WEBVTT 1 00:00:00.080 --> 00:00:15.950 [upbeat music] Welcome back to Tasteland. I'm your co-host, Francis Zehrer. And I'm Daisy Ajodo. And Francis, who are we talking with today? Wow, I've- you've never asked me that before. Um- How does it feel? 2 00:00:15.959 --> 00:00:23.810 [laughs] It feels weird. Uh, Daisy, today we are talking to your friend and mine, friend of the pod, Ethan Sawyer- Mm... 3 00:00:23.810 --> 00:00:40.129 who is a field producer at CBC, which is the Canadian Broadcasting Corporation, and the creator of Human Pursuits, a newsletter where he has interviewed both of us, uh, and where, as he says, he navigates modern existence with help from need-to-know names in media and culture. 4 00:00:40.460 --> 00:00:51.400 Again, that's us. Um, and he lives in Vancouver, Canada. Been having a lot of Canucks on recently. I don't know if that's a column. Yeah. Well, he also interviewed my husband for his newsletter- Hmm... 5 00:00:51.410 --> 00:01:00.780 and recently asked people who'd previously been featured in the newsletter what type of music they write to. Um, and I, I got the email from him. 6 00:01:01.060 --> 00:01:09.590 I responded, I didn't think much of it because unlike some of the people who are solicited for dirt prompts, I, I understand that my duty is to just sit there- Okay, so you're sub-podding... think about it. 7 00:01:09.590 --> 00:01:14.020 [laughs] You're sub-podding everybody who didn't reply to you Think about it for 30 seconds- [laughs]... and then send something back. 8 00:01:14.620 --> 00:01:26.140 Um, but Ben's way of telling me that he was solicited for this was like, "That Canadian guy emailed me today to ask me what I listen to while I write." And I was like, "Sweetheart, what are you talking about?" 9 00:01:26.190 --> 00:01:32.540 [laughs] Like, we got the same email. I was like, "What are you talking about?" He was like, "The Canadian guy." And I was like, "Did Ethan ask you his prompt as well?" 10 00:01:32.720 --> 00:01:41.060 Like [laughs] That could be a good name for this episode, That Canadian Guy. [laughs] But the- we didn't, we didn't talk about it, so when I saw it- Oh... our answers were, like, pretty similar. Um- Yeah... 11 00:01:41.080 --> 00:01:53.520 which makes sense. I don't remember your answer. What was your answer? Well, I will write to instrumental music, experimental music, or music that I'm very familiar with so it fades into the background. Mm-hmm. Yes. 12 00:01:53.640 --> 00:02:07.320 Usually I have to edit in silence, but when it gets to the final stages of editing, I've found that some people, I do this sometimes too if I'm really tired, they'll cover one eye, um, so that they don't go typo blind. 13 00:02:07.440 --> 00:02:07.580 Hmm. 14 00:02:08.060 --> 00:02:23.690 Um, but another way of doing that is to, like, listen to music while you're editing so that you're forced to tune the music out, and it makes you more tuned to what's on the page, 'cause, like, the, the thing about being an editor that's so frustrating is if you just gloss over the same- Yeah... 15 00:02:23.780 --> 00:02:31.020 error multiple times 'cause you're not seeing it. Your brain is just filling in- Yeah, you need something to fight against... yeah, your brain's filling in the right words. So that's basically what I said. 16 00:02:31.060 --> 00:02:43.640 And, like, that music f- to write to could be, like, Brian Eno. Yeah. Um, I don't know, maybe, like, Radiohead, like, stuff that I'm super familiar with. Sometimes techno if I really need to, like, lock in. 17 00:02:44.020 --> 00:02:49.730 That's usually, that's usually my go-to. Not necessarily just techno, but, like, dance music generally, repetitive dance music. Yeah. 18 00:02:49.750 --> 00:02:55.840 That's the answer I gave, gave is, like, the main thing is it's usually I'm listening to something on repeat, whether it's a song or an album. 19 00:02:56.340 --> 00:03:11.680 Um, and I think, I think for, like, might be three years now, a go-to of mine has been Who Needs Guitars Anyways?, the, the seminal album by Alice DJ, famous of, uh, of, um, Do You Think You're Better Off Alone fame. Mm. 20 00:03:11.900 --> 00:03:21.820 Um, great album. Talk about repetitive. Talk about repetitive. But yeah, it is very repetitive, but yeah, you know. It's kind of like it just puts me into a loop. I don't know. 21 00:03:22.340 --> 00:03:28.940 Um, I know what you mean, though, about, like, like, having something to focus against. Like, I feel like a- as a, as a kid, I was such 22 00:03:30.140 --> 00:03:42.580 a bookworm, and I'd be maybe in my parents', in my family's living room while there was company over for dinner and just, like, in the corner focusing on my book and, like, having that sound to read against 23 00:03:43.780 --> 00:03:55.620 is really nice. Yeah, and I think, like, for people with ADHD, my understanding is, like, you always kind of need something to focus against. Mm. Which is interesting. I feel like I kind of dip in and out of 24 00:03:56.580 --> 00:04:08.120 being better multitasking or achieve, needing to achieve flow state by kind of really clearing everything out. But- Mm-hmm... you and I both work on deadlines, and I was... 25 00:04:08.940 --> 00:04:15.940 Did you read this Curb article this morning about the Center for Fiction? I have not. I haven't had time to read much of anything today- Okay, so-... 'cause I was on a deadline... 26 00:04:16.540 --> 00:04:26.480 Center for Fiction has created sort of a co-working space for writers in Brooklyn. You could sign up for a desk. I think it's like $100 a month. But- That's pretty cheap... 27 00:04:26.540 --> 00:04:35.620 it's first come, first served, so people are, like, fighting over the desks. There's, like, some scrutiny happening of, like, who's actually working, who's on Twitter, are these people actually writers, is this a lawyer? 28 00:04:36.200 --> 00:04:50.760 And I was just thinking about it, and I was like, you know, an inexpensive space to co-work, fine. Mm. But, like, if you were actually working, like, you would not be so, 29 00:04:51.940 --> 00:04:57.500 you know, like, involved and distressed by the inability to find a desk. 30 00:04:57.700 --> 00:05:04.800 Like, I understand if you're, like, paying for it, and you're like, "I, I'm paying for it and I can never find a desk," but it's like, go to your house and write or go to a cafe. 31 00:05:04.840 --> 00:05:16.280 You're saying, you're saying this is that disease of, like, I need my favorite pen and notebook. 100%. This is just, like, the continuation of the psyop that writer's block is real. Writer's block is not real. 32 00:05:16.340 --> 00:05:33.460 Let's ask Ethan about it 'cause he's here. Get him in here. [upbeat music] Hello, Ethan. Hey, Ethan. Um, just wondering off the bat, is writer's block real? Oh, my God, no, it's not real. Thank you. 33 00:05:33.710 --> 00:05:40.980 [laughs] Yeah, not at all. No. Good man, good man. If people spent less time talking about writer's block, they'd have more time to write. Exactly. That's true. 34 00:05:41.080 --> 00:05:45.080 But then they wouldn't have all that time to tweet and, and write notes about writer's block. 35 00:05:45.580 --> 00:06:01.100 Yeah, that's the thing is, like, writing, writing is just such a basic form of communication that, you know, you might have a blockage or you might have a misunderstanding of what you wanna say or how you wanna say it, but you're not actually blocked in terms of the, the actual act of writing. 36 00:06:01.140 --> 00:06:10.830 You can always write your way out of it. Mm-hmm.That's what I think. I also think having a background in journalism or deadline-based writing definitely helps 'cause 37 00:06:12.020 --> 00:06:24.820 I-- every journalist I know has filed from a McDonald's or a mov-moving vehicle. But I think if you never work in a deadline-based environment, it's possible to come become, like, way too precious about your writing. 38 00:06:25.480 --> 00:06:35.980 Uh, and that's, I think, when a lot of these, this emotional baggage comes in of uncertainty. But it's like, it's an emotional issue, it's not a talent issue. Mm-hmm. Yeah. 39 00:06:36.020 --> 00:06:41.020 To me, I think about it a little bit, um, you know, I have baseball on the brain just 'cause of the Toronto Blue Jays recently. 40 00:06:41.080 --> 00:06:47.920 But I was thinking a lot about it in terms of, like, at-bats and the idea that if I'm-- like, I'm someone who doesn't play baseball. 41 00:06:48.540 --> 00:06:52.630 If I go up to a bat right now, I would be really nervous about it and I'd be overthinking it. Mm-hmm. 42 00:06:52.660 --> 00:07:09.720 But if you're making a career out of it and you're just doing it a lot, um, it's kind of like exercise or something where I think the muscle is there where, especially in a journalism context, um, you know, you have that skill set where you can just go and you understand that at a certain point you can just communicate basic information. 43 00:07:09.780 --> 00:07:17.260 It doesn't necessarily have to be pretty, it doesn't necessarily have to be clever, but if you're communicating something with the audience, then it, it works for you. 44 00:07:17.340 --> 00:07:28.139 I think it's a bit different with, you know, long form essays or something like that. Mm-hmm. Um, but yeah, at the end of the day you're just communicating information and, and that s- really should never be blocked. 45 00:07:28.180 --> 00:07:39.060 There should always be a way to do that. A great philosopher- Did you read Information Age by Corliss? I did not. I'm actually-- I've fallen off on reading this year. I haven't read nearly as much as I would like to. 46 00:07:39.220 --> 00:07:49.440 I, I have, like, such a long list of books, and that one is on it, uh, of stuff to read, and I just literally haven't done any of it. I've been such a failure. Oh, she kinda gets into that. Reader's block. 