WEBVTT 1 00:00:00.100 --> 00:00:17.099 [upbeat music] Welcome back to Tasteland. I'm your co-host, Francis Zehrer. And I'm Daisy Alioto. And who are we talking to today, Daisy? Today we're talking to Nika Semovic Fischer. 2 00:00:17.160 --> 00:00:31.760 She's a writer, design strategist, and educator based in New York. She's currently a tenure-track assistant professor of communication design at Parsons School of Design, and she also is a journalist and a writer. 3 00:00:31.860 --> 00:00:39.960 She's written for Dirt, and we worked on something really cool together that's going to be coming out next week, so we're excited to tell you about it. 4 00:00:40.360 --> 00:00:52.920 I have no idea what it is, um, similar to the, to the listener, so I'm [laughs] excited to hear about it. Um- The ideal proxy audience... while we wait for her to get here, uh, I did just get back from Berlin. 5 00:00:52.940 --> 00:01:05.970 My, my annual trip to Berlin last night. JFK was terrible, the worst airport in the tri-state area. I don't know if it's the worst in the tri-state, definitely the worst in the city. Mm. Um, but I had a great time. 6 00:01:07.160 --> 00:01:17.840 Yeah, I'm sorry. I do not envy you. Was it hot in there? It was hot. It was hot, and we, we had to wait to get off because the police had to come on first before anyone could get off. I think a guy... 7 00:01:18.080 --> 00:01:26.660 All they said was a guy was not following the rules. By the looks of him, I think he was vaping. Um, but then it was like- I mean, handle that in the tunnel, dude. Like- [laughs] I know. 8 00:01:26.720 --> 00:01:34.140 I mean, it's like a seven-hour flight... where is he gonna go? Uh, what... I, actually, uh- No, I mean, like, if the police have to talk to him, talk to him in the tunnel- Oh, talk to him in the tunnel... 9 00:01:34.160 --> 00:01:41.100 not just like- Yeah... where is he gonna go on the runway? But they had to, like, come on first to pull him o- But the other thing, I don't understand why he doesn't just Zin. Yeah, that's crazy. I don't know. 10 00:01:41.520 --> 00:01:49.700 Um, but yeah, it w- anyways, it was hellish, but I had a good time in Berlin. Um, for our fragrance heads out there- [laughs]... we can have a little mini fragrance segment. 11 00:01:49.820 --> 00:01:55.550 I did go to my favorite perfume store in Berlin, Bree. This is where you got the Tomato Note perfume last year. 12 00:01:55.550 --> 00:02:05.120 Yes, and we, we s- [laughs] we smelled, like, everything they had, and I ended up getting something from the same brand, Min New York. Okay. Yeah. This is the place where they spray onto glass, and you smell the glass. 13 00:02:05.160 --> 00:02:13.940 Onto glass, yes. Yeah. Did you see my Instagram story? Maybe, maybe you did, maybe you didn't. Like, weirdly, no. But yeah. But I- It's like-... don't watch a lot of Instagram stories. Oh, that's okay. 14 00:02:13.980 --> 00:02:24.400 Well, it's like a- Not in, like, a ha ha way. I think I just, like... I don't know. Anyways, it's like these, these, these glass rods that they... I think there's like... He probably sprays it into... 15 00:02:24.430 --> 00:02:32.660 Like, they go into these metal canisters. He probably sprays it in there, and there's, like, some kind of, like, absorbent thing at the end of it- Mm-hmm... that leaves the smell in it. 16 00:02:32.680 --> 00:02:44.000 Anyways, I got, uh, Dune Road, [smacks lips] um, which is a- That sounds epic... it's, it's epic. It's a marine scent. I'll read you the copy- Yes... from their website very quickly. 17 00:02:44.180 --> 00:02:55.390 Hit me with the, hit me with the notes. Summer walks, crisp ocean breeze, foamy sand, whispers of herbs, wildflowers, and seagrass from a distance. Uh, top: absinthe, cardamom, and ozone. 18 00:02:56.000 --> 00:03:07.920 Heart: marine, salt, seagrass, seaweed, and driftwood. Base... Now, I don't know how to pronounce this word. Vetiver? Vetiver? Oh, vetiver, yeah. Vetiver, okay. Cedarwood and musk. 19 00:03:08.500 --> 00:03:19.250 Um, when you first spray it on, it's really like a, like a cucumber or like a melon. Mm, mm, mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. It's really nice. That sounds great. When you said Dune, I was thinking the franchise- [laughs]... 20 00:03:19.260 --> 00:03:30.040 but this is way more up my alley. Mm. I will say- That top note's spice... I've been sort of, like... [laughs] I've been sort of sensitive to ozone scents- Huh... recently, but hopefully- Well, I don't even... 21 00:03:30.060 --> 00:03:42.980 Myself, I don't even really know what that means. Um, ozone is, like, what you smell on concrete after it rains. Oh, I do like that. It's like... Yeah. There was one, there was one scent called Tears on Asphalt. 22 00:03:43.200 --> 00:03:48.990 It was really bitter. I didn't really like it. I think the problem is that, like, to get an ozone scent, it's very synthetic. Mm. 23 00:03:49.100 --> 00:04:01.510 And I think the more synthetic a scent is, the more likely, for me at least, that I'm, like, sensitive to it. Yeah. But- No sul- You like no sulfites in your- I guess, I don't know... natural scents. I don't know. 24 00:04:01.540 --> 00:04:08.720 Well, I am driving back up to Maine today, [laughs] speaking of- Oh... dunes, yeah. Speaking of, uh, of, [laughs] of marine scents. 25 00:04:08.820 --> 00:04:18.200 My friend Caroline from college, she lives in Chicago, and she messaged me a few months ago and was like, "Hey, I have a conference at Bowdoin. I'm flying into New York." Mm. "I would love to see you in New York." 26 00:04:18.230 --> 00:04:26.880 And I was like, "Well, I'll do you one better." I'll drive you up. "I will drive you up." Oh, there you go. Um, [smacks lips] so I'm picking her up in New Paltz and then driving her... 27 00:04:27.290 --> 00:04:33.580 She, she's gonna stay with me tonight- Mm... and then I'm gonna bring her to campus for her conference. What's her name? Wait, was it Caroline or Katherine? Caroline [laughs] with a K. 28 00:04:33.720 --> 00:04:44.200 Caroline from college sounds like some, like, indie band, like Bandcamp album, uh, from, like, 2011. I know, and, like, we've both, like... I haven't seen her in a while. 29 00:04:44.260 --> 00:04:54.420 We've both, like, had a ton of changes in our lives. She got married. Like, she's also not in our group chat because she has an Android, and so, like- [exhales sharply]... Caroline's always, like... 30 00:04:54.580 --> 00:05:04.100 What Caroline's doing is, like, always, like, sort of a mystery. It's kind of chic. It's very chic, and, like, I get to have, like, the full car download, so I'm really looking forward to it. Mm-hmm. 31 00:05:04.180 --> 00:05:15.000 A li- [laughs] Get to have a live podcast. It's also gonna be, like, less hot in, um- Thank God... Park Slope, so I'm excited about that. I- it's fucking brutal rolling into- Yeah... New York. 32 00:05:15.080 --> 00:05:24.200 Um, anyways, Nika- Did you vote for mayor? I did vote for mayor, uh, early... Actually, yeah, I, I voted, uh, like, a week ago, right before I left. Yeah. 33 00:05:24.240 --> 00:05:33.880 I went to do early voting, but I had to do an affidavit because I had requested a mail-in ballot, like, two-plus weeks before. Mm. It never came, and I checked just today. 34 00:05:33.980 --> 00:05:50.930 Today is Tuesday, the final day of voting, and it still never came, so like- Wow. Yeah. Uh, anyways, let's let Nika in and chat with her. [upbeat music] I can't vote in New York, to be clear. Yeah. 35 00:05:50.940 --> 00:05:54.290 I live in Westchester, so- Mm. Uh, but- But you are gonna do some voting in Prague... 36 00:05:54.290 --> 00:06:05.021 oh, yeah, my old classmate, Zohran Mamdani, um, is, uh, maybe gonna win it all, so-I do feel very invested in the outcome- Yeah, we'll see it... for multiple reasons. 37 00:06:05.072 --> 00:06:17.082 It does seem like no matter what happens, it seems like him and Cuomo are both gonna run anyways, just on whatever other lines. Yes, but I do think the outcome of today will determine how- We'll know... 38 00:06:17.102 --> 00:06:27.312 strong of a position that is. Yeah. Yeah. It'll be interesting to see too, just 'cause their campaigns are so different. Like, Andrew Cuomo just doesn't really have one in a lot of ways. 39 00:06:27.352 --> 00:06:38.392 Like, he's running on his name and his familiarity, and I think, um, Zoran's really, um, killing it with media, and- Mm-hmm... um, just having, you know, even like walking across New York City- That was insane... 40 00:06:38.492 --> 00:06:45.512 becoming v- that was insane, right? Uh, so he's much more visible and trying, so I think it's, like, very opposite approaches. Mm-hmm. Curious to see what happens. 41 00:06:45.572 --> 00:06:49.632 I will say, I mean, I, I checked my mail today for after getting... 42 00:06:49.692 --> 00:07:06.072 after being gone for a week, and there was like fi- like there was a couple, like, local Ridgewood campaign mailers, but then there was like six, five or six just anti-Zoran ones with the thing, like, paid for by, what are his, by the top three donors it lists. 