WEBVTT

1
00:00:00.100 --> 00:00:14.160
[on-hold music] Welcome to the Rebooting show. I am Brian Morrissey. This week's episode is brought to you by Piano.

2
00:00:14.320 --> 00:00:22.340
Piano's digital revenue optimization solution helps digital services grow revenue by better understanding and influencing their customers' behavior.

3
00:00:22.800 --> 00:00:35.900
Piano unifies analytics, segmentation, and commercial personalization in a single AI-driven application that enables sites and apps to efficiently maximize the value of every user visit.

4
00:00:36.280 --> 00:00:39.269
This is something that publishers have to focus on.

5
00:00:39.280 --> 00:00:49.670
Piano is headquartered in Amsterdam and has offices in the Americas, Europe, and Asia-Pacific, and it has a global client base, including BBC, Deutsche Telekom, Nikkei, and The Wall Street Journal.

6
00:00:50.200 --> 00:01:00.080
For more information about Piano, visit piano.io. I am heading to Paris in a couple of weeks to speak at the Piano Academy, which runs on October first and second.

7
00:01:00.240 --> 00:01:11.520
I'm very excited to be joining this event, not just because it's in Paris, which is in my top five cities in the world, but also because it brings together not just media companies, but those in other industries.

8
00:01:11.800 --> 00:01:16.300
Piano works not just in publishing, but as I said, across different sectors.

9
00:01:16.600 --> 00:01:26.280
And I've long felt publishing can sometimes be insular, and there are best practices and strategies from other sectors, believe it or not, that can be applied in the building of sustainable media businesses.

10
00:01:26.840 --> 00:01:37.060
I'm personally gonna be speaking on what won't change with AI because it's something that I've been pondering for a while, and I think sometimes we get sucked into a lot of Silicon Valley narratives.

11
00:01:37.180 --> 00:01:46.940
I know I am guilty of it. And sometimes it pays to take a step back, and this is something that Jeff Bezos has, has urged famously, that it's hard to predict what's gonna happen, so

12
00:01:47.840 --> 00:02:01.670
sometimes it's better just to focus on what won't change and to build your strategies around that. To find out more about the Piano Academy, visit academy.piano.io and send me a note if you're gonna be in Paris. Meet up.

13
00:02:02.430 --> 00:02:07.600
Also, check out the Total Monetization research report we recently completed in collaboration with Piano.

14
00:02:07.640 --> 00:02:13.970
We surveyed sixty-five publishers and we supplemented those findings with s-several stakeholder interviews at top media companies.

15
00:02:14.640 --> 00:02:25.250
And our goal was to get a, a temperature check on how publishers are aligning internally, in particular, in order to diversify their revenue strategies. You know, I...

16
00:02:25.260 --> 00:02:36.280
There's a lot of talk about North Star metrics and trying to get at the single, you know, measurement that brings together the disparate parts of, of a publishing organization.

17
00:02:36.380 --> 00:02:46.200
Publishing organizations are, are very complicated, I think, for the size of their businesses. And so that means that sometimes, you know, the different parts are working against each other.

18
00:02:46.220 --> 00:02:58.300
And I think in this more with less era, publishers are gonna have to make money in a bunch of different ways, and, you know, that can lead to some misalignment. And so we get into that, and I...

19
00:02:58.480 --> 00:03:06.049
You know, I'm biased, but I think it was a, it was a really good report. So check it out. You can find a link to it in the show notes, but also on rebooting.com.

20
00:03:07.040 --> 00:03:20.120
This week, on that topic, I spoke to Sherry Phillips, the CEO of Forbes, to dig into how Forbes is adapting its business now that its search traffic is down. What Sherry says is between thirty and forty percent.

21
00:03:20.710 --> 00:03:30.680
This is a common story in publishing. You know, I was just this morning at the Wired AI Power Forum, and I was struck by how publishing executives have really turned outwardly hostile to Google.

22
00:03:30.970 --> 00:03:37.100
Now, I've covered Google either directly a-as a reporter or as an editor for, I think, twenty-five years now. God.

23
00:03:37.700 --> 00:03:47.020
And there's never been a time I've seen this kind of fundamental antipathy, at least outwardly shared, at Google. Publishers would always grumble, you know, usually off the record.

24
00:03:47.680 --> 00:03:53.380
But, you know, the biggest publishers now are just saying that Google is a monopolist and cannot be trusted.

25
00:03:53.600 --> 00:04:03.220
Senator Richard Blumenthal used the nicety of saying-- of calling it lip service to describe big tech's typical approach to efforts to rein in their power. But top execs like People Inc.

26
00:04:03.400 --> 00:04:10.340
CEO Neil Vogel, Condé Nast's Roger Lynch, CNET's Mike Reed, and Vox's Jim Bankoff went further.

27
00:04:10.720 --> 00:04:20.100
I mean, they basically have seen Google kneecapping their businesses and then basically lying about it by saying that they're still sending tons of traffic to publishers.

28
00:04:20.500 --> 00:04:27.860
Meanwhile, like, [chuckles] one of these executives noted that they're using Google Analytics and it says the exact opposite. So I mean, some of this is...

29
00:04:28.400 --> 00:04:32.620
It's just telling people, it's gaslighting them in some way, shape, or form.

30
00:04:33.120 --> 00:04:44.660
And I'm gonna write, uh, in the Rebooting a little bit about, you know, one of the core fundamental issues in this, which is, you know, Google does not separate out its search crawler from its AI crawler.

31
00:04:45.060 --> 00:04:52.780
And that is not... It's not, it's not a technical decision, okay? Because, you know, as Neil had said, they can't block Google.

32
00:04:52.840 --> 00:05:02.840
They can block others, but they can't block Google because Google still sends l- sends search traffic. And publishers can't just cut that off completely because guess what?

33
00:05:03.200 --> 00:05:10.040
Google has been found to be a monopolist in search, so it is using its monopoly power.

34
00:05:10.080 --> 00:05:24.960
After it just wriggled out a h- a structural change to its business, it is still using its monopoly power in basically the next business. So I guess the lesson is the more things change, uh, the more they don't.

35
00:05:25.580 --> 00:05:40.220
Sherry and I don't get into the politics of all this, but we do discuss the sort of tactical ramifications, particularly as about how a big publisher like Forbes continues to change its businesses in response to these externalities.

36
00:05:40.320 --> 00:05:46.260
You know, publishing has always been about, you know, operating the old businesses while building the new businesses.

37
00:05:46.290 --> 00:06:02.224
And Forbes has long played into several parts of the digital publishing ecosystem, whether that's the traffic game with programmatic, whether that's affiliate, whether it's events or tentpole franchises, you name it.Forbes has really, you know, embraced any kind of new innovation.

38
00:06:02.284 --> 00:06:13.044
You know, I get into it [chuckles] with Shari sometimes, you know, to, to maybe to its, its detriment or its, its aggressive in doing this. But I think it's a good example of the power of brand.

39
00:06:13.184 --> 00:06:15.724
I mean, this is something that will not change with AI.

40
00:06:16.384 --> 00:06:32.164
And Shari and I talk about how Forbes maximizes the continued power of its brand in the name of, of revenue diversification and putting together these kind of integrated partnerships that, you know, if they're not AI-proof, they're about as close as you get in this world.

41
00:06:32.204 --> 00:06:35.044
I mean, you know, I look at, like, events, you know.

42
00:06:35.704 --> 00:06:54.544
Forbes does something like 200-plus events a year, and that's a kinda high-octane events business that it's not for everyone, for sure, but more publishers are going to be heavily involved in the convening business because, again, that is something that is not going to change with AI.

