[rock music] Mm, honey. It tastes just like it costs. Welcome to Tasteland. I am one of your hosts, Francis Zear, joined by...
Daisy Alioto. Mm-hmm. And today we are going to be talking with Eliza Barbinel, who is one of the co-founders, co-editors of CAKE Zine. Um, but she'll be here in a few minutes. Uh, first we have some things to get into.
Number one- We have a lot to get into. We have a lot to get into, a lot to get into in the intro chat. Um, one thing that I want to dwell on for a second is... So CAKE Zine, it's a magazine.
It's like, you know, physical only, very like, uh, community contextualized. And of course that made me think of the classic United Airlines magazine, Hemispheres.
Um, United- I've flown United mostly in my life just because that's like the main airline where I'm from. Um, and so I, I was...
I just wanted to look up Hemispheres, what's up with it, and lo and behold, this last month, September, was the last time they would publish physically. Uh, and they've been going since 1992, which I didn't- Damn.
Pour one out. Pour out a tiny bottle of vodka for that. Pour out, yeah, pour out a tiny bottle of vodka- [laughs]...
into some Diet Coke, uh, in a plastic glass with ice, or no ice, as your preference may be, uh, for Hemispheres. Um, yeah, I don't know. I, whatever. It, it, it was, it was a magazine. It was okay.
I would flip through it for five minutes every time I was on a flight, but I always really liked that.
But I thought one thing that was really interesting, um, was that in 2018 they'd changed the paper stock to make each copy one ounce lighter because that would save the airline $300,000 per year across all their flights, which makes sense.
Um, and you know, really do you have to pour one out? Because ultimately it's a, you know, it's you're saving trees now too. The, you know, nobody really needed this magazine.
I mean, look, I don't have the same associative chain between CAKE and Hemisphere- [laughs]... because I feel like CAKE is almost- You do, you do... the opposite. But I've- It is very-...
I think we should tell Eliza about the saving $300,000 thing, because- Yeah... that's fascinating... 'cause she could maybe save $300,000 if she did, went digital only.
[laughs] If she went digital, but that's not the point. The point is- No, that's not the point... doubling down on print in 2024, and I'm- Yeah... excited to talk to her about- Yeah...
the advantages of that, and the challenges. But in the digital media sphere, an abundance of things have happened. I don't even know where to start. I mean- Well, you... Okay, wait.
You wanted to talk about the New York Mag piece that came out yesterday, two days ago, uh, once I said that. I wanna talk about the photos. The photos, yeah. Um, so unflattering.
I, I mean, I've seen a lot of variations of this, which is like people who are younger. I mean, there's younger folks. When I say younger, I mean around our age, which is- Mm-hmm... 30s, early 30s people in this piece.
The majority were not, um, saying... You know, they were asked, but, um, they opted out because of the photos.
Um, and just to paint a picture for the listener, if you haven't seen these or you don't have a subscription- The kind of sepia toned. Sepia toned, mouth open. Mouth- I love them, by the way... wide open.
Yeah, but I mean, when it's not you, right? Yeah. Well, okay. The, you know, don't we all wish that we were in a position to be photographed unflatteringly for y- Look, if you want a flattering photo- I don't. Mm...
No, I know, but not, not you. Okay, the proverbial, the royal you. Like, you know, that's what like having the New Yorker sketch portraits of everybody on their staff is for, right?
Like, y- go to your own publication for a nice flattering photo. I think these, I- Well-... I enjoyed looking at these photos. [laughs] Francis, I think you're underestimating first of all how vain I am. Mm-hmm.
Second of all, I mean, the risk is people do just go to their own publication, right? Yeah. Like- They do a Beyoncé. Although I will say I think
somebody like a MrBeast who came up gaming the YouTube algorithm by doing a mouth open, uh- Mm-hmm... thumbnail, which I've, which we banned Tom from doing for us, God bless him, um, might, might not care.
But yeah, I mean, that's the, that's the drawback- Well, okay... of being in the spotlight. Well, wait, wait. But I would say for, no- For, for that-... for this particular thing- Yeah...
for this particular thing, I think the better signal is to not have been included and have people asking why you weren't included. Mm-hmm. That's what Walden and I settled on. Yeah. That is, that is what you settled on.
That's what I settled on too with, with myself. Um- And then he sent me a screenshot of his boyfriend texting him, "Where is Daisy?" Mm-hmm.
Well, you know, in 20 years- Not with my mouth open in New York Magazine, that's where I am. Yeah.
Look, I mean, there's like this thing that is like such a mantra of like the creator, of con- being a creator I think, that I- Mm-hmm...
have read and like repeated many times that's like, "Don't kill the part of yourself that's cringe. Kill the part of yourself that cringes." So maybe like this photo shoot is like just, is the that.
It's, you know, you're, it's forcing these people to... I also just don't think these photos were that bad. Like, I don't know.
It's, uh- Okay, to, yeah, to be serious, I think it is, it's flexing what New York Magazine can do, and- That they have the clout to get people to do this...
that they decide on the ultimate portrayal, which is- Mm-hmm... and with these people it's, it's, I think it's supposed to show that there's like this ugly side to power brokering, right? Yeah.
Like, I mean, this is a cl- they kinda did a classic politician treatment on them. They really doubled down on realism.
I mean, I did see some people saying, "Does this really need to be the cover story like a few weeks before the election?" Mm-hmm. Um, but I, I think the sense I get- It's a New York thing...
of New York Magazine, especially in recent years, is like this is not, they're not bidding for subscriptions from Middle America, and this is the media talking to itself.
Even when the cover story isn't on the media, New York Magazine is the media talking to itself. Yeah. Like, let's be honest. So it's kind of a classic treatment.
Um, but speaking of [laughs] the media talking to itself, uh, New York Times wrote an entire article about Tina Brown joining Substack. Yeah. And to me, like this is the top signal.
I do feel like I've been a little bit unfair to Substack. Remind, remind the listener, who is Tina Brown?Oh, [sighs] Tina Brown. Tina Brown. Oh, God. Okay.
So you gotta listen to, on tape, the Tina Brown diaries, or you can read it in words. Mm-hmm.
Um, she was a editor of The New Yorker, which a lot of people forget, but she really made her name at, um- For a couple decades, right? Mm, I don't think for that long. Might've just been one. I could be wrong. Anyways.
She made her name at Vanity Fair, and ultimately The Daily Beast. Mm-hmm.
And her famous thing at Vanity Fair was, like, really pushing this idea of the mix, which is the highbrow, lowbrow, you know, long form [clicks tongue] celebrity profile, literary story, celebrity shock story, true crime story- Mm-hmm...
um, you know, dispatch from- A lot of people in the comments of that article-... co- country embroiled in a civil war. What?
A lot, a lot of people in the comments of that article were decrying her as, like, destroying the reputation of The New Yorker, making The New Yorker more of a, you know, everyday rag.
