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[upbeat music] Welcome back to Paceland. I am your co-host, Francis Zehrer. And I'm Daisy Alioto. And Daisy, who are we speaking to today? We are speaking to Paula Mejia.

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She is currently Dirt's primary contributor on the entertainment beat. Uh, she lives in Los Angeles, and she just got back from Coachella, so I know she has some really good stories to share.

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Have you ever been to Coachella? I have not. I've never been a big festival person. Mm-hmm. I did go to Boston Calling. Um- [laughs] Which is a much smaller festival.

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Um- Is that just, like, a concert where the Dropkick Murphys play? It's... That's not inaccurate. Um, I think the year I went, Beck was the headliner. Mm. Um, oh, no, it was Beck and, um, m- not coming to me.

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Anyway, um, no, I've never done Lolla, I never did Bonnaroo, I never did Coachella. Mm. Um, [laughs] that sounds like, sounds like a- [laughs]... some lyrics.

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Um, but I think in general- You sound like you're a, you're a, you sound like a male member of, of Vanderpump Rules. Yeah, right. Um, well, I feel...

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This is not Vanderpump, but I was thinking I feel like Dorinda these days, 'cause anytime somebody asks me how I am, I'm just like, "Not well, bitch." [laughs] Um, we love Dorinda. Mm-hmm. Uh, America's princess di.

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But anyhoo, um- Princess Di... in general with concerts, they're not something that I initiate going to. Oh.

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If somebody asks me to a concert, I usually will say yes, but I've literally never been like, "I should buy tickets to that concert," and, like, initiate it. Which is, uh, it's- it's weird.

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There's, like, a lot of activities like that for me. It's something I, like, forget to do. Like, I- Yeah... I only go to a few a year. Um, I, you know, it's j- like, I, they're fun. I love concerts. Let, let- Yeah...

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let, let the record show I love concerts. Uh, but I just like to [laughs] I like to be in my house. I love to be in my house. Mm-hmm. I'm, I'm trying to remember the last concert I went to. I remember mine.

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Probably- It was Frog. Oh, yeah. I mean, Friends With Benefits. Mm-hmm. Mm. That was fun because- That's a festival of sorts... it was a festival. I did see a lot of artists in a row. Mm.

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You were on the, you were on the, uh- I was on the intellectual track. You were on the intellectual... The intellectual [laughs] planet. But, um, I, mm, I'm having trouble thinking of a concert I've gone to since then.

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Anyways, um, my first Dirt byline is up today about brand sillage, which came out of, uh, I think, I think that came up when we did, when we podded with Future Commerce the other week, but on their episode, not on our episode.

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Yeah, you riffed too close to the sun and you got a little free assignment out of it. [laughs] It was, it was fun. Look- Yeah...

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let- let- let the record show, I think, I think I said this, um, after we finished recording that, but I went and checked again earlier. I first pitched Dirt in June of 2021, and I was rejected. Um- By who? I don't know.

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A, a known Dirt editor. Oh, wow. Okay. We could, we could, we could parse, uh- Roll tape... the, the pros, uh, [laughs] of, of, of that. Parse the syntax. Um, but yeah, no, it w- it was a... I enjoyed writing it.

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Well, I enjoyed editing it the day that I had yet to run. [laughs] And, you know, you're welcome to pitch me again anytime. [laughs] But look behind the scenes. Mm-hmm. [laughs] Yeah. That was fun.

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Anyways, our guest is here. Let's let her in. Let her in. [upbeat music] Paula, you just got back from Coachella. I did, yeah. Uh, somehow I'm still in one piece. Mm-hmm.

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So here we are. Paula, I heard you had to have some emergency dental work while you were at Coachella. At Coachella? [laughs] Yes. This is true.

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I mean, they didn't have, like, an emergency dental tent at the festival, which maybe they should. There was no tend activation? [laughs] Yeah. Oh, yeah.

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There, there was no dental activation, although they had so many other ones. They had Electrolyte, they had Tampax, they had so many activations. Oh, my God.

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But yeah, but I did have to have emergency dental surgery because... And it was for the least cool reason of all time. Like, it wasn't like I, like, went into the mosh pit and, like- [laughs]...

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was throwing 'bows or something, no. Mm-hmm. I was... Let me paint the scene for you. Please, please. I'm sitting,

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I'm sitting in the tent, like, where you get food to catch a breather, 'cause I'd been running around all day. Mm-hmm. This is also the hottest day of the weekend. It's, like, 105 degrees, right? Jeez.

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So, and, you know, the s- the sun had gone down. I was watching the Marias. They were covering Love Fool by Cardigan. Lovely, you know? It's still, like, it's cooler out. I'm like, "Okay, we're catching the vibes.

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Great." And then I'm eating a very mid poke bowl for dinner, and I feel, like, a little, like, kh in my mouth, and I thought that something just got stuck in my tooth. And I'm like, "Okay, I need to get some floss.

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Annoying, whatever." And then as I get up and start moving around, I'm like, "Something is not right." [laughs] And a piece of crispy onion had gotten... Somehow my permanent retainer dislodged in my mouth.

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And so, which I've had for, like- Oh, my God... which I've had for, like, 20 years. And s- so there was just- Yeah...

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like, a piece of metal just hanging out in my mouth, which it, it wasn't painful, but it was clearly one of those things where if I didn't get it taken care of, it was gonna be such a huge problem, like, uh, for the next 48 hours.

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[laughs] And so I- Can't believe your permanent retainer lasted that long. Mine only lasted, like, five years. Oh, really? I, yeah, they really, they really glued that one in good, I guess.

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Uh, but yeah, so I regrettably had to miss Lady Gaga, who I heard was amazing, because I had to get up at 8:00 AM and call every dentist in-The Indio Palm Desert [laughs] area and see, one, are you open on Saturday?

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Two, do you take my insurance? [laughs] And so I, yeah, I ended up going last minute.

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They fixed it in, like, five minutes, and it was so much more expensive than you thought it would be, and allegedly my insurance will cover it, and here we are. But yes, that was...

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It was definitely an unexpected mishap, for sure. I had, like, all the blisters you think you might get, my feet hurt, and then I had to get emergency dental work. [laughs] So there you go.

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You're sort of like the Hunter S. Thompson of, like, having your retainer dislodge at Coachella.

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[laughs] I was thinking, like, if you had had to miss Gaga 'cause you had a migraine, that would've been, like, extremely on brand, though. Yeah. Because that's her- That's very true. Yeah. What is the medication?