43
00:06:54.664 --> 00:07:06.384
People are still going to want to connect with other humans in, in an AI era. I just don't see that changing, ever. I hope you enjoy this episode. Be sure to rate and review it wherever you get your podcasts.

44
00:07:06.424 --> 00:07:22.664
Also, send me a note with feedback to Brian@theremove.com. Now, here's my conversation with Shari. [upbeat music] Shari, thank you for joining the podcast. I'm excited to be doing this. So excited to be here.

45
00:07:22.824 --> 00:07:33.984
Thank you for having me. Okay, so let's get into it. You know, we just did this report about, like, total monetization, and I think that is what every publisher is talking about.

46
00:07:34.444 --> 00:07:41.624
We can spend a little bit of time on the traffic declines, et cetera. People are seeing them. I'm sure you guys are seeing them, too.

47
00:07:41.784 --> 00:07:55.863
I think this is just part of changing these models to be, you know, very brand-centric, and then to figure out a bunch of different ways to make money under that sort of brand halo. And I think you guys, like...

48
00:07:55.884 --> 00:08:07.024
You know, I poke fun sometimes at, like, some of the lists. Uh, let's be honest here. Let's be transparent. Oh, I hear. I hear. [laughs] Okay. But at the same time, I think you guys have always...

49
00:08:07.063 --> 00:08:26.424
You know, not always, but I think, like, for a long time were early on to the fact that this is a brand, and when you have, like, a brand, there's a bunch of different ways to express that brand, and there's a bunch of different ways to create value from that brand, and then to, yes, extract some value from the value that you created with the brand.

50
00:08:26.484 --> 00:08:36.244
So I do... I'm gonna put that out there. So tell me where, like, you are putting your bets now under- Yeah... that sort of total monetization framework.

51
00:08:37.024 --> 00:08:51.204
I mean, I love the way you set it up brilliantly with total monetization, and I feel very grateful that we do have such a global iconic brand name. You can go anywhere in the world, and people know the name Forbes.

52
00:08:51.224 --> 00:09:01.264
And so I do think that gives us some elasticity to play a little bit, Brian. Mm-hmm. And so, you know, to your point, we all know what's happening, you know, with traffic. We're feeling it.

53
00:09:01.464 --> 00:09:14.244
And so where we play in those spaces where Forbes is known, Forbes has an engaged audience, where we have either some heritage or some unexpected area to partner.

54
00:09:14.624 --> 00:09:27.584
And so we've been doing that, we've been doing that for a really long time, Brian. I mean, I took over the live events business in, like, 2017, I think, and we really started expanding with different audiences there.

55
00:09:27.624 --> 00:09:37.724
We were really expanding on Forbes Under 30 and that younger audience, taking into markets that I'd n- I had never even heard of before.

56
00:09:37.764 --> 00:09:44.584
I mean, we were in countries that I didn't even know where I was flying to if they had an airport, but- [laughs] You're discovering countries.

57
00:09:44.604 --> 00:09:56.884
[laughs] I mean, Randalle, our chief content officer, who is the founder of Under 30, just loves to, loves to do that. He's an adventurer at heart and loves to celebrate entrepreneurship everywhere in the world.

58
00:09:56.984 --> 00:10:09.194
So we've had, you know, quite a run and so much fun with Under 30. And, and with that we've been able to... You know, Under 30 has 20 different categories that it celebrates every year.

59
00:10:09.884 --> 00:10:22.624
And so some of those categories have just really popped off, including creators and social media. So that list- Yeah... is, you know, 14 years old. Of course, you know, social media wasn't what it is now.

60
00:10:22.644 --> 00:10:34.264
And so with that, we were able to spin off a few things, including our Creators List two years ago, which we did an upfront last October that Walmart sponsored.

61
00:10:35.044 --> 00:10:47.204
And to have Walmart be a title sponsor of a Forbes Creator's Upfronts... Like, when I started in Forbes in 1996, I would've been like, "What are you talking about?" [laughs] None of those things go together.

62
00:10:47.624 --> 00:10:55.964
I'm seeing a lot of... You know, honestly, yesterday I was, like, walking through, like, Oculus- Uh-huh... and there was tons of Walmart, like, fashion ads out. So I don't know.

63
00:10:56.004 --> 00:10:58.284
Like, I mean, things are different these days, I guess, with Walmart. Things are different.

64
00:10:58.764 --> 00:11:10.384
But in 1996 when I was actually covering, you know, o- on the fashion kinda beat for Forbes, I would and not have thought that Walmart was- Yeah... gonna be doing our Creators Upfront. So, you know, it just...

65
00:11:10.704 --> 00:11:14.764
The brand has allowed us to do that in a really elegant way. And so

66
00:11:15.684 --> 00:11:26.384
we do have, y- you know, thankfully, this trusted journalism, like, like I said, allows us to go in places that are sometimes unexpected or sometimes where we've just earned- Yeah... that path.

67
00:11:26.414 --> 00:11:37.414
And it didn't happen overnight, Brian. I mean, Under 30's been out for 14 years. But these creators and even the Under 30s, like, they wanna be on that list 'cause it validates them.

68
00:11:38.204 --> 00:11:49.224
And whether you made the For- Forbes 400 list, which is coming out tomorrow, again, some people want to be on that, some people do not. The Forbes 400 is... are the rich people, right? The billionaires. Sorry, yeah.

69
00:11:49.554 --> 00:12:02.204
Yeah. My vernacular is, is very Forbesian. So we have, you know, that list, but then just our self-made women list, our self-made richest women in the world list, like, that list to me- How many are there in total?

70
00:12:02.944 --> 00:12:13.672
So in totalI'm gonna say we do over... Well, it depends what the shoot off. So I actually can't really... I'm gonna say we probably do about 100 to 150. Okay.

71
00:12:13.692 --> 00:12:23.002
But that's not counting like 30 under 30 is Becca Stem and what? No. [laughs] Okay. [laughs] Randall, if you're listening- Nah, but I will follow up with you on that...

72
00:12:23.012 --> 00:12:37.811
you gotta get, you gotta get yourself to Ulaanbaatar. [laughs] But no, our Power Women's Summit is on Wednesday. Yeah. I am... It's our 15th annual Power Women's Summit. Moira Forbes does an incredible job. Yeah.

73
00:12:37.852 --> 00:12:41.872
You know, just with such an incredible diverse array of talent that are speaking.

74
00:12:41.972 --> 00:12:57.612
I'm interviewing two of the just most incredible female tech executives of our time, one of which is the number one self-made richest female billionaire. Her name's Lucy Guo. And- Oh, yeah. She's the Scale.

75
00:12:57.672 --> 00:13:05.892
She's like a DJ too- Scale AI, yes... and whatnot, like, right? She's a DJ. She's... I was with her- She's a character. She's a creator. She's- I was with her yesterday, and you know what she said, Brian?

76
00:13:06.022 --> 00:13:15.332
Maybe this should be off the record too. But she said, "Do you know how many friends that come up to me that are like, 'How do I get on the Forbes Creators list?'" Oh, my God. "How do I actually do it?"

77
00:13:15.812 --> 00:13:23.591
So to have her validate- I think most of the people on the Forbes Creators list would like to be on the Forbes 400 list. [laughs] But that's always the case.

78
00:13:23.872 --> 00:13:34.372
The people on [laughs] the Forbes 400 list wanna be on the Forbes Creators list. The Forbes Creators list is like, "You could be on here. We'll be-" Sure. Sure. We'll take you youngins. So yeah, no, it's, it's...