Yeah, they blame her for that, but you know, everyone needs a scapegoat- Mm-hmm... especially Conde Nast. And, um, I don't know, like, I think their cartoons are worse than anything- [laughs]... that she [laughs]
possibly did. Mm-hmm. But, um, anyway, I, except for my favorite one, uh, the guy who, the, um, the rigatoni, and he's on the phone, and he says- The-... "You silly, you crazy bastard" Yeah. That is a good one.
Fundamentally changed the course of Western art. Mm-hmm. But anyway, I think, like, I mean, I might have been unfair to Substack.
I think if anything though, I take them at their word, and I take them very seriously, and that's why- Mm-hmm... I criticize them so much.
Um, somebody compared it to all of the articles that were written when Instagram was really new, where they would, like, write an article any time a celebrity joined Instagram. Yeah, yeah.
And now of course, it's totally non-newsworthy. And I think when we get to the point where it's like it's not newsworthy when people join, people are just using it- Yeah...
then Substack will sort of like settle into their reputation as a tool, and people will sort themselves accordingly.
Uh, but right now, like we've said before, they sort of like to straddle the line between being publisher and tool, and like, you can run your business off of it, but we're gonna sort of claim, claim you a bit. Mm-hmm.
And, I mean, Bari Weiss is running her business off of it, and apparently she was just valued at $250 million. Yeah. But- Well, which I-... uh, the Free Press was. Yeah. Yeah.
I wonder, I'm really curious at the point where it's like, 'cause, like, a, an, a big appeal to, like, Substack, right, is that you, you don't have to, like, think about, like, marketing or growth as much because it's, it's, because it's a social media app.
Right- So-... but you always have to think about that. And I think, I was thinking- Yeah... like, what are examples of other platforms where people have run their business off of it in their entirety?
Well, but- And I think YouTube is a good example... sort of, YouTube is. But I think- Yeah... y- yes. And YouTube is a little more, I mean, uh, all of them But you have to be doing world building off of- Yeah...
of- But the point is, with Substack's-... outside the platform...
like 10% fee, it's like I wonder at one point, at what point where it's like, oh, I'm making so much money that that 10% fee, I could get more of that back if I paid an employee to like, handle all this admin for me.
Um, you know, I, I, I guess that'd be, maybe you'd have to be making a million bucks. I don't know. Anyways, um, you also wanted to talk about some Playboy news before- Mm-hmm... our guest gets here. What was that?
I did, but I think there was like one more thing that I wanted to say. Oh. Oh, about Tina Brown. Sorry. It was, no, it was about the New York Magazine thing- Yeah...
where there was like one subhead in the article, 'cause you know they like bold the takeaways, and it was like, "Make things worth paying for." [laughs] And I was like, oh my God.
Like- Like, nobody ever thought of that before. Like, shut the fuck up, right? Yeah.
Like- I, I saw on Twitter right before, right before I hopped on here too, like, a, some, a, a, a picture of, I forget where the headline was from, but an article about Netflix.
Netflix's new strategy: make less movies, and make them better. F- fewer, better things. Uh-huh. Thank you. I mean, none of it was really surprising. But yeah, so Playboy, um, Hugh Hefner's grandson?
It was his son, I think. His son, sorry. His son, Cooper- Yeah... is trying to buy Playboy back for 100 million. I mean, I don't know if you've heard me talk about this before. I have not.
What I, what I've heard from people at Playboy is, um, they IPO'd at like a really unfortunate time. Um, I think, I'm like Googling right now- Yeah... to make sure this is correct. Yeah.
It was during the p- [laughs] they went public during the pandemic. Like, nobody wants to buy stock in Playboy, sorry. Like- They went public only during the pandemic?
That seems like I would've thought it would've been longer. 2021. Horrible time to IPO. Mm-hmm.
And so now they're sort of stuck between being an e-commerce company and a tech company, because they also, nobody knows this, they have an OnlyFans competitor. Oh. I believe it's called something like Centerfold.
Much to their chagrin. Nobody knows this. And so, and the, the thing that they stopped doing is the one thing that they're fucking famous for, which is publishing their magazine- Yeah...
which an enterprising person could do on a million dollars a year. It does not make sense. And they- Are you applying for a job right now? They license the bunny. Yeah, Cooper, call me.
I have a soft spot for Playboy because they are the only magazine that ever paid me $2 a word. Oh, wow. They sent me to Lithuania. I had a wonderful adventure- What?... writing for them. I wrote two stories for them.
What was the feature you wrote? That was the story about Užupis, the micro nation. Okay. Interesting. I think I've talked to you about that before. So I will always have a soft spot for them. Mm-hmm.
And their archive are just absolutely incredible. Um, I don't know why, I mean, why wouldn't they sell at least the rights to publish Playboy Magazine, 'cause they're not doing it. Yeah. And- Well- Yeah...
uh, speaking of a, you know, erotica focused kind of, you know, small niche magazine- Ooh... maybe the next editor is Eliza Barbarel. Uh, our guest is here, so. Oh, let her in. Let's let her in.
I'm sure she's gonna be thrilled with this intro. She's gonna have some thoughts. There she is. Hey. Hello. Nice to meet you. Hi.
To start, I wanna ask you both a couple questions, because, uh, this is the week where you're doing the Cake Scene Dirt, um, little miniseries, Dessert After Dark, which is part of Dirt's nightlife review series.
So Daisy, um, do you wannaAnd tell me and the listener what Nightlife Review is first.
Well, it's so funny 'cause I was gonna come on, and I was gonna give this huge speech about, like, how happy I am that, like, this collaboration went well.
'Cause every time I collaborate with people that I like, I'm always so afraid that we will be so annoyed with each other by the end of it- [laughs]... that we won't...
like, we'll- I'll lose them as a creative collaborator, but, like, also a friend. And then, you know, I don't know if Eliza will, like, like me after this podcast, but that's okay. [laughs] Um- Of course I will.
[laughs] No, I, um, the Nightlife Review was a concept that we came up with at Dirt because we wanted a few different pop-up publications, almost like publication within a publication- Mm-hmm...
that we could do when we had an interesting a- interested advertiser or partner. But, like, when we didn't, then people wouldn't be expecting it to be kind of like publishing in perpetuity.
And we sort of set this precedent that the Nightlife Review would show up in different mediums. Mm-hmm. So the first one we did in collaboration with Elsewhere, which is a nightlife venue- Oh, yeah...
in Brooklyn, and that was online and in print.
Um, and then I was approached by Harrison Malkin, who's an audio producer, asking if we would ever do audio at Dirt, and ended up doing, um, an audio edition of the Nightlife Review with, like, different postcards of a night out around the world.
They were audio postcards, and, um- Mm. So good... we worked with Zora on that. And then I have admired Cake Scene for a long time.
I was trying to think of ideas that could work at the intersection of our two worlds, and this idea of a nightlife review focused on dessert came up, and we were all enthusiastic about it, so we started jamming on it.
