[upbeat music] Welcome back to Tasteland. I am Francis Zear. And I'm Daisy Alioto. And today we are speaking with Casey Lewis, who was our very first guest on our fourth episode about a year ago.
She's also been a guest on my other podcast, Creator Spotlight. Um, Casey, if you are not somehow familiar with her work, is a youth consumer trends researcher whose newsletter, After School, is very good.
Um, probably the, the, the one and only thing you need to read if you at all are involved in selling things to young people. Yeah, it's fantastic. I like to know what the youth is up to, and I feel like it's...
She's very good at not being condescending to- Mm. Mm, mm... the demographic that reads the newsletter and the demographic that the newsletter is about.
I think she shows, like, a lot of respect for youth culture and the autonomy of, like, young people kind of making their first- Mm-hmm... financial decisions, and I've always... That's always really sat well with me.
Yeah. No, she's, she's very empathetic. It's also just as, as a newsletter product, I always admire kind of the, the brevity. Like, it's, like, four or five links and, like, a paragraph on each. It's very completable.
Yeah. I think that's... That's something that I struggle with sometimes in Creator Spotlight is [laughs] I'm not, I'm not good at making it completable.
Well, but you're very good at doing the sort of, like, Axios style takeaways and breaking up- Yeah... the text with, um, headlines and sub-headlines, which I feel like I, I could do a better job with that.
Like, my default style is long-form magazine article. Yeah. Um- But that's, but that's w- I mean, that's what makes it great too. Well, for sure.
But- Like, I try to, I try to do that for Creator Spotlight because I know we're reaching, we're trying to reach a mass audience that, like, s- a lot of people will have less appetite for a long read.
Not that it's even that long. Like, they're usually, like, 1,000 to 1,500 words, which to me is not long, but I notice some people it's like, "I am not reading all that."
My issue is, and maybe this is specific to me, when there is, when the i- text is broken out with summaries, I tend to skim something that I otherwise might have read all the way through. Yeah. That's why...
Well, I try to like, um, I don't really have the big summaries now.
I used to do that a little more, but I try to, like, with headers and, like, with bolding of certain items and paragraphs, like, I t- I do that to try to, like, encourage people who might not otherwise read it.
Like, at least they'll skim through and read a few of the bolded parts. Um- Yeah... and that's a win. But anyways, um, tell us, tell me about the Greta's new piece that you guys just published.
I haven't read it yet, but I've got it open and it looks good. Yeah. So I'm actually not somebody who knows a ton about Thomas Bernhard. Um- Never read him myself...
for the uninitiated, he's one of Austria's, um, most famous writers. Mm-hmm. He's known for being sort of misanthropic. You could say he's Austria's second-most famous writer. Right. Um- That was to- horrible. I'm sorry.
Wait. N- never mind. [laughs] Yeah, don't linger on that. [laughs] Anywho, um, and she was like, "Yeah, he's having, he's having, like, a renaissance right now." And I was like, "Oh, I believe you."
I always see people tweeting about him- Mm-hmm... or that they're reading him, but because I have never really delved into his work, it didn't really register with me.
So I think this is, like, the perfect blank story because it's the combination of being almost like a social scene report and, um, a, a sort of intellectual- Yeah... uh, trend.
[laughs] Um, and, like, she gets into, you know, his position in the literary culture, um, you know, his most famous books, recent books that have come out w- in, in his style.
So it's a very intelligent piece while still being a little juicy. Mm-hmm. And I made the executive decision to make the cover photo look like a Perfectly Imperfect. I got a good laugh out of that. Um, newsletter.
I just... I lit- If you heard me chuckle about 30 seconds ago, it was 'cause I looked at it again. [laughs] I actually keep laughing at it. I think it's... I was laughing as I was making it.
I think it's the tiny ice cream cone photo- It's cute. Yeah... because it's like,
uh, Perfectly Imperfect, like, a lot of people, I think they're like, "Oh, um, being in Perfectly Imperfect sort of, like, gives you a little bit of, like, a, a micro-celebrity striver thing." Mm-hmm.
So I think people unconsciously try to counterbalance it by using, like, a really chopped photo of themself. Yeah.
So I'm kinda like, "This is what Thomas Bernhard would choose for his Perfectly Imperfect profile to, like, signal he's not taking it that seriously." [laughs] That's good.
This reminds me too of, like, with, I mean, both of... This isn't just these two editorial products, but- Yeah...
I see it a lot with Perfectly Imperfect and with Subway Takes, how, like, you'll get people in the comments saying, "Oh, why don't you... Like, ugh, celebrities again.
Like, why don't you just pick, like, a normal person?" Yeah.
And I think I see that more actually with Subway Takes, whereas on Perfectly Imperfect, maybe it's just 'cause I don't, I probably don't check the comments as much there, but I feel like people are more, the audience of Perfectly Im- the audience of Perfectly Imperfect is more down to have a celebrity in there than the Subway Takes audience who might get more rankled.
Also, when they're saying normal person, they don't even mean normal person. Like, you might not even know a normal person. [laughs] I certainly don't.
Well, I know, um, I don't know if she's a normal person, but Casey Lewis is here, so let's talk to her. Let her in. [upbeat music] It is great to have you.
Did you know that you were our first guest on our fourth episode? Well, I was actually reflecting on this, and I, I thought I was maybe the first guest.
I didn't wanna overinflate it in my brain, the importance, the significance. Pump it up. But I did think I was one of the first ones. [laughs] You were. Yeah.
And I think at the time you had gotten your dog relatively recently, maybe. [laughs] Um, how's your, how's your puppy? Was he being crazy in the background?
Well, I think there was, like, some question of, like, was he going to be crazy, but I do remember him- Okay... being well-behaved. He didn't want the dogs out. Um, yeah.
They, um, I have two, and it's like the second they can tell I'm on a Zoom that I need silence for, they decide that that's the moment they wanna, like, roughhouse. [laughs] This isn't Zoomies.
And then the second the Zoom concludes, they're like, "Fine."It's actually kind of uncanny So do you always have two? What's that? You always had two dogs, or...? So, um, uh, uh, one w- he's ni- one is nine- Okay...
and I've had for eight years, and then the other I've only had in the last, like, well, it's been a year and a half now. Yeah, yeah. Okay. Yeah. Um, and it was... It's been a challenge, but worth it. [sniffs] Yeah.
So speaking of a year and a half, that's also when I... A year and a half ago is when I interviewed you for Creator Spotlight, the- Yes... the other podcast. Yes.
And I was looking back at that, and at that time you had 40,000 subscribers. Yeah. And you have 79,000. Maybe, maybe it's 80,000 by now. Yeah. I could check last night.
Um, so I'd like to congratulate you on doubling that in a year and a half. Thank you. Thank you so much. Mm-hmm.
Actually, it's funny that you say that, Francis, because that was right before we got the second dog, that trip. Oh, okay. Yeah. 'Cause I don't know if you remember, but we were in P- Yes... at a weird Airbnb...
you were like in Florida. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. And that was- [laughs]... we got back, and we were getting ready to move, and we were like, "Why not, uh, foster a dog right now?" Mm-hmm.
And of course, a year and a half, that foster dog is n- now firmly our dog. But, um, but thank you so much.
I, I don't know, i- i- it's, I, I think you guys would agree where, or, or maybe you have more, like, specific metrics in mind for newsletter success, uh, but it's hard for me to know.
Like, I don't really set goals for myself. Just, like, every time I hit a new one I'm like, "Yay, that, like- Yeah... is more than I thought [laughs] I'd ever have."
Um, so I don't know, like, in a year and a half if that's, like, a me- I mean, y- Francis, you in particular, you talk to people- Mm-hmm... who have crazy growth. Um, but I'm excited. That's good growth.