47 00:07:49.500 --> 00:07:55.720 Reader's block is real. Reader's block is real. That's for sure. Yeah. Reader's block is real. Not writer, not writer's block, but reader's block is real. Mm-hmm. Francis, what were you gonna say? 48 00:07:56.180 --> 00:08:06.620 Um, no, it doesn't matter. But I, I do, I do wanna s- talk briefly about a book- [laughs]... a short story I read yesterday. Have you guys heard, heard of Harvey Swados? Mm-mm. No. I, I was in a, um, 49 00:08:07.640 --> 00:08:19.000 I was in a hipster coffee shop, uh, the other day. [laughs] And, um [laughs] which is also a bookstore. Um, and it's New York Review Books. They always catch my eye, you know. Have I, have I seen this one before? 50 00:08:19.220 --> 00:08:27.989 It's called Nights in the Gardens of Brooklyn. Um, this guy lived from, like, 1920 to '72. Mm-hmm. Uh, I think he wrote this in the early '60s. But Nights in the Gardens of Brooklyn- Mm-hmm... 51 00:08:28.160 --> 00:08:36.130 the, the, the title short story, I read it last night. It's, like, 45 pages. Um, but it was very... It was kind of comforting in that it's about, you know, this... 52 00:08:36.160 --> 00:08:47.460 The narrator comes home from World War II and he's, he's in New York, and it's about, like, this perfect life that he and his friends have and he meets his, his soon-to-be wife. 53 00:08:47.560 --> 00:08:55.640 They get married and, you know, everything is, everything is perfect and then everything starts falling apart. And it's kind of about being in your 20s and being carefree, and things are nice. 54 00:08:55.760 --> 00:09:07.680 And then suddenly you start getting older, and it's about, like, all the different people you are and know and their general failings and fallings off and movings to the suburbs and, and all that. 55 00:09:07.760 --> 00:09:18.459 Um, and it's kind of comforting to know that, like, this guy was writing this 60, 70 years ago and it's kind of all the same now. Um, I'm gonna read a very short piece here. 56 00:09:18.560 --> 00:09:25.150 Uh, uh, he's, he's, he- I like how we're doing this early. Yeah [laughs]. I'm so, I'm so stoked to get a Francis read, a Francis long form read right now. 57 00:09:25.150 --> 00:09:36.680 So he's, he's a census taker, and he, he kind of takes solace with this woman on the, like, the falling apart Lower East Side and he, he, you know, he, she, she barely speaks English, he barely speaks Yiddish, but he goes there and kind of, like, talks to her. 58 00:09:37.060 --> 00:09:56.519 But he says, "As long as she was there, I could not be soured on the city with its grinding drive for money and place, or frightened by the rank growth of ambition among my friends, whom I had thought to be as happy and careless as Pauline and I, but who were learning a vocabulary in the know, lunch dates, capital gains, that was new in our lives." 59 00:09:57.700 --> 00:10:04.280 Um, and I just, I found much of it relatable, but I, I, I, I laughed out loud at that. Well, that's interesting. 60 00:10:04.380 --> 00:10:14.500 I don't know what your takeaway from it entirely is, but to me that actually resonates because, uh, I think for a lot of people, like, we're all roughly the same age. As you get into your 30s, 61 00:10:15.680 --> 00:10:25.880 I find that there's, like, a bit of this, like, f- not, like, fear of missing out on, like, the actual event, but this idea that, like, I think people our age, you know, we tend to compare ourselves to each other a lot. 62 00:10:25.920 --> 00:10:30.840 Mm-hmm. And I've definitely noticed it with other people where, um, there's a sort of sense of, like, "Oh, I should be doing that." 63 00:10:30.900 --> 00:10:35.290 So, like, a really basic example would be like, oh, like, your friend all started saving for houses- Mm-hmm... 64 00:10:35.300 --> 00:10:43.570 and you, like, didn't get the memo or something like that, and people are like, "Oh my God," like, "I should've been doing this." Like, "So and so's been saving money or whatever for a year." Like, it... 65 00:10:43.980 --> 00:10:50.530 And it is, it just sort of speaks to this idea that there, at the end of the day, there isn't, like, a manual for how to, like, live your life. Mm-hmm. 66 00:10:50.620 --> 00:11:03.700 Like, uh, a lot of what we do we do because we pick it up from other people and, you know, the sort of social connection is really important there, uh, in terms of guiding you, I think. Mm-hmm. Yeah. 67 00:11:03.880 --> 00:11:15.980 I was talking to a much older friend that's a writer about having your book blurbed, and she was sort of, like, somewhat facetiously like, "Well, I have a lot of famous friends, but I hate them." 68 00:11:16.010 --> 00:11:26.920 [laughs] Um, and I was like, "Wow, you... It's true. Like, you either become the famous friend that your other friends hate or you end up with a lot of famous friends that you no longer like." 69 00:11:27.690 --> 00:11:33.870 [laughs] And [laughs] I was like, "I think, I think I know which track that I'm on." But either way- [laughs]... it's a little bit of a sad cycle really. 70 00:11:34.120 --> 00:11:43.700 Or, or you're just a normal person who [laughs] doesn't have any famous friends, right? Right. Yeah. Or you're a normal person. I would say I think this happens in hyper competitive- Yes. Yeah, yeah... 71 00:11:43.760 --> 00:11:55.820 industries with a lot of backbiting and social climbing. I did see some, like, excellent social climbing, um, discourse on the timeline. I think it was from, uh, this tweeter who goes by Brunella. Um- Mm-hmm... 72 00:11:55.860 --> 00:12:06.900 I don't remember their last name, but I did a retweet. Basically talking about, like, how they love social climbers because they're so funny to observe. Like, if they're good at it, it's a little bit of an art form. 73 00:12:06.960 --> 00:12:14.220 If they're bad at it, it's funny. And-There is something, like, kind of amusing if you can distance yourself from it. 74 00:12:14.300 --> 00:12:22.480 Like, when you're at a party and somebody's, like, looking around for somebody more important, especially if they... You tell them who you are and then they lock in, 75 00:12:23.480 --> 00:12:33.240 and then you get to be experiencing the sort of meta- the meta dynamic of what's happening. Like, is this person for real right now? Like- Mm-hmm... I- it is really funny. 76 00:12:33.380 --> 00:12:47.540 And then, um, Amanda Killian, who did the, the artwork for our upcoming blank collaboration with Little Engines, which is- Hmm... friend of the pod, Adam Voigt's literary publication. Great episode. Love that episode. 77 00:12:47.560 --> 00:12:56.720 Yeah. So good. She quote tweeted and was like, "This is why Don Draper is such a great character," which I will always lock in for a Don Draper character analysis. 78 00:12:57.400 --> 00:13:07.190 Um, I said lock in too many times in one sentence, but that's fine. Um, basically, like, he, he has an outsider's understanding of social climbing. Like, if you watch him throughout the- Mm... 79 00:13:07.190 --> 00:13:18.800 show, he understands the, like, making money to ascend social class part, but he doesn't really understand the other niceties and, like, obligations that go along with that, and I thought that was a really incisive, uh, analysis. 80 00:13:19.380 --> 00:13:29.860 How do you two navigate that? Like, I think about this a little bit, maybe not explicitly in terms of social climbing, but, you know, with my newsletter for instance, like, especially early on, like, I was... 81 00:13:30.100 --> 00:13:39.410 When you're fostering connections with people that you don't necessarily know, I always felt, like, a bit self-conscious about that because I felt like I was sort of being a social climber, 'cause inherently there's a power dynamic- Mm... 82 00:13:39.420 --> 00:13:43.399 of, like, I think you're really interesting and I think you're really cool, and I wanna get to know you better. 83 00:13:43.940 --> 00:13:50.360 And, you know, we all kind of do similar work in terms of, like, making connections, reaching out to people, and I, I wonder how you, like, have squared that. 84 00:13:50.400 --> 00:13:59.380 Have you found a way to have those connections with- without feeling like a social climber, or are you like me where you sort of view it as a bit and you're like, "I'm just... 85 00:14:00.040 --> 00:14:06.730 I know that I- I'm maybe not this, but I- I'm willing to do it because it leads to hopefully a genuine connection or something like that"? 86 00:14:07.320 --> 00:14:18.720 I think with, with me, with Career Spotlight, like, you know, I came into it and it already had over 100,000 subscribers, right? Because Beehive had, had already established it. And so, like, I... 87 00:14:19.220 --> 00:14:29.629 It was, there was this aspect where I always had that to offer people. Like, maybe they had, maybe they have had or have, you know, more following on platforms than, than, than I have on Career Spotlight. 88 00:14:29.700 --> 00:14:37.150 But, like, there's always that of like, "Hey, I'd like to interview you, and here's why." And, like, you know, I always am genuine of, like, do a little pre-research. Mm-hmm. 89 00:14:37.160 --> 00:14:43.020 What's, like, three things I can tell them I'd like to talk to them about on a, on an episode? Um, but if I, if... 90 00:14:43.060 --> 00:14:53.220 You know, I don't always include, like, and here's the size of our audience, but I do when I kind of expect that they are going to be, you know, dismissive of the email. 