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We ran a piece about her famous pharma ad. Gaga, ph- pharma ad? Yeah. Is it Zir- Zyrtec, or is that for allergies? Zyrtec's for allergies. Zyrtec is for allergies, for sure. Well, let's see. Nurtec. Okay. Valid mistake.

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Nurtec, reheating Zyrtec's nachos. [laughs] I'm sorry, that was terrible. Okay. Well, other than that, Mrs. Lincoln, how was the opera? [laughs] It was, it was a blast, actually.

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I was not sure how it was gonna work with it being so unbelievably hot, but I did something that was a total game changer. On the way out from LA, I stopped at Old Navy, and I bought, like, several all linen getups. Oh.

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Key. Key. Like, last year I had just done... You know, how you dress is, like, a whole thing, and it's definitely a fashion show out there, but for me,

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I am such a baby in hot weather to begin with, which I wrote about for Dirt at [laughs] one point. You did. It- Yeah. Having-... makes her sad on multiple levels.

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It makes me so sad and anxious and just stirs up a bunch of, uh, teenage trauma from growing up in Houston and dealing with hurricanes.

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But, um, it ended up being fine, and I thought the curation of the music was really, really good this year- Mm-hmm... um, especially for more, like, techno-y, like, hardcore stuff. Like, the- Yeah. I, I thought it was...

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It was great. I went last year, and I had a lot of fun, but I think I had more fun this year, so it's good. What was the tops and bottoms, wor- worst and best choices? Oh, I thought you were asking about the Old Navy.

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I was like... [laughs] This episode of Taste Land- Was it a matching linen set?... is sponsored by Old Navy. Were, were we, were we in pastels? We were not in pastels. I, I went for neutrals.

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I went for, like, beige, white, and black. Mm-hmm. Mixed up the tones a little bit- Mm-hmm... so I could at least not look like, you know, a substitute teacher- [laughs]...

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you know, teaching pre-K or whatever, uh- [laughs]... in New Mexico. So I, yeah, so that, that was my attempt at fashion. Uh- Mm-hmm... but it was great. Uh, ended up working out. But tops and bottoms, let's see.

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Uh, okay, the LA Philharmonic played at Coachella, first major orchestra to- That can't be right. Yeah. It was incredible. I thought they sounded so good. I mean, they...

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So where they perform here in LA is this incredible concert hall that sounds perfect. It was designed by Frank Gehry. Like, it's very- Mm. Um- It's the Co- it's the Disney Concert Hall, isn't it? Yeah. Yeah.

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Yeah, exactly. Um, and it sounds... Like, the acoustics in there are incredible.

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And so going into it, I really didn't know how the sound would carry in that outdoor festival setting 'cause they were on one of the big outdoor- Oh... festival stages, not one of the indoor tents. And

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I was shocked at how amazing they sounded. Um, the... It was clear. You could hear everything, and they had some pretty wild collaborations. They brought out LL Cool J, uh- [laughs]...

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at one point [laughs] who sounded great, too. Um, they brought out Becky G. They brought out Laufey. Like, they had very... And their whole thing is, like, trying to be, like, you know- The cool philharmonic...

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letting- Yeah. Exactly. The cool philharmonic that is not fussy and be like, "Hey, we'll, you know, we'll play Beethoven's Fifth, but then we'll also, you know, back up pop stars."

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So that was surprising and really wonderful, and they also got the golden hour slot, which was really nice. Mm. So the sun was going down, and, uh, you could hear the philharmonic. That was great. Um, who else was great?

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Um, there were some great punk bands there. Speed, this band from Australia was there- Mm... who I was familiar with in passing, but they, they were great.

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Um, they were in one of the only air-conditioned tents, which is such a godsend, but that's also where some of the heavier stuff tends to be, so it's a fun, kinda different vibe. Uh, so many stage divers.

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That- [laughs]... that was like, it was like a constant rotation of people jumping into the pit. Uh- Well, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait. Are these, like...

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Are these some of the hangers-on that are on the stage, or is, like, is this a large band? Oh, so let's see. They're... No, they're... It was maybe four or five people.

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Um, it was a, you know, a few guitarists, bass player, drummer, vocalist, but they were very down to have people in the audience, like, run up on stage, jump constantly, uh, which was a lot of fun. And

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VTSS, the, uh, DJ from... She's Polish, and I think she lives in the UK, and she does, like, hard techno, industrial. Like, she, she turned that place into very much a rave later on.

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[laughs] And that was, that was so much fun, too. There were a lot of great people. Those were a few that stand out to me. But- Mm-hmm... um, yeah, it was, it was really fun overall.

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Who's the most famous person you saw in the crowd?Nobody. I wa- [laughs] They were all in VIP and I- Yeah... was not. Uh, so I think, you know, later on I would scroll through Du Jour and I'm like, "Oh." Oh, yeah.

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Saw- "Timothée Chalamet is here." [laughs] Like- What about, what are some, uh- I think he'd be cool... fashion trends you saw among the, uh, the, the not very important masses?

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Ooh, what an enlightened question, Francis. [laughs] Well, a few things. Coachella's fascinating for being a cultural barometer in that sense, I think. Um, and

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one thing that was notable that I was thinking about and I wasn't sure, and I'm curious what your take is, is flower crowns, fully out. Hmm. Did not see a single person with one.

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[laughs] And that was so- 'Cause that pe- that peaked, like, 10 years ago at Coachella at this point, or longer? May- maybe. Well, it held on for a while, though.

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It held on and I, there were a few, there were quite a few people last year that had them because Lana Del Rey played, and she has that song about Coachella where- Mm-hmm...

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she mentions the flower crowns, so maybe that was the thing that made people- Talk about wearing the band shirt to the show. Yeah, [laughs] exactly. But no one was doing that this year.

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So I wondered when that died out exactly. Um, I saw so many people wearing those, uh, I don't even know how to describe it, like, these, these metallic, like, shimmering vests, like, that were chrome.

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I saw so many people wearing those. Hmm. Uh, probably because of Gaga, you know, maybe there's some Chromatica connection there. Um, a sea of brat green. People were really...

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Like, the, it was clear that so many people were there to see Charlie. Endless, endless brat summer. Endless brat summer. It, I really thought that this would be the final stake in the heart of brat, but no. Hmm.

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It does not appear so. Um, what else did I see? I saw so many assless chaps also.

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[laughs] Like, I, I thought, like, everyone was doing the cowboy getups last year, and I thought that that was done, and there was less of it this year to some degree, but so many assless chaps.

