WEBVTT

1
00:00:00.100 --> 00:00:14.740
[upbeat music] Welcome to Tasteland. I am your co-host, Francis Zehrer. And I'm Daisy Alioto, and I'm very relieved that Francis is back. I'm back. Um, it was...

2
00:00:14.800 --> 00:00:24.900
You know, it's, [laughs] it's been a long two weeks without me, I know. But- Well- I'm back... long for me, but not for you. You were chilling in Mexico. I was chilling in Mexico, work offsite.

3
00:00:25.160 --> 00:00:33.560
Um, I'd never been to Mexico before. Interesting. Yeah. I still haven't really been to Mexico 'cause it w- you know. I would say, yeah. We were like doing a beachside thing. Well, maybe we can do a little

4
00:00:34.760 --> 00:00:44.920
Tasteland Mexico City, um, jaunt. That would be fun. [laughs] That would be fun. I have an open invitation from one of our freelancers that lives in Mexico City. I'm like, I don't- Just stay at their house. Yeah.

5
00:00:45.000 --> 00:00:54.170
I was like, "I don't... Are you, you sure?" It's like... And she was like, "Yeah, whenever." You should do it. This is how the chorizo is made, people. Yeah. Um, anyways [laughs] Sorry.

6
00:00:54.170 --> 00:00:58.040
Speaking of chorizo, who are we talking to today? Sorry about that. We're talking to Matt Rodbard.

7
00:00:58.160 --> 00:01:10.680
He's a writer, editor, and author of food and culture books, with more than two decades of experience working in television, magazines, book publishing, and online media. Uh, he has a podcast called Taste. This Is Taste.

8
00:01:11.480 --> 00:01:20.580
Um, yes. Mm. Um, he has taste, but he doesn't have land. [laughs] So... [laughs] Well, neither do we. [laughs] And neither do we. We just got the- No, we have millennial real estate on the time, though. Yeah.

9
00:01:20.660 --> 00:01:31.660
Oh, God, good callback. Um- Good callback... anyways, I'm a fa- I'm a fan of his work. I'm a fan of his podcast. We've had his, uh, often co-host, co-podcaster, Eliza Barbaranell, on the podcast before. Yeah, we did.

10
00:01:32.160 --> 00:01:41.040
He's also the founding editor of- I remember her from Casey... Taste, the publication. Yeah I should say that, of which This Is Taste is a part. Anyways, um, I was at the Webbys last night.

11
00:01:41.600 --> 00:01:51.300
You were at the Webbys last night, and you took a selfie with the Rizzler. I did. Well, it wasn't a selfie. Our mutual friend, Ari, uh, did take the photo. Um, I have to say- Okay...

12
00:01:51.310 --> 00:02:03.280
this picture of me with the Rizzler is- You look much older than him. Well, [laughs] I... It's 'cause I'm about 21 years older than him, [laughs] give or take- Yeah... a couple of years. Uh, but, uh...

13
00:02:03.360 --> 00:02:17.180
Okay, so he was there because he won an award w- uh, with this video that our mutual friend, Ari, from- Mm-hmm... Air, my old employer, my old boss, uh, they made a video with him. They won. Uh, they had a whole table.

14
00:02:17.260 --> 00:02:24.780
I was not sitting with him. I was sitting somewhere nearby. I didn't win, but I would like to say for the record I did not pay to enter. No, which is the only way you can win. You have to pay to enter. Yeah.

15
00:02:24.880 --> 00:02:35.140
Which is like any awards show. Like, you know, I think the Oscars you don't, but the Grammys, the Emmys, I know you do. Um, anyways, the Rizzler, it was 10:00 PM. It was his bedtime, um, I imagine.

16
00:02:35.200 --> 00:02:45.470
Far be it from me to say, I suppose. But I was really impressed by his composure, uh, his willingness to take the picture. Um, yeah, I... Shout out to that guy. He's... I don't know.

17
00:02:45.500 --> 00:02:54.500
He's- Five boobs for the Rizzler's maturity level. Five boobs for the Rizzler. You know, he is properly rated, perhaps underrated. Uh- What beverage was he having? I don't know. I was, uh...

18
00:02:54.660 --> 00:03:03.100
[laughs] What beverage were you having? I was... I had some white wine. [laughs] Anyways, Matt's here. We'll get to that. Okay. Well, I'm assuming the Rizzler did not have white wine. The w- the Rizzler did not [laughs]

19
00:03:03.109 --> 00:03:20.120
have... The Rizzler had no Chablis. I just hope you did something special for him. [upbeat music] Um, okay. I was just talking about the Webbys. I was at the Webbys last night, um, not as a winner, but as press.

20
00:03:20.360 --> 00:03:30.450
Uh, but I wanted- But as a loser... as a l- as a l- Come on, Daisy. [laughs] I didn't even apply. I'm actually not a loser because I did not submit Creator Spotlight or Tasteland to be a Webby. What?

21
00:03:30.460 --> 00:03:41.960
So I was just there as press, um, which was great. But I wanted to bring up some food Webbys, um, just briefly. Okay. [laughs] So there's a number of, you know, food-related categories.

22
00:03:42.020 --> 00:03:52.480
We're not gonna go over all of them but, um, I was there in the capacity of writing about... They've got this new creator category, right? Like, the, the... It's... The Webbys have always kind of had creator

23
00:03:53.640 --> 00:03:55.900
awards, but now they've got a specific one.

24
00:03:56.000 --> 00:04:06.880
But anyways, this was the one that was most interesting to me, the Most Viral award in the creator category, categories, um, which is the Webbys one, which is the formal voting body, right?

25
00:04:07.000 --> 00:04:21.140
And then there's the People's Voice- Mm-hmm... which is the one where anyone can vote. But, um, Most Viral took the formal award, not the People's Voice, for Sometimes You Need to Eat an Entire Cucumber.

26
00:04:21.209 --> 00:04:29.320
Most important question, are we talking English cucumber, or are we talking, like, some kind of fancy varietal that is- Oh, it was... Did you not see these videos? [laughs] I did see these videos. You did? Yeah.

27
00:04:29.340 --> 00:04:37.420
So it must be English. I think it's an English standard. Um, but- Oh, is this the TikTok guy that makes the cucumber salads and shakes them in the container? Yes, that guy. Okay, yeah. And he does it in a lake. Um, okay.

28
00:04:37.440 --> 00:04:51.260
He's cool. We'll, we'll do one more though, uh, before we move on from this. The creator winner for the food and drink category specifically, the Webby, the formal Webby, went to The Babish Culinary Universe. Okay.

29
00:04:51.300 --> 00:05:02.420
And the People's Voice went to Joshua Weissman. Weissman, he's the biggest food creator on YouTube, like hands down. Uh, and he just split up his, his universe.

30
00:05:02.760 --> 00:05:12.820
He's doing his, uh, around the globe stuff, and then he's back to his traditional Weissman in the kitchen slapping his ass, like, you know, flexing his muscles.

31
00:05:13.660 --> 00:05:22.210
And I like that pivot for him, that he's back in the kitchen, not just doing like the top 10 chicken sandwiches around the world kind of stuff. Which is no shade, I like that stuff too. Mm-hmm. Yeah.

32
00:05:22.240 --> 00:05:31.060
What do you think, Francis, about the, about the... These guys, Babish and Weissman? I- Yeah, I think... I mean, what's, what's most interesting to me is, like, the definition of creator.

33
00:05:31.230 --> 00:05:37.580
And I would say both of these guys are creators, but they're so matured as a type of creator, right? Like, when I...

34
00:05:38.900 --> 00:05:45.310
This is, this is like one of my ongoing bits on Creator Spotlight, my, my other newsletter and podcast, is like what does it mean to be a creator? He has a lot of bits. I have a lot of bits. [laughs] Two...

35
00:05:45.380 --> 00:05:55.950
But I have two definitions. One is more broad, which would fit really anybody, fit all of us, fit anybody on any category of these Webbys, right? Is, um, somebody contributing to the corpus of the internet.

36
00:05:56.420 --> 00:06:15.456
Uh, but my more specific one, especially as it relates to my usual work, is like somebody, uh, creating content for distribution online to an audience beyond their immediate friends and family who is trying in some ways to monetize it.But another thing that I've kind of removed and added from my definition at various times is this idea of independence, right?

37
00:06:15.466 --> 00:06:24.116
And I think, um, Babish is part of this network, like of maybe talent... They're both part of talent management networks, but I think they're both still relatively independent.

38
00:06:24.136 --> 00:06:33.636
But it's like, it's like when the Grammys have Best New Artist and they've been around for 10 years, right? Like- Yeah. It's like H.E.R. gets that award every year. Yeah. [laughs] Like, I feel H.E.R.

39
00:06:33.716 --> 00:06:40.796
has been the best new artist for, like, the past 10 years. Like, the, it's new every year. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Um, what about...

40
00:06:41.876 --> 00:06:46.506
So I, I, I, listened to your recent episode with Robert Sietsema, one of my favorite food critics- Yeah...

41
00:06:46.556 --> 00:06:57.016
who, as we all know, um, we've talked about this actually multiple times on the podcast, was laid off from Eater around six months or so ago, and now he has a newsletter on Substack. Uh, it's- And now I don't read Eater.

42
00:06:57.396 --> 00:07:04.956
I couldn't tell you the last time I went to the site. I stopped reading after that. I, I still, I actually still check it, like, once a week, but I used to check it every morning.

43
00:07:05.036 --> 00:07:15.776
Um, I, I, it's, I'm, I'm much less informed on New York food now. You know, actually food is one of the categories that I just don't know if we're gonna be doing a lot of linking from Clone. Um,

44
00:07:16.776 --> 00:07:24.876
you know, it's like how much culture of the tech and culture do we wanna be doing? But I, maybe I should add Eater to the blog roll. Y- you should add Taste to your, uh, Clone.

45
00:07:24.896 --> 00:07:38.816
And by the way, as a sidebar, congratulations. Super fly design. Thank you. I think I was, uh, visitor 11,750. Mm. Uh, what an endorphin rush to have that at the top of your page every day, must say. Thank you.

46
00:07:38.846 --> 00:07:48.756
It look... It's, it's terrific. I love that. I love what you're doing there. Thank you so much. Yeah. It's really cool. The response has been really positive. Very cool. Sorry, I had to say that. No, I think...

47
00:07:48.876 --> 00:07:52.116
Well, okay. We were gonna talk about Clone a little bit anyway. We were gonna talk about Clone at some point.

