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[on-hold music] Welcome to the Rebooting show. I am Brian Morrissey.

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Local news is the hardest of the hard of all the problems in building sustainable news businesses, and I think you know the narrative.

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We've got shrinking newsrooms, we got news deserts, and of course, there's our friends in private equity and hedge funds that are consolidating a lot of assets.

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But there are, of course, always exceptions, and I think this is an area that is attracting real media operators that are gonna build real businesses, and it's probably an area that is due for a grip.

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So I wanted to talk with Josh Schneps because Schneps Media has been at this for a long time. I mean, it began as a community newspaper in Queens, the borough of New York City, by Josh's mother.

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It grew out of actually her own sort of community activism. And it, it's, it's grown to become one of the largest local media companies in New York.

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It now spans borough-specific community news brands like QNS and Brooklyn Paper, and it's got citywide reach through AM New York.

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It's got lots of niche verticals, and of course it has a, an events engine that Josh and I get to that, that runs a lot of events, and that's what you gotta do. And of course, as we talk about, print still matters.

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You know, local... I feel like the, the death of print is exaggerated when it comes to local, 'cause I regularly talk with entrepreneurs on this show who tell me that print is still the mainstay of their business.

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That is, of course, an opportunity and a risk, and we discuss that. And of course, you know, this is just one channel. Schneps does newsletters. As I said, they do events.

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They put a real premium on being physically present in their community. Josh describes their role as something of a chamber of commerce on steroids.

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So we get into what the real local news playbook is, why hyperlocal, you know, only works when you're all in the economics of print in twenty twenty-five, how trust is built through brand familiarity, why events are the most durable revenue stream that Schneps Media has, and what changes and what doesn't in a future increasingly mediated by AI.

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We also get into the limits of the newsletter-only approach to local, which we see out there a lot, why nonprofit newsrooms tend to struggle when business discipline is optional, and how Josh thinks about, you know, playing the long-term game in this business, 'cause it is critical.

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So I hope you enjoy this conversation. I really did with Josh. As always, would love to have your feedback. My email is brian@therebooting.com.

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And if you do like this show, please share it with someone and also leave a rating and a review on Apple or Spotify or wherever you get the podcast. Now, here's my conversation with Josh.

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[on-hold music] All right, Josh, happy that you're doing this. Yeah, no, it's a pleasure to be here. I really appreciate the opportunity. Thank you so much.

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Okay, so for those who do not know Schneps Media, give me, give me the capsule of the company and, and the local properties that you run. Yeah. So Brian, you know, it, it's really a great story.

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You know, my mom founded the business starting a newspaper out of our house. I was seven years old. My mom was a huge community activist. My oldest sister was born mentally handicapped at birth.

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And this was in the sixties, and it was my parents' first child. They didn't know what to do. They sent her to an institution, turned out to be terrible.

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Geraldo Rivera brought his cameras into the institution and showed the world what was going on when my mom was protesting outside.

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As soon as Geraldo put it on television, at that point, you know, [chuckles] at that point in time, if you put something on TV, most of the United States of America saw it.

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My father followed- Are you mentioning that just because I brought up Geraldo Rivera before we started this podcast? [laughs] No, it was a huge coincidence.

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I thought maybe you saw the history of our company, and that's why you said it. No. But, you know, long story short, my father filed a class action lawsuit. Institutions became group homes and day programs.

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A lot of people have been impacted by that across the country 'cause now there are day programs for people with autism or people with mental disabilities. But that stuck with my mom.

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She was a school teacher, and she saw the power of the press, and she literally decided to start a community newspaper in Little Neck, Whitestone, Queens. And little by little, you know, she grew it.

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I, uh, at a college as an investment banker, I never interned. [chuckles] And when I started investment bank, I realized I hated it. And after just a little while, I went to go work for my mom.

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And, you know, it was a great opportunity because it was such a small business. I did everything. I did photography, I did writing, I did door-to-door sales in a suit and tie.

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My mom made me wear a suit and tie every day. And I got to really understand local journalism.

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I think one of the things that differentiates us from everybody, and I'll get to where we are today, but is that my mom always treated the business as almost like I, I call us a chamber of commerce on steroids, meaning that we have roots that go so deep into each of the communities that we serve because we attend everything and we host things.

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So we bring together people, and we cover people. And I think that that's one of, like, the key powers of successful local media.

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And I think anybody that's successful in local media is probably doing some shape or form of that. Slowly over time, believe it or not, News Corp, my sister worked for News America Marketing, which was part of News Corp.

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Yeah. And the New York Post said, "We're gonna go around and buy every community newspaper that's family-owned in New York City." So they told my mom they'd give her a one-year contract, and she told them to get lost.

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They ended up buying all the other family-owned or the majority of the family-owned media.

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A few years later, we ended up buying them all back, and we owned a majority of local news, let's say, in, in New York City.And then we ended up buying AM New York from the owner of Newsday, and then we ended up buying its competitor, Metro.

