[on-hold music] Welcome to the Rebooting show. I am Brian Morrissey. This week's episode is brought to you by Piano.
Piano's digital revenue optimization solution helps digital services grow revenue by better understanding and influencing their customers' behavior.
Piano unifies analytics, segmentation, and commercial personalization in a single AI-driven application that enables sites and apps to efficiently maximize the value of every user visit.
This is something that publishers have to focus on.
Piano is headquartered in Amsterdam and has offices in the Americas, Europe, and Asia-Pacific, and it has a global client base, including BBC, Deutsche Telekom, Nikkei, and The Wall Street Journal.
For more information about Piano, visit piano.io. I am heading to Paris in a couple of weeks to speak at the Piano Academy, which runs on October first and second.
I'm very excited to be joining this event, not just because it's in Paris, which is in my top five cities in the world, but also because it brings together not just media companies, but those in other industries.
Piano works not just in publishing, but as I said, across different sectors.
And I've long felt publishing can sometimes be insular, and there are best practices and strategies from other sectors, believe it or not, that can be applied in the building of sustainable media businesses.
I'm personally gonna be speaking on what won't change with AI because it's something that I've been pondering for a while, and I think sometimes we get sucked into a lot of Silicon Valley narratives.
I know I am guilty of it. And sometimes it pays to take a step back, and this is something that Jeff Bezos has, has urged famously, that it's hard to predict what's gonna happen, so
sometimes it's better just to focus on what won't change and to build your strategies around that. To find out more about the Piano Academy, visit academy.piano.io and send me a note if you're gonna be in Paris. Meet up.
Also, check out the Total Monetization research report we recently completed in collaboration with Piano.
We surveyed sixty-five publishers and we supplemented those findings with s-several stakeholder interviews at top media companies.
And our goal was to get a, a temperature check on how publishers are aligning internally, in particular, in order to diversify their revenue strategies. You know, I...
There's a lot of talk about North Star metrics and trying to get at the single, you know, measurement that brings together the disparate parts of, of a publishing organization.
Publishing organizations are, are very complicated, I think, for the size of their businesses. And so that means that sometimes, you know, the different parts are working against each other.
And I think in this more with less era, publishers are gonna have to make money in a bunch of different ways, and, you know, that can lead to some misalignment. And so we get into that, and I...
You know, I'm biased, but I think it was a, it was a really good report. So check it out. You can find a link to it in the show notes, but also on rebooting.com.
This week, on that topic, I spoke to Sherry Phillips, the CEO of Forbes, to dig into how Forbes is adapting its business now that its search traffic is down. What Sherry says is between thirty and forty percent.
This is a common story in publishing. You know, I was just this morning at the Wired AI Power Forum, and I was struck by how publishing executives have really turned outwardly hostile to Google.
Now, I've covered Google either directly a-as a reporter or as an editor for, I think, twenty-five years now. God.
And there's never been a time I've seen this kind of fundamental antipathy, at least outwardly shared, at Google. Publishers would always grumble, you know, usually off the record.
But, you know, the biggest publishers now are just saying that Google is a monopolist and cannot be trusted.
Senator Richard Blumenthal used the nicety of saying-- of calling it lip service to describe big tech's typical approach to efforts to rein in their power. But top execs like People Inc.
CEO Neil Vogel, Condé Nast's Roger Lynch, CNET's Mike Reed, and Vox's Jim Bankoff went further.
I mean, they basically have seen Google kneecapping their businesses and then basically lying about it by saying that they're still sending tons of traffic to publishers.
Meanwhile, like, [chuckles] one of these executives noted that they're using Google Analytics and it says the exact opposite. So I mean, some of this is...
It's just telling people, it's gaslighting them in some way, shape, or form.
And I'm gonna write, uh, in the Rebooting a little bit about, you know, one of the core fundamental issues in this, which is, you know, Google does not separate out its search crawler from its AI crawler.
And that is not... It's not, it's not a technical decision, okay? Because, you know, as Neil had said, they can't block Google.
They can block others, but they can't block Google because Google still sends l- sends search traffic. And publishers can't just cut that off completely because guess what?
Google has been found to be a monopolist in search, so it is using its monopoly power.
After it just wriggled out a h- a structural change to its business, it is still using its monopoly power in basically the next business. So I guess the lesson is the more things change, uh, the more they don't.
Sherry and I don't get into the politics of all this, but we do discuss the sort of tactical ramifications, particularly as about how a big publisher like Forbes continues to change its businesses in response to these externalities.
