[on-hold music] Welcome to the Rebooting show. This is a special end of the year edition.
I am Brian Morrissey, and when I was thinking about the end of the year, I thought, "I need to have two people have their fingers on the pulse of this industry that are out there every day figuring out what direction it is going," and I can think of no two better people than Sarah Fisher, who has been on this podcast a few times.
I think you're, I think you're close to Neil Vogel with having the record, Sarah, so congrats on that, or I'm sorry, as the meme goes. Sarah is the proprietor of Axios Media Trends.
I think you're now at, like, the f- sort of f-first name basis, at, at least within the industry, when people say Sarah, you know who they're talking about. So Sarah, thank you for joining us.
Oh my gosh, thanks for having me. And Lachlan Cartwright. Lachlan is the proprietor of Breaker, which shockingly has not even been around a full year, but I feel like you have...
And I'm not saying this just because we're looking at each other on Riverside, but, like, you've sort of burst on the scene with this. I, I told you I love the spirit of Breaker.
Anyone who doesn't read Breaker, you got to, because it has, it has a little bit of a tabloid sensibility, and hopefully you'll, you'll hear Lachlan is not American, and I, I mean- [laughs]...
that in a complimentary way, 'cause American journalism takes itself too seriously. [laughs] And we could get into that, Lachlan. But Lachlan has, you know, a little bit of, you know, that...
I don't know, you make it fun, so I appreciate that. True that. Thank you for having me on. And it's just necessary reading for, for what is going on. So let's just get into this.
I wanna have to start off by talking about, like, w- what are...
The, the macro story we're talking about when we think about the media industry, and to me, it, like, comes down to we are, we are all witnesses, and we're also living through, and that's why it's interesting for the three of us, a massive decentralization of this media ecosystem, and I feel like this year it accelerated into almost, like, disintegration.
It was going to be a challenging year for the institutional media world, considering all of the external forces that are compressing it, whether it's the changes to Search, AI coming online, the fact that a lot of these business models are not, they're not working really well when they're dependent on advertising, and then you add in Trump, and it's been, it's been a difficult road.
But let's talk about, like, our own, like, places in it. So Lachlan, you, you are, y- you've worked at, at a bunch of different places. You were at Hollywood Reporter, you were at The Daily Beast.
New York Post, New York Daily News, AMI. Yeah, you touched them all, right? And you went out on your own.
You're part of, and I think this is one part of this story, is we saw an acceleration this year of journalists going out on their own and joining whatever we're gonna call this, this area.
I don't think creator economy does it, but if you have a, if you have a r- a suggestion, I'm, I'm willing to listen. How to lose your life savings in a year, maybe? [laughs] So tell me about that.
Let's just, just start with, like, what, like, how has, how has it been? I mean, as I said, like, I think Breaker's been, like, very... It- it's obvious from the outside it's, like, been very successful, right?
I think you have, you have something there for sure, and that's the most important thing, but it's always messy behind the scenes.
Yeah, I mean, I, I kind of look at it, I've got mates who own restaurants, and they say to me, you know, I say, "Oh, look, looks like this place is just taking off and there's a lot of fun, cool, sexy people here, and the food's great, and you guys are killing it.
It must be just, just, it's just dreams, right?" And they're like, "Mate, you've got no idea what goes on back there in the kitchen."
And I look at Breaker [laughs] similarly to that, but you, you might look from the surface that everything's tickety-boo. Yeah. But mate, it's just constant ag and constant problems.
"I can't log in," "I didn't get the email," or then, you know, I, I look at the sends and someone's opened it 600 times or 400 times, which means that there's mass forwarding it around a company.
I don't see any revenue off of that. And the first four months were brutal.
Like, you know, I've told this to friends, like, I was waking up in the middle of the night throwing my guts up with stress, worried I was gonna lose my life savings, 'cause I didn't get money from the roofing blokes or TPG or Jerry Carp now.
And so, you know, that, that was incredibly stressful, and when, you know, when you're spending someone else's money, it's probably fun.
When it's your own life savings and, and the thing isn't growing, then [laughs] then, then it's, then it's, like I said, it is very, very frightening and stressful.
And there was a period there, I'll be very brutally honest, I didn't think Breaker was gonna make it. Having said that, in the last three, four months, it's just taken off.
And, you know, we're not in orbit yet, but I think, you know, there'll be a period next year that we'll get there, and that's exciting.
And, you know, I, I see the response from people, because in real time, you know, people, if the thing's not out by, if the Bre- Breaker's not out by 8:30, I'm getting messages of people, "Where is it? Where is it?
What's going on?" I'm like, "Hold your horses." I'm dealing with this flak- [laughs]... having a, having a panic attack about some item.
And so I, I see that it's, it's, it's got this direct relationship with the subscribers, and I see the subscriber list and it's a, a list of very prominent and influential people in the industry.
And, you know, you've just gotta keep going and you've just gotta keep- Yeah... growing it. And I'm chuffed that, you know, it's getting this response.
And I always say if you tell the punters something they don't know and make them laugh at something they do know, that, that's a compelling product, and that's, that's the mantra of Breaker.
I love that you say y- you're chuffed and you're talking about the punters. This is what I was talking about. We're gonna have, like, a- [laughs]... a punter translator. Someone, someone...