I mean, that's great. You have, like, a niche product too, right? Like, 80,000 people who wanna read about Gen Z trends is, is pretty impressive. Well, thank you.
I do think youth culture is becoming increasingly mass or, like- Mm-hmm... mainstream as an interest. This is...
Well, you know, um, I forget, I think, I think Emily Sundberg wrote a piece about this, or maybe it was you, somebody a couple months ago, of, like, the people on Instagram t- commenting, like, "Oh, the market," like, "The marketing girlies really did their thing," or, like, "Marketing," like, "Come on."
Yes. Which I feel like to me, I, I've, I've been saying a lot recently to people that, like, the new learn to code is learn- Yeah... to do marketing. Oh.
And, like, that's the core feature of the creator economy is it's all marketing. To be a creator is to produce content and market it.
And if you are good at, like, getting a bunch of views or you get a, a, a bunch of engagement, that just means you're good at this specific type of marketing.
And so maybe, like, I, I, I'm, you know, just putting some things together here, but maybe, like, increased interest in youth trends is because everybody on the internet, if you are an avid internet user you are essentially some level of marketer, even if you don't necessarily think of- Yeah...
yourself as such. But, like, you have to understand marketing to understand any social media platform. Yeah. Emily wrote that piece. I loved it. And actually what you just said made me think of something.
I hadn't drawn the, drawn the... I hadn't put these two together, but, um, I have been interviewing a bunch of Gen Alphas for a- Yes... forthcoming report. Mm-hmm.
And one of them said that they believe that Gen Alpha will be the richest generation of all time because they're so good at marketing themselves. And this- Mm...
I'm not, I'm not exaggerating when I say this was, like, an 11-year-old who said this. Oh. So, like, a kid having that much of an under- I, I didn't even bring it...
I, I, I didn't make the connection that it's all because of the creator economy. Yeah. Like, that's how they are so aware of marketing as a concept. Like, MrBeast is nothing if not a master marketer. Exactly.
So these kids are growing up. W- w- are they going to see an uptick in business school marketing majors [laughs] because of this, like, interest? Well, then it's like, do you...
I mean, it, when every Gen Alpha is too good at marketing, like, then it, I mean, is it kind of like the learn to code thing where then it, it comes back to someone else, and it's like, it's...
I mean, obviously then it becomes a luxury to not have to market yourself. It already is, but- Yeah. Wow. I guess we'll only know. I know time will tell. Mm-hmm.
Kasey, just to go back to, um, the growth over the last year and a half, um, are there particular moments of inflection where- Mm... you saw an influx of people?
Like, doing work with other people who are joining Substack, like American Eagle, did that ultimately, like, drive people to your platform as well? Hmm, that's a great question.
I, in the four and a half-ish years that I've been doing the newsletter, there have been moments, but not really when you would think. Like- Hmm...
early on, my first big bump was when the Of a Kind girls, Claire and Erica, now they do EightThreeOne, they plugged me in their newsletter. And I don't know, they must have sent, like, 1,000 subscribers.
Like, I, I knew they were influential and amazing, but I didn't quite realize how much power they had. [laughs] Yeah. Um, and so it, it's always those, like, less expected moments.
I think American Eagle was good in that, um, Craig Brommers, the CMO, mentioned me in a couple of press interviews. So then I would see, like, an uptick from a lot of, like, marketing and ad people.
But I would say a lot of marketing and ad people who would re- read my name in Adweek or Ad Age, and I mean this in, like, not in a, like, conceited way, but, like, most of them already were reading the newsletter just because- Mm...
it's, like, one of the few sort of, like, youth. So I, I don't know. Yeah. I, I, I actually should go back and see if there was an uptick there.
I, I will say historically the biggest moments for growth have been the Christmas hauls. So when I watch, like- Hmm... 1,000, uh, back to school Christmas hauls of teens, you know, "I got this, I got this."
Um, and then, uh, similarly back, back to school hauls. And so- That's just happened... here's what... Yeah, just happened. Mm. Um, and I also doubled down on back to school this year, where I did...
Um, I noticed that m- so many girls were sharing their first day outfits. Oh. And so I watched a bunch of, like, first day OOTDs- [laughs]... uh, to see, like, what are people actually wearing?
[laughs] Well, tell us all about that. [laughs] Um, do you wanna hear first what they wore for the first day or what they were buying for back to school?Was there an overlap? Like was there something- Yeah, def-...
that showed up in the big buys that a lot of people were like, "This is my first day," thing? Yeah, definitely an overlap.
So the, the most interesting thing probably for both pieces was how much it is about denim this year. And in the- Mm-hmm... years I've been writing this newsletter, you know, coming out of COVID, it was all...
Girls were wearing the baggy sweats. Well, first it was the leggings, and then it turned into the flare leggings, and then it was the baggy sweats.
And then last year people started to dabble in denim, but it was still sort of like a baggy cargo. And I think it was just people getting... You know, it, it was an evolution- Perfect, perfect timing- As a-...
to do, for example, a Gap partnership based on denim. [laughs] Exactly, exactly. [laughs] But, you know, I, I will say, I, I started chatting with Gap like before I knew that it was gonna be like such a big denim moment.
And obviously, like if you go back to like teen magazines, like denim is always a huge thing for back to school. You know, they're always like pushing that.
Uh, but I think COVID really, it hurt the denim category- Mm-hmm... because we weren't used to wearing, quote, unquote, "hard pants" even as adults. But in many cases, these tweens, like they'd never worn hard pants.
Yeah. So it was like discovering denim for the first time. But girls were buying like- So interesting... six like piles of denim.
Um, the vast majority being like low-rise baggy, which is, you know, less of a far bridge from the baggy sweats than- Mm. Mm-hmm... like a skinny or a flare.
Uh, but you would see like some of the low-rise flares that, you know, the very Y2K. Um, and then- I didn't... I s- Y2- Oh, go ahead. Oh, go ahead. No. This is, this is just a self-serving anecdote.
I, I don't think I wore denim until eighth grade, and I couldn't, I could not stand it. I could not- Yeah... put it on my body. Sensually denim isn't great.
[laughs] And then you sort of get used to it, I think, at a certain point. But I... You know, especially with kids, like there's a reason why six-year-olds aren't necessarily wearing denim to school every day.
Um, and then for tops, the, the most viral back to school top, Y2K adjacent, was this Hollister baby doll top, which- Mm-hmm... Daisy, you probably recall this being the, the first iteration- Oh... of this.
[laughs] I had- I think you're a little younger than me... some version of it. Yeah. Yeah. Um, and you know, it's all like mashed together in my mind. Like I'm trying to picture it in my mind.
I know I didn't have an Abercrombie one. I'm like, "Did I have a Hollister or American Eagle? Was it an eagle on it or a seagull?" Like... [laughs] Yeah. Um, but you know, Hollister, and a lot of these companies had...
They have done like, um, sort of throwback reissue collaborations- Mm... or campaigns this year. And so there were a bunch of memes around this specific Hollister baby doll top.
Uh, and then it was in fact one of the most, uh, worn first day of school tops. Is this the knit one? Is it knit? Like acrylic- So-... ribbed knit? I can... Not really. Okay. It's, it's...
There's a couple of iterations of it, because- Yeah... one thing that Hollister does is when they release something that's pop- You, you have to pay attention to, to their like distribution and how they...
Like once they release something that seems popular, they then like introduce all these small variations on it. Mm-hmm. So it's like, it's really fascinating, because I think when we were younger, they're just...
They didn't have the infrastructure to act. I mean, did anyone? [laughs] Like it's like- The website wasn't a thing as such... I, I think... It's the Shein model, right? Yeah.
