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[upbeat music] Welcome to Tasteland. I am your co-host, Francis Zehr. And I'm Daisy Alioto.

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And today we're talking to Dina Burke and Natasha Hoskins, who are the co-founders of Boys' Club, which is a media and creative studio and community.

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Um, their tagline for their social presence and also their very funny newsletters is, "For dumb smart people and/or smart dumb people." Relatable.

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Um, and they put together newsletters, podcasts, parties, magazines and events.

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Um, like I said, it's also a social collective for people trying to understand Fintech and crypto and the way that it fits in with the broader culture. I've known them for- I certainly don't understand that myself, so...

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Well, we'll help you out today. [laughs] Um, I'm excited to yap with them. I've known them for a while.

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Uh, we're also working on a project together that will debut early next month, which we teased at Adweek, which is, uh, Dirt's new vertical clone, um, in collaboration with Boys' Club, and it is Drudge for technology and culture.

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Mm. Uh, we just finalized the landing page. It's looking really slick, so I'm excited to dig into that more. Congratulations, Daisy. Thank you.

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Um, I, I can recall around the time that this podcast started, you know, that you did have a profile in The New York Times where you, you were really talking up, um, the verticals.

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You've, you've launched like three verticals since, since that New York Times piece. Yeah. Yeah, we are expanding at a frenetic pace, perhaps against- Mm... my better judgment.

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But, um- The primordial soup is, is bubbling... well, in the wo- words of Dawn Draper, my life moves in one direction, forward. So- Like the universe... as does the Dirtyverse. Mm-hmm. Not, it doesn't...

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Don't, do, don't universes like spiral? No, that's galaxies. We don't know. [laughs] They do a lot of different things. Um- We could ask Katy Perry... you know, this could be a black hole situation. [laughs] Mm-hmm.

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Um, but I wanna talk about an article that you wrote this week, Francis- Oh...

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um, about the creator economy, which is something I know that you're always kind of coming up with a rolling definition of what it means to be a creator and what that means to your guests.

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But I think that you have, like, a pretty great formula for what it means to be a participant in the creator economy, where you have to have three attributes.

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Um, and I can think of a lot of people and entities that have, like, two out of three. Mm-hmm. Um, but you really need to be firing on all cylinders. So can you explain a little bit about the criteria that you lay out?

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Yes. So this is, uh- Yes... this is rooted in an idea, though it's not mine originally.

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I got it from the newsletter, uh, growth professional, Matt McGarry, who I think he got it from one of the Morning Brew co-founders, but that the idea is that you have to...

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You create media, you grow the audience for it, and you sell it. And my argument in the creator economy article is that basically there are people who...

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There are people and service and software service providers in each of these columns or task groups, I would say.

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Um, but that one thing that differentiates creators from a lot of, like, larger media companies is a media company usually has all of these vertically integrated. Mm.

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Whereas a creator usually is just doing one or two of these, very rarely three. Um, and everything else is outsourced either to service providers or to a platform.

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Like, if it's, if you're on YouTube, then you're outsourcing the growth and, um, parts of your monetization too. Uh, but let's put a pin in it because our guests are here. Right on time.

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[upbeat music] Did you guys see, um, the... Sh- there's, like, this new Paul brothers TV show, and there's the clip- Oh my gosh... I think it's Jake Paul.

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And he's like, "Look, I don't wanna sound like, you know, like some woke asshole, but women actually have it kinda hard." [laughs] I saw this. I saw this, and I was like, "I think I might tune into this show."

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[laughs] I was like- [laughs] Jake Paul, welcome to Boys Club. [laughs] Having Jake Paul on Dumbbitch Hour would, would go really hard, actually. It would. Like- What about Chet Hanks? I'm sure he's not busy. Mm.

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Oh my gosh, Chet Hanks. Dream guest. But only if he comes on and is- Does pit bull... in his Jamaican- Mm-hmm... persona. [laughs] That's the only role I'd like- I think the algorithm might punish you for that.

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Yeah, for sure. [laughs] For sure. I think I saw him, like, in front of the Wall Street Bull a few months ago. Likely place for him to be. Likely place for him to be.

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We were- I was like, "Oh my God, I went to Bowdoin with that guy." And then I was like- You did? [laughs]... "Nope, that's Chet Hanks." Oh. No, I just...

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You know when you see somebody and you're like, "Oh my God, my friend from college" Mm. And then you're like, "Nope. Celebrity." What were you doing in front of the, the Bull, the stock market bull?

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I can't disclose- She was in line to take a picture obviously. [laughs] Actually, Francis can confirm that the National Writers Union headquarters is directly behind the Wall Street Bull and next to, uh, Cipriani- Mm...

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'cause that's where you would expect- Mm... the foremost labor movement- [laughs]... for American writers to be located, just right in the belly of the beast. And every time I go there, it's really funny.

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Uh, yeah, I can't say that that's a place, uh, that I've been recently. Was Chet doing, like, a Pret?

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Like, was it a Press moment for him, or was it just- Oh, they said it was Chet coming from Pret, and I was like- [laughs]...

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"Wow, this is what we were talking about on the last episode," where I'm like, "I have these great ideas for brands, and unfortunately I don't know them."

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But, like- That's something we can get right for you on the pod... if anyone can get in touch with Pret, you guys need to do a Chet and Pret Oprah Uma situation because- [laughs]... culture demands it. It is.

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[laughs] Um, what was he doing? No, he was just walking. I think he had, like, maybe a gym bag. Oh, I see. Mm-hmm. Um, okay.

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I want to introduce an idea I read earlier today, uh, in, in an article that-Did not come out, like, a couple weeks ago, but it's by Drew Austin, um, in- Oh, I know him... the new Vice.

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It's called Obituary for Mille- for Millennial Culture. Uh, and there was this paragraph that, that stood out to me, which I'll read. "After all, millennials have nowhere to go. The internet is where they live.

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The boomers own property and land in lieu of more traditional assets. The wealth that millennials accumulated online is their generational nest egg.

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We often ridiculed boomers for being unable to grow up, but at least they had some- something else to move on to," writes the literary essayist Chris Jesuu Lee.

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"At this rate, millennials look to be fighting for TikTok territory against zoomers as every single one of us enters middle age." Um, so I think we're all millennials here, so I wanted [laughs] to get your thoughts.

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It's, it's- Oh, I hate that. Well, Dina has real estate. Uh, I'm also a millennial- Dina's a homeowner... if it helps with... [laughs] I, I can qualify myself, uh, that, that way.

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Um, wow, that hits, that hits, that hits hard. Yeah, I feel like, uh, there's something actually quite comforting about the idea... Like, I have e- every once in a while these moments where I'm like,

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"Is this a me issue, or is this, like, a, a global note for my age range?" Mm-hmm. And so I actually hear something like that, and as it is depressing in some ways because

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I think if all of our identity, and ownership, and sense of belonging is on the internet, that feels extremely ephemeral and unstable, but at the same time, it's kinda no- nice to know that, like, misery loves company.

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Mm-hmm. That we're all sort of in it together, and this is not, uh, a product of my own personal failing, but someone somewhere made some mistakes, and I'm paying the consequences [laughs] now. Yeah.