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Uh, some- something about, something about the buns out is, is happening in culture. Um- Great ventilation, I guess. Mm-hmm. It is good ventilation, but the leather? Ugh, that sounds terrible for the heat. No. No, no.

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Uh, those were the big ones that stood out to me fashion-wise. Yeah. You did another hack that you said was a game changer on your experience. Um, I think you brought it maybe when we chatted yesterday.

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You were in, like, some sort of spa wind-down? Oh, yes. This is my great hack that I will not gatekeep and I will reveal on Tasteland, is... Okay, so

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timing your entrance and exit to the festival is a very hotly debated thing, because there are a few major highways that get to Indio, but they get really clogged up, of course, with people driving from LA, people driving from the Inland Empire, which is about, you know, an hour into the drive from Los Angeles.

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Uh, that's a big choke point for traffic. And so,

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the, the way that people describe it is if you want to leave and actually make it back at a reasonable hour and not sit in traffic for nine hours, like, from the desert to LA, a drive that, by the way, without traffic takes about two hours, it's not long,

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the thing that people say is that you either have to leave, like, at 2:00 a.m. on Sunday night, like, right after the festival, and just go, or you have to leave very early in the morning, or you're totally screwed.

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So last year I was looking at that and after a couple of late nights, I was like, "I don't wanna drive back at 2:00 a.m.

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And getting up super early seems unreasonable," and that also a lot of people will be on the road anyway. So here's what I'm gonna do.

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I'm gonna buy a day pass to a spa at a very nice hotel out here in the desert, and I'm just gonna sit in a steam room for five hours and just wait this out. And

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after those three days, like, you end up breathing in a lot of dust and gunk just from being around there, and so, you know, it's not uncommon for people to get a festival flu or, like, have sinus stuff after.

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So achieves two things. You skip out on traffic, and you get to just sweat out, like, all the bad stuff, and there was nobody there, at least, like, the one that I went to.

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There were some people there yesterday, but it was mostly, like, wealthy retirees, uh, who were talking to their grandchildren, and me. So it was, it was- They were talking to you too? They were talking to me, yeah.

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We were, we were chatting, and it was great. So I did that again yesterday. So I bought the day pass to the spa. I just sat in a steam room, sat by a pool, had a turkey wrap. It was... I did a face mask. It was glorious.

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And then I got home super quick. Talk about VIP. Um- [laughs] That, my own VIP experience. No, it's less expensive than, like, you know, buying the next level of tickets- Yeah...

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by far, and it improves your experience, so. Totally. I also, speaking of tickets, there's been a lot of discourse about how...

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So I think it was Billboard that released a report during Coachella that 60% of people that bought tickets this year did it on a payment plan. Mm-hmm.

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Which is fascinating, and I wonder how much that really says about being a recession indicator or how comfortable people are with putting things on their credit card and accruing debt.

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So it's, it was a fascinating thing to know and then observe going into the festival, but people were sp- still spending money, from what I could see.

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Like, it wasn't like people were really-You know, roughing it in a different way, but it's interesting. Okay, so here's, here's my, my pitch. Malls may be dead, but music festivals are where the spirit of malls live on.

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And I, I...

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The way I got to this idea too is I was thinking about this last night, is that, like, when I was a kid growing up in rural northern California, no- nobody I wanted to see when I was getting into music as a high schooler, no concerts I wanted to see came through my small town.

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So I would go down to San Francisco. I would go to Outside Lands, and that was, like, I don't even know if I could say, like, my first concert was, like, a specific concert, but it was Outside Lands.

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And you go there, and you're running around, and it's like... Yeah, music, music festivals are where malls live on. Malls are dead. Music festivals are malls. Thoughts.

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Maybe music festivals are dead because they are malls. [laughs] Oh, maybe. I, I never made that connection before. Outside Lands is interesting because that's... It's very woodsy. Yeah. I've been once, and it's, um...

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I, I had a great time. Like, you... With the environment, the, the way that that all plays out. It's been, like, 14 years since I, since I went, [laughs] but- Yeah.

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No, I, I haven't been in a long time either, but yeah, music festivals as the new malls. I mean, in a sense, I think that's definitely

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true the way that you see different people and their cliques hanging out at these different watering holes and, you know, you don't have traditional stores, I guess, but the long merch lines and- The whole place is a Hot Topic.

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The whole place is a Hot Topic, although Hot Topic has changed so much too.

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Like, I did a story about this a few years ago where Hot Topic, like, they turned the lights on in the stores, and they started stocking, like, My Little Pony and Taylor Swift merch. And it...

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And so it's not the goth, emo enclave it used to be. They still have the T-shirt wall, but it's very fandom driven now- Mm... in terms of what they offer.

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Yeah Well, which in a way was, was, like, the old, more goth, emo Hot Topic, was that still a fandom-driven thing, but it's just that that's how fandom culture manifested then, whereas now that same kind of, like, spirit of fandom is, is, is in your Taylor Swifts and your My Little Ponies, or am I t- totally making that up?

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I think that's true to a degree because back then, like, something that had a huge cult fandom like The Nightmare Before Christmas was huge, and they did sell, I think, merch from the film for a long time.

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But I think what they told me is that that really went into hyperdrive with Twilight and Napoleon Dynamite, where these, like, absolute, like, cultural behemoths in completely different ways, like one being a major studio film and one being this unsuspecting indie film that was a surprise hit at Sundance and then spawned, like, its own kind of cultural lexicon.

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Like, that... The Vote for Pedro shirts and the Twilight merch just were complete gamechangers for then, and then I think that's when they started to fully make the pivot.

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But then around then was really when I think Marvel started to really take off in film too. Mm. So I think it was a question of these things happening simultaneously too. Do you think that fandom, though, like...

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Uh, like, what I would have thought of as the height of Hot Topic, I feel like fandom was still relatively monocultural and has become more subcultural or at least subcultural in pockets that don't really talk to each other.

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So, like, Taylor Swift and Tim Burton versus, like, yeah, there was these, like, you know, scenes verse emos verse goth things when we were growing up. But, like,

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people who listen to The Cure and, like, people who listen to Panic! at the Disco, like, I feel like there's less daylight between them than, like, Swifties and furries. I do think when we were growing up and in that

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emo/goth heyday of Hot Topic, there was a lot of territorialism- Mm-hmm... when it came to different scenes. But I think subcultures were stronger because you had more physical spaces that they were rooted in.

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And, and that's not to discount, like, the power of, like, community online and everything, but there... I was...