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They were side by side- Yeah... in the subways. You know, Metro- Oh, I remember. I mean, I was, you know, they were outside m-my stop on ninety-sixth Street and Broadway. Yeah. You know, it was like dueling. Yeah.

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And you know, that gave us actually more heft online, because it's really hard to gain [chuckles] a lot of traffic when you have these local websites.

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So we have QNS for Queens, we have Brooklyn Paper for Brooklyn, we have B- BX Times for the Bronx. But amny.com really gave us more heft in terms of just getting scale and traffic in, in our geographic area.

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And slowly but surely, we just started making f- more acquisitions, digital and print largely.

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And then we started, my mom started doing events years ago, like twenty-five years ago, where she was like, at an event, they didn't honor women. She started Queens Top Ten Women in Business.

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And now we do about fifty of those events a year, almost every week. Like tonight, I'm honoring labor leaders of New York. So we're- All right...

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constantly doing these kind of business to business and business to consumer-facing events. We do everything from, like what I was saying, the labor leaders to food and wine events all summer in the Hamptons.

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So it's been a great extension of our business, the events, and certainly, you know- Yeah... something that differentiates us from everyone around. But I think, you know, we've really focused on being excellent in print.

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We still print over half a million newspapers a week.

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You know, excellent in, in digital and being, you know, digital first in our newsroom and events, you know, really being the best at what we do with, with these events. Yeah. So you have like...

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It's, it's like a hyperlocal model in some ways. Absolutely. I mean, there's, there's- Yes... AM New York, which is, is, is the entire city, but like you're in, you're in the neighborhoods.

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Yeah, Brooklyn, Queens, the Bronx, Manhattan, Staten Island. You know, each one has its own editor, each one has its own reporters, and then they, you know, support each other.

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We have other niches, Caribbean Americans, Spanish language, LGBTQ, family media, which has been a great, you know, group for us. Okay.

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So, you know, having a diverse group of media in a, you know, geographic area has really, I think, been very successful for us. Okay. So let's get into the, the sort of playbook, right?

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Because the local is the hardest of the hard, right? [laughs] And I think just the sheer... Now you're [chuckles] like laughing, like knowingly. Right.

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But like, you know, I mean that's like the, the, the sort of outside perception of it, right? And there's a lot of talk of news deserts, et cetera.

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New York City is, is, is different in that it's, it's obviously, it's incredibly dense and- Yeah... th-there's a lot of opportunities within, within New York.

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But talk to me about like what the sort of playbook is, because like while you have to get very local, like I love the idea of like what I'm like thinking of a proximity media, right? Yeah.

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And so like you have a real proximity to your audience, and usually that involves, you know, physical proximity, right? But ultimately, I believe like, you know, you are a, a sort of pragmatic mercenary, right?

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You wanna- [laughs] You wanna make this a business. Well read. Well read. Yeah. Yeah.

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I mean, listen, at the end of the day, everybody talks about local and it's being talked on a national scale, which is interesting, right? When I look at local, like y-you can't...

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I have not been able to figure out anything that I've seen that can work literally neighborhood by neighborhood. Is it important to have coverage that's local? For sure.

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But I don't know that you can really have a business if you're, you know, too local and not have a lot more on top of that. Even if you have a bunch of them, it gets really hard.

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I mean, New York City, again, is very unique in that we have massive population, but it's also difficult because sometimes when you get into like urban areas, it, it gets harder for advertising. Yeah.

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Because people are paying huge rents. You know, they're paying rents.

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They, they're, they're in those neighborhoods 'cause they know they have visibility or foot traffic or, you know, any one of those other, you know, scenarios. Yeah.

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And your advertising base is local businesses for the most part. Local and regional. Yeah. I mean, healthcare- Okay... is huge for us. Yeah. That's probably our biggest category, depending on where we are.

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We have a lot of media out in the Hamptons. We own Dan's Papers out there, which is kind of an institution, and we get a lot of real estate and home improvement. So that's another category.

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And then definitely, you know, banks. You know, everything from JPMorgan down to JPMorgan Chase down to like your local community bank. Those are probably the three biggest categories. Okay. And print- For us...

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is still, is still very much a profit driver, I'm, I'm getting the impression. Yeah. Print is definitely a viable business.

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It has to be run really well, and I think when we had spoken earlier, I said you really have to have a bunch of them for it to make sense. Yeah. Otherwise, it just, the, the, the numbers don't work.

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But I, I'm a very big believer of multi-platform. I mean, I don't have to tell you, you, you do it yourself, but I think it can't be one thing. You can't just have a website- Mm-hmm... in local.

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You can't just have a website. You can't just have a newspaper. You can't just host an event.

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You have to kind of put them all together to be able to, I believe, have a viable business on the, on a, on a local media company. Yeah.

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I mean, there's like a vogue in newsletters for, for, for hyperlocal newsletters, you know? Yeah. I mean- And-...

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listen, the way I look at it is I'm g- I've built a media company I believe, and I'm continuing to try to do that, where it's, it, it, I have a defensive moat too.