91 00:14:53.660 --> 00:15:03.960 Um, and then it's like, "Okay, well, here's what I can offer you. You know, we're both climbing here, and I know you wanna climb my 400,000 subscribers." [laughs] Um, I... 92 00:15:04.480 --> 00:15:17.180 Being mistaken for a social climber would be extremely upsetting to me. I think if I wanna work with somebody, I really don't try to go through the motions of befriending them first, um, at this point. 93 00:15:17.250 --> 00:15:23.900 Like, I probably will send them a weird email that's, like, just a subject line that's like, "Hey, are you writing new stuff right now?" 94 00:15:24.800 --> 00:15:34.720 And I feel like I could probably send that email to anyone without embarrassment, like, whether we're following each other on social media or, like, met each other at a party. 95 00:15:34.760 --> 00:15:45.900 And, like, if they haven't heard of Dirt, then I usually just send The New York Times profile- Mm... which is maybe, like, you know, maybe that is the tryhardism of it all. No, that's the move. Mm-hmm. I think 96 00:15:46.900 --> 00:16:02.180 social climbing, it's different from networking, right? I think networking is, it's begins as a transactional relationship and then can become much deeper. It's mutually beneficial. Social climbing is, like, 97 00:16:03.120 --> 00:16:16.900 one-sided transactionalism, or it's transactionalism that never quite develops into any sort of deeper intimacy. Um, and I would much rather have, like, a small number of intimate relationships than, um, 98 00:16:18.040 --> 00:16:26.720 like, a, a circle of performative relationships. Mm-hmm. Um, I tend to find, like, if I'm not really intimate with people in terms of, like, 99 00:16:28.020 --> 00:16:34.050 the ability to be emotionally vulnerable with them or to confide, then they're an acquaintance to me. Yeah. 100 00:16:34.060 --> 00:16:43.500 And I treat my acquaintances very well, but there's, there's very much a division in my mind, and I'm not really consciously ever trying to widen that pool. I think you're exactly right, actually. 101 00:16:43.540 --> 00:16:48.420 Like, as you talk about it more, the networking side of it is definitely what I would view it as. 102 00:16:48.460 --> 00:16:57.820 But yeah, I guess, um, you know, social climbing, you guys probably experience it more just living where you live and, and being where you are. Mm-hmm. Um, like, in Vancouver it's just different. 103 00:16:57.920 --> 00:17:04.579 There's not as much social ladder maybe to climb. Well, there is, but it's just different, especially in, like, the media context. 104 00:17:04.660 --> 00:17:21.620 I think it would serve me to be a better or a more cynical social climber, but I, I, uh, I think I am a little too earnest and bad at, like, you know, lying to do that, um- Where would you go, though?... 105 00:17:21.640 --> 00:17:27.800 Mission Shanghai. Like, where would you climb? I don't know. Um, to- To the top, obviously. [laughs] To, to the top. 106 00:17:27.840 --> 00:17:37.840 Yeah, what's that Graydon Carter thing about s- you know, seven rooms and you, you're, there's always another room. You just go into, into the next room. Um, yeah, I don't know. I don't know where I would go. 107 00:17:37.880 --> 00:17:50.740 [laughs] I want to be in the room I'm in right now, but I need to keep the lights on. Mm. And that's where most of the networking comes from, but it's like I need to- That's like a stand-up poetry, uh, snap moment. 108 00:17:51.660 --> 00:17:59.200 [laughs] I want to be in the room I'm in now, but I need to keep the lights on. Sorry. Just let him hang himself. Just let him hang himself. 109 00:17:59.240 --> 00:18:09.040 [laughs] I, I could see that- Based on past performance, that's gonna be a real- Oh, God... I, I could see that being a really nice piece of art for, like, my kitchen or something. [laughs] No, what art... 110 00:18:09.170 --> 00:18:16.880 I actually have no art in my kitchen right now. Yeah. I should, I should fix that. Okay. I think- I'm sorry, Dizzy. I totally... This is embarrassing. I totally derailed you. No, you didn't. 111 00:18:17.120 --> 00:18:28.178 I guess I-There's like a v- I really always need more capital to run the business. Mm-hmm. That's like a real need. [lips smack] I feel like most of my networking is like in that direction. It's not the- Mm... 112 00:18:28.228 --> 00:18:40.528 in the direction of like cultural clout. And I think networking or social climbing in the direction of clout is just like, you're c- sh- add another metaphor for it in here. Like, you're climbing the quicksand dune. 113 00:18:40.668 --> 00:18:51.498 Like- Okay. Let, let's, let's connect this back to current events. Uh, the Olivia, is it Nutzy? Nutzy? Nutzy. Nutzy. Nutzy. Nutzy. Nutzy. I think there's... I always say Noozy, but I know- Noozy... 114 00:18:51.528 --> 00:18:56.338 like it's Italian- Nuzzy?... so it's like Nutzy. Yeah, but it's Americanized. I was on her Wikipedia- It's not the Italian canton. It's the American canton... 115 00:18:56.468 --> 00:19:09.988 I was on her Wikipedia page, and that's how they had it broken down. Okay. Nutzy? Olivia Nutzy? Well, she was doing a very special type of sexual networking. [laughs] Which, um- Wow... I just don't think... Yeah. 116 00:19:10.048 --> 00:19:22.008 I, I, it's not... I don't think it's particularly widespread, but- Mm-hmm... people, there's clearly there's people doing it, really doing it. [scoffs] Did we all read the New York Times profile? 117 00:19:23.248 --> 00:19:29.958 Uh- Sure did, and the Ryan Lizza- Yeah... follow-up. Okay. I, I, so this is what I was hoping, 'cause I didn't have time to read the Ryan Lizza follow-up. Mm-hmm. 118 00:19:29.958 --> 00:19:41.938 So I read the New York Times article, which was for me, a pretty like fun piece of, of gossip reporting. That was, you know, my, my base enjoyment. It was a bit of a, it was a Joe Didion performance art- Yeah... 119 00:19:41.948 --> 00:19:48.888 I would say. Yeah. I, it, you know- Wait, are we talking, are we talking about the excerpts published from the book? Mm-hmm. Or are we talking about something else? So there's a few different things. 120 00:19:48.948 --> 00:19:57.468 There was the New York Times profile written by the progeny of Nora Ephron and Carl Bernstein. Oh, right. Okay. Max. Yes. Right? And that was with the big photo shoot. Okay. 121 00:19:57.888 --> 00:20:05.208 Then there was the excerpt published- John Bernstein... and... Oh, I thought it was Max. No, it's, there's, there's, there's a couple of them. For, for our purposes, let's call him Max. 122 00:20:05.228 --> 00:20:13.308 There's, there's a few different Bernsteins. Sorry. I looked up, I looked it up. Yes. Sorry to the Bernsteins. Yeah. [laughs] You guys are Bernsteins. I read it, they were like Ben Stein. 123 00:20:13.708 --> 00:20:23.868 [laughs] There was like this joke when I was in college, it was like you could just be like, "Oh, Ben Stein," like if you needed to mention a random person- Mm-hmm... 'cause everyone knows a Ben Stein. Anyway. Yeah. 124 00:20:24.008 --> 00:20:37.437 Um, there was the excerpt published in Vanity Fair yesterday, and then like later in the day, Ryan... Is it Lizza or Lizza? It's probably Lizza. Lizza. It's, it's- Lizzo. [laughs] Then Lizzo- Right. [laughs]... 125 00:20:37.508 --> 00:20:48.348 gets on Substack. Okay. So he writes on Substack. He has been sitting on a nugget of information that- Mm... really impacts how people are gonna perceive this story. He really buried the lede. 126 00:20:48.988 --> 00:20:57.328 Somebody said he passed the marshmallow test. This man sat on it through every news cycle of this discourse and then dropped it in the last line of the piece. 127 00:20:58.288 --> 00:21:01.437 Um- If, if somebody's been reading The Art of War or something, like revenge- [laughs]... 128 00:21:01.437 --> 00:21:12.038 is a dish best served actually pretty hot, 'cause yeah, like he timed it, he, he timed it in a way that to have maximum im- impact, let's say. And that was just part one. Mm. 129 00:21:12.068 --> 00:21:15.418 I mean, I, do we wanna like spoiler what it is, Francis? You know, right? Yeah. Okay. 130 00:21:15.528 --> 00:21:20.998 I, I, I ski- I read the first couple paragraphs then, uh, then I realized I didn't have time to read it all before we were recording this, so I skipped to the end. 131 00:21:21.008 --> 00:21:29.728 Well, you missed out on a lot of artistry and information about bamboo. Yeah, the ba- the bamboo shoots, man. I, the bamboo shoots- [laughs]... made me think of you immediately. That's as far as I read. Me? 132 00:21:29.768 --> 00:21:39.648 That's as far as I read. Uh, no, Francis. Yeah. Yeah. That was nice. Yeah. Sh- Um, yeah. I, so- Oh, 'cause you have bamboo in your backyard, Francis. Well, I don't. Well, he also just has a green thumb though. 133 00:21:39.848 --> 00:21:46.128 I just think of- I do have a green thumb. Did you talk about gardening in your backyard, in that lot when you are, with- Mm... were interviewed by Ethan? No. 134 00:21:46.288 --> 00:21:52.618 W- uh, we did talk about my, you know, my, my org- my farm origins, though. Mm. And your time at the market for sure. Yeah, my time at the market. 135 00:21:52.628 --> 00:22:01.368 But we didn't talk about, we didn't talk about bamboo and how invasive it is, and how- Yeah... it ruins everything it touches apparently. Well, you know, I made a lot of, uh, bamboo bow and arrows as a child. 