from other countries as well that has, like, different nuances to it. And even if you've smelled geranium, it's like, would you be able to pick that out of something?
I'm not sure. I took a, you know, I spent over a good year learning how just, like, my materials, I did these blind smell tests and kind of figured out, like, how these things go together.
You know, a rose has like 100 different components of different materials that you can, like, pick apart essentially. So there's, like, the clove spicy aspect part of it. There's, like, the deep jammy part of it.
There's, like, the bright floral part of it that's like linalool and, like, geraniol and all these other kind of chemicals.
So I think that, like, it's funny to me when people are like, "Oh my God, I, I love orange blossom."
Like- Well, this to me, this to me is like, um, I don't know, like, I think of being a kid and reading a book and discovering, like, so many new words that I didn't, I didn't know the meaning of, but I, you know, you kind of intuit the meaning, uh, based on the context clues, and et cetera.
And I think, like, when you said Egyptian geranium, I, I, I, I smelled something. You know, I don't know if it was, if [laughs] it was the same thing you would've- Oh, yeah... smelled. But it's like, you know, you,
you fill in the gaps, right? It's like when you have a blind spot in your eye and, like, you kind of fill in the gaps. I don't know. Right.
And so I think my point is, like, especially when you're online shopping, that copy is meant to be evocative. Mm-hmm. Yeah. But I'm selling you essentially a fantasy.
Like, there is a 2% population that, like, actually knows what exactly I'm describing, and even so, like, people have described Frisson Du Vert, which to me is like a very solar floral, kind of like, you know, a, a, a lily of the valley kind of popping out of the snow.
People on Fragrantica are like, "Oh, this is a great sunscreen scent." And I'm like, "Okay." What? [laughs] "Not me for sunscreen," but there's no wrong answers.
So you have to smell this in person and, like, try it on your skin and wear it out and see what your own interpretations are.
Because, like, the one thing I've learned in doing this is the, the thing that I tell you you're smelling is what you're smelling. Like, I'll ask my boyfriend like, "Oh, what do you smell?"
And he's like, "Oh, it's spicy. It's this, it's that." And I'm like, "Is it lily of the valley?" And he's like, "Yes, I smell that." And I'm like, "It's a psychological thing," you know?
This is like me when I'm at dinner with my friend who's a sommelier. Like, and I am like, "That is... That this does taste like I'm laying on- Yeah... a hot stone with- [laughs]... a peach in my mouth.
This it tastes exactly like that. [laughs] Right. I, um- I mean, I get vanilla, powder, and something green.
Yeah, because, you know, I think to whatever degree you've trained your nose or worn enough perfume in your life to, like, recognize certain things, I do believe people who love sandalwood actually do love sandalwood and know, you know, to some extent what it smells like.
But the majority of people, you know, they might smell a fruity note, but they wouldn't know it's, like, raspberry, right? Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. It could be a strawberry. It could be, like, a blueberry. I... Go ahead.
I was gonna say, like, what we talked about buying in person, like, tell us or tell the audience where they can sample your perfumes in person right now.
So they are exclusively stocked at Stelle, which is in both Nolita and Williamsburg in Manhattan. Um, I will be hopefully expanding to other retailers soon, uh, so stay tuned for that.
But overall- I heard you sold out and h- they had to refresh their stock. Yeah, they sold out of discovery sets, so we did a restock, which is really exciting.
I'm just, like, kind of shocked at the reaction so far, I guess. I, I had no idea what to expect. Like- Mm-hmm... I, yeah.
Do you think you had a lot of these, these kind of, uh, smell unsmelled, as it were, online sales too?Like on the strength of the brand and the fantasy? Oh, absolutely.
Like, I, yeah, I'm doing- I mean, anyone who bought a bottle that doesn't live in New York, that's has to be a blind buy. Yeah. It's actually really it- easy for you to quantify right now, right? Right, it is.
And it's, like, crazy because I have people buying from, like, New Hampshire and, like, Utah and stuff. Mm-hmm. And I'm like, "How did you hear of this?" You know? What does it smell like in Utah? Right. [laughs] Yeah.
So that, that is wild to me. Like, I haven't gotten past that. It's very exciting, uh, that
whether or not they continue to be, like, a fan of the brand, there is some piece of Serviette in the world that, like, somebody was interested in. So- Yeah. I've heard people express this sentiment before.
Like, when you have a creative project, it's so hard to step outside of it and see, like, really what you've accomplished.
Like, I would love Dirt's audience to, like, grow and grow, but you could already fill a stadium with the number of people that subscribe to Dirt. Mm-hmm.
And it's like, oh, you know, you've created something that people find worth paying for, engaging with, thinking about, like, no matter what scale that's at.
Like, as soon as you're beyond, like, 100 people, and I would say even 100 people is impressive depending on what you're making, like, that's incredible. Like, and it's... Also, it's never your friends and family.
Everyone says that too. Right. Like- You're right... it's not, you expect it- They're not gonna buy shit... to be your friends or family. They don't necessarily know how to, to value it, so these are strangers.
These are people you've never met before in your life, and they are bringing into their home and putting on their body something that you formulated, like, in your house. Like, wow. Like- Yeah...
that's why I think more people who start their own thing need to give themselves a pat on the back. And I'm not talking about drop shipping. I mean, like- [laughs]... really creating something that reflects your taste.
It's- Yeah... an amazing accomplishment. Mm-hmm.
The thing that I have talked to a couple people about is, like, my previous career in journalism, where the entire goal essentially was to write things that would connect with readers, you know, hopefully influence their taste or whatever, cultural decisions that way.
And in my, you know, mind's eye as, like, a burgeoning writer, I was like, "I'm gonna get showered with praise. I'm gonna get emails from people who are like, 'I read your article. I ran to the cinema,'" or whatever.
[laughs] Absolutely never happened. And so now that I have, like, a physical product that I'm sending out to people, the response is, like, night and day, where people- Yeah... are, like, in my DMs.
Like, somebody messaged me this morning who's from, like, Trinidad or something, and he was like, "Even though I can't smell it, I... Like, your s- brand is so cool to me," blah, blah, blah.
And that, I was like, this is what it... My s- 'cause I used to interview actors all the time. Mm-hmm. And I'd be like, "Your movie's out. That must feel so amazing," you know?
And they'd be like, "Yeah, it's pretty cool." And I was like, what is it about? Like, what is it that I'm missing here? And I think I finally kind of understand now that, like,
when you have all of these people telling you how good something is, like, it's such a different feeling versus just doing it and kind of hoping that it's connecting with someone. Mm-hmm. So yeah. I don't know.
It's, in that sense, I'm just, like, very proud of myself that people are responding at all. I think that's a perfect place to end it. We're proud of you too. Thank you.
[laughs] I'm very proud of you, and I will be representing Serviette proudly. Amazing. Love it. Thank you for coming on. See you- See you next week... you all next week.
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