We, we need a Breaker, a Breaker translator for some of these [laughs] things. Yeah.
[laughs] So I do apologize to the audience, which I'm assuming is mostly Americans, but I am still a, a, a bloke, a kid from the suburbs of Melbourne, and I'm, I still do consider myself the little Aussie battler, which is the scrappy side of, of, of Breaker.
So tell me about, like, so I think one of the things that I've liked about Breaker is, is that spirit. Like, I mean, and you've carried that through.
You, you've, you've mentioned before some of the places you worked, but they...There's some tabloid. There's some tabloid in there. For sure.
And I think, you know, I remember when I started really paying attention to, to Breaker and be like, "I don't... He's up to something different," was when you, like, deployed...
When, when you did, like, the creep shots at- Salzburger barbecue. [laughs] Salzburger barbecue. And I was like, ah. They were, they were, they were brilliant for- This is innovation.
This- They- I'm seeing innovation up close... from my, from my, from my snapper.
And yeah, I mean, look, I, I learned everything I know or pretty much everything I know from my time at the Sun in London, which was the remnants of, of Fleet Street.
All these legendary Fleet Street reporters who would, you know, took- who took a shine to me, who would let me come down the pub and, and, and sit with them as they worked their, their sources and their contacts.
And, you know, those kind of old school tabloid techniques, whether it's a door knock or a stakeout, are, are very much in my DNA and, and in my blood. And, you know, the Salzburger thing was a prime example.
You know, I, I wrote about that barbecue ahead of time, and a couple of readers reached out, a couple of subscribers, and they're like, "Well, who's going? Who's invited?" I thought, "Do you know what?
I'm gonna, I'm gonna find out myself."
And, and I [laughs] I found a snapper and, and we drove up there, and it was the best 500 bucks I'd spent for a long time because we got up there and, and that job could have gone wrong by the way. You know, where you...
The, the first rule of a stakeout, you don't really show your hand to the, to the person you're staking out. But it was really important to me that we let A.G.
Salzburger know that we were there and what we were gonna do. And so he was actually out front when we, when we arrived, you know, on that, on that stakeout. And I just went up.
I was wearing my Breakout fedora with the, the Breaker business card in it. And I was like, "G'day, mate. Lachlan from Breakit."
Now, his initial facial reaction was [laughs] was of someone who wasn't exactly pleased to see me. Uh, and I did get a call within 10 minutes from the New York Times communications department saying, "What is going on?"
But- Hilarious... you know, we stood in the rain for, for, you know, five hours, and we got all these shots of people coming in and out.
And, and, you know, they, uh, he saw the, the fun side of it, and at about 4:00 PM, his assistant brought me out two plates of food, and the snapper went to dig in. I said, "Mate, what are you doing?
We've gotta get shots of those. We've gotta do the, the, the food test." So I did a food review- Yeah... of the [laughs] of the New York Times barbecue. But that, that's the fun side of Breakit.
That's the kind of the light and the shade, the, the, the, the, the mix, which is really important to have.
You know, as well as the scoops, it's important to have, you know, a bit of that cheekiness and, and, and that, and that's, as I said- For sure... that sort of highbrow- Yeah... and that lowbrow.
That's kind of the, the, I think, the very unique appeal of Breakit. Look- Yeah... I'm in a very busy space, Brian, as you can appreciate. You know, I'm up against, you know, everyone from Puck to, to Status.
And, you know, it's, it's about how can I differentiate my product from the competitive set? And doing some of that, you know, fun, cheeky stuff- Yeah... which, again, I'm, I'm, I'm full...
I'm leaning into my, to my experience from working from the tabloids. It's like, yeah, fuck it. We'll, we'll, we'll go up to the Red Bird AGM and, and, and stake that out. And we did the same treatment on that one.
And on that one, again, I... You know, it's a classic example of you, you know because you go. I didn't know Barry Weiss was gonna roll in with fu- six beefy bodyguards.
But we got great frames of the beefy bodyguards, and, and that became [laughs] a big component of the story. And- Yeah... we ran that, and then I, I, it...
Sent it over to the New York Post and I said to someone over there, I said, "This is great material for you guys. I'll, I'll let you use the photos. One use only. I won't charge you for them." And they did it up big.
And then I sent it to Drudge, and I said to Matt, "Hey, this is, like, perfect for you." So then he put it up at the top [laughs] of the Drudge Report for 24 hours- There you go... with Barry's beefy bodyguards.
And now I, and now I'm, you know, licensing those photos. [laughs] Yeah, you got the hustle in you. Yeah, and you threw a great party. It a- it a- it attracted a, a, a wide swath.
[laughs] And I think that is- I think, I think we had a great mix... critical. Pucks and Flacks, editors, execs.
You know, I, I think, I think it was just a fun, old school, downtown New York media party, and we're gonna do more of them next year. Yeah. Great. Amazing. And so the business model i- right now is, is subscriptions?
Correct. Yes. It is, is- Yeah... wholly reliant on subscription revenue, and that's why it does my head in when I see someone's opened it 500 [laughs] fucking times 'cause I'm like- Right...