Where it's like this thing is popular, therefore we're going to introduce it in a bunch of different colorways. But the Hollister baby doll top was specifically, um, mostly in, um, maroon. Yep.
A maroon colorway or a navy colorway, and polka dots, and like the satin, um, the satin little band right under the bust. And it did come in like florals and stuff like that too.
But the polka dots were like far and away the most popular. So interesting. I also didn't wear a lot of jeans until high school, but I went to a charter school growing up that was like the dress code was no jeans.
Listener, she's wearing a denim jacket right now, but- Well, I'm gonna get into that. [laughs] So then I got to high school, and I was like, "Jeans" But I, I've never been a big pants girl. Like- Yeah...
I don't know why. I don't get super excited by jeans. But coincidentally, last weekend I bought jeans for the first time in, honestly, I think years.
Like I went to Old Navy, and I was like, I have been sort of coasting off of the fact that I save my jeans forever.
So I have some like vintage boot cut, straight leg J.Crew from straight leg era that go into the tall boots. Um, and then some like Free People flares that I bought in maybe like 2015.
But I was like, "I'm missing some of these like wide straight styles." Mm-hmm. "So let me go to Old Navy and just get like what are the trendier cuts." And I'm an adult, like I could literally buy any jeans that I want.
Like I could have bought four pairs if I wanted to, and I walked in and I was kinda like- Okay, stop flexing. [laughs] Okay. [laughs] No, like we're adults, right? Like I think- Yeah...
part of the back to school excitement when you're younger is there's this like imposed austerity, right? Mm. Yeah. Or there used to be. Yeah. Like, it's like what will my mom let me buy? Yeah.
And so you're in this like weird, Casey, like maybe more so between mothers and daughters, you're in this weird like negotiation with them where if you try something on and your mom really likes it, and then it's like, "Oh, I'm gonna get this in multiple colors."
And so you're like trying to like get them to buy into the stuff that you want.
So I don't do a lot of shopping, because, um, like because I, I have a startup, like I'm kind of on like defacto no-buy for myself, um, in general.
Um, and so it was weird to like go shopping for the first time, be like, "I'm gonna shop. I'm gonna buy whatever I want," and then just be like, "I don't know, I guess like one pair."
But then I did buy this jean jacket as well, which is like kind of more of the like... Um, it's almost cut like a bomber jacket, but it buttons up the front. Cool.
And I know this is kind of trendy, 'cause I've seen girls on TikTok wearing this kind of style of denim jacket. Um, but it was interesting to me. And then I was like, "You know what?
I might just not be a person who's excited by-Denim and, like, that's okay. Mm-hmm. I, I've been hearing good things about Old Navy's jeans for fall. I've not tried them yet. But I, I'm curious what made you...
W- why Old Navy? Like, what was that... It just seems easy. Uh, it's near my house. [laughs] It's near my house. Like, I, I don't know. Uh- Desire path. Yeah. It really was kind of a desire path situation.
If it hadn't been Old Navy, um, yeah, maybe Gap. Um, I think... I don't know. Okay, what was- Yeah, probably, probably Gap. You gotta start somewhere. Yeah.
Something I wanna bring back around to, um, back to the back to school hauls, um, the people...
So besides, like, the, the trends, the clothes, et cetera, like, are these people where now, like, you've seen some of these kids, like, over a couple different years of posting their hauls, like, who are these people that, that, that you're sourcing this information from?
Yeah. I w- I would say that does happen. Like, this year I saw a couple of girls, and I thought, "Man, they look so familiar." And then I'd look back, and they'd have viral hauls from previous years. But what...
The, the most interesting thing about people who share hauls, specifically back to school, Christmas, these big events, it's not people who are necessarily...
who, who would self-identify as creators or even as aspiring creators. Mm-hmm.
And a lot of girls would give, you know, little, you know, a, a note at the beginning that's like, "If any of my classmates come across this, know that I'm not trying to be an influencer. I just-" Mm...
"like watching hauls. And if you, i- you know, if you see this, then know you didn't," kind of thing. Wow. And which is, is so interesting.
Like, as someone who created content as a teen and didn't tell my, my classmates, and then was, like, mortified when they found, like, my blog, um, I related to this [laughs] in a visceral way.
Um, but I do think, you know, there is this interesting push-pull with TikTok in particular, a feeling that you could go vi- you could go viral overnight and change your life, but also this sort of, like, embarrassing moment before it happens- Mm...
where you're just creating content. Um, but I do think- You're just a striver. [laughs] Yeah. Exactly. But I think hauls get a pass because they are such a sort of thing. Um- Mm-hmm. Yeah.
But I, I would say, you know, it, it's a lot of just kids who wanna share the, the cool stuff that they got. Yeah. I have a question for you.
This is more of a meta com- question about youth culture right now, and it's something that I think about as somebody who has a media company that's a little bit more, um, uh, purposely a little bit on the fringe of culture.
But, um, I think last time we talked, we were talking about, like, this aspiration to normality, where if you look at the things that are...
People are buying, it's like they wanna signal that they are part of the mainstream. Um, and youth culture has gone through periods, though, where, like, signaling that you're not part of the mainstream
might be the dominant posture towards shopping or finding things, where it's like, I want something that nobody else has, not I want something because everyone has it.
And I was talking to, um, Sebastian, who runs this, um, book imprint called Isolari, which is like those tiny... Have you seen them? They're, like, tiny pocket-sized books by- No... different authors.
I think you would recognize it if you saw it. But, um- Okay... we were talking about, um...
He's in Europe, and he was talking about the re-nationalization of youth culture, where youth culture is retreating from the internet and becoming more, uh, embracing the sort of subcultures of geographical pockets in a way that wasn't really the case when youth were, like, really optimistic about being online, like in our generation.
Um, and so I was curious, like, it seems like youth culture right now is, like, pretty legible because people are, like, externalizing, like, this is what I bought, like, these are my hauls.
And people are willing to go out and just buy exactly what somebody else has. But I wonder if you think the pendulum might swing back to being, like, a little bit illegible, where- Mm...
it's like youth culture is harder to discern because, um, you know, people are retreating from the internet or being purposely sort of, like, fringe, confusing, edgy, not easier for an advertiser to just, like, easily capture.
Uh, so my, my thought on this is that the, the Gen Z-ers who are, you know, uh, maybe seniors in college or graduating, and they're experimenting with style in a little bit...
in, in ways that you aren't when you're a te- I, I think being a teenager, whether we're talking Gen Z, Gen Alpha, and, uh, uh, you know, the younger, elder Gen Alphas- So it's, like, maybe 14?... or even us- Right?
Yeah. I think, I think maybe the oldest are turning 15 now. Okay. So we're talking, you know, freshmen in high school. Mm. But I, I think about even us as, as teens.
And I'm from a small town in Missouri, and there was very little individuality, and, uh, the, the kids wanted to keep it that way, right? Mm-hmm. Like, they looked down upon any [laughs] sort of individuality whatsoever.
And I was obsessed with fashion magazines, and I would go to thrift stores and, like, find things that I felt like a Chusar Rubinstein from Cosmo girl would wear, you know, like kitten heels.
And then I, I, I can't remember if I've told you guys this before, but I... Like, if I wore them to school, then people would be like, "Why are you dressed up?" Mm-hmm.
And you'd feel like an idiot and, and, like, you were trying to be different, and, "Oh, I'm not gonna do that again." I, I think many of those, uh, you know, feelings or pressures still exist in,
in high schools, and now it's perhaps even worse because there's such a sameness because of TikTok.
So, um, y- talking to my mom, who teaches in rural Missouri still, like, so many of the same trends are happening there as, you know, I see on teens in Brooklyn. Mm.