79
00:13:34.432 --> 00:13:43.472
Like, moments like that are really proud. And then also May Habib, who started Writer, the tech company Writer. Have you- Yeah... heard of that? Yeah. So I'm interviewing the two of them on Wednesday.

80
00:13:43.512 --> 00:13:50.972
So just to sit on a stage like that with those two remarkable women is incredible. And for them to share their story. Mm.

81
00:13:51.052 --> 00:14:02.231
And, you know, Brian, when we talk about success like this, like, even with AI, I mean, we all know, we're talking it, we're consuming it every day like junkies. It's not overnight, Brian. None of this was overnight.

82
00:14:02.272 --> 00:14:16.092
Like, you know, both of these women founded their companies in like 2015 or 2016 or 2017. Even if they were 17, it was still over a decade ago, right? Or close to a decade ago. Yeah. So it's not like they were...

83
00:14:16.872 --> 00:14:27.312
It was the hard work and the learning and the testing and all of that, the grind and the hustle that got them to where they were. And I think, you know, that's kind of what a Forbes story is.

84
00:14:27.372 --> 00:14:36.392
It's that entrepreneurship- Yeah... the grind and the hustle. So how do you break out, like, when we talk about, like, total monetization, like, how do you break out the different buckets, right?

85
00:14:36.552 --> 00:14:46.932
So I wanna talk about the events and the franchises, but I don't know, like, what are the categories that you end up looking at? Like, I mean, it used to be sort of print versus digital, but there...

86
00:14:46.972 --> 00:14:48.762
It's, it's, you know- It's not. Yeah...

87
00:14:48.792 --> 00:14:59.412
one of the things that, that stood out in this research we did, and I think this is one of the challenges of modern media, is you have to make money in so many different ways- Mm-hmm...

88
00:14:59.472 --> 00:15:03.832
that you end up having misalignment. But so like- Yeah...

89
00:15:03.872 --> 00:15:23.922
and I, I think, like, Forbes, and, and I mean this, like, you, you guys have always, like, leaned into, we're gonna try all kinds of different, you know, a-avenues, and we're, we're not going to, for a, a brand with a ton of legacy, I think you guys have, like, leaned into a lot of different things.

90
00:15:24.212 --> 00:15:35.792
Yes. So how do you break them out? How do you bucket them? So I look at media, and then, so media is about half of that, Brian, and that includes, you know, digital, all forms of digital, programmatic, social.

91
00:15:36.452 --> 00:15:45.312
It includes print, branded content. And then I- Okay... look at our vetted business, which is our e-commerce business, and then our licensing business.

92
00:15:46.152 --> 00:15:55.032
The, the licensing is a big, a big piece of it because that's where I think we have a lot of room to grow. Licensing, e-commerce.

93
00:15:55.812 --> 00:16:06.692
I mean, I would say newsletters and social media and mobile, all of that, you know, are part of integrated media, as are live events. That all really falls under one bucket. That's how I, I look at the revenue. Okay.

94
00:16:07.272 --> 00:16:11.972
How is that shifting? Let's, let's st-stick in the media bucket. Yeah. Like, how are things shifting in there?

95
00:16:12.012 --> 00:16:28.452
Because seems to me like a lot of these brands, like, ads on pages, whether it's, it's, uh, on magazine pages or on web pages, are becoming, like, less important to the overall business.

96
00:16:28.752 --> 00:16:37.622
I mean, that is why- Absolutely... like, you're gonna be at an event tomorrow. Like, you know, there's events, like, nonstop. I would love to have a global number of events that Forbes...

97
00:16:37.642 --> 00:16:42.312
'Cause Forbes has always done a ton of events, and like, I- I can share that with you off the top of my- As someone who came from- I can tell you that...

98
00:16:42.332 --> 00:16:51.292
a company that did a ton of events, I always looked at, like, you know, at Forbes, I was like, "Wow, you guys do a lot of them." Yeah. We do a lot. We do... Last year, we did 115, Brian. Yeah. That's like- Yeah...

99
00:16:51.322 --> 00:17:03.482
that's- And I would say since I was at the helm of events, we were doing 100 easy each year. I mean, it wasn't, wasn't like we flipped on a model and, you know, we were- Yeah... increasingly going more.

100
00:17:03.692 --> 00:17:12.032
So what's growing, I guess? I, I wanna- So what's growing? I wanna, I wanna be optimistic. What is growing? Yeah. I mean, listen, I think you're hearing it from a lot of the other publishers as well.

101
00:17:12.172 --> 00:17:24.272
I mean, we're seeing video, social, and newsletters and, and also kind of that combination of those three, depending on what our customers are looking for, so that targeted content.

102
00:17:24.292 --> 00:17:33.102
And then also live events is growing as well. We always did a lot, so there's a lot of people out there. It's a more mature business at Forbes- It's very mature... right?

103
00:17:33.132 --> 00:17:40.452
I think there's a lot of people on our heels, [laughs] which, you know- Yeah... is, is tough to stave off. But we've...

104
00:17:40.992 --> 00:17:53.682
We have a really good formula inside, and I think because it's live journalism and we're able to, you know, also engage with the communities that are really trusted, like our CMO community.

105
00:17:53.832 --> 00:18:02.632
We have that event next week with Seth Matlins in Aspen. Then after that, we have our sustainability summit the next week, our impact summit.

106
00:18:02.712 --> 00:18:13.872
We do that the week of UN week because it's easier-You know, to attract world leaders. And then the week after that, that Sunday, we leave for Forbes Under 30. So it's...

107
00:18:13.932 --> 00:18:26.232
We have the September, October second half schedule's insane. So Semafor, I think, I think Justin said they're now over 50% events, and I'm sure that surprised some people. I thought they had already been there, there.

108
00:18:26.482 --> 00:18:39.252
Yeah. And it seems pretty clear that that model- They have a couple really good ones. We haven't tried yet, Brian, and, and we may at some point, like gone that mass route of like thousands of people and selling tickets.

109
00:18:39.332 --> 00:18:53.552
That's not our model. Like, we've really stayed in, you know, kind of that smaller community, really high touch area- Yeah... because it's something that we know is, you know- Yeah, the CMO event is by its nature...

110
00:18:53.592 --> 00:19:05.312
I mean, it's interesting because I think you can go a few different ways with events. It's like one of the great things about events is they, they have scarcity. Yeah. You know, despite there being a million events.

111
00:19:05.392 --> 00:19:18.332
But like, th- there is like a scarcity to events and, you know, I think one of the hard parts of it is like sometimes your incentives are to dilute the, the, the value in some ways because- Yeah...

112
00:19:18.352 --> 00:19:28.302
you know, once you've, once you've rented the place in Aspen or whatnot, and you've got the caterers and stuff, adding a few more people is not [laughs] gonna... You know, the... I understand those, those pressures.

113
00:19:28.372 --> 00:19:44.812
But like there is scarcity to events, and I think their, their bet is, is to do like really big- Yeah... rather than the typical events model at publishers, which is not... 'Cause it's like if you look at like...

114
00:19:45.692 --> 00:19:51.872
If you look at the biggest like and most lucrative events, they're not run by media companies. No. So we'll see. I mean, that could change.

115
00:19:51.912 --> 00:20:03.732
And listen, I'm not, I'm not saying no to partnerships in that area either because I think it would be interesting down the road. But yeah, we have a full slate and I'm really excited about it.