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Which feels a little better. As somebody who's, like, built my business online as well, like, I have these moments where I'm like, "Well, it's fine if all of this doesn't work out because this isn't my real life."

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And it's like, really? That's not your real life? [laughs] Talk about dumb bitch hour. It's like you- [laughs] You're, you're on there every wa- waking moment. That's not your real life.

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Like, somebody call Annie Dillard because that's how you're spending your days, bitch. Like [laughs]... I had... I actually met, uh, a guy at a party this weekend, and he was like...

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We were just chatting, and then he was like, "So, um, you've mentioned Twitter, like, three times in this co..." It was a short conversation. Mm. "In this conversation. Like, are you online a lot?"

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And I was like, "Oh, yeah, I'm online a lot." And he was like, "Oh, okay. Like, um, I, I'd like to get your handle so that when I get home and get on my iPad [laughs] I can look you up on Twitter." God damn.

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[laughs] Not an iPad, baby. And I was like- Was this man legal? [laughs] I was like, "Excuse me, sir. Call the police. You only have Twitter on your iPad?"

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And he was like, "Yeah, you know, like, I don't wanna be just, like, av- have that available to me at all times." And it was, like, a real, like, whoa, cold water to the face type moment. Mm.

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Where I'm like, that is a different relationship to the internet that I have, that you're pulling out a bigger screen- [laughs]... to clock some Twitter time. [laughs] Like, that's a different vibe completely.

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Well, you know, Daisy famously only has... She doesn't have the app. She only has it on her browser on her phone. Well, famously now. Does- Um, yeah.

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[laughs] I tried to wean myself off Twitter, like, a while ago by removing the app from my phone, so I have to log into the Safari browser- Mm. Mm... on- Does that help? No. Mm. No. No, it just...

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Like, I'm still am on there all the time, and it feels weirder for me- You're just having a worse user experience... having a worse user experience. Um, but yeah. Thankfully, I do not have Twitter.

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You need to introduce more friction. I'm, I'm very pro friction. I think,

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uh, this, this is, this is one of the pedestal- pedestals I like to get onto on this podcast, but I'm more and more convinced that, like, the, the, the, the attempts to remove friction in every stage of our life, i.e.

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that new startup Cluelly that we all saw the video for- Mm... where th- he's got the glasses on. Mm. It's, like, telling him how to convince this woman that he's a 30-year-old professional.

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Um, the removal of friction is, is literally death. The end result of a frictionless culture, of frictionless software is literally death. Uh- You're right, Francis.

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I'm just gonna say, 'cause we're all think of it, Twitter needs to be ribbed for her pleasure. [laughs] Reintroduce friction. [laughs] Oh, no. How, how, okay- Oh my God... how would you rib Twitter?

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How would you rib Twitter? How do we, how do we... L- Okay. W- withou- without the app itself- That wasn't a real suggestion. Keep moving... No, but I wanna... Wait. I wanna, I wanna go here.

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[laughs] Um, besides removing the app, how can we make... Like, do you have to, like... Is it, okay, no scroll. You have to press, like, an arrow to scroll to get to a message. Wait, wait, wait, wait.

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Actually, I have something relevant to say, which is my, my friend Lucas texted me, and he's like, "Did I tell you about 48?" Mind you, I don't text, like...

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I haven't texted with him in, like, two years, and I was like, "No. What is it?" And he's like, "It's an app I made. You can only follow 48 people, and you can only post once every 48 hours. It's on a 48-hour delay."

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Oh, that's so funny. [laughs] I'm in here right now with 12 or 15 chuckle fucks. I'm so into this. My first- I'm so into this. [laughs] My first post was pee pee, poo poo- Like BeReal 2.0...

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'cause I was like, that'll be relevant in 48 hours. [laughs] And, um- Oh, God... yeah. I mean, maybe the answer is 48, so you guys can beg Lucas for an invite code. I- I'm going to send him a DM after this.

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He won't get it for 48 hours [laughs] though, but... [laughs] Um, I, um, I've done this a little bit with Instagram where, like, my Instagram was, uh, hacked and then, um, deleted, and I lost it years ago.

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Was this around the same time your seed phrase was hacked or separate incidents? Separate time. Oh. I have really bad OPSEC. Yeah. True, so- Just truly tremendously bad. Regular key over here. Um, great to work in.

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[laughs] Yeah, it's pretty bad. Dina texted me her seed phrase yesterday, and I thought I was having a stroke. [laughs] Just no warning. Just like, "Dear Poetry Door." [laughs] It's like, it's happening.

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It's finally happening. I've lost my mind. Dirt, Dirt Prompt, uh, what's your seed phrase? [laughs] Literally. Okay. Sorry, Natasha. Keep going. We did, yeah. Oh. Oh, no, all good.

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Anyway, no, this was, like, two years ago, and then I was off Instagram for a while, and then I re- I started Instagram again, and I have tried to keep it under 100 people that I follow. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

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So I will very regularly go through and, like, unfollow a bunch of people. That's so chic. And thank you.

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Um, and, like, the main reason is, like, I don't want to have parasocial relationships with people that I follow on Instagram. Like, I wanna be like, these are people...

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If I can't pick up the phone and call you, then I shouldn't follow you on Instagram. Mm. That's my feelingBut it does get difficult because I do think people take it personally when they get unfollowed.

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They're like, "What the fuck?" Latosha, I'm so glad that you brought this up because I, I realized, like, relatively recently that I'm not following you on Twitter. [laughs] On Twitter? [laughs] And I was like- Wow...

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I don't know how to handle this. Like, I think I just need to address it directly- You just gotta ask her... and be like, "Hey, I'm about to follow you," something I wasn't previously doing. [laughs] Coming from you.

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But knowing that you unfollow people to keep your following numbers on Instagram low does make me feel better, although I would pick up the phone and call you.

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Yeah, I feel like I don't know if I follow you on Instagram, but now we have to. And you follow me on Twitter now, and you know, I will, I will- Bump the ugliest guy you know.

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[laughs] No, honestly, that has been part of what's been nice about it is as I've been dating, I've been like, wow, clearing these people out- Yeah... of my brain space is such a nice exercise. Yeah. It's really great.

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Here's a contrarian take, and this is- Oh, boy... said from someone in the active throes of addiction with social media. Like, o- with Twitter specifically. Mm-hmm.

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Like, and TikTok, a minor addiction in TikTok, a major addiction in Twitter. Instagram I can take or leave. Okay, so there's the take which is, like...

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Y- you see the guys, like, the urbit guys that are like, "Oh, cozy internet, safe space, small internet, 48 for 48, your friends. Like, we just need to create these smaller spaces, these community spaces."

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That's fine, and I think we could do that. I, I wanna say in defense of internet addiction, there... every once in a while- That's the name of this episode.

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[laughs] [laughs] At one point somebody says something in the middle of the episode and we're like, "Done." [laughs] Here it is.

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Every once in a while, I, I, a- and maybe it's once every couple days, maybe it's once a w- whatever, there's a post that I see that I'm like,

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man, I mi- I am bearing witness to the vast expanse of human creativity, and I would have... Like, yesterday I saw the... Have you guys seen the Frank- the, um, Frank Ocean, the guy singing Frank Ocean in rural China?

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And he's like- No. He's incredible. It's, it's gone viral. I'm glad you have so you could tell us about it, 'cause that's what you do. So it's...