43 00:07:06.092 --> 00:07:19.132 By DoorDash. [laughs] Greenberg, DoorDash, and Bill Ackman. [laughs] Mm-hmm. I mean, uh, it's interesting. I, also from a design perspective, the campaign's choices I think are very cool. And- Mm... 44 00:07:19.232 --> 00:07:23.892 um, Sean Monahan, who we should have on the pod at some point- Yeah... writes a newsletter called 8 Ball. 45 00:07:24.522 --> 00:07:33.892 Um, he wrote one about yellow fonts and yellow fonts being everywhere, and this was an example, and sort of like, okay, is this like the new brat green? The, this yellow- Mm... gold font. 46 00:07:34.032 --> 00:07:44.172 I guess it's almost like marigold colored, um, that has already- It is... become so recognizable. And also, like, using- It's kind of Mets coded too. Yeah. 47 00:07:44.212 --> 00:07:55.172 And the design conventions of, like, WhatsApp stickers, playing around with those. I fi- I thought that's really interesting. And yesterday I saw in, um, Frances, you know her better than me, but Rachel Carton- Mm... 48 00:07:55.182 --> 00:08:05.032 in her newsletter was talking about the, the production studio that works with a lot of these progressive candidates on their videos. Mm. Like, the one, like, uh, the, the... 49 00:08:05.752 --> 00:08:12.942 Yeah, like the one of walking down the city overnight- Yeah... and- What is it called, like, Butter something? What's it, what are they called? Mm. It's Anthony Demieri- Yes... 50 00:08:12.952 --> 00:08:22.052 is one of the gentlemen who's involved with it, and I think he also does those, um, like, subway takes. Have you seen those videos? He does. There's with Kareem. Yeah, yeah. Works with- Yeah... works with Ari, uh, Daisy. 51 00:08:22.132 --> 00:08:36.132 I, we met him at, uh, at the Air Series B party. He was there. Ari is our next guest. Mm-hmm. The, uh, the Tasteland extended universe [laughs] is curling back on itself. Mm-hmm. Do you know him, Nika? Yeah, yeah. 52 00:08:36.192 --> 00:08:37.492 I've met Anthony once. 53 00:08:37.712 --> 00:08:48.332 Um, but I, I read that interview too, and I thought it was interesting how he was saying how, um, before people come in with, like, a script, and he really encourages them not to use it and to improvise. 54 00:08:48.772 --> 00:08:58.232 I think, I don't know, I think there's something about that that plays out in design at large. Mm. Like, things sort of feeling natural versus forced or, um, I don't know. Yeah. It's interesting thinking about... 55 00:08:58.532 --> 00:09:05.012 Go ahead. Yeah. Well, like, the big thing that stood out to me too was one of the partners says, like, 56 00:09:06.572 --> 00:09:15.872 it's better to have people around the candidate who are literate in memes and sort of microtrends rather than for the candidate to try to participate in them, because that's cringe. 57 00:09:15.982 --> 00:09:27.042 And it's like, that's so true, and you can really see the difference in Zoran's campaign with that. At the same time, like, you have, like, people like JD Vance becoming so millennial coded- Mm... 58 00:09:27.072 --> 00:09:37.202 because he constantly tries to participate himself, and people really rejecting that. Um- Melted Solids, by the way, real quick. That's the name of the, of the group. Butter- Melted Solids... 59 00:09:37.252 --> 00:09:43.992 is a melted solid, so I really can see where that came from. Where that came from. [laughs] Like, it's a really interesting... 60 00:09:44.192 --> 00:09:56.121 JD rants this morning being like, "Do you think any VPs had to deal with, like- That was insane... what I deal with? Like, emoji, like, LOL cow?" And it's like, well, yes, we do, 'cause Dick Cheney was president, so. 61 00:09:56.121 --> 00:10:04.492 [laughs] Or the, uh, the other thing, the other thing- We all saw vice... whereas, like, the difference this time is that our other presidents were dumb, and this one isn't. That's... 62 00:10:05.572 --> 00:10:13.272 I'm still not convinced that's real, but- I didn't watch the clip to be honest. Um- I didn't. I didn't watch it... what is real, I spent a really long time last night. 63 00:10:13.292 --> 00:10:26.212 So we, like, as, as you know, like Nika, we have this new site Clone, and we, we sort of messed up. Like, we, we put this Forbes article up that was, like, not well-sourced, and it was like, Forbes used to be reliable. 64 00:10:26.252 --> 00:10:34.172 Mm. Now they do a lot of SEO bait, and it was about a- Mm... a leaked password hack. And somebody emailed us and was like, "Hey, this doesn't seem legit." 65 00:10:34.212 --> 00:10:44.222 And I sort of at the time was like, "I should check this," and then I got busy with something else. And so it was actually, like, a, it was a learning le- it was a learning lesson. It was a- [laughs]... 66 00:10:44.252 --> 00:10:53.652 a good moment for us to be like, "Hey, guys, like, we should, like, be better about this. Um, to the extent that we have an editorial process, we shouldn't be aggregating stuff that's, like, bait." 67 00:10:54.252 --> 00:11:09.462 [lips smack] But when I saw last night that there was, like, this Norwegian article, um, about a guy who got turned away at the border 'cause they searched his phone and he had, like, a chubby JD Vance meme on there, I was like, I spent, like, a really long time trying to make sure it was legit, because the actual- Mm... 68 00:11:09.482 --> 00:11:14.852 Norwegian article was, like, paywalled. So I was like- Mm-hmm... is this the Norwegian equivalent of The Onion? 69 00:11:14.952 --> 00:11:21.212 And it's, it took, like, kind of a long time for me to figure it out, but I was like, "I'm not falling for this again." That's the value you get at Clone- It d-... like The Onion. [laughs] Yeah. 70 00:11:21.252 --> 00:11:32.812 I mean, like, I mean, I come out of traditional news, so if there's a failure in the process, like, I blame myself, because Boys Club, they're, they have, like, great backgrounds for what we're doing, but they don't come out of a traditional newsroom. 71 00:11:33.312 --> 00:11:46.572 Mm. And I was like, "Yes, it is. It does seem to be legit." If I find out today it's not, then I will apologize publicly. But, um, yeah, I don't know where I was going with this other than to say, like, that's crazy. 72 00:11:46.731 --> 00:11:55.582 [laughs] Twitter, that Twitter is real life. Well, I think it also has to do with, like, the design of things and how, um, just everything is hard to discern sometimes. 73 00:11:55.612 --> 00:12:06.468 And I think, um, maybe it's kind of how we were talking about believability with, um, the campaigns, and I was thinking about Kamala's too. Like, she definitely picked up that brat-... 74 00:12:06.518 --> 00:12:17.368 you know, motif from a pop star that was somebody else's design language. And so I'm wondering where it fits into this, like in terms of you were saying that JD Vance sort of is trying to speak to this, 75 00:12:18.408 --> 00:12:25.818 um, audience, but kind of signing on and Zoran has people doing it for him. So I don't know where that fits into the story. Yeah. You know? 76 00:12:25.828 --> 00:12:36.348 And it's not that it doesn't just age you generationally, but it also sort of ages you in the news cycle. Yeah. And I think, like, good communication and design should be timeless. 77 00:12:37.028 --> 00:12:47.648 And even though, like, the internet moves at the speed of the internet, obviously, like, people are learning that actually there's something about participation in these micro trends that really degrades your message. 78 00:12:48.468 --> 00:12:59.798 Mm-hmm. It's like a stand-in for having the actual message. Like, I'm reminded of some TikTok that I saw getting, like, retweeted a lot on Twitter last week of these two girls- A TikTok on Twitter? 79 00:12:59.908 --> 00:13:10.038 Whoever heard of such a thing? A TikTok on Twitter. [laughs] But it was of these two girls, uh, like doing... The audio track was, um, Zoran at the debate when he was saying like, "Because I am not you, Mr. 80 00:13:10.308 --> 00:13:12.258 Cuomo," and you know- Oh, my God... spelling out his name and stuff. 81 00:13:12.848 --> 00:13:23.718 Um, and I just saw like a few different retweets making the point, like when you have a message that people want to be associated with, you get all this free media, when you sort of become the meme- Mm-hmm... 82 00:13:23.748 --> 00:13:35.498 but not in like a derisive way or like a, a, a dilutive way, but like more of j- just actual good earned media, um, because it's cool and because people wanna be associated. And then they had... 83 00:13:35.528 --> 00:13:49.368 They were wearing the hats, the blue hats with the orange writing and such. Mm-hmm. Okay, Nika- I saw... true or false, you recently won one of, uh, a piece of jewelry from Ota- Otessa Moshfeg's, uh- Oh, yeah... auction. 84 00:13:49.548 --> 00:13:58.548 [laughs] Uh-huh. [laughs] I did. Are you wearing it right now? What's the coverage of this auction? [laughs] The auction was really cool. I'm not wearing it right now. I've worn it on my... 85 00:13:58.578 --> 00:14:10.108 I wore it on my birthday, which is the day after I obtained this piece of jewelry. [laughs] Mm-hmm. And I think maybe I wore it once after that. Um, but no, it was hosted by Substack, and it was at Golden Unicorn. 86 00:14:10.388 --> 00:14:18.168 Um, have you been there? It's like a Chinese restaurant. I have, yeah. Wasn't it, um, Eddie Huang, he was part of this auction too? Yeah, he was. Yeah. It was... 87 00:14:18.248 --> 00:14:28.568 You know, I had never really thought that I'd wanna go to an auction, [laughs] but my friend invited me, and it was the day before my birthday, and I kind of like to not make any plans for my birthday, so I was like, "This is perfect." 88 00:14:28.628 --> 00:14:39.958 [laughs] That's true. It was. And, um, they had, like, a real auctioneer, like from Christie's. Um, he was very enthusiastic. And then they were, like, selling off all these different things. 