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[upbeat music] This week's episode is brought to you by Beehiiv.

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When you're running a media business, email is usually the backbone, and getting it right, unfortunately, is usually harder than it should be, and that is why I've been impressed by Beehiiv.

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Welcome to the Rebooting show. I am Brian Morrissey. A quick note that this podcast will be soon coming to you twice a week.

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I've been doing more conversations lately, and it's something I wanna focus on, and I wanna share them with you. So I will now have a conversation in this feed every Tuesday and Thursday.

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And if that is not enough, you can also listen to People vs.

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Algorithms, which is a separate show that I do with Troy Young and Alex Schlafer, and the barely disguised anonymous banker who probably needs to come out of the shadows very soon. That one's a little broader.

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It's about the impacts of tech and culture and media, um, and how they're intertwined more than ever.

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Anyway, my hope that all these conversations are valuable as we all try to figure out the information space and how to build sustainable businesses within it.

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I always like to hear your feedback, so email me at brian@therebooting.com. In today's episode, I have a conversation that I recorded a couple weeks ago in Paris with Monocle founder, Tyler Brûlé.

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We recorded it in Monocle's shop and cafe in Paris in a lovely little studio they have in the, in the back. I chose a mere glass of water while Tyler sipped a white wine. We did do the recording early in the evening.

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It was a fitting venue because, you know, Monocle is an iconoclastic media brand that really is defined by sitting out most of the digital media trends.

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And in many ways, I think today it's emerged as a model for a new crop of niche media brands. At least I see a lot of similarities in them. And I think it comes back to what we discuss about proximity.

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I mean, rather than selling reach, Monocle sells closeness to a defined audience that's affluent, it's mobile, it's curious, it's culturally literate.

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It has a magazine, a site, digital radio/podcast operation, uh, video, shops and cafes, events and collaborations, and an agency business.

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We get into how Monocle has evolved over the years, what makes the brand distinct, and why Tyler wants to build a decidedly global brand. Hope you enjoy this conversation.

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[upbeat music] Tyler, thanks so much for having me in the cafe, in your studio. You're welcome. And, and, and welcome. Bienvenue. Thanks so much.

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I wanted to, I wanted to do this podcast with you for a while actually, but I wanted to...

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Because Monocle keeps coming up, I think, at this period of time in the media business when there's obviously a lot of existential angst about it, right? And- How and, how and where does it come up? [laughs] No, down...

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So, 'cause I'm, I'm, I am curious. No, no, no. I... No. So it came up... So I was at this niche media conferen- conference that went on in New York. I didn't... You're, like, smirking a little bit.

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There is niche media conferences that go on, which I was shocked at, so that's why I went to it, and it was down the street from me, which, which helped. But, like, a couple of people, like, mentioned it.

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Like, Ca- Caitlin Thompson mentioned it from Racket. Do you know Racket? No. It's, like, they're basically- Of course. Yeah, yeah, yeah, sure. The, the, the tennis. I mean- Yeah, yeah, the lifestyle- Tennis padel...

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around tennis. Yes, of course. You know? Yes, of course they are. Yes. I was just at, like, a launch party for... There's even magazine launch parties still happening. Which is, yes. They're smaller affairs.

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But for Esses, which is a magazine, another lifestyle magazine devoted to F1. And again, it's, like, the lifestyle around it. And I'm pretty sure they're gonna do a Monocle playbook. Okay.

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I'm talking with Ogus about it, the guy who founded it, but I'm pretty sure. And I see this, like, across... And so I wanted to get to the original Monocle playbook.

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I think you're coming on 20 years at least from the incubation of Monocle. Yeah, it's almost we're, we're talking at a time when we, yeah, landed the first tranche of money, which was, which was 20 years ago.

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So if we, if we go, yeah, all the way back to 2005 was when we brought in our first investor. It took a little bit longer because they, they set us the challenge of no private equity, no VCs.

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It had to be only other family offices that they would entertain as potential partners. But yeah, that's, it was 20, it's 20 years ago now. Yeah.

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And you started as a magazine, but what was, what was the concept when you started? And then we'll fast-forward today to what it has become. If I look back

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22 years ago now when there was, there were, there were a few layouts lying around, and tho- those boards still exist, I think we were looking at a number of things.

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One was this decoupling of, of Europe, but I say sort of decoupling in a way. This was the rise of, of, of low-cost carriers.

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There was this moment that you had y- moving into the start of the 2000s where Europe just opened up so much more, and there was this real sense of sort of mobility and a different type of promise, and I felt was that being reflected?

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Were the, the newspapers of the day capturing that, and, and, and the magazines as well? That was one side of it.

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And then I would, I would say that there was just this sense of, like, being in airports and peering aroundpoles or, or, or pillars in, in, in bookshops and sort of just spying over people's shoulders when they were at the newsstand, what were they buying?

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And, and I, I would often notice that someone would be buying a copy of Der Spiegel and then German GQ, or they were buying Stern magazine and maybe they were buying Architectural Digest.

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And I was thinking, it's so funny how people are bolting all of these things together.

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They want, they wanted a little bit of news in current affairs, they wanted a bit of entrepreneurship, and then they wanted some kind of payback at the end of it.

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And it's just, it's so, so interesting to talk about that's how people [laughs], you know, a- as recently as two decades ago were getting on planes, buying three or four magazines.

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And so there was this sense, could we bring all of those things together? Could we look at world affairs?

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And, and of course could we also then look at great architecture and could we look at fashion at, at the back of the magazine? And that was, that was really the, the starting point, and there didn't just...

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You know, of course, there were plenty of weekend papers that, that of course, and, and, and are still around that are doing that week in and week out, but no one was doing that in, in the format of, of a magazine as, as we know it.

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There's, there were pockets of it, but no one was doing what we're doing still today. Yeah, and that was heading into the financial crisis. Great timing.

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Also, like, heading into, like, the decline of the magazine industry overall, right [laughs]? Absolutely. I mean it [laughs] Impeccable timing. And it is funny.

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You, we, we could, you could have sort of perched a microphone on the table last night, because I, I was with a former colleague, well, a still, still a colleague, but a former colleague from Wallpaper days, but we're, we're still together.

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Yeah, all, all of these, she, she started in 1997 and we're, we're, we're still together as part... She's now the CEO of, of our agency business. And we, we were talking about was that the golden era?

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Are we still in a bit of a golden era? Is it a silver age? You know, where, where, where are we right now?

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And I think that there is, there's still a moment, and I think we're still doing things in a certain way which are hopefully a little bit golden.