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he's, he's, like, this older guy, and he might be, like, smoking a cigarette, and he's doing a Frank Ocean cover, or he has, like, some friends that are sitting around a table. And it's just such a...

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[laughs] Like, it's such a slice of some life that there is no universe that I would have ever had the opportunity to, to g- take a glimpse of. Mm-hmm. And

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I every once in a while I'll see this, and I'm like, man, how special is it to be able to see things like that and to be able to think about the world now in this new way? And so I don't know.

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I, I just am like, let's bring it on. Let's see all of it. And, like, of course it's overwhelming and awful in many ways, but there's, there's a part of it that feels like what a incredible time to be alive.

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I saw a tweet- To see all this... of a guy saying that he's now, like, free from his addiction to albino porn. Oh my gosh. And someone quote tweeted it with- Yes...

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"I'm the first person in my bloodline to read these words." [laughs] And I was like, "Oh my God, now me too."

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So I really relate to what you're saying, Dina, because I love to be the first person in my bloodline to- Exactly... read certain words. To explore. What a gift. Mm-hmm.

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Um, we have a channel in our Slack at Boys' Club called For the LOLs, and I just put that tweet in For the LOLs. Mm-hmm. So we're on the same internet, Daisy. [laughs] It's so good. This is like, um...

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What, what was, what was the tweet the other week that was like, "We've got Black Mirror. Like, who's making White Mirror?

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Who's making the y-," i- i- w- and, I mean, when I read that, it's like, well, the people making White Mirror are anybody in a marketing role at a tech company. [laughs] Like, that's, that's the job.

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[laughs] We don't need White Mirror because people are already being paid hundreds. Like, uh, the GDP of people making White Mirror is millions and millions [laughs] of dollars. Um, but, but that...

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I mean, that was a White Mirror moment, I think. That's, that's a White, a White Mirror- That's a White Mirror moment. Mm-hmm. Um, I also have some takes about Black Mirror. I- have you watched the, the latest season?

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I, I thankfully have not watched it for probably, like, four seasons now. I, um, I loved the first couple- Same... but then I was just like I d- th- this is, this is just one slice of, of greater media I can push aside.

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Totally. A- and, uh, yeah, this is not at all a recommendation. I am in the same boat. I watched the first- [laughs]...

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whatever, the first s- when it first came out, and I was like, oh, Charlie Brooker is, like, doing something kinda cool here, and then it fell off. And I, I, I need a zone two show.

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I do zone two exercise where you're like- Mm... you gotta be doing something for 45 minutes to an hour, and so I... And I...

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You need a certain type of en- entertainment for that, certain type of content that can just, like, fill, just pass through the brain and you're just passing the minutes.

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Anyway, I put on, uh, Black Mirror and the newest season, and it's not good. It's not worth it. It's not, like, future... Like, the first couple ep- the first...

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When Black Mirror was good, you were in a near future that was, like, really different. Like, it was exciting. Uh, like, not exciting. It was dystopian f- entirely, but, like, there was, uh,

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there were elements to it that were, like, challenging and different, and now it's just kinda like some girl's getting gas lit at her job. [laughs] Like, over email. Yeah. And I'm like, I don't- We have that at home...

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totally agree. Yeah. So I don't even- I don't need to watch that... need to see that. We have been professionally gas lit at our jobs. [laughs] It's not even science fiction anymore. It's just non-fiction.

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[laughs] Um, okay. Y- your 45-minute- Yeah... um, exercise zone two idea, this is something I came up with a couple weeks ago. I'm debuting it here on the pod. This is its first time on the airwaves. Oh, boy.

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Um, so I've gotten really- Out the drop... into watching soccer in the past few years. Okay. One half of soccer is 45 minutes, right? Uh-huh. So this is, like, the next Peloton.

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Um, it's, it's a treadmill where you watch a game, you're watching a game live, and you hook it up to a specific player, and th- 'cause they, they can run, like...

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A, an individual player can run, like, 13 kilometers in a game, right? And so the, the speed of the treadmill then automatically adjusts at the speed of that player live- Cool. [laughs]...

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and you are forced to run the entire half of football- Cool... with this player. Mm.Are you also, like, POVing from them, or- That... Well, that's, that's actually... I did not think about that. [laughs] I love that.

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That would be really... That would really get the heart rate up. Uh-huh. Um, but I think this could do Peloton numbers. How are we measuring their land speed? They, they have...

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So they wear these little, like, sports bras that, that keeps track of it. Mm. I don't think that's trackable. Have you not seen this? No, I've seen it- Yeah... but I, I don't refer to it as a sports bra. [laughs] Okay.

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What do you refer to it as? It's like a- A heart rate monitor... harness. Okay. Well- A harness [laughs]... a harness. Heart rate harness. Bergen leather daddy GoPro. Bergen? [laughs] Bergen.

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However you say it, I don't know. Um, I gotta say- Other brand... there's, there's something a little porny in that idea. There's a little- Mm... like, POV porny- Everything about soccer is porny... to it.

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That's why it's my favorite sport. [laughs] But I think my husband- Mm... would be really into this idea, Francis. Yeah. Well, maybe- I would totally do it... maybe he should write a play about it.

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I- Have a startup founder pitching it. There is actually a... There is a great play about a women's soccer team that he's told me about before. I don't remember what it's called.

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But, um, yeah, I'm really actually very curious what his next play will be about, because, um, I know that he doesn't wanna write, like, an AI play. It definitely feels like- It sounds like he does. No, it's- Please.

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[laughs] He knows that it's the next gimmick, right?

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And, like, with the cycle of how long it takes to, like, produce a piece of theater, you, you wanna write something that feels of the moment, but it can't be so of the moment.

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By the time the play goes up, it's like, oh, wow. Like- Hm... you know, it's Who's Afraid of Virginia Wolf- Virginia Wolf... for AGI, [laughs] you know? So anyway, I did say I was gonna plug Ben's next show.

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And Natasha, you should come. If you- I wanna come... are in the city, I know you guys- Let's do it... are traveling soon, but, uh, it's a one-man

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s- show about a startup founder pitching the investors as the audience, um, for his- Oh, wow... energy drink startup, and at halfway through, he has a crack up.

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And there's these different vignettes in the middle that are performed in a different order every night, depending on audience participation. So fun.

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Um, he's adamant that it was not inspired by my experience fundraising. [laughs] And, um, it's on Sunday, on April 27th.

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It's one night only, because it's part of a pop-up theater program around the city, but this is his first off-Broadway show. Everything has been off, off Broadway up until this point.

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And it's at Art, A-R-T, at 502 West 53rd Street. Uh, doors at 6:45 PM. So... So exciting. Producer Tom, you can put this, put this in the show notes. That would be awesome if you did. [laughs] I mean, I do think it's...

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it is highly relevant. And, um, friend of Taste Lead, Nick Suzy, was an early, uh, viewer- Good guy... and participant in, uh, the audience piece with his partner, Kelsey. Um, there is, you know,

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some forced beverage consumption that happens. [laughs] So I don't know if you're in it, but- Is there funding? Hm? Um, there, the hat is passed every night. There's different things. Sometimes it's a coffee card.

