[upbeat music] Welcome to a special bonus episode of the Rebooting show. This is Brian Morrissey.
The following episode features highlights from TRB Conversations at CES, a live podcast recording we held in collaboration with our friends at XCO in Las Vegas earlier this month.
In the first conversation, I spoke to Vox Media CRO Jeff Schiller about Vox's big bet on talent.
I think of Vox as a prime example of a publisher that has adapted its business model to the reality that more often than not, individuals trump institutions in the information space.
Vox is home to talent like Kara Swisher, Scott Galloway, Sue Bird, and more. Jeff and I discuss how Vox looks to create franchises around its talent, and it's a, it's a really fascinating conversation.
In the second conversation, I spoke with Mark Floriani, the CEO of FloSports. You know, sports media has been on a tear the last few years as advertiser demand for sports adjacency keeps growing.
FloSports focuses on niche sports like cheerleading, wrestling, swimming, and more. And Mark and I talk about the economics of streaming and how Flo builds diversified revenue streams around its programming.
Another fascinating conversation. I wanna thank XCO for its support in making this program possible, and thank you to everyone who came out for the live recording. Now enjoy my conversations with Jeff and Mark.
[upbeat music] Welcome to TRB Conversations at CES, powered by XCO. Joined by Jeff Schiller, the Chief Revenue Officer at Vox Media. Macro trend of the year, I, I think this is an easy one.
It's gonna be around talent.
I think you guys have a- have done, I don't wanna say actually, you guys have done a really good job, and I think it's been kind of underrated with how much Vox's business has changed, and has particularly changed around embracing talent.
I think this is something that every institutional media brand is trying to figure out, because look, the, the, the energy I feel like in the media space is more towards individual talent, whether that's on Substack, Beehiiv, whether that's on YouTube or podcasts.
Do you wanna do a shameless plug for your Substack? No, because I'm on Beehiiv. Okay. So tell me about, like, uh, how Vox is changing around talent. Yeah, absolutely.
So I think over the last, you know, few years, you know, five, six years, we've invested to the point where now we're the largest independent podcast network, and our expression of talent is through the pod, and the pod has gone from being an audio-only medium to now audio, video, IRL, and it's sort of really leaned in and, and, and encroached upon, like, true kind of creator-based businesses because our talent, they're, they're creators, and they're just platformed.
And we're giving them that platform, whether it's obviously, like, our sales and marketing capabilities, our production capabilities, studios, whatever it is.
But that evolution from pod to creator has really given us a, a sort of competitively advantageous position in the marketplace to now say, "Not only are we number one in terms of reach and scale, but we have this talent that's unique to us, and we can express their sort of point of view in, in different ways."
Right. And you're striking different kinds of deals now. I mean, you're probably dealing with agents and whatnot because, I mean, what I think is interesting, it's like some are, like, owned and operated, right? Mm-hmm.
But then you have different types of relationships. I mean, I think probably the most prominent one would be with Kara Swisher and Scott Galloway around The Pivot and the, and the other podcasts.
I mean, those have different economics too, right? Yeah. You know, I, I, I think those have been well-covered, you know, in terms of deal structures and incentives and all of those things.
But I- No, I mean, Scott loves to open- Yeah... the trench coat, so that's like very public. Exactly. Exactly.
But I, but I think to your point, there's, like, definitely a wide array of, of deals and, and I think for the most part, you know, outside of our, quote-unquote, "O&Os," yeah, we, you know, we're dealing with talent and their production companies and their agents.
And I think because we've become such a flywheel, there's a trust factor that we're big, but we're not massive. We care about talent first and foremost. You know, like, we...
Uh, not to sort of be derivative, but to be derivative, we like to sort of say that Vox Media podcast network is, is, like, the HBO of podcasting, where we're a home for talent, to nurture them, to build trust, and it's not just, like, this massive scale play.
And so that gives us the ability to create partnerships, business partnerships- Right... like, versus just more- But that's totally different. The, the pillow fell down. Yeah.
That's [laughs] that's completely different than an, a employer... They're slick. Yeah, they're very- An employer-employee relationship. Thank you. Yeah.
I knew this was, this is the way this was always going to end- Yeah... Jeff. Uh, chief revenue officer. [laughs] Yeah. I, I respect that.
So, you know, th- those are different types of relationships that you end up having. I saw, like, s- like, Seth Matlin, so, like, from Forbes is, is...
And that was like, that surprised me, 'cause I mean, he was always running the, the, the CMO. Was it the CMO Club? What is it called? Yeah, the CMO Network, yeah. The CMO Network at, at Forbes.