116
00:20:03.772 --> 00:20:21.561
And, you know, we're, we're doing fun stuff in this space too where, you know, certainly with AI all of our partners have really cool activations coming up, and that'll just start increasing that creativity and that engagement and interaction with people on site, and then offsite, you know, how we engage with people virtually.

117
00:20:22.492 --> 00:20:34.592
It's a better format. It's a better, feels better, more- Yeah... inclusive, shorter video form, all of that. Okay. Would you tell me how much like events is as a percentage of the business? Yes.

118
00:20:34.892 --> 00:20:49.952
I will say right now, probably this year it's gonna end up being between 25 and 30%. Is that like the high water mark or is that like steady? That is a little h- No. You know, there's growth there, but it's been high.

119
00:20:50.032 --> 00:20:59.912
Yeah. It's been- 'Cause you've done a lot of events... it's been like that for the past couple years, Brian. And I feel like your like events strategy is really an outgrowth almost of like the franchise strategy.

120
00:21:00.592 --> 00:21:06.272
It's an outgrowth of the franchise strategy, but it's also super tied into integrated media.

121
00:21:06.492 --> 00:21:17.312
Like, there is barely any sponsorship dollars that are going into the events business that aren't tied to an integrated media program- Yeah... because it ladders back to franchise, right?

122
00:21:17.322 --> 00:21:27.882
So if someone wants to engage with the Under 30 community, they're sponsoring the summit, they're sponsoring the list, they're sponsi- sponsoring, you know, potentially digital media- Yes... or, you know,

123
00:21:28.822 --> 00:21:38.912
a social profile, all of that. Right. Because that is... I think sometimes people miss out on events. It's like, depending on the event, like, you know, the margins can be different for the different types of events.

124
00:21:38.992 --> 00:21:42.492
But, you know, having... Ads are good.

125
00:21:42.632 --> 00:21:54.072
Like, they're good margin [laughs] like, you know, like, and like h- using the scarcity of, of the physical event rather than just like selling lanyard sponsorships or whatnot, or the key card.

126
00:21:54.152 --> 00:21:58.652
I like the key card sponsorship personally. Yeah. But it, it comes back to the journalism, Brian. So like- Yeah...

127
00:21:58.752 --> 00:22:12.272
you know, if, if, if we hadn't created Under 30 and, and it hadn't been that wild success, then we wouldn't have the event, we wouldn't have the, the list and the digital media and all the things that we're, that we've been able to grow as a part of that.

128
00:22:12.412 --> 00:22:21.762
And, and really grow because the audience said, "Hey, this would be really cool if you could set up this networking area," or, "If you could set up, you know, meetups for VC funds and..."

129
00:22:22.452 --> 00:22:32.922
You know, we don't just put out the same event every year. It's, you know, it's how do we make it better? How do we make the audience feel like they got more value out of it? So yeah. Yeah. It's a fun part of it.

130
00:22:32.922 --> 00:22:44.152
I met Shaquille O'Neal at a Forbes 30 Under 30. He wasn't under 30, and I wasn't under 30. [laughs] Wait, in Boston, Brian? At, at South by Southwest many years ago. Oh, y- Brian, you know, that was like our first one.

131
00:22:44.312 --> 00:22:54.502
[laughs] Oh, was it? Yeah. So- He's a massive man. This is no news probably [laughs] to other people. He comes... I, I, I... Yeah. He comes to a few of our things. He is, he is a very large man. And he was cool.

132
00:22:54.552 --> 00:23:04.752
He was very fun. He knows how to... The thing that I appreciated about Shaq is like he knows that like people are a little uneasy being around someone as large as he is. Yeah. And like he sort of plays it up.

133
00:23:04.792 --> 00:23:18.352
Like, he dropped his hand on my shoulder, and I was like... And it was like this thud. [laughs] And he just like, he does it like for effect. So if anyone meets Shaquille, know he's, he's kind of fun to- in that way.

134
00:23:18.362 --> 00:23:29.452
You know, I will say too, we have... There's so many, you know, retired athletes or in- that are investors that really want to be seen as, you know- Oh, yeah. A-Rod.

135
00:23:30.072 --> 00:23:41.272
Well- I think A-Rod's been to more events in this industry than I have this year. Well, and especially ours that are on financial services or investing. Yeah. So we do an Iconoclast summit. And man, he was working it.

136
00:23:41.312 --> 00:23:46.302
He was on stage. He was... But really nice guy, by the way. Yeah. No, events are good.

137
00:23:46.332 --> 00:23:54.812
They're good when you, when you have like celebrities or like athletes at these kind of events, you realize that like everyone's, everyone's in the hustle. So like it doesn't matter who you are.

138
00:23:55.112 --> 00:24:07.312
Like, it's like I don't know whether that's- Everyone's selling... a good or a bad realization, [laughs] but it doesn't matter. It doesn't matter. So like talk to me about like the creator angle- Yeah... to this. Yeah.

139
00:24:07.342 --> 00:24:20.072
You know, people are all talking about creators, and obviously there is this tension, right? Like, where you have extremely strong brands like Forbes that, that are built over, over decades, right? Mm-hmm.

140
00:24:20.082 --> 00:24:30.501
And that has- True... a ton of equity that's in them.At the same time, like, there's a lot of immediate equity in, in creators. Mm-hmm.

141
00:24:30.612 --> 00:24:41.982
And I think there's obviously been a shift from institutions to individuals across all parts of society, right? And I know you guys have done stuff in the, in the creator world.

142
00:24:42.012 --> 00:24:50.632
I remember like during the like early newsletter sort of days talking to someone at Forbes about like a, a newsletter network that you guys were working on.

143
00:24:51.132 --> 00:25:05.302
But like what-- how do you think about like how a really great brand like Forbes plays in the sort of creator space? 'Cause I think a lot of times they're looked at as sort of i-ep-opposites, right? Mm-hmm.

144
00:25:05.312 --> 00:25:17.032
But I think inevitably they, they-- there's strengths on both sides. Yeah. I mean, well, listen, the creators are entrepreneurs, right? That's, that's what they are. They're entrepreneurs.

145
00:25:17.092 --> 00:25:25.532
They're trying to make their money. They're trying to connect to these brands. But I think along the way, Brian, like they need that validation, right?

146
00:25:25.552 --> 00:25:32.312
So they need either that validation from Forbes or that alas- you know, alignment with Forbes, whatever word you wanna use.

147
00:25:32.992 --> 00:25:42.332
And whether that's a distribution, whether that's, you know, a partnership, but a lot of these creators don't know how to make money at the end of the day.

148
00:25:42.392 --> 00:25:50.472
Like it's, it's a quick, you know, like you're saying, it's that quick, "I wanna be this overnight, but yet I need a long sustainable business."

149
00:25:50.752 --> 00:26:01.712
And so how do I parlay that into different demographics, different audiences? So I think for us there's a lot of-- you know, we're still at the top of the work to be done with creators, but- Mm-hmm...

150
00:26:01.732 --> 00:26:14.852
yet these large tech companies are saying, "We're using your lists and your methodology for how these creators are-- who the top creators are, how, how they're making their money, you know, what their longevity and sustainability will be."

151
00:26:15.342 --> 00:26:26.812
So it's exciting. Okay, so you're not looking at-- you're looking-- obviously they're like a, a vibrant economic sector, but do you, do you see a role or are you doing anything whereas Forbes can be...