136 00:22:01.408 --> 00:22:09.408 We had a big bamboo plant on the farm, and- That's dangerous... let me tell you what, that's, that, no- No kidding... it's, uh, it's as, it's, it's as American as apple pie. It's fantastic. Just shoot your eye out. Yeah. 137 00:22:10.288 --> 00:22:16.448 I did archery at summer camp. Is bam- is bamboo natural to the US? Surely not. Maybe. Yeah. Surely not. Well, I'm gonna say no. [laughs] Okay. Yeah. 138 00:22:16.508 --> 00:22:27.028 But anyways, um- [laughs] So, so the spoiler here is that she was sleeping with a senator in 2020, right? Yeah. Yeah. Somebody we all forgot even ran for president. No, he didn't. That guy didn't run for president. 139 00:22:27.048 --> 00:22:35.458 What are you talking about? Yeah, he did. That's why she was covering him. No way. [laughs] During the primaries. Yeah, but it was like when the primaries- I believe you... are like 25 people in the field. Yeah. 140 00:22:35.458 --> 00:22:44.338 You know what I mean? Yeah, yeah. Mm-hmm. Yeah. When the, when the tertiaries, you know. Yeah. But yeah, so maybe- But, and also ran. [scoffs] Mm-hmm. As we call them. And also ran. And also ran. Yeah. 141 00:22:44.348 --> 00:22:54.708 Do you call them also rans in Canada? Uh, no, actually, so funny, that phrase was used in a Taylor Swift song, and I did not understand what it meant. I had to Google it. Mm-hmm. 142 00:22:54.768 --> 00:23:03.788 [lips smack] Maybe they do, but I've never heard it in Canada. Googling Taylor Swift lyrics, kind of a low point in your intellectual journey. We've gotten lower, but that's a different pod, I guess. [laughs] No, say it. 143 00:23:03.898 --> 00:23:12.248 That's th- that's this pod. No, no, no, no. Uh, but to, to answer your initial question, I did not read the New York Times, uh, coverage of Olivia. 144 00:23:12.408 --> 00:23:22.988 I read as much as I could of the Vanity Fair stuff, but then I eventually had to tap out, and then I read all of Ryan's piece yesterday. Mm-hmm. Well, we see where your priorities lie. 145 00:23:23.648 --> 00:23:33.308 Well, but this is, so this is, I mean, regardless of, um, what, social climbing, what we were talking about, it's, it's, this is, this is clout... I, I don't, let, help me, help me name the term. 146 00:23:33.328 --> 00:23:41.368 The name of the pod is probably- Is it clout arbitrage?... Social Climbing Bamboo. [laughs] Social Climbing Bamboo. [laughs] Bamboo bimbos. Uh, social cou- social kung fu? Well- Bamboo bimbos? 147 00:23:42.128 --> 00:23:55.698 I understand where Ethan's coming from though, because- Mm-hmm... there are a lot of publications that have sort of like brute forced their way into having an audience by interviewing people with large audiences. Mm. 148 00:23:55.708 --> 00:24:00.838 And I think this is actually a great audience growth strategy. Like Perfectly Imperfect- It's the, that's, that's how you grow a podcast. Yeah. 149 00:24:00.928 --> 00:24:07.848 I think if you talk to Tyler about Perfectly Imperfect, like how did you jumpstart this thing, it's a very clear formula. Um- Yeah... 150 00:24:07.868 --> 00:24:19.458 and so I could understand like being concerned about how that would appear, but I think that you actually choose, you do not choose people based on the size of their audience, but rather- Yeah... 151 00:24:19.488 --> 00:24:30.630 if they have something interesting to say. And so I think I'm interested to hear from you-How do you curate this, your newsletter and, like, decide who to talk to and- Yeah... 152 00:24:30.640 --> 00:24:41.579 how do you come up with questions that are going to, to resonate with them and get them to say something new about their creative process that's not, like, something that they've said in a million interviews before? 153 00:24:42.540 --> 00:24:53.700 Yeah. That's a really good question. Um, I think at, at a fundamental level, it's a bit of an art and not a science in the sense that a lot of the time I feel like I'm kind of going off instinct at this point. Mm. 154 00:24:53.840 --> 00:25:03.800 Um, where almost immediately I usually know if I find someone's work interesting or if there's, like, a nugget in it that appeals to me. Um, 155 00:25:04.800 --> 00:25:14.320 and when I started my newsletter, I think I was more, like, I actually had, like, a bit more of a list and, like, a bit of a, like, here's people I would love to talk to someday. 156 00:25:14.860 --> 00:25:25.480 And I think the longer it's gone on, um, I've been in a fortunate situation where sometimes I discover things naturally, and I'm just like, "This is amazing, and if I can talk to this person, I would love to." 157 00:25:25.600 --> 00:25:36.580 Um, but other times, you know, I do sometimes get pitched from other people, and then that is a bit more of a, like, using my own sort of discerning taste of, okay, I appreciate the pitch. 158 00:25:36.900 --> 00:25:44.740 Does it feel like a natural fit for me? Because, you know, ultimately my newsletter is really selfish, and a lot of it is filtered through my POV. 159 00:25:44.840 --> 00:25:56.300 Like, uh, as much as you're a fan of whoever I'm talking to, ultimately I think I've realized that the people who are reading are probably reading because at some level they're a fan of me. 160 00:25:56.940 --> 00:26:07.520 Um, and so it's always coming down to, like, well, do I actually like this? Does this resonate with me? And then sort of the secondary question is, can I add anything to the conversation with this person? 161 00:26:07.920 --> 00:26:19.280 And if I can, what could it be that I'm naturally interested in and, like, what is a question I would ask if I was on a podcast with them or if I was with them, you know, at dinner or something like that? Yeah. 162 00:26:19.440 --> 00:26:28.720 I think there's been a couple instances too where you've texted me about somebody who maybe published something in Dirt, or I interacted with, and you're like, "Oh, this person seems really interesting." 163 00:26:29.200 --> 00:26:39.400 And then I feel like I'm sort of, like, giving permission where I'm like, "You should interview them." [laughs] Yeah. So it's sort of like, I feel like you've rolled me into a couple of guest pitches. 164 00:26:39.680 --> 00:26:46.020 Um, I don't remember if that's what happened with Ben, whether you were like, "Oh, Ben's play seems interesting," and I was like, "You could talk to him." 165 00:26:46.129 --> 00:26:56.100 I think, I think- But I could totally see us having that conversation. I actually think straight up Ben was you pitching me on Ben and me being like, "Oh, Ben is awesome." That's so funny. Probably. 166 00:26:56.129 --> 00:27:03.469 'Cause I actually, 'cause I didn't, I hadn't- Life's good... seen any of his work or experienced any of it, right? Just 'cause of where I live, I, I can't... I don't have that access. 167 00:27:03.840 --> 00:27:13.200 So I'm pretty sure you pitched me on that. But, you know, when we're talking about going back to the sort of the social climbing aspect of it- I am Ben's publicist, so that does check out. [laughs] Yeah. 168 00:27:13.300 --> 00:27:19.260 You're, you're his, uh, not his Kris Jenner. We don't have, like, a, a template for a wife who's, like, a publicist. We need to have, like, that in the language. 169 00:27:19.300 --> 00:27:27.540 Well, we do, it's just, like, everything until women could get their own credit cards. [laughs] It's just called the wife. Yeah, exactly. Yeah, just the wife. 170 00:27:27.840 --> 00:27:40.180 Um, but I would say, you know, going back to the social climbing thing of it, um, my pitching is different from Francis's because I often do mention people I've talked to before, and I do... 171 00:27:40.220 --> 00:27:46.760 Even if you look at the language of, like, the newsletter, like, I refer to people that I've interviewed as friends. I don't refer to them as, like, past guests. Mm-hmm. 172 00:27:46.940 --> 00:28:04.040 And that actually is intentional on my part because for the most part, I have, like, a very soft spot and, like, a lot of empathy for the people I'm chatting with because to me, I'm trying really hard with whatever time I'm given to foster some sort of connection that will then extend past the interview. 173 00:28:04.080 --> 00:28:07.140 And part of that is, is because I do it in, like, the weekly news roundup. 174 00:28:07.240 --> 00:28:17.260 So I'll, like, cover only people that I've chatted with, uh, in the newsletter when I'm, like, covering stuff that they've done or, like, if I'm doing a news roundup, it's limited only to those people. 175 00:28:17.300 --> 00:28:24.140 It's not like, here's the most interesting thing I read this week. It's here's the most interesting thing I read from someone that you might be familiar with. Mm-hmm. 176 00:28:24.210 --> 00:28:40.460 And again, that is intentional on my part, but also part of it is that I sort of view it as, like, a world-building exercise where, um, I want people who are reading and I want people who are participating, uh, in the interviews to feel like they're part of something that is, is more than me. 177 00:28:40.520 --> 00:28:48.300 It is filtered through me, but at the end of the day, like, that I don't think is, like, a long-term strategy. It doesn't work because I'm only so interesting, and I'm one person. 178 00:28:48.340 --> 00:29:01.160 And I think, like, building it up to have these recurring characters has been, like, a really fun part of the process for me because it allows me to more naturally have those connections with people such as the two of you, where we actually do talk outside of this. 179 00:29:01.200 --> 00:29:03.910 Like, we have a friendship and a preexisting relationship. 