And- Strawberry jamming on it, as, as it were. [laughs] Strawberry jamming on it. I'm so excited with how it came out. Hopefully, Eliza, you feel the same way.
But it really is the perfect intersection of both publications and, uh, you know, we even have some shared contributors, which is always amazing. Yeah.
Eliza, is this a, like, original, like, new just for this stuff that you guys have been putting out, or is it from some of the past issues? It's all original, like, online first content except for- Oh...
Paloma Ghosh's piece of, like, a sapphic M&M fan fiction is- [laughs]... from ca- uh, the last issue of Cake Scene called Candyland.
Um, and that one just felt, like, very appropriate to share in a Dessert After Dark context 'cause it's, like, asking- Mm... what the M&Ms are, are doing, um, you know, like, out of the bag, off-screen, after hours.
Um, and I would say, like, Tanya and I were really excited when Daisy came to us with this idea because we had been talking about doing, uh, we call it Midnight Snack as, like, a theme for a future issue.
Like, it's been something that for almost two years now we've talked about wanting to do, but just because of the cadence of the issues and the way that the themes often intersect with each other, like, we have another theme that we want to pair with that, and the just timing hadn't been right for that.
So we were really excited of this almost as, like, a proof of concept to get to kind of immerse into this world. Um, I, like, am someone who is very interested in nightlife, like, personally and professionally.
And, like, Tanya and I- Mm... have even done a dessert pop-up, like, at a rave in New York before. So it's all kind of, like, uh, topics that are already close to our heart. Um, the...
So the Midnight Snack one, I know that, like, it's all been, Cake Scene has been, like, all about dessert. Like, the first one was Sexy Cake, right? Then Wicked Cake, and then,
uh, Humble Pie, Tough Cookie, Candyland, and now the next one is Daily Bread. So that's, like, not dessert- Yeah... for the first time, right? Or is it still a- Bread's a dessert. Bread's a dessert. I... Well, maybe.
I mean- Not when I think of it... it's been variable. Like, in Humble Pie, for example, um, we had, like, Adam Dava writing about pizza pie, which is, like, a pie- Mm... in name, but obviously- Yeah... not a dessert.
Yeah. We had the, um, pop-up, Ha Duc Viet, that's opening a restaurant here in New York, did a recipe for pate cho, which is, like- Mm... a Vietnamese savory meat pie. So we've kind of veered.
I think dessert is still kind of, like, the easiest way to describe what we do, but it's almost more of, like, single issues on baked items. Yeah. Midnight Snack obviously would be even further away from that. Yeah.
It is. So that's the reason why we haven't done it yet is just that, like, we've been enjoying the single issue topics. But I think, like, there is a, there is a future where it's more, um, abstract in that kind of way.
Mm-hmm. Ha Duc Viet, by the way, is probably the best restaurant meal I had out last summer when they were at Rollo's. Um, I, I, like, almost went to so many of their pop-ups, but that was the only one.
It was really good. Yeah. We, like, are groupies and go to [laughs] all of their pop-ups and are very excited for the restaurant to open. So tell us about the decision to focus on print.
Obviously, there's a lot of headlines right now about, you know, print is back, and it's the sort of logical pendulum swaying away from all digital experiences. But you have been in the world of print for a long time. So
what are the unique challenges or benefits of being print focused in 2024? Yeah. I mean, it's, like, on a financial level, like, objectively stupid, I would say.
[laughs] Because printing is, um, not, like, the best thing to do from that perspective. But I think from the beginning we were interested in doing print for a couple reasons.
Uh, I come from a print media background, or print and online, but I had been leaving Condé Nast to go freelance when Tanya and I started talking about Cake Scene.
Um, and I know that we wanted to spend time working on a project and then make it feel special when it released.
And I think print is a nice way of, like-Uh, having a longer timeline, like, just by necessity, and then being able to really celebrate something because it is something you can hold in your hands and really kind of, like, make space for.
Like, I feel like I've seen magazines try to do, like, digital covers, for example, but it just never hits as well as it does in print.
Um, I think also, like, we're very inspired by certainly other, like, indie print magazines, um, like Lucky Peach when they were around, or Apartamento, and then also cookbooks, and the fact that cookbooks are this- Mm...
treasured physical object that, like, the more beat up it gets in your home, the more it's smudged and ripped and torn, like, that's how well-loved it is.
Um, and I think that we just like the idea of making something that could exist in its own world that you wouldn't be getting texts on the same screen or, like, having other tabs open, that you could sit down with a print magazine and just kind of exist in that way.
I love the idea of a print product being a single tab product. Mm. I've never heard it put that way before. Yeah. But I do feel, absolutely feel the same way.
I feel like, so the world, you're talking about, like, the world of it, and, you know, I, I was admittedly only familiar with Cake Zine in the sense of, like, seeing it on Instagram and people at events.
You know, Pierce Abernathy posting about it, et cetera, that kind of thing. Um, but, you know, reading about it yesterday, and there's the T-shirts, uh, which I really like.
Actually, is there, is there one of the T-shirts that, um, that you... is your favorite or, like, that you wear the most? Yeah, definitely, like, the Death by Chocolate shirt- Okay...
is, I think, like, the most popular one, which was the first shirt that we did. We have been really lucky to collaborate with, uh, Miles and Vivian at, like, Social Species- Mm-hmm...
is the name of the design studio here in New York. They do them all, right? Yeah, yeah.
All of the shirts, and they do them all, and sometimes we give them an idea, or sometimes we just give them the issue and see what they come up with.
But for Wicked Cake, I really wanted to do a metal band T-shirt, but for a recipe instead of a band- Mm... um, which was the idea for the Death by Chocolate shirt, which is a recipe that Sola Olawale did for that issue.
So the front just says, "Death by Chocolate," in, like, a Slayer-type font. Yeah. And then the back is stylized like tour dates, um, but it is just the entire recipe on the back of the shirt. And I think, like,
we expanded since then, but honestly, we could've just, we could just do a band tee for every issue because I think it speaks to the way that, like, people rep, um, family recipes- Mm... or favorite recipes- Mm...
or food in the same way that, like, other parts of culture are kind of being venerated and used as a bonding point in that kind of way. Yeah. I really like the Humble Pie one.
Um, but, so okay, s- to talk about, like, more, like, what Cake Zine is for a second. So there's recipes, there's, like, fiction, there's nonfiction, there's interviews. What, like... A- a- across all of that, do you...
is there, like, a specific, I don't know, thing that defines a Cake Zine piece? Good question. It's interesting because...
Yeah, I love that question, 'cause we really, you know, deal in having so much variety, but it's all around a really niche theme. And I...
You know, when I talk to writers who are interested in pitching for the issue, I often say that we really kind of delight in, like, niche topics that broaden out to be relevant in other kinds of ways.