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I'm thinking of that New York Times Magazine piece that made a really compelling argument that there are no subcultures anymore, and there are just, like- Mm-hmm...

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wisps of microtrends that we're trying to grasp onto now that, that I think is really interesting. And I think that that signals that people still really want that sense of community.

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And I do think that the way that fandom works now, there isn't as much interplay with those different communities. But you are allowed to like very disparate things now- Mm-hmm... simultaneously.

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Like, I remember when I was a teenager, like, you had to be very specific about the thing you were into. And, you know, I couldn't admit that I was into The Ramones and maybe that I liked a little bit of pop music.

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[laughs] Like, it was very, like, "No, this is my thing," you know? And now, like, tastes are so eclectic, and people are... People like to experience so many different kinds of things. So I think it's, uh,

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I think it's several things happening at once. Yeah. But at the same time, it does seem like subcultures are more of a consumer behavior- Mm... than a community behavior. Um- Yeah... at least more than they used to be.

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That's a good point. And with more of the monoculture question, I mean, I, I reported this piece last year for GQ, which is probably one of my favorite things I've done,

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w- which is I did a, an oral history of the Vote for Pedro T-shirt. Like, I talked to everyone involved in the film who had any [laughs] passing connection with that.

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Um, I talked to people who manufactured the T-shirts here in Los Angeles. Like, uh, it was fascinating. But I remember that you couldn't go anywhere in-When was that?

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2004 without someone being like, "Your mom goes to college." Like, it was- Mm-hmm... it was so prevalent in culture. And now I, I struggle to think of something that has...

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that especially for an indie film, like I struggle to think of something that has that much heft to it to where it's just ingrained in the way that people are saying things.

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I could be wrong, but I do think that that was more of a thing back then. Well, I think, too, it's just the, the longevity.

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Like right now there's probably a bunch of kids in, in middle school, high school shouting chicken jockey at each other- [laughs]...

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because of the Minecraft movie, but then they probably won't be doing that in like three months, right? But like- Mm...

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if that had come out 20 years ago when there was, when nobody, when Twitter didn't exist and people, you know, kids weren't at school on their phones, something like that, maybe, I don't, maybe not chicken jockey specifically- [laughs]...

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but that has to be... Not to like, you know, it's the phones, use that as- But-... as, as the lens here, but... But kind of. I mean, we didn't have phones in 2004, so the way we entertained each other was quoting movies.

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[laughs] Anchorman. Each other. Yeah. Anchorman, huge. The half-life of an Anchorman quote is much longer than the half-life of a meme. Mm-hmm. I agree with that. Anchorman was massive. You know what I mean?

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Like- Yeah... Skibidi Toilet may, you know, last for a month, but- [laughs]... um, I love Lampas forever. [laughs] Mm-hmm. There's also... Okay, I, I've been thinking about, um, [smacks lips]

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White Lotus and Severance and how... Okay, I l- I really, I really enjoyed liking, watching White Lotus because it's just kind of- Was it too slow or does everyone have ADHD? I don't think it was too slow.

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I thought it was just a fun show to watch that I could enjoy without having to like analyze it or something, whereas Severance is like not a fun show to watch and it's just like an SAT test for everybody on Twitter every, every Friday night.

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Um, but what my, my point here is that like, so I, I've been watching this other show, uh, Wheel of Time, which is based on this classic like fantasy series. It's on Amazon.

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Nobody's talking about it, and this is why- Nope... I like watching it. You're the first person I've heard mention it. I'm not even sure- Ex-... this is a real show. Exactly. I'm gonna go look it up after. But this...

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And see, this is why I enjoy it, 'cause w- like, okay, say White Lotus, the finale comes out and I'm like, I, you know...

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I, I watched it I think on the Monday night because my girlfriend was out of town and y- you know, wanted to watch it with her.

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So I knew I'm gonna scroll on Twitter and I'm gonna see some spoilers, and I hated that, where it's like I wish that I could just like watch the show and like, you know, just watch it as a show and not f-...

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It's, I mean, it's my own fault for being addicted to Twitter too, right? But not have to like, I have to watch it before I can scroll Twitter because I know I'm gonna see the thing, so it's like, ah, it's my homework.

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I have to watch this show. Whereas this other show that nobody's watching that you haven't heard of, it's like I can just watch it and like enjoy it in the way that I wanna watch a TV show- Mm-hmm...

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which is to casually watch it and not feel like I have to like do homework. [laughs] I have not heard of the show either, and now I'm curious.

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But let me present you with a radical alternative to enjoy things: embrace the spoilers. Hm. I truly do not care if- [laughs]... something is spoiled for me, honestly.

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Like, I, if s- if I see something a- that ends up, you know, being like a huge spoiler, fine, whatever. Mm-hmm. I just...

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You know, I'll, I'll tuck that away in my mind, but I'll still watch the thing and try and- 'Cause if the spoiler is the thing that ruins everything, then the thing wasn't good in the first place. Exactly. Mm-hmm.

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So that, that is my, that is my pitch. Embrace the spoilers. Enjoy things whatever you want, during the cultural conversation, months after. Boom. Whatever.

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I think an entire generation, I'm gonna go out on a limb and generalize and say an entire generation was traumatized by the knowledge that Dumbledore dies and- [laughs]... finding that out, not

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like me at summer camp under the covers with a flashlight- [laughs]... in the warm bath of the text. But in some other context, you know, with no warm-up whatsoever, just [laughs] maybe. I don't know.

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It could be a canon event for some people. They got like really upset about spoilers.

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I think too something like a Game of Thrones would be a big culprit of this too because I think that was such a thing that did rely on big twists and like, "Oh, wow, I didn't expect this person was gonna die," et cetera.

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So, uh, may- I d- that's another place that this kind of s- spoiler culture could come from.

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Here's another thing: I don't think I picked up on the fact that a, it was a requisite of a White Lotus season for somebody to die until this season. Like- Mm... first season, oh, somebody died.

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Second season, somebody died. And then by the third season I was like, oh, this is the point of the show, I guess. This is what we're all- Yeah... waiting for. This is the, the central tension.

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'Cause like I'm like you, Paul. Like I would prefer not to see a spoiler, but you're watching it for the artistry- It's where to spend time... and the plot.

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But the plot is the plot whether you find out beforehand or not. Um, so yeah. And- [laughs] Dr. Seuss... whatever. [laughs] And so now that like I'm like this is...

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The whole conceit of White Lotus is somebody un- unexpected dies at the end, I'm like... I don't know. It kind of is like... It's not as like cool to me. I...