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So if somebody wants to come in with an email newsletter in a market like mine, I don't know how they'll be successful.

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And if they are, like, I need to like follow their playbook, 'cause if you're able to come into my market with AI, one or two, or maybe even three people to develop an email newsletter, you shouldn't be able to be better than me.

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Yeah. And I think there's- Now, maybe there's other markets that are so deserted that they have nothing- Yeah. I mean, if there's like not the-... that they can come in with an AI email or even one or two people.

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I mean, you know, there's a lot of people in communities that, you know, that, that have decent, you know, let's call it blogs or websites.

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So coming in even with an email newsletter in those markets, I, I don't knowI, I don't know how it sounds good because everybody wants to figure out local and how to scale it, but how viable that will be in, call it, five years, we'll see.

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Yeah. And so, and sticking on print, like, tell me about its central role, right? Because print is... Yeah, I mean, most people think it's an anachronistic, right?

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And that a, you know, basically it's going in one direction, it's not up for the most part. Listen, it's not about readership. You know, a lot of people are like, "Oh, people still read papers."

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You know, we distribute 90,000 AM New Yorks when we come out every day, right? 90,000 copies. We have less than like 2% return. So people are willing to read a, a product, especially if it's quality.

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You know, it has strong graphics, it has great content, it has stories they can't necessarily get everywhere. I don't think that that's the issue.

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The issue, of course, is advertising, where the advertisers are choosing to put their ads. And, and some categories have completely gone away.

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But I think if you have really good penetration in communities, you put out a quality product, and you understand who your demographic is, you can still sell advertising. Yeah.

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Um, especially- But I mean, the, the advertisers still want print. I mean, otherwise you wouldn't be doing it, obviously.

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I think, I think certainly, like, those categories I told you about, those top three, no question about it. I think when it gets into, you know, classified, automotive, even restaurants now, right?

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'Cause they have to be on some of those delivery apps, even though they sometimes feel they're getting raped by the margins they have to give up.

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But, you know, there are certain categories that I won't say completely have gone away, but will not be the future of print.

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But I think that there's plenty of others that, you know, if you can show them that they have enough reach, you know, and that they're gonna get responses.

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'Cause, you know, one thing about small business owners, they know when they get a response. You know, when you, when you're selling an ad to somebody who... And which is not always the case for us. Yeah.

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Thankfully, we deal with larger regional businesses.

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But when you're dealing with a local business, like, they know what works, 'cause they're the ones that are, like, picking up the phone or, you know, the, you know, executing the orders that are coming through their website or whatever else it might be.

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So I think as long as you can give people a product that's worth the investment and give them enough reach, that you can be successful.

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Because sometimes it's also not about mass reach, it's just about the quality of the audience. Like, we have some media that just goes door to door to very specific communities.

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We can get the same rate for that as, you know, media that we have that has, you know, 20,000, 30,000 served. Yeah. And so i- is events a... Are, are they, like, a big growth area that you're seeing?

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I mean, you do a lot of them. I mean, if you're doing hyperlocal, you're gonna be doing a lot of everything. And I remember- Yes, yes...

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when we were talking when you were at the soccer game, like, y- i- the sheer number, I was like, wow, this is stressful. [laughs] Well, you know, we have different teams, and we have a team that just does events. Yeah.

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And I think one of our successes with events is, you know, you make enough mistakes and you fix those mistakes, you start to get good at them. Oh, yeah. So we've been doing it for a long time.

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I used to say that, you know. The, the last, the last time I had a job at a company, you know, we did, like, a ton of events. Yeah. And I, I used to say to our team, like, that was our biggest competitive advantage.

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I said, everyone else, they're doing an event and they won't do another one for six months. We got one the next week. We can do... We can screw up way more than they can. [laughs] Yeah. Yeah.

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I mean, listen, also makes you really good because you improve, you know, each time that you're hosting these. But again, I think it's really a combination because I don't fool myself.

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I think that a lot of people love to participate in our events because they like the publicity they get from our other media. So, you know- Right...

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I think it's all of it combined, is my point, that really helps drive our business, and I think that is, like, the key to being, you know, a successful local media company from my experience. Right.

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So how do you end up thinking about... 'Cause I know you talked about the origins, right, with your mom.

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Like, and how do you think about balancing the civic impact, which is always sort of front and center, I feel like, when we talk about local, with the business, right? I mean, like- Yeah...

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you know, you have to build sustainable, profitable businesses. And, you know, sometimes I think people focus on the civic impact almost too much in some ways because, you know, you've gotta be...

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That's why I sort of joke, like, you gotta be a little bit, you know, ruthless. We're, we're in a capitalistic system. Sure.

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And I personally, I think that there is a role for nonprofit models and being funded through philanthropy and whatnot, but I'm also a realist when it comes to America and how it [laughs] operates. Sure.

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Well, listen, I think some of the downfalls of the nonprofit newsrooms that I've seen is that they're not run by business people. Yeah.