Um, also stories that, like, have a concept of place- Mm... like, where we come from, where these trends come from, like, the history of something, but then bringing it into a contemporary way I think we enjoy.
And then there always are some wildcard pieces in the issue that are, like, pretty far afield from the theme as one might expect, but then actually, like, relate to it in a very deep way. Yeah. Um,
I feel like there's a good example in Tough Cookie that is a story that's called, like, Death of a Cookie or UOG From a Cookie, and it's about, um, like, browser cookies, like, when you go to a website and click accept cookies, and, like, how they're actually becoming less, lesser known in the online sphere because we have just kind of advanced in our ways of, um, surveillance and marketed advertising.
And so that was in, like, our Tough Cookie issue, even though it's not about an edible cookie at all.
I think every magazine that we do has one or two stories like that, that maybe seem, like, far afield, but then they actually kind of connect to this deeper intersection of theme. Cornflake in the cookie, as it were.
Um- [laughs] Yeah... so another thing I, I understand about it is that that it's, like, kind of, like, in contrast to... I mean, you work at Taste. It's in contrast to a Taste, to a Bon Appétit, to an Eater, whatever.
Like, it's kind of, like, a literary mag, kind of erudite approach to food and thinking about food culture, where it's things that wouldn't necessarily be published in these other outlets.
Like, that's kind of, like, a function of it, right? Like, part of why, part of why it's this, like, treasured thing and why you guys wanted to start it. Yeah.
I think, like, certainly for myself, like, I was leaving Bon Appétit at Condé Nast in a time of, like, uh, very public turmoil for the brand.
And I think in general, part of being at a company like Condé, uh, is, like, you know, advertisers and Anna Wintour and all of these people that are dictating, like, what the magazine would be.
And I think it was just really fun to think about, like, publishing poetry or fiction or, or erotic Eminem fan fiction, these kinds of things that, like, a major food publication [laughs] like, you know, obviously wouldn't dare to do for that kind of reason.
Um- Mm-hmm...
and I think part of that also is the kinds of people that we work with, which is, you know, certainly we have traditional food writers, but also novelists who have never written about food before or chefs who have never written in that kind of way or, like, all kinds of people who kind of fit in the intersections of the themes.
Um, you didn't wanna do garlicky beans, easy weeknight dinner [laughs] rinse, repeat? Garlicky, leaky- [laughs]... crispity, crunchity. Well, working with the chefs- Jammy tomatoes.
That's the one that really- Working with, like, people who haven't wr- written these kind of things before, right?
S- sorry, does that con- does that, like, you know, present, like, a fun or unique editorial challenge to, like-Put these things together and, like, make them publishable? Or like, I mean, not- Publishable? Francis.
That's kind of insulting. That's insulting. Let me, let me take that back. That's insulting. [laughs] Um, but you know what I mean. Is it, like, a different challenge to, to work with people who might be, like, first...
This is the first time they've been published? Mm. Yeah. I think there's different versions of that.
There are people who have never been published anywhere who have a really great story to tell, for example, and then it's just about, like, working with them in that way.
I think also working with, like, established writers who don't normally write about food can present- Mm...
interesting challenges because there are things that, like, as someone who works in food media, like, I know to be a trope, um, a grandma story, for example.
[laughs] Like, any grandma, even if your grandma is exceptional and something insane happened- We've heard it... like, it's just such a... Exactly. Um, or I think- Mm...
like, they're just, especially even though we don't do cake anymore, I think talking about baked goods and sweets, there are a lot of things you can fall into, right, about, um, how it's making a moment feel special, or how it makes you feel super at calm to do that are true for everybody, which is why they're a trope, but, like, I wouldn't publish that in the magazine because then it's not really, like, adding to the conversation.
So I think sometimes there are people who are really great because they don't write about food that much, but that means that, um, there are things that may seem obvious or vice versa that we just kind of work together on.
But I think, like, that's the, the joy of the magazine.
One of the things that, like, we are really committed to on this podcast is, like, that media literacy includes, like, understanding the economics of your favorite publication, and, like, just because, like, you know, your favorite lit mag has the same number of Instagram followers as, like, Paris Review, it does not mean they have the same resources or, you know, there's so many examples of this.
So I mean, to the extent that you're comfortable, can you talk about how many people actually work on this and how, like, how do you keep going? Like, h- where's the... Does the funding come from subscriptions?
Does it come from ticket sales? Like, what's the sort of broad strokes breakdown of, like, how you make it work? Yeah. Definitely.
I think, like, that's something that Tanya and I talk about a lot because we want more indie publications to exist, but also people to understand why they don't or, like, why it's important to support them.
Um, we started Cake Scene... Also, like, I think it's important to say, like, we really didn't think we were starting a publication or a brand.
Like, we just wanted to make something together and with people that we admire, and then we're lucky to have people that, you know, wanted to support it and saw value in it.
So the first issue, nobody got paid at all, and we released pre-orders, um, before we sent it to print. Mm. So then we had the money to print it, like, by releasing the pre-orders- Mm-hmm... early.
Um, and in the moment in time it was, like, coming out of the pandemic, like, we were working with a lot of people in a shared community and industry.
Like, I think people really wanted to support it, um, so we got a lot of pre-sales and had enough money to pay for the issue. And then we did our first launch party at Honey's in Bushwick, which is, like...
Honestly, all of my important life events happen at Honey's at this point. We, like, really love this bar.
And we had, um, a couple hundred people show up to that party, which was unexpected, and I think that's when we realized, like, "Oh, maybe there's something more here that we can actually work with."
So coming out of that issue, we had enough money to pay all of our contributors for the following issue, and just kind of
through that process of working ahead, um, like, that's where the core operating editorial budget has come from.
And since then, like, we very recently over the past year have started charging, um, for our events, which, like, we still spend literally thousands of dollars on dessert that we give away mostly for free at these events.
So i- that's just an effort to not be losing money on the events, and then it comes down to bringing on, um, sponsors, like liquor sponsors or brands that wanna be a part of the event, and then that's where we get the extra money to pay all of our producers or do all of these things.
Like, we still are at a stage where our core edit team is not compensated for the work that we do.
Uh, we're trying to be better about that, and I think we're kind of in this interesting middle stage in our third year of operations where, you know, we have enough money in the bank for two issues instead of just one, so thinking about, like, how do we invest in ourselves as people who are working on it- Mm-hmm...
or the people that we work with. Like, it- it's tricky 'cause I know that there are publications that don't pay their people, and that as a freelancer, like, having a place to have clips is valuable.
Like, when I was starting out as a freelancer- Mm... there were more publications that I could write for that would pay me.
So I don't wanna say that's bad, but I think for me as someone whose career is in this industry and who's building a brand, like, I do not wanna do a publication where people that I work with don't get paid.
And as a part of that, it feels silly that, like, we wouldn't pay ourselves, but that's just kind of the intermediary stage that we're at. Does that make sense? I feel like I just ran through a lot.