Now, I do think, like, some schools in Brooklyn have more individuality, and not just Brooklyn, but, like, [laughs] other places too. You know, it's... Rural Missouri is, like, one very specific example.
But I do think, Daisy, to your point, like, once you get either to college or out of college, you feel like you can try on different identities in a way that it won't ruin your-...
social standing at your small high school. Especially like in freshman year of college where everybody's kind of getting their footing and like figuring out who each other is. Totally.
Although, you know, I, I went to University of Missouri, and I felt like many of the same pressures that I did in high school because it is, has such a big, you know, Greek life. Mm.
And it, like very much a pressure to conform.
And I- if you've watched any rush talk TikToks [laughs] I think that there, you know, you see it there too where it's like they want to have the cutest dress from a specific brand, but it needs to be the right brand.
So it's like there is a search of like, "I wanna find the coolest version of X, but it needs to be within these, you know, very specific, you know, uh, uh, uh-" Mm-hmm. "... I, I need to stay within this box." Yeah.
"But within this box I can like flex my, you know, it can be pink instead of green."
I feel like my equivalent of that at, at, you know, a small liberal arts college in Portland, Oregon, was like everyone got Doc Martens.
And then I, of course, was like, "Well, I'm never, ever gonna wear a pair of Doc Martens." [laughs] "Like, I'm gonna rebel against this. Like, this is..." Or Blun- Blundstones were the other ones, but really Doc Martens.
Freshman year of college in Portland, Oregon, everyone bought Doc Martens. Were they the boots or the shoes? And were they black or brown?
There, there was variability, but probably the average one was the, was a black boot. Okay. Yeah. Of course, you know, I remember also going to like the Vince Staples show put on by Doc Martens in downtown Portland.
[laughs] So it's like the Doc Martens industrial complex- So [laughs]... uh, runs deep there. And have you still not worn Doc Martens to this day? I never will. I never will. That's so funny.
Maybe Solovair, which is like the, like, the, that's the factory that used to make Doc Martens- Mm... and they're basically dupes, but like they look a little bit... They don't have the yellow. Um, yeah.
That was my rebel [laughs] that was my rebellion. It's funny, these things that leave like pr- you know, imprints on us. Mm-hmm.
I'm not trying to make it that deep, but I also think from my perspective, there's something about conservatism that discourages individuality. Mm.
And I wonder if there's something in the country taking a more conservative turn at the leadership level that somehow trickles down into people's perspective towards standing out. Specifically like teenagers' style.
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yeah.
Well, I wonder, actually, Casey, like over the years you've been cataloging these back to school hauls and stuff, uh, were there any departures this year from a, from a previous year or something like that?
Like, on the meta level over the past four or five years, have there been like major changes? Wait, and to ride along on that, do you see any recessionary indicators- Mm... in what people are buying? So, no.
[laughs] Definitely not. Interesting. Okay.
I expected, I expected to see in the hauls like some acknowledgement of what is happening, even like just knowing that few teens had jobs this year, you know, it was very hard for summer jobs, and knowing what their parents must be dealing with.
Like, I ex- expected to see some sort of like, you know... I did not. I did not see- Mm... any of that at all. And if anything, I was surprised by how much labels seemed to matter. Mm.
Um, because there is this idea that Gen Z, and teens specifically, are, you know, so dupe curious, and like, you know, who needs a Lululemon, uh,
backpack when you could get a backpack that looks just like it from Amazon for a fraction of the price? But like it very much matters to have these very specific items.
And so the- Otherwise you're gonna go to school, kids are gonna make fun of you, and you're gonna cry because you didn't have Lululemon. Seriously. Ex- I mean, exactly. Yeah.
But like I kind of had this, I, I, I was totally, uh, you know, this was a wrong sort of guess of how- Mm...
things were going with the, you know, the rise of dupes, but I had this idea that like there was maybe respect around like, "Oh, you don't have the Stanley," I mean, Stanleys are out now, but- [laughs]...
you don't have the Stanley, but you have the, you know, it's Stanley dupe from TJ Maxx, and like in fact that's a flex because you have the same thing except you didn't spend all this money on it, but you were able to like source it.
But that's not the case at all. [laughs] It's like... And I had a couple, in my conversations with tweens for this report, I had a couple of kids like sort of explain the nuances of dupes- Mm...
where it kind of seems like, you know, if you can find a bronzer dupe that looks the same, but it's not as visible of a dupe as if you're wearing fake Lulu leggings or, you know, something like that. Mm.
Is there like- Um, yeah... this, I know the like Le Bou Bou bag charms, um, the Purell that's basically a keychain, the
water bottle charms, like I've kind of wondered if that's sort of like a lipstick indicator thing where it's like, well, it's cheaper to buy a bag charm for your existing Coach bag than a new Coach bag.
Like, is that sort of like the consumer trend for accessorizing something that already exists? Like, is that continuing, and are there more extreme examples of this happening?
So it didn't come up much in the back to school hauls. I- Mm... it, it was mostly people walking through their bigger purchases- Mm...
backpacks included, and I, I was actually surprised how few bag charms came up when people were talking about their backpacks. The Touchland hand sanitizer I think is what you're talking about.
It, it was mentioned a bunch. It's the like, you know, the like it girl- Yeah... hand sanitizer. [laughs] Um, as absurd as, as that, uh, as those words together are.
Uh, but I, in the last couple of weeks, a bunch of girls have been going viral for sharing their, um, how to build your dream keychain, which involves a Lululemon keychain that has like a little pouch on it.
And then girls are like adding all kinds of charms to those, which I definitely think is like, you know, it's, it's the whole like trinket core thing where it's like- Mm-hmm... Le Bou Bous on Hermes bags.
[laughs] Um, and I think that people are just like trying to figure out how to express themselves in ways big and small, and it feels good to buy something cute and tiny that won't, you know, break the bank or take all of your allowance.
I don't, kids don't really- Mm...
get allowances these days for the most part, but, um, you know what I mean.I honestly think if I had asked for a new backpack every school year growing up, my mom would've been like, "What is wrong with you?"
[laughs] Like, what... There is a core fundamental, uh, understanding in our family that if your L.L.Bean backpack broke, you could take it back to L.L.Bean and they would give you a new one.
And for that reason, like- [laughs]... not only were you not getting a new backpack every year- That's so New England... unless you really needed one.
[laughs] Like, well, L.L.Bean kinda had to phase that out 'cause people were abusing it. [laughs] Mm. They were bringing in, like, 30-year-old pants.
Um, you know, which fair play, but, um, you know, if the zipper on your L.L.Bean backpack broke and it'd only been, like, a couple years, you know, go get a new version from L.L.Bean.
Um, it's funny to me- Yeah, or replace the zipper. Totally. And, like- Nobody does that. Nobody replaces anything. That's... [laughs] I can't remember if I've ranted on this podcast before.
I feel like Francis is probably tracking my, like- [laughs]... not even slow, like- There's, like, okay-... fast... I know what you're gonna s- there's, like, two things you're gonna say.
[laughs] I have been rapid cycling back into being a traditional, like, prep WASP [laughs] because I'm so offended by the crassness of consumerism.
And I don't mean, like, sweet teenage girls showing off what they bought. I mean, like- Yeah... not sweet 40-year-olds showing off what they bought.
[laughs] Um, and then, like, telling women to just stay home and be a housewife. Um, but there is, like, one thing with this. Like what? Well, what's a...
Give me, give us examples of what these 40-year-olds are buying, these, um, mysterious 40-year-olds. Like, everything. I don't know. Um, I- Cars... I'm kind of forgetting- Like, Boobies...
what my original point was, though. Are they, are they becoming wasps? L.L.Bean backpack, wasps. I don't know, just, like, general thriftiness was, was more of a thing. Um, I don't know.