152
00:26:27.652 --> 00:26:39.252
I mean, in some ways you guys were like an early, like, creator platform really- Yeah... with brand voice. Like I feel like with brand voice and just opening, opening the platform up to, to contributors, right?

153
00:26:39.452 --> 00:26:51.722
Like I feel that- There's news there, but I, I- Oh... don't wanna go on the record with it yet. Oh, well, then you can't do that. [laughing] It's no fun. How, how, that's so fun. How about you and I d- Okay...

154
00:26:51.732 --> 00:26:58.532
we'll circle back on that. You'll be the first I tell before anybody else. Okay. How's that? [chuckles] All right. Yeah- But yes...

155
00:26:58.541 --> 00:27:08.492
because like I, I, you know, because I think that, that you guys were early to it, right? Yeah. With individual voices and giving individual voices like a platform- Yes... to, to express it, right? Mm-hmm.

156
00:27:08.562 --> 00:27:27.232
And it seems like most like publish-- big publishers are, are thinking about how they can tap into the energy of, of the creator space, whether that is by elevating their own, quote-unquote, "talent," right?

157
00:27:27.592 --> 00:27:41.612
And having, a-and having them be more-- like, I mean, you look at like the Vox model, like, you know, uh, I'll do one of these with, like, Ryan Polly, and he just wants to talk-- he wants to talk about, like, you know, talent and bringing talent to the table, you know?

158
00:27:41.852 --> 00:27:47.712
Not, not as much about the programmatic, which I'm fine with, like- [chuckles]... you know, talking about programmatically, [chuckles] so kind of glad.

159
00:27:48.292 --> 00:28:02.112
But how do you end up- There are, there are-- Listen, there's so many things that we've done in our past, as you've mentioned, that are teaching us what to do with this new audience, and then there's so many new shiny bells and whistles that you can build off of it so much more quickly now, Brian.

160
00:28:02.152 --> 00:28:08.992
Like so many products- Mm-hmm... and ways that, you know, are still within our trusted editorial.

161
00:28:09.092 --> 00:28:20.572
You know, we're not infringing on anything, but there's just so much to do in this space, and it's exciting, and it's modern. And it's not to say that this is where everyone's dollars are going.

162
00:28:20.632 --> 00:28:31.772
I mean, yes, we're still gonna celebrate our other communities, but I do think it's a really fun space, and we're really excited to be doing work in it. Yeah. So.

163
00:28:31.782 --> 00:28:35.682
So what are you hearing from your, from your partners, from the advertisers? Yeah.

164
00:28:35.712 --> 00:28:48.602
Like how are they seeing a brand like Forbes and what you can give them in this-- Like I, I always say that, you know, performance marketing has sort of eaten, like, media in s- in some ways. Yeah.

165
00:28:48.632 --> 00:28:57.232
Like every-- like the platforms have sort of trained, you know, marketers to think of, like, you know, the, the customer vending machines and whatnot.

166
00:28:57.292 --> 00:29:05.632
Doesn't mean that branding doesn't, doesn't take place, but obviously- Right... the, the weight is in performance. It's in performance, yeah.

167
00:29:05.712 --> 00:29:10.672
I mean, listen, people still want those conversions, even if they say they don't, you know?

168
00:29:10.772 --> 00:29:18.912
So we're-- it's, it's usually, though, the mix, it's the media mix, Brian, where people can come back and say, "Okay, well, this part of the buy worked.

169
00:29:19.372 --> 00:29:30.712
This part we couldn't measure, but it's okay 'cause it was fun or nice to have, or it rounded out the program, or..." But I think it's people still wanna see that ROI.

170
00:29:31.012 --> 00:29:43.482
They trust Forbes, so they're not gonna get, you know, too much pushback if, if they're going with a known brand and a known franchise of ours that reaches their audience. But it's still really hard, Brian.

171
00:29:43.592 --> 00:29:48.652
I mean, I think, I think marketers are really confused, as they should be. We are, you know?

172
00:29:48.732 --> 00:30:00.972
It's, it's a tough time to say, "This is gonna work," and, but audiences are, you know, not just going direct to chat and all of that to get the answers that they need.

173
00:30:01.052 --> 00:30:11.412
So I think we're all feeling-- figuring out, you know... I always laugh at people who are like, "Oh, we have this tool that can measure this, and, you know, we know, you know, that we're ahead of the curve on this."

174
00:30:11.472 --> 00:30:14.432
I'm like, "No, you're not. No one, no one's ahead of the curve on any of this."

175
00:30:14.512 --> 00:30:26.716
And I, it-- I get cynical about it in a way because I just want people to be honest and say, "This is gonna take us a few years to figure this out," and that, like-You know, I think I said it when you and I were at that event.

176
00:30:26.776 --> 00:30:37.456
It's like we're at the start of this track race, right? And some people are gonna finish strong, [chuckles] some people are not. But it also does call for some relay races, and that it would be really nice.

177
00:30:37.546 --> 00:30:47.996
And I, I do feel like publishers are doing that in a way, where we're all coming together to figure out, like, "Okay, you're good at this, you're good at that, like, let's do some partnerships together."

178
00:30:48.036 --> 00:30:56.646
And, and we've been doing that for a while. I mean, we have a great partnership with LinkedIn, we have a great partnership on YouTube, but exploring those kinds of things- Mm...

179
00:30:56.676 --> 00:31:05.756
right now is, is definitely paying off for us. Sorry, I just went on a tangent about, you know- It's okay... things that, you know, I think work and things that don't.

180
00:31:05.936 --> 00:31:16.156
But our YouTube partnership is, is awesome, and so that's been, that's been a huge, huge part of our breaking news editorial channel, and that's been doing really well.

181
00:31:16.386 --> 00:31:28.056
And then LinkedIn, we have a great partnership with them. So I think, you know, testing some of those things out, and partners trust... You know, Forbes is the most trusted partner on LinkedIn.

182
00:31:28.536 --> 00:31:42.056
I think it was according to... I think it's according to LinkedIn. So, you know, we have areas to move and to expand media programs. Yeah, I wonder, how do you end up thinking about the investment in, in journalism?

183
00:31:42.116 --> 00:31:52.916
Because, I mean, it is at the heart, and, like, everyone will say it's at the heart of what they do and, and I... And it's true, yes. Yeah. However, as businesses, they... And I always get in trouble when I say this.

184
00:31:53.036 --> 00:32:01.676
It's like they're, they're making their money off of like, I guess what you call shoulder businesses, in many cases more money than, than directly.

185
00:32:01.756 --> 00:32:21.416
So like it used to be you create journalistic content and people would, would pay either with their attention, there'd be ads and pages between articles or around the articles and web pages, sometimes with an autoplay video and whatnot, or they pay for access, they get a subscription to a magazine, or they, they take a digital subscription, et cetera.

186
00:32:21.436 --> 00:32:21.986
Right.

187
00:32:22.216 --> 00:32:40.516
It, it seems like the, the way of a lot of these businesses is moving, particularly when they have an extremely strong brand, into businesses that are almost like tang- I don't wanna say tangential to it, but they're, they're attached to it, but it's not like direct in some ways, right?

188
00:32:40.636 --> 00:32:53.816
Like we talk about like events, like yes, events are, are, you know... Yeah, they're live journalism and whatnot, but like really, like there's um... They're using the brand and they're expressing it in a different way.

189
00:32:54.156 --> 00:33:04.706
And, and anyone who's done an event like will- knows that like you have to get the cocktail party right is just as important as like getting the stage stuff right. Like- Right...

190
00:33:04.706 --> 00:33:11.856
there are different types of events, but, but the reality is it's the people in the room, and, and the journalism facilitates that.