89 00:14:40.008 --> 00:14:49.888 Like, the jewelry was actually the most practical and, like, the least expensive thing. Mm-hmm. So I feel lucky about that win. [laughs] But, like, um, they were selling, like, a used toothbrush that went for like $200. 90 00:14:50.088 --> 00:14:57.548 Like- Really? That's so crazy. [laughs] You could frame that, I guess. That's something to Sydney Sweeney's bathwater. You could definitely frame it. God. Yeah, it's the same vibe. 91 00:14:58.028 --> 00:15:06.097 Or, like, unlicensed therapy with Eddie Huang- [laughs]... went up for, like, I think 1,000 or something. It was insane. Well, that's worth it. Mm-hmm. Yeah. [laughs] I think he could really fix my life. 92 00:15:06.097 --> 00:15:15.688 He can give you some hard truths. [laughs] Um, I... Well, okay, speaking of hard truths, that was actually a good transition. I'm proud of this one. Um- [laughs] 93 00:15:16.588 --> 00:15:29.408 You have a new piece in a magazine called Hardpack that I'd never actually heard of before, and you're tying, like, a lot of ideas from the zeitgeist together. Can you sort of explain this piece or the genesis of it? 94 00:15:30.408 --> 00:15:42.407 Yeah, sure. So Hardpack is a magazine about skiing. Mm-hmm. Um, but it's not really about skiing, it's about ski and things that are adjacent to it. Okay. And- So strong. Strong is not actually about tennis. 95 00:15:43.308 --> 00:15:51.888 [laughs] Yeah, you're right. And I don't know if you had, um... Do you remember Wax magazine by any chance? Oh, yeah. It, it was, like, 10 years ago. 96 00:15:52.328 --> 00:16:01.068 But it was, um, it was kind of a similar vibe, where it was about s- um, surfing- Mm-hmm... but it was really about, like, art surfing and people in big cities that like to surf. 97 00:16:01.208 --> 00:16:11.228 But it was also very beautifully produced. Um, but anyway, so Hardpack is similar in that vein, where it's, like, about one thing, but it's kind of about these, like, tangential interests. 98 00:16:12.108 --> 00:16:24.748 And I wrote a piece called Melting Legacies, and it's about the overlooked ties between a ski lodge, independent publishing, and the art of book design. [laughs] But, um, I don't know. So it was, um... 99 00:16:24.868 --> 00:16:36.418 Zach Seeley is really incredible, and he's the editor. He invited me to write about this, and he was interested in, um, Alvin Lustig, um, who was, like, this, like, famous mid-century, like, book designer. 100 00:16:37.368 --> 00:16:47.308 And he was interested in, like, the overlaps between, like, mid-century book design and skiing because, I learned this when I was doing this, but skiing is also sort of like a, a mid-century hobby. 101 00:16:47.408 --> 00:16:55.608 It was, you know, kind of used in wartime before, but not really. It's, like, a leisurely hobby in the- It wasn't? Wait. I, I had no idea. [laughs] It wasn't really much of a hobby. 102 00:16:55.648 --> 00:17:03.948 It was just, like, a way of getting around- Yeah... for troops? [laughs] Yeah, exactly. I, I don't wanna divert too much, but I- [laughs]... heard, like, a crazy, um... 103 00:17:04.468 --> 00:17:14.268 This is, like, a family friend's family story about- So it's hearsay, huh? It's hear- Yeah. This is, like... I, I'm two degrees removed. [laughs] But I, I always, I always, like, 104 00:17:15.228 --> 00:17:29.988 kept it with me in case I end up in this exact situation. Um, but somebody in the family was Norwegian. Mm-hmm. They were part of the resistance- Hmm... during World War II. They're getting chased on, like... 105 00:17:30.808 --> 00:17:38.488 chased through the woods by a Nazi soldier. Both of them are on skis. What's it called when you're flat skiing? It's s- Cross-country skiing. Cross-country, yeah. 106 00:17:38.788 --> 00:17:45.848 [laughs] Cross-country skiing through the woods, and he's, like, ahead, but he's like, "I don't know how long I can stay ahead." 107 00:17:45.888 --> 00:18:00.728 So what he does is he gets ahead enough that he's out of this Nazi soldier's visibility, turns around, drops, waits for the Nazi to come, shoots. Scores. S- scores. Scores. [laughs] Yeah. 108 00:18:00.768 --> 00:18:09.068 So it's like, I was like, oh yeah, like that's, like, that is what you should do. Like, if you, if you're- Mm-hmm... outrunning somebody and you don't know if you can outrun them, just, like- Hmm... 109 00:18:09.108 --> 00:18:13.572 pull a reverse Yahtzee.Anyway, um- Reverse Yahtzee. [laughs] So but I could understand... 110 00:18:13.692 --> 00:18:22.312 Here's the thing, I could understand why somebody in that scenario or friends with people in that scenario might not like, after the war be like, "You know what would be so relaxing?" 111 00:18:22.712 --> 00:18:35.312 [laughs] "You know what would be so relaxing, you guys?" Okay, wait. But back to the- Um, let's go to the mountains. [laughs] Back to the original. [laughs] Where were we? Oh, no, it's true. 112 00:18:35.372 --> 00:18:44.981 It's kind of interesting to think about the origins of, of things, and sometimes things are more recent than you had anticipated. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Um, but that's a cool family lore moment. Myself, I think I can ski. 113 00:18:44.981 --> 00:18:55.252 Somebody's gonna write in and be like, "Daisy, that's from a Chee- Cheever story." And I'm gonna be, "Shut up." [laughs] This wa- it was told to me. Um, so okay, so what tell... 114 00:18:55.392 --> 00:19:04.902 Okay, what's the connection th- to the- Yes... publishing through one particular lodge? Yeah. Yeah, so it's through, um, Atlas, uh, Alta Ski Resort- Mm... 115 00:19:04.902 --> 00:19:19.272 um, which is in Utah, and it's, like, currently the biggest, um, you know, place that you can go skiing. And, um, it was f- funded by, uh, James Laughlin, who's, like, uh, who started New Directions, um, 116 00:19:20.492 --> 00:19:30.892 it's just, like, a famous publishing house. It's still around. And, um, he really funded this, like, avant-garde publishing practice through, um, like, the ski resort. 117 00:19:30.932 --> 00:19:45.012 And so it was, like, kind of embedded together that he had this, like, adjacent, you know, passion in skiing, but then also was, like, really interested in kind of bringing together this, like, contemporary form of prose that was different at the time. 118 00:19:45.252 --> 00:19:56.632 Um, and then he met all these friends who were kind of going through similar transitions. Like, um, he would bring in, like, uh, Nabokov, Vladimir Nabokov to the ski resort, who also had a side hobby. 119 00:19:56.732 --> 00:20:05.212 He was, like, really into moths. Um, [laughs] yeah, like, that, that was, like, his adjacent interest, and he came to this ski resort in search of a very specific moth. 120 00:20:06.092 --> 00:20:15.042 And during this time there, he, like, decided he was going to abandon his previous name and go by Nabokov, and that's, like, you know, where, you know, it became... He became more famous for it. 121 00:20:15.912 --> 00:20:23.352 And then, um, you know, the New Directions, uh, publishing, it was, um... it started off as this kind of experimental thing. 122 00:20:23.772 --> 00:20:30.112 But then when Alvin Lustig, who also became friends, um, with James Laughlin, they started working together. 123 00:20:30.172 --> 00:20:39.401 He turned the books into these, like, really memorable mid-century kind of graphic things that really kind of worked as packaging. 124 00:20:39.492 --> 00:20:47.072 And, um, then, you know, they started taking the books from the backs of bookstores and putting them up front, and they started turning over, and they just were much more commercially successful. 125 00:20:47.932 --> 00:21:00.982 And I think he's sort of credited as being this amazing designer for this achievement, but actually, I think it's sort of the wrong way of framing it, because it kind of puts, uh, the impetus on, like, a hero, um, for solving this. 126 00:21:01.012 --> 00:21:14.492 And, and rather, you know, his wife was helping him, too, and I think it's more about how design can be used to distribute information, um, and makes it more accessible to people rather than being, you know, a work of art per se that's very honest. 127 00:21:14.852 --> 00:21:23.242 Um, but that being said, the ski resort was also kind of going through the same change. And so, like I said, you know, when, um, James Laughlin got it, it was... there was only... 128 00:21:23.312 --> 00:21:31.752 I don't, I don't think there were any, um, like, ski lifts or anything like that. And then over time it became more popular. People kept coming. There were lots of tourists, and it became, like, less wild. 129 00:21:32.672 --> 00:21:46.812 So I guess in short, like, my story is about, um, how things get remembered and, you know, what would happen if you were remembered for something that you were actually passionate about quietly rather than, you know, the thing that becomes more successful, and if one is more honest than the other. 130 00:21:47.332 --> 00:21:58.652 Yeah. Mm. Right. Then we would think of Nabokov as somebody who was famous for moths. [laughs] Yeah. [laughs] Isn't that funny? It's really funny. [laughs] It's fascinating. I, I need to read this full piece now. 131 00:21:58.972 --> 00:22:06.862 Um- [laughs]... it definitely, like, sparked my interest when I saw the description. It was. It was, yeah. I was like, "How's she gonna pull her, this off? How's she gonna weave all three-" [laughs] "... 