[laughs] No, it totally makes sense. Mm. And, like, one of the slides that are...
I, I created this slide that I've used in a few different publications, uh, or, sorry, presentations, and I've talked about it on the podcast before, but I call it, like, the attention economy trap, where, like, people start off, like, sort of with that conversation you had with Tanya, which was like, "Let's just do something cool together."
But because everything is sort of operating in the same attention economy, like the Paris Review example, like, your side project, you're promoting it in the same way that you might promote something where people do get paid because you want people to pay attention to it.
But then once you pass a certain clout threshold, there's this expectation of payment, and so it forces people to be, like, so intentional about whether something's really gonna be, like, DIY side project, or whether something is going to be a business where you're gonna commit and say, "Okay, even if we can't pay all the core editors, we really wanna pay freelancers.
Like, this is an important value to us." But because everyone exists and distributes on the same platforms, like,
there can be this, like, trap whereThe better you are at promoting yourself or making your side project look cool, the higher people have as an expectation for you, where like in the beginning they're like, "Oh, it's so great that you guys are doing like, you know, $20 per article," because at least it's something and most people don't.
And then you get to a point where it's like, oh, you know, you should be doing more, but the resources of the publication haven't really changed, but your stature's gone up and the prestige has gone up.
And, um, I mean I think about it and talk about it all the time 'cause I've seen friends get caught in that. It really takes the fun and joy out of, uh, everything.
But, um, you know, the alternative is like you sort of alluded to before, we don't ever have any independent projects.
So it's good that we have people who are willing to like figure it out even though you have to avoid all of these traps. Yeah.
I, I agree with you, and I think like that's one of the reasons why events has become a big thing that CAKE ZINE does, is it's an opportunity to kind of try to cash in some of this clout that we might have as a publication with brands who see that value, see the reach that we have or the community that is dedicated to show up for our events.
Like, as a... I don't even know the right word. Like, not girl boss, but like as someone who runs this brand, like- Girl boss... it's surreal to me- Editor in chief. She's a girl boss.
As an editor, and I- it's like when I say with the heaviest possible air quotes, like ironic, 'cause like I don't...
Like, if I could never have to touch a spreadsheet or think about distribution or sales tax again, like I would do that, whatever that side deal is. But that's not what like actually having a magazine is.
But I don't take it for granted that like we sold 800 tickets to our last launch party in New York. Mm-hmm. That's huge. Like, I worked at like- I was there, and it was crazy.
It was the one of the best events I've ever been to. Did you sell more or less magazines than that? Definitely less magazines than that. I'm sorry. He's very rude. Which is- [laughs] No, I mean... No, oh, no.
For the issue? [laughs] More. Yeah, for that issue. At the- More. Yeah... at the f- at the party, at the party less, but for the issue we have sold significantly more than 800 magazines. Okay, awesome.
Can you give like a ballpark on like what, how many like people you c- that are like recurring subscribers? Or do you kind of reset- Oh... with each issue? We don't have a subscription. Yeah.
It's something that we've debated doing- Mm... a lot. Um, I think like when we started out we didn't wanna feel like we were committing- A whole thing. Yeah... to doing two issues a year per se.
Like, for this year we're gonna have finished two issues by the end of the year, but we're not gonna release Daily Bread until the next year just because of personal travel schedules. Like- Yeah...
Tonya's writing a book. Like all of these things. Um, so we just sell per issue. Mm-hmm. And like based on the Shopify data that I have, I think like half of... I don't even wanna guess actually.
A good amount are people who have bought previous issues. Um, and we also like have a very robust stockist distribution program that we run.
Um, we work with Anten as our UK EU distributor, and then we have a woman named Amber Lee, who's awesome, who does all of our domestic stockist interaction herself.
Um, and we have like over 100 stockists around the world, so that's like a pretty- Wow... um, helpful thing for us in terms of even setting how much we're gonna print.
You know, we print like several thousand of each issue, and knowing that we have a set amount that's gonna go to stockist or something is helpful.
So to your point, we sold more magazines than we had people at the last launch party. But- That's-... of the people at that launch party, um, certainly like w- I would say most of them did not get a magazine there.
Maybe they got them somewhere else. Um, but it's not really like the environment to be carrying around a magazine, I would say. There's like tattoos and DJs and... Yeah, it's better.
Um- Cotton candy with dried flowers... which is- [laughs] Try to balance it with a- Yeah... candy... all, all of the above.
And I know, and I think like other magazines that we admire here in New York, like The Drift for example, um- Mm-hmm...
or Keisha, like will do events where the magazine is the ticket, and I think that's something that's of interest to us. Mm. But I think we also, um,
want there to be like a lower ticket cost than there would be if it was including the magazine. We want people to interact with the brand in different ways, so that's why we haven't done that yet. Mm-hmm.
Well, and you, I mean you know this at Penguin, like there's a parallel discourse that's happening right now around like who buys books, and especially like debut books.
And one screenshot that I interacted with this week, and I had sort of a tongue in cheek response to, it was basically like, I don't know if it's from the Esquire, Kate Dwyer's Esquire article.
But it was basically like a lot of novels, like well reviewed novels only sell about 5,000 copies, and like for a debut 1,000 is good. Which is like,
we don't often put them in conversation with like independent magazines, but like this means like CAKE ZINE has like objectively sold more copies of a single issue than some people sell of their novel, which is- Mm...
kinda crazy to think about. Like, yeah, it's not really the same market, but it sort of is, and we are talking about a print product.
Um, and my sort of tongue in cheek response was like, why doesn't everyone just sell 10 novels for $1,000 each? Just sell, make 10 copies. And, um- [laughs]...
which is a horrible idea, but also like a good idea if you could, if you could, you would. Like, right? Like, if you could, you would.
But, um, I just think that's, that's such a we- it's an interesting idiosyncrasy about this point in time, basically. I feel like magazines feel more disposable. Like so many...
Like with a book, like if I'm buying a book I feel like I'm gonna have to read the whole thing, where like, uh, with a magazine it's like- Again, Francis. [laughs] No.
With, with a magazine I'm like I might read like, you know, like half of it and then- Yeah, that's true... set it on my coffee table and have my stack of magazine. Like something about consuming magazines- Yeah...
it feels like I'm less committed to like spending hours and hours reading it. Mm. You know? Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. I don't know. Yeah. It's interesting. Like the, we call it-We had like a pr-- I don't know, it's not even...
We didn't know what we were making when we started it. So it's called a zine. It is a magazine. It's almost, it's more like a book, like it's printed like a book. Mm-hmm.
Um, and the paper is like a thicker quality than I think a lot of magazines are, and it's mostly illustrated. It has a spine, right? It's kind of this... It has a spine, like- Yeah... it's kind of in between.
So I feel like that's- Mm-hmm... kind of interesting, and that's really our art director, Noah Amrich, who is really, cares a lot about like the printed object and how it feels in your hand. Mm-hmm.