"You're gonna have me sleeping rough if you keep doing this." But the plan for next year is to be promiscuous with revenue streams, so events, brand partners, and I'm already starting to have those conversations.
And then, you know, the hope is I'm working with NYU, the J School, to feed some interns to me.
And then that hopefully will free me up to, to really sort of dig in and concentrate on other lines of, of revenue and also solve problems like the, the, the Mass Forty situation. Introduce group subscriptions.
Go to all these media companies and all these PR agencies that are, that are, you know, widely sharing it and say, "Hey, guys," like, you know, "We, we now do group subscriptions and, and I think, you know, this is, this is appropriate for you guys to..."
You know- Yeah... compared to how many people are, are reading and sharing it. So what to you was, like, the quintessential media story of the year? Well, I mean, I, I broke one of them, and that was Air Puck.
You know, that was, you know, John Kelly's Puck acquiring Graydon Carter's Airmail.
And I think why that story was, you know, uh, you know, why that story was fascinating is, is, is both Puck and Airmail were, were really two of the first of these new entrant newsletter digital media companies.
You know- Sure... run by legacy media operators. Graydon Carter, obviously legendary editor from Vanity Fair. John Kelly, who had been at The New York Magazine, sorry, New York Times Magazine, and at, and at Vanity Fair.
And they were two huge entrants. They went, they went and both got money from the roofing blokes, the glamorous Rufus standard industries. They both had investment from TPG.
And, you know, a- and both, I think, had, you know, entered this market with a, a fair amount of sort of buzz.
And then sort of fast-forward, you know, f- four, five, six years on, I think six years for Airmail, four years for Puck, both entities not profitable.
And so then you had the investors saying, "Hey, we need to figure this out."
Airmail went up for sale with The Rain Group.And there was one, you know, situation that, that was, you know, that looked like likely with Jerry Cardinale and Redbird.
He himself was looking to buy The Telegraph, but that was getting stalled because of, you know, matters that were going on across the pond.
And so the, the, the conclusion of this was basically for John Kelly's Puck to absolve, to absolve Airmail. But I think it told us a lot about the state of digital media. I think it told us a lot- Yeah...
about the state of these newsletter businesses, you know, and, and sort of- And for far less than Airmail raised. I mean, and Airmail was not a, a commercial success by any stretch of the imagination. Correct.
And Puck still isn't either. I mean, Puck still- Right... loses at, you know, per my reporting, about a million, a million a year, a bit more than a million a year. So I think the hope is by- Yeah...
bringing these two entities together, it, it could, it could be profitable. Yeah. Sarah, are you there? Yes. All right. Ah, Sarah. Sorry, guys. Get in.
I was gonna say before, I was just gonna jump in, like, before you lost me- Yes...
and sorry to the listeners, that I think, Lachlan, what you've built with Breaker is so compelling because it's very clear that you never phone it in. Like, every single edition has some sort of break...
I mean, it's called Breaker, right? It's some sort of breaking news, or it's telling me something I did not know before, which is why it's an essential read.
And so to me, I'm sorry that you had so much stress starting it, but to me, like, I have no qualms, no questions that this is going to continue to be a success because you never phone it in.
The challenge though is, like, the metabolism to do that, like what you're doing, what Oliver is doing. Oh my God, it's a lot. Yeah. Cheers. It's impressive. Yeah, Sarah, I, I appreciate you saying. I mean, I...
The way I look at it is every edition has to be shit hot because it could be the first time someone interacts with Breaker and, and, you know, a- and also could be the last time [chuckles] someone interacts with Breaker.
If they think, you know, I'm phoning it in, with- they have every right to, to cancel their, their subscription. But, you know, full credit to, to, to Darcy as well, to Oliver, because this is bloody hard.
And as you know, you know, because you do a newsletter, and a brilliant one at that, it is, it is bloody hard gitting up stuff for, for, for a newsletter every week or twice a week for, for Breaker. Yeah. Totally.
So Sarah, Sarah, tell us about... So you've been at this for, what is it, like- Yeah, speak about the metabolism- How long is it gonna be, like five years?... you've been at this for 40 years. Six years.
How long has- I've, I launched the newsletter in 2017, so almost nine. Holy God. Wow. Oh my God. And now, like, this is becoming a business. So I wanna like talk a little bit about that as like a...
You're kind of like an... They used to call them, like, entrepreneurs. [laughs] You know? [laughs] Thanks, Brian. I don't know, I don't think anyone uses that term anymore.
But like, you know, the idea is, you know, you're, you're a personal brand unto yourself, let's be real here. I know that, like, w- we...
Ben Smith says that that term causes journalists to throw up in their mouth a little bit, but that, that's how it is, right, these days. And you guys are building this into its own, like, business, right? Yeah.
Well, it's so funny you say that on the personal brand because I'll tell you, I'm heading out on mat leave in, like, five weeks, and one thing I've learned from that experience is your personal brand does not matter when you have to remove yourself from the product.
What matters is can you actually build a strong team that can pr- continue to produce when you have to be out? And so I appreciate what you're saying about the, my personal brand.
For me, what matters a lot is the brand of my team. Carrie Flynn- Mm-hmm... who's an incredible reporter. Christine Wang, who's an incredible editor. Dan Primack, who helps us with deals coverage.