132 00:22:06.862 --> 00:22:13.452 of these things together?" But of course, you did. Um, and it was... I was thinking about the first piece 133 00:22:14.432 --> 00:22:26.852 that you told me about that you'd worked on, um, when we first were getting to know each other, which is, um, a piece about the digitization of the Serbian Cyrillic alphabet during the Yugoslav Wars. 134 00:22:27.112 --> 00:22:37.712 Um, it's always stayed with me, because I just didn't know anything about this topic, and I remember... I think I remember your post about 135 00:22:38.832 --> 00:22:49.632 buying the necklace on your, on your birthday or, like, the day before your birthday, because you and I are the, like, the exact same age. Like, I was also- Right... born in 1991, but you were born in Belgrade. 136 00:22:49.652 --> 00:23:06.762 It was all the way across the world. Um, so I'm curious, like, A, just how this story came together, 'cause it continues to feel very relevant to cultures in conflict and potentially lo- losing pieces of their history 137 00:23:07.912 --> 00:23:21.992 to the internet, but also having the opportunity to preserve on the internet at the same time. Um, and also, like, your own personal history and, like, your relationship with the language. Sure. 138 00:23:22.632 --> 00:23:33.432 Uh, yeah, it's a really interesting question, and thanks for remembering that and, and reading it. Um, so you're right, yeah, I was born in 1991, and I was born in Belgrade, and at that time it was still Yugoslavia. 139 00:23:34.152 --> 00:23:43.652 And that particular year was interesting, because I think two big things were happening. You know, like, um, the country was star- in, in a war, so it's falling apart. 140 00:23:43.772 --> 00:23:55.892 Um, the Soviet Union collapsed recently, and also the internet was starting to take, uh, take form and become more widespread. And, um, I think growing up, I always spoke Serbian at home. 141 00:23:55.932 --> 00:24:03.332 And I, I grew up in California, by the way. So my family moved away from Yugoslavia in, uh, like 1992. 142 00:24:03.352 --> 00:24:16.142 And so I really grew up in California, and so I was always hearing about Yugoslavia, and I had this culture of Serbian at home. Um, and I was always translating one language from to the next. And, um, and it... 143 00:24:16.152 --> 00:24:29.876 and so we kind of preserved the culture within our household. But-I was very much like American and, and, you know, grew up in, in the suburbs in California and then St. Louis, and California again. And I, um, 144 00:24:31.226 --> 00:24:48.216 I th- I wrote this piece when I was in grad school actually, and I was looking at how, um, type has data embedded into it, and I was really interested in looking at old type files that you can't access anymore, and I was curious if you could load them up or what they looked like. 145 00:24:48.276 --> 00:24:54.965 And that was mildly interesting. [laughs] Like, actually it's just not... It's just like these old like file formats that aren't super useful. 146 00:24:55.816 --> 00:25:04.556 But it made me think about type in general and letter forms that I'm familiar with, um, and w- where... if there's like a presence about them online at all. 147 00:25:05.336 --> 00:25:18.576 And so Serbia is pretty interesting because it is always been bi-scriptal, so they use both like the Latin text and then also the Serbian Cyrillic alphabet, which is not the Russian Cyrillic alphabet, it's like slightly different. 148 00:25:18.616 --> 00:25:27.086 [laughs] Um, and so I was curious, you know, what... Like, were people still using the Cyrillic alphabet? Why you don't see it online anymore? 149 00:25:27.836 --> 00:25:44.436 And a lot of it has to do with just like the, what I was saying earlier, like the time that this country was falling apart, you know, the West was really pushing forward the internet, and so a lot of standards, um, about online communication are, are built in English primarily or optimized for the English language. 150 00:25:45.316 --> 00:25:51.056 And so to use alphabets in Serbia it was, um, a lot of hacking. Um, 151 00:25:52.096 --> 00:26:05.016 I interviewed this woman, Olivera Srdanovic, and she was responsible for creating YuTimes, which was like this edit of Times New Roman [laughs] to have like some of the Serbian characters that you could use. 152 00:26:05.236 --> 00:26:18.476 And then when I interviewed her she told me she was really embarrassed about this actually because, um, it was like adopting a Serbian hat almost on or a style onto like somebody else's Western typeface. 153 00:26:18.496 --> 00:26:27.916 And so it really inspired her to create all of her own typefaces that were like homegrown specifically for the Serbian alphabet that had both the Cyrillic and the Latin text. 154 00:26:28.656 --> 00:26:39.756 And, um, also like during that time in the early, or in the '90s and so forth, you had to use special character encoding to get these letters to appear. 155 00:26:39.876 --> 00:26:50.256 And so it was really a big hack because like people were distributing like YuTimes on like USB drives or whatever, and then if you didn't have it you would have like brackets in place of the correct letters. 156 00:26:50.305 --> 00:26:53.376 So the language just really wasn't supported on the internet. Hmm. 157 00:26:53.656 --> 00:27:02.996 And yeah, I mean, like, you know, I would go back to Serbia when I was growing up, and I think even when I was like a teenager we had, you know, internet all the time at home. 158 00:27:03.056 --> 00:27:12.006 I think at that point it was like using MySpace, but then you'd go there and you still had to like put the phone, you know, connect the phone to the computer to get it to work at my grandma's house or you'd go to internet cafes. 159 00:27:12.956 --> 00:27:22.336 So yeah, I think to answer your question, it's more a... It was very much personal and then sort of thinking about how my own history mirrors this, um, this difference. 160 00:27:22.376 --> 00:27:34.256 It's falling apart of a country and then also like kind of the layers of bias that prevent, you know, a national script being on the same level and continues to be sort of isolated because of, um, those changes. 161 00:27:34.376 --> 00:27:52.736 I think you and I both share a really big interest in this sort of tiny web, and you had one project that you had created like almost 10 years ago that you brought back recently called Wildflowers.garden. 162 00:27:53.976 --> 00:28:03.496 Yeah. Um, and you described it as, "There are many similarities between gardens and websites. They both evolve over time, and you can design them how you would like. 163 00:28:04.016 --> 00:28:15.296 Sometimes something unexpected happens, and the garden returns a different result than what you expected. Perhaps they can... Perhaps they both can encourage you to slow down and appreciate the change of the seasons." 164 00:28:16.016 --> 00:28:30.216 Um, I spent some time on the website yesterday, but I was wondering if you could explain what it is and what the inputs it, are and how you created it, 'cause I know some of it started off as drawings from your sketchbook. 165 00:28:31.276 --> 00:28:33.706 Yeah. Uh, thanks for, for looking at that. 166 00:28:34.796 --> 00:28:47.176 It is interesting how you can make something and put it online and then it sort of takes on a different life and you don't know always how it's going to react or how other people are gonna interact with it and how it starts to change meaning. 167 00:28:48.056 --> 00:29:01.576 But yeah, it's a project I made like winter break or something in, I don't know, like 2015, 2016. And I was just interested in experimenting with the web browser as a medium and, you know, I was... 168 00:29:01.616 --> 00:29:10.176 I think I was working at Kate Spade at the time as an in-house graphic designer. I was working in ad agencies. So I was doing a lot of work for other people and not so much for myself. 169 00:29:11.056 --> 00:29:24.136 And I, um, have always liked to draw, and at the time I was thinking about if there's a way of bringing in that warmth, um, that happens when you're, you're just like sketching and you have this like inherent brush stroke, if you will. 170 00:29:24.156 --> 00:29:33.496 And if it's possible to put that online and maintain a little bit of it. 'Cause I think oftentimes, especially at that time, it was like things are very geometric and flat online. Hmm. 171 00:29:34.516 --> 00:29:43.936 So, um, I scanned, um, my illustrations and... And I love scanners by the way. We used them for this Invisible Nightlife for the drawings on that too. 172 00:29:43.996 --> 00:29:51.756 [laughs] But anyway, um, and I've had my scanner since like 2012, 2011, so it's, it's, you know, strong piece of hardware. 173 00:29:51.836 --> 00:30:01.136 [laughs] But, um, anyway, so I scanned them and then I digitized them in Illustrator and I put all of the different flowers on different layers. 174 00:30:02.136 --> 00:30:15.336 And then, um, my business partner helped me code it at the time and we put it online and we... I've always been interested in like very small interactions and so parallax scrolling is like- Mm-hmm... 175 00:30:15.396 --> 00:30:21.376 in video games when someone looks like they're walking but it's like actually just the background moving or something. Mm-hmm. It's like that type of effect. 