Now he's going over to Vox, but as part of his own company. He struck a partnership. Absolutely.
So he will have his own podcast that he'll have the CMOs that attend his CMO summit on as guests and talk about a variety of issues.
So it's really building him out, you know, outside of where he was at Forbes into his own entity in partnership with us, and that gives us, you know, the unique ability, when you look at our channel verticals, to say, "Okay, from, like, a thought leadership perspective, you have Scott and Kara, which are, like, tech, politics, whatever.
You have Seth now, which is more B2B. So you have-Optionality. And again, you know, we want to build these channels out in a way that's diversified so that we're not just leaning on one sector.
You know, I know that you talked earlier about, you know, the, the pickleball bubble, but the, the bubble of anything, AI, like, we don't wanna be over-leveraged in one specific space.
So, like, these deals are partnerships that obviously are grounded in trust and collaboration, but they're also, from our lens, a strategic investment in different areas so we're not, like, tripling down in having Scott and Kara in, like, four or five different pods that are very, very similar.
And monetization is beyond advertising for a lot, 'cause I mean, you wanna build franchises, right? And you guys have never really been... I feel like you guys have never been completely...
I don't know, maybe you're doing more, like, with events. I mean, there was, like, a Pivot event for a little while, or maybe it was just a year in, in Miami. Well, we just did the Pivot Tour. It was a five-city tour.
Right. But that's, like- Yeah... more of a podcast- Totally... tour model. Totally. Which is different- Yeah... than, like- Yeah. No, I remember it was at, I think, Florida Ana. Florida Ana, yeah. Yeah, back in the day.
But look, the live pod thing is great from a client perspective. If you're a partner of ours, it's a great expression because it's all hardworking media.
I know when, when we've talked in the past or just, like, industry sort of questions around the ROI of events, a live pod gives you the ability to distribute it because it's recorded, both audio, video, and then you also get the IRL, whether it's sampling or participation.
So we've done, you know, a massive amount of live pods across the, the landscape. NWSL Finals, WNBA All-Star, South by Southwest, we're, we're, we're gonna be the official podcast stage again this year.
So that aside, as it relates to talent, our publishing assets also have that same ability. So Eater is a community. We just did Eater Under Wraps in SoHo and down in, in Lower Manhattan, and the community came out
at scale to interact with the brand during the holidays, taste things, buy things. So it's not unique to... The talent quotient is not unique to the pod.
It's just best expressed and most sort of succinctly expressed by one individual.
But our brands are creating franchises that are nurturing that same level of talent, whether it's, like, our Let's Do Lunch franchise, where you have celebrities at their favorite restaurant.
We just had a viral episode with William H. Macy. Or P.S. Fit, which is the number one fitness franchise on YouTube. So talent writ large for us is a priority because differentiation is a priority.
You know, we think with AI slop, you know, at sort of peak, that it's really important that we're built for this sort of new era of discovery, which is grounded in we're curating and we're helping people discover things that they didn't know that they needed.
It's kinda like that old Jobsian thing. It's like no one knew that they needed a smartphone until I created it.
And so our goal is, whether it's on the pod side through what Scott and Kara or Meghan and Sue are talking about, or with the brands, to be able to say, "Here are things you should taste, touch, experience," whatever.
And that, Vox Media being built for that new era of discovery is, is part of the plan. Yeah. So will your strength in podcasting then make that the center of your sort of YouTube/video strategy?
It's the most cost-effective, absolutely. Yeah. So, so short answer is yes, and we're excited about it. Yeah. I mean, how do you... Do you... Like, which of the podcasts have translated the best to video?
You know, both On with Kara Swisher, Prof G, The Pivot, the whole universe, it's really, really strong. Our pods are all sort of consumed in different places.
If you ask one person, they might tell you that all they, they do is watch Meghan and Sue on social versus, you know, Vivian Tu on TikTok versus, you know, Scott and Kara on YouTube. So it kind of runs the gamut.
But I would say all of them pretty much are seeing tremendous growth on the YouTube side of the fence. Okay. Just 'cause it's, like, ambient sort of, you know- Yeah, exactly... passive listening. I'm still...
I'm not, like, totally sold on, on pod- on, on the video podcast boom. I mean, we'll see about if the Netflix, you know, bet pays off. I think, you know, a lot of the YouTube numbers, I wonder how...
I wanna know how many of those are people actually watching the podcast on a television versus having it, like, in a tab. And me, this could be me personally. It's just, uh, it's not a behavior that I totally understand.