Ina Fried, who help us with AI coverage.
That team effort is actually, to me, the most critical part of being an, quote, unquote, "entrepreneur" because it ensures, one, that if someone like myself has to remove themselves from the equation for any reason, that the product can continue, which is very important with a subscription product.
And then two, I think your readers get to understand that you have subject matter experts beyond yourself- Right... that you can tap into that make you even stronger. Yeah, for sure.
And I think that sort of circles back to what we were talking about with, with Puck and Airmail, right?
Because both of these were opportunities, a little bit different, but I think Puck is more, more pure of saying, "Hey, there's something going on here with this shift from institutions to individuals that's happening across media, right?
Lachlan, you're part of that." At the same time, there's always the tension of you're not building enterprise value necessarily if it's just l- a person. You know, we all think about this, right?
Like, and so I think what you're saying, Sarah, is beyon- I mean, beyond the enterprise value, but it's also just the reality of, you know, you hear about burnout and the rest, and it's hard to ship a shit hot newsletter- [laughs]
... uh, consistently. You know, when you, when you set the shit hot bar, you know, you're, you're setting yourself up to trap. And especially for paid products.
Like, so when I authored a free newsletter only and I needed to take time, then it wasn't as big of a deal if we had to sunset it. Yes, you were losing a little bit of ad revenue- Yeah...
for any week that you weren't on. For a paid product, and ours is a hefty fee because it's meant to be, you know, for B2B professionals, you can't just, you know, take off a few editions. It needs to be consistent.
And so that's where I think a lot more now than I ever have about the team aspect of what I'm building, and how can we service people consistently with all of these insights and all of this information.
So, you know, I, I appreciate what you're saying about the personal brand. I just, I think my personal brand is starting to evolve in, if I can, if I can elevate others, that's actually the best- Yeah...
metric of my brand. So I, yes. I, I, I take that, and it sounds like you have, like, some skepticism of this great decentralization of journalists going out on their own.
I mean, there's, there's just a consumer problem, but it has, it has almost accelerated, I feel like, this year. And you're in, like... You're not right now, but you're usually in, like, Washington DC, right?
Like, and- Yeah... Washington is, like, the heart of it. Like, it's shocking the number of journalists. We were talking about Ryan Lizza dropping, like, part 19 of- Oh, yeah [laughs] His, his, his, uh, paywall sunset.
Come on, Ryan Lizza. I've been trying to get a hold of you [laughs] Yeah. Right. If you're listening- I would say, Brian, I'm not skeptical.
I think actually in many cases-It can be good because sometimes I- I've seen it where if the journalist hadn't gone on their, out on their own, they would've been held back at the organization that they were in.
They can move faster on their own. So I'm not skeptical of it, I just think it depends on what it is that you wanna do. For me- Yeah...
I'm very focused and passionate about serving media professionals with market-moving information.
So that means that people need to have these insights consistently to do their jobs, and that is a different value proposition than, you know, providing really scoopy and entertaining information that, you know, you still need to be consistent about it for sure, but it's not the same as somebody who's paying a $500 a year subscription, what the expectations are for that.
Yeah. So let's talk about the, your story. Like, what is your, like, macro story of the year? Like, what's the, what's the big thing? You're, you're tracking across this business and what's moving markets.
If you had to boil down the year into, into one story, what would it be? It would be the lack of independence of federal agencies that are supposed to regulate this industry.
So we saw the other day that the Supreme Court seems poised to allow President Trump to be able to fire FTC commissioners, and that's a big deal because the FTC regulates advertising, which is the currency that our entire industry floats on.
We have seen the President trying to meddle and engage with the FCC, in terms of how they're going to potentially lift broadcast caps or not.
And we're seeing it now with this Warner Brothers Discovery Netflix Paramount drama, that even though the President truly doesn't have that much power, I mean, he still is trying to meddle with this merger.
And so for all those nine years I've been covering the media industry, we felt as though we could rely on the independence of regulators to keep this industry fairly operating, and I don't feel as though that...
I, I think that's changing a lot and I, I don't know what the long-term implications of that are, but it's going to be significant. Yeah. I mean, Lachlan, you had on that, you, you had a, a great anecdote.
And, and I think these things have so many downstream effects.
Like, I mean, everyone responds to incentives in a marketplace, and, like, that's why we've got FIFA giving, like, Trump the, like, FIFA Nobel Prize knockoff- [laughs]... or whatever.
And, like, you had a great anecdote about Politico, right? Yeah. I mean, Politico- Oh my gosh...
Politico [laughs] stuck Trump on the top of a list about, you know, the most influential people out of Europe, and, um- Look, this is an effective, this is an effective strategy. I come from the B2B industry.
This, this works And, and, and then, and then managed to get a, Politico managed to get a sit-down interview in, in the White House, their first one-on-one with Trump for, for five years.
And that list- And he admitted, he admitted- Yeah... it was because of the list He's, he said, "He's only doing it because you made me, you made me- Yeah... the man of Europe"- I love the transparency...
which wasn't exactly what the list is. You know, we said we wanted transparency and we got it. Yeah. I mean- Totally...
you know, look, just, just for the record, that list i- is usually features people living and working in Europe, not [laughs] not in, not in Washington.