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But listen, you know, we were talking about Concorde and we were talking about all the great things- Yeah... that we used to do [laughs] when we were running, when we were running Wallpaper Magazine.

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But, you know, go, let's go to 2007. Yeah, not a fantastic time to, to launch, but there was, you know... We, we, we captured a small window.

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We had enough runway in 2007 when we launched to just make a name for ourself, that ad- that advertisers knew who we were. Were we incredibly essential? No, but there was an awareness.

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I think we'd have had enough cut through with, with, of course, our readers and the retailers in between, et cetera. So, but of course then everything crumbled very shortly after.

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Yeah, and I think magazines obviously have not handled that transition well. I mean, they tried to transition into digital business models. They tried to become BuzzFeed-like, really, if you will.

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You guys sat that out, which turns out to be a really good decision. Sometimes not doing, not following the crowd is the right decision. Yeah.

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I've always sort of maintained that, that various sort of trails are, you know, if you sort of look along- alongside, there's a lot of corpses of pioneers, right [laughs]?

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And, and, and I've always sort of felt that, not always, sure, we venture and, and, and, and also have done things that others have not done, for sure.

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And but I think there was a lot of things happening in that period, 2007, 2008, 2009.

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Of course, you had the rise of, you know, we had the, you know, the tablet came along, and, and not long after, you know, podcasts joined. So there's, there was a lot of things happening in, in that period.

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And, and you're right. We, we chose to sort of sit on the sidelines on some things and say, "Let's just stay focused on, on the mission."

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And I think a curious thing happened, though, as well, because I think we're here today still because I go back to that window that we were able to have a, a bit of a reputation.

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One thing happened, of course, which was, yeah, if, if you were a luxury goods company, if you were an airline, y- y- you know, it's very easy to just look at, okay, how much you're spending with y- you know, a major global financial daily or how much you might be spending with Conde Nast.

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And, and what, what was interesting was Monocle is global.

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We, we launched with a global footprint right away, and I think s- well, not think, I know what happened, was if, if you were s- the CMO of a watch company, it was very easy for you to go and cut some big numbers.

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But you still needed to be present. You still needed to be in Singapore Airport in, in a title. You still needed to be in the US. You still needed to be in, at, at Barnes & Noble in Los Angeles. Mm-hmm.

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And it was quite interesting to say, "Actually, we're, we're gonna hold on to Monocle. Monocle actually can deliver us the world.

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We can still be out there, but we're not gonna have to, of course, you know, reach as deep as if we were in The New York Times Magazine globally." Yeah. And, and that was, that worked in our favor.

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So I'm not saying that, that we saw ad revenue skyrocket, but we, we managed to maintain a position in that period when, of course, everything, you know, hurtled south rather rapidly for many other titles.

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Yeah, and I think a lot of the magazine titles have been trying to find their way really ever since, and they sort of, I don't want to say they gave up on print, but you know, you've talked about it before.

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I mean, those magazines became ever thinner, and they sort of lost confidence, I feel like, in print.

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And I mean, I could understand from the CFO's position [laughs] after the financial crisis wh- why you lose, you just see ad pages dwindling.

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But then you're also, you're, you're, you're neither one thing or the other as- Right... a- and we saw it when pursuing a digital strategy.

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No one knew where that was going to go, but then your core product, which was still making money, maybe not what it was making three years earlier or five years earlier, but it was still,

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you know, the cash cow of, of that part of whatever media company it might've been.

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And, and yeah, so I think you're, you're sort of, yeah [laughs] looking at the sort of endless path of where digital, digital was going to go.

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And then, and then of course, you know, you had this downgrading of not just, well, the, just the downgrade of the physical product.

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That was the other interesting thing as well, because if you look back at the, that period of, you know, it'd be good to sort of, you know, there's a few magazines in the studio here, but if you could go back and look at magazines from the two, you know, those 2007, 2008, there's also the rise of, of course, you know, just digital photography as well.

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Yeah. And, and of course, a lot of people wanted to sort of, you know, race to that as well, 'cause how could they use that online, et cetera, various efficiencies that would come with it.

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And, and that was also a quality issue, too. Like, no- no one really knew how to process it. No one knew how to color correct it.

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So I think we're gonna, I was, I believe that we'll look back at that period of time thinking, God, like everyone had like just really, really bad like skin irritation because-There's all that sort of...

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E-e-everything looks so splotchy then. I remember the... And I, I, and of course, we would get proofs back, and like what could we do to improve this?

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And, and one of the things we did is like we just have to go back and shoot on film. Yeah.

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And, and we really said, like, "If these are gonna be big features, if something's gonna go full, full bleed, whatever it is, we have to go back and shoot on film. We can't be shooting digitally."

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And w-we're not still in that world entirely, but we still, we still shoot a lot of stories on film. Yeah. So let's talk about where... Like, the magazine now is just one part of, like, a larger brand.

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And I think a lot of media, a lot of publishers now, you know, need to think about themselves as brands.

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I know they went through a period where they were about acquiring traffic, whether that was from Google or from Facebook or, or whatever, and then monetizing it through programmatic usually.

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And that's a volume game, right? And, and now a, a lot of them are trying to still operate the traffic game while rebuilding a brand, right? And expressing that brand in many different ways.

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I mean, we're in Paris in a studio where you also do podcasts and, and online radio. Real broadcasting. Real, real broadcasting. There's, there's someone back in London [laughs]

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and a cafe where I had a lovely Americano this morning, I might add. And you've got a Stone Island sort of collaboration going on here. You do events. You've got an agency that's part of this, right?

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What else am I missing? You do, you do other retail. We do. Yeah, we, we do, we do other retail. And of course, there is an e-commerce business. Yeah, there's an e-commerce business.

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There's, and there's, there's conferences and, yeah, there's, there's, there's, there's a lot. Yeah.

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And so tell me about how all of that sort of comes together and then the role of the magazine as the sort of centerpiece of it because to me, like, you know, the, the role of the magazine is it's craft and it's, it's, it, there is a scarcity to print, and I think that there is a reaction, particularly as we go into this, this AI era, where it's just inevitable 99% of, quote-unquote, content is going to be synthetic very soon.

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And that's gonna lead to a counterreaction to, of course. Absolutely. And I guess maybe we, we don't have to go back to the playbook in the beginning 'cause I'm not even sure if there was a playbook. Mm.

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But there was, there was certainly a, a plan back in 2007- You make it up, though. You make it, you make it up and- Of course, you make it up as you go along. [laughs] It become, becomes a playbook.

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But, yeah, you know, if I look back in 2007, what, what do we wanna do?