48
00:07:52.376 --> 00:08:01.316
Um, I do, I do wanna, you know, as, as, uh, by using the, the Robert Sietsema transition though, I do still wanna talk about that.

49
00:08:01.396 --> 00:08:29.336
So one thing that I found really interesting is right around the time he was laid off and all these, a, a few other of his colleagues were, were laid off from Eater, um, Mike Chow of Foodbaby, New York, he had a listicle, speaking of, you know, 10 best chicken sandwiches, a listicle of like, I think it was like the 24 best slices of cake in New York City that was published in Eater, and it was his first byline in Eater, though he'd been used as a source for longer features twice.

50
00:08:29.736 --> 00:08:42.556
Um, and I found that to be really interesting and not really a coincidence, right? That, like, right when a bunch of these much more longer tenured writers were laid off, Mike Chow- Yeah...

51
00:08:42.576 --> 00:08:55.476
the Instagram guy- Are you, are you, are you sensing a, a sea change shift? I have, I have a thought on that strategy. Mm. Uh, but I, I get a sense, Francis, from your, the, the windup that this is not your, the Eater...

52
00:08:55.656 --> 00:09:04.545
This is not like the Lockhart Steele Eater that you, that you loved before. Well, we sort of talked about it in the context of, like, Lindy Man and Cold Healing and GQ. Okay.

53
00:09:04.576 --> 00:09:15.716
Nick Cocchi then bringing them in- Which is like-... all around the same time... instead of the... I mean, Gawker is a prime example, and it, that legacy carried through Deadspin and now Defector.

54
00:09:16.316 --> 00:09:23.086
You take these writers, you give them a platform, and they build their platform through their affiliation with the publication.

55
00:09:23.786 --> 00:09:35.336
Now, the strategy is take people that already have a platform and, you know, bring them onto the publication in hopes that they will bring their audience with them.

56
00:09:35.776 --> 00:09:46.456
Um, which is, I think it's a short-term versus a longer, long-term game. Agree fully. I think it's absolutely an audience development strategy from, from Eater, and I, I...

57
00:09:46.876 --> 00:09:57.876
I'll just say, my take on Eater, I think they're doing terrific journalism, like Uchita Macklynthal, like Rebecca Marx at Eater National. I think it's worth reading. I think what Jaya Saxena is, is writing is great.

58
00:09:58.056 --> 00:10:03.816
I'm not trying to stand for Eater. I... These are just longtime colleagues. Mm-hmm. So I just have to say I, I read it- No, I love Jaya... and link to it.

59
00:10:04.456 --> 00:10:13.456
Uh, and I think it's really, really important work, and we can talk about the death of the, of the website or the webpage, of the single page, the article text on the scr- on the screen 'cause I have a lot of thoughts.

60
00:10:13.536 --> 00:10:25.795
But I think it's an audience development play to bring in creators to do text-on-page articles and hoping that there's a halo effect for traffic, uh, from Foodbaby or whoever it may be writing these listicles.

61
00:10:26.316 --> 00:10:36.436
They gotta do what they gotta do to, to- Mm... develop audience, right? Um, I don't, I didn't read that piece. I'm not sure if it was good or bad. Um, tend to probably not read a Foodbaby byline, uh, in Eater.

62
00:10:36.636 --> 00:10:46.375
At least, so I'm not drawn to it by the byline. But I, I think that they're just trying to get any, th- by any means possible, get people to read eater.com and click on the page. I... No, I totally agree.

63
00:10:46.476 --> 00:10:54.956
And I mean- Yeah... look, I will, I'll en- I'll engage with a Foodbaby Instagram post. [laughs] It's no shade to him, and it's no shade- No doubt... to, like, you know, what you have to do to, to survive.

64
00:10:55.416 --> 00:11:03.266
Um, but it is more, to me, like, a bummer in that I specifically went to Eater to read Robert's work, right? Um, so now I, I go there, but much less.

65
00:11:03.636 --> 00:11:13.876
But one thing Robert said on that episode you did with him is that, um, the food critic is being supplanted by social media, which not necessarily a new thing, but you guys talked about how that's not necessarily a bad thing.

66
00:11:14.696 --> 00:11:21.116
Yeah. I mean, Robert is somebody who, uh, I think has a, a really great take on everything. I don't think he's bitter.

67
00:11:21.216 --> 00:11:35.856
I think that he knew that this day would come for him, and he doesn't wanna be the, the grumpy old guy talking about, you know, shading the creators who are out there doing what they will, which could be giving really poor, lukewarm takes about restaurants.

68
00:11:35.876 --> 00:11:45.296
Some of it's paid and completely PR-driven, and some of it is very thoughtful, and it is maybe suppli- supplanting or at least complementing the, the food critic.

69
00:11:45.726 --> 00:11:55.846
And I think with Robert, it's like, go to his Substack and pay 30 bucks a year and b- and get Robert, uh, get Robert's, uh, take on the city. He's publishing multiple, uh, Substacks a week.

70
00:11:56.276 --> 00:12:02.356
It's good stuff, and he's doing the work, which with, when it comes to food writing, you really can't growth hack this thing.

71
00:12:02.436 --> 00:12:13.416
Like, if it's, if it's literally, like, local journalism covering a city or covering a state, you can't growth hack it. You have to literally go in, put your butt in the seat, order the food, try it out.

72
00:12:13.456 --> 00:12:26.836
Like, there, that's why it's very, very... There's a low margin with food media because of the, the time it takes to do the work and the cost it takes to do the work. So I think he has a really good... I love that.

73
00:12:26.976 --> 00:12:28.176
Thank you for listening to the episode.

74
00:12:28.216 --> 00:12:36.616
I think it was really important that he got it out there that he's just, you know, still being Robert and riding his bicycle around, going to all the great restaurants that we have never heard of.

75
00:12:36.996 --> 00:12:50.328
The Bill Cunningham of food media. Oh, my gosh.He is tireless. And the Robert Sitsema documentary will happen. I, I'm sure there's a young, um, uh, entrepreneurial filmmaker who, who will be linking with him.

76
00:12:50.468 --> 00:12:55.627
And, you know, I thought the Jonathan Gold documentary was very, like, up and down. It was fine. It was a pretty good documentary.

77
00:12:56.227 --> 00:13:03.188
But I think Robert's is, is a totally different ballgame, and I hope somebody actually does that 'cause I think it would be a terrific piece. Well, you said he's writing a memoir, right?

78
00:13:03.588 --> 00:13:12.818
He's writing a memoir, like, slowly, and I think, uh, I, I've been able to acquire a bunch of early editions, or I guess editions [chuckles] of Down the Hatch, his- [chuckles]...

79
00:13:12.848 --> 00:13:23.308
original, you know, copy and paste zine that he did at his, his, his job after hours. He stole the copy, uh, pr- uh, ink from the, from his job.

80
00:13:23.888 --> 00:13:35.988
And he's, he's such an original voice out there, and, and we gotta treasure Robert for his work. Are they making a Keith McNally movie? Ooh. Well, you guys read- Somebody has to have thought of it by now I, I bought...

81
00:13:36.108 --> 00:13:44.547
I ordered the book the other day. I have not read it yet. I haven't read it yet either. Well, I- And it wasn't Balthazar the other day... I flex- I, I got the Mc- McGally. Ooh [laughs] I got the McGally. I...

82
00:13:44.728 --> 00:13:53.698
What a flex, and I read it. [laughs] And I also read The Great and Carter back to back. Mm. I was doing... I, I, I didn't read, uh, the- Perfect double feature... I didn't read the Lorne.

83
00:13:53.768 --> 00:14:05.318
The Lorne is just too much, and, you know- Mm... hagiography perhaps. But I think the... They're both very different. I thought McNally's was... It's... He's so l- like, he's so literary. Mm-hmm.

84
00:14:05.428 --> 00:14:27.348
The man loves books, and it's tremendous to see his, him flexing, especially, um, in the early sections about the books he read as a kid, and, you know, his, his, uh, his relationships with, um, really the, the highest, uh, level of, of London, um, the, the, the, the, the, the world of, of plays and, and l- like academia.

85
00:14:27.378 --> 00:14:38.088
Mm. He was in that, those circles at a young age. Really cool, cool book. Um, one more thing on the, the food creator aspect I wanna talk about- Yeah... is I've been noticing...

86
00:14:38.128 --> 00:14:48.108
This might just be my own personal feed and, you know, my own algorithmic curation over the past few years, but I feel like I've been starting to notice more critical people making these Instagram Reels, right?

87
00:14:48.188 --> 00:15:00.418
Like, as perhaps, you know, your, your eaters lay off their last staff food critic, um, specifically people like Rob Martinez in New York City, I think he's really good. James Dimitri in London.

88
00:15:00.717 --> 00:15:11.848
This guy Johnny Novo in New York City, who just does rotisserie chicken reviews. These are all people who I think aren't doing purely positive, promotional, basically freelance marketing for restaurants.

89
00:15:12.228 --> 00:15:23.728
Not that it's not that too, but there's, like... They're going to say, "The chicken was dry. This tea sucked." You know, this kind of thing. Uh, and I feel like I wasn't seeing that as much a couple years ago.

90
00:15:23.828 --> 00:15:36.078
Maybe this is some kind of recency bias. But I do think that there is more and more thriving, actually critical engagement with, with some of these people. France, I love the mention of Rob Martinez.

91
00:15:36.108 --> 00:15:39.968
He's been on our show, and I, I really respect his work, and I, I think you're absolutely right.

92
00:15:40.068 --> 00:15:51.728
And I, I think that's a matter of, of more, uh, folks moving on to Reels and TikTok, uh, for their, their food, their food knowledge. And, and really the audience is becoming more discerning.

93
00:15:52.208 --> 00:16:06.008
And so the, the stretchy cheese pulls from the sisters i- is for a certain audience, but I think if you wanna look at food critically, there's a, there's people who are just migrating over, uh, to this social video platform that we, we all love.

94
00:16:06.628 --> 00:16:18.128
And you're right. The, the, they're, they're talking shit sometimes, and it's important to, to see it. I think it's, like, very powerful to have somebody on mic and on camera say, "I don't like this food because..."

95
00:16:18.808 --> 00:16:27.428
It definitely, um, has more power than a, uh, than a written article and a takedown. Mm. And I think you're seeing it also in traditional food media.