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Sometimes somebody's generous with a 20. Um, depending on whether the actor remembers or not, then he might keep your money.

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[laughs] Um, and yeah, they're going on the road, uh, next month to the Atlanta Fringe Festival. So if any of our listeners are Atlanta, you have an opportunity to see Ben. So fun. Yeah. That sounds great.

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It's called Rich Beyond Our Wildest Dreams. Um, okay. Something- Dumb Bitch Hour was taken.

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[laughs] Something I only learned about listening to Dumb Bitch Hour, uh, earlier today- I love the way you say it, like it's one word. It's, it's- Dumbitch Hour. Dum- dum... Do you want me to enunciate it more?

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Um, anyways. [laughs] Farcaster. I've never heard of Farcaster, and then I went back, and Dina- Oh, wow...

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in your tweets, um, you had this tweet about 4- your, it's like a picture of 404 Media's decentralized social media article. Um, but you say, "Only Blue Sky and Mastodon are mentioned here.

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Why is it that Farcaster at all can't seem to break through on non-crypto media?" Uh, which case in point, it had not broken through to me. I have no idea- Hm... what this is. Explain. Mm-hmm.

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We're actually in the pocket of Bi- [laughs] Farcaster. [laughs] Oh, do we need to cut this? Do I- No, no. Not at all. No, no. Um, no. Farcaster gave us, uh, a grant to develop Clone. Oh.

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Um, and we're gonna be seeding out some of the content- Well [laughs]... on Warpcast. After I posted that. Okay. Just for the record. Oh. Yeah, yeah. No. After you posted that. Yeah. I mean, it's a...

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It's very similar to Twitter, but there are in-feed interfaces, almost like mini apps, that are on top of the blockchain that allow people to collect things, mint things, trade things within the feed.

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Um, I think it is not... Like Blue Sky, it is not as crowded as Twitter, so there is not as much content. Mm-hmm.

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But we're gonna experiment with, uh, being a content, uh, juggernaut on there for Clone, um, by sharing the same headlines that we're aggregating. Um- That's a good idea. Yeah. So I mean, I am...

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Well, Farcaster is the protocol. Warpcast is the actual platform. I don't think it really matters at this point. Okay. Well- I don't think anyone's committed to that or anything- I'm on there-...

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if you really- I think, let me... I, I believe I'm on there under Princess Daisy- I think that-... with an underscore...

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the reason why it's left out of mainstream, or I guess, I don't know, 404 could be considered mainstream, but left out of media, hasn't broken through, is it, at the moment, it's currently just crypto Twitter users.

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Mm-hmm. Like, basically everybody on crypto Twitter went to Warpcast, Farcaster, whatever you wanna call it. And so it's sort of like an echo chamber of people who are into crypto.

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And if you're not into crypto, then it's pretty hard to find content there that is interesting to you.

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And that's part of why they're seeding different grants to different communities, to try to jumpstart a more active conversation around things besides blockchain stuff.

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Uh, what I have found is that there's a lot of really smart people there, and so if you're wanting to have a conversation that's a little bit more thoughtful around certain aspects of-Technology, then it's there.

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But it's not an entertaining place, and I feel like it's hard to show up somewhere daily and not have a clear sense of what you want to learn, unless...

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I think a lot of men like to go there and talk about their ideas, which is cool. [laughs] But, like, that's not compelling to me. Like, I, I open Twitter every day because it's entertaining first. Mm.

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And then I'll learn some stuff and get into some rabbit holes and write some stuff, and like... But, like, it's... What's the thing? Like, the carrot or the stick or whatever.

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Like, they haven't figured that out over there. Mm. I'm curious what you think, Dina, but that's my experience of it. Yeah, that's my experience.

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I think that there's, yeah, little interesting tools they've built into it that make it different from Blue Sky. Certainly, the, the audience is very different from Blue Sky.

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It's definitely more tech optimists, um, less tech cynicism than you find, uh, there. Uh, but yeah, I, they haven't, they haven't broken out, um, for all those reasons. But you should give it a go. This is...

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Wait, okay, wait. Here's a question, though, with that. Um, more and more, you know, there's the internet splinters, whatever. There's no monocultural social media platform anymore.

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The implication in talking about, like, why hasn't it broken through is that it should, but is- does it need to?

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A- and also does Blue Sky need to break out of, like, the very liberal demographic that it's currently in, right? Uh, is, like, do we need more... This is the, like, the, the tech eternal growth thesis, right?

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Like, do we, do these places need to get a ton more users, or is it okay for them to sustain We have a cozy-... whatever amount... cozy internet guy- Cozy, yeah... here, here.

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We've Well, I mean, I'm- We'll pull this up... I'm not, I'm not sure which one's better. Like, I, I spend... I have a Blue Sky account. I barely spend any time there.

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I burn many hours of my life on Twitter week to week, um, because I like, I like [laughs]... Uh, whether or not I like the fire hose, I am certainly addicted to it. Um- Totally...

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but yeah, I guess this is a cozy internet question about, like, do we need large social media platforms, or do, do we want a bunch of 48s? Right.

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I think, uh, I, I think practically, uh, the, the businesses will struggle if they don't reach- Mm, mm... a certain number of users to be able to m- do whatever monetization they plan to do.

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I, I don't know what, what Blue Sky's latest thinking is. Um, I don't know that Farcaster is... I, I, it, that, that all depends on the model, I suppose. But I do think- Mm...

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that that's, like, the first thing that comes up for me is can they sustain without having numbers Which the answer generally, I would say in, in any, for any social media platform is no. [laughs] Right.

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I'm like, I think it would be totally fine to be a cozy internet corner, like PEI.FY- Mm-hmm... if they hadn't raised $150 million from [laughs] Andreessen Horowitz. Yeah. Like, that's, that's the issue there.

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Like, they have to- Farcaster parent company, to be clear. N- as far as I know- Mm... Perfectly Imperfect has not raised from Andreessen Horowitz. Oh, that's what I'm saying. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah.

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Like, PI, like PI.FY or whatever is like- Yeah, you could be on the cozy internet- He's, like, building it with his friend or whatever... if you bootstrap. Yeah. Right. Right.

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Well, okay, speaking of cozy internet, though, we need to talk about your website, which is a Google Doc, and, um, it's magnificent. Original no-code. Um... [laughs] So yeah, it's true no-code. Um- [laughs] Framer Who.

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Francis brought up, I don't know who told him about this, that it's, it's kinda like, uh, Rachel Tashjian's Opulent Tips or Caitlin Phillips's- Chris Levin, you know who told me about this... Bold Gift Guides.

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You're not supposed to know about that. I know about these things. It's not for you. [laughs] What do you, what do you know about that? Opulent Tips are not for men. I don't know what that is.

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Caitlin Phillips's Gift Guide is not for you. I don't know what that is either. Uh- Wow, okay. Well, you guys can know about it. We're bending gender norms here. It's Boys' Club. We are. We're always doing that.

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[laughs] No, I'm, I'm giving him a hard time. So Opulent Tips is, um, it is, it's so funny. It's, it's distributed, it's a newsletter distributed from Rachel Tashjian's personal email.

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She's, like, an amazing fashion critic and writer. And she has to send it in batches because she actually has a list that's too big to BCC everyone at this point. It's not on B-private And anyone can get it.