That's h- how he took the magazine in that direction. I will say, like to the point on books versus magazines, I was surprised by how many people collect magazines and are interested in collecting Cake Zine.
Our first issue, Sexy Cake- Mm... was the smallest quantity that we printed, and we completely sold it out and have never reprinted it, just because of the, like economics of doing that.
But we often receive messages from people who are zine collectors and who, like- Mm... some people even said like, "I really want to buy your new issues, but I don't wanna buy them if I can't get the first one."
Like, they're very interested in collecting all of them, and I don't think- Yeah... I guess there are people who are like Ina Garten fans, and they want every Ina book.
But I think that is like the point of magazines in some ways, is that there are people who want every single one. Whereas, in like books, they'll reprint. There'll be more editions.
With magazines, you're not like usually reprinting the old issues. There's like more of that scarcity to it maybe.
Yeah, I mean, I think like if enough people were interested or if, if we were, you know, doing another reprint, like maybe we would reprint that first issue, just because there are people who want it out there.
And I am very grateful to people that are that interested in Cake Zine, that they want that first copy. But, um, you know, because we're a self-funded small business, like the,
we'd have to print a lot of that first issue for it to make sense from a cost perspective, because of the economies of scale.
And instead, we kind of are prioritizing, um, you know, printing the new issues as we make them.
Um, something I wanted to ask about that I think you were doing this around the time you started, that you started Cake Zine, was you did the, you edited Mushrooms in the Middle for Smallhold, uh, which for any listeners who aren't aware, it's this, it's this organic mushroom farming company, like oyster mushrooms and s- and such.
Um, and around that time that came out, I was really interested in the brand. I was like, I kinda wanted to work for them. No, no open positions Francis grew up on a farm, if you- I did grow up on a farm.
Um- As dedicated listeners of the podcast do know. As dedicated listeners know. We mention it at least once an episode.
[laughs] But okay, but, but I remember, so I live, I live in, in Ridgewood, and you know, there's TOPOS books here. And I was there thumbing, you know, thumbing through the books.
I remember seeing it there and like thinking, I didn't buy it, but I was like, "This is such a cool artifact, like wow," and like, you know, just enjoying looking at it. This is such savvy marketing.
Um, I don't know, I'm just curious to hear you talk about that project. It was really cool. It was such a fun project.
I love mushrooms and have a fascination with them, and I think I just met Adam and Andrew, who were the founders of Smallhold- Smallholders... just through food stuff. And you know, I'm trying to remember.
Oh, I think I did like a sourdough bread baking workshop at 99 Scott in 2019, like before the pandemic. More Honey's connection And one of the people... Yeah, literally it all, like, I met my girlfriend at Honey's.
Like we're having our 30th birthday party at Honey's. Like e- everything comes back to Honey's.
[laughs] Um, and we were doing this bread baking workshop, and I think one of the women in the class with me w- is dating one of the Smallhold guys, and that's how I first met them.
And then we just kept in touch, and it was around the time that I was going freelance, and they wanted to make a mini cookbook. So I think it was 10 to 12 recipes, and- Mm-hmm...
each one was kind of using their mushrooms in an interesting way. But there was like a beautiful mushroom dessert, for example. Or like I think I did a recipe for a mushroom bloody Mary in that book- Mm. Ooh...
where you soak, uh, dried shiitake mushrooms in vodka, and it gets this like, almost like Worcestershire sauce, like umami quality that you then make the drink with.
Um, so that was really fun to get to do just because I feel like it was right at this kind of nexus inflection point when mushrooms, I mean, they still are very much an object of fascination- Yeah... in food culture.
But it was just kind of around then, and I brought together, um, like a good friend of mine, Pearl Jones, who's a food stylist, like we got to work together on that project.
So it was just like a freaky little mushroom hang, you know? [laughs] Love a freaky little mushroom hang. Yeah.
[laughs] So, so think about like the way you were talking about like, oh, like being, you know, the way Honey's is so central to all these things, and like the events you guys are throwing.
And I'm thinking about like community and food, and like I, you know, I used to work in, in kitchens, and th- that was such a community thing. You, like I lived in New Orleans. You go to this restaurant.
"Oh, I work at this restaurant." "Oh, let me, here, here's a free appetizer. Drinks are on me tonight." Whatever. Like, a friend of mine was just at a restaurant for his birthday, and he's a som.
And they were like, they g- they brought him out like a really nice bottle of wine that they, they had half left on the house.
The, the point being, like I feel like food people are so communal, and so, like it's such a friendly culture.
And then I think of like media, where media is like also that in a little way, but I, I, in my mind it's more- No, it's much cattier. I wish it was like that. [laughs] Yeah, exactly.
So I, I, I think it kind of- I'm trying to cultiv- cultivate more community. [laughs] Yeah. I, I guess I, I, I don't know.
I'm curious if you have anything to say on like the difference, 'cause you work in both worlds, right? Like the difference between like community and food, and then maybe food media or media more broadly.
Yeah, I think it's interesting. I mean, community is such an overused term, but it is something that Tanya and I say to talk about Cake Zine because- Mm-hmm...
not even that we created a community, but that we were already a part of one. Mm-hmm.
And like we really, like we started the first issue like with close friends who we felt, and other people that were interested, but like, you know, with people that we felt comfortable asking to do something for free, because we all liked the idea.
And, and I think, um, you know, Tanya works in restaurants. She's the pastry chef at Little Egg in Brooklyn. I have done that previously, but I don't work in restaurants here in New York.
So I think like any food world that I'm a part of, like-It's more of, like, the food media world, and then I have friends that are chefs or, you know, work in restaurants, and some of them are
my friends, and then they happen to work in restaurants, and sometimes I befriended them, like, over the course of going somewhere a lot. But we're not really, like...
You know, I'm not, I'm not on the same page with them per se. We just share- Yeah...
space in different ways, and I think we have different things to offer each other, um, versus, like, my friends who are line cooks who go to their other friends who are line cooks' restaurants.
I, I wonder if, like, one of the differences between the food world and the media world is that, like, media people have less to offer each other on, like- Mm...
a friend level than food people because, like, if you're a bartender and your friend comes into the bar, like, you can pour them free drinks, and, like- It's like for like... no one is really gonna know.
Or you can, like, you can show them hospitality in that kind of way, whereas, like, um, you have to, like... I don't know.
If I'm an editor and my friend wants to write for me, like, I have to get their story approved, and then I have to get budget for that and, like, pay them. Like, it's kind of like a different...
The kickbacks don't exist in that kind of way, which is maybe, like, a pessimistic way to look at it 'cause I don't really think it's about, like, being friends for the free drinks.
I think it's just about, like, having similar life experiences and, like, wanting to know what other people in the industry are doing and, like, supporting them in that kind of way.