176 00:30:21.486 --> 00:30:35.220 And so that's exactly what's happening on this when you curs- or you move your cursor, um, all the different layers shift.And they're all paired with little quotes about gardening that could be interpreted as advice for, for life. 177 00:30:36.100 --> 00:30:44.980 And, and you know, I put it up and I forgot about it, to be honest. I just, you know, did it. But then over time I kept seeing it circulated, like it's been shared a bunch on Arena. 178 00:30:45.800 --> 00:30:53.360 Once someone from Australia reached out to me and they're like, "I'm visiting New York and I love this project. Can I meet you?" And that was very special. Wow. We got matcha. 179 00:30:53.490 --> 00:31:04.490 [laughs] And, um, yeah, and like then, then just, you know, 10... Like, I guess it's been 10 years since then, I got an email, um, from this publishing house in Austria, 180 00:31:05.400 --> 00:31:18.230 and they said they were working on this book for Zora Klipp, who is a German, um, uh, German c- uh, cook. And she wanted to use these illustrations on this, like, book that they're producing. That's so cool. And so cool. 181 00:31:18.240 --> 00:31:22.969 And like it just... And all this, um, happened during Venus retrograde, which I, I tend to care about. [laughs] Mm. 182 00:31:23.040 --> 00:31:29.640 So it really was, like, this creative project from the past coming back and, you know, it was really surprised by it. 183 00:31:29.670 --> 00:31:42.600 And so then I ended up re-releasing it as, like, a limited edition, uh, collection on a USB on Metalabel. Um, but yeah, very unexpected how things can kind of gain traction without your control really. 184 00:31:42.800 --> 00:31:54.940 It, it's interesting 'cause, like, at the beginning of this when you said how, like, a website is like a garden, I was thinking about how, uh, like at first it didn't make sense to me because a website, maybe you put it up and, like, things start to degrade. 185 00:31:54.980 --> 00:31:59.320 Maybe it was built in the era of Flash and then, you know- Mm-hmm... Flash disappears and, and things start to degrade. 186 00:31:59.370 --> 00:32:09.700 But then I'm thinking of the building next to me, they've been doing a gut renovation since like October. Who, who knows when it'll be done. Uh, but they totally razed the garden. Like, they just destroyed it. 187 00:32:09.780 --> 00:32:17.440 They dug everything up. It was so beautiful. There was like a grid of cement. There was a magnolia tree that was like 20 feet tall that they cut down for no reason. 188 00:32:17.880 --> 00:32:25.220 Um, and they like, you know, dug into all the garden and stuff. Um, and then it was just a patch of dirt. And this summer it just came back, right? 189 00:32:25.270 --> 00:32:33.540 And it's like, it's so lush now and there's all these bits of seeds that had been like buried down below and there's sunflowers, ferns, just so much stuff, right? 190 00:32:33.600 --> 00:32:40.140 Like, it's like, it's so persistent that they couldn't really destroy it. And to me that's... that was like the opposite of a website. 191 00:32:40.200 --> 00:33:01.680 But I guess the way then at the end, like, the way I see that a website is like a garden is more like it's not that like the website itself like propagates and changes in this like lush replicative way, but more like the way like the, the people interacting with it are in, in like in this garden that was, you know, they tried to destroy and it's just come back. 192 00:33:01.740 --> 00:33:11.960 It's more like the interactions people have with it are kind of the blooms in it maybe. Yeah. That is really beautiful. Um, and it's an interesting way of thinking about it. 193 00:33:12.020 --> 00:33:21.350 And that garden seems very persevering [laughs] in your example. But you know, I think about, um, when people die and what happens to their web pages. Mm. 194 00:33:21.670 --> 00:33:32.840 Um, unfortunately I had a mentor pass away, and he sort of kept his website up as sort of like a final piece of authorship, I'd say. And, you know, he was super careful. 195 00:33:32.900 --> 00:33:38.480 He removed his social media presence on Instagram, like LinkedIn, but he kept this one web page. 196 00:33:38.980 --> 00:33:49.440 And then it just, you know, I guess after the, the domain expired or whatever, it went down and then there's like a Russian casino now in its place. Oh, wow. And it's so sad. 197 00:33:49.540 --> 00:33:54.620 Um, but if you go to Wayback Machine you can still see these traces of, of him and if... 198 00:33:54.630 --> 00:34:05.670 It was registered under his name, so I imagine if somebody else has that name and they buy that domain, you know, they'd see that history. But, um, yeah. This, this reminds me too, I, I'm not on Facebook. 199 00:34:05.800 --> 00:34:18.120 I think I like haven't really logged onto Facebook regularly since like 2018 or something. But I remember- Mm... in college I was so fascinated with how people would like memorialize other people on Facebook. 200 00:34:18.200 --> 00:34:28.160 Mm-hmm, mm-hmm. And like the way that they would continue posting on their walls every birthday or like there would be these, these pages created, these like, I don't... You know, I, I guess you just call it a page. 201 00:34:28.320 --> 00:34:40.140 Um, I forget the Facebook nomenclature, for this person and how people would like leave memories there. And like, uh, I, I don't know. I, I'm sure that's still a thing there. And I guess I see it too like on Instagram. 202 00:34:40.520 --> 00:34:52.680 It is. I see it. My mom like somewhat unceremoniously gave me my, um, like grandmother, my family friend, Cheryl, we call her my grandmother, whose main house I, I live in part-time. Mm-hmm. Like she 203 00:34:53.860 --> 00:35:02.680 very unceremoniously, like before shutting down her phone plan, was like... And also by the way, like if you're somebody who has to handle somebody's estate, there are so many different things that you don't think about. 204 00:35:02.760 --> 00:35:12.660 But she was like, "Okay, here's her phone. Like you need to go into her Facebook and you need to basically like..." I don't know if she told me like, like, "You have to do it this way." Mm. But basically like... 205 00:35:13.620 --> 00:35:20.910 I can't remember if I posted as her or wrote a status on her wall basically saying like, "She's passed away. This is when the memorial is." Yeah. 206 00:35:20.920 --> 00:35:33.300 But then I was the one who like requested to take it over and turn it into a memorial page. Which is a thing you can do formally. They have a formal thing for that now. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah. There's a process for it. Um, 207 00:35:34.360 --> 00:35:47.660 but actually... Oh, my God. I think I blocked this out because it was really, you know, it was emotional. So you can do it, but you have to have their death notice. Wow. So I 208 00:35:48.620 --> 00:35:55.140 either wrote on her wall or wrote something as her, if I'm remembering correctly, and then my mom gave me her death notice. 209 00:35:55.540 --> 00:36:07.320 You have to take a picture of it and upload it to prove that you are close enough to this person to take over the page. Um, and so that's, that must be how we did it, but I didn't... 210 00:36:07.340 --> 00:36:10.540 Yeah, it took me a second to remember that 'cause I like completely blocked it out. 211 00:36:10.640 --> 00:36:20.260 Um, 'cause it was emotional and then getting messages from people who knew her that like didn't know was emotional and, um, yeah, it's, it's... 212 00:36:21.240 --> 00:36:27.380 I- There's been a lot of really great writing about the internet and grief- Mm-hmm... 213 00:36:27.400 --> 00:36:37.812 and how things are preserved, but also how they can degrade and that can become part of-The grieving process, but I feel like there's always so much more to say. 214 00:36:37.912 --> 00:36:44.272 Like, you- I never really get over it, and there's always new things that are, like- Always new platforms- Oh, that's horrible. Like-... that people are grieving on in different ways... 215 00:36:44.332 --> 00:36:53.952 my friend found out her friend died from a PartyFull update. Oh my God. Um- That's awful. Yeah. I think she's... Actually, I think she's written about it a little bit. 216 00:36:54.032 --> 00:37:04.402 So it was, it's Terry, and Terry, um, Terry was supposed to go to her friend's birthday party, and then for whatever reason, like, the friend who needed to announce it to everyone did it by, 217 00:37:05.452 --> 00:37:18.322 like, writing in the PartyFull update, like, "The party's canceled because this person- Jesus... passed away." And it's like- Oh... I, I don't know that that's a thing that should ever happen. Mm. Mm. 218 00:37:18.432 --> 00:37:33.282 Um, you know, like, w- when my friend Anthony died, um, my friend Becca, like, I remember this 'cause it was, like, such a really, like, kind and decent thing to do, texted me and was like, "Have you been online today?" 219 00:37:33.372 --> 00:37:45.812 basically, and I'm like, "No." Calls me and tells me over the phone. And there were people who knew Anthony that I also knew who I assumed already knew that ended up finding out 220 00:37:46.712 --> 00:37:59.732 from my posts, which I didn't do until I thought enough time had passed that, like, everyone must know. Mm-hmm. And so it's weird to be at, on any side of that. 221 00:38:00.432 --> 00:38:12.932 Um, and then our old boss didn't find out until I wrote about it in Dirt after the funeral. Um, and so he was like, "Wait, what?" And so then I end up mailing him 222 00:38:13.872 --> 00:38:22.512 the, one of the programs from the funeral 'cause I had taken extra. But you can see, like, it feels like there's a hierarchy here, right? 