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I'm not saying that journalists shouldn't play a major role, especially in, you know, the coverage, but should they be running a business? A nonprofit is a nonprofit, it's still a business. Right.

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You know, you still have to cover your expenses.

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So I think that I've seen a lot of newsrooms that may not be run by business people to say, all right, how are we thinking about this from the revenue side, not just the journalistic, you know, impact that it's gonna have?

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Because you kinda need both to have a sustainable model. I think with us, you know, we try to be covering as much as we can in the community.

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I think one of the things that we're definitely aware of is the, you know, the political divide. You know, the, you know, sometimes we do a story, it's like a no-win situation, right?

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You know, one story, the Republicans are unhappy, right? Another story, the Democrats are unhappy. Readers aren't happy.

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You know, that's definitely something that you have to be aware of, and I think, you know, make sure that your coverage is balanced or, like you've seen a lot of media which is not local, but that just skew in one direction completely.

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So I think with local, like, we wanna be that balance where, you know, we're not looked at as, you know, serving one side or another. And I think that's just something to be aware of.

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And I also think, you know, as a local media company, we have to cover the businesses you kinda talked about, like, you know, being a business. Yeah.

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Because, you know, business, small business particularly, I think, in America has great stories.And they're not really covered. Like [chuckles] we're probably the ones covering them.

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Unless something really bad happens or something really amazing happens, maybe other media will pick up on it.

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So I think we do have to play a part in covering businesses both for our readership and as well as just, you know, positive outcome on the business side, developing relationships. Yeah.

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And I also think when it comes to the civic impact, it's, it's balancing the, the kind of impact work which is, is, is usually about the government and how the government is operating, and that's very important, and then with, you know, the other stuff, what to do this weekend, food- Sure...

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you know, like- I mean, listen-... things in life... it's, it's scary. It's like every media, you know?

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Something like, you know, someone runs down Main Street naked, you know, will get much more traffic than covering a community board meeting. Mm-hmm.

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So sometimes it's the sad reality of the world in which we live in, and I think you have to find that balance and have editors that really understand it, and understand, like, hey, how do we create something that's really high quality, respected, a- and, and balanced?

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So I think there's always, like, judgment, you know, in there in terms of how much you're gonna do one thing versus another, but I think one of the things we're trying to become is much more sophisticated in terms of not just what's gonna drive a ton of traffic, 'cause we're not never gonna be that mass traffic audience.

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What I think we're trying to become more sophisticated at, which I assume most media companies would want, is how do we find out what our most loyal readers are interested in? Yeah.

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Because I think at the end of the day, that's really gonna be the future for us is how do we put our arms around our most loyal audience, not just, you know, trying to get as many people as possible to, to read us in our market.

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Yeah, and that seems like... I mean, that's to me like the overall direction for pretty much all media businesses. Yeah.

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You know, the, the audience, you know, just having traffic models that, that first of all doesn't work anymore and, and now everything is about how do you devel- how do you develop a, a deep tie with specific audiences?

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And I think that in that way, local should be fairly well-positioned. I think the, the flip ha- the flip side of that is developing, you know, trust. And- Yes... you know, trust is talked about a lot.

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I think there is just m- more, you know, every, every single study that sort of comes out with like, you know, Axios will write about, it's like consumer trust in media is at a lowest it's been since the last, like, the last study on this.

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And how do you end up thinking about that, like, on the local level? Well, I think one of the things that we have, which is an advantage to print, are, are brands.

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You know, brands that people kind of have recognized over the years that have been around for a really long time, and I think there's something to that if you can evolve them properly.

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You know, if people all of a sudden, you know, realize that, hey, that, you know, newspaper, we own, like, the Ridgewood Times in Queens that goes back to, like, you know, 105 years- Yeah...

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but all of a sudden they're like, "Wait a minute, they're really good at, like, Instagram."

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You know, it-- to make sure that we're relevant I think is critically important to maintaining that kind of brand loyalty, you know, especially as we try to, like, you know, skew a little bit younger.

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I don't think we're ever gonna be [chuckles] you know, getting a lot of 20-somethings interested in, like, hyperlocal news, but I do think we have to be aware of, like, the, you know, the next generation of reader and how they're gonna consume us and making sure that, you know, we're more relevant than maybe, you know, an upstart that, that runs a social channel or that starts just covering the community.

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Yeah. So how do you think about that demographic challenge? 'Cause I mean, that's one that, like, sort of all local has to deal with.

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And, and I, I just think every business has to operate the current business while thinking about, like, and, and working towards rebuilding the sort of next business, right? Yeah.

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And I assume that you're, you know, you're... I don't know, what is the sort of subscriber demographic I wanna assume? Well, listen, you know, I mean, on the print side, we know we skew older.

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There, there's no question about it. We kind of embrace it. I think that's why, you know, I talk about those- How older, though? I mean, like, the ultimate involuntary churn or...? You know, really it depends.

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I mean, listen, when it gets really local, I mean, one of the things that, you know, you can do is make sure that you put kids' pictures in the paper. Like we own- I mean-...