96
00:16:27.488 --> 00:16:40.188
So you're seeing, uh, M- McKenzie, uh, out in San Francisco, the San Francisco Chronicle, uh, critic is doing video, uh, reviews es- essentially or, or getting on, on camera.

97
00:16:40.248 --> 00:16:49.408
I think you're gonna see The New York Times critics, uh, and possibly the new critic do more video reviewing. So I think there's definitely... You're seeing it in more traditional spaces as well.

98
00:16:49.438 --> 00:16:57.788
I think the LA Times has done it as well. Um, McKenzie Chung Fagan, sorry, I couldn't remember her full name. Mm. But she's such a terrific critic out in San Francisco.

99
00:16:57.828 --> 00:17:06.348
I just think it's like w- they're finding the audience where they are, and I think the people who have been really married to reading text on the page are just not doing it anymore. Mm.

100
00:17:06.568 --> 00:17:11.548
I, I, I feel this is a little bit of a theme I want to talk about [chuckles] as somebody who edits and really puts a lot of work.

101
00:17:11.608 --> 00:17:24.588
Eliza Barbenal, uh, my co- my co-editor here at Taste, we commit a lot of time like you folks do at Dirt to working in rounds. We're in the Word docs. We're doing the line edits, but it's frustrating as fuck, man.

102
00:17:25.128 --> 00:17:39.388
It's frustrating right now. I, I'm just being honest, being candid. You mean, like, because the amount of attention share going towards short form video versus text? Yeah, and podcasts too. Mm. And just with AI, um,

103
00:17:40.308 --> 00:17:50.568
you know, becoming the go-to, and just, you just have to recognize this, this rapid sea change is affecting... And, and it is traffic, and I, I say it to anyone in our, in our world here.

104
00:17:50.648 --> 00:18:00.608
We, uh, we don't have page view KPIs on our business plan and on our, our editorial plan. We publish the work we think is important, and we hope the audience will be- will find it.

105
00:18:00.648 --> 00:18:08.608
We did this big story about Trader Joe's last year, uh, that by Adam Reiner, his terrific piece, and that got a million page views literally. So- Wow...

106
00:18:08.618 --> 00:18:19.848
we have breakouts once in a while, but day, you know, week to week with our slate of stories, we're struggling to get people to read it. And this is, like, my mom. Like, my mom's not reading- Yeah... Taste right now.

107
00:18:20.178 --> 00:18:27.388
[chuckles] And I'm like, "My mo- " It's like my mom, man. It's not because my mom doesn't wanna read Taste. It's that she's on social video. She's listening to these podcasts. My mom reads Start.

108
00:18:27.488 --> 00:18:34.548
She was the first person- Hell yeah... to text me about my Polo Bar poem in black. [chuckles] Your mom is awesome. I love that your mom is reading Dirt, as she should.

109
00:18:34.648 --> 00:18:41.748
And my mom, less awesome, at least in terms of reading Taste. At least. Maybe she... Your, my mom is reading Dirt, frankly. That might be, that might be her- Yeah, we got her.

110
00:18:42.208 --> 00:18:52.668
Well, I still think about the illustration on, um-TJ's story about horses Oh, that's a classic. [laughs] It was so good. Yeah. I think it was even, like, was it a GIF? It was.

111
00:18:52.728 --> 00:19:01.348
We did some animation with that, uh, and that was- I honestly- Yeah... y- I mean, the more s- there's slop there is, we always sort of like... I mean, we've never, like,

112
00:19:02.788 --> 00:19:13.547
done s- all stock photos, but a lot of our artwork, unless it's a special package, is a bit of an afterthought. It's like, "Oh, God, somebody spin up something in Canva." [laughs] Yeah.

113
00:19:13.748 --> 00:19:26.948
And honestly, like, the worse everything online starts to look, the more I've wanted to double down and invest in custom illustration. Mm-hmm. Um, and I think, maybe this is, this is a bit of a controversial take.

114
00:19:27.028 --> 00:19:36.248
You guys don't have to co-sign. [laughs] But as a woman, I will say I was out, I was at, um, Meriwether Coffee the other day meeting somebody on Hudson Street.

115
00:19:36.308 --> 00:19:45.768
There was a line, obviously, and there were two women in a row who had, like, clearly had work done. They had basically the same nose, the same face, TikTok face.

116
00:19:46.098 --> 00:19:55.478
[laughs] And then there was a woman standing behind them who had more of a, like, distinctive profile. And I, I realized that, like, my eyes could not rest- Mm... on the first two women.

117
00:19:55.498 --> 00:20:04.588
It's like my eyes just, like, slid past them. I couldn't, like, really even, like, look at them. Yeah. Like, not because they weren't attractive to look at.

118
00:20:04.608 --> 00:20:14.208
They were beautiful women, but, like, there was nothing to hang my gaze on. But then the third woman, I was sort of, like, kinda staring at her 'cause I was like, "She looks distinct."

119
00:20:14.908 --> 00:20:28.598
And I feel the same way about the internet right now. Like, obviously do whatever you want with your face. Your body, your choice. But I think, like, there always is a pendulum swing back to

120
00:20:29.608 --> 00:20:40.238
w- the things that actually are distinctive and attract our gaze. And, like, the more sameness there is, the more the things that just don't look like everything else stand out. Mm.

121
00:20:40.308 --> 00:20:49.208
Um, and the problem is, like, you have to have enough people drawn to that and willing to pay for it to support it,

122
00:20:50.408 --> 00:21:03.248
but I do think it's possible to move people over and take them from being consumers of slop to consumers of Tasteful bespoke content.

123
00:21:03.768 --> 00:21:17.778
Um, it's just figuring out what is the pathway that you build from one to the other, and, you know, how do you take somebody who, who d- grew up not paying for content and turn them into somebody who proudly- Yeah...

124
00:21:17.808 --> 00:21:25.008
pays for content? Or n- if not content, something else in the world of your publication, maybe it's not content. Like whether advertising revenue too, yeah? Yeah, yeah.

125
00:21:25.108 --> 00:21:31.708
I cosign, uh, on that big time, and I think having big art is important to us at Taste, and Ellie Skirza, I think, did that alone.

126
00:21:32.228 --> 00:21:57.408
We, we, we definitely have a visual identity that people come back for, and deviating from the mean and having, um, not Canva or AI-generated art or even, like, the standard food photography, I think we at Taste have bucked doing too much art, uh, f- like, food photography driven lead imagery on our, on our, on our homepage and on the, on the social, uh, crops that we do for all the, the platforms.

127
00:21:57.488 --> 00:22:04.328
I think we just need to have... I mean, Illo doesn't always play well with SEO, but SEO is dead, so good riddance.

128
00:22:04.768 --> 00:22:11.618
And it just is important to have a, a strong visual identity that I think Greig Carter writes about in his memoir. Back to that- Mm-hmm...

129
00:22:11.618 --> 00:22:30.588
is like, you know, big art and having a real point of view with art direction as he does at Airmail now, is so key to being that place that, you know, maybe you don't have a million UVs, but if we have a really high quality 200K UVs and a really big newsletter following, you gotta invest in that stuff.

130
00:22:30.618 --> 00:22:37.448
And y- we, we pay our illustrators, and I, I just firmly believe that a visual identity is how you, you get people in.

131
00:22:37.488 --> 00:22:51.018
This is how I think about, like, laying out the newsletter, laying out Career Spotlight every week is, like, I do the test of, like, scroll up and down really quick, and if it all kind of looked the same, then [laughs] then we fucked up and we need to, like, make some custom- Mm...

132
00:22:51.018 --> 00:22:56.208
graphic or find the right screenshot or, like, some Instagram posts from, you know, s- the person we're interviewing, whatever.

133
00:22:56.608 --> 00:23:05.988
But I, I think it's easy for people to forget that a newsletter is a visual medium, I think even before it's a written medium, you know? Um, that's...

134
00:23:06.008 --> 00:23:10.868
Which is a line I got from, uh, Ernie Smith, who writes the newsletter, Tedium, that he's been doing for, like, a decade.

135
00:23:10.888 --> 00:23:21.768
But he got his start as, like, a, a newspaper layout guy, like, 20 years ago, and ever since he told me that, it's like y- you know, it's, it's, it's the details of, of the headings even, whatever. But, like, I...

136
00:23:21.808 --> 00:23:31.408
You know, you, you have to think about it in terms of visual texture. The information doesn't matter if it's not attractive enough for people to stick around and consume it. Yeah.

137
00:23:31.468 --> 00:23:38.798
That's why I think so many magazine editors m- keep their jobs, because... And I mean, like, the, the ones from the '90s and the early 2000s. Mm-hmm.

138
00:23:39.108 --> 00:23:51.468
I think that when you, uh, think visually and you think of the story as a full package, that's why Janice Min has a great job. That's why Greig Carter is still working. Ti- uh, Tina Brown is still doing her...

139
00:23:51.498 --> 00:24:01.848
I mean, she's doing Substack, but I think she was on a podcast recently talking about she just needs Substack to come to her and, and meet her somewhere with the visual identity of Substack.

140
00:24:01.868 --> 00:24:10.558
I think it really frustrates her as I'm paraphrasing. Good luck, Tina. Yeah. That was on the, the Mixed Signals seminar podcast. Oh, shit. Yeah. Great. We got Mixed Signals hive here. Yeah. I'm... I, I...

141
00:24:10.588 --> 00:24:20.908
It's a terrific podcast. They, they've- Yeah, it's great... they've really, like, jumped ahead of a lot of pl- a lot of media podcasts, um, with a great, with a great mix of stories. Um, but I think that that's like...

142
00:24:20.928 --> 00:24:32.868
There's... Like, consumers are having changed, like, full stop. They want every element to be premium and cool. Mm-hmm. And- Yeah... and, and I, I think Dirt... I, I mean, I, I really...

143
00:24:32.888 --> 00:24:37.768
When you say you think do Canva, I... Like, Dirt has a visual identity to me.

144
00:24:37.828 --> 00:24:48.068
I mean, it's fully internet, uh, online first, obviously, but you guys are, are clever, and you have a lot of humor with, with your lead illos and with, you know, even for the screenshot.

145
00:24:48.088 --> 00:24:58.237
And, like, you have to do it that way. You just can't just throw up. I- it's why I literally throw up. I am gonna throw up when I think about- [laughs]... some of [laughs] the way this art is literally thrown up.