223 00:38:22.612 --> 00:38:32.352 Like, being able to tell somebody over the phone, being able to give somebody a physical program from the funeral feels very different- Mm-hmm... 224 00:38:32.382 --> 00:38:39.752 and more, I feel like, decent and, like, real than finding out from, like, an Instagram Story or finding out from a tweet. 225 00:38:40.632 --> 00:38:49.012 Um, but it doesn't really feel like we have a ton of control over that anymore, unless we decide to be, like, super intentional about it. Yeah, that is true. 226 00:38:49.092 --> 00:38:56.872 There is sort of a, a hierarchy of, of weight in terms of how you would find out and where the appropriate place is to announce these things. 227 00:38:57.472 --> 00:39:03.732 And it's interesting too, like, these big tech platforms, like, they want you to keep those profiles up endlessly. 228 00:39:03.772 --> 00:39:10.852 Like, unless, you know, you delete it on your own or somebody takes it over and, you know, I didn't know that you had to confirm with a death receipt. 229 00:39:10.912 --> 00:39:20.232 Like, that's also a weird way of bringing in something from the real world that's very, like, legal, but also emotional into this space. But that requires a lot of effort, you know? 230 00:39:20.532 --> 00:39:31.672 And so if you don't do it, it's just like these profiles stay online, and they're collecting information, um, without really any type of interception. Yeah. Well, actually, I've been 231 00:39:32.692 --> 00:39:42.352 thinking, percolating on a new braided essay, which is like, oh boy, she's at it again. [laughs] Um, so I, during, um, 232 00:39:43.372 --> 00:39:55.582 during COVID, after I got laid off from the New York Review of Books, I was freelancing and applying for stuff. I had, like, way too much time on my hands, as did we all. And I think, like, [laughs] 233 00:39:55.632 --> 00:39:59.862 I feel like most of us, like, don't really want to admit, like, what we were doing with that time or even remember. 234 00:40:00.512 --> 00:40:08.992 But I remember because I became obsessed, and I mean obsessed, with this unsolved mystery about this woman, Jennifer Fugate, who was found in... 235 00:40:09.232 --> 00:40:21.472 She was found dead, presumed suicide, in a locked, on-the-inside Oslo hotel room. And this was before, um, this case was on Netflix's Unsolved Mysteries, so there wasn't as much attention on it. 236 00:40:21.532 --> 00:40:28.092 It was just, like, a lot of Reddit threads. Mm. And what fascinated me about this is, like, it's one of the rare cases where, like, 237 00:40:29.032 --> 00:40:36.172 oftentimes, like, somebody is missing, and you have their identity, but you don't know where they are. 238 00:40:36.652 --> 00:40:51.522 Where in this case, like, there was a body, and there was, like, what she put to check into the hotel, but what isn't known is her real identity. So you had everything about her except her identity, down to, I think they 239 00:40:52.612 --> 00:41:04.912 have been able to sequence... Not sequence, sorry. They've been able to test her DNA to know where she's from, but for legal reasons can't go, like, upload it- You're saying to this day... to, like, a relative database. 240 00:41:05.152 --> 00:41:13.692 Yeah. Mm-hmm. So I get obsessed with it, and I have Google Doc upon Google Doc of dossiers of every angle of this. 241 00:41:14.392 --> 00:41:23.712 And I have spent so much time staring at photos of her body and her belongings, and I'm not usually a true crime person, but there was something about this that seemed, like, almost literary. 242 00:41:24.392 --> 00:41:37.772 You're on your true crime journey. And, um, yeah, exactly. Where am I going with this? Um, I don't, [laughs] I don't know. [laughs] Is it maybe about how her trace is online, like, kind of you start to- Mm... 243 00:41:37.852 --> 00:41:47.752 form an opinion about this person even though you don't know them, but there's enough information on? Yeah, I think it's something that you said about, like, the document, the legal documents, and, like- Yeah... 244 00:41:48.432 --> 00:42:00.072 how much work it is. Um, oh, 'cause when you said that, I was thinking about people who die, like, kind of isolated or after all their friends and family are dead, and, like, nobody does, nobody's going to do that work. 245 00:42:00.092 --> 00:42:10.952 And there's sort of, like, a category of person, like, in New York, a big city, or any big area that are sort of, like, just, like, unclaimed people, unclaimed estates. 246 00:42:11.672 --> 00:42:24.692 Um, but a lot of times, like, the identity is known, and so this is kind of a reverse of the traditional unknown mystery. And, um, yeah, like, I became obsessed with it. 247 00:42:24.732 --> 00:42:34.792 And so, I don't know, I've been thinking about it a lot in relation to, like, recognition. Like, what does it mean to be recognized or recognize somebody? Why did nobody recognize this woman? 248 00:42:34.852 --> 00:42:42.488 And, like, how much information could you have about someone and still, like, misunderstand them?Yeah. That's... 249 00:42:42.748 --> 00:42:54.448 I think that's really fascinating, and it reminds me also, this is sort of tangential, but you know, um, Luigi Mangione, like- Mm-hmm... his Goodreads became- Hmm... this, like, big topic of- Yeah... 250 00:42:54.488 --> 00:43:04.887 information for people, and people sort of, like, drawing all these conclusions. Like, I think he read, um, something about the bullet method, you know, for journaling, and people were saying, "Oh, he took it literally." 251 00:43:04.918 --> 00:43:11.848 [laughs] And like, I don't know. [laughs] It's... Which is inappropriate. [laughs] But, uh- It is what it is. But, but people get, like- [laughs] I think, um... 252 00:43:11.938 --> 00:43:14.068 And then, you know, he has all these people, like, reaching out to him. 253 00:43:14.088 --> 00:43:24.188 He became this, like, cult hero, but I think people were hungry to, like, find a piece of his, like, inner world and, and people can kind of project- Project... what they want based on the data that's floating around. 254 00:43:24.328 --> 00:43:29.217 Well, that's- Yeah... what I so often do on this podcast- [laughs]... or, like, on my other podcast, researching people. 255 00:43:29.308 --> 00:43:38.918 I've literally found people's Goodreads [laughs] to try to triangulate some sort of question I can ask them. Like, I- Guys, for the record, Nico's having a fridge cigarette during this podcast- [laughs]... 256 00:43:38.918 --> 00:43:46.338 which is, like- I know [laughs]... what the internet has been calling Coca-Cola for some reason. [laughs] Um- No, but I think... Well, I mean, it's like- Yeah... I think about, like, the like, right? 257 00:43:46.428 --> 00:43:54.608 Like, liking anything on social media, which is like... [sighs] I mean, now that likes aren't visible on Twitter, it's not really giving other people information about, about you. 258 00:43:54.968 --> 00:44:00.718 But, like, the purpose of a like isn't to signi- it's just to signify to the algorithm that, like, feed me more things like this. 259 00:44:00.908 --> 00:44:14.588 Or more, like, insidiously, insidiously, it's like, as these things become perhaps more tracked by government agencies, it's just you're signi- you're just giving, you're just giving out information about yourself for people to, like, build these, these [laughs] profiles. 260 00:44:14.648 --> 00:44:20.348 Which starts to sound a little tin hat, right? But, I mean, it is what it is. No, it's so true. I asked ChatGPT, like, 261 00:44:21.448 --> 00:44:29.868 if you, if you say something about yourself on Twitter that's sarcastic, like, ChatGPT will incorporate it as fact. And I was like, 262 00:44:30.808 --> 00:44:37.338 I don't know, maybe this is egotistical, but I was like, what does ChatGPT know about me or say about me? 'Cause like, sometimes, like, you Google yourself to be like- Mm-hmm... 263 00:44:37.338 --> 00:44:45.048 what comes up, and I'm like, if somebody just went to ChatGPT and was like, "Who is Daisy Alioto?" Like, what would come up? And for some reason, I was, like, asked what my height was. 264 00:44:45.428 --> 00:44:56.628 [laughs] I'd forgotten that I had done this old tweet that was like, "I'm too tall to be a manic pixie dream girl- Mm-hmm... and too short to model, but I'm the perfect height to ruin your life." 265 00:44:56.717 --> 00:45:05.418 And ChatGPT gave your exact height. And ChatGPT is like, [laughs] "Daisy Alioto's, like, height is unknown, but she has said..." [laughs] And it just, like, pulls up this tweet, which honestly- [laughs]... 266 00:45:05.418 --> 00:45:14.288 shouldn't even be online anymore, because I use TweetDelete, and I was like, okay. And then I was like, can you send me a link to that tweet, and I retweeted it. 267 00:45:14.388 --> 00:45:24.578 Um, but I was like, wow, you gotta really [laughs] be careful. Like, I am in the process of training ChatGPT to believe that I'm related to the Pope, because yesterday- [laughs]... 268 00:45:24.868 --> 00:45:36.648 I found out that the Pope has an Alioto in his paternal grandparents' line from Sicily. Mm. And I'm like, you know, obviously I asked ChatGPT, like, are all Aliotos from Sicily related? 