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some, you know, neighborhoods in Nassau County, you call it the Gold Coast 'cause it's so wealthy there, but we own newspapers that are literally neighborhood by neighborhood, Great Neck, Manhasset, Roslyn, etc, Port Washington.

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And those neighborhoods, like, we, we definitely get involved in local sports and making sure that we put, you know, those kids that if they score a touchdown, like, they're, like, the front cover.

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So that's the way to get, like, younger parents definitely reading some of the print product. But I think the other part is just being very relevant digitally.

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You know, making sure that, you know, we have a product that's better than anyone else's when it comes to local news in those areas.

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That's why, you know, New York City, again, it's very unique, but we have both a citywide website and then, like, borough-specific websites, and all of those have content that's being published, you know, throughout the day every day, and I think that that is where we're capturing definitely a younger audience, where to go, what to do, things that are appealing to people.

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And then, you know, we're very big into email newsletters. Of course, you know, all of our content, we have about...

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I think we have over six hundred thousand now emails that go out every day to all different segments of our audience.

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And then, you know, social's definitely a big part of how people are consuming news, even though most people don't read anything, they just look at the headline, 'cause you could just look at the comments and realize, like, you don't, you did not click on that story.

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Yeah. You simply saw the picture and the headline. Yeah. But I think it's becoming, you know, very relevant.

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You know, I mean, listen, I think a lot of publishers still get, like, you know, worried about what happened with Facebook, could it happen with Instagram?

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Maybe Instagram and TikTok both competing has created this new environment that just has been, you know, maintaining and growing reach for a lot of people.Yeah.

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The short, the, the, the, the shift to short video is something that, you know, I've certainly been tracking, and I think it's filtering down to how particularly younger demographics, you know, get their information.

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They're, you know- Yeah... you see the studies and they're getting more information from Instagram and TikTok than, than ever before.

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And I know, you know, I avoid TikTok just 'cause I don't need, I don't need another addiction. To go down that rabbit hole, right? No, I just don- I know myself, I know my weaknesses.

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But, you know, e- even with Instagram, which I try to avoid as much as possible, you know, there's a lot, particularly o- on the local level, like that I- It's tremendous... get served.

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And a lot of times, you know, they're, they're kinda new style aggregation, you know, to me. Other people are doing the reporting, but I do think that there is probably some kind of user behavior that is shifting there.

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And I think, look, I don't think words as, as, as a word sell myself.

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Like, I don't think words are necessarily going away, but at the same time, it's pretty clear when you look at where a lot of these AI companies are going, that the interface is gonna shift increasingly to video as video- Sure...

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becomes m- more e- easier. Like, you know, it... They made it so easy to produce, like, text content. It's gonna be the same with video. They're gonna come- 100%. Yeah.

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No, that evolution's gonna happen really quick, and I think that's why I look at local probably the same way as any mass media is.

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We need to, like, be really thoughtful in terms of developing that connection with our loyal readers. Yeah. So how do you break down revenue? Is it like print, digital, event? It actually more or less is.

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Yeah, that, that's about right.

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You know, revenue, we're still over 50% of our revenue is from print, and then I would say it's, it's not even, but digital and events are pretty close in terms of making up the, the rest of it.

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You know, we have a lot of print products though, you know, I mean, a few dozen. But it still is a viable model. You know, I'll say that to people. You know, it just has to be run very efficiently.

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It's something that's not easy. But I will tell you that I think digital on a local level is gonna get exponentially harder to, to monetize, right? Because- Why is that?...

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all this, everything that you're talking about with AI. You know- Yeah... at the end of the day, like, are people buying banner and pile ads [chuckles] like on a local news site? Yeah, I know.

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And even if they are, is that gonna pay for a journalist's salary? So w- okay, you can't do that. I mean, sponsored content is definitely something that people are interested in.

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They want a safe haven for their, you know, stories, and they want them in, you know, a relevant market. So definitely that's a, a, a good part of our business, no question about it.

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But, you know, I mean, how much can you do? Right. So then you start to ask yourself, obviously there's email.

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But that's why when we look at our, you know, the cycles that all this media goes through, having the balance of still having print there is important.

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And I think just today, I, I picked up a copy, you know, some digital media companies are coming out with magazines. Yeah. So maybe they have different reasons for doing it.

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Maybe it's a, a revenue, maybe it's just publicity, maybe it's a little bit of both. But I think, listen, if you do it well, people will pick it up and read it, especially if you don't charge them.

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The majority of our media outlets are free. So we have exclusive distribution in the New York City subway stations with AM New York, and then we distribute like thousands of locations locally for these local media out.

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So we don't charge people. So I think, you know, the access that people can have to them, pick it up is, is something that I think is important.

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And then, you know, one of the things I'll tell you is like Dan's papers out in the Hamptons, like that print is not going away. Like- Oh, yeah...

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during the summer months, like we have like 400-page issues filled with ads. So, you know, I think people will look for a reason to disconnect. I'm not saying that this is like every day- Yeah...