You know, publishing has always been about, you know, operating the old businesses while building the new businesses.
And Forbes has long played into several parts of the digital publishing ecosystem, whether that's the traffic game with programmatic, whether that's affiliate, whether it's events or tentpole franchises, you name it.Forbes has really, you know, embraced any kind of new innovation.
You know, I get into it [chuckles] with Shari sometimes, you know, to, to maybe to its, its detriment or its, its aggressive in doing this. But I think it's a good example of the power of brand.
I mean, this is something that will not change with AI.
And Shari and I talk about how Forbes maximizes the continued power of its brand in the name of, of revenue diversification and putting together these kind of integrated partnerships that, you know, if they're not AI-proof, they're about as close as you get in this world.
I mean, you know, I look at, like, events, you know.
Forbes does something like 200-plus events a year, and that's a kinda high-octane events business that it's not for everyone, for sure, but more publishers are going to be heavily involved in the convening business because, again, that is something that is not going to change with AI.
People are still going to want to connect with other humans in, in an AI era. I just don't see that changing, ever. I hope you enjoy this episode. Be sure to rate and review it wherever you get your podcasts.
Also, send me a note with feedback to Brian@theremove.com. Now, here's my conversation with Shari. [upbeat music] Shari, thank you for joining the podcast. I'm excited to be doing this. So excited to be here.
Thank you for having me. Okay, so let's get into it. You know, we just did this report about, like, total monetization, and I think that is what every publisher is talking about.
We can spend a little bit of time on the traffic declines, et cetera. People are seeing them. I'm sure you guys are seeing them, too.
I think this is just part of changing these models to be, you know, very brand-centric, and then to figure out a bunch of different ways to make money under that sort of brand halo. And I think you guys, like...
You know, I poke fun sometimes at, like, some of the lists. Uh, let's be honest here. Let's be transparent. Oh, I hear. I hear. [laughs] Okay. But at the same time, I think you guys have always...
You know, not always, but I think, like, for a long time were early on to the fact that this is a brand, and when you have, like, a brand, there's a bunch of different ways to express that brand, and there's a bunch of different ways to create value from that brand, and then to, yes, extract some value from the value that you created with the brand.
So I do... I'm gonna put that out there. So tell me where, like, you are putting your bets now under- Yeah... that sort of total monetization framework.
I mean, I love the way you set it up brilliantly with total monetization, and I feel very grateful that we do have such a global iconic brand name. You can go anywhere in the world, and people know the name Forbes.
And so I do think that gives us some elasticity to play a little bit, Brian. Mm-hmm. And so, you know, to your point, we all know what's happening, you know, with traffic. We're feeling it.
And so where we play in those spaces where Forbes is known, Forbes has an engaged audience, where we have either some heritage or some unexpected area to partner.
And so we've been doing that, we've been doing that for a really long time, Brian. I mean, I took over the live events business in, like, 2017, I think, and we really started expanding with different audiences there.
We were really expanding on Forbes Under 30 and that younger audience, taking into markets that I'd n- I had never even heard of before.
I mean, we were in countries that I didn't even know where I was flying to if they had an airport, but- [laughs] You're discovering countries.
[laughs] I mean, Randalle, our chief content officer, who is the founder of Under 30, just loves to, loves to do that. He's an adventurer at heart and loves to celebrate entrepreneurship everywhere in the world.
So we've had, you know, quite a run and so much fun with Under 30. And, and with that we've been able to... You know, Under 30 has 20 different categories that it celebrates every year.
And so some of those categories have just really popped off, including creators and social media. So that list- Yeah... is, you know, 14 years old. Of course, you know, social media wasn't what it is now.
And so with that, we were able to spin off a few things, including our Creators List two years ago, which we did an upfront last October that Walmart sponsored.
And to have Walmart be a title sponsor of a Forbes Creator's Upfronts... Like, when I started in Forbes in 1996, I would've been like, "What are you talking about?" [laughs] None of those things go together.
I'm seeing a lot of... You know, honestly, yesterday I was, like, walking through, like, Oculus- Uh-huh... and there was tons of Walmart, like, fashion ads out. So I don't know.
Like, I mean, things are different these days, I guess, with Walmart. Things are different.
But in 1996 when I was actually covering, you know, o- on the fashion kinda beat for Forbes, I would and not have thought that Walmart was- Yeah... gonna be doing our Creators Upfront. So, you know, it just...