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We want to speak to that global audience we talked about, and, and that audience could live, you know, they could live in Europe, they could live in, in Asia, they could live in, you know, in the Americas. That was fine.

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We were gonna be global. We knew that we wanted to, if you sort of jump a little bit further, one of the first things we did was we said, "Okay, this is gonna be an audience. It's gonna be largely male.

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They're going to wanna travel well with their titles," et cetera. So right at the very beginning, we worked with Porter from Japan with, with Yoshida, and we had three bags.

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So from the very beginning, there was a retail offer, and not long after, there was... And it was very analog at the beginning. Uh- Mm-hmm...

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it was, okay, yes, it was on a website, but of course, your order was on base, someone probably called you up after they received an email in the background. But it looked like e-commerce.

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And but yeah, long, not long after, around the corner, there was a, a, a small flower shop went under that we thought it'd be awful if it turn-turned into a kebab shop or something. And so [laughs]

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we went and spoke to the landlord and took that space over and, and then suddenly we had our, our, our own, yeah, our own retail footprint. And yeah, we're still, you know, not far... Well, we, we've moved on.

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We have a, we have a bigger space now. And that was, that was the start of something. And then, you know, not long after, there was a cafe in Tokyo, and it, and it sort of just built from there.

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So I think from the very outset, we wanted to have, we wanted to have this proximity with our, with our reader.

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We wanted to make sure that they could come in and buy back issues, and they could also, of course, buy nice bags from Japan and maybe some other things and, and finds that we had from around the world, other good print that we admired because oftentimes we'd write about magazines, but they'd be s- they'd, already then they'd be hard to get even on an international newsstand.

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And that was sort of what was informing, yeah, I think a lot [laughs] of, a lot of what we were trying to do, and I, I think also being very confident when it came to building audience.

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And, and we wanted, we wanted, well, and we want people to, to pay. So we never got into that strange subscription game of, of 12 issues for $12. Yeah. W- it was always, well, back then was it 90 pounds to get 10 issues?

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But one thing we didn't do is we didn't discriminate based on where you lived.

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So you could be working for an NGO in Afghanistan, and I think there was, back then, I'm not sure how many subscribers we have in Afghanistan now, but, you know, there were eight, eight copies a month would go to Afghanistan, or they might go via PO box in Geneva, but we'd still charge you 90 pounds or $100- Oh...

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or whatever it was. And, and if, and if, hey, and also if you lived around the corner in not far from where we were, you know, fulfilling from in the UK, you'd still pay the same price. Yeah.

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You can always charge the Scandinavians more. They pay more. Yeah, they, well, you, you, you'd think so. [laughs] We, we have, we have, we have some, we have some work to do in that market. Yeah.

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And, and we still have that, we still have that model. I mean, it's, it's ki- it's amazing, and maybe it's gonna come up for review in a board meeting soon.

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But we still believe that you should not be punished because you're enjoying your time in Paris and you want to flee New York. Well, pay the same price. Yeah. But tell me about proximity. That's an interesting...

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'Cause it's sort of the o- the opposite of scale. Like, what does proximity mean to you when, when it comes to making media products?

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Uh, it, it means a variety of things, but I think one is just, is understanding and being close to our, our reader, our listener, our, our customer, you know, in these walls, you know, behind us, and, and that proximity where of course we're, we're listening to their needs, and we're listening to their story tips, all o- all of those things.

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I mean, oftentimes I say that it reminds me of growing up in outside of Montreal where, you know, we, we used to have sort of the front window of the, of the local newspaper, and if, if you had a story tip or a dog was missing, you just got to go in and, and, and sort of drop it off or slip a, slip a, a note under the door of, of the local newspaper.

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And I think we sort of function in a similar way that people d- they drop off CVs, they tell you about their, you know, their cousin in Jakarta's new startup.

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So, you know, in, in, in sort of-Real news gathering terms, it, it works that way. I'm not saying that, of course, every, every story is gonna land on, on page or, or on air. Definitely not.

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But then it's also, it's the conversations that we have with, with customers. With da-with that we know who they are in this e-era of like, you know... Do we, do we still talk about big data or are we moved on from that?

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I don't know. Anyway. We're, we're fully into AI. Yeah, okay, so we're into AI.

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So, so, so whatever it may be, a, it's not like there's sort of a set of cameras here which are analyzing sort of, you know, height and body mass and ethnicity of our customers.

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I'm sure that's well on its way or if it's not fully installed with many, many others already. But we're having real conversations.

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And I would say, you know, then, then suddenly if one of my colleagues is, is in Geneva or they're in New York talking to a brand, we can, we can really talk about the submarine commander for the US Navy, this is a real, a true story, who is a super fan of Confect magazine and is a super fan of, of Monocle, and she takes these magazines with her when they head out from Norfolk or wherever the submarines are, are based and is on patrol with Monocle and Confect for three months with that.

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And that doesn't, that doesn't come from data. Yeah. And, and then you go and tell that story to a big watch company thinking wow, they wanna reach, they wanna reach that woman.

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A-and so this is where I come back to proximity even though our submarine commander is very far, far away under the sea and with, with, in a non-calm environment.

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But that's the conversation that we have, and that's why we, we like having these outlets. Yeah. And so that...

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Yeah, so, so I always think of, I think of proximity in terms of, of, of relationship with, with the audience. And, and still to be... Listen, do we need this setup here? Do we need this studio in Paris? I think we do.

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I use Riverside in my apartment. There you go, right. [laughs] We can do it, but I'd like this. I would prefer this to be honest. No. And I, I...

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But I think it's, it is, it's important that, that we have correspondents or producers or researchers- Yeah... in market who also have a proximity to the story as well. Yeah.

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But talk, talk to me about the, the, the role the magazine then plays in that because look, y-when, when you're selling, you know, proximity, you're gonna be selling to like advertisers.

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It's an advertising model for the most part. I mean, I'm sure subscriptions are part of it, but like this, this is advertising is the majority of the revenue. For sure. Okay. Absolutely.

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And you are selling proximity to a certain, a

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wealthy demographic that travels a lot, that is curious about the world, that has a particular taste, it, you know, knows what the, the Venice Biennale is and cares about it and, and, and various things, and there's a set of advertisers that really want to, to reach them.

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What is the proximity then mean to them? 'Cause I would guess that that's more than selling ad pages. For sure.

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And again, it's not that they want another submarine story, but I think they, they, they want, they want to know, and this is, and this is where I think the story starts to play out in a very new way, they, they want to know that that, that, that person exists.