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habit, but I think- Well, the Hamptons is a little-... if you come up with a product... the Hamptons is a little bit of a unique- It's a, it's an amazing market... local- Amazing...

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quote, unquote, "local market" at Riverhead. Definitely amazing. But I think people have realized that, listen, you can have a, a, a quality, financially stable print product if you think about it the right way.

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You know, like we- Yeah... have dailies and weeklies and monthlies and quarterlies, but some people, you know, have built models that are just, you know, on special events or around, you know, marketing packages.

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But I think if it's done well, people are still very much interested in it. The near me, Bal Harbour in, in- It's crazy... well, it's, I guess part of Miami Beach. Yeah.

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But like they have a population of like 3,000 people. They have, they have a big, they have a glossy magazine, right? Because the big luxury mall there is, is...

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Or the big, there's a big luxury mall that's there, and so they create an entire Bal Harbour magazine. So there, there's, there's definitely gonna be opportunities there. Tell me about running it right.

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You've mentioned that a few times. G- give me into the details about how you end up getting print to work, because it's more expensive for a bunch of different reasons to print. I mean, there's simply- Yeah...

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there are fewer places that literally can do it. Like, I mean, we've almost, we've almost lost... We talk a lot about, like, losing a lot of expertise in America right now.

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Like, I feel like we're losing a lot of print expertise. Yeah.

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I mean, listen, the majority of daily newspapers are owned by like a couple of companies, and, you know, they're, they're certainly looking at their bottom lines, and they've merged printing plants and closed plants across the country.

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So there's very few options actually for us to print.

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I went to go look maybe in the past of like changing printers, like, yeah, we could print you like, you know, you'd have to get us the, the daily paper like two days before.

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[chuckles] You know, I'm like, "I don't think that's gonna work." Yeah. "But thanks anyway." There's the new part of news that's important. But yeah. Listen, print definitely has its challenges.

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There's no doubt about it. I think, listen, from my perspective, local has to be very hands-on.

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I mean, um, maybe there's people that have figured out like a local model, and when I say local, I'm talking about like my local. I'm not talking about like regional media outlets, like really- Yeah... like local.

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I don't know how you can run them from afar or do them really well, you know, in an automated fashion.

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I, I really think it's like, like we're very involved, like with all the chambers of commerces.You know, covering their events, going to business openings.

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You know, it's, it's very much having a team that's engaged in the community, both from a journalistic point of view to get stories and, and just from an advertising perspective. Yeah.

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What do you, what are your thoughts on, on AI, right? Like, there are, there are people who are trying to, who are trying to use AI. Do, do you know this, like, Good Daily network?

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They have, like, 350 AI-generated local newsletters. 6AM City recently- Mm-hmm... purchased them. Listen, I think it's great that people are trying different models.

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I think AI is gonna change, you know, things exponentially very fast, and I, I think it's great that people are trying things. I just, again, I don't know if doing one, you know, automated thing per market is gonna work.

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I, I'm, I'm certainly gonna watch and see what comes of it.

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But again, I wanna be able to, you know, stay true to what I'm doing and say to myself that if somebody comes into my market, that they're not gonna be successful over me by doing something that's, you know, quote unquote, "automated."

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So I think we just have to stay true and really focus, I think, all the media companies on, like, what can you do better than anybody else, and how do you do that no matter, you know, the technology. So- Yeah...

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you know, we are trying to invest in making sure that we continually connect with our readers across all those platforms, and I think that that's, you know, for us, the differentiator. Yeah.

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So I, I had, I had just given some presentation last week on, on, like, things that the Jeff Bezos thing about, like, rather than focus on what's gonna change, focus on things that won't change, right, in five years, 'cause it's so much uncertainty, right?

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I mean, is one of the... Like, what are your bets on things that won't change, like, in five years? Oof. I mean, I love the face-to-face events. I don't think that that will change.

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I think, you know, people are hungry for information. You know, and they always will be, and I think they always wanna meet new people.

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So I mean, the event business, I think, again, will always be a very integral part of our media company because, again, I look at it as it feeds both ways. That certainly is not gonna go away.

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Can I say for sure [laughs] that, you know, print and websites and even email isn't gonna change dramatically? Sure it will. It will. I think that, you know, for, for, for a lot of our stuff, listen, I worried for...

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I, I've been working with my mom now in this business for 24 years, and I think I've worried about- Yeah... print going away for 24 years. [laughs] It's still here.

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So, you know, so I do think that there is a future 'cause now I'm looking backwards, right? And I'm saying to myself, "Listen, yes, things have changed.

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Yes, it's not gonna be what it was, but can it play a part in differentiating yourself and, and creating, you know, what is a very strong ecosystem in my market?" Yeah, I think so.

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I think it's around for, uh, uh, quite some time. Yeah. And I, I, I don't know. I, I think print will, will be around in five years.

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It'll be different, I'm sure, but I think y- you know, ultimately, like, people are going to look for a counterpoint to, to all this AI-mediated, you know, content that's all video and, and I'm still, I'm still a believer that words are gonna be with us.