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So et cetera. Okay. You just have to email her and ask her to be on the list. That's the sort of friction.

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And then Caitlin Phillips is, like, New York's hottest, most powerful publicist that most people have never heard of.

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And she famously would do a Google Doc gift guide every year, where she would have, like, really obscure stuff, and she would ask, like, like literally, like she would ask, like, people like Rick Owens, you know, like, "What are you- Okay...

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what would you buy?" And so you would be reading it, and it would be like CVS tights, and then it would be like this $600, like, fish work. It's almost, like, even more bespoke Perfectly Imperfect.

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It was, it was like entertainment. Okay. Mm-hmm. Like, I don't think anyone was buying this stuff. Um, now I think she moved it to Substack. Mm. But, um, I think those are, like, really good examples of, like,

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cozy internet and also sort of, like, people vampire attacking existing infrastructure to use it in different ways. And, like, your website is famously editable by anyone that visits.

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[laughs] Um, and I love how when you first relaunched it in that format, people were, like, trying to warn you. They're like, "By the way, I can edit this." And it's like, yeah, that's the point.

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[laughs] Um, but I'm curious, like, what have you learned or observed of the visitor behavior through, through this time since launching?

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Um, I think it, it was weird to have an idea that I was really excited about, that it seems like people are just as excited as me.

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[laughs] I thought, like, we were gonna do it and people were gonna be like, "Okay," and I was gonna be like, "I love this thing." And the response has been really positive, which has been really, really nice.

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Um, uh, the other thing is that I'm surprised at how little people shill. Like, I thought a big issue was gonna be that we're gonna need to go there and, like, clear out people's, like, pro- self-promotion constantly.

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Mm-hmm. And that actually has not happened as much. Like, people have, like, a respect for the space that I'm actually quite surprised by, and that might just speak to, like, the audience that- Mm...

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is around Boys' Club, and people feel like they're in Boys' Club, so they want to respect theUm, the land [laughs] that we own as millennials. [laughs] This Google sheet. Um- This Slack space. [laughs] The Slack space.

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Has anyone thrown up a dating personal, or like people trying to like... Uh, no. Actually people have...

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Well, some people have been like, when we have events, people will go on there and be pretty pushy about wanting to get into the event, and be like- Oh... "Hey, I've registered. You haven't pushed me through. Please do."

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So that's happened a few times. That's not surprising. But the respect that people have for it as a place that is a communal space to talk about tech has felt pretty cool.

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The other thing that people do that I find funny is they have suggestions for copy that we've written- Mm... where they'll s- like make little notes the way that they think it should be written.

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And, uh, depending on where I'm at in my cycle, I think it's nice, or I'm like, "Shut the fuck up." Yeah. I wrote this. No, I- I don't need you to weigh in. [laughs] That's a Ludo phase. [laughs] I have a gun.

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I would rank that Ludo phase, I have a gun. [laughs] Um, so but Dina, what do you think? Um, yeah, I think that tracks. We've had to clear out, I think, maybe less than 20 slurs. [laughs] Which- Wow...

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is great, you know. Uh, that feels like we're... That feels like a fine number. Over how many months? What's the slurs per month? Um, well, we're, we launched on January 1st, so I guess that's about- Five...

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three or four. Five SPM. Oh. Mm. No, probably more. I don't know. I'm not good at math. But- [laughs] But, uh- I just wanted to say SPM. [laughs] Yeah, SPM. [laughs] We know. But eight SPM. Um, a fine amount. Uh,

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and yeah, I think people have respect for it for whatever reason. They're like, "Oh, I've been given powers here." Mm. "I need to...

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You know, with great power comes great responsibility," and people seem to, seem to, uh, abide by that. But it's been really fun.

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Honestly, you, you made the joke, like no code tools, but like that's literally where it came from. Yeah. Like we're, we're dumb bitches.

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Like everyone's like, "Oh, use my no code tool, and like just spin up a thing," whatever. And I'm like, "No, but literally." Well, 'cause the no code tools, even those require like a pretty high- Totally...

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like professional level of knowledge about web design, et cetera. Totally. Or even like all the Cursor... I've been like trying to do some Cursor stuff, and I'm in like JSON files, and I'm like how did I...

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I don't even understand. I have no framework by which- The only Jason I know is like the guy on Twitter who, you know, posts- [laughs] Totally. [laughs] Totally.

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Um, but yeah, I think people like overestimate when it comes to s- tooling, stuff like that, and we were like, "No, but we just need something that we can update all the time."

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And like us, and that means a certain level of infrastructure. So that's where that came from. This is like a level- But it's been nice and really fun... of low friction that I actually love.

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Because the, the friction here would be like, you know, okay, y- you draft the thing in the Google Doc, or you draft the thing in the Figma, and then you translate it to the, to the, you know, whatever, the, the web building app.

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Um, I don't know why. May- I, maybe I don't have any specific like moral value around the friction idea, but something about this is just so much more appealing.

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I think one of the things that was really i- important to us, I guess, when we were thinking about this phase of Boys' Club is what we find about the internet that's so fun is that it's communal, it's alive.

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The feeling that something is alive. Mm. And we wanted that to be represented in our website, and it would be very cool if we were technical and that could be part of the process for everybody, but we're not.

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So that's what we kept coming back to was how do we have something that every day we can talk about the things that we're excited about, the things that are happening on the internet, that feels like it's, yeah, active and not this stale thing that kind of just sits there and exists.

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And, um, so it's been wonderful. And over time gets more and more dead. Yes. And even like with the best intentions. And like at, at that, that act of dying is like so sad when you visit it, like whatever, however.

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Like it's so sad to me to visit something that's like dead in that way. Mm. From an entity that is so alive, I think is the, the, the, um, what we really wanted to avoid. Yeah.

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This reminds me of at a previous job, um, my boss told me, he was like, "Francis, you have to stop making so many Notion pages for everything," 'cause we were- Mm... operating in Notion.

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He was like, "Look at the people who've been here and gone, or like who've been laid off, and like look at the graveyard, the mass graveyard of Notion pages- Oh... that they've made." Nothing worse. "For what?"

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Nothing worse. Like, "Dude, just do the thing. Stop like making the Notion page to do the thing, to do the thing. Just like just do the thing."

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Which I think that too is why like the Google Doc aspect is appealing is it's you're not making the Google Doc to make the thing, you're just directly making the thing. Yeah. Yeah. True story.

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Notion, Notion guy making too many Notion- I've never understood the appeal of Notion- We, um-... to be honest. That takes me back to a time... So Boys' Club started as a DAO, sort of. Mm-hmm.

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And we had all these incredibly smart people around Boys' Club trying to sort of figure out what is this thing that's like now in the world. And there were so, an unprecedented amount of Notion docs flying around. Ugh.

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And Dina and I were like, "We are allergic to this. Like we wanna build together. We want people to feel empowered to put their ideas about what Boys' Club's gonna be."

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And there was probably like at one point maybe six different Notion docs that were supposed to be like the community database for Boys' Club. [laughs] And I was like, "Clear it off. Clear it..."

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And like someone was paying the bill, and we were just like, "We're canceling this credit card." [laughs] Like basically we were just like, "This is not gonna exist anymore."