And now, Daisy, are you saying that you're seeing, like, overconsumption among bo- like, a- among 40-year-olds a- as well as teens? Is that what you're saying? I think everyone overconsumes. Yeah. Yeah.
I mean, the, the Stanley tumbler thing was, you know, so much attached to teens, at least as far as headlines go, but it started [laughs] with, it's women. Like- Yeah... it started with moms. Yeah.
And I do think, um, you know, I don't wanna come for moms, but I do think moms tend to consume a lot, uh, uh, because they are bullied by their tweens to buy certain things.
And also, Daisy, what you said about, you know- Mm...
when you're going back to school shopping and, you know, you kind of have to sell your mom on some of these items in order to get them excited, and maybe you can get it in two washes instead of one, uh, that really spoke to me.
Because when... I, I distinctly remember going back to school shopping, uh, I'm not just saying this because of the very small Gap partnership I had [laughs] around the Long and Lean's.
[laughs] But I was obsessed with Long and Lean jeans- Mm... and I sold my mom on them, too. And so we went home with, like, four pairs between us because I was able to successfully sell her on this trend.
She looked great in them. It's not like she was, like, you know, the mean girl's mom trying to, like, look cool. But I, you know, I...
What you said, like, speaks to something that I hadn't thought about a lot, where it's like there... The relationship between mother and daughter shopping and buying, like, a lot of negotiation [laughs] goes into it.
Mm-hmm. Yeah. I think I actually remembered what I was gonna say. It was about, like, two specific brands that were in my household growing up, as ma- uh, as somebody who had a mom who didn't do a lot of shopping.
Um, Vera Bradley and, um, you know, the L.L.Bean boat tote. And two things about those is, like, yes, they would introduce new patterns and new versions every year, but, like, whether to buy that was, was not, like...
It wasn't a given that you would then buy that. These were things that you were supposed to keep forever. And so, like, I just don't think you're supposed to have, like, five L.L.Bean boat totes. Like, I have- Mm...
the one that I inherited from my grandmother, and I have the one that I would put my Bible in at summer camp. [laughs] Um, and it's been funny- Ugh...
to watch, like, the rugby shirt come into fashion, too, because the one that I wear was my high school field hockey team's rugby shirt, and it still has my last name on the back, and it's starting to peel off.
[laughs] And I was talking to somebody about this the other day, and I've been thinking about writing it a little bit. Like, Instagram, like, early Instagram was 100%, like, people doing...
like, showing off their fashion, right? But a lot of the photos that were, like, influencer styling photos on Instagram and Tumblr, they would show, like, one part of the outfit.
So somebody would take a picture from, like, up here. Um, you guys can't see me gesturing, but, you know, like, the top-down shoe shot- Yeah...
is a very millennial thing, um- Well, this is because the photo quality was so much worse, too, right? I think so, yeah. That's an interesting theory. And it, and, and it was square. You couldn't do- True...
non-square photos. When... I don't even know when they allowed you to do non-square photos. It was, like, 2017. Or, like, if you were holding a beverage, you could see, like, the bracelet somebody was wearing.
But now, like, on TikTok, like, you always show the whole outfit. Because if you don't show the whole outfit, people will just be like, "Well, what else are you wearing with those shoes?"
Like, if you don't list it out, you're gatekeeping. And for that reason, it's like everyone... It's not the quality of the photos. It's like everyone is over-styled because you see everything all at once.
You don't fill in any of the vision. Um, uh, like, a lot of times there's not really a sense of, like, context of the environment that this will be worn in, and the clothes don't look worn.
And so I'll see somebody, and it'll be, like, a beautiful girl, and she'll be wearing, like, a Yankees, like, letterman baseball jacket or something when that was, like, popular or something like that, and it's like,
why would you have that? Like, there's kind of no alibi for, like, why people have what they have other than it's on trend, and it all looks good. But I'm kinda like, there's... It's become uncanny valley. Mm-hmm.
Um, and there was already so much uncanny valley happening, but now to me, it's that everyone's wardrobe looks like a rental.Yeah. And, and often is, well, because of- Yeah... places like Nuuly.
But I, I think you're totally right, and, and what I think about too, Daisy, when you see girls like that where, you know, you're wearing, like, the on-trend Yankee jacket in the photo, and you get the Instagram, and you get the TikTok of it, then you're literally never wearing it again.
And I, I know this is not new. Like, we all know this is the way it works, but it's so depressing. I think there's something about it that is new, though, and I'm having trouble putting my finger on it.
Maybe you and I could, like, text after this. [laughs] 'Cause, like, like, something about...
Like, there's fast fashion into the ability to rent fast fashion obviously accelerated it, but, like, when we were growing up, you wouldn't buy a new outfit for a special occasion unless maybe it was, like, your birthday.
And now I feel like there's way bigger culture around, like, a new outfit, like completely new top-to-bottom outfit, for an event. Mm.
Um, and I do think that changes people's relationship to their clothes because renting is actually really thrifty and sustainable, and I support it a lot.
It's the, like, losing the sort of patina of, like, the off-duty model Olsen Twins walking around with their Starbucks, like, hole in your sweater, crease in your shoes. Mm. Like, something gets lost there. Yeah. Yeah.
I totally agree. One thing I- And I don't even think it's coming from celebrities anymore, 'cause celebrities do re-wear their clothes. We know from the paparazzi. [laughs] On a, on a similar- Yeah...
thread here, going back to what you were saying about your friend who runs Isolari and, like, the re-fragmentation of, of, of youth culture- Mm... can you say more on that? Like, was that a discussion you... Yeah.
Yeah, so the example he gave me was, um, eco grunge in Italy, and I was like, "Say more." Yeah. Like, "I wanna know everything- [laughs]... about this."
And we didn't get into it too much because, um, he's like me, and his mind is just like, "Ah." We were like, "I wanna do this and this and this," one of those conversations. Mm.
But, um, I was like, "I, I assume you're telling the truth because, um, I haven't seen anything about this [laughs] online, and so if you say, like, Italian youth are doing, like, pockets of eco grunge, like, I believe you."
Um, and I think, like... Whoa, sorry. I, now I don't wanna get political again, but, like, there's something about youth culture and protest culture that go hand-in-hand, right? Yeah.
And so if you have pockets in Europe or even the United States where, like, those two things are more correlated, I think it changes, like, people's relationship to fashion by, like, their values.
Like, I assume if somebody says eco grunge in Italy- Because it's an integrity in rejection.
Well, I assume, like, if you say eco grunge in Italy, I assume this is, like, a young person involved in, like, uh, environmental protests. Mm-hmm. And what are the, like, fashion signifiers that go along with that?
Um, but if somebody's, like, reference for fashion is
t- the ability to externalize it online and meet, like, like-minded fashionistas on TikTok that they're basically, like, using like their Teen Vogue, that person's gonna look a lot different.
Like, you know, Casey, I also read magazines growing up, and, like, I feel like I found your work through your ability to, like, historicize Teen Vogue.
Like, that was the first time I kinda became aware of you and your thinking. Mm-hmm. And, like, we didn't really have a way to talk to other Teen Vogue readers.
The, the perspective of other readers was kind of being, like, um, channeled through each issue and, like, to us. Um- Yeah... and so that, like, community of Teen Vogue readers was, like, a, a community
at remove almost talking to each other through the magazine or assuming they were talking to each other through the magazine. Um- Yeah...
and that's very different from the peer-to-peer exchange intermediated by an algorithm. And so if more of- Yeah...
these, like, renationalization of youth culture is trends that arise in, like, people in the same place doing things together geographically, whether it's, like, protesting or just doing, like, Dungeons & Dragons, like, that's really cool, and it might, like, not be externalized on the internet for, like, a long time or ever.