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Listen, there'll still be billboards, I bet. So- Yeah... you know, I mean, if there can be, you know, if, if you can be some form of a way to get in front of a lot of people or, you know...

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I mean, we do stuff that's creative too, like guerrilla marketing combined with handing out the paper. People wrap the paper. They set up like a, you know, a newsstand and, you know...

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So there's, like, creative ways that you can incorporate print into, you know, a guerrilla campaign in a way that you know your market really well and can support brands with too.

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So I think, you know, creativity is gonna be very important. I think today even with print, you know, what, what are you putting in it? What's on the front cover? How are you distributing it?

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How can you, you know, distribute it? How do you come up with a package that's also digital? So I think, you know, it, it's, it's like everything else. I think you have to figure out what's gonna work for clients.

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So Schneps had been in Philadelphia. As someone from the area, I, I took note of that. But then you sold those and you decided to focus on New York. Talk about that. Yeah.

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So I had mentioned to you that when we bought AM New York, we also bought Metro.

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So the owner of Metro came to us when we bought AM New York and they're like, "We're either buying you or you're buying us, but we don't wanna compete." Okay.

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So we ended up buying w- them, and it also included Philadelphia. So we merged New York City into one newspaper, but we also own Philadelphia. And I bought it, like, right before the pandemic started.

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And we had looked at a lot of different ways at how do we grow that business.

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And again, like, that kind of mentality that I have of having a cluster of media outlets across print, digital, and events, I think was really important. And I kinda made the decision in Philadelphia, either

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I have to scale and get, you know, more reach, and that would really only be done, I think, through acquisitions. I think it's really hard to start something from scratch, even digitally.

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And I was approached at one point by someone to, to, to sell the company, to buy the company, and that fell through. So when that fell through, I kinda, like, opened my mind to, like, selling it.

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And I said to myself, "I think it's the right thing if I could find somebody who has media already in that market," and that's what happened.

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And I think for me it was also like, you know, there's gonna be a lot of change happening, and I feel like New York City is, you know, Long Island's greatest market in the US as far as I'm concerned.

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Sorry if anybody else feels differently, but- [laughs]... it is very unique and definitely the biggest, right?

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So I think there's a lot more that we need- we can do and have to focus on over these next, you know, call couple years even as AI, I think, is gonna be having a huge impact on our, our business. Okay.

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So- But I think, I think the point is, is that, A, you have to diversify. I, I realized that I couldn't do that without really investing a lot of time and energy in that, and that would probably take away from New York.

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And I think, you know, being focused and having that focus on, on my business here I think is, is-The main point of it. Yeah. What do, what do you make of models like what Axios is doing on the local level?

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It's, it's very different. You know, I mean, you're talking about, you know, getting, you know, dirt under the, under the nails of being like completely in it, like on a very hyperlocal level.

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You know- Listen, I, I- Their, their play is more, okay, we're gonna take our national brand relationships.

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Yes, they have, you know, Bank of America or whatnot, and they're gonna say, "Hey, we can also add a local component." So what I'll say is I love when anybody invests in local. I think that's always a positive.

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You can't... You know, there's no reason to hate on that. Yeah. I will tell you that I watched it because it started in Philadelphia while I owned the business in Philadelphia.

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And it was a good email, but I'm saying to myself, "Can you build a business on that email?" It's a bunch of aggregation, like three stories the way they do their, you know, short bullet- Mm-hmm...

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you know, probably original. And then it was like, you know, like Bank of... Brought to you by Bank of America.

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I'm like, well, somebody at Axios obviously has those relationships because if they really wanted to pay attention to Philadelphia, why wouldn't they advertise with us where we have probably had three times as many, four times as many email subscribers, plus print, plus other things.

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So I just, I don't know how viable the email newsletter model will be financially. You know, if you look under the hood and say, are these financially profitable businesses? I don't know the answer.

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And if they are, that's great, but I think that they're gonna have to evolve in order to be truly, like, call it relevant or a real business that they can build.

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And, and that's because you have to do much more than ads in the, in these kinds of businesses. I mean, most media businesses, I feel like these days.

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But I mean, there was like a moment, particularly with email newsletters, and, you know, I don't know, I, I talk with, with Ryan Heaphy re- regularly from, from 6:00 AM, and he's, he's pretty hard-nosed about like [laughs] how he runs businesses.

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He's been, he's been on this podcast before. You know, I think- Well, I think, you know, they're also probably in the weeds a lot more than a corporation would be. Yeah.

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I assume they're, you know, very much entrepreneurs, like really in there paying attention to small details, you know, trying to improve, you know, relationships in the city.

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I know they've worked with some cities from what I've read. So, you know, I think they're being very creative and, and trying to figure out how to really get grassroots.

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I mean, one of the things I'd be very curious with Axios, I know they started by acquiring I think maybe Charlotte. Yeah.

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What I'd be curious is how did it do before when somebody was like all in, and how is it doing now under Axios from both a readership and, and revenue perspective. That'd be curious that, to know. Yeah.