180 00:29:04.140 --> 00:29:23.620 Um, and I, like, am really proud of that and it's something that has made, um, doing this, because it is a lot of work and it is just me by myself, it makes it really satisfying because every year I can look back and be like, "Oh, like, I interviewed whatever, 50 people, and 25 of them I talk to on an almost regular basis," which is really cool. 181 00:29:24.400 --> 00:29:30.720 Maybe the real human pursuit is the friends we made along the way. [laughs] I mean, that's the hope. I mean, yeah. I, I love it and I, I... 182 00:29:30.800 --> 00:29:41.280 No, I love the thing you do at the end with, like, the links of, you know, here's what's, like, usually six bullet points, things that people have been doing, um, the past week. I, I always love reading that part. Yeah. 183 00:29:41.320 --> 00:29:51.450 Well, the hope is that there's a familiarity and, like, it's just, I think everyone is so, um, so desperate for community. That's, like, what we always hear- Mm... is that everybody wants a community. Yeah. 184 00:29:51.450 --> 00:30:11.420 And it, um, I feel that naturally because I'm very aware of, like, the geography in a way that maybe other people in publishing aren't because living in Vancouver, you're so far removed from New York especially, and it feels like, um, a lot of really interesting things are happening in New York right now, and I feel, like, a tremendous amount of envy that I don't live there. 185 00:30:11.520 --> 00:30:27.110 Um, and so for me, this has been, like, a way to foster a connection both with people in the city but also just more broadly and, and trying to take the flatness of the internet and make it in my advantage, like, use it to my advantage so that, uh, I feel closer to all these things. 186 00:30:27.960 --> 00:30:33.525 What happens in the comment section of your newsletter?Absolutely nothing. It's amazing. Mm-hmm. 187 00:30:33.536 --> 00:30:45.236 [laughs] Um, no, I- it's cool because, so my newsletter is basically entirely free, and, um, I have pace- I have payment on, but it's after a certain amount of time. 188 00:30:45.296 --> 00:30:51.956 That's mostly just actually, like, to protect myself as, like, the work gets better, I just want to have the archive be sort of blocked off. 189 00:30:52.676 --> 00:31:01.296 Um, not that there's anything incriminating in it, but just I feel like between... Especially in the last two years, things have just gotten a lot better for me quality-wise and- Mm-hmm... and all that. 190 00:31:01.876 --> 00:31:12.936 Um, but so I only... If you wanna comment, I make you pay to do that, but I always include my email address, so people are able to reach me one-to-one. 191 00:31:12.956 --> 00:31:25.996 And so while I don't have anything happening in the comment section, I actually do get a decent number of emails from people, um, responding to stuff, or they'll reply directly to, you know, the, the email blast and say, "Oh, I like this," or, "That's kind of cool." 192 00:31:26.056 --> 00:31:32.536 And then I also, um, weirdly get a lot of DMs on Instagram- [laughs]... because I'll often share my work on- Oh, yeah... Instagram. 193 00:31:32.636 --> 00:31:43.556 And so again, because I'm trying to foster these, like, one-to-one connections, what ends up happening is that, um, I don't have, like, a tremendously large Instagram following, which apparently is cool now. 194 00:31:43.596 --> 00:31:58.096 But [laughs] um, the people that I, that do follow me, they'll actually interact with me there, which is really special, 'cause they'll be like, "Oh, I, like, really like this," or, um, like I published something last week about the sort of survey that both of you participated in around do you listen to music while you're writing? 195 00:31:58.156 --> 00:32:06.396 And that one weirdly got a lot of people just, like, messaging me being like, "Oh, this is crazy." Like, one person said, "I work for... I work in audio design." 196 00:32:06.456 --> 00:32:18.516 So she designs, like, speakers, and she's like, "Ironically, our whole office works in, like, pure silence." [laughs] Mm. And I was like, "That's so fascinating." That's awesome. Um- Yeah. I have, I- I've got a bad joke. 197 00:32:18.736 --> 00:32:35.016 I'm sorry. I- [laughs] It, it occurred to me, it occurred to me when we were doing the, talking about the Wife PR thing. Um, there's a pitch, dating show concept, Si- Silicon Valley, Wife Combinator. [laughs] Bruh. 198 00:32:35.296 --> 00:32:49.436 [laughs] That's it. [laughs] I don't, I don't know if it... It's kind of over my head conceptually. [laughs] It's, there's... No, it's, it does what it says on the box. It's- [laughs] I'm, I'm so sorry. 199 00:32:49.536 --> 00:32:57.496 You were, you were, you were really giving this nice spiel about, about what, what you do and your work. No, it's g- it's g- I, I, I get too serious, so we need to, we need to cut the tension here. No. 200 00:32:57.936 --> 00:33:05.246 Um, what's the- Ethan, you should make a Spotify playlist of all the songs or artists mentioned in that prompt newsletter. I should. And actually- Mm... 201 00:33:05.316 --> 00:33:16.436 it's been cool because as someone who historically has not been able to listen to music, I was actually experimenting with it, um, the other day because one guy stuck out in particular, Tim Hecker, who I had never heard of before. 202 00:33:16.776 --> 00:33:16.806 Mm, mm-hmm. 203 00:33:17.156 --> 00:33:30.936 And I was like, it's weird that, like, it was cool if you guys read it, like several people mentioned, like, a couple of the same artists, and I was like, that's just really funny, and maybe again it speaks to at the end of the day, if everything filters through me, maybe I attract people who listen to Tim Hecker. 204 00:33:31.056 --> 00:33:38.546 I don't know. Um, but I had never heard of him before, and I'd never listened to him before, and I threw it on, and I was like, "Oh, I'm actually... Let's, like, work to this. This is the best." Yeah. 205 00:33:38.596 --> 00:33:47.476 So it, it benefited me. Um, so yeah, I was thinking about maybe doing something like that 'cause it seems like a natural thing. Are you guys repetitive listeners? 206 00:33:47.506 --> 00:33:57.516 'Cause that wa- that was, like, the crux of my answer was that I'm a repetitive listener. And I remember the first, my first memory of, like, really doing a repeat listen was, like, sixth grade. 207 00:33:58.076 --> 00:34:15.416 I was playing RuneScape for a couple hours, and I listened to Rammstein's "Du Hast" about 64 times on, on a loop. [laughs] Thank God. Thank God. Yeah. [laughs] Um, yeah. I'm a repeat listener for sure. 208 00:34:15.596 --> 00:34:21.906 I think it has actually changed slightly because of the newsletter- Mm... because I feel I get... 209 00:34:22.496 --> 00:34:33.316 I feel, especially a lot of music, like it is a media newsletter, but a lot of the people I'm talking to are musicians, and so I just end up getting pitched a lot of music, and I always want to give it an honest listen. 210 00:34:33.436 --> 00:34:38.096 So I do find- Mm... myself, um, spending a lot more time listening to new stuff. 211 00:34:38.416 --> 00:34:50.996 But, like, during the pandemic especially, um, there was just albums that I just, like, would listen to ad nauseam to the point that, like, I know every single minute of it. Um, and definitely single songs. 212 00:34:51.176 --> 00:35:00.216 Occasionally I, I will do that, but it's, it's hard 'cause again, I don't listen to music when I'm working, so the na- the amount of time I have to listen to music is actually pretty small. Mm-hmm. What about you, Daisy? 213 00:35:00.836 --> 00:35:11.956 Um, yeah. I definitely am a repeat listener. Um, like for example, everyone's been listening to the Geese album, but- Mm... it's like the second song of the album is actually, like, my favorite, and I don't, like... 214 00:35:12.696 --> 00:35:18.306 I'm not as big a fan of the song immediately after, so I've kind of just been, like- "Husbands"-... starting-... "Cobra"? 215 00:35:18.336 --> 00:35:23.786 Yeah, I like "Cobra," but "Husbands," like, "Husbands" is growing on me, but I didn't like it as much the first time I listened to it. Mm. 216 00:35:23.816 --> 00:35:33.026 So I, like, kind of would like start the album, and then I would just get to "Cobra," and then I would just, like, repeat it. I really love that album. Um, I find it... I don't know if you guys find this. 217 00:35:33.236 --> 00:35:41.416 I find it, uh, fairly abrasive. Like, it stresses me out to listen to it. Well, especially "Trinidad," the first song. I, I- Yeah... I'm not gonna lie, I often skip that song. [laughs] Yeah. 218 00:35:41.476 --> 00:35:49.776 I mean, I, I think I, like, love it musically, and when I have the chance to, like, sit down and, like, actually just not think about anything, I really love it. 219 00:35:50.156 --> 00:36:01.036 But I find I can't listen to Geese, like, if I'm walking or moving through the world- Mm... 'cause I just find it, like, it just is so in your face that I'm kind of like, "Oh, this is just stressing me out. I need..." 220 00:36:01.296 --> 00:36:06.516 It, it's, it's a very emotionally charged piece of art, I guess. And so there's stuff I would rather listen to on the street. 221 00:36:06.716 --> 00:36:14.816 They're playing in New York on Thursday and Friday, and tickets are, like, 300 plus dollars in resale. I'm gonna try to get one for one of the days. 222 00:36:14.896 --> 00:36:28.696 I mean, you know, maybe like two hours before the show, log on to the old Ticketmaster-... and see if they go to, like, 120. Um, I'm sure I'll be out of luck, but they're playing at the same venue I went to on Friday. 