But, hey, it worked, and as I said in last night's newsletter, they got the interview, they got some, you know, y- news lines out of it, and it's, it's a, it's a trick as old as time.
I mean, Time Magazine had been doing this for years. Yeah, exactly. So Sara, on that, I mean, this, I think this came at the end of the, the year, right?
But the, the Netflix, Warner Brothers, Paramount, I think this is a... I, I'd written, I don't know if I took it out, but it's basically a stimulus package for media reporters, right?
[laughs] Like, this is guarantees- [laughs] Great [laughs]... a year- It's a great package... like, plus of great...
And this is a fun story because to me it, like, hearkens back to, you know, the highway men, like Ken Auletta wrote about them and, like- Mm-hmm...
all the deal guys who were, who, you know, I don't mean that in a gendered way, but they were male, that, that, you know, were making the deals that shaped the industry.
And in reality, the industry is shaped now, like, totally differently. It's usually technology companies that, that are, are doing it.
This is a little bit of a throwback story, but it, it, it shows that it, it is, it has all of these forces in it. Yeah.
So give us the lay of the land, we're doing this on December 10th, with where this is and then where it goes. Yeah, for sure.
And, like, full disclosure, I'm, I'm a CNN contributor, which is a part of Warner Brothers Discovery. Okay, so here's what I would say.
I think Paramount w- was trying to position itself as the darling of this deal because it made three unsolicited bids and it's what triggered this entire bidding war to start.
Where I think Paramount fell out of favor is when it submitted its first deadline bid, so its first solicited bid on December 1st.
I think there were a lot of things in there that gave the Warner Brothers Discovery board a, a lot of pause. One, you know, they have raised $24 billion from sovereign wealth funds.
In the latest SEC filing it says that those sovereign wealth funds have declined voting rights and governance rights, I wonder if that was always the case, as well as Jared Kushner.
Two, they've promised a funding backstop, so essentially, like, you know, I know a trepidation that I've reported from the Warner Brothers Discovery board is whether or not they, with seven different entities on the cap table, would they be able to close if someone, like, pulled out last minute.
And they've essentially said, "Look, we've got access to all this Oracle stock, like, we're good for the money." Whereas with Netflix, you know, i- i- it's a much cleaner, streamlined financing situation.
So I think, I think for the Warner Brothers Discovery board, which they have 10 days as of Monday to respond to the hostile takeover, I think that the, there's a lot of reasons why they are leaning towards that Netflix bid.
I also think for Warner Brothers Discovery, the regulatory concerns about each bid are not really that...Steep.
And I'll, I'll tell you, talking to people in Washington the being close with Trump does not really mean much because Trump can direct his DOJ to sue to block a merger, sure.
At the end of the day, an independent judge is going to have to make that call. So h- Trump...
Like for example, there were a lot of reports that Trump directed his DOJ to sue AT&T Time Warner, and the judge did not back the DOJ, and that merger went through.
So I think the Paramount folks are trying to spin this like, you know, Netflix has such a tough regulatory hill to climb, and I think the Warner Bros. Discovery board is thinking to itself, "What?
You, you don't think we have lobbyists that can tell us what's actually gonna happen here?"
So I, I, I think, a- and Lucas Shaw reported this the other day, that this might ta- this might take a lot longer than people had anticipated. The one thing I feel pretty certain of, Brian, is no matter who
ends up ultimately being the dance partner to Warner Bros. Discovery, I think it gets investigated.
I do think that there's likely a chance that the DOJ sues to block either, which means that for me, I'll end up in Pettiman Court in Washington, DC for a trial. Oh, yeah. [laughs] In some time in late next year.
Yeah, yeah. Yes. You're, you're gonna be bringing your baby to, to the- these hearings for [laughs] without, without a doubt. This is gonna last longer, I, I'm sad to say, than the Olivia Nu- Is it Nuzzi or Nuzzi? Nuzzi.
Yeah, that one's already done. That one's done. But is it Nuzzi? I think it's Nuzzi. Is it Nuzzi? I, I, I was saying Nuzzi and then Dylan Byers said Nuzzi and s- when we did a podcast together, so I don't know.
I'm just gonna go with Nuzzi then. I think it's gonna last longer than the Olizzia Nuzzi- Olivia Nuzzi, 'cause I- unfortunately that's over.
It felt, it only lasted two full weeks, but it felt like it lasted two full years. Well, where's the end of POTUS?
And Brian- You know, he ke- he, he teased eight POTUS and now it's, it just felt, it's just like we're like mid, mid this, you know, serialized se- season. It's just bizarre.
I was just gonna say, on this taking a really long time, I think this is one of the main reasons why Comcast is like, "Mic drop, we're out."
Like, I don't think anyone should expect Comcast to try to come back into this because they see how messy and how long this is gonna take, and they don't need this deal.
There was no downside to them putting a bid in, but there is downside to them getting into this, you know, big bidding war, wasting time, wasting resources. So I think it's definitely down to two players for good.
So I wanna... Lachlan, I want you to like talk about this but from the personality, 'cause w- we've, I- I've written about like media persons, and like we need, we need media people, and- 100%...
and, and we need heroes and villains, and you, you've got that. I'm all of that characters, uh, Breaker. Yeah. And- So who are the characters, who are the characters?