The brand has allowed us to do that in a really elegant way. And so
we do have, y- you know, thankfully, this trusted journalism, like, like I said, allows us to go in places that are sometimes unexpected or sometimes where we've just earned- Yeah... that path.
And it didn't happen overnight, Brian. I mean, Under 30's been out for 14 years. But these creators and even the Under 30s, like, they wanna be on that list 'cause it validates them.
And whether you made the For- Forbes 400 list, which is coming out tomorrow, again, some people want to be on that, some people do not. The Forbes 400 is... are the rich people, right? The billionaires. Sorry, yeah.
Yeah. My vernacular is, is very Forbesian. So we have, you know, that list, but then just our self-made women list, our self-made richest women in the world list, like, that list to me- How many are there in total?
So in totalI'm gonna say we do over... Well, it depends what the shoot off. So I actually can't really... I'm gonna say we probably do about 100 to 150. Okay.
But that's not counting like 30 under 30 is Becca Stem and what? No. [laughs] Okay. [laughs] Randall, if you're listening- Nah, but I will follow up with you on that...
you gotta get, you gotta get yourself to Ulaanbaatar. [laughs] But no, our Power Women's Summit is on Wednesday. Yeah. I am... It's our 15th annual Power Women's Summit. Moira Forbes does an incredible job. Yeah.
You know, just with such an incredible diverse array of talent that are speaking.
I'm interviewing two of the just most incredible female tech executives of our time, one of which is the number one self-made richest female billionaire. Her name's Lucy Guo. And- Oh, yeah. She's the Scale.
She's like a DJ too- Scale AI, yes... and whatnot, like, right? She's a DJ. She's... I was with her- She's a character. She's a creator. She's- I was with her yesterday, and you know what she said, Brian?
Maybe this should be off the record too. But she said, "Do you know how many friends that come up to me that are like, 'How do I get on the Forbes Creators list?'" Oh, my God. "How do I actually do it?"
So to have her validate- I think most of the people on the Forbes Creators list would like to be on the Forbes 400 list. [laughs] But that's always the case.
The people on [laughs] the Forbes 400 list wanna be on the Forbes Creators list. The Forbes Creators list is like, "You could be on here. We'll be-" Sure. Sure. We'll take you youngins. So yeah, no, it's, it's...
Like, moments like that are really proud. And then also May Habib, who started Writer, the tech company Writer. Have you- Yeah... heard of that? Yeah. So I'm interviewing the two of them on Wednesday.
So just to sit on a stage like that with those two remarkable women is incredible. And for them to share their story. Mm.
And, you know, Brian, when we talk about success like this, like, even with AI, I mean, we all know, we're talking it, we're consuming it every day like junkies. It's not overnight, Brian. None of this was overnight.
Like, you know, both of these women founded their companies in like 2015 or 2016 or 2017. Even if they were 17, it was still over a decade ago, right? Or close to a decade ago. Yeah. So it's not like they were...
It was the hard work and the learning and the testing and all of that, the grind and the hustle that got them to where they were. And I think, you know, that's kind of what a Forbes story is.
It's that entrepreneurship- Yeah... the grind and the hustle. So how do you break out, like, when we talk about, like, total monetization, like, how do you break out the different buckets, right?
So I wanna talk about the events and the franchises, but I don't know, like, what are the categories that you end up looking at? Like, I mean, it used to be sort of print versus digital, but there...
It's, it's, you know- It's not. Yeah...
one of the things that, that stood out in this research we did, and I think this is one of the challenges of modern media, is you have to make money in so many different ways- Mm-hmm...
that you end up having misalignment. But so like- Yeah...
and I, I think, like, Forbes, and, and I mean this, like, you, you guys have always, like, leaned into, we're gonna try all kinds of different, you know, a-avenues, and we're, we're not going to, for a, a brand with a ton of legacy, I think you guys have, like, leaned into a lot of different things.
Yes. So how do you break them out? How do you bucket them? So I look at media, and then, so media is about half of that, Brian, and that includes, you know, digital, all forms of digital, programmatic, social.
It includes print, branded content. And then I- Okay... look at our vetted business, which is our e-commerce business, and then our licensing business.
The, the licensing is a big, a big piece of it because that's where I think we have a lot of room to grow. Licensing, e-commerce.
I mean, I would say newsletters and social media and mobile, all of that, you know, are part of integrated media, as are live events. That all really falls under one bucket. That's how I, I look at the revenue. Okay.
How is that shifting? Let's, let's st-stick in the media bucket. Yeah. Like, how are things shifting in there?