And I think, like, that is what's so special about Cake Scene is that we're able to offer opportunity not only for writers and artists but also, like, chefs and bakers to do something fun and be celebrated for it.
Like, at all of our events, we have, um, you know, four or five bakers who we're commissioning to make dessert at the party that is being, like, anticipated and photographed and, like, devoured and really, like, centerpieced in this way that I think is kind of unusual.
And, like, those aren't even contributors to the issue. They're just people who we admire and, like, wanna have present at the event.
I think even the idea for, like, the Death by Chocolate shirt that I was telling you about, like, making merch for someone's recipe is really cool, and is, like, not something that I think is very well done or isn't done that often.
But I think it's kind of at our core of, like, wanting to celebrate people who we think are just doing cool shit.
I think the media equivalent of, like, giving your friend a free drink is, like, forcing your friend to work on the draft that they've been procrastinating on maybe. Like, it's- [laughs]...
it's too bad that our free drinking equivalent- Yeah... is basically tantamount to bullying. Or would it be like editing each other's work or something? Yeah, editing. You know, paying like discovery. Yeah.
I also think, like, talking about ideas, helping somebody come up with ideas or f- figure out what they really wanna say. Yeah. I've tried to cultivate more of that, um, even with people who are, like, working- Yeah...
somewhere other than Dirt. Yeah. Yeah. I think you're right.
I definitely have friends in media who, like, we don't professionally work together, but we will talk about idea and say, like, you know, "Is this going anywhere?" Or share contacts for editors.
Like, I certainly think there's other systems of freebies that exist out there, um, but maybe it's a little less fun than getting dessert. It's free intellectual labor. [laughs] Mm-hmm. Which I'm assuming here comes.
Yeah, exactly. [laughs] Ta- talk- talking about that, like, that- [laughs]...
more, like, physical, you know, gift, gi- giving somebody a drink, whatever, um, I listened to the Bold Lead podcast episode that you were on, and you said, the host asked, like, what y'all were thinking about of, like, you know, your dreams for what Cake Scene becomes.
And you mentioned a physical space where, like, it's... It was like, "Oh, maybe it's a, maybe it's a wine bar. Maybe, you know, you go to- Mm-hmm... buy the magazine, read the magazine- Mm...
maybe there's dancing in the back," whatever, um, which seemed to me like such a, I don't know,
a, a, a logical next step in, like, the philosophy of what it seems to be of, like, b- being this kind of unique community thing. Um, you said that only, like, two months ago, so I imagine- Yeah...
you're still thinking about that, right? We talk about it all the time. I mean, we're very inspired by Noble Rot, the natural wine publication- Mm... from the UK.
They have, I believe, three wine bars in London that came out of this natural wine magazine that they were doing.
Um, I mean, it's mostly because Tanya, you know, is a pastry chef at a restaurant, and some of our major event collaborators also work in hospitality.
And so we just have this existing community of people who could, like, actually make a great restaurant. Mm.
And also, like, um, you know, I think Tanya's very interested in places that do dessert after dark to the theme of this own very newsletter collab that we're doing.
Um, and I do think we're lucky that we have this community of people who come to Cake Scene events. We've done them in London, Paris, we just did one in Philly, LA, but mostly we do them in New York.
So I do think, like, it would be helpful at least from a investor deck point of view. Um, I think we just, like... I, I don't know.
I love the idea of a place that has, like, a magazine shop in the front, and it's a wine bar, and it has, like, three or four really good desserts, and yes, there is a back room. And we get to have, like,
DJs come through. Um, it would probably be, like, a very queer space also because that is the majority of the people that we work with as well.
Like, I think, I don't know, every New Yorker loves to dream about doing something like that.
I don't actually have any plans to open one, but if anyone is listening to this and wants to talk more, I guess we're available. [laughs] If anybody's got a, a space for rent. Um, what about- Yeah, exactly.
So you were talking about- We're speaking it into existence. Mm-hmm. You were talking for a second about, like- Mm-hmm...
you know, you, you don't wanna do subscriptions, but, like, also on the topic of, like, well, what's next? What's, what are the, what's the dream? What, what's the goal?
Like, do, would, would you want this to get to a point where you are, like, working on it, you know, maybe not full-time, but, like, half of your time is spent doing this, and maybe there's, like, three a year or four a year?
I don't know. Like, more on, like, just the publication itself, like, do you have ambitions to make it a larger media product than-More, more of Yeah.
I mean, like, to be candid, like, definitely more than half of our time is already being spent on Cake Zine that's just not being, like- Real... reimbursed in that kind of way. Yeah.
Which we're, we're, we're trying to, um, figure out ways that we can be, if not paying ourselves hourly, 'cause there's so many hours that are in on it, compensating ourselves better for the time that's spent on the magazine, just considering where we're at with the financial growth for the publication.
And I think we would love to be in a space where we're doing three issues a year.
Um, longer issues I think is also something that we really want to do, and it's just a matter of, um, having, like, the financial resources to make that happen, and also just, like,
how all the time fits together because we spend four and a half months working on an issue from conceiving the pitch guide to approving final PDFs at the printer.
Um, and then we have to, you know, get them back and distribute, and there is ultimately, like, only so many months in the year. Yeah. It never ends.
I mean, I admire what you're doing so much and, um, especially balancing it with your job at Taste and you also have a podcast, so we wanted to ask, like,
what has your experience been like podcasting and, um- Been doing a lot of interviews... or what are some of your favorite interviews that you guys have done?
Podcasting is so funny because I, I don't really listen to that many podcasts, and I hadn't done one before, but I, I feel that through my work just as a journalist and interviewing people and also my passion for interrogating strangers at parties, it just kind of- [laughs]...
fit together in an interesting way. Um- I, that's the same example I always use. [laughs] Yeah, wait, what are your, both of your signs also? Oh, such a good question. Do you wanna try to guess?
No, but I wanna know your big three, if you can tell me. I'm a Virgo. Um, I can't remember my other right now. I think I'm a... There's a Scorpio in there. I forget which one. I'd have to pull up my Co-Star. It's okay.
It's been a while. Yeah. [laughs] Um- Wait, let me actually pull up my Co-Star. [laughs] Okay. I'm a Pisces. Daisy, are you a fire sign? No. Okay. Never mind. I'm a Pisces.
And, um, but then I have Sagittarius and Capricorn also in my big three. Oh. But I don't know. People are like, "Oh, you're a Pisces? Like, you're, but you're so, like, very driven for a Pisces," I guess.
And I- Pisces aren't driven. What? I said Pisces are driven. I've never met Pisces that aren't driven.
Well, I mean, but Pisces have this reputation of, like, sort of sensitivity and, like, floaty and spiritual, and I actually relate to a lot of the qualities of the Pisces, but I do think the Sagittarius and Capricorn is, like, it gives the little bit of, like, a bite.