'Cause this is gonna, unfortunately, this is gonna be with us. From, from everything that Sarah is saying, this is gonna be with us all through 2026.
I mean, I might have a baby by the po- the time that this, this whole thing- [laughs] This whole thing is, uh, I might have met a bloke and we might have found a surrogate and had the baby by the time. Yeah. Yeah.
This thing keeps going. No, I think this is why I love this, this yarn, mate.
It's you've got Zaz, who, you know, up until recently seemed to be the most hated man in Hollywood and now looks like he might have the, the last laugh in, in all of this. Yeah. And, and- Annie Port in a storm. Yeah.
[laughs] And then you've got the Ellisons who are kind of carving out this turf, this territory as if they're like the new Murdochs.
And I think, you know, from my vantage point, we're acting incredibly arrogantly about this deal as if it was already a done deal.
And you've got Larry with the TikTok connection, which is now also plays into Murdoch, which Lachlan Murdoch is now a part of that.
And then you've got his son, David, and then his, you know, first two acquisitions were the UFC and the Free Press with Bari Weiss, and now her beefy bodyguards.
So, you know, I love this yarn because it is character rich, and then you've also got Ted Sarandos and Netflix, who also seems to be, you know, a fairly disliked bloke within the creative community in Hollywood.
So, you know, for me it's, it's a cracking character driven yarn. Yeah. So Sarah, I know you are a CNN contributor, right? Mm-hmm. That, that we've already disclosed that.
There was obviously a lot of consternation that was in CNN about their fate under Paramount owning them. I mean, Paramount, obviously Bari Weiss got brought in there- And the beefy bodyguards...
to, to run CBS Don't forget them. And the beefy bodyguards who Lachlan is, is close friends with. [laughs] Bari also emerged as a, a, a media, a media person.
Like, you know, I mean, she's obviously always been a media person, but I think she is a character and she has a lot of good... She's got a g- a lot of good traits that make her a compelling character, right?
Where do you see that? That, I think that was one of the stories of this year, Bari Weiss coming in, the acquisition of the Free Press, and how that is going to play out.
Now, CBS News to me is a distressed as- asset from yes- yesteryear. I'm not sure if anyone can necessarily make it as culturally relevant as it used to be. What w- how do you evaluate that story, Sarah?
I think David has a personal affinity to the state of Israel, and so I think he- Which David? Ellison Ellison. And so I think he was very partial to the n- news/opinion content that comes from the Free Press.
And I also think that Bari reaches an audience of like these sort of libertarian rich people that his peers also were tuned into her, and so he personally liked her and liked the coverage.
I think in bringing her on, obviously there's a k- there's a sense that this is, from a regulatory perspective, going to help me curry favor with conservatives.
And I also think that he believes that CBS News, as she believes, needs to be, you know, brought more towards the center.
The, the kind of pushback I've always given to that state of mind and that kind of thinking- Mm-hmm... 60 News has been the, 60 Minutes has been the number one news program in America for 50 seasons.
CBS has affiliates mostly in the SoutheastRegion of the United States. That's why a lot of its programming is, is kind of honestly leans a little bit more right.
If you think about Paramount with Yellowstone and all of that, and then some of its primetime programming, you know, it's not super progressive. It's a lot of, like, Big Brother and Survivor.
So to me, this, this assertion that CBS needed to be moved into the center is, is interesting.
I think within CBS, what I'm hearing is there's a lot of trepidation around to what extent this sort of hybrid opinion news content gets integrated into what's pure play news, and to what extent are people who are currently at CBS comfortable with that.
I think people don't wanna push back 'cause they don't want to lose their jobs, but I do think there's discomfort. Yeah. Well, Lachlan, you've reported on this. And, and discontent throughout the industry.
The workers are discontent. Like, and they have been discontent for a long time. This, this industry is compressing, and that-- and, and, and grumpy to begin with, and that compression is, is painful in a lot of places.
I mean, we have seen this from everywhere from The Wall Street Journal to CBS News- The Washington Post... these walkouts, The Washington Post.
I don't know if anywhere is, you know, full of, like, you know, super enthusiastic [laughs] content staff. Who's having fun out there? [laughs] Yeah. Seriously. Yeah.
Look, I think w- as it pertains to, to, to Barry Weiss and the beefy bodyguards and CBS News, I, I, I think a lot of people are, you know, I think still grappling with the fact that, you know, here's someone without broadcast experience, here's someone that in meetings is suggesting things like, "Oh, how about we go and book, you know, the Louvre heist has happened.
Why don't we book Dan Brown, who wrote a fictional book about a murder at the Louvre 20 years ago, 'The Da Vinci Code.' Why don't we go book him?"
You know, even the, even the hirings that we've seen, Matt Gutman from ABC being brought across as chief correspondent. You know, I, I don't think m- m- many people could pick Matt Gutman out of a lineup.
And then Tony Dokoupil is now gonna lead the CBS Evening News, which has always been third place. So, you know, good luck with that.
I, I, I think there's still this kind of suspicion or skepticism about Barry Weiss's chops in leading a broadcast news division. Yeah. So Sarah, are we, are we gonna see more sort of unrest in the ranks in 2026?