Because seems to me like a lot of these brands, like, ads on pages, whether it's, it's, uh, on magazine pages or on web pages, are becoming, like, less important to the overall business.
I mean, that is why- Absolutely... like, you're gonna be at an event tomorrow. Like, you know, there's events, like, nonstop. I would love to have a global number of events that Forbes...
'Cause Forbes has always done a ton of events, and like, I- I can share that with you off the top of my- As someone who came from- I can tell you that...
a company that did a ton of events, I always looked at, like, you know, at Forbes, I was like, "Wow, you guys do a lot of them." Yeah. We do a lot. We do... Last year, we did 115, Brian. Yeah. That's like- Yeah...
that's- And I would say since I was at the helm of events, we were doing 100 easy each year. I mean, it wasn't, wasn't like we flipped on a model and, you know, we were- Yeah... increasingly going more.
So what's growing, I guess? I, I wanna- So what's growing? I wanna, I wanna be optimistic. What is growing? Yeah. I mean, listen, I think you're hearing it from a lot of the other publishers as well.
I mean, we're seeing video, social, and newsletters and, and also kind of that combination of those three, depending on what our customers are looking for, so that targeted content.
And then also live events is growing as well. We always did a lot, so there's a lot of people out there. It's a more mature business at Forbes- It's very mature... right?
I think there's a lot of people on our heels, [laughs] which, you know- Yeah... is, is tough to stave off. But we've...
We have a really good formula inside, and I think because it's live journalism and we're able to, you know, also engage with the communities that are really trusted, like our CMO community.
We have that event next week with Seth Matlins in Aspen. Then after that, we have our sustainability summit the next week, our impact summit.
We do that the week of UN week because it's easier-You know, to attract world leaders. And then the week after that, that Sunday, we leave for Forbes Under 30. So it's...
We have the September, October second half schedule's insane. So Semafor, I think, I think Justin said they're now over 50% events, and I'm sure that surprised some people. I thought they had already been there, there.
Yeah. And it seems pretty clear that that model- They have a couple really good ones. We haven't tried yet, Brian, and, and we may at some point, like gone that mass route of like thousands of people and selling tickets.
That's not our model. Like, we've really stayed in, you know, kind of that smaller community, really high touch area- Yeah... because it's something that we know is, you know- Yeah, the CMO event is by its nature...
I mean, it's interesting because I think you can go a few different ways with events. It's like one of the great things about events is they, they have scarcity. Yeah. You know, despite there being a million events.
But like, th- there is like a scarcity to events and, you know, I think one of the hard parts of it is like sometimes your incentives are to dilute the, the, the value in some ways because- Yeah...
you know, once you've, once you've rented the place in Aspen or whatnot, and you've got the caterers and stuff, adding a few more people is not [laughs] gonna... You know, the... I understand those, those pressures.
But like there is scarcity to events, and I think their, their bet is, is to do like really big- Yeah... rather than the typical events model at publishers, which is not... 'Cause it's like if you look at like...
If you look at the biggest like and most lucrative events, they're not run by media companies. No. So we'll see. I mean, that could change.
And listen, I'm not, I'm not saying no to partnerships in that area either because I think it would be interesting down the road. But yeah, we have a full slate and I'm really excited about it.
And, you know, we're, we're doing fun stuff in this space too where, you know, certainly with AI all of our partners have really cool activations coming up, and that'll just start increasing that creativity and that engagement and interaction with people on site, and then offsite, you know, how we engage with people virtually.
It's a better format. It's a better, feels better, more- Yeah... inclusive, shorter video form, all of that. Okay. Would you tell me how much like events is as a percentage of the business? Yes.
I will say right now, probably this year it's gonna end up being between 25 and 30%. Is that like the high water mark or is that like steady? That is a little h- No. You know, there's growth there, but it's been high.
Yeah. It's been- 'Cause you've done a lot of events... it's been like that for the past couple years, Brian. And I feel like your like events strategy is really an outgrowth almost of like the franchise strategy.
It's an outgrowth of the franchise strategy, but it's also super tied into integrated media.
Like, there is barely any sponsorship dollars that are going into the events business that aren't tied to an integrated media program- Yeah... because it ladders back to franchise, right?
So if someone wants to engage with the Under 30 community, they're sponsoring the summit, they're sponsoring the list, they're sponsi- sponsoring, you know, potentially digital media- Yes... or, you know,
a social profile, all of that. Right. Because that is... I think sometimes people miss out on events. It's like, depending on the event, like, you know, the margins can be different for the different types of events.