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[laughs] So I'm glad to be past that, that phase of Boys' Club. Do you guys feel like you have a good memory? Because I've been...

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Sorry, this is like way more abstract than what we're talking about, but I think it has to do with like second brain stuff. Mm. Mm-hmm. Like I use Google Docs and like phone notes.

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Like I'll get off of a call, and I'll ca- I'll name the Google Doc like, "Phone call with Julie 4/21," and there'll be like two things in there, like an article they told me to read, and like,

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um, you know, somebody's email address. And I just like, I'm like, "Okay, I can find that later if I really need it." Like I have a very good memory.

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And I've realized that like-That is part of how I relate to relationships. Like, I think there are relationships where it's, like, doing things together, very present-centered relationship.

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That's what constitutes the friendship or the romantic relationship. I have trouble forming deep relationships with people that do not have a good memory. Hmm.

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'Cause to me, every relationship I have is basically a repository of everything that person has ever told me about themself, and it's hard for me when, like, people can't reciprocate because I wanna be in a shared reality that isn't just, "We're at the bar together right now."

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It's, "Here is everything I know about you." Is that crazy? Daisy, in another, in another life, you're one of those guys that has, like, a custom CRM on every single person- [laughs]...

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you've met with, like, the number of kids they have. [laughs] And I respect it. Yeah. I respect it tremendously. I, um, I have a really bad memory, but I do, uh, I do love a callback joke. Mm. And love a callback moment.

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So I will... I do have a memory, a good memory for that, and I think that that, I think that that is a beautiful thing to have in relationship with other people. Well, here's the callback.

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Natasha, how has your luck been since a pigeon [laughs] shat on you twice last time I saw you? [laughs] Oh my God. [laughs] Ouch. No, literally. Did it turn you around? Beautiful callback.

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I was like, man, I've gotta have- Did everything turn around? Um, yeah. [laughs] You know what? Actually, I, I, it got worse. It got worse. The following week was bad. Hmm. And then it, it, we've, we've gone up since.

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So I think it's just- Hmm... like a little bit of a delayed- [laughs]... um, luck that- Yeah... that we're experiencing. I would say one of the things that is problematic about Dina's terrible memory- Hmm...

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is that she has insane conviction about that memory. Mm-hmm. She'll be like, "No, this is what happened." [laughs] And I'm like, "That is absolutely wrong, like, like foundationally wrong."

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And she's like, "No, no, no, I'm certain." There was, like, this, th- some, some people in our circle that she was like, "They dated." And I was like- [laughs]... "They, these two women never dated."

239
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[laughs] And, and Dina was, like, certain. Like... And I was like, "I'm gonna text them right now and I'm gonna ask." And they were like, "No, absolutely not." I don't know where Dina [laughs] got that.

240
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This is the delusional confidence they talk about startup founders requiring, uh, that, uh, startup founders have to have. Yeah. It's the- It's, it's a beautiful thing... I'm the, I'm blocking your episode.

241
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I'm the gaslighting- [laughs]... in the workplace girl. [laughs] What is this? Uh, strong convictions, strong opinions loosely held. Yes. [laughs] Strong, strong memories loosely remembered. Yeah.

242
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[laughs] Loosely accurate. Um, I feel like my memory is getting worse and worse, and I think I have to blame, I have to blame internet addiction for that. Hmm.

243
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I think that that is a, a direct result of- Well, wait, wait, wait, wait. This is the thing. Okay.

244
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To call it back to, like, half an hour ago when we were talking about, uh, whether it's something that's happening to me, you were saying whether, "Is it something that's happening to me or something that's happening to the world and in the world?"

245
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Okay. Yeah.

246
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And I think this is a case of that, whereas, like, is it a case of c- I'm speaking from my personal experience too here, like, is it a case of, like, getting older and having more information that you've consumed- Hmm...

247
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over time that, like, crowds out other... Like, I used to pride myself on remembering names and faces, and now I, like, I don't really give a shit.

248
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I, I will meet somebody, and I'm like, "You know, hopefully I'll remember them next time I see them." In and out. [laughs] I probably won't. [laughs] You know? Like, that's, I just know that about myself now.

249
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But 20, or let's say 15 years ago, and I'm, like, a teenager, perfect at it. When I was, like, 11, I used my mom's credit card to buy a video game once, and then I remembered it for the next five years. Um, you know?

250
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Whoa. Like, I can't even- Okay... I don't... Could be... I, I only know, like, two phone numbers now, right? Like- Mm-hmm... so is this a thing of, like, internet addiction? Is it a thing of, like, br- more broadly?

251
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Is it a thing of inter- internet addiction personally, or is it a thing of, like, being in your 30s? Just more information. Um, I know. I really don't know.

252
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I have, I've genuinely been thinking about it a lot because I'll get to the end of the week, and I'll be like, I used to be able to recall this story that happened and who told it to me. Mm-hmm.

253
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And now I'm like, I know the story, but I cannot remember the person that was saying the words- Hmm... about this story. Hmm. And, uh, honestly, like, a little concerning. I'm like, "What's going on?

254
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[laughs] What's going on? I need to tap into something here." But I, I've been relating it back to, um, I'm a, a terrible speller. Like, like legitimately really bad. Like, Dina- Plus one. Yeah, shit.

255
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[laughs] It's really bad. Really, really bad speller. It's- Really, really, like, genuinely, like, it's- Shocking. [laughs] It's crazy. And I attribute that to- Good thing you don't write a newsletter...

256
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never living in a world without spellcheck. Like- Mm... my experience of the world has been entirely- Mm... with spellcheck.

257
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And now I feel like is this, is the memory atrophy a result of ChatGPT and being able to go somewhere and just constantly ask questions and build a reality around whatever I'm thinking about online in a way that is much more interactive than it's ever been?

258
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Yes. So- Sorry, go ahead. What? No, say it. Well, my new beef with ChatGPT is I will purposely try to goad it into giving me bad advice 'cause I'm like...

259
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So okay, so I'm like, if I'm in conflict with another person, I'll go to ChatGPT as if I'm them, and I tell them my, their side of the story- [laughs]... to see what it says. Oh, God.

260
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And then when it's like, "No, you're so valid," I'm like, "That was a trick. You're wrong." And it'll be like, "You're right." [laughs] "That was really bad advice." [laughs] I've just been goading it.

261
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So you use it as a voodoo doll. [laughs] I've just been, like, goading it recently to just be like, um, to see if it will just validate every point of view in a certain situation.

262
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Now that I've realized it basically does, I'm like, "Useless. This is useless." Well, you can tinker the settings there, Daisy, so that it's not quite so affirming, I think. Some people- Well-...

263
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have found some s- some success in that. I, I do think you can tell it, like, how to talk to you, but because I'm not paying for it, I think it just wipes each time. Oh, okay. Got it.

264
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It's like, look, if I wanted, like, uncritical validation, I would just go to my husband- [laughs]... who agrees with me about everything- [laughs]... and doesn't make me justify any of my decisions. Um- [laughs]

265
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He's hotter, and we can touch each other. [laughs] Right. I, I think that's such an interesting way to use ChatGPT, like, in the interpersonal relationships. Like, I...

266
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That's not where I go with it at all, but I think that it's a fascinating- I don't really use it that way. I just wanna see what's up with the people that are, and I can tell you they're getting really bad advice. Right.