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They, of course, they want the, the data as to what percentage are on the US West Coast versus what percentage are in the ASEAN region, whatever it may be. Of course, you know, we can, we can deliver that.

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But then I think they, they, they want to, to know not just will they come to an event, but will they come to an event and be engaged, consume, ask questions?

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Will they come to an event and, and, uh, possibly inquire about that wristwatch, or will they inquire- Yeah... about that vehicle or that resort or those properties that might be for sale?

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So yeah, and, and that, that's the, the, the curious part. Now, we have a, it's not, it's not a board meeting, but we're having sort of a, a forty-two K session I call it.

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We're having a forty-two K session on, on Friday morning where we're, we're, we're, we're looking at this challenge of, of proximity.

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W-you know, and I don't wanna say we've created a monster, but we do see that we're a business which has become so event-focused.

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And when I say event-focused, that's not, you know, for people who aren't familiar with the magazine, that's not, you know, three or four pages like it used to be in a magazine saying, "Oh, look at, you know, we've, we've done an event with this tequila company.

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You know, we've done an event with this car brand." It's, and you used to see these in the front, the front of magazines. It's, it's, it's not that. This is where brands are looking for, I mean, really big, deep events.

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And sometimes- Can you give an example? You gave me a couple of the other ones. Yeah. But I mean, it, it ex...

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You know, on one side it could be B2B, totally B2B, where we're, we're working with brands and they've said, "Can you put together a global briefing? At what point is the world gonna fall off a cliff?

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At what point are we going to see the economy go back into, you know, the ascent? At, at how are we going to sort of figure out to speak to young consumers in Malaysia?"

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Where we will then put together, and, and partly 'cause due to our radio skills, we'll put together a program which, which feels like, you know, a, a, a run of, of, of, of a classic morning show in a way, bringing guests in and out, you know, doing a briefing.

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And that's, and that's in a closed environment only for a brand. We might turn it, it might turn into a podcast for them, but that's really a live, a live event. Yeah.

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And, and then of course, you know, then we're going the, the whole other direction.

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We just had our, you know, we, we spoke just recently off the back of our Quality of Life conference, which was in Barcelona, and that's where we, we do, we bring- That's a classic event. Yeah. That's a classic event.

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But, you know, but, but it's funny, someone said, "Oh, it's, it's amazing. Like, you're the only event where there's, of that scale, where there's no lanyards." No one- Oh, good. You're against lanyards. Me too.

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No one has a- Something we have in common. No one has a name tag. No one... And, and you know, and, and it's, it's, it's an extraordinary group of people.

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It's, it's, you know, I, I, I, it's, I don't wanna say it's incestuous, but it's getting close to that because there is... It, it's of a certain level.

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There's not a lot of turnover in terms of new delegates coming in and people exiting. It's, it's a real, and I hate to use the word club, but it is. Yeah. It's, it's a very clubby environment.

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Do you ever think about like starting clubs? I'm sure you have. I think... Listen, I think we are a club already. You know? I mean like Soho House type.No No? It's... No. Uh Different business.

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It's, yeah, it's a different business. And I, but I think y- you are pa- you are a member of a club if you're a subscriber. You're, you're, you are part of a, a, you know, a community. You're a constituent of- Yeah...

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broadly a, or a, a broad group of like-minded people. And I think, and you see that there is this sort of real sort of sense of fraternity.

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One thing we do have, though, which is, I guess maybe that is, it is more a club. We, we have something called the Patron Circle. Yeah.

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And that is, and that grew out of, this is, and it's interesting where it goes back to the point, the role of the magazine. Okay, if you have a core subscription, you get 10 magazines a year.

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But of course you know that we do two companions a year. We do seasonal newspapers. There's The Escapist. There's The Entrepreneurs.

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There's so much other print that comes out across here, not to mention extra books, et cetera. So we were just monitoring the emails that were coming in from readers who were not annoyed.

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They were actually saying, "Look it, I like everything you do. What's it gonna cost to just send me everything?" We thought, "Well, that's interesting."

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So we just, we came up with a number, and I think it's around 2,000 US dollars. And so for 2,000 US, you get everything. It's a sort of a, a very,

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yeah, it's a very elaborate all-you-can-eat buffet, but you get all of the print that we do. Plus, we do one dinner a year where everyone gathers, everyone who's a patron. Yeah.

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A- and so that, I would say it doesn't have a, you know, it doesn't have a, there's not a bricks and mortar component to it. Of course, it happens in a nice place, but, you know, also we, we, we move it around.

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And so yeah, I would say that, I guess that is, that is a club, but not in name. So how do you avoid becoming a services business?

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Or is it inevitably that you're, you're basically a services business as a publisher these days? It, it's one that keeps us on our toes every day.

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I have to remind colleagues that we want to, we are, we're there to help our, our reader.

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And yeah, again, we can go- Oh, I mean, I mean like a, providing services to, you know, basically becoming an, an agency business with a media front end. Right. You know? Okay. Well, I was gonna...

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But the, but the other side of it is, though, people just coming through the front door- I guess you are a service. You're serving coffee.

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[laughs] Well, we're serving coffee, but also the, the people also think because they're a subscriber, therefore we're also a concierge business. Yeah.

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Now, we know many people have tried or are trying to monetize that, and, and there is a fine line between how many times can you dispense to the same person, you know, more tips for Japan?

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"Oh, what else was in the pages?" You know? W- what ended up on the cutting floor was, it's on the cutting floor for a reason, because we didn't think it belonged. But, "Oh, yeah.

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Can, you know, can, can you give me another tip about, you know, where I should go in Fukuoka," et cetera.

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So there we have to be very careful and, and just remind ourselves we're, we're, we're in the business of, of still getting a magazine out and, and, and getting broadcasts on air and all of those things, that we cannot be a, a, at least, at least not yet, because we haven't figured out a way to do it, that we can't, we can't be a business which is ding the bell and we're dispensing services.

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But on to, on to the, to the other point, we're definitely in an era where I would say the traditional agency that did the advertising campaign once upon a time i- is certainly challenged.

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And where media players like ourselves are scooping up a lot of work- Yeah... whether, whether, and that's whether it's because a company wants- Well, you have a standalone agency too. We do.

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So and I, I, and it's, yeah, it's probably important to say we have a holding company, a holding company in Switzerland, holds 100% of Wink Creative, which is our branding and design agency, which was born in 1998.

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It was a spinoff from, from Wallpaper, and we bought that out from Time Warner when we decoupled all of that.

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And then the Monocle business, we hold about, I don't know, 53%, and then there's some other family offices who hold the balance of those businesses, of that, of that business.