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Something I was thinking about this season, because b- by season two I was like, oh, like a murder that they then play it back is- Mm-hmm... going to be the structure for all of, every single ensuing season.

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What I'm wondering is where is the corporate comms team freaking out about all of these murders happening- Mm... on their properties all the time?

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I want a scene in a boardroom where people are really talking about their crisis strategy for this kind of thing, because they seem to don't... They don't really care that much.

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Like, people are still going to these resorts and, you know, still-You know, la-di-da. There's, besides Belinda, there's no real connection that there has been a murder previously- Yeah... at a different location.

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Um, and so yeah, like I, I, I want more communication between the different locations is what I'm saying. [laughs] That's a good point. I...

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Speaking of corporate comms, did you see what happened with Coffee Mate and White Lotus? Oh. No. I, the, the day... I was at the grocery store the day of the finale- Mm-hmm... and I, I took a picture.

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I was like, "Pina colada Coffee Mate," like- Yeah... this is my drink for tonight. So they, like, reached out to...

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Like, when they were like, "Oh, we're doing our Thailand season," they reached out to Coffee Mate and they were like, "You know what'd be so cool?

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If we did a pina colada flavor," but they didn't tell them how it fit into the plot. And so Coffee Mate was like, "Oh, hell yeah, we'll do it," and they put out- [laughs]... like the White Lotus collab pina colada. Wow.

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But they didn't know until the finale that it was, like, um, whatever. [laughs] Poison- Wow... seeds. Mm-hmm.

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That's kind of amazing because my, in my experience, I feel like especially in the last five years, communicating with any kind of comms team is so- Mm-hmm... uh, like their, like the l- What am I trying to say?

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Like, their, like the, what they are asking is so much more involved now- Mm-hmm...

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than it used to be, and so I'm surprised that something as high profile as that they wouldn't ask, [laughs] "What is the pina colada plot line being used for?" [laughs] Right.

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"Is this going to make Coffee Mate- Just a cute little drink... potentially look bad?" [laughs] Yeah. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, yeah.

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I mean, let's hope they didn't have some sort of, like, you can't make us look like Branch Davidians clause in their- Mm-hmm... contract, 'cause you know they're all, like, lawyered up.

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But I think more culture creators should fuck with brands, and Francis knows I have an ongoing list of brands that I would like to fuck with. [laughs] Because you're doing them a favor. Mm-hmm.

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You're like, "It's kind of for your own good- It's more interesting... that I'm fucking with you right now," because that pina colada Coffee Mate is kinda, like, way funnier now. Mm-hmm.

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Um, and maybe it's, like, a 4D chess thing where it's like we're gonna know and we're gonna pretend not to know to draw even more attention to it, but I don't know.

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It wouldn't be, it wouldn't be interesting if it w- if it was anything else, if it was just, like, if it was just like, oh, uh, you know, Greg drank a pina colada at the party and that was just something he drank.

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Like, th- th- there's no story there. There's no reason- No... to post about it. Yeah, and I think if they, if they acknowledge that they were in on the joke, it doesn't become funny anymore. Yeah. It, so...

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But I do think that there is, there is a way that people can play with brands in this kinda winking way that can be really interesting, but yeah, I- I'm curious if you, if you would reveal your list of, of brands that you fuck with, Daisy.

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Um, I can't because I- Fair enough. [laughs]... I might make fucking with them, like, a bigger part of my partnership strategy at Dirt. Um, wait, are Branch Davidians the one that did mass suicide? That's a lot of them.

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All right. Branch Davidians are the ones in Texas, right? Oh. They got in the shootout. Yeah, I think so. Now I'm thinking of the- I think the, the guy, he's kind of handsome... the Nikes and the Kool-Aid. Yeah.

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Who was that? Mm. Nike's and the Kool-Aid? Yeah, Nike's and the Kool-Aid. Well, that's Heaven's Gate maybe. Yeah, Heaven's Gate. Mm. Isn't the Kool-Aid separate, though? The Kool-Aid is pr- [laughs] is Jonestown?

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[laughs] Yeah. Kool-Aid is Jonestown, I think. But the cult wasn't called Jonestown. No, it was Brian Jones Cult. [laughs] It happened in Jonestown.

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[laughs] That's where the phrase "drink the Kool-Aid" comes from, right? Yeah, of course. Yeah. Mm-hmm. Anyhoo. I, brands that I would like to fuck with.

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Yeah, I, I don't wanna reveal them yet in case I do successfully get to fuck with them someday, but I think the problem is they do understand the power of mischief, but a lot...

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And this kinda goes back to the piece that, um, Francis wrote that we published yesterday about brand sillage, is, like, they'll do... They understand the power of mischief, but they'll do, like, derivative mischief. Mm.

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Like, it has to be something somebody else did first. So, like, oh, Liquid Death did, like, a keg of Liquid Death with pregnant ladies in their commercial, so, like, we're gonna do a pregnant lady commercial.

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Or, oh, um, like, the Duolingo owl is threatening to kill people. Like, our mascot should threaten to kill people. It's just, uh, not to bring it back to this- And it's like, well, no... but it's reheating nachos. Yeah.

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Um, I would say, like, that Pop-Tart that was resurrected in the toaster- Mm... you know, that was pretty original. But I, I really feel awful for whoever had to pitch that and get it all the way up the flagpole.

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[laughs] Oh, I would've loved to have been in that pitch meeting. Yeah. I think... Right, I do think that there's going to be a place for, like, kinda goading brands to let you into the room.

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Um, and so I salute the, the White Lotus Coffee Mate mischief. Mm. And the other thing is, like, I mean, mischief, the, the company- A24...

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has obviously made, like, an art form and a business out of this, but I do think... I, I kinda think of them as, like, H24. Gimmicks as a service? Yeah.

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I mean, they've obviously done a ton of original stuff, but they've almost become a weight on, um, the industry because, like, they just are giving people new ideas to be derivative about. Mm. Mm. Um, I don't know.

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I think it's more about who, who has the best gimmick that commands attention for about five seconds, and then- Mm-hmm...

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that becomes diverted into, to your point, like, derivative mischief that other people try and replicate, which always has diminishing returns. Brat. [laughs] Brat, exactly.

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But somehow still going strong, if Coachella is any indication. Mm-hmm. Uh, okay, I was, I wanted to talk... I read, I read your, uh, Barnes & Nobles piece in, in Dirt- Mm...