It seems like a safe bet. Oh, yeah. There's gonna be unrest in the ranks for a ton of reasons.
I mean, for one, you have this whole free press thing, but for two, I think President Trump is gonna continue to rail after CBS, despite the fact that they settled $16 million with him for a lawsuit that legal experts say they could have won.
And so there's a frustration there of, like, why did we settle? Why did we drive out top executives at 60 Minutes only to still get railed on? Like, that's a huge problem for them.
And then I also think the Paramount merger causes a lot of frustration and stress because these are people who just went through the whole Skydance rigmarole and had to-- and felt like their company had to make concessions ri- from a reg- to regulators to get it done.
Do they wanna have to go through that all over again? No. So it's gonna be... It's gonna be a very challenging year for the folks at CBS News, and I have a lot of empathy for them. Yeah.
And I wonder about in 2026 is whether we start to see the correction, 'cause I think you were talking about it a little bit.
Like, we're- we've seen this shift from institutions to individuals, and the question is always, like, how the rebundling is going to take place.
And I just- I th- I think that's what we're on the e- the, the edge of here. I, I th- Yeah... we're, we're, we're living through this great unbundling, and I think what comes next is the great bundling.
And I could see a scenario where some of these independents drift back into legacy media organizations because those legacy places want some of these creations.
I can also see a scenario where someone comes in and bundles a bunch of us up together. I mean, I do miss being in a newsroom, and that's why I now have a- Yeah... have a, a contributing editor gig with Vanity Fair.
Because I do wanna do some of these bigger pieces that, that I need the rigor of a legacy institution with the, with the lawyers and the checkers and the, the, the e- le- levels of editors and designers and photography.
You know, I still wanna do those, those bigger pieces, and only a, a certain handful of places can give me those resources. Yeah. I mean, they, they, they were looking for a little juice.
They went out, they got Olivia Nuzzi, they got you. Like, so they, they, they kept you. They di- they didn't keep o- Olivia- Yeah, I, I, I-... unfortunately...
I, I said to them, "I can't bring you a sex scandal," so not, not, yep, not yet. [laughs] Sarah, what about you? What do you... Do, do you think we'll see more of the rebundling next year?
Because, like, a lot of the energy has moved, it, it seems to me, from, like, institutional media to the individuals. There's just more energy in the sort of, I don't know what to call it. It's not creator exactly.
But it's, it's, like, the new kinds of independents, right? Like, I look at, like, some- somewhere like TBPN, right? Right. There's an energy about that, you know, about that brand.
I don't think you can necessarily say that about, say, I don't know, s- CBS News or, like, a lot of- Yep...
legacy publications that, particularly with, with page view models, that, you know, frankly, they feel like, you know, they're constantly just trying to figure out, like, there's just this existential angst about them.
They're playing catch up. And that... Yeah. And that comes at a cost of just, like, feeling like they, they, they're, like, low energy. I don't know what the- 100%. I, I, I couldn't agree more.
I think actually where you're gonna see some rebundling is just on the business side. I have a friend who launched a business where he's essentially selling brand partnerships on behalf of a bunch of different creators.
You see the Vox Media podcast network picking up- Yeah... steam because they're selling advertising and doing distribution and marketing on behalf of a bunch of podcasters.
You're seeing Beehive creating collectives where they can help these-Creators get advertising dollars. Even Substack is announcing that it's sort of testing native brand sponsorships.
So to me, the bundling is happening on the business side because they know that these creators need shared resources to be able to make money. Do I think that the bundling is going to happen within newsrooms?
What's interesting is some newsrooms are kind of trying it, like the Washington Post is, you know, trying to do this third newsroom type of business side thing where they roll up a bunch of creators.
The challenge they're gonna face is you have to convince creators that you, legacy media company, are a better place for them to be than a creator collective like Beehive. And I think very few creators buy it.
It's gonna be incredibly difficult for them to land those kinds of people. Yeah. I mean, Lachlan, we've talked about this, like, casually, right? I mean, you always have...
You have legacy institutions that go out to people like you or, or others who are independent, and they wanna sort of rebundle you, and you're like, "Wait a second, mate." Like, I'm [laughs]... You're like the pirate.
You're like, "I'm in cha- I'm the captain now." [laughs] Yeah, I'm, I'm having too much fun to be, to be bundled up or, or tickled up or whatever the, the terminology is.
[laughs] You know, I'm, I'm having way too much fun, you know, building Breaker in my own, in, in my own stead.
Having said that, you know, dealing with, like, I can't log in, I didn't get the email last night, I need a refund, like, there are some days where I'm like, ugh, I really could do with, with some of the, the infrastructure that, you know, only a legacy place ca- can offer.
So there is that kind of, you know, trade-off. Okay, so last thing. I want each of you to give me a, a publica- some kind of, of a media brand. Okay? It doesn't have to be, like, an institutional media company.
It can be a person. It could be a Substacker. It can be a YouTuber. It can be anyone who makes media. It could be a company, I don't care, that you find compelling. Sarah, do you wanna start?
Some sort of media company person that I find compelling? Yeah. I mean, I'm in DC, so I listen to the Punchbowl podcast every single morning. It's like I c- I can't not have that in my life.