Yeah, I mean, look, I, I, I think it depends on who's on the pod, what the format is. Like, some pods more sort of organically lend themselves to video.
You wanna see the dynamic between, if it's a co-host, between the two, and that's why, like, a Meghan and Sue or a Kara and Scott might play better versus if it's just one person and you're kinda like, "Okay, you know, they're, they're being videoed.
Great," but there's no interplay. Right. And, and I think, like, you know, it's been successful in radio.
You know, you see, like, the sort of video streams of, like, whatever it might be, like WFAN or, like, even before that, you know, it's, like, The Howard Stern Show being on video. So it's like- Yeah...
there are use cases that are, like, 30 years old that are successful, so yeah, we'll see. Okay. Yeah. And also with video, I mean, you get to, you get to hug the pillow. That's the important thing. I will... Yeah.
It's my, it's my, it's the- You don't get that with audio. [laughs] Exactly. Jeff, thank you so much. Thank you. Really appreciate it. Appreciate it, Brian.
[upbeat music] Okay, welcome to TRB Conversations at CES, powered by XCO, joined by Mark Floreani, the CEO, co-founder of FloSports. I wanna talk about the macro trends of niche sports. I'm obsessed.
Like, sports are... Obviously, so much money is flowing into sports with the changes to the media ecosystem. It has so many different advantages. And first of all, just so people know, explain FloSports.
FloSports is a direct-to-consumer sports media and technology platform.
We stream over 50,000 events, and to put that in perspective, that's the most in the US by any company, focusing on what we call middle and long-tail sports.
And we also produce hundreds of thousands of p- pieces of content, from podcasts to videos and software for these sports to run on.All right, so when you talk about the, these, these mid and long tail sports, let's call them niche.
I think they're niche, but what are we talking about here? Yeah, I mean- Badminton. What, what, what else? We got wrestling. We do cheerleading.
We do motorsports underneath NASCAR, everything in hockey underneath the NHL, jujitsu, marching band, things like that, rugby, cycling, that are more popular outside the United States.
All of those are kind of in the middle and long tail. And, you know, you say niche, middle and long tail, but the market is now kind of figuring out how big it is.
I mean, recently, Washington Post, New York Times talk- said this is a forty billion dollar a year market.
We've been at it for twenty years knowing that, hey, that these communities, that if you add them up together, they're gonna be pretty big, and now the market's starting to realize that. So give me like...
'cause I think it's interesting because it, it, it goes into the more specific you can be and the more you can, like, organize around a community is, is the best place to be in media, and I think it's something like, like cheerleading- Yes...you mentioned, right?
I don't have a, a ton of experience in the cheerleading sector, but I would guess that if you're, if you're into cheerleading, you're really into cheerleading. You are into cheerleading.
You are spending your weekends, you're spending your disposable income driving or flying to these different tournaments and- And a lot of competitions too. Tons of competitions. I mean, in cheerleading is the...
In Varsity, who just got bought by KKR for billions of dollars, they're the biggest customer of Disney.
They send-- They, they have big events in Disney, and they have more people, more cheerleaders going to Disney to compete than any other organization. So cheerleading is massive.
They have events with over 100,000 people, and there's a passionate, rabid fan- Wait, 100,000 people go to a cheerleading event? Yeah, over a weekend, right? Wow. Yeah. It's the... They, they have one in Dallas.
They have one in Dallas. [laughs] Seems like the kind of thing you would have in Dallas. Yeah. [laughs] I... Cheerleading, man, if you actually look at it, it's like if you like gymnastics, right?
But you have 15 girls, and you're throwing them up in the air. It's very pres- you know, precise.
You have to be very strong, and I wasn't big into cheerleading, but then getting into it, it's a, it's a pretty competitive sport. No, they're athletic. Yeah. There's no... There... It's definitely a sport. Yeah.
So I, I will give them- Yeah...all, all the credit in the world. But it also, I think, I feel like sports is so, is so hot right now for a couple other re- One is just IP. Mm-hmm. Right? Like when you...
Having IP rights these days, again, that's where you wanna be in media. Mm.
And the other is a lot of times, particularly these niche sports, I feel like they, they lend themselves to a lot of different, you know, monetization models.
You can make money in a whole, a whole bunch of different ways. How do you guys play in that, in both those areas? Yeah. So we have moved into IP. So, you know, we have, we own three motorsport series.
We own a couple combat series in wrestling and jujitsu, and we do that because we really wanna own the full customer experience.
And so the middle and long tail has been very unprofessional for a while, and so start times are wrong.