But, you know, having... Ads are good.
Like, they're good margin [laughs] like, you know, like, and like h- using the scarcity of, of the physical event rather than just like selling lanyard sponsorships or whatnot, or the key card.
I like the key card sponsorship personally. Yeah. But it, it comes back to the journalism, Brian. So like- Yeah...
you know, if, if, if we hadn't created Under 30 and, and it hadn't been that wild success, then we wouldn't have the event, we wouldn't have the, the list and the digital media and all the things that we're, that we've been able to grow as a part of that.
And, and really grow because the audience said, "Hey, this would be really cool if you could set up this networking area," or, "If you could set up, you know, meetups for VC funds and..."
You know, we don't just put out the same event every year. It's, you know, it's how do we make it better? How do we make the audience feel like they got more value out of it? So yeah. Yeah. It's a fun part of it.
I met Shaquille O'Neal at a Forbes 30 Under 30. He wasn't under 30, and I wasn't under 30. [laughs] Wait, in Boston, Brian? At, at South by Southwest many years ago. Oh, y- Brian, you know, that was like our first one.
[laughs] Oh, was it? Yeah. So- He's a massive man. This is no news probably [laughs] to other people. He comes... I, I, I... Yeah. He comes to a few of our things. He is, he is a very large man. And he was cool.
He was very fun. He knows how to... The thing that I appreciated about Shaq is like he knows that like people are a little uneasy being around someone as large as he is. Yeah. And like he sort of plays it up.
Like, he dropped his hand on my shoulder, and I was like... And it was like this thud. [laughs] And he just like, he does it like for effect. So if anyone meets Shaquille, know he's, he's kind of fun to- in that way.
You know, I will say too, we have... There's so many, you know, retired athletes or in- that are investors that really want to be seen as, you know- Oh, yeah. A-Rod.
Well- I think A-Rod's been to more events in this industry than I have this year. Well, and especially ours that are on financial services or investing. Yeah. So we do an Iconoclast summit. And man, he was working it.
He was on stage. He was... But really nice guy, by the way. Yeah. No, events are good.
They're good when you, when you have like celebrities or like athletes at these kind of events, you realize that like everyone's, everyone's in the hustle. So like it doesn't matter who you are.
Like, it's like I don't know whether that's- Everyone's selling... a good or a bad realization, [laughs] but it doesn't matter. It doesn't matter. So like talk to me about like the creator angle- Yeah... to this. Yeah.
You know, people are all talking about creators, and obviously there is this tension, right? Like, where you have extremely strong brands like Forbes that, that are built over, over decades, right? Mm-hmm.
And that has- True... a ton of equity that's in them.At the same time, like, there's a lot of immediate equity in, in creators. Mm-hmm.
And I think there's obviously been a shift from institutions to individuals across all parts of society, right? And I know you guys have done stuff in the, in the creator world.
I remember like during the like early newsletter sort of days talking to someone at Forbes about like a, a newsletter network that you guys were working on.
But like what-- how do you think about like how a really great brand like Forbes plays in the sort of creator space? 'Cause I think a lot of times they're looked at as sort of i-ep-opposites, right? Mm-hmm.
But I think inevitably they, they-- there's strengths on both sides. Yeah. I mean, well, listen, the creators are entrepreneurs, right? That's, that's what they are. They're entrepreneurs.
They're trying to make their money. They're trying to connect to these brands. But I think along the way, Brian, like they need that validation, right?
So they need either that validation from Forbes or that alas- you know, alignment with Forbes, whatever word you wanna use.
And whether that's a distribution, whether that's, you know, a partnership, but a lot of these creators don't know how to make money at the end of the day.
Like it's, it's a quick, you know, like you're saying, it's that quick, "I wanna be this overnight, but yet I need a long sustainable business."
And so how do I parlay that into different demographics, different audiences? So I think for us there's a lot of-- you know, we're still at the top of the work to be done with creators, but- Mm-hmm...
yet these large tech companies are saying, "We're using your lists and your methodology for how these creators are-- who the top creators are, how, how they're making their money, you know, what their longevity and sustainability will be."
So it's exciting. Okay, so you're not looking at-- you're looking-- obviously they're like a, a vibrant economic sector, but do you, do you see a role or are you doing anything whereas Forbes can be...
I mean, in some ways you guys were like an early, like, creator platform really- Yeah... with brand voice. Like I feel like with brand voice and just opening, opening the platform up to, to contributors, right?