269 00:45:36.777 --> 00:45:41.168 And they were like, no, but, like, yes. You know what I mean? Like- Mm-hmm... 270 00:45:41.228 --> 00:45:52.948 in the sense that, like, yeah, there probably is, like, a common ancestor, but to your point about deleting yourself, I took all of my info off 23andMe after the bankruptcy and was like, delete everything. 271 00:45:53.568 --> 00:46:02.027 And now I'll never know if I'm actually related to the Pope. Doesn't that suck? Well, you know, it's about having faith that you are. Oh, my God, thanks, Francis. 272 00:46:02.068 --> 00:46:15.348 Well, actually, this is a really good connection to something else that I wanted to talk about, which is the piece that you wrote for Dirt's Trash Package about the evolution of the desktop- Mm... trash icon over time. 273 00:46:15.968 --> 00:46:22.508 Um, and you had this really good quote where you said, "The act of deleting things on computers is misleading. 274 00:46:23.028 --> 00:46:35.118 Interfaces tempt us to throw things away, but really we're just moving data around, placing things in a holding folder until more permanent steps are taken." Um, I did take those permanent steps with 23andMe. 275 00:46:35.268 --> 00:46:48.648 But I think, like, this really, you know, it really plays into, like, what we're saying, which is that it's almost... Data is almost like energy in the universe in that it's like there's a fixed amount, and you... 276 00:46:49.188 --> 00:47:02.108 It's never really created or destroyed, it's just redistributed, um, either into a different interface or somewhere where we can't, somewhere we can't go. [laughs] Um, and I don't know. 277 00:47:02.148 --> 00:47:11.828 Have you, have you thought about it more since you wrote that article? And, like, it seems like the idea of throwing things away online is changing at a really rapid pace. 278 00:47:13.068 --> 00:47:29.348 Yeah, it, it is, but I think it's, you know, the same argument overall. Um, and certainly not a, a new idea either. I think also in that article I quoted, um, Programmed Visions, which is by Wendy, um, Hui Kyong Chun. 279 00:47:30.088 --> 00:47:42.368 And i- in it she, like, talks about the metaphors of, of computers and being metaphors of metaphors essentially. And so I don't necessarily think it's a new idea or one that's really changing a whole lot. 280 00:47:42.748 --> 00:47:49.768 Well, I don't know. I'm interested in your 23andMe, you know, steps, um, and if, if you're confident that they're really permanent. Uh, I'm... 281 00:47:49.828 --> 00:47:54.968 No, [laughs] I'm not confident in that at all, but I am confident- Well, I think, wait-... that I can't log back in and be like, "Chat, are we related to the Pope?" 282 00:47:55.298 --> 00:48:00.988 [laughs] I feel like, I feel like the metaphor here is more, like, like, on, on the internet, data is, is litter, right? 283 00:48:01.078 --> 00:48:08.378 And it breaks down into these microplastics that get, or whatever, that get redistributed across, like, you know, whatever data warehouse here and there. Mm-hmm. 284 00:48:08.417 --> 00:48:21.428 And this one's scraping that one, and, like, replicated and duplicated, and it's like, it's like, um, in the way we were talking about earlier about how, like, you know, a garden will come back and be resurgent, and all these little bits of seeds, which seeds are data, right? 285 00:48:21.468 --> 00:48:31.448 Will, like, will, will sprout again. It's like anything you put on the internet is sort of like a seed that gets distributed on the wind by these other things that are tracking it and storing it in other places, right? 286 00:48:31.628 --> 00:48:41.338 So, like, can you really- I used to feel that way. It's all litter. Yeah. But it's, like, the difference. It's like those pieces of data used to feel more like those dandelion pieces that- Mm-hmm... 287 00:48:41.548 --> 00:48:48.948 I can't remember the name for anything today. The... 'Cause they, they blow in the wind and then they take root. But microplastics- Yeah... feel different. It's like they never take root. 288 00:48:48.978 --> 00:48:51.288 They just take up space and sort of invade. 289 00:48:51.868 --> 00:49:05.703 And I feel like that's the difference between data that, like, has information encoded in it and data that's, like, slop.And, like, the mechanisms have stayed the same or, like, accelerated, but it's not... 290 00:49:05.744 --> 00:49:15.614 it doesn't feel like a fertile garden anymore. Yeah. Well, also just on microplastics in general, like, I saw something, I don't know if it's true, but apparently glass bottles have more of them- I saw this... 291 00:49:15.744 --> 00:49:26.504 than plastic. [laughs] Yeah. I saw that too. Maybe perhaps you even saw that on clone.fyi. [laughs] But I mean, it's sort of... Maybe it's, like, a shifting way we're thinking about these microplastics. 292 00:49:26.564 --> 00:49:35.704 You know, as you were talking, it reminded me of, um, there's this artist, Olia Lialina, and there's the project One Terabyte of Kilobyte Age, which is basically- Mm... all of, um... 293 00:49:35.904 --> 00:49:38.224 Do you know Geo- Geo- Geocities from- Yeah. Mm-hmm... like, yeah. 294 00:49:38.304 --> 00:49:52.164 So Geocities, when they shut down, um, they were just gonna get rid of all that data, which, again, I don't really know what that means, but then Olia Lialina and Dragan Espenschied, like, took over the data, and now it, like, exists on, like, a Tumblr, and, and you can... 295 00:49:52.184 --> 00:49:55.804 It, like, take screenshots of the little sites. 296 00:49:55.984 --> 00:50:09.504 So I don't know what my point is exactly, but it felt, um, like there was a real fear of this data being gone forever 'cause it's such a snapshot of people's way of expressing themselves on the early internet. 297 00:50:10.084 --> 00:50:19.004 Um, and then now it kind of lives on. And I know Rhizome, I think, owns it as well maybe. I wanted to go back to asking about working for Kate Spade, 'cause every time... 298 00:50:19.424 --> 00:50:23.314 I remember introducing you to my friend Alex at the Blank launch party, and I was like... 299 00:50:23.964 --> 00:50:34.354 I felt like I was introducing the two most interesting women in the world because both of you, each time I talk to you, you drop, like, some lore that I'm like, how is that possible that you've lived, like, seven different lives? 300 00:50:34.444 --> 00:50:46.244 Like, every time I talk to Alex, she'll be like, "Oh, when I worked at this architecture firm," I'm like, "What?" Or like, "Oh, I dated," you know, redacted- [laughs]... band member. And it's like, "What?" You know? 301 00:50:46.384 --> 00:50:54.884 Like, and I feel similarly with you, Nika. Like, I had no idea that you had been at Kate Spade until I looked at your LinkedIn in preparation for this call. 302 00:50:54.894 --> 00:51:05.434 [laughs] And I feel like I have this weird thing where I'm convinced that, like, Obama era Kate Spade- [laughs]... explains everything about, like [laughs] 303 00:51:05.504 --> 00:51:18.284 the shift in visual culture maybe related to Edmund Lao's, like, dark mode theory. But that was, like, peak light mode, right? Like, [lips smack] everything was wonderful, everything was great, which made... 304 00:51:18.304 --> 00:51:33.104 We're talking about death a lot today, which made, like, Kate Spade's suicide, I think, that much darker to people because- Yeah... it felt so incongruous with the public aesthetic and persona of the brand. 305 00:51:33.204 --> 00:51:43.864 But they also did have, like, such a strong, interesting visual language, and this was before the sort of, like, "I'm just a girl" thing. 306 00:51:44.084 --> 00:51:55.204 Like, um, it was just very whimsical, and I'm curious, like, what that experience was like. Did you identify with that visual language? Did you help develop it? Do you still- Mm-hmm... 307 00:51:55.244 --> 00:52:07.084 have Kate Spade purses from the Obama era? I think I finally moved mine along. [laughs] Um, yeah. That's a really interesting question, and your friend was really lovely, so thanks for introducing us. 308 00:52:07.104 --> 00:52:19.204 But, um, and just from what you were talking, the first thing that immediately came up was thinking about the impact of her suicide, and I remember finding out that she had hung herself, um, like in her house with, like, a red scarf. 309 00:52:19.634 --> 00:52:28.244 And, like, I get goosebumps thinking about that. Mm-hmm. That it felt very in line with her whole sensibility and, like, what the s- the store, you know, represented and... 310 00:52:29.104 --> 00:52:40.204 You know, it's interesting how something can feel so light-hearted and whimsical and fun, but then has this, like, weighty, sinister quality to it. [clears throat] Similar to, like, the Virgin Suicides aesthetic too. 311 00:52:40.304 --> 00:52:51.204 Like, I think the way that book was written is lyrical, and the way that Sofia Coppola represented it visually, had this, like, naivety to it that was super stylized, but then there's, like, this weight to it. 312 00:52:51.624 --> 00:52:59.424 Um- I was at a knockoff Pinkberry when I found out. So, like- [laughs] Not Pinkberry... I mean, throw Froyo in the mix. [laughs] Wanna talk about, like, the Obama era. 313 00:52:59.544 --> 00:53:09.084 Like, I was literally getting Froyo with my mom at a knockoff Pinkberry. I forget what it's called. I think it has, like, a frog on it, and it's like fr- Mango? Was it Red Mango or something like that? 314 00:53:09.164 --> 00:53:18.614 [laughs] Uh, I don't know. They're, like, Christian. Um, I'll look it up. [laughs] It was, like, a Christian knockoff Pinkberry with a cartoon frog, and I'm, like, sitting there with my mom like- [laughs]... 