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and, and I was- It's Barnes & Noble- Barnes & Noble... but I understand why you're saying that because I used to say that... Barnes &... Okay, Barnes & Noble. [laughs] A- anyways, Barnes & Noble.

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Um, but I was thinking about this too in the, in the mall context because, you know, I've got good memories of going to a Barnes & Noble and, like, reading manga for-... hours when I was in sixth grade.

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Um, there was one in the local mall where I was, but now, like, when I go to bookshops, I don't even like to go to The Strand in New York.

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Uh, I just kind of go to the few in my neighborhood that are all also coffee shops, and I only go to [laughs] bookstores now that are also coffee shops.

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Um, but, uh, my, the context I'm interested in this in i- is, like, the, the idea of third spaces and how every other month there's people tweeting about, like, oh, third spaces are dead.

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I specifically saw one yesterday that was like, "Why are there no third spaces for men?" Um, [laughs] which- [laughs] Bold... which is a whole 'nother thing. But, [laughs] um, I don't know.

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I think, I th- I think it's compelling, I guess, that, like, Barnes & Noble has come back like this because I do have positive memories of, of, of going, going to these places when I was a kid. Um, but that's like...

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Are these, are these in malls? These... There's, like, 60 new ones opening I think you mentioned in that piece. Are these standalone? Are they in malls? What's up with this? It's both.

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So s- one of the things I found most fascinating while reporting that piece is that Barnes & Noble,

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you know, several years after they closed locations in specific places, they're reopening sometimes in the exact same place. Hm.

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And that's fascinating because, you know, for instance, like the, the one that I went to out here in Santa Monica, it's...

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So it, I don't know if you've been, but there's an outdoor mall called the 3rd Street Promenade that has a very long history on the West Side of LA.

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It's very close to the Santa Monica Pier and the beach, but it is definitely not as popping now as it used to be for various reasons, right? Uh, rising rents.

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Um, you know, there's a ton of r- there were a ton of retail vacancies at least last year. Hm.

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And one of, one of the big ones that left, I wanna say in 2018, was a very large Barnes & Noble, and they reopened on the 3rd Street Promenade, not in the same location, but, like, half a block down. Within blocks.

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Yeah, yeah, yeah. Within blocks. And I find that so fascinating because, uh, what... Doubling down on something that didn't work in the first place is a very interesting strategy.

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But, so to a certain extent, I think they are opening in malls, but they are doing it in different locations too, and sometimes opening where the Amazon bookstores used to be, which is also interesting.

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But to your point about the cafes, the one that I went to, I, I also have very strong memories of growing up loving Barnes & Noble. That was my favorite place to hang out.

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The one in Houston had a Starbucks in it that had that, like, early 2000s Panera Core vibe. I would always get my, my, uh, Frappuccino.

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I would sit in the magazine rack, and I would just read until, like, my mom came and picked me up, right? And now the new Barnes & Nobles don't have cafes in them. A lot of them don't.

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Like, the one in Santa Monica does not have a cafe inside. It's right next door to a Coffee Bean, so maybe they thought that it would achieve that kind of synchronicity, I guess.

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But if we're talking about third spaces, I, I don't know that it's being fostered in that same way with the exclusion of those coffee shops, even though coffee shops are still massive for- Mm-hmm... people to hang out.

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Like, I went to, I went to Stories here in LA, which is an indie bookstore, uh, in Echo Park that has a cafe inside, and you could not move with how packed it was inside.

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Like, it, it's very much- Like, just on, like, a random afternoon or something. Yeah. It was, it was a Sunday. I, I was the oldest person in there. I'm 33.

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Like, it was all, like, 20-somethings just hanging out, like, you know, picking up different books and drinking coffee. Yeah. So I think there is an appetite for that definitely. Mm-hmm.

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If I was Barnes & Noble and I was gonna come up with a mischief for them, I would add an S to just one location, 'cause everyone thinks it's called Barnes & Nobles, and it's really, like, a strong Mandela effect.

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And then I would put... And then I would take out all the titles that begin with S and be like, "We had to melt them down to do the S." [laughs] And then after everyone was like, "What?" I'd be like, "Just kidding.

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Every book that starts with an S is on sale." Sounds like a Nathan Fielder bit that backfires. I think my problem is, like, I'm not actually good at marketing.

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I'm just good at coming up with ideas that Nathan Fielder would think of- [laughs]... and then be like, "That's not very good."

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[laughs] I, uh, the, the third space thing, one, one thing I also just remembered is, like, when- Yeah, third space is for men. That's just called public space- Third space is [laughs]... and you have had it forever.

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It's just called, uh, it's just called the, the subway when you, when you manspread. Um, anyways, no, but I remember in fifth grade, I was with my friend.

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I was visit- we were visiting his father in, in LA, and we were at a Barnes & Noble, and we'd been there for hours, and the security guard came up to us. He was like, "What are you guys doing?"

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Like, "Oh, you're just reading." And, and he, and he let us be. And I, I've...

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Like, whenever I think of Barnes & Noble, it's that specifically that I think of because I thought that was so sweet and so, like, pro social within the mall. Like, it's almost [laughs] like an idealized mall experience.

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Yeah. I think, I do have- Now I buy a lot of books from, uh, Thrift Books and AbeBooks, though, I should admit. Oh, I mean- Mm... they have great stuff. Um, yeah, whenever I look for an older book, usually there's, like,

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an Abe- Yeah... listing comes up, and a lot of times they're, like- Honest Abe... signed or something cool like that, so. Yeah. I wonder...

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Yeah, I have, I've never done the dive into, like, how does Abe work as a business? Mm-hmm. But they, the selection is impressive.

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I feel like when I'm looking for something that's out of print-Almost always they have something that's available I believe, and I'm not 100% sure, that they might work by cross-listing dealer inventory without having to maintain their own inventory Mm-hmm.

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Um, which is obviously, like, a good way to have less overhead. I got one... I got a book from one of those two sites recently that was from a Goodwill somewhere in the middle of the country. That's cool.

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I feel like I haven't done... I mean, now more- enough people know about it that, like, know how to find good stuff that it's, like, not as good anymore. But I feel like- Mm...

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you used to be able to find stuff in the Goodwill auctions that were, like, if you did, like, a full digital search, like designer stuff in some area where it wasn't, like, identified immediately. Mm.

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I think, yeah, I, I think m- enough people have found out about it now. I've never been able to, like, get something really good from one of those auctions before, or, you know, the stores are- tend to be- Yeah...