You know, the, the events aren't run well, and by owning the IP, we can then can own it from registration, ticketing, to broadcast times to make sure that we're really delivering a great customer experience for the sport, and then we also own it, so we don't have to rent the rights.
Yeah. So I think about UFC a lot, right? Mm-hmm. And I don't think about it a lot, but I think about it right now. [laughs] That's a complete lie. But I do, I do remember when UFC...
I remember reading a New York Times, like, magazine article about, like, whether cage fighting should be banned. Mm-hmm. And, you know, that's where that started.
And now UFC, for better or worse, is, is gonna be taking place, like, on the White House lawn. Yeah. And, and, you know, it has really arrived- Mm-hmm...as, as a major sport and a major category.
When you're looking at... Give me a candidate or two that could be the next UFC. Well, I think, you know, cricket actually could be pretty big. Oh, God.
Yeah, cricket could be pretty- You're gonna have to do a good sales job- Yeah. [laughs]...I think, for that. Don't they... That... like a, a, a match or whatever, a test lasts, like, three days? Well, if you...
They've changed that. Now it's about three hours, and it's actually- Okay...the most valuable rights outside the NFL is the IPL- Okay...in India. Motorsports still.
Motorsports, there is a, such a passionate following in motorsports. That's why we own three series.
Any weekend across the country, there are hundreds of tracks all over the Midwest that are getting tens of thousands of people.
We're gonna be in Tulsa, Oklahoma, on a dirt track indoors next week, and we'll have NASCAR drivers racing it. We'll have IndyCar drivers racing it.
We'll get hundreds of thousands of people to watch, you know, these different types of motorsports. So motorsports still has a lot of room to grow in the United States.
NASCAR and F1 obviously on the top, but there's a ton of different genres out there. How about pickleball? Pickleball. Everyone asks me about pickleball. [laughs] We are not in pickleball.
There's, there's a lot of drama in pickleball. Is there? There's a lot... Yeah, a lot of drama and a lot of billionaires fighting it out over not a lot of viewership, so we kind of stay away from that. Okay. I...
'Cause I s- it seems to me that the, the pickleball bubble has mostly deflated, and paddle has, has taken its place, mostly because paddle appeals to rich people, and I think a lot of, a lot of niche sports, particularly when they, when they appeal to rich people- Yeah...they attract a lot, a lot of attention.
I mean, when you're talking about motorsports, it's not like, like F1. Mm-hmm. You know, F1 exploded for a bunch of different reasons. Mm-hmm.
But as a category, you know, the amount of money that gets thrown around at F1 races is just unbelievable. Yeah, I mean- That's why people are trying to make, like, you know, yachting and stuff the, the next F1.
Yeah, yachting will be difficult, just the production is really hard.
But yeah, there is a lot of money obviously in F1, but there's a lot of regular people that are racing on the weekends in Ohio and Pennsylvania that, you know, this is, like, in their blood.
So I would say that racing's a little different than, and motorsport's a little different than pickleball. Mm-hmm.
But agree, when there's a, a bunch of billionaires fighting it out, it, it's not an area that we like to go into. Okay.
So when you, when you're talking about, like, your, your monetization, are you, are you mostly monetizing through, through video? Or, like, how are... Like, explain how you guys monetize. Yeah.
So of the 50,000 events, right, we stream those live, and it's a subscription to watch most of those.
And so people pay, you know, a premium price point, 30 bucks a month or 150 bucks a year, and we have well over a million subscribers doing that. We have advertising, and then we have software. Okay. Yeah. Great.
And how do you break that out? Subscription is our oldest, and it's about 90%. And so we're adding those other two to build out, you know, a more portfolio of revenue streams. Yeah.
How about attaching brands to these sports? I would think that that would be a big opportunity. Yeah.
So, you know, next week at the Chili Bowl, Chili's is our sponsor, and we're bringing in Tony Stewart to do a pre-race show. And so, you know, we have, we've had Kubota.
We have a bunch of shoe companies, Brooks, and we create content. We integrate them into the broadcast, obviously spots and dots and pre-rolls.
But we really wanna integrate them into these communities 'cause these communities are super passionate.
And once you advertise in these communities, you're actually, as a brand, you're, you're part of that community 'cause you know the community knows that you're investing in it, and then we invest in the, in the communities ourselves, right?
We're gonna spend over $100 million into these sports. We're the biggest spender in terms of rights, fees, production, content marketing.
And so when we get brands aligned with us, they re- they're, the community really likes to go out and, and support those brands. Okay. Mark, thank you so much. All right. Appreciate it. Thank you.
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