191
00:33:11.896 --> 00:33:17.576
But how do you end up thinking about like how, particularly, I mean, you guys are doing a lot of stuff- Yeah...

192
00:33:17.616 --> 00:33:25.465
that is outside of the core journalistic product, and I think most modern media companies, that is the direction they're going. Right.

193
00:33:25.496 --> 00:33:38.876
Do you just think it can be hard to figure out then what is the role of the journalistic product? I think it's, it's a blend. And I think, Brian, a lot of that depends on the talent and what...

194
00:33:39.696 --> 00:33:52.436
You know, for instance, y- yes, we have our lists and, you know, I think highest paid NFL players came out last week and, you know, billionaires is coming out tomorrow, Forbes 400. It's, so it's...

195
00:33:52.776 --> 00:34:00.496
The people that do that and kind of- Wait, the highest paid NFL players? Came out last week. Oh, really? Yeah. But that's like known, isn't it? Like, I mean, there's just a list with the...

196
00:34:00.536 --> 00:34:07.495
They have to file their contracts. Or are you looking at their off-field earnings? Okay. I don't know. I would think off-field. But I'll get back to you on that. I mean, listen, there is...

197
00:34:07.616 --> 00:34:17.156
I love the sports reporters, though. They're super fun. They're really fun to talk to. So there's, there's like the lists, right? And then you have someone who is

198
00:34:18.176 --> 00:34:25.836
so ferocious about getting a story or a scoop that it's like their live and breathe. It's like those are like the true...

199
00:34:25.916 --> 00:34:31.556
It's, it's, it's what makes a Forbes story great, and they have these sessions or editors every couple- Yeah...

200
00:34:31.566 --> 00:34:40.196
of weeks, and I sit in on, on them 'cause I'm like, "Damn, these guys should be out selling on the street 'cause they are so competitive." [chuckles] They're like- But it's almost an uneconomic activity.

201
00:34:40.296 --> 00:34:45.406
I mean, this is the unfortunate part about it. But it is. But it's why the brand is great. It's like, you know, it's, you know- Yeah...

202
00:34:45.445 --> 00:34:50.556
someone said they, they're not supposed to be a billionaire and our fact checker's went over like, "No, sorry dude, you're a billionaire."

203
00:34:50.636 --> 00:34:56.616
Like, so I, I think there's, you know, there, there's differences with the editors and the reporters.

204
00:34:56.716 --> 00:35:04.656
Like you have the lists, you have like those people that are in there beating them like, "Ah, I gotta get this story on Elon right now 'cause it's, it's gonna, it's gonna move the market."

205
00:35:05.296 --> 00:35:14.056
And then you have people who want to build communities, that build these different communities that come together and are like, "We need this guy on the u- under 30 list.

206
00:35:14.136 --> 00:35:26.216
We need this woman on the creators list 'cause she just blew up over here and no one knows her name." And so I think it's that intensity and that ferocity of like, "Yeah, this is Forbes, and we need to have..."

207
00:35:26.256 --> 00:35:36.216
I mean, last night there were two people that performed on, what was it? The Video Music Awards, the VMAs, that I had never heard of. I started watching it, the first 10 minutes I was like...

208
00:35:36.236 --> 00:35:40.566
And I, I think I know music, and I actually sit down and watch something like that and I'm like, "I don't know what I'm talking about."

209
00:35:41.096 --> 00:35:50.646
But we had two of the people that won awards last night are performing at under 30 at the end of the month, and when people were saying their name, you know, in the building, I was like, "What are you talking about?

210
00:35:50.696 --> 00:35:58.056
I've never heard of this person before." So I- we do try to be... You know, for Forbes, it's about getting that scoop, it's about being ahead, and I think it just...

211
00:35:58.096 --> 00:36:05.376
You have, you have to know and trust your editors that there is a time and a place for their content where it's gonna resonate.

212
00:36:05.456 --> 00:36:16.216
And again, sometimes that's on stage, sometimes it's on a list, sometimes it's, you know, on the cover, getting to something that we never thought would be on the cover. But so it makes it fun, right?

213
00:36:16.256 --> 00:36:29.942
It's like who wants, who wants a formula for- Yeah, that's true. So let's talk about AI for a little bit. I mean, obviously, you know, traffic is down. Is that like that's my...Yeah. The, the search? Yeah. Yeah.

214
00:36:29.952 --> 00:36:45.992
It's down. [laughs] Yes, it is. Like, how much? Like... Depending on the day, Brian, and I... You know, there just does not seem to be a real warning on it, and I'm sure every person you talk to will say the same thing.

215
00:36:46.052 --> 00:36:53.212
I'd say it's down about between 40, like around 30 to 40%, depending- Oof... on the day. Yeah.

216
00:36:53.292 --> 00:37:06.582
So that, that impacts, I would guess that that impacts most directly your programmatic business, and then also- It's, it, it is... your commerce business. The direct digital business is up right now- Okay...

217
00:37:06.592 --> 00:37:16.861
which is interesting. But then, but mostly- The one-... you're not selling, you're not selling... Excuse me. You're not selling like just, like- Correct... ads on pages usually with your sales. Mm-hmm.

218
00:37:16.872 --> 00:37:24.352
You know, you're, you're doing packages, integrated media. Correct. Yeah. The only nice thing I will say on programmatic is we're able to...

219
00:37:24.452 --> 00:37:36.892
'Cause, 'cause of the scarcity, we're able to charge, high, the CPMs are going up. Oh, good. So. Well- Little bit of goodness? You know, fewer M's you're gonna have. [laughs] That's the problem. [laughs] Fewer M's.

220
00:37:36.952 --> 00:37:39.852
You don't want 40%- Yeah... fewer M's, Keith. No.

221
00:37:39.912 --> 00:37:52.632
And so there, but, you know, what, what we have done, and we started doing it, you know, like in May and June, is looking at branded content and the way we're packaging things, that it's not necessarily CPM driven.

222
00:37:52.772 --> 00:38:02.412
But the programmatic is the programmatic and, you know, you can't- Yeah, that's true... you can't. N- no one's gonna fix that in the short term right now.

223
00:38:03.232 --> 00:38:15.372
And, you know, for us it's been how do we just double down on the diversification and these partnerships, like I said, with you too- Yeah... and LinkedIn and... But the licensing's also really interesting, too.

224
00:38:15.392 --> 00:38:22.312
But go back to AI. But yeah- 'Cause-... but commerce. Like, so commerce, I mean, you guys have, like two halves to your commerce business, right? Mm-hmm. Yeah.

225
00:38:22.342 --> 00:38:35.832
There's Vetted, which you, you do, and then there's Marketplace, which is a partnership. Correct. Correct. That's correct. Okay. I see, I see ads from Forbes, like w- way more frequently. I don't know, this is just me.

226
00:38:35.932 --> 00:38:44.222
Um, like, you know, when I search on things. It's probably 'cause you're talking about us on- No, no, no. You know what I mean. Like, when you f- No, I know... when you, when I search for things- Yeah...

227
00:38:44.272 --> 00:38:56.032
like, I think one of the things is SEO is, like way harder. You know, commerce to me was, was, when people would talk about the pivot to video, they were talking about a pivot to Facebook.

228
00:38:56.432 --> 00:39:07.652
And when people were talking about commerce, they were talking about affiliate, but they were really talking about SEO. The, the SEO gravy train has, has sort of gone off the [laughs] the, the side of the road.