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And, uh, we, of course, within Monocle, there is a studio as well, which is developing events, podcasts, a radio series, doing, delivering films, making books, as much as, of course, inserts or a spread or a single inside the magazine as well.

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Right. Okay. It's interesting 'cause, like, when you started this, you were, you were talking about, like, in 2007, and it was different. It was like Ryanair just started or whatever.

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And but also globalization was, like, sort of at its, its peak, right? We're sort of in a different time now, at least in the US. [laughs] Um, very much so. How do you...

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I mean, I, I feel like y- y- your worldview as sort of like you, you wanna stay sort of consistent, and is that, like, actually an advantage in some ways?

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Because, you know, so much is moving into, like, populism and in a mercantilist, like, direction that I think of as, like, diametrically opposed to, like, Monocle, to, like, The Economist.

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There's a few brands that I think of that are, like, you know, completely, you know... At, at one point, they would've just been, well, of course, the consensus is, you know, yeah. Yeah. Absolutely.

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And now you've got backlash against the free movement of people, of goods, et cetera. Yes. And I would say that we, we've stuck to our guns.

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You know, do globaliz- globalization, the, the global nomad, the global citizen, you know, did, did they go out of fashion? Are they out of fashion? Yeah, certainly in some pockets of the world.

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And then you can go to other corners of the world and it's, it's all alive and well, and people do want open borders and, or, or, you know, or they want, or they want open borders, of course, with some level of restriction and screening, et cetera.

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And I, and I think that that is, you know, we've always, you know, we, we just, we've always believed in, I guess, you know, I, you know, we're driven by opportunity.

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And, and I'm looking at a big map on the other side of the studio and just thinking, you know, that, that is, that's what, what the world is, is there for, to, to go and have amazing experiences.

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And, and, you know, if that is to invest in a company or to go buy property or simply be inspired, we want Monocle to be the vehicle that can hopefully deliver you.

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And, and may- and maybe it doesn't mean you have to get on a train or a plane to crisscross the world. You can also do it from your armchair as well.

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And, and that's, I think, interesting when we sort of, if we talk a little bit about what's happening in your country, you know, the US remains our, our single biggest market in the world as, as, as a single nation.

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Fine. Within Europe, we sell more magazines, but if, you know, that, that's a collection of many nations. US is our biggest market. It's a market that continues to grow.

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And I think may- maybe, maybe our reader who's living inI know in Phoenix they're not getting on, you know, a, a plane to cross the Atlantic or the Pacific every other week, but we are taking them somewhere, and then maybe they're going to listen to a podcast, and then maybe they're purchasing a book.

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But there is a level of connection, and, like, we come back to the, the proximity word as- Yeah... as well. They feel closer to the rest of the world. But you're...

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I, I would think, like, you're not very US-centric as a brand. I think that's fair to say, right? Yeah. I mean, listen, we... I mean- I mean, for an English language, like, global- Sure...

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like, I mean, even, like, The Economist is very, is very British, I feel like, at least in its tone and approach and, and whatnot, but, you know, it is, it's very deeply embedded in, in America, and you don't, you, you guys don't, like, focus as much on, on the United States.

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It's easy to get su- sucked into our- It, no... psychodrama. Yeah. [laughs] That's all I'm trying to say. No, it, it is. [laughs] And listen, we, and we don't maintain- And we're a giant market too, so people- Yeah...

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you know. No. Listen, but we, we had a, we shuttered our, our bureau in Los Angeles, what is it now? Coming on three years? Three years that, that we've been out of, out of LA.

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We've, we have no permanent foothold actually in the US, and that's, that's unique. Yeah. I mean, we always had either New York or, yeah, we always had either New York or, or Los Angeles.

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We've been to LA twice, so, you know, we, we, even we inherited from the wallpaper days our, our bureau on, on Broadway and Houston, so that, that always existed. We're not there anymore. People are still reading us.

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Of course, of course we're doing US stories, but, you know, it's not dominant, and I think there's... Yeah, and that's 'cause also I don't think our US reader...

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And we get, for sure, we do get letters from people who say, "Oh, I would love the magazine to be a bit more of a mirror. Could I see myself more in the magazine in a US context?"

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You could, but that's not why we're there. I think, you know, we, we are there to take you somewhere else.

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And of course when, when it's the right story, and then, and I, I always think, like, a good US story, though, is one which is also gonna excite someone who is living in Argentina, and we're, we're, you know, we're benchmarking, we're showing sort of a great story about entrepreneurialism.

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But do we wanna sort of wade into identity politics [laughs] and everything else? It's covered. It's- It's cover- it's covered well. It's, it's, yeah. E- exactly.

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[laughs] You c- and I always say, listen, you know, if you wanna, if you wanna go and do, you, you know, so, oh, why is there more tech coverage? Plenty of places you can go for that. Yeah.

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But I guess, yeah, so your, your advertiser base is... They're, I, I, 'cause I, I just wonder, I mean, obviously business interests do, do intrude.

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Like, I mean, don't they want you to b- uh, have, like, more of a, a, of a cut-through in, in the US?

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I mean, I would guess, first of all, I guess your, your advertiser base is mostly luxury brands, a lot with travel bureaus, which I think is a smart- Yeah, a lot, yeah, I would say a lot of...

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I, I mean, I call them travel bureaus and, or, or government. Government. Yeah.

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When you look at, let's say, like Morocco recently, the, yeah, they're selling, yeah, maybe they're selling a bit of sunshine, but they're really saying actually you should go and move your auto parts plant- Yeah...

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to northern Morocco. So I- I, there's a lot of ob- yeah, let's call it inward investment advertising from, and certainly Africa on the rise, a lot from Middle East, a lot from southeast Asia.

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But I think those, those brands that are working with us, we're still delivering the US to them because it is our single biggest nation.

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So they know that probably that person who is sitting in Michigan who has been thinking about, "Okay, well, we're, we are supplying, you know, people within the automotive basin around the Great Lakes, but maybe, maybe we, maybe we should jump on the plane to, to, to Casablanca at some point and, and think about that."

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And, and that is, I think, the, um, that, that is what our advertisers are, are looking for.

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So, you know, we're still delivering the world's biggest economy to them, but I thought where we're going with this, what's interesting is US is a big market for us, but we have very little US advertising.

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There's very, you know- Yeah... Delta's not advertising with us. Why do you think that is? Delta's not advertising with us because I'm not convinced a lot of Monocle readers are aspiring to fly on Delta.

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Delta's the best American airline. So they say. I know that it's not saying much. [laughs] Yeah. I will defend Delta. Okay. Go, go, go for...