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really picked over. I feel like Facebook Marketplace is the place now. Didn't you write a, you wrote, you, you wrote a piece about this? I did. Mm. I did. Not to bring it back to my work. Um, but [laughs] Please do.

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You're the guest here. But Come on. [laughs] But yeah.

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I mean, the, the way that Facebook Marketplace has developed into this, uh, chaotic free-for-all where you can find amazing things is fascinating, and I think they are taking on

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more of a share of maybe w- something that Goodwill used, or even eBay to some extent used to. I mean- Mm... so much of this is local, but- Or, I mean, I associate it as like a replacement Craigslist.

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Replacement Craigslist- Mm... for sure, but they also... Some people ship on Facebook Marketplace too. So you can, you can make it local, or you can make it, you know, you can get something shipped to you.

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Which is a problem I've had with it, where I've tried to use it as Craigslist, but then there's too many, like, drop-shipped...

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Like, f- looking for, like, patio chairs a year or so ago, and there was th- like, it was really hard to find anything good that I could go, like, walk to and pick up. It was so much, like, just drop-shipped stuff. Mm.

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Mm. So it has- I mean-... been infiltrated by professional resellers at this point. Mm-hmm.

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It has, and I think part of why I find, like, weird, good shit on there is because I've spent so much time training the algorithm to show me s- weird shit. Mm. But I've also very diligently...

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Like, there, there are ads that populate, and I, I X out of everything. I don't... I hide the drop-shipped options.

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I only look at local, and the benefit of being in Los Angeles is if it fits into the trunk of my car, I'm gonna drive out and get it. [laughs] So... Mm.

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Speaking of Los Angeles, you just wrote a pretty detailed report for us about Los Angeles Festival of Movies. Yeah. Um, and I was...

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I, in addition to not having gone to a music festival in a while, I'm not sure that I've ever gone to a film festival, which I'm sad to admit.

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But, um, this one sounded really fun, and I like that you, um, said what food was there, because I think that that's really important.

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There was one line in your piece about drinking a latte at the movie theater, which I agree with completely. I think it's... Having...

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Well, you know, some of us have small bladders, but I think having a latte at the movie theater is underrated.

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Um, so I was hoping you could talk a little bit about, like, the role that that festival is playing in the ecosystem right now. Yeah. So I... Yeah, the...

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I was so happy to be able to drink a latte at a movie at 1:00 in the afternoon on Sunday, especially after staying out pretty late the night before after the Friendship premiere, which was a lot of fun too, at LA Festival of Movies.

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Yeah, so I... There was a stretch in my life where I went to Sundance a lot, and Sundance is fascinating for different reasons. But it felt... You know, it's a lot bigger. It's chaotic in some ways,

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and I think that what it's trying to achieve is perhaps different than something like Los Angeles Festival of Movies. And I haven't been to any of the big ones. Like, I haven't been to Toronto.

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I haven't been to True/False. Um, but this one felt

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just really thoughtfully curated to me, not only in terms of the, you know, the food selections that they had from, and drinks from different people that they partnered with, but also the selection of movies.

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It wasn't that big. There were a dozen-ish films. They had some shorts too, and they had some talks. Um, but I think they made a point to have it at venues that were multipurpose spaces.

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So 2220 Arts + Archives, which is where quite a few of the screenings happened, it's... I, like, I've been... The only other time I had been there was for a rave. Like, and so- Mm-hmm...

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and they have, like, a screening room in the back. Um, they have, like, a cool bar area and, like, a pretty open floor, like, in the lobby, so it's definitely a hangout space, bringing it back to the third spaces, right?

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[laughs] Like- Mm-hmm... they had some tables there where people could socialize. And I do think, you know, and, and Los Angeles is, it is a place that's stratified. Like, there's...

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And, and I say this as someone who's fairly extroverted.

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Like, it is hard to interact with people here sometimes just because of the nature of the city, and I think what the festival did such a great job of was really trying to foster those kinds of connections, um, by the kinds of venues that it had, which I think was one of the goals that they had, and I certainly felt it.

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Like, I went to... The first thing that I saw was, uh, Friendship, the new Tim Robinson, Paul Rudd film, which was hilarious. It was great. I had a total blast. But I didn't go with anyone.

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I didn't know if anyone I knew was going to be there, and I ended up closing the place down.

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Like, I-A- and I cannot say that I've done that at another industry type event here, where usually, like, I'll go and, like, I'll have a drink, and, like, maybe I'll talk to a few people, but then, you know, it kind of peters out, and then I go home and, you know, hang out with my dog, whatever.

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But this was... It, it felt very distinct to me in that sense, and I don't know if it was because everyone was kind of giddy after the movie because it's so silly and great, or if it was a, a factor of the space.

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Maybe a little bit of both. But I was very pleasantly surprised by the social aspect of this festival too. That sounds really nice. It was fun. I had a good time. I... Back-to-back cool festivals in Los Angeles.

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Festivals are back, baby. [laughs] I don't remember the last festival I've been to actually. When I went...

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When I lived in New Orleans, there would be a bunch of, uh, weird food festivals, like fried chicken festival, mac and cheese festival, and that would be [laughs]... That, that would be s-...

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We, we went to a couple of those. But then it's, it's just so hot. It'd be like in the summer, and it's so hot there, and you're [laughs] going to different booths eating mac and cheese. Um, fun for a while.

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Francis, speaking of, uh, that, um, did you ever participate in any, um, like state fairs growing up on a farm? Mm, state fairs. No. We did have the county fair. We didn't... We weren't part of that though.

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That was, like, in a different... That's in a different part of the county that's more like the ranchers. Mm-hmm. And we're... You know, my family was more of, like, the neo...

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The, the hippies who came in and grew flowers rather than, you know, the rancher families that had been there for 100-plus years. Um,

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but, uh, more so, like, my, my good memories of that kind of thing is, like, like the, the, the Christmas fair, where there's all these vendors and it's... and it's at the county fairgrounds.

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And, and I'm like a little child running around and running through crowds, um, to, like, go get candied hazelnuts from, from the Swiss family who, who made those a few warehouses down. Um, yeah, that's a good memory.

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That sounds like a really good third space for men. Yeah, that's- [laughs] You know- I was- [laughs] I was about to say, like, that's so wholesome to buy candied hazelnuts from the Swiss family down the way. Yeah.

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Like, I, I want that. That's glorious. You know, yeah. And I, I think that they're long retired now. That was, that was 20-some years ago. Um, third spaces for men, you know, bars. [laughs] Rodeos. Rodeos. Rodeos.