229
00:39:08.252 --> 00:39:21.632
Yes, as Ozzie would say, RIP it... Listen, we're, we're not doing as bad as... You know, we're not pacing and forecasting as bad as we thought we might. So the business is still there, but I think we just have...

230
00:39:21.672 --> 00:39:32.752
You know, we're looking at new and creative ways on how to look at that business. But it was never, Brian, like... You know, it was a slice of the business. It's, you know, 10%. Okay.

231
00:39:33.352 --> 00:39:39.652
You know, so it's not like we're heavily- It's not existential... relying on that. It's not existential. Yeah. No. It means, uh- But it's interesting.

232
00:39:39.712 --> 00:39:47.222
I do see, like- It means me getting on a plane and going to more countries that I can't pronounce. Ex- exactly, huh? [laughs] It's a good way to see the world. Yeah.

233
00:39:47.252 --> 00:39:59.321
But yeah, no, I just, I just, I've just noticed, I just, I just think that, like a lot more publishers will end up needing to be ad buyers too, because they're gonna have to give up margin, but it's more predictable, and- Yes...

234
00:39:59.352 --> 00:40:04.222
the brand makes it more efficient. You know? Like if you see- Correct...

235
00:40:04.232 --> 00:40:25.302
that's the sort of reason I th- feel like that affiliate really worked well with these brands is because, you know, when you see them next to other random sites or Reddit, whatever, a lot of people w- will say, "Well, I, I, I will, I will trust, you know, this well-known brand way more-" Right...

236
00:40:25.302 --> 00:40:39.282
"than I would random site." Right. Yeah. Yes. Also on AI, like what are your sort of stances on that? I don't know what is, is, does, does Forbes have a, a deal with b- any of the OpenAI, or certainly not Google?

237
00:40:39.332 --> 00:40:56.072
We have a couple small ones. Nothing large. Brian, I did a reorg of the team in early July. Mm-hmm. And so that, and I don't know if you saw any of the news around that, Brian, but the positioning on that was to...

238
00:40:56.112 --> 00:41:18.012
And I was thinking about this kind of from the moment I came into the job, was really before we were, you know, the, all the heat was on AI really, was how do we weave through the organization more efficiently, and how does transformation AI, at the start of it, how does it weave through in a way that is organic through the brand?

239
00:41:18.072 --> 00:41:29.532
You know, editorial, product, advertising, you know, what- whatever, whatever that path, that journey looks like. And so we announced that in July.

240
00:41:29.562 --> 00:41:39.732
It's a gentleman named Kyle Winansky, who's worked at Forbes for a long time, and he's the chief business officer, but it's, you know, chief business officer/AI strategic partnerships.

241
00:41:40.452 --> 00:41:59.812
And so what he's doing there is really looking at, like I said, AI transformation as it comes from really video first, and then how that video first is articulated through our social platforms, and then how do we, you know, kind of product that and monetize that.

242
00:42:00.352 --> 00:42:08.132
Okay. So is it, like are you using AI as an, as an efficiency tool right now? I assume you are, and most- We are internally, yes... most companies are trying to.

243
00:42:08.592 --> 00:42:17.252
I mean, I see, I, research that, that we have done ha- have shown like a big gap between- Yeah... sort of strategy and execution.

244
00:42:17.352 --> 00:42:27.262
I think that's been borne out, like, across at least the early studies of, of companies' success with- Yeah... with these AI tools.

245
00:42:27.292 --> 00:42:36.156
Like there's a lot of promiseI hear a lot, "It will, it will," you know, "We're not gonna have any nurses in five years," or whatever. Like, uh, nothing will, will, will shock me at this point. [chuckles] Right.

246
00:42:36.256 --> 00:42:46.636
Like, of- Right... some prediction but at the same time, it doesn't seem like it's yet been some kinda game changer internally. And I think- No...

247
00:42:46.646 --> 00:42:56.576
publishers are under tons of pressure to do more with less, so there's a lot of, you know, the publishing f- publishing businesses are very com- complex really for their size- Yeah... I think.

248
00:42:57.016 --> 00:43:01.616
And so I think they, they would be great test cases, yet at the same time, I don't know.

249
00:43:01.656 --> 00:43:10.166
Like, when people I talk to and, and, like, our research, I don't, I don't yet see that, that those promises are, are, have, have been realized just yet.

250
00:43:10.896 --> 00:43:20.496
And I would say the same for us, and we're using a multitude of them, Brian, to see, like, in, in which area of the company we can- Mm... be more efficient, particularly on the business side.

251
00:43:20.916 --> 00:43:31.456
But there's so much project management work that happens on the, in, within publishers that don't think most people realize, like, [chuckles] how labor intense the project management is.

252
00:43:32.096 --> 00:43:43.596
And so for that, that automation should be, we should be closer to it than we are, and hopefully we'll start to... Like, all the, all the data reporting, all the analysis, all the...

253
00:43:43.636 --> 00:43:55.236
So all of that hopefully will be, you know, more of a 2026, because we are using them. And, you know, the promise is there, as you said, so I'm k- And listen, I mean, you play around with the tools.

254
00:43:55.296 --> 00:44:02.306
You know when you're using something and you're like, "Oh, that was really good." Like, "That got, like, kinda 90 to 95% accurate for me"- Yeah...

255
00:44:02.316 --> 00:44:12.556
if I was, like, giving a speech or, you know, put in my speech that I wrote myself and then said, "Clean this up for me." But- Yeah, like I just asked- Yeah, so- I just asked ChatGPT if, if Trump had criticized Forbes.

256
00:44:13.056 --> 00:44:22.076
I didn't, I didn't... I knew he had, but it was over the Forbes 400 list, so we'll see if... Who knows? You could be called out some- [chuckles] That's, that's what, that's what I said.

257
00:44:22.276 --> 00:44:31.636
[laughs] Maybe we'll have to revisit this- Maybe... this podcast, depending on what the Forbes 400 list- Yeah... uh, says tomorrow. Stay tuned till [laughs] Tom- [laughs] Yeah. There, there's... The... And you know what?

258
00:44:31.716 --> 00:44:40.076
He has come around several times on us. Yeah, you'll get a nickname. We'll see, Sherry. He's c- he's come around on us several times on that. [chuckles] Yes. It's a rollercoaster with him, I believe.

259
00:44:40.096 --> 00:44:44.286
But he wants to be on the list. He always wants to be on the list. Many years that he was not, he was like, "I'm not gonna do that."

260
00:44:44.336 --> 00:44:54.876
Okay, so he's one of the bill- He's, he's one of the people who wanna be on the Forbes 400 list, and then there's another group of people who don't wanna be on the Forbes Fr- 400 list. That is correct. Interesting.

261
00:44:54.936 --> 00:45:03.516
That is correct. Interesting. But, you know, it's in a song, so yeah. Well, Forbes is in a lot of music, I've noticed. Yeah. Like, and I think that is, like, a testament to the brand.

262
00:45:03.596 --> 00:45:16.636
I mean, you, you definitely hear it in a lot of hip hop. Yes. Tell me a- about, like, do you... Are you keeping AI from, fr- like, it... What about its use within content and, like, editorial- Within content?

263
00:45:17.476 --> 00:45:27.876
Not in edit yet. I think, you know what, Brian? I think, listen, if the editors wanna use some tools to do what I just said, you know what I mean? What about contributors? Are you vetting that stuff? We are vetting it.