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[laughs] Listen, I mean, the, the, just, just because they, they cover up their trolleys and, like, put those sort of- They make something- Like, uh, like a little-... something of an effort...

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it's like a horse blanket over them, but anyway. Yeah, that, that is not a, that is not a base for us. And, and, and again, it come, that, that is a numbers game.

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Is, you know, so is Delta interested in, in advertising with us? We, we just, we just don't deliver big enough numbers. And is Delta really interested in flying international passengers? No.

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They can, they can run the world's biggest economy, the world's biggest market. They don't, they don't, they don't have to concern themselves with people who need to get from Spain to, to Atlanta. Yeah.

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So when you look at the media world, I mean, w- what is your, what's your sort of assessment?

231
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I know that's a very broad question, but obviously it's going through a lot of changes right now, a lot of identity cris- crises going on with people sort of thinking about what their purpose is. I don't know.

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How do you evaluate it at this moment? I don't know, we, it, should we, I, should we pick it apart at by b- I mean, on, on how many, how many sectors are there right now? I mean, we can look at the world of print.

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It's amazing. You went to this, what did you call it? Your, your little- It's a niche print... your little niche print conference. Yeah. Uh- Case Sensitive- Yeah, so-... is the name of it...

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and, you know, and there's a version- It's small... of it that happens in Hamburg as well. Uh, listen, it is amazing how many

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niche titles there are out there that find their audience and, but, you know, I think a lot of them are a little bit like podcasts. You know, they, they- Yeah... do one edition and they're gone, but that's fine.

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It- You've got a lot of little niche magazines out here. Of course. No, for sure. Absolutely. And, and no, I'm, I'm all for that.

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So it's, it, but it's amazing, so we thought that was all gonna be, you know, along the roadside, but new titles continue to come out and, and I'm not saying they're all thriving, but there is still a dynamic print scene.

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I think we have to, that's, and that, okay, that, that's identifying sort of the p- the people, people at the Case Sensitive conference.

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Then I think if we look at, let's say, you know, more, more mass titles, I think that's, that is a tricky territory, not just 'cause it's a middle ground, but I, I always wonder, like, how much longer are some of these news weeklies going to be around?

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I'm, I'm amazed that Time is still with us. We were talking before- Yeah...

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went on, on air about, you know, the, the, [laughs] you know, how do, how does the Forbes brand maintain itself in, in obscure corners of the world? Um,Somehow it sort of still, still powers ahead. Yeah.

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So that's, I think that, that area is a little- They're different businesses.

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Very different businesses, and yeah, and, and you sort of, you know, and, and you wonder I, I think I've got a grip on the me- [laughs] On the, on the business model for some of them.

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Others, it's a little, it's a little more, it's a little murky. Well, you know, Newsweek is, is, they make a lot of their money on, like, lists. It's like the Newsweek Best Hospitals in Southwest Missouri- E- exactly...

245
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kind of thing. And every, you know, look, at, at every, every brand reaches a different point of, of their life, and they sort of move on to a different economic purpose.

246
00:37:17.856 --> 00:37:25.216
Yeah, and if I sort of, and if I look at broadcast and, and more, let's say in the news space, I'm wondering, okay, where do things go off the back of the pandemic?

247
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I think we lost so much polish, and yeah, and, and it's, I think it's, you know, it's, it's lovely that we're sitting and, and this, you know, I, I, I would have only done this interview with you if we could have done it face-to-face, whether I would have in the States.

248
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I'm just not big on doing, you know, interviews down the line. I like to be sitting in the same space. Yeah. And, and it's something that we demand.

249
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Of course, we can't always do it, but we try to demand as much as possible that people come into our studios, and hopefully they get, they get to sit on a nice chair made in Finland, and they get to speak in nice microphones, and they're under nice lighting, and it's, it's a, it's a [laughs] it's a nice experience for them.

250
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And, and I think we've, that bit, we, we certainly lost that if we look at the world of broadcasting.

251
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Everybody, of course, is just at the kitchen table with their rubbish array of books or knick-knacks behind them and, and of course their laptop sort of, you know, shooting up through their nostrils.

252
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And, and suddenly just people lost authority.

253
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I, I think all of these great voices, interesting faces who used to come into the studio and had proper hair and makeup and were, were sort of, of course, shot by f- the, you know, f- five different cameras and, and the right angles.

254
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It, there, there was, those people had presence.

255
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And then suddenly, whether it's the correspondent or whether it's the g- the guest they would book, yeah, y- you just way too much information, too much demystification a- as well.

256
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I feel we've gone as far as we can with that, and it's, it is coming back.

257
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I was actually talking to someone from the BBC the other day saying they're really demanding, actually, "No, actually, we're not booking you down the line. We're not doing laptop at home.

258
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If you have a point to make, you need to come in the studio, or you need to go into one of our other studios and, and be properly lit." Yeah. Um, and that's not gonna happen all the time.

259
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There's gonna be lazy bookers who are just, or, or you're gonna be so happy to get that person that, okay, we'll, we'll, we'll live with them on their, on their phone.

260
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But I, I think that there is maybe a bit of a correction going on there. We have to get back to center when it comes to what we expect of broadcasters, news broadcasters.

261
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So I think there, yeah, we, we took it to, we or, [laughs] or, or, or those players I think maybe took it to the edge a little bit, and I s- I feel there's a bit of a professionalism coming back. Right.

262
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Well, I mean, that, that sort of plays into the magazine thing, right? Because, I mean, putting together a magazine is very different. It's, it's, it's a craft, right? And it's very different than digital.

263
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Like, digital is, you know, bits and... Like, a Substack is a Substack is a Substack, right? There's very little ways- Mm-hmm... that you can, you know, put craft into a Substack.

264
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I mean, in some ways it's like, okay, it's, it's just the words. All the words are gonna compete with each other. Yeah.

265
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And I think you see this with media struggling to, to compete with, quote, unquote, "creators" or influencers, whatever you wanna call- Mm... the, the decentralization that's happened to the media ecosystem.

266
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And so I wonder where, where media brands then end up going, right? And, you know, they're not going to be... They're not gonna have that rough authenticity, I feel like, of, like, human beings that can, like- Mm...

267
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get away with. That's why they like the comedian podcasters, et cetera. But they'll pro- it, usually, the best way is to sort of compete on your own terms, right? Yeah. I...