146
00:24:58.328 --> 00:25:09.020
Like, uh, like the, like the patterned background with the bad Zillow art. Like, that's fucking-So bad. I'm, I'm-- I can't believe that still works on the internet. Yeah.

147
00:25:09.140 --> 00:25:15.680
I, I do think we have a distinct visual identity, and it-- and I like to think it's not just that, like, Daisy touched it at some point.

148
00:25:16.060 --> 00:25:30.520
Um, and I do, like, when I was working together with Walden, we would often align on the same idea of, like, when he wrote about why the price of eggs is such a sight for political paranoia and projection.

149
00:25:31.100 --> 00:25:40.020
We were both like, "This needs an illustration." I think we texted each other at the same time, like- [chuckles]... broken egg. Um [laughs] you know? Yeah. So, uh, and that's what we ended up doing.

150
00:25:40.180 --> 00:25:50.380
But I -- like, Beehive recently, um, just changed the way that you, you do your design build. Like, all of the capabilities are the same, but they changed it a little bit.

151
00:25:50.840 --> 00:26:04.670
And in the course of migrating our newsletter, some of our presets got changed. And the one that I noticed was actually the angle of the corner on our quotes, on our block quotes. Mm-hmm.

152
00:26:05.369 --> 00:26:19.090
And it was, like, a breakthrough moment for me because I've never been so... I am definitely aesthetically inclined. I don't always focus on details like kerning or- Mm-hmm... um, you know, the angle of the corner.

153
00:26:19.260 --> 00:26:25.960
But I was like, "I've looked at this every day for the last- [laughs]... two years," basically. I was like, "Something is wrong."

154
00:26:26.080 --> 00:26:37.630
[laughs] And I, like, screenshot both of the corners, and I'm comparing them, and I'm showing Kat. I'm like, "Do you see this?" [laughs] So we sent it to them, and they, um, they regressed us to the old, uh- Oh...

155
00:26:37.720 --> 00:26:43.230
system for a little bit so we could write down all of our presets, and then they migrated us. And now it's working beautifully, and I think- Very cool...

156
00:26:43.240 --> 00:26:56.580
it's a great example of, like, the relationship that you want with, um, your platform provider. But it's so funny that, that, like, it-it's, it's the angle of the corners, you know? Mm-hmm.

157
00:26:56.930 --> 00:27:05.840
And, um, you know, it plays into everything. We just published a piece in Prune, um, by Sam Wells, and Sam wrote to me and said, "I'm not a writer. I haven't published before.

158
00:27:05.880 --> 00:27:20.860
I'm a woodworker, but I have this idea on, uh, to write about the legacy of Thomas Moser and his relationship to Shaker design and scale." And w- you know, what is Shaker design? All corners, all joinery.

159
00:27:21.260 --> 00:27:41.060
And so I think, like, all of these things that don't seem related and seem like they must fall in the binary between offline and online aesthetics, it's all part of the same conversation that we're having with our readers about, like, the world that we want to build for them and the world that we all, like, ultimately want to inhabit.

160
00:27:41.660 --> 00:27:48.980
So we were talking a little bit before this about the relationship between, uh, a written product and an audio product. Mm-hmm.

161
00:27:49.160 --> 00:27:58.940
Um, Matt, what is the relationship between Taste as a publication and This Is Taste as a podcast, and how has that changed over the last, you know, almost a decade?

162
00:27:59.280 --> 00:28:12.340
Really great question and, and we are about a decade old, and we didn't have a podcast when we launched in 2017. Uh, we, we soon launched one in '18, and it was a, a, a little bit of a more... It was a more minimal show.

163
00:28:12.400 --> 00:28:22.910
We did once a week. We were really focused on doing four to five features a, a week at that point. Uh, we certainly have flipped it, uh, in the past two years.

164
00:28:23.689 --> 00:28:31.219
Uh, and that's simply because we are seeing tremendous interest engagement, uh, from our podcast.

165
00:28:31.880 --> 00:28:41.880
And for us, you know, here at Penguin Random House, which is the parent company of Taste, uh, Crown Publishing Group, we really want, uh, engagement with what we're writing.

166
00:28:41.940 --> 00:28:49.440
You know, we, we aren't about just throwing shit up, and, and I, I really wanted to come to where the audience was at.

167
00:28:49.500 --> 00:28:57.740
And looking at, you know, just the Spotify numbers, and Apple is in a black box, as you know, so we don't know our Apple audience at all.

168
00:28:57.760 --> 00:29:08.340
But looking at Spotify, which is about, you know, 15% of our audience, you know, our completion rate is, is really great. Like, we, we have 50%, 60% go into the last quarter of the pod.

169
00:29:09.020 --> 00:29:16.680
And that all is to say, like, we just want people to engage with what we're doing here at Taste, which is covering the, the, the culture of food, frankly. And

170
00:29:17.620 --> 00:29:30.600
we just felt like we needed to scale back our features, so now we're doing one big feature a week plus two newsletters, and every other week, we're publishing a terrific, uh, cooking column from Zola Gregory.

171
00:29:31.220 --> 00:29:40.200
And w- with the, with the added time and resources away from the features, we're in the pod world, and- Mm... we're publishing three to four podcasts a week, which is, uh- Which is insane.

172
00:29:40.360 --> 00:29:53.240
It's a high metabolism pod, but it is insane, and Clayton, our terrific lead producer, is, is to credit to, like, keep up with the pace of the editing, and I, I really commend Clayton for just keeping up with it.

173
00:29:53.280 --> 00:30:05.760
And for us, it's i- I think the always-on pod is, is where we need to be right now. We have tremendous download dra- traffic, and we have a lot of partnerships built around our, our audience.

174
00:30:06.220 --> 00:30:18.400
But really for us, it's mostly we wanna commit full episodes to people who may be getting the C segment or D segment or not even booked on other shows in our cohort. We just wanna give them the space.

175
00:30:18.460 --> 00:30:24.660
So we give our audience the choice. Do you wanna do four hours with, with This Is Taste a week, or do you wanna dip in and do one?

176
00:30:25.340 --> 00:30:31.440
Um, we find a lot of l- uh, listeners are somewhere in between and doing a couple episodes a week. But it was just our...

177
00:30:31.560 --> 00:30:41.579
It's kind of our editorial strategy to, like, think about each episode as, uh, a real portrait of the guest. Uh, and then we have other segments. You know, Liza and I like to catch up for our Three Things segment.

178
00:30:42.040 --> 00:30:49.160
We'll have a lot of journalists on, and we just launched- Food writers talking about food writing. Yeah, we got this YouTube show that has been really fun, and we're trying to really, uh...

179
00:30:49.180 --> 00:30:53.100
We, we don't do a lot of, like, full episodes on YouTube. We, we do mostly social clips.

180
00:30:53.500 --> 00:31:02.440
But we wanted our, our only, like, full episode show to be f- talking about the industry, talking about work, like what you do on, on your show, on your podcast.

181
00:31:02.500 --> 00:31:15.302
You talk about a lot of the, the, the work in the, in the, in the, in the industry, and we wanted to do that, but featuring, um, writers we love. So-We talk about money. I, you know, I- Yeah... I think people like that.

182
00:31:15.472 --> 00:31:29.932
I met somebody recently, um, in the publishing industry, and they were like, "Can I ask you a rude question?" [laughs] And I was like, "Yeah." And they just wanted to talk about money in a real way.

183
00:31:30.012 --> 00:31:43.272
Like, basically, how do you make this work? And that was a lot of our conversation with Sarah Leonard recently of Lux Magazine. Yeah. Um, you know, we're, we're doing an award together, uh, for the best hybrid, um,

184
00:31:44.352 --> 00:31:56.052
criticism personal essay about work, and I'm, I'm actually really hoping we'll get some strong submissions about the food industry, um, because I think that those critiques are really fun to read. Um,

185
00:31:57.352 --> 00:32:12.912
and yeah, I think there is an appetite for real conversations about how the sausage gets made. This is the second time using a version of that phrase- Into it... on this very day. Um, but what are like... Okay, obviously

186
00:32:13.992 --> 00:32:23.032
money, distribution, dwindling number of places to do text criticism, all of these things are important topics of conversation ongoing.

187
00:32:23.472 --> 00:32:33.852
But what are some other themes that you're tracking, both across various episodes of the podcast or sort of like threads that are currently running between the features- Yeah...

188
00:32:33.872 --> 00:32:40.692
you know, that, that you're selecting, and, um, and the podcast- Great question... and the topics.

189
00:32:41.172 --> 00:32:55.132
Well, w- money definitely is at the center of our podcast, and we talk about money a lot, and, uh, this can, this plays out in many different forms. We have a lot of, uh, chefs and operators, uh, of, of various renown.

190
00:32:55.172 --> 00:33:01.512
You know, the biggest, uh, you know, Jamie Oliver was just talking about money recently, and we have, you know, chefs who just operate one restaurant in New York.

191
00:33:01.562 --> 00:33:27.212
And we're always talking about money because right now the restaurant industry is at, at a great inflection point, to use a cliche, but it really is, where, um, the dining, uh, the diners, really the, the, the ethic of the diner and the, the real, uh, behavior of the diner is changing, where these prices that we see on restaurant menus, not just in New York or LA, but in all cities, are eye-popping, eye-watering.

192
00:33:27.292 --> 00:33:37.542
Irrational hospitality, as, uh- [laughs]... we would say. Irrational hospitality. Like Colin Nagy on the pod. I love Colin. I love Witty. That is a, that is a great, great, great, great subject.

193
00:33:37.572 --> 00:33:46.892
Well, you know, I feel like every culture, every podcast is, is about money, except for podcasts that are supposed to be about money, and they just- [laughs]... end up being about restaurants. [laughs] You know? Like...

194
00:33:47.532 --> 00:33:55.532
[laughs] Yeah. I mean, the, I mean, we, we talk about restaurant culture because it's on all, all the great podcasts. I mean, how many times does How Long Gone talk about restaurants? Yeah. Hell yeah.

195
00:33:55.682 --> 00:33:58.832
It's literally every 40 sec- Cry. The most famous restaurant podcast there is.

196
00:33:58.932 --> 00:34:04.832
It really is, and I've had both Jason and Chris on the show, and Jason's written for Taste, and they have really sharp minds about the industry and trend.

197
00:34:05.132 --> 00:34:11.052
But we talk about money because the diners are seeing these eye-watering prices and they're saying, "Are we getting ripped off? Is this just...