Yeah. Yeah. I ha- I hadn't thought about Teen Vogue in that, in, or any magazine in that way and how th- there was a lack of community because there were just no spaces that we could exist in.
The mailbag page on [laughs] in every magazine. Or where they would be like- Yeah... "This is a real girl. Like, you wrote for us." Like, those were nepo babies. Or, like, Gia Tolentino.
[laughs] Like, when I found out Gia Tolentino was, like, one of, like, the real girl girls, I was like, "What?" [laughs] Like, I'm sorry, a disproportionate amount of those people are now famous. [laughs] I...
It is actually crazy, e- especially the, like, the Vogue, Teen Vogue era. Yeah. You know, those early da- you know, Lena Dunham. Like, that- Yeah. Mm-hmm... first time I ever saw her face was in a Teen Vogue.
Um, but yeah, I, I- But we believed that they were real girls, and that's, the belief is, like, what mattered. [laughs] Yeah. Yeah, we did. I mean, they were real people. [laughs] They are real people. They're real.
[laughs] I'm a Lena Dunham truther. I don't think that she exists. [laughs] I d- I...
So the real thing, I just saw someone, a, a TikTok went viral where a girl was like, you know, in this o- Ozempic era, like, "I'm so sick of no longer seeing real bodies anywhere."
And then there were all [laughs] these comments that were like, "Thin bodies are real bodies, too." Thin bodies are real. [laughs] Thin bodies are real. Um, I saw this TikTok last night that was like...
First of all, I, I don't watch a lot of TikTok right now. I am, though, because I got locked out of my Netflix because we share with my husband's parents, and we haven't, like...
They implemented the, like, one Wi-Fi network. Oh. Yeah. So I was watching Gilmore Girls as my, like, brainless wind-down show, and then I got locked out of Netflix, and so I've been watching TikTok, which is not good.
I went to my husband. I was like, "You have to fix this." [laughs] You gotta sort this. So I stopped watching TikToks [laughs] last night. My sanity.
Um, this girl was like, "I'm going to Kellogg Diner from the show Girls." I was like, "You- Oh my God... have got to be kidding me." [laughs] "You gotta be kidding me."
[laughs] Um, and then so I'm like, I'm, like, sliding through. I'm like, "That's so victimless crime." Then I get to, like, the fourth slide, and I was like, "Is that my ex-boyfriend?"
And I literally, like, screenshotted it and was like, "We'll address this later."
So not only did I see a TikTok of a girl saying she was going to Kellogg Diner, um-From the show Girls, there was also, like, a man in the far background that I was like, "Is that my ex-boyfriend?"
[laughs] And I think that really, um, I think that really captures the experience of being on TikTok in New York. Yes. I- Also, I thought you meant she was on a date with him, so I'm glad- [laughs]...
that's not the case. He was just in the background. Uh, I don't think so. No, I don't... No, I don't think she was on a date. But actually, I don't know. Um- So I'm not, I'm not much of a TikTok- I won't investigate it.
I might just remember it, like, seven days from now and send a photo to my best friend. Delete, delete the screenshot from your phone. [laughs] I'm not, I'm not, I'm not really on TikTok.
Um, I've, I successfully stopped using TikTok about four years ago. Um, big reels addict- He's four years clean... me. [laughs] Uh, four years clean. No, it's probably three years, maybe two. But big reels.
But you replaced it with reels- I did... which I don't think really- It does not count. At the beginning- Yeah... I, it was way better because reels wasn't as good and it wasn't as addictive.
And now, you know, I probably scroll a couple hours [laughs] of reels a day. Um, but I bring this all up to say, um, I- Wait, so you're watching reels like I watch TikTok. Yeah. So you're not clean and sober.
No, I'm not. Yeah, that's- That's being like, "Oh, I'm addicted, I'm not addicted to fentanyl anymore. I'm on, uh"- This is like... No, this is like in college when I- "... what's the thing?"...
when I was like, "I'm gonna stop smoking weed"- What's the new one?... and I just started smoking more cigarettes. Uh. [laughs] Anyways, uh, t- um, the TikTok sale thing.
I've read a little bit about this, but I have a feeling that both of you may be more informed on, on this than me. Um, what is going on here? Basically- Oh, TikTok shop? Will they, will they, won't they? No, no, no.
They're, they're- Oh, the sale, the sale... like, to the, the Ellison, the Oracle, a16z, all this. What's going on? Is this actually happening? Yeah, probably. Like, if the government wants it to happen, it'll happen.
I have to say, I have not been keeping up. I, I, after feeling so emotionally invested in the outcome in January- Oh my God, yeah... I just can't. Like, I'm seeing these headlines. I refuse to click on them.
I have started to see a couple of TikToks that are like, "You know, this TikTok sale actually is happening, and it's gonna ruin your algorithm because- Yeah... of..."
But I, I refuse to get involved [laughs]- Because of antitrust... un- un- until we actually know. And- Yeah... there's just so much- That's genius... happening politically that it's like
this is not gonna be a source of stress for me. [laughs] Yeah. Yeah. I've actually been, um, scrolling Twitter less the past couple weeks because it's finally kind of just breaking me a little bit.
Oh, I destroyed my algorithm. I, I destroyed it, and then I was sort of leaning into it, and I was like, "Okay, Candace Owen conspiracy theory. Let's just look and see what this is."
But then it's like that's my whole algorithm now.
And I've, like, destroyed my algorithm in the past and, like, un-destroyed it 'cause, you know, Twitter used to be, like, not as sensitive, but TikTok's always been sensitive. So, like, if you watch- Yeah...
one tarot reader all the way through- Mm-hmm... top to bottom tarot readers. But you know- It-... how to, like, get yourself out of that. Yeah. Twitter has become so sensitive that, like- It's really hard to change it...
Right. Like, if you like, like, one corny horoscope thing as a joke, it's, like, top to bottom tweets about zodiac signs. And so I kind of, like, accidentally, like, Q-and-Oned my timeline.
[laughs] And because I log into the Dirt Twitter from my same device, it's like both of them, they're, like, correlated. Mm. So anyway, I think... I don't know why I'm on there really. Um,
I'm seeing, like, a lot of bad stuff, and now- Yeah... I'm just like, "I guess I have to look at the bad stuff since I'm here." [laughs] Or you could just scroll LinkedIn. [laughs] That's what I do.
That's- That's what I do... a different breed of bad stuff. Yeah. Or- Somebody-... worse, the Sub Stack apps. Oh my God. That one I don't do. Did you see, um, Victoria's...
I w- I can't remember her last name, but I know that she's a trend forecaster. The Nike girl. Yes. [laughs] Yeah, exactly. Victoria from Nike. So- Victoria Futures. Shout out to Victoria Futures- Yes... is her handle.
Yeah. So she tweeted, like, "Do people understand that we can tell that these comments are AI?" And she screenshotted, like- Loud and clear comments, yeah... some LinkedIn comments that were like, "Such a good point.
I feel like this is really important." And I was like, I think that they can tell. I think that they're leaning into the signifier that having commented is more important than what is- Yeah... in the comment. Mm.
And- Ugh... so it's like comment slop. Like, somebody published a piece about work slop. I'm getting so over blank slop. Blank slop. Yeah. [laughs] Debate slop. Comment slop.
I, uh- Well, we were gonna call today's Dirt Bernard maxing, and I nixed that because I was like- [laughs]... we've maxed enough. Wait- We've slopped enough... are you tired of slop as, like, seeing that word around?
Or you're ti- you're, you're tired of it as a concept? Or- All of the above, Casey... all of the above. Okay. [laughs] But specifically, specifically I think the word. Like, it's, it's- The word...