268
00:40:25.036 --> 00:40:45.066
And listen, I, I think that, uh, I'm, I'm hoping that maybe, and also just, you know, hopefully technology as well allows, allows us, and I'm, I'm thinking about just the straight jacket, you know, the, the sort of the, the small, it's not even a straight jacket, it's, it's a, it's a horrible stench, you know, it's a horrible little cage that's, that just reeks, and, and that is

269
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the platforms and, and the sort of these, these sort of, these strict formats that we have to live, live within. You know, so I think of, okay, you know, you talk about Substacks, just the world of, of newsletters.

270
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And I often say, like, are there, are there really only, like, three services that we can buy? So I'm hoping that

271
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does just, [laughs] does, does technology move into a place that we can really design something which is uniquely ours, and you can have a, call it a crafted, unique experience where, yes, the words are gonna be great, but actually it's gonna be visually amazing on my, yeah, when I look at it vertically on, on my, on my device.

272
00:41:19.916 --> 00:41:30.356
A- and, and yet I, I, when I look at all the newsletters I get every morning, there's the odd one that stands out because it's got, you know, it does have a beautiful masthead, but then it, you know, the more you scroll down, I mean, there's only so- Yeah...

273
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much you can do with, with, no matter how good the photo is.

274
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And listen, and, and there are people who do, I think are doing quite a good job, but then, yeah, then I, I think they've got real, real wizards on their photo desks and, and they're working with really good illustrators, but that's few and far between.

275
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But, and, but maybe, you know, maybe we're going to go into that territory a little bit more and we're gonna see an improvement, but right now there's just such a mass of all those newsletters you get every morning from all of your different outlets that you respect.

276
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It's fatiguing, not just- Yeah... the volume of them, but I think it, it's, it is the, the lack of design which is fat- fatiguing. Yeah, and that's, uh, kind of the proximity point, I think, in a, in a different way.

277
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Like, coming in here, like, this cafe is very, it's very Monocle.

278
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Like, I was joking with you, I think, when I emailed about how it's, I, I was gonna come here to, to write my own newsletter, but then there's a no laptop sign, which I felt was very on brand. [laughs] It, yeah.

279
00:42:20.676 --> 00:42:29.116
But beyond that, it really, it looks like a Monocle, it looks like a Monocle cafe, right? And that's, and, and I think it's- 'Cause it is... it's hard... I know, it is.

280
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[laughs] It's, it's harder to do that in, in, in a digital environment than in a physical environment, whether that's print or whether that's a literal, like, coffee shop cafe. Yeah.

281
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And, yeah, and that is the straight jacket of, of, of yeah, of, of theThe, yeah, the format. I mean, we're just, we are victims of, of the format, and, yeah, we struggle with it all, all, you know, all the time.

282
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And, and, yeah, and listen, we know that also we're in a world of also templates and grids and, and you, and you have to remind also your team to step out of it too sometimes. Like, get back to full bleed.

283
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Do we need a world of borders? And because I think that is, we're just the sort of that dictatorial nature of the things that happen in, in, in digital.

284
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Oh, there's actually, there's, there's no, there's no other way to do it. Well, let's think about how we can challenge it. And, and that's something that I, I think I press for it every day in this job. Yeah.

285
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One, one brand I'd wanna ask you about is Airmail. I always thought of them as like a US-founded, like, version of, like, Monocle. They seem to take a lot of cues from, from Monocle.

286
00:43:31.828 --> 00:43:36.228
But they didn't, they dispense with the magazine overall. Do you chart them and track them at all?

287
00:43:36.868 --> 00:43:45.508
Listen, of, of course, the, the owner founder is, you know, a fellow Canadian, so [laughs]- You guys all know each other [laughs]. And, and he's, you know, he's hails partly from Ottawa, as do I.

288
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So of course, you know, we, we keep an eye on, on Airmail and, and what Graydon gets up to. I'm, I... Listen, I'm surprised though that

289
00:43:53.968 --> 00:44:07.868
it hasn't, hasn't become a big, juicy quarterly title on amazing paper stock, or it hasn't become a weekend newspaper. And of course- Yeah... they, they, there's been, I think, very light interpretations of it.

290
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And of course, they do things around, you know, maybe certain events. But I'm surprised that Graydon hasn't really gone for it yet or, or, you know, or, or has done something- Well, they're selling it, so there's that.

291
00:44:16.368 --> 00:44:26.418
Yeah. I mean, there's, there's that as well. And I'm also sort of surprised when I hear the, the numbers that have been invested in something which is, hey, as it, it's the newsletter, you know- [laughs]...

292
00:44:26.428 --> 00:44:32.748
it's, it's just a newsletter stuck in, stuck in, stuck in- I, I gotta show you that the, the overhead is not great, so [laughs]- No, I-... as a newsletterer. No, yeah.

293
00:44:33.168 --> 00:44:42.958
But anyway, my, I'm, I think it's good that it's there. I mean, of course, Graydon does, and his team, they, they, they do what they do and, and it has a level of, of respect. But I'm wondering

294
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would it be on the block or not, actually, if it had a, going back to just the world of print and what, what Graydon did very well, if there wasn't a quarterly, it probably wouldn't be a monthly, but a, a quarterly biannual- Yeah...

295
00:44:55.728 --> 00:45:03.208
amazing title, which everybody would pile into, I think. Everyone would wanna be part of it. So I don't know why they have, they didn't go there. Yeah. But unless he's so...

296
00:45:03.908 --> 00:45:10.908
Yeah, unless he's just so single-minded that the, you know, we, we wanna be in the newsletter space, and we wanna arrive in your inbox every Saturday morning, and we're there for the weekend for you.

297
00:45:10.928 --> 00:45:21.688
But I think we still see that weekends in many corners of the world, it's a great environment for, for print. Yeah. And they do have retail. They have a, they've got a shop in the Village.

298
00:45:21.728 --> 00:45:28.748
You could take over the shop if they get rid of it. Yeah, but- Yeah, Monocle... I, I, I, I could do. [laughs] If we're, if we're ready to go back to New York, that is, that is the...

299
00:45:28.788 --> 00:45:35.318
And, and we're, we're look- you know, do we go to New York? Do we go to Washington? I should say that we are in the Americas. No, gotta go to, go to New York- We do, we do have-... not go to Washington...

300
00:45:35.318 --> 00:45:37.868
we do have Toronto, though. So we do have, we have a shop in Toronto.

301
00:45:37.888 --> 00:45:53.248
And that's interesting, the amount of American, you know, readers, customers who, you know, who are, I don't think they're coming just to see us, but I think they, they might plan a weekend in Toronto, and part of it is that, you know, it's to, it's to go to our shop on College Street because, oh, you're not in Los Angeles anymore.