Like I feel that- There's news there, but I, I- Oh... don't wanna go on the record with it yet. Oh, well, then you can't do that. [laughing] It's no fun. How, how, that's so fun. How about you and I d- Okay...
we'll circle back on that. You'll be the first I tell before anybody else. Okay. How's that? [chuckles] All right. Yeah- But yes...
because like I, I, you know, because I think that, that you guys were early to it, right? Yeah. With individual voices and giving individual voices like a platform- Yes... to, to express it, right? Mm-hmm.
And it seems like most like publish-- big publishers are, are thinking about how they can tap into the energy of, of the creator space, whether that is by elevating their own, quote-unquote, "talent," right?
And having, a-and having them be more-- like, I mean, you look at like the Vox model, like, you know, uh, I'll do one of these with, like, Ryan Polly, and he just wants to talk-- he wants to talk about, like, you know, talent and bringing talent to the table, you know?
Not, not as much about the programmatic, which I'm fine with, like- [chuckles]... you know, talking about programmatically, [chuckles] so kind of glad.
But how do you end up- There are, there are-- Listen, there's so many things that we've done in our past, as you've mentioned, that are teaching us what to do with this new audience, and then there's so many new shiny bells and whistles that you can build off of it so much more quickly now, Brian.
Like so many products- Mm-hmm... and ways that, you know, are still within our trusted editorial.
You know, we're not infringing on anything, but there's just so much to do in this space, and it's exciting, and it's modern. And it's not to say that this is where everyone's dollars are going.
I mean, yes, we're still gonna celebrate our other communities, but I do think it's a really fun space, and we're really excited to be doing work in it. Yeah. So.
So what are you hearing from your, from your partners, from the advertisers? Yeah.
Like how are they seeing a brand like Forbes and what you can give them in this-- Like I, I always say that, you know, performance marketing has sort of eaten, like, media in s- in some ways. Yeah.
Like every-- like the platforms have sort of trained, you know, marketers to think of, like, you know, the, the customer vending machines and whatnot.
Doesn't mean that branding doesn't, doesn't take place, but obviously- Right... the, the weight is in performance. It's in performance, yeah.
I mean, listen, people still want those conversions, even if they say they don't, you know?
So we're-- it's, it's usually, though, the mix, it's the media mix, Brian, where people can come back and say, "Okay, well, this part of the buy worked.
This part we couldn't measure, but it's okay 'cause it was fun or nice to have, or it rounded out the program, or..." But I think it's people still wanna see that ROI.
They trust Forbes, so they're not gonna get, you know, too much pushback if, if they're going with a known brand and a known franchise of ours that reaches their audience. But it's still really hard, Brian.
I mean, I think, I think marketers are really confused, as they should be. We are, you know?
It's, it's a tough time to say, "This is gonna work," and, but audiences are, you know, not just going direct to chat and all of that to get the answers that they need.
So I think we're all feeling-- figuring out, you know... I always laugh at people who are like, "Oh, we have this tool that can measure this, and, you know, we know, you know, that we're ahead of the curve on this."
I'm like, "No, you're not. No one, no one's ahead of the curve on any of this."
And I, it-- I get cynical about it in a way because I just want people to be honest and say, "This is gonna take us a few years to figure this out," and that, like-You know, I think I said it when you and I were at that event.
It's like we're at the start of this track race, right? And some people are gonna finish strong, [chuckles] some people are not. But it also does call for some relay races, and that it would be really nice.
And I, I do feel like publishers are doing that in a way, where we're all coming together to figure out, like, "Okay, you're good at this, you're good at that, like, let's do some partnerships together."
And, and we've been doing that for a while. I mean, we have a great partnership with LinkedIn, we have a great partnership on YouTube, but exploring those kinds of things- Mm...
right now is, is definitely paying off for us. Sorry, I just went on a tangent about, you know- It's okay... things that, you know, I think work and things that don't.
But our YouTube partnership is, is awesome, and so that's been, that's been a huge, huge part of our breaking news editorial channel, and that's been doing really well.
And then LinkedIn, we have a great partnership with them. So I think, you know, testing some of those things out, and partners trust... You know, Forbes is the most trusted partner on LinkedIn.
I think it was according to... I think it's according to LinkedIn. So, you know, we have areas to move and to expand media programs. Yeah, I wonder, how do you end up thinking about the investment in, in journalism?