And once you get somebody hooked on a daily habit of something you cannot not have in your life, then that is extraordinarily compelling.
And then on terms of, like, the media business side, because I care a lot about covering the industry- Mm-hmm...
with all of the stuff going on, with all of these, you know, mergers and things like that, the equity analysts and researchers have become even more powerful and important to me, like the MoffettNathansons of the world and all the reports that I get from UBS.
There's no way you can manage coverage responsibly, in my opinion, without really understanding all of the, like, nooks and crannies around some of these deals that the analysts are just so...
They're some of the best equipped people to provide that information. Yes, 100%. Lachlan. E- Emily Sundberg and, and Feed me.
I mean, it's incredibly impressive in the space of three years what, what Emily has, has built. And I was at a third-year anniversary shindig the o- the other night.
I, it's very rare that I'm in a, in a situation with someone and they don't bring up Emily Sundberg and, and Feed me and ask me, you know, my thoughts on her- Agree... how she's done this. She's a hustler.
She, she, she is a hustler. Yeah. And what she's built is a club. It, it is a club that people wanna be a part of. The newsletter is one part of it. The events are another. The merch, her chat i- is, is, is, is another.
And, and it's phenomenal. In just the space of three years that she has built this club i- in, in Feed me. The, the other one is, and you were kind of scooped me here, the TBPN blokes- Yeah...
who, who, again, have sort of captured the conversation in such a unique way, and I, you know, I think they would also say they're not reporters.
But what they have done is they have created, you know, something that, that is highly appealing to people in the tech world to, to, to go on and to be interviewed, and again, in, in sort of a warp speed time, become a thing.
Yeah. I think, I think what they've gotten right is they've taken what's basically a trade publishing model and, and modernized it. You know?
I mean, they, they create for a universe, and they've said this, of, like, 200,000, and that's being very generous. It's probably actually, like, 20,000. Right.
And it's just happens to be the most powerful and influential set [laughs] of people in the world right now.
And, and then you get a bunch of people who come along, but the key is to stay focused on that, like, say, 20,000. They're cool.
And it's, it's different for everyone, but I think if there's, like, a thread of the models that are working the best right now, it seems to be that they are focused on a relatively, you know, confined small group of, of people.
They... It might... You, you attract a lot of others around that, you know, in media, but it seems like that is the model that is, is most successful at this moment. They're, they're also authentic.
And, and, and it's clear to me those two blokes actually- Sure... like each other, unlike most morning, you know, breakfast TV personalities here who [laughs] fucking hate each other's guts.
It's clear those two blokes get along. It's clear that they, you know, have a, a, a great working relationship. And, and you just get a sense that they're really enjoying it and having fun, and I think that's appealing.
Yeah, totally. Yeah, and one thing they've got that Emily Sundberg also has, which, Lachlan, I totally agree with you about Emily, these are extroverted people.
It used to be that journalists were expected to be weird and not social and not good at creating community and developing relationships.
The new age of the journalist is somebody who can cultivate audiences and make them feel like they're part of communities. Like, you can't be a weirdo anymore. Honestly, you have to be really social. Sad.
And both of those have that. I'm sorry, weirdos out there. You gotta be Lachlan standing on the bar at, at a burrito joint- Vivid Burrito... downtown. [laughs] And that's just how it goes, you know?
Like, it starts with you gotta be able to moderate a panel, and next thing you know, you're on top of the bar [laughs] shouting out thank yous.
[laughs] I'm usually on top of the bar twerking, but, uh, that night I was- [laughs] Different world Lachlan, you are always, you are always, though, I will say, like, the life of the party. Oh, thanks, Sarah.
Appreciate it. Yeah, but no, I think that's a great point because that, to me, like, the la...
Like, the mo- a lot of times when people talk about, like, personality, and that's the part that, in personal brand, that journalists sort of hate, but the... I, I, I think it's something other than that.
Like, it's ac- accessibility, right? And just, like, being, like, an authentic, normal person, right? And, like, journalists, the reason that people like to talk with jour- journalists are generally interesting.
They might be a little cynical and disorganized. And we, and we know stuff.
I've been at events where I've seen, you know, people just come up to Sarah and, and ask her her, you know, take on what's going on in the industry because she's so incredibly well plugged in.
And, and I think, you know, people do wanna have that, that interface with, with the, the, the bylines. Yes. And so while Sarah, we'll, we'll bring this full circle.
While I don't think that you are, like, a personal brand like that, that gives you a lot of leverage, and you've recognized that over the years because you are front and center.
You are, like, all over the place, you know? You do, you do have to be all over the place. I will say, like, the, the one thing that you have to do when you're a reporter is be on the front lines. Yeah.
It's the same thing as when I was in sales. You have to be where the story is. We have to be where the s- the sources are. That's right. You can't hide behind a keyboard anymore, and that excites me and gives me energy.
But if it doesn't excite you and give you energy, you're gonna have a h- tough time in this new era of journalism. Yeah. Time to find another gig. Perfect note to end it on. Time to find another gig. All right.
Thank you both. I'm glad we got this done. Cheers. Thanks, Brian. Thanks. Bye. Thank you all. [outro music]