198
00:34:11.062 --> 00:34:23.112
" But then we talk to, like, Camilla Marcus, who ran Westbourne in New York for years, this really progressive thought leader in the industry. Uh, she worked at ROAR, which was a, a, a, an alliance for industry workers.

199
00:34:23.402 --> 00:34:25.612
And you know, we talked about payroll tax. Mm.

200
00:34:25.692 --> 00:34:44.792
And how payroll tax, that 30% tax that's added to every dollar that you, you, you spend on labor, um, is a flat tax that is being taxed for anybody in New York, whether, whether, whether you run a watch store with two employees or a restaurant with 77 employees.

201
00:34:45.332 --> 00:34:54.172
And the fact that, um, the watch store has to pay the same tax rate for their employees versus the restaurants. And you know, Camilla had a very simple, simple solution.

202
00:34:54.672 --> 00:35:05.752
It's instead of 30%, let's, let's make it 10%, and the money that's saved from the, the 20% for payroll tax, allow the restaurant to invest that back into their, into their employees, into the payroll.

203
00:35:06.412 --> 00:35:12.892
Um, so we talk, uh, a- a- and for benefits and for paid time off and all the things we talk about. So we talk about that a lot on the show.

204
00:35:13.292 --> 00:35:24.682
We also talk a little bit about the, the way that restaurants are, are, are cool and not cool, and like the way neighborhoods are cool and not cool, and to use broad strokes.

205
00:35:24.792 --> 00:35:37.632
But I love that we can talk about the changing tastes of diners in like cities like New York and LA, and how that will trickle down effectively to the rest of the country, uh, eventually.

206
00:35:37.772 --> 00:35:52.852
So we, we talk about how QSR restaurants may be dead right now, but, uh, you know, restaurants that are special occasion restaurants, people are thr- are g- flocking there for a lot of reasons, cap- you know, cultural capital or just people are spending less and spending better.

207
00:35:53.342 --> 00:36:01.832
Mm-hmm. So these are, these are themes we're always... Restaurants are always at the, the center of what we're talking about it seems. This is... I don't know if this is just a personal tr- [laughs] trend in my life.

208
00:36:02.152 --> 00:36:05.162
Yeah. But, uh, in the same way that I've stopped...

209
00:36:05.192 --> 00:36:13.472
When I say I've stopped, you know, reading Eater, that's also more of a proxy for like I've stopped trying to stay up to date on like, oh, what are all the new restaurants opening in New York, right?

210
00:36:13.532 --> 00:36:21.372
I'm, and I'm definitely somebody among my friends where it's like, "Oh, Francis, I'm going out in this neighborhood tonight. Like, where should I go?" And I'm like, you know, "Here's five ideas."

211
00:36:21.462 --> 00:36:27.562
[laughs] But I'm kind of having less of those ideas. I'm, I'm becoming more interested in like I just wanna go... I live in Ridgewood.

212
00:36:27.632 --> 00:36:37.412
I just wanna go to like the few local restaurants that I know I can get into, and I don't have to make a reservation, and I don't have to think two weeks in advance I wanna go out to dinner here.

213
00:36:37.452 --> 00:36:43.522
Which for the past couple years I, I was more like, "Okay, I'm gonna, you know, I wanna eat at Bonnie's, so three weeks- Yeah...

214
00:36:43.532 --> 00:36:54.532
before the day I'm gonna go, I'm gonna set an alarm at 10:00 AM and I'm gonna get that reservation." Yeah. But I, I just kind of... I mean, I love going out to eat, and I will go every weekend pretty much, uh, or more.

215
00:36:54.832 --> 00:37:08.522
But, um, yeah, I'm kind of burnt out on, on like how much there is. Yeah. But that might just be a personal- Yeah, I'm not trying to have a cool restaurant experience right now. [laughs] You mean cool- I'm not...

216
00:37:08.552 --> 00:37:16.072
like you're not trying to go to like the, the new, the new dame or the, you know, the, et cetera kind of- Provêta... the, yeah, exactly. A great restaurant I've heard.

217
00:37:16.092 --> 00:37:27.826
I'm not, I'm not craving to go there myself.Not even on my radar. You know, the, I think the last restaurant that I saw recommended by somebody and went because I saw it be recommended was, um, [lips smack]

218
00:37:27.896 --> 00:37:35.766
uh, Jason Diamond recommended Daphne's. Yeah. And I went and had a nice time. Um, but Francis and I have been talking about, um,

219
00:37:37.256 --> 00:37:47.016
this sort of like reversion to the classics, and is it because I'm, I'm getting older, I'm growing up, I'm in search... Like, novelty doesn't mean as much to me. I'd rather have consistency.

220
00:37:47.316 --> 00:37:53.216
I don't have real tolerance for playing the reservation game or, God forbid, waiting online to get in somewhere.

221
00:37:53.316 --> 00:38:04.536
Um, or is it, does it sort of represent something about the zeitgeist and fatigue with microtrends that's now carrying over to culinary microtrends as well? Absolutely.

222
00:38:04.756 --> 00:38:14.036
Uh, I think it's, the exhaustion is real when it comes to following the, the new and noteworthy restaurants. Mm-hmm. And I think there's also d- it's unproven.

223
00:38:14.076 --> 00:38:28.856
I think savvy diners, people who've lived in New York for some time know that the first six months of a restaurant can be extremely shaky, and what you don't want is to go to a restaurant on week three and, and really be disappointed from the, from the get-go.

224
00:38:28.896 --> 00:38:38.616
If it's like you're seated 20 minutes late, or they ignore you at the, at the table. And I think, like, there's a little bit of that creeping in when we're looking at all these new restaurants.

225
00:38:38.676 --> 00:38:49.376
We're thinking about every single bad restaurant experience we had at brand-new restaurants, and we're like- Mm... just feeling, feeling that anxiety. And I think what we should be doing is both.

226
00:38:49.696 --> 00:38:56.636
I think we do need to support new restaurants. Obviously, it's important to go out and, and check out the new places, and, and, and be a, a great guest.

227
00:38:56.696 --> 00:39:06.116
But we have had this wonderful ongoing dialogue with Michael McCarty from Michael's. You know, he's been running these restaurants in New York and LA since 1978.

228
00:39:06.776 --> 00:39:17.436
And w- I asked him straight up, like, how do you, how do you, uh, beco- how do you support a, a restaurant that's had some, some heritage, that's there for... And he's like, "Just go a lot."

229
00:39:17.516 --> 00:39:27.665
[laughs] A- and I think it's... I think about that all the time. I think about, like, places. I'm just gonna name some names. Like, think about, like, French Louis in Brooklyn. I think about Thai Diner. Mm.

230
00:39:27.816 --> 00:39:31.736
I think about places in Koreatown, like Hanbat, Choryang.

231
00:39:32.736 --> 00:39:44.856
And like, these are places that aren't being written about really that much, and these are places I just love going to because they're absolutely great restaurants that have five, seven, 10 years on them.

232
00:39:45.326 --> 00:39:55.576
They're hurting, some of these. Maybe not those places that I mentioned, but places that are at, like, places that are at year one and year two that aren't gonna get into Grub Street as much.

233
00:39:56.036 --> 00:40:00.036
Um, they really need your support. So if you think back, I, I still use Swarm,

234
00:40:00.976 --> 00:40:08.276
which I fucking love, so I look back at my swarm, and I always look back a couple years, and I'm like, "Where did I go over the past couple years?"

235
00:40:08.846 --> 00:40:13.176
And then when I'm thinking about where I wanna meet friends or just to have a, have a drink or something with a- Mm...

236
00:40:13.256 --> 00:40:24.216
with a catch-up, I'm like, I wanna go to the places that I know that I'm gonna get a great experience, and maybe they need my support more than ever. What do you think about this trend of not having physical space?

237
00:40:24.316 --> 00:40:37.556
I don't mean like a ghost kitchen. Uh, but a restaurant that doesn't have physical space but only exists as a pop-up, and I'm thinking of Shy's Burgers, for example. Um- Or, uh, Thai- Make Thai? Like- Yeah. Right? Yeah.

238
00:40:37.976 --> 00:40:45.936
I mean, I mean, Haz was, was a great example- [sighs]... of that pivot, right? Yeah. Going from pop-up only to physical space. So what do I think?

239
00:40:46.016 --> 00:40:58.456
I think that having, knowing labor costs, knowing the cost of real estate in New York, I'm, I'm such a fan of, of a restaurant, of chefs who wanna put themselves out there in a pop-up setting.

240
00:40:58.516 --> 00:41:05.636
Eliza- Can I say something potentially controversial? Yeah, please. Uh, uh- The pop-up is sort of the newsletter of restaurants. I like it. [laughs] I like it.

241
00:41:05.876 --> 00:41:14.826
So do you mean you subscribe for, like, a couple weeks, then you unsubscribe? Is that the- No... cognate? I just mean it's like, it's direct, but it's also, um,

242
00:41:16.136 --> 00:41:25.516
it, it's a little bit more free-floating than the restaurant, which is a little bit like a, a res- a website, a.com website. It's exciting. I think it's... The i- the newsletters excite me.

243
00:41:25.556 --> 00:41:33.816
When I get Dirt, I'm just excited. Mm-hmm. And I think when I see a pop-up... You know, Eliza, uh, talks a lot about the pop-ups around New York. She's a big fan of them. She supports them.

244
00:41:34.056 --> 00:41:42.566
I think she has a lot of empathy and just supports. And Redora in Brooklyn does a lot of pop-ups that- Mm-hmm... show, um, incredible talent.

245
00:41:42.676 --> 00:41:54.176
My, my biggest issue with pop-ups is that literally it's so inconsistent if it's good or bad. Mm-hmm. And you have to kind of go in with the... It's like a contract that this might not be the most polished cuisine.

246
00:41:54.896 --> 00:42:04.136
It certainly won't be, on a service point, be that exceptional because how could you run a restaurant and make it exceptional on the service side after being open for 30 minutes?

247
00:42:04.496 --> 00:42:17.396
[laughs] But on the flip side, it shows incredibly, uh, I would say exciting, uh, cuisines that maybe don't have brick-and-mortars, and you're supporting, you're literally putting money into the hands of somebody for the work they're doing.

248
00:42:17.456 --> 00:42:23.626
It's, like, such a direct payment when you're doing a pop-up, and it's, like, maybe helping them pay rent for that week. Mm.