Um- Mm-hmm... I don't know. How about you? I, so I found mine. Yeah. Oh. Virgo moon, Sagitta- uh, Virgo sun, Virgo sun, Sagittarius moon, Gemini rising. Ooh, Gemini. Ooh. Okay. Little bit of that in there.
Well, that's good to know. Eliza, what about you? So, so I'm a Scorpio. Tanya and I are both Scorpios actually. Um- When's your birthday? It must be coming up, right? November 10. Okay. Yeah. I'll remember. It's fine.
[laughs] Um, [laughs] great. [laughs] But, uh, I'm a Libra rising Gemini moon. Mm-hmm. Uh-huh.
Which I don't know if, if people are listening, they probably don't care about astrology- This is the most dox we've ever been in this podcast... but I- Yeah. I feel- Yeah, sorry... very vulnerable right now.
Um, everyone's gonna be like, "Ugh, of course these are their signs." Um, but I find that, like, if I'm gonna talk about astrology, the Libra Gemini, like, very chatty. Like, I, I find that I'm able to
kind of vibe with my guests a lot. Mm-hmm.
Um, but then of course I, you know, come in with a lot of research and questions that I want to be answered, and I'm always kind of doing this tap dance of, like, how can I make someone feel comfortable and as if we're just chatting, but I'm also working my way into all of these questions at the same time.
Um, and I like doing the podcast with Taste because it's a food podcast, a food interview podcast, but it can be very broad in terms of how people are connecting with food.
So, um, I just did an interview this morning that will be out in a couple weeks, um, with this woman Lisa, who has this organization called League of Kitchens here in New York, which is a cooking school that is staffed entirely by, like, immigrant, like, moms and grandmas who, like, bring people, like, into their homes to do cooking classes, and they have a cookbook coming out from that.
And, you know, getting to speak with her about all of these, like, these 14 incredible women who come from such different culinary traditions that are, um, you know, like, teaching, like, heritage technique of cooking.
And then I also get to speak with, uh, this woman Tama Matsuko Wong, who's a professional forager who's supplying, like, all of the fancy restaurants in New York with ramps and nettles and all of these things.
Um, or, like, Davone Francis, who does this, uh, like, pop-up project called Yardy that does events and different kinds of things and is one of my biggest inspirations in terms of doing, like, events that center food but talk about or involve other things as well.
Yeah. Like, he did a, a skate party at a gym in Bed-Stuy a couple years ago that I went to that was so much fun.
Um, so I think all of it is just, it's just interesting to get to spend time with people and, and ask them a lot of questions in a way that maybe would be weird in real life. Yeah.
No, it's so funny you said the party thing.
Like, I, whenever I'm like tell people, like, I, I do some podcasting, I'm always like, yeah, I think it's, like, the same skill that's, like, if I'm at a party and I'm talking to somebody, like, they're gonna leave the conversation before I do.
Um, but I think- [laughs]... may- maybe it's the Virgo side of me But we haven't been pre-vetting people's zodiac signs. I think we need to start doing that. [laughs] Mm-hmm.
I've had to, like, stop asking my guests until afterwards because if I ask them first, then I just think I know way too much about them- Yeah... which is not actually true.
But it's fun to, like, afterwards- Yeah, you sound great... be like, "Oh, this makes a lot of sense." Yeah. When I did the Taste podcast, um-You, it was Matt. You weren't there. I'm sad- Mm-hmm...
that you weren't there, but- Yeah. How do you guys split, like, who does who? 'Cause it's usually- We just, like, book our own mostly. Okay.
Um, sometimes, like, our producers will bring in someone, and it's whoever's schedule is free. I'm, like- Mm-hmm... I'm a contributing editor at Taste, but I'm not on staff full-time.
It's, like, a contract thing, so I mostly just bring on people that I think are gonna be fun to talk to. Yeah.
And then certainly 'cause we're a part of Penguin Random House, fa- fall and spring cookbooks are big time, and then we kind of, like, divide up the list a bit more that way.
Um, but Daisy, maybe, like, I'll have you back on, and we can, we can do another version of the Taste interview with me. Ugh. I mean, I would love that, not that I'm campaigning for it.
[laughs] But that would be really fun. [laughs] Okay. And we did have a little bit... We had a few, like, little rapid fire, grab bag questions that we wanted to end the episode with.
But you said cookbooks, so I'm gonna add an additional question- Mm... which is, like, what cookbook have you been attached to recently, or are you working your way through one right now? Ooh,
this is funny 'cause I do these rapid fire questions on my show, but I never have to answer them. So now I'm like- [laughs]... you know, other side- [laughs]... of the situation.
Um, I just did a, a live podcast with Julia Turshen at Rizzoli about her new book called What Goes With What, which is, um, like, 20 charts basically that spin off into different recipes, and I think it's just such a intuitive and cool way to teach cooking.
So I've been sitting down with that book a lot lately. Um, yeah, I'll say What Goes With What. That sounds great. I need more systems in my kitchen. What about the best restaurant meal you've had this year? Ooh.
This whole year? Uh, or, you know, this- Recently... last several months... that you can remember. Okay. I- Yeah...
um, I was just in Philly last weekend, and got to go to this restaurant called Polisi Social Club, which is a members-only restaurant on the south side of Philly, like, in someone's home, uh, that I've wanted to go to for years.
And my friend is a member and took us, and it was just, like, a perfect, like, three-hour dinner with, um, stromboli, and chicken cutlets, and beans and escarole.
And we ended up doing, like, shots of homemade limoncello with our server 'cause he also was a Scorpio. It was just kind of like a, a perfect, uh, South Philly Italian night.
Three hours is a short dinner for an Italian, so. [laughs] Yeah. I mean, we started it at 9:00, so we, we went- Oh, nice... past midnight. [laughs] That's beautiful. And did you do a post-dinner espresso? We did not.
We did a post-dinner amaro, but- Mm... espresso would've been maybe more useful for us at that point. I mean, amaro's even better. Um, but, you know, I'm a fan of the multi-beverage lifestyle, so I could've done both.
Oh, okay. [laughs] How about, uh, the best piece of food writing you've read recently that's not in Cake Scene? It's really hard to answer these questions- It is... on the spot. I don't know. Yeah, on the spot is hard.
On your own time. Um, I'm just gonna say, like, anything, anything by Ligaya Mich- Michan, um, who writes at, like, The Times at T.
I think she's just an incredible food writer, and I always just wanna kind of curl up in a chair and, like, read her whole piece at once. Mm-hmm. Beautiful. I mean, they have amazing photography as well. Mm-hmm.
Which is, as we know, so, so important. Shall we end it here? Yeah. I think this was so- Yeah... fun. Um- This has been Tasteland. This has been Tasteland.
We'll see you next week, and keep an eye out for Dessert After Dark. And bye, Cake Scene. Thank you for having me. Yes. Thank you for coming on. Bye, Cake Scene. Bye, Cake Scene. [upbeat music] Honey.
It tastes just like it costs. Ooh. Honey.