264
00:45:28.196 --> 00:45:38.305
We do have a tool that, you know... And, and we've found some bad actors in there and kicked them out. Okay. So yeah, we had the tool pretty early on that could suss it out,

265
00:45:39.206 --> 00:45:48.746
but there's bad actors and, you know, people just... It's almost like... I, I don't even know. I mean, it's a shortcut- But it's a shortcut and people will use it... but it's a shortcut. I think it'll become- Yeah...

266
00:45:48.746 --> 00:45:59.836
normalized, but, like, I do... I'm sure you use a lot of AI tools in... You know, it's going through big data sets and, and whatnot, a lot of these- Well, and the design team uses them a lot. Yeah.

267
00:46:00.016 --> 00:46:11.286
And, you know, stuff like that that's not gonna, you know, impact a market or somebody's life or... But yeah, there's, there's efficiencies to be had, and we're, we're playing around with them.

268
00:46:11.616 --> 00:46:21.916
So yes, internally we are using them, less so on the editorial side. And then externally, Kyle Vanansky, our chief business officer- Mm-hmm... he's the one that's exploring those partnerships.

269
00:46:22.176 --> 00:46:32.636
And, you know, it still feels like it's, I don't know, it's, like, early, late, middle days. I don't even know what to say about it, Brian, anymore. [chuckles] Like, you- Are you, are you blo- are you blocking bots?

270
00:46:32.696 --> 00:46:41.926
And I don't know if you use Cloudflare. I, I was talking with, with one of the Cloudflare- I'm not here... executives for a podcast just yesterday. How- Yeah... how are you, like, how are you guys approaching this?

271
00:46:41.996 --> 00:46:56.896
Are you, are you not looking at it? I mean, different businesses have different exposure levels to, to this. Correct. Correct. I mean, we are blocking, you know, the bad actors where we can, but it's hard.

272
00:46:57.016 --> 00:47:04.956
I think it's, you know, it's one of those things where the terrain is rocky, and so I think for us right now- Yeah... I, I don't know if partnering- Well, they're also customers, aren't they?

273
00:47:05.216 --> 00:47:17.206
I mean- They are, and I don't know if partnering with just one is a great, is the solution. Yeah. And I, you know, aside from, like, the one or two deals we've heard about,

274
00:47:18.156 --> 00:47:26.626
who's really making money off these, and are these just headline grabs, Brian? Yeah. For people to say, like, "Ooh, I, you know, struck this deal," and...

275
00:47:27.296 --> 00:47:33.096
I mean, we know, we know the one or two people that are gonna make money off of it right now. Yeah. It'll, it, it will be interesting.

276
00:47:33.156 --> 00:47:44.036
I mean, it seems like there needs to be, like, a grand bargain that gets struck in some ways, and, you know, I know the, the lawsuit against Anthropic, you know, it's, it's kind of ironic.

277
00:47:44.096 --> 00:47:50.576
They, they could've gotten away with all of it, which basically just taking all of these, this book content- Uh-huh...

278
00:47:50.656 --> 00:48:01.526
and, and sucking it up in, as training data, but they just got impatient and went to some piracy library instead of just buying all the books and scanning them or whatever. And so they just paid a, a...

279
00:48:01.536 --> 00:48:12.076
You know, they just got a $1.3 billion judgment- Yeah... against them just for being impatient. So, so, you know, it was funny 'cause we were, my husband and I were talking about it this morning. Like, do we...

280
00:48:12.116 --> 00:48:16.146
Like, what, what is that gonna mean for them long term? Like- Yeah, I don't know.

281
00:48:16.216 --> 00:48:26.046
I mean, look, the hope is that, you know, the- they're starting to hit the limits, I guess, of, you know, these things are always assumed to expand linearly, and they're hitting- Yeah...

282
00:48:26.046 --> 00:48:42.692
a little bit of the limits of what these models can do, and probably they all become-They all reach parity very quickly, and so differentiating based on the quality of the, of, of the inputs could be, at the very least, a very handy marketing, you know?

283
00:48:43.192 --> 00:48:44.522
[chuckles] So it would- Yeah.

284
00:48:44.532 --> 00:49:00.272
And maybe as the co-cost of compute falls, then some of the money that is going, is getting poured into compute and data centers can be used to actually reward the people who actually made that, quote-unquote, "data," which other people call journalism.

285
00:49:00.552 --> 00:49:14.572
[laughs] To an extent. Well, and I, I'm sure you guys are following this too, but the, you know, we are part of the News Media Alliance. Yeah. And part of that, you know, consortium with the suit on Cohere. So- Right...

286
00:49:14.612 --> 00:49:16.642
I mean, it's small, but I...

287
00:49:16.981 --> 00:49:31.112
This, this is where I say, like, the relay race is important because when the publishers do band together, like, again, could turn out to be nothing, could turn out to be small, but I do think they're doing good work down there at News Media Alliance, and we'll see.

288
00:49:31.712 --> 00:49:40.931
You know? I mean, it's like every day there's another ruling that comes out, and I'm like, "Are we ahead? Are we backwards? Are we..." [laughs] Yeah, exactly. Where are publishers standing, you know?

289
00:49:41.492 --> 00:49:49.752
Final thing is, like, what i- what is, like, a, a part of the business we haven't discussed that, that you are excited about? I'm really excited about...

290
00:49:49.812 --> 00:50:05.172
I mean, the global piece I am really excited about because the name resonates everywhere. We're in 67 countries with 43 local language editions, and Brian, that's all print mostly. Yeah. So that's crazy, right?

291
00:50:05.732 --> 00:50:15.192
[laughs] Like... I was in Serbia two weeks ago. Forbes Serbia's there, for sure. [laughs] See? What were you doing over there? My wife's, [laughs] my wife is Serbian. She spoke at a Forbes- Oh...

292
00:50:15.222 --> 00:50:23.912
Forbes Serbia event a f- couple years ago, actually. Oh, did she really? Yeah. God, I'd love to find out about that. So I think the global piece of it is really, really exciting.

293
00:50:24.132 --> 00:50:36.152
And then I do think just with, like, partnerships and JVs, like, it's like people come to us every day and we, you know, we really have to evaluate the ones that are worth, you know, the consideration and the time.

294
00:50:36.192 --> 00:50:47.532
But people are really thirsty for partnerships right now and, and we're exploring some. Some are working and, you know, some we'll have to pass on just because can't do it all. But I do like where we're headed.

295
00:50:47.792 --> 00:50:53.032
I, I feel like, you know, and maybe Deidre... Was it Deidre from- Yeah... your last one? Deidre Lister. Yeah. Yeah.

296
00:50:53.072 --> 00:51:04.852
It's like, you know, she kinda said that y- I think all media people are like this, that you're just, you're constantly in that state of, like, thriving in chaos. Yeah. And [laughs] Yeah.

297
00:51:04.932 --> 00:51:16.572
Unfortunately, it's not good for, you know, our sleep. But I think at the end of the day, like, thriving in that chaos of, like, yeah, we went from print to digital. Like, yes, we saw, like, the economy almost collapse.

298
00:51:16.672 --> 00:51:26.772
Yes, we had to, like, all reinvent our brands and ourselves and pivot. I don't know. There's something fun in that, right? That like [instrumental music] hey, let's just go for what's next 'cause

299
00:51:27.672 --> 00:51:41.192
at the end of the day, this brand does give us some pretty cool access that I've been, had the pleasure and privilege of having for most of my career, so. Okay. Awesome. Shari, thank you so much for joining me today.

300
00:51:41.202 --> 00:51:51.912
It was a great conversation. Yeah. Thanks, Brian. [outro music]