Because, I mean, it is at the heart, and, like, everyone will say it's at the heart of what they do and, and I... And it's true, yes. Yeah. However, as businesses, they... And I always get in trouble when I say this.
It's like they're, they're making their money off of like, I guess what you call shoulder businesses, in many cases more money than, than directly.
So like it used to be you create journalistic content and people would, would pay either with their attention, there'd be ads and pages between articles or around the articles and web pages, sometimes with an autoplay video and whatnot, or they pay for access, they get a subscription to a magazine, or they, they take a digital subscription, et cetera.
Right.
It, it seems like the, the way of a lot of these businesses is moving, particularly when they have an extremely strong brand, into businesses that are almost like tang- I don't wanna say tangential to it, but they're, they're attached to it, but it's not like direct in some ways, right?
Like we talk about like events, like yes, events are, are, you know... Yeah, they're live journalism and whatnot, but like really, like there's um... They're using the brand and they're expressing it in a different way.
And, and anyone who's done an event like will- knows that like you have to get the cocktail party right is just as important as like getting the stage stuff right. Like- Right...
there are different types of events, but, but the reality is it's the people in the room, and, and the journalism facilitates that.
But how do you end up thinking about like how, particularly, I mean, you guys are doing a lot of stuff- Yeah...
that is outside of the core journalistic product, and I think most modern media companies, that is the direction they're going. Right.
Do you just think it can be hard to figure out then what is the role of the journalistic product? I think it's, it's a blend. And I think, Brian, a lot of that depends on the talent and what...
You know, for instance, y- yes, we have our lists and, you know, I think highest paid NFL players came out last week and, you know, billionaires is coming out tomorrow, Forbes 400. It's, so it's...
The people that do that and kind of- Wait, the highest paid NFL players? Came out last week. Oh, really? Yeah. But that's like known, isn't it? Like, I mean, there's just a list with the...
They have to file their contracts. Or are you looking at their off-field earnings? Okay. I don't know. I would think off-field. But I'll get back to you on that. I mean, listen, there is...
I love the sports reporters, though. They're super fun. They're really fun to talk to. So there's, there's like the lists, right? And then you have someone who is
so ferocious about getting a story or a scoop that it's like their live and breathe. It's like those are like the true...
It's, it's, it's what makes a Forbes story great, and they have these sessions or editors every couple- Yeah...
of weeks, and I sit in on, on them 'cause I'm like, "Damn, these guys should be out selling on the street 'cause they are so competitive." [chuckles] They're like- But it's almost an uneconomic activity.
I mean, this is the unfortunate part about it. But it is. But it's why the brand is great. It's like, you know, it's, you know- Yeah...
someone said they, they're not supposed to be a billionaire and our fact checker's went over like, "No, sorry dude, you're a billionaire."
Like, so I, I think there's, you know, there, there's differences with the editors and the reporters.
Like you have the lists, you have like those people that are in there beating them like, "Ah, I gotta get this story on Elon right now 'cause it's, it's gonna, it's gonna move the market."
And then you have people who want to build communities, that build these different communities that come together and are like, "We need this guy on the u- under 30 list.
We need this woman on the creators list 'cause she just blew up over here and no one knows her name." And so I think it's that intensity and that ferocity of like, "Yeah, this is Forbes, and we need to have..."
I mean, last night there were two people that performed on, what was it? The Video Music Awards, the VMAs, that I had never heard of. I started watching it, the first 10 minutes I was like...
And I, I think I know music, and I actually sit down and watch something like that and I'm like, "I don't know what I'm talking about."
But we had two of the people that won awards last night are performing at under 30 at the end of the month, and when people were saying their name, you know, in the building, I was like, "What are you talking about?
I've never heard of this person before." So I- we do try to be... You know, for Forbes, it's about getting that scoop, it's about being ahead, and I think it just...
You have, you have to know and trust your editors that there is a time and a place for their content where it's gonna resonate.
And again, sometimes that's on stage, sometimes it's on a list, sometimes it's, you know, on the cover, getting to something that we never thought would be on the cover. But so it makes it fun, right?
It's like who wants, who wants a formula for- Yeah, that's true. So let's talk about AI for a little bit. I mean, obviously, you know, traffic is down. Is that like that's my...Yeah. The, the search? Yeah. Yeah.
It's down. [laughs] Yes, it is. Like, how much? Like... Depending on the day, Brian, and I... You know, there just does not seem to be a real warning on it, and I'm sure every person you talk to will say the same thing.
I'd say it's down about between 40, like around 30 to 40%, depending- Oof... on the day. Yeah.