267
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Right. [laughs] Mm. This is actually my problem with, um- Therapy... yeah, people who are- [laughs] Exactly.

268
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Um, people who are really excited about AI companionship, and I've heard this argument so many times from people that they... 'Cause I'm sort of, like, anti-AI companion. I'm just like- Mm...

269
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that's, that's not a world I really wanna live in- I would agree... to be quite honest. It's not a companion. It doesn't- Thank you... meet the definition of what a companion is. Exactly.

270
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And I have heard from people like, "No, think of it as like training wheels." Like, someone can have a relationship with an AI partner, and it can teach them how to be in a relationship with somebody.

271
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And I'm like, that's a fucking crazy take. That is not real. Like, people are actually not linear. The way that people make decisions and have emotions and the way that they exist in the world is not...

272
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It actually doesn't make sense most of the time.

273
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And that is impossible to have a relationship with something that is literally trained to be logical and make sense, and have that be training wheels for a relationship is such a flawed argument, in my opinion.

274
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Yeah, I think- But maybe I'm wrong. Sorry, no, I agree. I think, to me, I wrote something about this, uh, like maybe a year and a half ago or more now, um, about the power of refusal.

275
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And I think to meet the definition of what a companion is, you have to be corresponding with an entity, person, intelligence that has the power of refusal. Mm. Because at the end of the day,

276
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every relationship, um, is subject to that. Like- Mm... in every friendship, in every romantic relationship, part of what makes it dynamic and real is that it can end. Mm. Mm.

277
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One person has the ability to walk away and say, "I no longer want to be in this relationship with you." A computer that is always available to talk with you does not meet that criteria.

278
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It does not have the power of refusal. It can't say, uh, "I'm not going to answer that," or, "I, I need 48 hours," or like, um, you know, "I, I, I don't wanna ever speak to you again." And it's, it's sad that like...

279
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to think of relationships in those terms, 'cause like relationship should be more about like what you could both give each other.

280
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But similar to like what Francis was saying before about like removing all of the friction is a, is a kind of death, like attention is what makes us human, and death is the biological curator that forces

281
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scarcity into our experience on this mortal earth, right? And within relationships, the thing that curates it is the possibility of an ending.

282
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Um, so I don't wanna have a companion that doesn't have the power of refusal, even though that's like the most painful part of any relationship, because it's what makes it real and actually gives it stakes.

283
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Otherwise, you just have a black mirror. Mm-hmm. Thanks, Francis. There it is. [laughs] Sorry. That was, that was, that was [laughs] terrible. [laughs] No, I, I agree.

284
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Um, I was starting to think like, okay, well, what if there is a

285
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ChatGPT or an, an, an, an AGI, an AI that does have that power of refusal, but then after that it's like, okay, so it would have a specific logic that like once you press these buttons, then it pulls away.

286
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But I'm imagining like, you know, an, an, an AI chat interface where it leaves. You don't leave, it leaves.

287
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Now there's nothing there, and you, at least that email address, whatever, like is not able to engage with this AI again. Like, it has refused you.

288
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Um, but then that's useless, 'cause you can create a new email or you can, you know, go to Claude instead of ChatGPT.

289
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Uh, and then I was kinda going to like, okay, so what if there, you know, there's only one AI product, 10 years, 20 years, whatever, somehow, it's just the one AGI or whatever, um, and it's... and that can refuse.

290
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And then you can, then you could almost become like a second-class citizen- Citizen... if we're in this world. I'm really, I'm really taking it to maybe like too far here.

291
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[laughs] Well, but the people who need to learn how to be in relationships already believe themselves to be second-class citizens. Mm. Like, they already have that grievance.

292
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They don't accept that, I'm sorry to say, it's mainly women- Mm-hmm... have the power of refusal. They're paying for OnlyFans. You're talking about incels. Yeah. Incels.

293
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Incels even, and I mean like, and, and even like soft incels that only have some of these beliefs and don't take it to like any form of violent ideation, like I don't think you could ever have a consumer experience where

294
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the thing on the other side of the screen can refuse, because it runs against everything that consumption has meant- Well, but because the company-... and digital consumption... doesn't wanna lose money.

295
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The company wants your money. Yes, exactly, and that's like... I mean, what is OnlyFans?

296
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It's like the fantasy of a relationship that you pay for, and I'm sure like OnlyFans creators can like block somebody and refund their money, but as a last resort. Mm. Um,

297
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and that's why OnlyFans is like inc- incredibly popular and, and scaled. Um, I don't think you can scale a consumer experience, um, that refuses people unless it's like Soho House or gambling. [laughs] You know?

298
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People will accept losses if they think there's status associated with, um, not being refused, but will they accept that in interpersonal digital relationships? I don't know.

299
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It kinda seems like people want the opposite.Isn't this the plot of Her? Like, didn't Scarlett Johansson's AI leave? Yes. She leaves at the end of the movie. Yes. Nobody fucking talks about that. I haven't seen it for...

300
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since it came out. Everyone idolizes the show. Yeah, she leaves. [laughs] The whole point is she gets so smart that she fractures into a million different intelligences and breaks up with him.

301
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And then she's out, and she's like, "I'm going to- And then she's out... the singularity," or whatever- Yeah... and she leaves. So- Oh, they just reinvented Her from first principles. [laughs] Wait. [laughs] Yeah.

302
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I've actually never seen it. I need... I know I need to, but I don't know. That and The Matrix. It's a great, it's a great movie. You should definitely watch it. I mean, I think it gives you a lot to think about.

303
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It's speaking exactly to what you guys are saying. And, and spoiler alert, sorry, for anyone who hasn't seen it. It's a t- ten-year-old movie, so I don't feel like I've- Yeah, it's allowed...

304
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really crossed any boundaries there. But she leaves. Her AI leaves in the end. But I mean, I, I don't know, I s- I saw something yesterday that was like, people keep...

305
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are, are concerned about, like, her, like, being real, where all these men will have all these companions, AI companions, and I think we're starting to see a lot of that, certainly.

306
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And like AI OnlyFans will be its own whole world. Um, but, uh, it was like, but I actually think women are a lot more susceptible to AI companionship, or susceptible is maybe framing it already.

307
00:50:23.192 --> 00:50:37.252
[laughs] But that that is, I think, equally as maybe big of a market, potentially, for women to have that type of connection. Yeah. Kat D has talked about that a lot, um, that it's really like the AI boyfriends.

308
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I don't know. I think, like, it depends, like, how deep of a relationship you want.

309
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Like, if your goal is to feel loved unconditionally, I think eventually you realize that, like, being loved unconditionally has to coexist with the possibility of being refused unconditionally. Mm. Gotta have conditions.

310
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Um, okay. I... There's one thing I did wanna bring up before we wind down. Uh, I...

311
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Consuming a lot of y'all's content as I did in preparation for this, um, you are Polymarket people in a way that I am not, which is to say that I have not ever used Polymarket. Um- Yeah, you guys are poly, right?

312
00:51:14.671 --> 00:51:22.452
[laughs] We're poly. We're so poly. But okay, no. So I was listening to, uh, Robinhood CEO, Vladimir Tenev, on the Decoder podcast, like a week or two ago.