249
00:42:23.656 --> 00:42:31.736
It might be helping them invest in a brick-and-mortar where they need to pay that fi- $30,000 key money that they haven't been able to figure out.

250
00:42:32.316 --> 00:42:42.936
So I think it's, like, really when you're supporting pop-ups, it's not really about the food, and even, and the m- and the cost of a pop-up too, it could be a little higher than you're used to paying if it's, like, a fixed menu.

251
00:42:43.016 --> 00:42:53.276
I would say, like, understand that you're in contract with that, with that pop-up chef, that you're helping support them like a, like a Patreon kind of model. Mm. That makes complete sense.

252
00:42:53.456 --> 00:43:03.616
It's like the, yeah, yeah, you want the, you want the food or maybe you wanna read the, the newsletter, you wanna listen to the episode of the podcast, but it's more of, like, the community. It's this, like, social...

253
00:43:03.636 --> 00:43:15.975
It's about the social fabric at that point- Yeah... in a way that's more appealing than when you're eating at, like, you know, X new big money restaurant backed by X millions of dollars to be, you know, in a hotspot.

254
00:43:16.376 --> 00:43:24.916
Have you guys been to Bridges yet, either of you? 'Cause I have not. No, but that's exactly what I was thinking about [laughs] as I was saying that. [laughs] I was like, what are you talking about? I have not been, no.

255
00:43:25.016 --> 00:43:35.618
Uh, I did read... There was, um, I read-Okay, speaking of a newsletter that I, I don't currently pay for, Emily Sundberg's Feed Me, there was before the fold, I did read, [chuckles] I do read it- [chuckles]...

256
00:43:35.628 --> 00:43:44.788
but it's, I get stopped at the- Yeah... at the paywall. Um, but she was quoting Eddie Huang in his, uh, h- his new venture with Places, which is some app.

257
00:43:45.048 --> 00:44:00.607
Anyways, but he had this good line about, like, there's, there's a difference between a hot neighborhood and a hot block, and everybody on the hot block is, like, an orange wine-seeking Resy vampire there to, to drink orange wine bef- before the, before dawn.

258
00:44:00.688 --> 00:44:13.348
But he was talking about bridges. He's, uh, one of our, our finest- Mm... uh, writers in the food space and food writing, and I love that Eddie has a really robust Substack now, and his, his podcast is a lot of fun.

259
00:44:13.408 --> 00:44:26.548
So true. I think, uh, you get these blocks that become, um, absolutely inundated with, with the hype and the lines, uh, and it doesn't define, um, a res- a, a neighborhood.

260
00:44:26.588 --> 00:44:39.178
Um, and certainly it doesn't define, uh, that era, that time. It just is what's happening in the w- in the culture. Yeah. Mm-hmm. I think I lived in, like, Clinton Hill/Fort Greene.

261
00:44:39.218 --> 00:44:46.348
I lived in Clinton Hill/Fort Greene, well, around 2017, and a little bit of that was happening, like, on Fulton Street.

262
00:44:46.408 --> 00:44:59.208
Um, but it comes in waves, obviously, and I think, uh, I, I think, I mean, like a good meal, the pacing of those openings depends on whether it's going to be a net positive or a net negative for the block.

263
00:44:59.348 --> 00:45:07.868
So much choice, and you got those... You have that landlord, you know, charging you that, that rate every week and, or every month, and it, those, those, those bills come very quickly.

264
00:45:07.908 --> 00:45:13.228
So that's why, back to my original point, look back at the restaurants you loved over the past 18 months.

265
00:45:13.828 --> 00:45:21.648
If you're of a, if you're a list maker, a Google Map maker, look back, just look back at the data that you've created around your restaurant-going. It could be literally your photos.

266
00:45:21.668 --> 00:45:27.678
Just look at your photos, and, and just remember the places that you liked two years ago. Mm-hmm. Just go there.

267
00:45:27.708 --> 00:45:33.148
Like, support those, 'cause those are the places that maybe were hot for a second, but then they may be struggling.

268
00:45:33.208 --> 00:45:40.268
And, and if you had a good experience the first time, chances are your experience the second time is gonna be, gonna be positive. This is where- This is- Yeah...

269
00:45:40.308 --> 00:45:47.358
so this is maybe, like, a, you know, recession indicator type of moment, but the way you're talking about this also makes me think o- of media and the idea of evergreen content, right? Yeah.

270
00:45:47.368 --> 00:45:53.548
And the idea that you, you don't need to be dumping so much resources into creating the new thing every week, every week.

271
00:45:53.588 --> 00:46:04.688
Like, you've got that great article from three months ago, six months ago, five years ago that's sitting there that people would still be interested in, that people would reread even if they've already read it because it's been so long.

272
00:46:04.868 --> 00:46:13.107
Yeah. And, like, it's... And I think that's something people forget, and that's hard to, like, "Well, how do we make this fresh? How do we get it out there again?"

273
00:46:13.208 --> 00:46:29.778
Um, but the, yeah, this idea of, like, evergreen restaurants as a r- or, or, like, older restaurants as the foundation for, for series, for whether it's like, whether it's a Taste, whether it's a Grub Street, whether it's, you know, any of these, these, uh, Instagram reel creators.

274
00:46:29.988 --> 00:46:51.768
I wonder, I feel like that is something that it, it's, it's one of those ideas that isn't an original idea by any means, but it's, like, something that more people are going to arrive at in this moment of, especially of, like, you know, tightening the purse strings, um, more food media about longtime institutions re- Oh, yeah.

275
00:46:51.908 --> 00:46:55.768
Reimagining. Great point, Francis. I think you, you definitely wanna cover the evergreen.

276
00:46:55.858 --> 00:47:02.248
I like, I like the comparison because I think we, we surface some of our older stories because we do write a lot of stories that are evergreen.

277
00:47:02.348 --> 00:47:18.208
And I think it's in this time of great news cycles, not just, uh, politically, but on the tech side, just so much news cycle content is being consumed that it's nice to surface a story, even if the byline says 2019, it still has a lot of value to our readers.

278
00:47:18.248 --> 00:47:32.868
And we, in our Friday newsletter, which we, we put out, um, as kind of a digest of, of the week in writing and, and some audio, we just, we like to surface older stories from publications because, yes, there's lots of value there.

279
00:47:32.898 --> 00:47:41.268
It doesn't need to be the new shiny toy for these types of, these types of reporting. And I love the tie back to the idea that a restaurant doesn't have to be the shiny new toy.

280
00:47:41.288 --> 00:47:51.948
It can be an absolute, you know, just a classic place and really deliver. I have way... So I just remembered this, um, great data point from this newsletter I like, Push to Talk.

281
00:47:52.488 --> 00:47:57.108
Uh, this guy, Ryan Rigby, he writes about the video game industry, which I, you know, played a lot of video games when I was younger.

282
00:47:57.148 --> 00:48:01.928
I barely do anymore, but his newsletter is one of my favorites because he's so smart and, like, the, the stories he finds.

283
00:48:02.028 --> 00:48:07.328
So the title of this one, it's from a few months ago, from September actually, Are Old Games Killing New Games?

284
00:48:07.788 --> 00:48:21.848
And he has this graph here that, um, in 2023, 61% of all playtime on video games was spent on games that had been released over six years previously. Wow.

285
00:48:22.108 --> 00:48:37.318
And in 2023, just five games, most of them released over a decade ago, together accounted for more playtime than every game released in 2022 and 2023 combined. Wow. That's stunning. I mean, it, it...

286
00:48:37.408 --> 00:48:43.238
I don't know the game industry one bit, uh, except for The Last of Us, which shouts what a show. Uh, I wanna play this game.

287
00:48:43.467 --> 00:48:57.088
[chuckles] But, um, I think there's something to do with just when a story or a restaurant has some seasoning on it- Mm-hmm... has some time, uh- Cast iron pan. Well said, Daisy. You...

288
00:48:57.268 --> 00:49:07.248
That's why this is a great podcast. [chuckles] Those lines tying it together. A well-seasoned cast iron pan. For the record, I do use soap, but that's for another podcast. [chuckles] Controversial.

289
00:49:07.428 --> 00:49:11.408
Because like list- I use, uh, steel wool. Yeah, steel wool is the way to go. I, I sometimes I, I pull that out.

290
00:49:11.468 --> 00:49:22.018
But I just think, like, having a little bit of time, um, be it a video game, be it a, a restaurant, be it a, a great feature, um, I think that you're gonna obviously find new audience too.

291
00:49:22.088 --> 00:49:29.848
Remember, like, old restaurants are new to cert somebody. New, new, old stories are new to somebody. So they may have just found your publication.

292
00:49:29.868 --> 00:49:38.396
They may have just found that neighborhood and moved there, and like, "Let's, let's try out some of the, the local places."Yeah, I'm trying to do a better job with that actually. I, um...

293
00:49:38.456 --> 00:49:43.776
Somebody said to me, something to me over the weekend about, um, froyo being a recession indicator.

294
00:49:43.916 --> 00:49:50.936
[laughs] And I remembered we had a piece about that from last year called Froyo Monium, and I was like, "Ah, I think it's ready. It's time to dust that off."

295
00:49:51.056 --> 00:50:03.716
But I'm, I'm curious, uh, whether you're seeing a bit of a froyo revival right now. I walked by Tasty Delight recently. There still is one on the Upper East Side, and- Mm... I was like, "I gotta fucking go there."

296
00:50:03.756 --> 00:50:14.906
Yeah, I think froyo is definitely gonna be a ressa- Mm... is a recession indicator. I think, uh, I wish 16 Handles had survived. I still have a really, really, really soft spot in my heart for 16 Handles. Mm.

297
00:50:14.966 --> 00:50:27.476
Um- Well, I'm sure there are, like, 16 Handles T-shirts are on Poshmark. Oh. Marked vintage. That's a great gift idea. Vintage Y2K inspired. $23. But, you know, d- do you g- Daisy and, and Francis, do you guys...

298
00:50:27.616 --> 00:50:31.866
I feel like there's a little pressure that we put on ourselves when you, when you post an old byline.

299
00:50:32.196 --> 00:50:39.176
You said dusting off as, as a joking, but there's almost, like, a pride thing how we, like, only need to be doing new stuff- Yeah... all the time.

300
00:50:39.235 --> 00:50:49.216
Which I think is a, a mistake, 'cause I think- I've never put pressure on myself in my life, so- I appreciate-... I can't speak to that... that. I, I just think we internalize, like, am I being lazy?