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Because all of a sudden you took something that was run by, if I'm not mistaken, an individual that was really involved and engaged in that community. Yes.

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And now it's, you know- Ted Williams, who got name-checked on a, on a, on a previous podcast on this. He's, he's- I like that name, Ted Williams. [laughs] Triple Crown winner. Exactly. But I, I, you know, I'd be curious.

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That'd be interesting to, to, to see. I don't know if they'll tell you, but- Yeah... I mean, you know, that, that- Well, yeah.

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I mean, on an individual market, I mean, you know, they, they, they use that to then scale to- Yeah....

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a lot of different- But I guess my other question would be, have they been able to get any other market, 'cause they're in a lot- Right...

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that has come anywhere close to what that was at its peak from readership and revenue? That would be interesting to know. 'Cause if they- Yeah... were, that, that would be, you know, terrific.

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But I don't know- Okay, so-... if that's possible, and I... That really took one person, I bet you, putting a lot of blood, sweat, and tears into it. All right.

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So if, if you were to like wrap it up in the, the, the, the sort of Schneps like local media playbook, like the five points, give it to me.

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I think it's being involved in the communities that you're serving if you really are local. I think it's being a diversified media company. And I think it's doing each one of those better than anyone else in your market.

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I think that's really, you know, my key focus. Okay. That's three. That's good. I like to- Yeah... boil it down to three. You know, the rule of three.

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Listen, I, if I keep talking, I'm gonna shoot myself in the foot probably. But no, I mean, I think, I don't think it's anything, you know, there's no rocket science, uh, Brian, in a lot of this. You know?

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I mean, I think you have to be a little bit- This is an execution business. Yeah, there's also- You know, people like me try to make it like [laughs] a little more complicated.

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Listen, we acquired a lot of newspapers that had become very successful businesses of ours, and I think a big part of it is also is, you know, people have to be willing to reinvest in their businesses.

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And I think that that's probably been the downfall of big media companies and small media companies, you know, they suck cash out. They've had to pay down a ton of debt, and they just...

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Or they didn't have the leadership to say, "Let's take that and reinvest in the future." So I think it's always kinda like, I would say like we're able to do a lot of R&D, research and development, but just by doing.

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So I think- Right... you know, that's how like I would say on the local level is like you just have to try new things before other people and try to do them really well and see if it sticks. Yeah.

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And so are your plans, just to get back to the expansion, to stay focused on New York or just like expand incrementally around the New York...

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I mean, obviously the New York area, I mean, you can, you could r- you could e- eventually go back and reach to Philadelphia really.

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I mean, you could go both north and south and, and, and take up a large geography and, and populations. We did take our Dan's Papers, you know, the one I was telling you about that serves the Hamptons. Mm-hmm.

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And we did start a Dan's Papers for Palm Beach, Florida- Okay... three years ago. And that's been good for us 'cause what we realized is we owned a very cyclical business in the Hamptons.

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The summertime's obviously when we crushed it. The wintertime was slow, and we realized that the top 1% of the 1%- Yeah. [laughs]... you know, were down in Palm Beach.

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You know, you know you're at the top 1% of the 1% when you have to stop your car and you have to stop, is that a house or is that a museum? And I had to Google- [laughs]... by the way, and it was a house.

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But we've been very successful in that market. It's just a monthly, it's just during the winter, but it, that, that showed promise to me in terms of, you know, those wealthy, you know, call it markets.

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And I think Florida obviously has a lot of connections to New York. Yeah, totally. Do you know, like, Modern Luxury? Like they just- Of course... like focus on the... I, I, I have to get them on this podcast.

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They just, they just- Yeah... focus on, on the, the richest areas and- Well, listen- And-... they're a good example of how print can survive and thrive, sure.

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And, you know, they, they, they do a lot of other things, but yes, they're, they're in almost every major, you know, metro market that has money. [laughs] Yeah. I mean, that's... It's a good lens.

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You know, you gotta balance it with the sort of, you know, the civic impact versus the, the, the business opportunities. You know, rich areas are always gonna be

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far better served with media, with everything than less rich areas. That's just the reality. Well, listen, sometimes you have those kind of media outlets where you don't have to worry about that stuff.

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Like with Dan's Papers, like we do, we barely do hard news. And sometimes it's like a luxury because, you know, it's hard and expensive to do that.

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So sometimes when you can just focus on events and lifestyle and culture and things of that nature, it can be, you know, easier because you also have just a, a, a focus. Right.

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But you're just, like you're not like looking at like, you know, taking, replicating the model in other entirely different other geographies or markets.

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I think the only way to replicate it, honestly, is if there was another company that was, you know, had diversified media in a given market that, you know, we felt we could go in there and, and do it better.

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That would probably be the only way that I would think that it would make sense. Okay. Cool. Awesome. Well, thanks so much, Josh. It's a lot of fun. Yeah, Brian, I really appreciate the opportunity to tell our story.

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Thank you so much. [outro music]