I, I, I feel like I'm so... I've become so sensitive to, like, these words that become, like, for, like, one or two months, like, so hot. Maxing. But I, I just- Yeah...
as, like, as soon as I see it three times, I just start checking out, and I, I start, like, I haven't... I don't think I've muted slop on Twitter, but I have a lot of- Yeah...
like, recent, like, hot words muted on Twitter where I'm just like, "I, I, I don't need to participate in this trend." What's the next one? "I don't need to read this." What's the next one? Core, core slop maxing?
My mom was visiting this weekend, you guys, and she teaches a lot of Gen Alpha. Mm-hmm. And so she was telling me about some Gen Alpha lingo. Um- Oh, six, seven. Yeah, six, seven. I don't know this. Um, I think...
Oh, I think we're at, I think we're past peak six, six, seven. Yeah. It's, um- I figured if I knew about it, [laughs] we're past peak. And, and, like, my mom- Yeah, you're washing up...
I love her, but she's also, um, 68. 68. Oh, our parents are the same age. She was like, "I'm too bad that I'm not 67." [laughs] Um, but sh- you know, she's a 68-year-old woman, so
i- she is educating me, but I'm also sort of like, "Okay, I'm taking it with a grain of salt"- Yeah... just because, like, I, she doesn't have, like, the nuances, nor do I. But, you know- Mm...
it's just, it's, she's not the Gen Alpha explaining this to me. She's a, um, 68-year-old woman explaining Gen Alpha to me. Um, so six, seven, she said, is, is on its way out, though.
And in its place, well, everyone's going around talking about s- I made a note. I gotta, I gotta- [laughs]... check, fact-check myself here. Um-You stole my brain rot. So we like all know brain rot, obviously. Mm-hmm.
Oh, yes. But do you, do you know this phrase, you stole my brain rot? No. Uh-uh. So [laughs] it's a Roblox game, and it has then turned into like a catchphrase. Mm.
There's probably gen alpha parents listening right now who are like, "That, that's actually like an incorrect need on it." But it's like tur- it, it's gone from Roblox to...
It's descended Roblox to the s- to the hallways of school. And it just, you know, like so many things, like six seven, it, it really is meaningless. It just indicates that you are in on it. That you know. Yeah. Mm-hmm.
Exactly. And so, and I think that's with so many things, where it's like you're just telling people... I mean, I'm, I'm sure Daisy has seen this, 'cause she spends time on TikTok, but like the I know ball meme. Yeah.
Oh, I know that because I watch soccer and I'm on soccer Twitter. Yeah. Okay. Okay. Yeah. I just- Um-... and so the first time I saw that, I saw it like somebody use that on LinkedIn, I'm like, "How...
This is clearly-" Oh, no... "so far away from like, like, oh-" Oh, no. "... she knows ball." You know? Like... Ugh. Those things should not be on LinkedIn. I'm gonna get off of this. Guys,
solemnly swear, as soon as I get off of this, I'm gonna make my LinkedIn status, you stole my brain rot. [laughs] Just see what happens.
Okay, I'm gonna, I'm gonna reveal a few of the words I currently have muted, and I, I, I delete these over time, and they're all muted- Okay... just for people I don't follow. Um, Renaissance painting.
That one's- Yeah... been on for a while. Uh, bingo card. Mm. Good one. Uh, Labubu. Great one. And most recently, protein. Well, yeah. Yeah. I just, I- Bingo card just-... didn't need to see... Oh, sorry. Go ahead.
Was there a trend around bingo card, or were you just tired, tired of... Were you tired of people saying, "That's not on my bingo card"? I was tired of that. I was just like, "I don't care. I do...
I- it wasn't on your bingo card. I, I just don't ever need to see anybody say [laughs] this again." [laughs] I, I will, I will exclusively reveal, please don't Google this, um- Yeah...
that when I was the opinions editor of the high school newspaper, I did, I like wrote... It's so bad. I went back, I'm like, "God, I'm such an asshole." I wrote a piece about, um,
about like how I was tired of like cell phone speak, you know, taking over how people wrote in, on the internet or something. What a crank.
It's, it's really ki- [laughs] It's, yeah, very crank, and like really like, God, I've, I've, I've You've always been insufferable... f- held it. I've always been insufferable. Mm-hmm.
Um, I'm actually less insufferable than I used to be, which is saying, [laughs] saying a lot. Yeah. [laughs] It's pretty insufferable myself. Yeah. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Um, okay. Voted most likely to succeed.
Most likely to succeed. I have no idea what I was voted. Um, Casey, I wanted you to... I've read your writing about this, but for the listener who has never heard of Salish Matter- Ugh...
I would love for you to, to spill a little. Oh my gosh. This girl has occupied my thoughts for the last two weeks. And I, I don't wanna be...
Well, sh- do, do you want me to give the like two-second- So, so what I know is she is a- Yeah... 14-year-old, uh- 15... tic- 15-year-old TikTok creator- Yeah... who... That's all I really, that's all...
[laughs] And she had a m- a Sephora collaboration come out, where 80,000 people went to, what, the Mall of America. That, this is all I know. Yeah. Um, so yeah, I had a couple of people send me...
There w- there were a few headlines when Sephora made the announcement that they were, um, starting a line with this girl, this 15-year-old influencer, and I'd never heard the name, which like, you know, there's so many influencers.
Like, it's not like I was- Industry plant. Exactly. [laughs] But, you know, I wasn't like, "How have I never heard this name in my life?" But I was like, "I need to know more about this girl. Like, this is fascinating."
And then I tried to watch some of her videos, but it's, it's, it, it... Forgive me, but it's kindergartner slop. [laughs] It's, it's truly like- Rough watch... MrBeast- Oh, my God...
MrBeast content for an eight-year-old girl. And the, the worst part about this is, and I, I, I feel a little bit like- I love the broken social scene. Um [laughs] I, I feel a little bit like um,
old person shaking my fist at this. Mm-hmm. But the, the demented thing about it is her, most of the content lives on her dad's channel, and her dad pu- publishes content that's like, um, "My daughter's first kiss." No.
And it's like, but then it's edited to be like MrBeast-ish. So like the optimized, crazy thumbnails, and the crazy editing, and the, like it's literally for seven-year-olds. History will not look kindly on this.
It, and, and it's like, and did Sephora not do like the tiniest bit of like due diligence into this? Like, did they just see 15-year-old influencer, has this much reach, let's go?
Like it, and so then w- if you look at the TikToks or the reels from this, you know, the 80,000 kids showed up. Like, we're talking kids. We're talking like kids.
[laughs] And so I saw a, um, a haul, and a girl was like, "And this is, um... Well, I actually don't know how to read. Mom, what is this?" No. And these are beauty hauls.
And so it's just, it, it, it got me thinking like, the, you know, influencers sell stuff. Like, they do. They sell stuff. Mm-hmm. And like, she's by no means the first child influencer.
Like, there's the kid who like does the toy... I mean, there's probably millions of kids- Yeah... who are now like toy influencers. Like, that w- Yeah... that is the reality that we live in.
But there's something a little bit icky about not just the dad engineering all of this, but also the fact that it's like, they're beauty products. Like, it's- Yeah...
skincare, but it's like we're selling a $20 moisturizer to a seven-year-old who- It's not age appropriate... wants this because- Yeah... she wants to have beautiful skin. It's just so crazy.
So- Well, it's like the simultaneous infal- infantilization of grown-up female celebrities, and then like- Yes... the accelerated, like, grown-up-ness- Mm... of the genuinely young ones.
And like, I think the internet, like, people have said like part of the problem with the internet is it just dumps all of the age groups onto the same platforms. Yeah. Whereas like growing up- Yes...
it's like, if you're watching Disney Channel, you're watching Disney Channel, and most likely adults are not. And if they are, they aren't discussing it...
with you except for maybe on internet forums that neither of you should be on, and everyone knew that was bad. And now, like- Yeah... and they were saying it was bad at the time.