301
00:50:49.316 --> 00:50:57.516
Am I being less ambitious to, like, resurface old content, big air quotes there- Mm-hmm... using content in which I've only used. No, I, I mean, you're right.

302
00:50:57.676 --> 00:51:07.406
I think, though, like, I, I, f- I saw a great quote from Tyler the Creator recently. He was like, "I'm still promoting the thing that I... Like, the album I published a year ago, and I'm gonna keep promoting it- Yeah...

303
00:51:07.426 --> 00:51:17.576
for a year. Like, why would I s- I put, like, years of work into that. Why would I stop?" And maybe, you know, in an article you're not necessarily putting in years of work, but you're still putting in that high scale.

304
00:51:17.746 --> 00:51:27.726
And I mean, I'm guilty of this too. Like, I will promote a thing for twice over a week, and then, and then I kinda move on, and I forget to go back. But you kind of just forget it's there. But, uh...

305
00:51:27.756 --> 00:51:38.736
Or, like, in marketing, like at my last job, we always talked about, like, you know, z- 90% of the people that you w- 99% of the people that you want to see this thing aren't gonna see it the first time.

306
00:51:38.816 --> 00:51:48.526
80% of them aren't gonna see it the second time, and so on and so on. Mm-hmm. So, like, you're not n- like, you're not gonna alienate people by posting it 5, 10 times, promoting it 20 times, right?

307
00:51:48.576 --> 00:51:59.045
Like, you're just actually gonna reach a higher saturation of your potential audience. Yeah, that- That's exactly it. Yeah. That's exactly it. I mean, I, um, was doing...

308
00:51:59.116 --> 00:52:11.416
going through our, our survey last night for Blank where we asked people what's the best book you read last year. Um, and one book that came up a lot, I, I did not say how often a book came up when I ran the results.

309
00:52:11.556 --> 00:52:21.146
I just said, "This is every book mentioned." Um, but there's a book called, I believe it's God of the Woods. Yeah, by Liz Moore. Came up a lot. Mm-hmm.

310
00:52:21.296 --> 00:52:25.116
And I remember seeing it when it first came out and saying, "I'd really like to read that."

311
00:52:25.286 --> 00:52:30.836
And, um, it took seeing it, like, three times in the survey to be like, "I'm definitely gonna read that in the next couple months."

312
00:52:31.396 --> 00:52:42.496
And this is a conversation that I've had with publishers when they wanna advertise in Dirt, which is what are your expectations? Because we expect to be one of six mentions that cause somebody to convert.

313
00:52:42.536 --> 00:52:55.626
You know, do you need that to see them convert off our newsletter specifically to feel like this has been a success, or do you have other ways of, um, counting this exposure, uh, as, you know, fulfilling your KPIs?

314
00:52:55.916 --> 00:52:59.656
Um, because we... I don't wanna make any guarantees around- Yeah... conversions.

315
00:52:59.736 --> 00:53:12.356
But I can guarantee if somebody sees it in Dirt and then they see somebody tweet about it later, that we will be a crucial node in that person eventually buying that book, because that's how I think, and that's my relationship to books.

316
00:53:12.436 --> 00:53:22.166
Yeah. Did you guys read The Most by Jessica Anthony? Mm, I don't- No... even know it. I just got, I... We... I'm sorry this is a tangent, 'cause I totally agree that connecting the dots is part of- [laughs]...

317
00:53:22.176 --> 00:53:30.646
the way we think about our partnerships as well. Like, we're not gonna... It's not, like, CTA link track data and, like, you know, conversion of sales.

318
00:53:30.756 --> 00:53:42.206
Um, it's about working with a brand that you really like, uh, a media brand, and that the audience is quality, right? It's brand safe- Mm-hmm... and quality. But The Most is amazing. It's a novella. It's like 130 pages.

319
00:53:42.216 --> 00:53:56.536
It's... The, the logline is basically 1957, uh, housewife, uh, alcoholic husband, um, enters the pool and doesn't wanna leave in her apartment complex. And w- Oh, we did an interview with her. Oh, cool.

320
00:53:56.666 --> 00:54:04.106
[laughs] There you go. There you go. I didn't say I'd never heard of it. Flex, flex. [laughs] Did I say I'd never heard of it? I don't know. Flex. Flex out. Um, I have- Oh...

321
00:54:04.106 --> 00:54:11.246
heard of The Most, and we did cover it in the newsletter. Thank you very much. It's, it's in paperback now, and, like, we, we- Great cover... great cover. I think putting a pool on the cover- Oh...

322
00:54:11.256 --> 00:54:18.836
I don't know if this is, like, the David Hockney effect, but my eye immediately goes to it if there's a swimming pool. It's... And, like- It's cool. Look... yeah. The, we read the...

323
00:54:18.956 --> 00:54:29.156
I read this, my wife read it, our friend read it, and there's eighth grade, uh, their eight-son in eighth grade read it in the weekend. We, like, passed it around. Mm. It's a, it's a really quick read. So great.

324
00:54:29.656 --> 00:54:37.436
So- Love a quick read... I was gonna say, Daisy, with... I mean, we're, we're talking about all this evergreen content, et cetera. Like, one of the best examples of this is how, how much you've promoted Bad Waitress.

325
00:54:37.516 --> 00:54:45.586
That's, like- Oh... the Dirt story, and I feel like you guys post about it, like, every, every other month or something. And it's- Mm... and there's no reason not...

326
00:54:45.656 --> 00:54:50.906
I mean, I've only read it once, to be honest, but, like, every time I see it, I'm like- Read it again... "Yeah, that was a really good story." [laughs] Read it this afternoon. Yeah.

327
00:54:50.916 --> 00:55:01.656
What's the Bad Waitress, um, author update? Is there, uh, is there anything happening? I love that piece so much. What do you mean? Like- What's she up to? I feel like there's, like, a- Is Becca still a bad waitress?

328
00:55:01.796 --> 00:55:08.636
[laughs] No, no, sorry. Rebecca. I didn't, I couldn't remember her name 'cause we'd emailed before. I mean, I feel like there's- Wait, are you, when are you having her on your podcast? Oh yeah, we talked about that.

329
00:55:08.666 --> 00:55:17.296
Uh- You should have her come on to talk about the Anthony Bourdain biopic, which she wro- also wrote about for us. She's- Yes... she's the person whose opinion I would trust the most on that. Mm.

330
00:55:17.356 --> 00:55:22.276
Say her last name just so I remember- Schuh... and so everyone... Schuh, okay. S-C-H- All right... U-H.

331
00:55:22.756 --> 00:55:31.016
Ve- that's m- for plug to her on the podcast, but also so I remember to, to reach back and, uh, and, and talk about that incredible piece. I think Bad Waitress...

332
00:55:31.576 --> 00:55:39.056
Well, okay, it's always, it was always gonna be worth talking about because it's well-written, but it is only becoming more relevant over time.

333
00:55:39.096 --> 00:55:50.010
Yeah.Um, you know, it's as relevant as it's ever been, so Um, one thing I really wanna talk about before we get to the end here, Daisy, we, we, we were talking about this a little bit off mic before- Mm...

334
00:55:50.480 --> 00:55:58.830
uh, but Clone was written about in- [laughs]... Neiman Lab today. There was this bit- Which I missed. I didn't- What- It was written about on the 8th. I only saw it this morning. Oh, oh my God, five days ago.

335
00:55:58.840 --> 00:56:02.540
I mean, if you're gonna write me in Neiman- Come on... at least send me the link- [laughs]... if you're not gonna interview me.

336
00:56:02.600 --> 00:56:12.109
But, but this bit about, um, you identifying yourself as a founder and, and that people not necessarily liking that, and people grading on that- Well-... and people not recognizing themselves as small business owners...

337
00:56:12.320 --> 00:56:21.300
I came up with this Instagram bio in two seconds for this thing, which was, like, your favorite founder's favorite bookmark, and some people had a very strong negative reaction to that.

338
00:56:21.800 --> 00:56:34.360
And I, I mean, my response to that criticism is a little bit facetious because, um, I- it was not, uh... Y- there was a little snark in it, and I think, like, I don't care.

339
00:56:34.680 --> 00:56:42.560
And we know that founder- You know, it's a blog... tends to mean startup-y- You have to have a little bit of snark in it... techy. Yeah, but I'm like, everyone w- who's charging for their Substack is a founder.

340
00:56:42.680 --> 00:56:55.180
Like, my... I tweeted, like, "You don't have a newsletter, you have a small business on a rentier platform." Mm-hmm. And I, I don't understand why it's so hard for people to admit that.

341
00:56:55.240 --> 00:57:06.090
Like, you hung up a shingle, you're taking money from people, you have founded a business. And I know that your vision of founder is, of founder is, like, Elizabeth Holmes and the worst people alive- [laughs]...

342
00:57:06.120 --> 00:57:09.850
but it's also the person that runs the coffee shop that you go to every day. Mm.

343
00:57:09.920 --> 00:57:22.070
And it's not that I think people should have more respect for the title, I just think people should be a little bit more honest about all the points of economic exchange that they're involved in in their creative consumption- Mm...

344
00:57:22.120 --> 00:57:27.460
and in their creative, like, in the stuff they themselves create, especially if they're charging for it.

345
00:57:27.900 --> 00:57:38.820
Because it doesn't serve anyone to pretend that you're not running a business, and in fact, you leave yourself incredibly vulnerable for manipulation by the platforms like Substack that you're working with. Mm-hmm.

346
00:57:39.840 --> 00:57:45.790
But s- it's almost like the thing of being- End rant... of being alienated from- That's not a... [laughs]... from your food, to, to, to, to make an analogy. Smiling. Mm-hmm.

347
00:57:46.100 --> 00:57:55.360
Is, you know, like, if you eat at insert here fast food restaurant, like, you should be aware of, like, the slaughterhouse conditions and supply chain and, like, how fucked up that can be.

348
00:57:55.460 --> 00:58:11.300
Um, but, [laughs] to take it back to, like, the small business media thing, it's like, you know, if, if, if you're on Substack and, and that's how you're running your business, like, you should be aware of the value relationships and that, like, you know, Substack makes money by basically providing you these tools for free.

349
00:58:11.460 --> 00:58:18.240
You get this, this, you know, subscription fee- Yeah... if you start doing that. Andreessen Horowitz is making money on them. Andreessen Horowitz, like, blah, blah, blah.