313
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And, um, Nili Patel, the host of Decoder, was kind of arguing a- with him about whether or not prediction markets are gambling.

314
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And of course, Vlad, being the CEO of a company that has a prediction market, is saying, "No, it's not. Um, it's actually a utility, and a public utility in terms of understanding the news." Um,

315
00:51:44.092 --> 00:51:50.572
curious what you two think about that. I mean, I think prediction markets are global information hubs.

316
00:51:51.052 --> 00:52:03.631
I think that the r- the foundation of them is gambling, and I think that they wouldn't exist without the idea of some sort of financial upside. I think they are held up by gambling addicts, for sure.

317
00:52:03.672 --> 00:52:15.332
But I do think that they are in... I do think they are, in many ways, like the future of where media goes. Like, people are looking to them to understand what people care about, what people believe.

318
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The easiest example of this, of course, is politics, but I think as it becomes easier and easier to trade on information through these different platforms, I think they will become where people access a lot of their information about at like public sentiment.

319
00:52:33.712 --> 00:52:46.052
Mm. I think it's flawed and problematic in many ways, but I can see a world where that happens, and that's what people turn to. Who needs a Pew Research Center when you have Polymarket? Exactly. [laughs] Exactly, kinda.

320
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So I don't know. That's sort of my take. I'm willing to be wrong about that, and I feel like it's, um... there's a complexity to it that those three sentences don't bring to the table, but that's sort of how I see them.

321
00:52:58.992 --> 00:53:13.942
Yes, I feel similarly. I feel like deeply imperfect, uh, very flawed, super problematic. But they did call the election whatever, whatever it is, eight hours before- Mm...

322
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any of the mainstream media outlets did. And you gotta look at that as something. And there is something, I think, in a world where we're, like, increasingly skeptical about...

323
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I don't wanna become like a mainstream media person, so I'm gonna, like, pivot here very quickly.

324
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But we're, we're increasingly [laughs] skeptical about mainstream media and, like, figuring out where to get our s- to source information. Um, I don't know, looking to a Polymarket at that point, and

325
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they, there, there's a track record there of a lot of things that they have been, that have been right on that platform- Mm... um, that I think is worthy of, uh, of, uh, attention. My attention, certainly. Yeah.

326
00:54:01.372 --> 00:54:12.372
I saw a tweet the other day- But it's all gambling addicts. [laughs] Yeah. 100%. Like, I'm not the- Which is why I'm not on it, because I know I'd lose a lot of money. Yeah. I mean, I- He likes complicated parlays.

327
00:54:12.572 --> 00:54:21.991
I, [laughs] I respect that. [laughs] I have... I think I've- They don't like me... only broken even on Pol- Like, I've never made any money. It's not really what's interesting about it for me personally.

328
00:54:22.142 --> 00:54:36.492
But, um, but yeah, I mean, I think that that is the engine of Polymarket. It's the engine of Kalshi. And the CEOs, of course, are not gonna say that. There's no world w- that they would. Um, but skin in the game.

329
00:54:37.612 --> 00:54:44.371
Things change when there's skin in the game for people, and I think that that's what it boils down to, and I think that that's what I find really interesting about it.

330
00:54:44.452 --> 00:54:50.822
And, like, as a future of media or as a future of information, feels like a, I don't know, worth looking at. I think...

331
00:54:51.612 --> 00:54:59.342
This is not a well-formed thought, but I do think when you look at sort of the last few years of at least the internet I've been on, there was this...

332
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What got me into-Crypto, Web3, all this stuff is this idea of a distributed ownable internet.

333
00:55:08.840 --> 00:55:29.980
And really coming back to the quote that you talked about at the beginning, where I think there's a disillusionment about the world, about institutions, about our future, and there was something really compelling about this idea of, okay, I'm spending all of my time, all of my social capital being built on this thing that I can't hold or touch or, like, really have in a meaningful way.

334
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And then you see crypto and you see Web3, and all of a sudden you're being told, "Okay, you can actually own this part of, of your identity that exists on- online."

335
00:55:39.720 --> 00:55:49.340
And that was i- incredibly compelling and something that I felt was worth being a part of and trying to design around, and that was my experience.

336
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I think a lot of that didn't work at all, and, um, I saw an incredible tweet the other day when the market was crashing, and it was like, "Thank God I have all these collectible NFTs," which just, like, really got me.

337
00:56:02.890 --> 00:56:05.420
And so it, you know, it didn't work in many ways, but there...

338
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I do think when you're now fast-forwarding to twenty twenty-five and you're looking at the ways in which people have created technology that incentivizes certain behavior and incentivizes people to share their opinions and to put their own capital behind their beliefs, that is something that has continued to work and the technology actually is useful for.

339
00:56:31.360 --> 00:56:50.320
And so I do think there's, like, a harvesting of information that's happening because people now have this belief that they can profit from it in a way that I think you could tie back to, like, a twenty twenty-one, uh, sort of gospel around digital ownership and money that moves freely on the internet and your own, uh, participation in that.

340
00:56:50.340 --> 00:57:00.300
Well- So- Oh, sorry. No, go ahead. I was gonna say, like, the way you... I forget exact- exactly how you phrased it, but you were basically saying, like, it's about, like, putting your money where your mouth is.

341
00:57:00.400 --> 00:57:10.380
But then I think the other side of it is, like, oftentimes it actually just leads to putting your mouth where your money is, and then there's no real thing you're standing on other than, like, "I wanna make money."

342
00:57:10.520 --> 00:57:26.420
Um, but that's more of just a clever turn I wanted to make without knowing how to land it, so I'll stop. [laughs] I, I, I, I, I respect that. I don't think that people are betting on their values.

343
00:57:26.620 --> 00:57:33.220
I think they're betting on- Money... k- on con- what their conviction is- Mm... around a certain outcome. It's futarchy.

344
00:57:33.380 --> 00:57:45.780
It's trying to predict what you think other people believe, and, like, futarchy has a sense that, like, actually that would lead to more accurate outcomes than actual participants in the system voting their values.

345
00:57:46.380 --> 00:58:01.020
Um, and I think that that's probably true in aggregate, but it's also very dangerous in certain environments that are, like, not supposed to be subject to public sentiment. For example, like civics.

346
00:58:01.120 --> 00:58:10.440
[laughs] Uh, in the sense, like, you know, you have democratic participation, but then you have experts do the work.

347
00:58:10.540 --> 00:58:34.150
Um, and we're, we're essentially being, like, governed by meme right now because it's a way for people outside of the system to exert, you know, tremendous sentiment pressure on markets like the stock market or environments like the stock market, which were historically not subject to real-time sentiment and memetics.

348
00:58:34.820 --> 00:58:42.420
And the stock market has become a form of entertainment as a result because we can all participate in that entertainment system.

349
00:58:42.500 --> 00:58:57.400
So the opinions that we have about it are contributing to, like, this futarchy rather than the opinion of somebody like, what's his name, Ray Dalio, you know, determining what happens. Dalio hive, stand up.

350
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[laughs] So I'm gonna make a prediction, which is, and I'm gonna put a hundred dollars on it, which is that this has been Tasteland, and this is the end of the episode. Oh. Thank you for coming on.

351
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See what you did there. You can Venmo me. [laughs] See you next week.

352
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[outro music]