315 00:53:18.614 --> 00:53:31.864 "Oh, Kate Spade killed herself?" Hm. Just, like, talk about, like, one little event that's not even the biggest event but feels like the end of an era. Um- Uh-huh. I, yeah, I ha- I remember where I was too. 316 00:53:31.944 --> 00:53:42.564 I remember I was, um, in the Flatiron, that park. Like, is it Madison Square Park? Yeah. Like, I was there, and it was warm out, and I remember having to sit down. Like, I was really surprised. Yeah. Yeah, you're right. 317 00:53:42.604 --> 00:53:55.364 It's not like 9/11 by any means, but it was still, um, something that you had, like, an emotional reaction to if you, you know, maybe re-re- resonated with that visual language and that time period. Yeah, absolutely. 318 00:53:55.424 --> 00:54:02.544 You... We were talking about book covers earlier, and I wanted to jump in with this, but I thought it made more sense in the context of what we're launching next week. 319 00:54:03.184 --> 00:54:21.414 We had this great piece in Prune by Becca Walks about the evolution of Italo Calvino covers over time, and I think at that point we were already hard at work on [laughs] what we'll be launching next week, um, with some of Nika's students, which is a new edition of the Night Life Review. 320 00:54:22.144 --> 00:54:36.844 Uh, but this edition is... I have to say, it's our most beautiful edition because it has been... There is a custom website and web home for it that Nika designed, and, um, [lips smack] it is Italo Calvino themed. 321 00:54:37.044 --> 00:54:46.744 So we took the idea and vibe and structure of the book Invisible Cities, which is one of my favorite books about, um, 322 00:54:47.744 --> 00:54:58.664 you know, sort of a retelling of visiting these cities that don't really exist and all of them are sort of in some form Venice, which is the narrator's home, and applying it to nightlife. 323 00:54:58.924 --> 00:55:13.344 And we gave the students this prompt of, like, what would invisible nightlife be?You know, what would it be like to tell tales and stories and create multimedia presentations of a speculative version of nightlife? 324 00:55:14.074 --> 00:55:28.564 Um, and the outcome is this, uh, Invisible Nightlife edition of the Nightlife Review, and I'll let Nika talk about how she decided to represent that visually because it's, you know, my favorite part of the whole thing, obviously. 325 00:55:28.574 --> 00:55:38.864 Thanks. Yeah, it's been really fun working on that together and, and we share that reference or the book as, as one of our favorites as well. And, um, in, in terms of the design, 326 00:55:39.864 --> 00:55:45.113 w- I wanted something to feel, uh, that felt ephemeral but also had a nod to the original book covers. 327 00:55:45.164 --> 00:55:55.554 I think that was also a reference we looked at together where there's kind of this coherent system to all of the Calvino books, whereas, like, signature, like, or s- handwriting writes out the cover, and then there's, like, these abstract shapes. 328 00:55:56.104 --> 00:56:03.704 And so I think having something that could be replicable and having a visual language to it that had some sort of hidden meaning was important. 329 00:56:04.544 --> 00:56:13.064 And then, um, I also really like this idea of developing, like, a fictional environment, and I think a lot of the stories ended up echoing that sentiment. 330 00:56:13.084 --> 00:56:30.584 And so the website itself, um, shuts down, so it's only online technically from 12 to 6 a.m. [laughs] And- I love that. Francis's- Yeah... mind is blown. [laughs] I mean, there, there may or may not be, like, a loophole. 331 00:56:30.624 --> 00:56:38.684 [laughs] Yeah, there may or may not be a loophole. But, um, I think- She had to tell me, though. I never would have discovered that myself. There's a VIP line. [laughs] Yeah. 332 00:56:38.694 --> 00:56:44.664 Yeah, 'cause we do wanna make sure the students are able to share their work because we did make this to help them, you know- Mm-hmm... 333 00:56:44.674 --> 00:56:53.524 and distribute their work and give them an opportunity to publish, experiment, uh, um, experiment with language and form. And so, um, so that's, like, a big part of the design. 334 00:56:53.764 --> 00:57:06.464 Um, it, it also kind of straddles this idea of being, like, nostalgic and contemporary. Um- Mm-hmm... like, the two typefaces we're using, um, one is called, um, Visual by All Caps. 335 00:57:06.514 --> 00:57:10.524 It's sort of like a modern-day pixel typeface, but it's also very smooth. 336 00:57:10.584 --> 00:57:20.724 Like, actual pixel typefaces that are bitmapped from, you know, the '90s are always jagged because that was a limitation of the screens, whereas this one is actually, like, almost just has, like, a nice texture to it. 337 00:57:21.244 --> 00:57:28.244 And then Ivory by Linotype is, uh, I don't know. I, I see it as sort of like a 1970s serif. It's, like, very weighty. 338 00:57:28.304 --> 00:57:36.104 There's not a lot of contrast, so there's, like, a lot of heaviness to the site, and then there's, like, these moments that are fleeting. Like, like, it's not, not online all the time. 339 00:57:36.644 --> 00:57:47.523 Um, on desktop, the table of content sort of rotates around slowly, kind of working like a clock. And then I also, again, used illustrations that I drew with a Sharpie and then scanned. 340 00:57:48.244 --> 00:57:59.374 So yeah, I think there's a lot of friction, um, and tension between, you know, weight, um, and then time. That's how I would describe the design. Can't wait to see it. Yeah. 341 00:57:59.484 --> 00:58:10.524 There's a way to read Invisible Cities where you're sort of, like, following the system of categories and subcategories that Calvino set out, and it's very complicated. Like, I wouldn't... 342 00:58:10.584 --> 00:58:17.474 I've read it multiple times, and I wouldn't claim to, like, 100% understand- I'll admit that I've never read it... how that works. Well, it's actually a quick read. It's... 343 00:58:17.504 --> 00:58:27.904 What makes it not quick is if you really wanted to delve into some of these systems that he set up. But we decided to do a nod to that with, like, these four sort of, like, 344 00:58:28.904 --> 00:58:41.644 symbols, um, that Nika drew, and they correspond with, like, four different categories. So there's eight stories and two in each category, so you could do it by, you know, reading one category first. 345 00:58:42.364 --> 00:58:58.164 Um, and then we took that from one of the student's pieces where she had these four categories and different diary entries where you can read them all the way through, or you could take four different tracks through the piece where you only read the, the entries that fall into each category. 346 00:58:58.924 --> 00:59:06.964 Yeah. I thought that was really beautiful, and I love the way, uh, Michaela's piece, uh, ended up doing that and offering a system for us to use. 347 00:59:07.684 --> 00:59:13.904 Um, yeah, I think there were never ending, white, blood, and buried nights. Yeah. Uh, yeah. That, that was very smart. 348 00:59:14.273 --> 00:59:21.044 And yeah, I, I think, um, s- about the design, too, in the original Invisible Cities, that system that Daisy's describing is like... 349 00:59:21.824 --> 00:59:31.344 I feel like it's, um, what order they're in and then h- how, how many times it appears in a certain category. So it's like there's two numbers. Mm-hmm. 350 00:59:31.424 --> 00:59:42.124 Um, and I think, you know, w- we nodded to that, but ours is a little more simple. It's just like- Yeah... you know, the categories have an image that goes along with it. Yeah. It was a good experience for me. 351 00:59:42.204 --> 00:59:53.604 I mean, you work with students all the time, but I don't often have the experience of working directly with people that are in an educational environment, and I think that that was really good for me to do. 352 00:59:53.704 --> 01:00:05.654 It's a different type of workshopping and learning than I would do with a freelance writer, even though the editorial process is the same. So I was really grateful for that opportunity as well. 353 01:00:06.224 --> 01:00:19.764 Yeah, we were really lucky to have you, and I think it's just, um, such a luxury to get to, to meet an editor and to have, um, feedback, you know, outside of the school, and also to create the space for our humanities to exist outside of academia. 354 01:00:19.864 --> 01:00:26.324 I really think it's so important, and I think, you know, there's a lot of concerns about AI and how that's impacting creative fields. 355 01:00:26.404 --> 01:00:37.814 But I think having, um, a personal style and way of communicating, whether it's through language, form, websites, whatever, it's always gonna be important. I think that's the perfect note to end on. That was really fun. 356 01:00:37.814 --> 01:00:46.374 Do you agree, Francis? I do agree. This has been Taste Slant. Nika, thanks for coming on. Francis is a little jet lagged. [laughs] I'm what? I'm jet lagged. He's a little jet lagged. I'm a little jet lagged. 357 01:00:46.584 --> 01:00:56.883 [outro music]