223 00:36:28.836 --> 00:36:36.616 I went to Cindy Lee, which was good. Oh. Nice. Nice. Yeah. From, from Edmonton, I'm pretty sure. From Edmonton. My hometown. Uh-huh. Pretty sure. 224 00:36:36.676 --> 00:36:53.360 Um, so it, it was great 'cause it's in this, it's in this, um-This venue, the Brooklyn Paramount, which reopened only about a year ago, I'd only been there once before to see Fontaines DC, and actually funny enough, it's mentioned in this, this, uh, the Harvey Suado story I, I was reading from earlier, um, because he lives in Brooklyn Heights. 225 00:36:53.620 --> 00:37:01.300 But, uh, yeah, it's, it's, it's big, it's grand. It's-- Live Nation owns it, and it, it's like 100 years old or something like that. I don't know. 226 00:37:01.320 --> 00:37:05.620 But, uh, it feels like the ceiling is so high that it feels like 500 feet high. 227 00:37:05.860 --> 00:37:14.240 Certainly it's not that high, but, you know, there's kind of this latticework and this blue light behind it, and so it's just huge and grand, and the floor slopes down towards the stage. 228 00:37:14.260 --> 00:37:18.200 And, you know, i-in terms of modern monetization techniques, there's a lot of bars. 229 00:37:18.220 --> 00:37:26.400 They've got a bar front right and front left of the stage, not to mention, you know, at, at the back, um, in, in by the two on the way down to the bathroom. So many bars. 230 00:37:26.420 --> 00:37:28.440 They really want to get your money, and, and they did. 231 00:37:28.450 --> 00:37:40.380 Uh, but, uh, yeah, it, it's stunning because it's just her on stage in this gold sequin sparkling dress on this massive room just doing like karaoke to the songs and then sometimes playing guitar. 232 00:37:40.940 --> 00:37:53.860 Uh, it was a really striking show. That's awesome. I had a similar experience, uh, in Vancouver recently. Um, Vancouver, I, I always sort of bemoan that I feel like the city, um, is sort of lacking in concert venues. 233 00:37:53.960 --> 00:37:59.460 We don't-- We have some, but especially for like mid-size artists, I find- Mm... it's a bit of a hard place to, to play in. 234 00:37:59.920 --> 00:38:08.400 But we have this really classic venue called The Commodore Ballroom, um, which has a lot of history, like Nirvana played there, like right as they were getting famous, which I always think about because I'm such a big Nirvana guy. 235 00:38:08.780 --> 00:38:11.170 But we saw, uh, Dijon there, and it was just- Mm... 236 00:38:11.170 --> 00:38:22.040 like mind-blowing and similar to what you were sort of describing, like, um, pretty historic venue, but like they've definitely done a really great job updating it, and the sound was just like absolutely perfect. 237 00:38:22.580 --> 00:38:34.480 And it just was like one of those moments, and I've been having them a lot lately, where you're just like, like, music is so good. Like, I actually... It sounds so basic, but like coming out of COVID- Yo, facts. 238 00:38:34.510 --> 00:38:41.640 [laughs] Like seeing bars, bars on the ponch. I-- Listen, I'm the last brave man. I'm willing to say that music is so good. 239 00:38:42.060 --> 00:38:55.190 [laughs] But, um, but there's just something about seeing live music when it's like, when it's done, and like I feel like twenty twenty-five in general has been actually such an unbelievably good year for music. Mm-hmm. 240 00:38:55.190 --> 00:38:59.480 And, um, I was just thinking about especially the quality of live music right now feels like 241 00:39:00.540 --> 00:39:11.260 maybe it's market forces, I don't know, but I feel like people are really performing at the top of their game in a way that like it would be so easy to come in and just do your backing track or do whatever. 242 00:39:11.350 --> 00:39:15.669 And like in the case of Dijon, it was like it fundamentally changed how I view the record. Mm. 243 00:39:15.680 --> 00:39:30.580 Like it was like I understand the record better now because I saw it live to the point that like I-- it, it went from being a record that I thought was just okay to being a record that I'm like, "This is a record that we'll probably all remember this year by because I saw this live." 244 00:39:30.800 --> 00:39:42.420 This is-- I mean, this is-- I've written about this in Creator Spotlight regarding like the creator economy, and somehow more and more people I've been speaking to all have some sort of community aspect, or they're doing like live events, meetups, et cetera. 245 00:39:42.470 --> 00:39:54.520 And in music, the what, what you're talking about, I mean, I think it all tracks to this, uh, rejection of, of, of social media and always being online and maybe even AI because you can't fake what's live, this kind of thing. 246 00:39:55.260 --> 00:40:06.920 I, uh, you know, that's only gonna continue to be a focus in the next, in the coming years, I believe. Everybody, everybody wants to go do stuff in person. Yeah, I think that's true. I mean, Ethan and I 247 00:40:07.820 --> 00:40:14.990 would spent, send Spotify links back and forth, and we haven't as much lately, but I feel like I've discovered less new music this year, and I really- Mm... 248 00:40:15.020 --> 00:40:27.580 directly attribute it to Spotify links, um, not displaying correctly on Twitter. Mm. And I realized, I was like, "Oh, maybe my interest in sharing music was performative after all." 249 00:40:28.220 --> 00:40:38.150 [chuckles] Because like if that really changed my ability to discover and share music, like what does that say about me? That's interesting. No, I think you're just getting old. [laughs] I don't think that. 250 00:40:38.150 --> 00:40:42.310 Or I'm getting old. But that's, that's how- I don't, I don't think you're getting old... I say that, I mean, that, that's me projecting. 251 00:40:42.420 --> 00:40:57.120 That's how I feel because I used to be such a, like, you know, in, in college and probably like the two years after, I was like, every day I would get home and open my computer and open like 10 different music blogs and like listen to everything I could find on either one, et cetera. 252 00:40:57.520 --> 00:41:07.840 And then in, I think 2017, I- Francis was on Pigeons and Planes. I, I was at a time. Um, but I- He was, he was on Dap-Tist. I, [laughs] I was. No, I wasn't listening to Dap-Tist. 253 00:41:08.160 --> 00:41:10.770 But, but then I got Spotify, and then I stopped. And then- Mm-hmm... 254 00:41:10.770 --> 00:41:27.480 y- and then, you know, it was still sought out new music, but like nowadays I'm listening to pretty much the same thing, um, because it, it was just, it was something I used to invest time in, and, like that time has been displaced by so many things, um, by having a job, by being in a relationship, by, you know, trying to 255 00:41:28.380 --> 00:41:36.360 do other things that are not like-- trying to pursue hobbies that aren't purely consumptive. I think the time investment thing is real for sure. 256 00:41:36.480 --> 00:41:50.640 Um, but I also think for me, like, oftentimes like, uh, I, it's, I'm, it's crazy how much of a, like, Instagram Stories guy I am, but like, um, both in terms of me sharing on Instagram Stories but also just- Never heard somebody admit that. 257 00:41:50.820 --> 00:41:58.740 [laughs] We're, again, we're, I, I'm, I'm maybe the most interesting guest you've ever had [laughs] in the history of- Oh, you heard it here first. No, I'm kidding. 258 00:41:58.880 --> 00:42:15.860 Um, but, uh, what I was gonna say is that, um, people will still share music on Instagram Stories, and I, if it's someone I know, like I'll actually tr- I've tried to consciously make an effort to like drop what I'm doing and at least go and like click on the link so that, um, I can like save it to a running playlist. 259 00:42:15.910 --> 00:42:26.650 Mm. Because I find that for me, um, a really quick way to like foster a connection with music is to actually think about it in terms of other people. So for instance, like- Mm... 260 00:42:26.680 --> 00:42:29.850 Daisy and I have connected over Spiritual Cramp and the fact that- Mm... 261 00:42:29.880 --> 00:42:38.270 we both really like the song Herbers on Holiday to the point that now when I listen to it, I think of Daisy quite regularly being like, "Oh, this is like a Daisy song." Mm-hmm. 262 00:42:38.270 --> 00:42:51.026 Um, and I've always been that way, but I think like-There's so much information out there right now, uh, and this applies to music, but it also applies to art and literature and whatever, is that I find that people need context in order... 263 00:42:51.026 --> 00:42:55.696 Like, they need-- The context is like a friction for you to grab onto, otherwise everything's- Yeah... like really slippery. Mm-hmm. 264 00:42:55.796 --> 00:43:06.886 And so even just having like a personal connection with someone who likes it makes me that much more likely to give it the time when I have the time. 'Cause to your point, Francis, like we're all busy. 265 00:43:06.916 --> 00:43:17.146 There's so much that we could be consuming. Everyone has like a running list of things that they should be caught up on. Um, but I find that that's a way for me to kind of stay on top of it. This just- Yeah... 266 00:43:17.166 --> 00:43:26.636 sort of unlocked something for me, thinking about Drew Austin's piece on slop that we syndicated into Dirt from his Substack. 267 00:43:26.716 --> 00:43:35.196 Some people took issue with the lead because he was talking about a store early in the morning playing R.E.M- Hmm... 268 00:43:35.276 --> 00:43:43.146 and how it felt like slop to him, 'cause even though he likes the band, it just didn't feel like contextual- Hmm... or appropriate for that moment. 