302
00:45:53.288 --> 00:46:00.768
You're not in New York anymore. But we, you know, we wanted to come by, wanted to see what you have, and we wanted to see what you have in an environment which is not on a backlit screen. Okay.

303
00:46:01.108 --> 00:46:12.988
So last thing is give me, give me two or three media brands anywhere in the world that you're really into. We'll start from a proximity point of view. We'll, we'll start far away, Japan. I, I'm a

304
00:46:13.908 --> 00:46:22.768
huge admirer of the work that Magazine House does as a publisher. Talk about sticking to their guns, that this is, this is the- What are the, what do they publish?

305
00:46:22.788 --> 00:46:31.068
So this is the company that brought, brought the world Popeye Magazine. Oh, Popeye, yeah. Brutus, Casa Brutus. They're all from the same company? Ginza Magazine, Premium.

306
00:46:31.168 --> 00:46:42.688
I mean, so yeah, a world of, of fantastic titles and, and global benchmarks for, for style and, and great fashion, et cetera. And, and I was sitting down- And also very Japanese, though, too. So Japanese.

307
00:46:42.778 --> 00:46:50.148
[laughs] And, and, and I think this is, you know, we're having, we're having- 'Cause it's-... a media conversation here. And I think what... So I, I sat down with them recently. You know, and we knew a thing or two.

308
00:46:50.348 --> 00:46:56.278
Japan's very important to us. We've spent a lot of time there. We've been in the markets in the very beginning. I mean, the Nikkei, of course- Oh, yeah...

309
00:46:56.278 --> 00:47:03.688
one of the bigger media, media players, has a stake in our business. But I was, I was, I was fascinated talking, talking to them because they were, "Oh, Tyler-san," I'm like, you know...

310
00:47:04.408 --> 00:47:09.158
They were like, they, they, "Tell us how this, like, this newsletter thing works." And I'm like, "Well, you know, it's got, it's got its moments." It, it...

311
00:47:09.168 --> 00:47:14.388
They just say, "Oh, we, you know, we, we love looking at, you know, at the Monocle Minute every day, and, and how does it come together and everything?"

312
00:47:14.448 --> 00:47:28.268
So it was just this exchange of ideas, and then I s- I said, "Well, so, you know, what, what are you, you know, what is your plan in terms of, you know, subscriptions, and, you know," and, and, and knowing that most of their sales come from buying the magazine in Lawson or 7-Eleven or Family Mart.

313
00:47:28.358 --> 00:47:38.648
That is the distribution mall, and, and bookstores as well, I think to the tune of, like, 98%, which surprised me. I didn't realize that there's, there's no subscription business in Japan.

314
00:47:39.088 --> 00:47:44.168
It just doesn't, just doesn't exist. And- Everything about the Japanese market I find so unique. I know. And also, but in a market where- They have a Tower Records...

315
00:47:44.208 --> 00:47:49.608
where, where, where the [laughs] where also where the postal system is so effective that you could probably drop it in the post in the morning and get it in the second delivery in the afternoon.

316
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So anyway, that, that was, I, I just think what they do is incredible. They just stick s- [laughs] they, they really stick to their guns, and they produce beautiful magazines. So enormous amount of respect for them.

317
00:48:00.208 --> 00:48:08.628
Sitting here in, in Paris, I really, I have a lot of time for the work that, two titles I really like. You're talking, you know, we're talking about Hearst before we went on, on air.

318
00:48:09.588 --> 00:48:18.718
The, the French edition of, of Harper's Bazaar Interior, their interiors magazine. Okay. Beautiful. I mean, just, it's, it's sumptuous. You know, we can look at a copy when we leave the room.

319
00:48:19.128 --> 00:48:27.378
It's just a really beautiful, indulgent, fantastic, you know... And also, it's, you know, it's a spinoff. It's a spinoff of the Harper's Bazaar brand. There's no interiors edition in, in the US.

320
00:48:27.378 --> 00:48:35.608
Is it a license, or is it o- operated by Hearst? It is... That's a very good question. I think, though, mostly it's a li- over here, I believe it is a licensee or it's a, or it's a JV.

321
00:48:35.628 --> 00:48:40.728
Yeah, I think they got out of- And then I, I touched on, you know, Le Monde. I think M Le Monde is a supplement. Great.

322
00:48:40.768 --> 00:48:44.688
It reminds me of what The New York Times Magazine used to be, and now they're really pushing into English.

323
00:48:45.188 --> 00:48:54.838
And they've just brought out their, they're now doing this biannual where they take M Le Monde as the weekly, translate it, and, and, and it becomes this book twice a year. So I like them.

324
00:48:55.268 --> 00:49:03.768
Crossing the border into Germany, I l- I really like Salon Magazine. It's a, maybe it's a more elegant version of, it's got shades of, of Martha Stewart.

325
00:49:04.088 --> 00:49:13.248
Nothing from a design point of view, but just that it is, it's a bit homemakery at so- at times. It really, but it captures the season. It's one of those magazines that, you know... What does a good magazine do?

326
00:49:13.298 --> 00:49:21.208
A good magazine is, is one which y- y- you know, if you really love it, it goes to the bottom of the pile because you wanna savor it. You wanna have a moment for it.

327
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So the, obviously, the titles I really, really like, I don't dive in right away. I sort of wait three or four days. You want them to age a little bit at home.

328
00:49:27.628 --> 00:49:51.648
And then maybe third thing in, in the world of, of media that I, I have, I have a lot of, I have a lot of time for, and, and that is, I, I don't wanna have to sort of swerve all the way back to, to Japan, but I just, I love the nature of the Japanese news daily, that you still have the world's biggest editions there in print [laughs] and- And, like, 28 million people get them.

329
00:49:51.828 --> 00:49:59.958
Yeah. And yeah, I, I, they all, they all read, and then, and, and they don't seem to have any d- digital business model. They're still deep-pocketed companies as well. Yeah.

330
00:50:00.008 --> 00:50:07.108
Let's see how long this lasts, so- Very peculiar media market... very, very peculiar. Very into physical media. Yeah, and I think also- People are collecting CDs.

331
00:50:07.268 --> 00:50:15.378
Yeah, they, they are, and it's, you know, who, and who would've thought? I mean, who would've thought that, you know, that the Financial Times, you know, would've, you know, been snatched up by a Japanese media company?

332
00:50:15.428 --> 00:50:24.448
Let's see how long that's gonna last as well. Heard that's a bit of a rumor- Yeah... out there. But anyway, but th- those are, you know, those are the things that I, I look at and, and I like at the moment. Okay.

333
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Tyler, thank you so much for doing this. Thank you. [outro music]