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Paula, did you... Were you involved in any rodeos as a child? I was not. Uh, it was interesting because... So my family, my family emigrated from Colombia to the US- Mm-hmm...

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in the late 1980s, and I was actually born in New York City, 'cause my parents lived there for a spell, um, in the late '80s and early '90s, and we moved around a bit. So I moved to Texas when I was maybe five. So I...

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We, we were not that fully entrenched, and I think because my family had, like, the one foot in, one foot out, there was a degree of skepticism of, like, what is this? [laughs] Um, but now my, my parents have...

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Like, they still live in Houston, and they've, like, fully embraced, like, being Texan, and, like, love living there. And the Houston rodeo is massive. Like, it's- Mm. Like, the small-time rodeos are really fun.

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I've been to some in, you know, small towns like Taylor, Texas, and, like, that is, like, a whole thing. Like, the whole town is out. You got the kids doing the mutton busting.

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Like, there's, you know, elaborate routines with, like- What do you eat?... people on horses and flags. Oh, what don't you eat?

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[laughs] A- anything that you can fry, you, you eat, and you could, you could fry a lot of things it turns out. Um- [laughs]... tacos, funnel cakes, um- Ice cream... ice cream. A pina colada. You...

289
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Yeah, fried pina colada. I'm sure... That actually... I, I think that would actually be really good somehow. Yeah, that sounds like it slaps. That actually- Free idea. Yeah, seriously.

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Brands, any brands listening, if you want... [laughs] My, my new I would say corporate tick is I started calling events activations as a joke, and now I've been saying it unironically. Oh, no.

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So, like, when I partner with somebody I'm like, "You know, I think we could really activate your space," instead of like, "We should throw an event together." And it's becoming a problem. That's...

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Well, that's, that, that's why they pay you. Nobody pays me. That's why- [laughs] I'm just humiliating myself for nothing. I talk myself- Do you speak your life in quarters? [laughs] Oh my God, I did the other day.

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I texted a friend- I've done that... and I was like, I was like, "How's your Q2 going?" Then I was like, "Oh, shit."

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[laughs] See, is this a function though of, like, of, like, you know, the corporatization of modern life, or is it just, like, being in your 30s? You have to kill the Q2 inside of you. [laughs] Maybe a bit of both.

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I mean, I think because... So I- Here we are at the Q2 of our lives. E- oh. No. Oh. Oh, I hate that. Why? New Millennial Non-Fiction Essay Collection just dropped.

296
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[laughs] I was thinking about it more in the sense of I, I never thought about things in that way until... So throughout my life I've been at staff jobs.

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Actually, Daisy and I met over a decade ago at International Business Times. Yeah. What a, what a time that was. I was working Newsweek. Vichy, Vichy Newsweek. [laughs] We got into an episode just about that, Francis.

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It involves the Moonies. It involves- Oh, yeah... uh, SEO farming in Indonesia. Mm. It involves [laughs] it involves... Did you... Do you remember the, uh, the art piece, the art piece that I had in my cubicle?

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Which was every day I would drink a coffee, I would get a lipstick stain on it. Usually they were slightly different colors 'cause I wore different lipsticks.

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I would pin the cup to my cubicle, and there was just like-Trash wall is a really derogatory term for it. [laughs] Um, I would think of it more as the kiss wall. Mm-hmm.

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It was, uh, lines, like asymmetrical lines of these coffee cups with the kiss marks lined up, and just, like, slight variations. I still feel that that was maybe my masterpiece.

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I don't remember this, uh, but that sounds killer. Um- Did you ever cross the stick grid with an Instagram photo? We did sit across... I mean, we were pretty far from each other. Yeah. This was when IBT owned Newsweek.

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Do you, do you remember the click bonuses? Like, that was the most, like, dystopian...

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So they had, they, there was a chart where they would give you bonuses, like, you know, if you would get, like, 100,000 clicks on a story, like, you would make, like, X amount of money, and the base salaries were horrifyingly low, and, like, worse for you guys than Newsweek.

305
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Like, it, it was, it was wild. Like, and the amount that we had to write, my God, I still think about that. Three to five stories per day was our quota. Jesus. It was, it was manic.

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But also, you know, I was 23, and I had just moved to New York, and, like, you know, I could still go out and show up at work, and it would be fine. [laughs] But it was, it was wild.

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You could still write three to five hungover. Chartbeat owns me emo- Yeah... owes me emotional damages- Oh, my God... and all of us. Chartbeat.

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I think, uh, well, our mutual friend, Jack, Zach Schoenfeld, I, I really think that he, like, turned the lights off when he left that place. You know what I mean? I cannot believe- Oh, yeah...

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he stayed at Newsweek as long as he did, and he got to do really cool work because of it. But I kept being like, "When is, when is..." Like, I don't know. I feel [laughs]

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I- When, when Zach leaves, I'm writing it off completely, is basically how I felt.

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I- there was a point where when Zach was still at Newsweek, I would joke to him, and I would say, "Zach, I think it's just you and a laptop at this point." [laughs] Like, I just...

312
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Uh, like, you are the last one standing. Like, somehow you're, like, still putting out, like, really interesting things, but how is this place still...

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Were you there the time that the DA's office raided the- No, I've- [laughs] The Newsweek office... and I regret it every day. Oh, my God. I regret every day that I missed that. It... What a, what a wild place.

314
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Uh, the other weird Newsweek memory that sticks out to me is, do you remember for, like, a week they were trying to film a reality TV show about, like, working in a newsroom, and they ended up killing it 'cause it was so boring- [laughs]...

315
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and everyone was just [laughs] typing on Slack and G Chat, 'cause that's where we all talked. G Chat.

316
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There was, there was one time our managing editor brought a keg to the office, and they were like, "Oh, hell yeah, finally, like, [laughs] some action."

317
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And it was just us standing around like this, holding a single beer, not wanting to look bad in front of our bosses at our first job. [laughs] That's so, that's so funny, dude. It w- I don't remember that. But, um- Yeah.

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It's wild.

319
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[sighs] It's like, I, I've already brought it up too much, but I read Graydon Carter's memoir, and I was like, "No memoir written by a person our age is going to be this interesting," because you would have entire chapters that would just be like that.

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Yeah. There's, there's gotta be, like, one company that was so messy. It's called Dirt Media, Dirt.fyi. [laughs] And on that note, this is Taste Lead. [laughs] This is Taste Lead. Thank you for listening.

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Follow the group on... [laughs] Thank you so much.

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