269 00:43:44.196 --> 00:43:53.016 And I feel like so many people have tried to define what slop is, and maybe I'm just making this connection, 'cause like NOP rhymes with slop. 270 00:43:53.116 --> 00:44:01.946 But when we made the conceptual perfume as part of our Arena editorial package and we made it with Maxwell of UFO Perfumes, 271 00:44:03.196 --> 00:44:11.176 Maxwell felt strongly about bringing this concept to life of a perfume that would generate no new memories. Hmm. 272 00:44:11.356 --> 00:44:34.176 Um, and I, I had a friend ha- that had recently told me about, um, this instruction in code of no operation, which basically leaves a placeholder in the code, doesn't change it at all, it doesn't do anything to the system's processing, and that's why we named it NOP, because no operation gets shorted, shortened in most coding languages. 273 00:44:34.856 --> 00:44:45.856 So NOP, um, this idea of a perfume that generates no new memories, I think there's a relationship to slop there, right? 274 00:44:45.976 --> 00:44:59.716 'Cause you are talking about how music becomes meaningful to you when there's some context involved, it's a container for your taste through the taste of somebody else. There's some friction there by that association. 275 00:44:59.736 --> 00:45:12.446 And like I think a lot of what defines slop right now is a cultural experience or a cultural, uh, a piece of culture that generates no new memories or meaning. Hmm. 276 00:45:12.446 --> 00:45:26.456 And maybe this, this thing that we proposed as a conceptual perfume is a framework that we could apply across all different stuff, including like music and artwork and writing and books. What's that song- I feel that-... 277 00:45:26.596 --> 00:45:43.225 4:33? 4:33, yeah. Well, that's... But that was a meaningful container- Mm-hmm... because you're meant to fill in the silence with questions of like what, what is the fundamental, what is the, the s- uh, this sucks. 278 00:45:43.296 --> 00:45:55.936 I, I hate that I've been infused with like tech language, like minimal v- minimum viable product, but like what is the, the smallest unit of- Mm-hmm... a song that you could have? The smallest unit is silence. Yeah. 279 00:45:56.676 --> 00:46:11.296 Um, so I think, I mean, every adapter who like kinda copied that concept, like, yeah, they're kinda creating just like experimental slop, but w- he did it with so much meaning and context that it's hard for me to consider that nothing. 280 00:46:11.676 --> 00:46:13.876 Hmm. I, I guess I misinterpreted what you were saying. 281 00:46:13.996 --> 00:46:24.656 I, I, like, 'cause what I was picking up was that like the nothing is the meaning because, because, like, content, slop, you know, let's, let's imagine those, the, the overlap of those two words, right? 282 00:46:24.716 --> 00:46:31.376 Like, it's just meant to fill space, to fill time. As we were talking about that, I was thinking of, um- Right. Filler... 283 00:46:31.396 --> 00:46:41.216 I don't, I don't typically read Derek Thompson's newsletter, but his one this week, I listened to his appearance on the Semafor Media podcast, and they were talking about this, his idea of, like, everything is television now. 284 00:46:41.336 --> 00:46:47.316 So what does that mean? What is television? Um, he's referencing a, an earlier guy's idea. 285 00:46:47.836 --> 00:46:59.635 Um, but basically, his definition is that, like, television as a format was the first time that, um, there was no end and no beginning. You just turn on the thing, and it just flows through it. 286 00:46:59.695 --> 00:47:08.076 And television is defined by that flow as opposed to previous media, such as a book or a song, where there's a beginning and an end. It's a discrete unit, right? 287 00:47:08.196 --> 00:47:17.876 Um, whereas, like, televi- he says everything is television because whether it's TikTok or Reels or Spotify, you know, you, you s- you start the thing, but it was already there, and then it keeps going, right? 288 00:47:17.976 --> 00:47:21.956 There's always gonna be another song that's gonna play after the song you played on Spotify. Um, 289 00:47:22.916 --> 00:47:41.616 so I was, I started thinking about it, what you were saying in that context, and that maybe to have, like, an empty space in there is more meaning because it's, it's, like, taking back that distraction and taking you out of that flow of that, that constant kind of, like, crushing contextless flow. 290 00:47:42.556 --> 00:47:48.496 Well, I think it relies on your ability to f- form associations with it. Like, I'm thinking of, like, I, 291 00:47:49.496 --> 00:47:55.896 I have pieces of clothing that have holes in them that I would never throw out because I have too many associations with it. 292 00:47:56.376 --> 00:48:06.556 Whereas, like, if I buy a newer piece of, like, fast fashion or something that's cheaper and it gets a hole in it quickly, I feel nothing- Mm-hmm... throwing it out. It doesn't mean anything to me. 293 00:48:07.196 --> 00:48:14.636 Um, I have- Yeah, I can relate... you know, you read an entire book, and as soon as you close it, you don't remember anything that happened. You don't remember the characters' names. 294 00:48:15.276 --> 00:48:28.716 Um, so this, like, inability to form strong associations with mid-tier art, I think, has always existed. It's just the stuff that's, like, contextless is now proliferating. Mm-hmm. Yeah. 295 00:48:28.776 --> 00:48:37.256 I, I think that's definitely true, and I think part of that is true because, um, to make the stuff that feels, uh, that it, it sort of sticks with you 296 00:48:38.276 --> 00:48:44.516 kind of is just getting more and more expensive, either in terms of actual, like, production costs or in terms of time, right? 297 00:48:44.576 --> 00:48:53.868 Like, I think I associate slop with stuff that is generally-Kind of easier to produce, like, especially, like, in the TikTok context or something like that. 298 00:48:53.908 --> 00:49:03.508 Like, you have people who are using, um, like, AI or something to generate, like, a video, and to me I'm like, "Oh, that's, like, an easy low-cost thing that people are using to, like, populate their feed." 299 00:49:03.568 --> 00:49:11.818 Whereas, um, you know, maybe if we think about something like Paul Thomas Anderson, which makes me sound, sound like the whitest guy ever. But, like, if you think about, like- [laughs]... 300 00:49:11.828 --> 00:49:16.768 the recent Paul Thomas Anderson movie- I would have seen it a third time if I could, by the way. It wa- it was a great movie. Um, but 301 00:49:17.768 --> 00:49:27.778 even though I don't think it was perfect, it offered something that, like, other movies maybe don't, because you can just tell that, like, a lot more time and thought and money was, like, put into it. Mm-hmm. 302 00:49:27.778 --> 00:49:34.078 And so it resonates with you as an audience member in a different way. Obviously, it's also longer than, like, a TikTok or something like that. 303 00:49:34.088 --> 00:49:45.048 But, um, there have even been TikToks where I'm like, "Oh, like, this stuck with me because this person clearly put a lot of thought into it. It wasn't just sort of like a throwaway thing." Mm-hmm. 304 00:49:45.148 --> 00:49:56.208 I saw a movie, like, a week, week and a half ago just kind of on a whim. We went to Predator Badlands on a Friday night. Um, I had a good time at the movies. In, in two years I'm not gonna remember what... 305 00:49:56.548 --> 00:50:06.568 Not going to remember a single thing about that movie. Maybe in a few months I won't, right? Like, it was fun, but it was, like, it was like a three-star, three-star movie. You know, time at the movies. 306 00:50:06.588 --> 00:50:18.268 But even that- Yeah... like, I guess by dint of being a, like, discrete unit of entertainment that's, I don't know, two hours long, maybe not that long, but I went to the theater and saw. Like, that's... Is it slop? 307 00:50:18.348 --> 00:50:28.698 Like, maybe, but it's, I... To me, like, that, that length of time and that commitment required to consume it, and o- obviously not looking at my phone while doing it, um, 308 00:50:29.788 --> 00:50:34.648 that, like, separates it from the slop a little bit. But it shares a lot- Yeah... of qualities with slop. I think, I think slop... 309 00:50:34.808 --> 00:50:43.818 Yeah, as we're talking about this, like, I think slop, it to me maybe involves, like, a level of an investment both from the person creating it but also the person consuming it, right? Mm-hmm. 310 00:50:43.818 --> 00:50:54.588 'Cause I think, like, slop is tended, tends to be associated with, I think, passive consumption, so this idea of, like, you're just standing, you're just on your couch scrolling, and you're hardly registering what you're watching. 311 00:50:55.168 --> 00:51:02.208 Um, whereas, like, I think movies inherently they just take a bit more effort. Like, even a bad movie, it's kind of like bad pizza. 312 00:51:02.248 --> 00:51:09.148 Like, I think a bad movie, a lot of them there's something, maybe something interesting or something that's, like, memorable about it. And I think- Mm-hmm... 313 00:51:09.248 --> 00:51:20.618 in the '80s and the '70s when, um, people could produce movies more easily because there was, like, more companies to do it, you were able to have a movie that was, like, three stars, and it just was a brief escape. 