But you have, like, on one hand, "I'm 17 and I'm afraid of Sabrina Carpenter," who, like, that is a- [laughs]... grown-ass woman doing whatever the fuck she wants. [laughs] And then you have, like, 12-year-olds...
And actually I think I'd be interested in hearing your perspective. I think celebrities have become more conscious of not prematurely aging their children in the public spotlight.
There's still, like, a little bit of that, but, like, I would say it seems like, um, [lip smacks] Beyoncé and Gen Z... Jay-Z [laughs] Gen Z. [laughs] Beyoncé and Jay-Z. Beyoncé and Gen Z. That's amazing Freudian slip.
[laughs] And, um, the, the Kardashians are actually, like, consciously trying to avoid their kids falling into this trap where it's like, "Okay, we can't entirely keep them out of the spotlight, but if I'm gonna do makeup with my child," they're clearly using it in a very kinda childlike
way, which isn't entirely avoiding the problem, but it seems like it's not... It's, like, this girl's dad. It's not, like, the most famous celebrities that are doing this with their kids.
It's people who aspire to celebrity and are kind of, like, not celebrity people. And so they're- Yeah... kind of leveraging their children in this way that becomes, like, super inappropriate.
Yeah, it's like tech, like, you know, Silicon Valley tech CEOs who don't let their kids on technology [laughs] don't have any devices. Yeah. It's like...
Although, I will say, uh, in my deep dive into this girl and her dad, Khloé Kardashian's kids are noted fans of her. Oh, interesting. And so they had sent... I, I... They had sent, like, a...
I went so deep into Reddit on this, but the, the Staylish and her father had sent, like, a, some sort of care package or a signed autograph or something to Khloé's kids. Um, I'm not sure how old Khloé's kids are.
I, I'm not sure if that is, like, questionably ap- you know- Mm-hmm... appropriate age-wise. But, um, but yeah, I, I mean, I... It's, it's tough because, like- There's seven and three according to which- Okay, so the...
Exactly. Like, that, that just goes to show, like, what age group is into what this girl is making, which then makes the fact that she has a skincare company, or brands sold at Sephora all the more confounding.
It's like w- three-year-olds don't need skincare. No, this is not- Um-... like Candy Cane Bath & Body Works, which was like, you know. Exactly. And, um- That gets a pass. [laughs] Mm-hmm. Yeah.
We were buying, like, Lip Smackers glitter chapter packs. Glitter. And I was like, "This is my makeup." [laughs] Exactly. Like, and I played in my mom's makeup, but it was pl- it was play. Yeah.
I was buying RuneScape paid subscriptions. [laughs] Is that the video game? In your closet. Literally in his closet. Yeah, it was... It's like a- Yes... World of Warcraft precursor. I...
Then I started playing World of Warcraft, which was three times more expensive per month, or was then. [laughs] So yeah, I mean, maybe that's the point.
Maybe these are all just, you know, i- it's a variation on what used to be the... You know, it's just
consumers and corporations are so much more, uh, sophisticated now in how they market, and, you know, there, Sephora, there wasn't as... Sephora wasn't everywhere when I was a kid. Like,
I, uh, the only makeup I had access to or that I could even try on or wh- was what was at Bath & Body Works or limited to- Mm-hmm...
were, like, the, the department store had, like, a Clinique counter and an Estée Lauder counter. Mm-hmm. Like, that wasn't for me, and I wasn't interested. Claire's. Claire's. Cl- I mean, this- That's a good point.
Yeah... this brings me back to the conversation we were having kind of at the beginning of this of, like, it's all marketing, and, like, Gen Alpha will be more, like, sophisticated about marketing.
And I'm thinking of, like, myself in high school being insufferable and being like, "Oh, I'm gonna watch the Super Bowl ads.
I would never watch the Super Bowl, but I'm gonna watch the ads because, like, I need to know that, and that's cool to know about the ads."
[laughs] But, but now it's like, I mean, when we're talking about these kids being marketed to, like, so aggressively and so early and so thoroughly, like, what's...
Is, is it then just, like, them kind of having to hopefully naturally understand this? Or is it, like, English 101 in college becomes [laughs] Marketing 101 and everyone takes... I don't know.
I'm just kind of riffing here. But, like, how... Is it just then that, like, it becomes, uh, the natural mode to do marketing, and that's just kind of like a language that kids speak?
So I, I think it was Ryan Broderick just wrote about... I think it was him. Mm-hmm. A, a big piece on Roblox for New York Mag, and he talked about how...
He cited some crazy, uh, statistic or it was maybe an executive quote about how few kids kn- understand that they're being marketed to on Roblox. Mm.
Like, these are all brand, you know, uh, brands are buying out placements or whatever. So few of them actually knew that that was the case, and so that's what gets a little scary.
'Cause you kind of assume that because they're such shrewd consumers and- Sam Biddle. It was Sam Biddle, just for the record. Oh, Sam Biddle. Yes. Yeah, sorry.
Um, y- because they're such shrewd consumers, you kind of, uh, think that they would understand that, you know, this is a brand sponsorship, that I am being advertised to.
But the, the statistic in there is, is shocking, and so then it really makes you think, okay, if w- you know, I mean, literacy, it, it, it- They don't have media literacy... on one hand, it's surprising. Yeah.
What's that? Uh, they don't have media literacy or there's, like- Right... big holes in it. 'Cause even that, like, trope- Right...
of people commenting, like, "Marketing," it's like, well, I think you actually mean creative direction. Like, in these larger campaigns- Mm. Yeah...
or agencies, like, paid marketing, organic marketing, social creative direction, like, these are actually all separate functions.
Um, and the person who came up with the idea is not the person who decided how it would be disseminated on TikTok.
And I almost think, like, s- just commenting "Marketing" under something [laughs] is kind of, like, the new version of saying, like, "Give the social media intern a raise." Yeah.
And there's something weird about it- It's like you have no idea what you're talking about...
where it's like people who don't have a lot of subject matter domain expertise or media literacy still feel like they're participating in the conversation because it's on their feed and they have an opinion about it.
Yeah. But they have big holes in their understanding of how that thing came to be made. I'm also thinking now- That's hilarious... about, like, my- Like- Oh, go ahead. [laughs] Well, just, it, it...
Imagine all the girls commenting, "Marketing." [laughs] Like, give me the definition of paid marketing. It's boring as hell. Mm. Yeah. Like, you are not into marketing. [laughs] Yeah. They definitely don't know.
I, I'm thinking, though, of, like, my dad, I remember telling me once in, when I was a teenager and I, like, wanted to buy some shirt, and he was like, uh, you know, he, he was born, like, the mid-'50s, right?
So in, like, the late '60s, early '70s, he, uh, he said he was like, "I knew I, I would never wear a shirt with a logo on it because, like, they're giving it away because they want me to be a walking billboard.
I'm not gonna be a walking billboard." [laughs] And, like, this, like, Boomer from rural Germany versus, like, these kids now who are, like,
doing Sephora hauls when they're 17 and are like- Yeah, not only will I take a free logo shirt, I'll pay a premium for it. [laughs] Exactly. [laughs] Exactly, yeah. That's very true.
[laughs] I'll pay you to be your billboard. Mm-hmm. [laughs] But I will- Well, that's a nice place to stop... I... Yeah, that's a great place to stop. Uh- If you wanna be a billboard for Tasteland, get in touch.
Iggy- [laughs]... Iggy Pop, uh, I wanna be your billboard. Um- Yeah, exactly. Yeah. Casey, thank you for coming on again. Thank you, Casey. Thank you guys so much. It was so nice to see you.
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