350
00:58:18.760 --> 00:58:25.460
J- the whole chain and supply chain- You're the pig... of like how these tools come to you. You're the piggy. [laughs] And, and, like, how money is exchanged, how data is exchanged.

351
00:58:25.520 --> 00:58:34.980
Like, it's, I don't know, it, it, it's important to, like, de-alienate yourself from that. And you can participate in it, but you should think about it. [laughs] I gotta say something.

352
00:58:36.060 --> 00:58:44.500
All love to the people I know that work at New York Magazine. [laughs] The second New York Mag joined Substack became a headline, I was like, "You fucked up.

353
00:58:44.820 --> 00:58:51.760
You guys fucked up so bad," because that headline does everything for Substack and nothing for you. Mm. Yeah.

354
00:58:51.989 --> 00:59:01.900
And in fact, uh, Corey left- He left the company after five days, and- I was like, how do you- I mean, w- how, what was the deal there? What was the story there? What is Adam- How do you fumble like that?

355
00:59:02.020 --> 00:59:10.820
What is Adam Moss- How do you let that happen to you? What is Adam Moss thinking right now? Like, Adam Moss, like, made that magazine, like, truly, like, a vessel that you wanna put on your coffee table.

356
00:59:10.840 --> 00:59:15.520
They fucked up so bad. And, and the new editor, of course, David, uh, uh, that, uh, s- same tradition.

357
00:59:16.000 --> 00:59:23.540
So why the fuck would you go into a platform that does everything against aesthetics that you care just so deeply about? Mm. I mean, I think they were just, like, trolling a little bit, frankly.

358
00:59:23.720 --> 00:59:30.320
I, I, I subscribed for the first day or two, and then I just unsubscribed 'cause I was like- [laughs]... I don't... Dinner Party's a cool thing.

359
00:59:30.400 --> 00:59:36.680
I, I get it once in a while, and I know the- But do you get Dinner Party off... You get it off their regular distribution? Yeah, I get Dinner Par- I like Dinner. I like what they're doing with it.

360
00:59:36.720 --> 00:59:45.590
And it was the same content? I, I mean, I couldn't even r- I think it was maybe cut down a little bit, but I think that they're... And, and you know what? I got love for Substack folks.

361
00:59:45.660 --> 00:59:55.260
Like, I like Austin a lot, Tedesco- Mm... and I think they're trying things out, but I, I don't know why New... It's not the perfect fit for New York Mag, and it felt exactly right. Well said.

362
00:59:55.700 --> 01:00:08.500
Substack got everything out of that, and New York Mag got shit, so. I would be extremely upset if a headline like that was written about my company, and I've done a lot to never put myself in that position. Yeah.

363
01:00:08.540 --> 01:00:16.570
They're just playing, or they're, they're just, they're testing stuff. Yeah, but no company should ever benefit from your long decades of brand- Mm...

364
01:00:16.570 --> 01:00:21.720
and reputation building more than you do- Well, what this is, though-... with every single step that you take... it's a bet. I mean, what...

365
01:00:22.100 --> 01:00:27.200
It's a tr- they're hoping that they're trading that association for, for user growth, right?

366
01:00:27.280 --> 01:00:41.580
And, like, to me, what I see Substack as is it's Patreon plus Twitter plus basically a, a startup accelerator for small media businesses- Mm-hmm... um, with a newsletter feature attached. Yeah. Like, that's...

367
01:00:41.620 --> 01:00:51.750
So it's pe- it's, it's New York Magazine, I think, treating it as, as Twitter. Yeah, yeah. And they wanna be first mover too. Remember, New York Mag is so brilliant at that.

368
01:00:51.760 --> 01:01:01.800
They're first movers in so many areas of media, and they're a first mover on moving onto Substack as a established legacy media brand actually caring about Substack. I haven't seen too many other.

369
01:01:01.820 --> 01:01:10.120
I've seen brands go on, but I haven't seen publications do it, so I think they wanted to be a first mover. Uh, that's more, probably more important to them than having Substack steal all the headlines.

370
01:01:10.140 --> 01:01:17.760
Well, everyone's now seen that headline, and they're not gonna do it, so first mover- [laughs]... last mover is- No, I, I, I, I, it gave me- I'm sorry I'm hammering this hard, but I really think, like,

371
01:01:19.320 --> 01:01:29.580
brand and reputation is everything. Never, ever, ever give it up to somebody who's been around- Mm... so much shorter than you have. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Especially New York Mag is such a good brand. Yeah.

372
01:01:30.500 --> 01:01:40.410
It's, it was an interesting, yeah, experience. It's a big halo for Substack, and, uh, and Substack, I give them credit as founders for what they've built, but they do not deserve that halo- [laughs]...

373
01:01:40.440 --> 01:01:52.224
from the mainstream publishing industry.Mm-hmm. Rentier, it's the re- the, the Rentier Newspaper. Um, we should- All software is rentier, but like- That's true... a lot of times it has, like, utility as well.

374
01:01:52.234 --> 01:01:58.524
[laughs] Let's wrap it up on a positive note. Yeah. Uh, Matt- Fine... what is, what is the most- What is one thing... Rose and thorn. No, I'm just kidding. No.

375
01:01:58.803 --> 01:02:13.554
What's the most memorable thing that you've eaten so far this year, and one thing or place that you're excited to eat? Um, I w- I was in Vancouver, and I had buri sushi, which is, like, the square blowtorch sushi- Mm...

376
01:02:13.584 --> 01:02:24.084
so it's, like, slightly different. Mm. It's like you get it sometimes in omakases, but Vancouver has this amazing, uh, uh, history with this style of sushi, and I just think it's, it really hits me in the right spot.

377
01:02:24.144 --> 01:02:34.544
I love that style of sushi. I had it a couple places in Vancouver. Um, I also went to Stissing House this weekend. They're just so, so- That's the one upstate, right? Yeah, it's- That's on my list... it's in Pine Plains.

378
01:02:34.844 --> 01:02:46.034
Mm-hmm. It's really a g- a great restaurant. They're in year three. I just think that they're doing such amazing work, not just in culinary, but style of service, and just, like, a really, really cool place to visit.

379
01:02:46.804 --> 01:02:52.724
So Stissing House was great. Seasoned, but not too seasoned of the concept. Not too seasoned. They're, like, coming back- Tell us about- Year three. Year three... what was the second question?

380
01:02:52.804 --> 01:03:02.004
Oh, um, a place that you are, that you hope to eat soon, or, like, a thing that you hope to eat soon. Yeah. Or maybe it's what you're making for lunch. [laughs] I don't know. Oh, no. I, um, what do I wanna eat?

381
01:03:02.044 --> 01:03:13.734
I mean, I'm, I, I think... I'm going to Portland this weekend. Hmm. Which one? Uh, sorry, good call. It's exactly the right, uh, follow-up question. [laughs] Uh, the one that, the Oregon, uh- Bad Portland...

382
01:03:13.744 --> 01:03:23.384
I haven't been back for eight years, but I went, I went to college there. Yeah, what a wonderful city. I haven't been in, uh, about a year, and I love going there for food. And, um, I want to... I just think, uh...

383
01:03:23.424 --> 01:03:29.424
My friend Jordan Michael who writes for Taste is writing a novel about Portland. Hmm. I, I, w- I r- read his manuscript. It's fucking so good.

384
01:03:29.624 --> 01:03:39.584
Um, and I just wanna go to some old school places, and Jordan's gonna take me to a few. I, I'm, I'm cool with some of the newer places, but I want some, like, '90s to early 2000s Portland- Mm...

385
01:03:39.594 --> 01:03:48.884
in, in- You gotta visit M. Sealy Katz in the oldest perf- niche perfume house in Portland while you're there- I-... and see if they can hook you up with a new signature scent. Thank you for...

386
01:03:48.904 --> 01:03:56.904
Daisy, that's a great recommendation. M. Sealy Katz going in my phone. I have, I have one recommendation for you. Please. Maybe it's a little too new. Uh, I think it's about 12 years or more by now.

387
01:03:57.004 --> 01:04:06.164
One of my favorite places. I know you're not a drinker- Yeah... anymore, but you don't need to be a drinker to go here. It's called Stammtisch. Okay. Um, German restaurant. It's the best... My father's from Bavaria.

388
01:04:06.204 --> 01:04:14.894
I went there with him. He said the best German food he's had outside of Germany, and better- Mm... than most in Germany. I haven't been there for eight years, but I know this- Love that... stuff kick in.

389
01:04:15.504 --> 01:04:28.524
And it was, you know, what, for, like, a pretzel or a schweineschweinshaxe, or an- any, I mean, any classic German food that, you know, you could find at whatever, like, s- 50-year-old tourist trap German restaurant, but actually good.

390
01:04:28.704 --> 01:04:38.904
Such a great rec, Francis. Mm-hmm. My, my grandmother was born in Munich. Oh, there you go. So there you go. I, I love that food so much, and I, I just think Portland has many dimensions.

391
01:04:39.024 --> 01:04:48.693
Obviously, you live there, and I just think that that pre-Portlandia Portland is what I'm trying to get a little sense of. [laughs] Um, because there's such a cool history of Portland in the '90s. Mm-hmm.

392
01:04:48.964 --> 01:04:55.244
Uh, and I wanna, I want... That's, like, one of my big goals with this trip. Portlandia is so nostalgic. We should... We'll stop in a second here.

393
01:04:55.284 --> 01:05:03.014
[laughs] Portlandia's so nostalgic for me now 'cause I moved there for college a year after it started, and I left a year before it ended. So, like, I re-watched- Yeah...

394
01:05:03.024 --> 01:05:09.714
a few episodes recently, and it's been long enough where I was like, "Wow, this is, this was my Ivy League documentary." That's, like, real Portland to you. Yeah.

395
01:05:09.714 --> 01:05:18.044
[laughs] It's like Greenpoint depicted in Girls doesn't exist anymore. All right. We should wrap it up. This- Okay... was... Was this Taste, or was it Tasteland? [laughs] It was both. It was both.

396
01:05:18.144 --> 01:05:25.924
You're getting a double dose of Taste today. Thank you, Matt. Thank you for coming on, Matt. Thank you for having us. Francis and Daisy, thank you so much for inviting me. I love your show. Uh- Thank you... it's so cool.

397
01:05:26.044 --> 01:05:43.064
Appreciate it. Absolute pleasure. All right. See you next week. [outro music]