314 00:51:20.668 --> 00:51:31.828 Like, we watched, um, that Julia Roberts movie, uh, [laughs] Mystic Pizza- Oh, yeah... the other, a few weeks ago. I've actually never seen that one. It's, like, totally fine. Like, it's charming in its own way. 315 00:51:31.908 --> 00:51:43.798 The story is silly. It's not like, um, it's not like an Oscar winner. It's like a kind of cool document of someone who would go on to be famous. Um, but it, like, really stuck with me because I was like 316 00:51:44.788 --> 00:51:58.448 we used to just be able to have a movie be a thing that it was like it was an escape for an afternoon, and it's, like, 90 minutes, and you were slightly entertained, and, like, there's a little bit of romance and a little bit of comedy, and that's all it had to be. 317 00:51:58.528 --> 00:52:07.697 It didn't have to be this sort of, like, earth-shattering, box office-breaking thing. And yeah, I just, I was sort of, like, lamenting that. 318 00:52:07.708 --> 00:52:19.988 It just feels like, uh, as a guy who loves movies, like, the stakes are just so high that it's like you can't just have that stuff. He's ensuing, like, Lindy man. Like- [laughs]... we used to escape into the movies. 319 00:52:20.108 --> 00:52:32.508 Now we escape from them. I forgot Lind- Period... I forgot Lindy man existed. Shut out Lindy man. Well, not Lindy. [laughs] We went to a matinee, a random matinee of Good Will Hunting- Mm... like a month ago now. 320 00:52:32.608 --> 00:52:40.048 Oh, perfect movie. Um- So good... so we were looking at what was showing over the weekend, and I was like, "Well, they are doing a showing of Good Will Hunting for some reason." 321 00:52:40.708 --> 00:52:53.158 And it was, like, more appealing than everything else. Um, I mean, we do wanna see the PTA film, but I felt like I was a little concerned by how long it was. 322 00:52:53.288 --> 00:53:00.628 I don't like to watch really, really long- Feels like it's ha-... movies in the theater... feels like it's half that length, so well paced. Unless there's, like, a- [laughs]... an intermission. Mm. 323 00:53:01.148 --> 00:53:09.568 Well, yeah, but then you, like, have to go to the bathroom, and then... I don't know. Whatever. Like- Yeah. Anyways, I- Anyway, like-... no, I get it. I get it, yeah... there was 324 00:53:11.008 --> 00:53:23.768 five or six people at the Good Will Hunting screening, including us, and, um, there was a mouse. [laughs] But [laughs] and then- To be expected... at one point in the middle of the film, 325 00:53:24.768 --> 00:53:33.318 one of the ushers came in and took a flashlight and walked around the whole periphery of the room and then walked out. I was like, "Is he looking for the mouse, or is that just like-" Mm... 326 00:53:33.358 --> 00:53:39.668 "they have to do that in case people are, like, doing drugs in there?" Anyway, it was better than I remembered it. I had seen it before. 327 00:53:39.788 --> 00:53:46.248 And I was like, we were walking out, and I was like, "That is a film that I will never, ever forget. That is a film that will always stay with me." Mm. 328 00:53:46.608 --> 00:53:59.868 And I do think there's, there's something about that that is not necessarily true in everything- Sure... that gets put out in contemporary streaming culture. Yeah, absolutely. I think, um, 329 00:54:00.768 --> 00:54:10.638 it, this is something I think about a, a little bit, um, when it comes to, like, publishing and contributing to, like, even just, like, cluttering people's inboxes and being like, 330 00:54:11.668 --> 00:54:22.808 like, what are you saying and why are you saying it, and, like, is it worth taking up space- Mm... um, in the digital ecosystem? Even though, 'cause, you know, like, email is free. 331 00:54:22.848 --> 00:54:26.128 It doesn't cost me anything, um, to send you something. 332 00:54:26.608 --> 00:54:35.208 But just being like when I'm on the other side of that equation, like, I do th- I do sometimes worry, especially with, like, newsletters, like, I think we're gonna hit a point where people are getting really sick of them. 333 00:54:35.368 --> 00:54:45.158 And like what do we- Well, it costs your attention. Yeah. And attention- Mm... is the most scarce resource. Mm-hmm. That's so true. People run out of attention before they run out of money. Most people. Yeah. 334 00:54:45.168 --> 00:54:50.388 That is definitely true. This is maybe too long of a topic to... We're, we're, we're nearing the end of the podcast. 335 00:54:50.468 --> 00:55:01.124 [laughs] But I very quicklyWant to ask what you guys think, 'cause I was just writing about this for today's Creative Spotlight, um, this idea of the content economy as a term. And I... 336 00:55:01.404 --> 00:55:17.283 to me, it, it contains the creator economy and is contained by the attention economy. But it, it came into my lexicon here because Tyler started using it, Tyler Denk, in the context of Beehive's new updates. 337 00:55:17.884 --> 00:55:29.264 Um, and to me, it's useful because, like, a friend of the pod, Ari Rubin, when I, when I worked with him at Air, he once said to me, I'll, I'll always remember this, like, "We're not competing for... 338 00:55:29.284 --> 00:55:33.504 We're not competing with other companies like ours. We're competing for anything you can look at on your phone." Right? 339 00:55:33.544 --> 00:55:39.564 Which is, like, he's talking about kind of the attention economy, and really the content economy because we're making content. 340 00:55:40.004 --> 00:55:51.024 Um, but yeah, Daisy, you grimaced when I said that it, it contains the creator economy and is contained by the attention economy. What was that? [sighs] I just think it's another way of naming things. Mm-hmm. Yeah. 341 00:55:51.034 --> 00:55:59.574 Like, what's the phenomenon that we're really describing here, and how many coinages have there been? Quite a few. I might... I guess 342 00:56:00.484 --> 00:56:15.824 if I could offer the argument, it's that the creator economy may be referred to, uh, when people were just posting on social media platforms and it was individuals who were kind of these independent creators that you could pit against media organizations and companies with resources. 343 00:56:15.844 --> 00:56:27.104 Mm-hmm. But then it becomes the content economy when those creators become media companies, and the media companies are posting, like creators, and the word creator becomes meaningless. 344 00:56:27.184 --> 00:56:33.124 Which I guess is what I'm really saying. So is content decoupled from personalities? Yeah. Well, would it, uh... 345 00:56:33.184 --> 00:56:43.144 I don't know if I include this in the newsletter- It's almost, well, it seem, it seems more like you're shifting the focus from creating to just this idea of, like, almost like content is the main, 346 00:56:44.064 --> 00:56:47.104 the main actor or the main driver of the economy. Well, so, so yeah. 347 00:56:47.144 --> 00:57:01.644 So, so the, the point, the reason of, to do it, I think I wrote this in the piece, is that it becomes less about the source of production than the site of consumption, because the site of consumption flattens the context of the sources of production. 348 00:57:02.284 --> 00:57:12.154 I don't know. I guess, I guess for me it's like, it's interesting, and maybe it's true, but I guess like, I don't know. 349 00:57:12.204 --> 00:57:20.034 I guess as someone who, like, is operating within the economy, whether he likes it or not- [laughs]... I, um, I don't totally see how it would help. 350 00:57:20.084 --> 00:57:29.704 Like, it, I don't see how, like, that understanding really furthers either my work or, like, establishes any... Like, I don't see how it's, like, particularly useful- Mm-hmm... I guess. 351 00:57:30.184 --> 00:57:47.844 To me, it does make sense in the context of, um, every company is a media company now. Yeah. Like, but I think maybe I just don't think the word content is descriptive enough to encapsulate 352 00:57:49.524 --> 00:58:05.234 the action of what's happening. Mm-hmm. Um, it's not verby, doesn't feel verby, and so in the content economy, like, what is the predominant verb? Creating. No, actually, I'm wrong. It's consuming. Right. Mm-hmm. 353 00:58:05.234 --> 00:58:13.254 So then- Yeah... that's the consumer economy. [laughs] Brian Mor- I mean, there's so many names. There's, I, I could... Okay, we should probably stop it soon, 'cause I could spend all day doing this. 354 00:58:13.514 --> 00:58:24.514 Brian Morrissey calls a similar thing the information space, which I, which I think is- Um, well, that has no rizz and will never get taught. [laughs] Anyways, content economy is useful to me as somebody who's making 355 00:58:25.444 --> 00:58:36.404 content about creators and, and really- All right... you know- So change your newsletter to Content Spotlight. No, I'm gonna call it The Content Economist. We already bought the URL. We'll see, though. [laughs] Anyways. 356 00:58:36.424 --> 00:58:44.454 All right. Well, this has been content, Leon. [laughs] Thank you so much for tuning in. I hope, I hope you'll leave content. Before, oh, before we go, I, I have one question for the two of you. B. 357 00:58:44.584 --> 00:58:50.924 Fink's gonna do a commercial read. Oh. He secretly sold this to an advertiser. Oh. Yeah. Uh, I wanna talk to you a little bit about BetterHelp. No, I'm just kidding. 358 00:58:51.424 --> 00:59:04.444 [laughs] Um, my question is, uh, I was trying to think about it. Do you guys have a name for your fans? Dirtlings. Dirtlings? Dirtlings. Dirt bags. Um, but for, for Taste- Dirt bags if they're really pissing me off... 359 00:59:04.464 --> 00:59:14.984 but for Tasteland specifically. Mm. Does Tasteland's audience have- Tasteheads. Tasteheads? Ta- tasties? Yeah. [laughs] Taste- I wanted, I, I wanted to- Taste testers? I wanted to submit- [laughs]... taste, taste buds. 360 00:59:15.104 --> 00:59:22.484 I wanted to submit taste buds- Taste buds... for your, for your consideration. Okay. That's really good. That's really cute. Taste buds is good. Almost too cute. Yeah. Yeah. 361 00:59:22.644 --> 00:59:27.004 [laughs] I knew you would hate it, Daisy, that's why I asked. All right. Cute taste buds. Well, taste buds, we'll see you next week. Ciao. 362 00:59:29.084 --> 00:59:41.344 [upbeat music]