So that, that impacts, I would guess that that impacts most directly your programmatic business, and then also- It's, it, it is... your commerce business. The direct digital business is up right now- Okay...
which is interesting. But then, but mostly- The one-... you're not selling, you're not selling... Excuse me. You're not selling like just, like- Correct... ads on pages usually with your sales. Mm-hmm.
You know, you're, you're doing packages, integrated media. Correct. Yeah. The only nice thing I will say on programmatic is we're able to...
'Cause, 'cause of the scarcity, we're able to charge, high, the CPMs are going up. Oh, good. So. Well- Little bit of goodness? You know, fewer M's you're gonna have. [laughs] That's the problem. [laughs] Fewer M's.
You don't want 40%- Yeah... fewer M's, Keith. No.
And so there, but, you know, what, what we have done, and we started doing it, you know, like in May and June, is looking at branded content and the way we're packaging things, that it's not necessarily CPM driven.
But the programmatic is the programmatic and, you know, you can't- Yeah, that's true... you can't. N- no one's gonna fix that in the short term right now.
And, you know, for us it's been how do we just double down on the diversification and these partnerships, like I said, with you too- Yeah... and LinkedIn and... But the licensing's also really interesting, too.
But go back to AI. But yeah- 'Cause-... but commerce. Like, so commerce, I mean, you guys have, like two halves to your commerce business, right? Mm-hmm. Yeah.
There's Vetted, which you, you do, and then there's Marketplace, which is a partnership. Correct. Correct. That's correct. Okay. I see, I see ads from Forbes, like w- way more frequently. I don't know, this is just me.
Um, like, you know, when I search on things. It's probably 'cause you're talking about us on- No, no, no. You know what I mean. Like, when you f- No, I know... when you, when I search for things- Yeah...
like, I think one of the things is SEO is, like way harder. You know, commerce to me was, was, when people would talk about the pivot to video, they were talking about a pivot to Facebook.
And when people were talking about commerce, they were talking about affiliate, but they were really talking about SEO. The, the SEO gravy train has, has sort of gone off the [laughs] the, the side of the road.
Yes, as Ozzie would say, RIP it... Listen, we're, we're not doing as bad as... You know, we're not pacing and forecasting as bad as we thought we might. So the business is still there, but I think we just have...
You know, we're looking at new and creative ways on how to look at that business. But it was never, Brian, like... You know, it was a slice of the business. It's, you know, 10%. Okay.
You know, so it's not like we're heavily- It's not existential... relying on that. It's not existential. Yeah. No. It means, uh- But it's interesting.
I do see, like- It means me getting on a plane and going to more countries that I can't pronounce. Ex- exactly, huh? [laughs] It's a good way to see the world. Yeah.
But yeah, no, I just, I just, I've just noticed, I just, I just think that, like a lot more publishers will end up needing to be ad buyers too, because they're gonna have to give up margin, but it's more predictable, and- Yes...
the brand makes it more efficient. You know? Like if you see- Correct...
that's the sort of reason I th- feel like that affiliate really worked well with these brands is because, you know, when you see them next to other random sites or Reddit, whatever, a lot of people w- will say, "Well, I, I, I will, I will trust, you know, this well-known brand way more-" Right...
"than I would random site." Right. Yeah. Yes. Also on AI, like what are your sort of stances on that? I don't know what is, is, does, does Forbes have a, a deal with b- any of the OpenAI, or certainly not Google?
We have a couple small ones. Nothing large. Brian, I did a reorg of the team in early July. Mm-hmm. And so that, and I don't know if you saw any of the news around that, Brian, but the positioning on that was to...
And I was thinking about this kind of from the moment I came into the job, was really before we were, you know, the, all the heat was on AI really, was how do we weave through the organization more efficiently, and how does transformation AI, at the start of it, how does it weave through in a way that is organic through the brand?
You know, editorial, product, advertising, you know, what- whatever, whatever that path, that journey looks like. And so we announced that in July.
It's a gentleman named Kyle Winansky, who's worked at Forbes for a long time, and he's the chief business officer, but it's, you know, chief business officer/AI strategic partnerships.
And so what he's doing there is really looking at, like I said, AI transformation as it comes from really video first, and then how that video first is articulated through our social platforms, and then how do we, you know, kind of product that and monetize that.
Okay. So is it, like are you using AI as an, as an efficiency tool right now? I assume you are, and most- We are internally, yes... most companies are trying to.
I mean, I see, I, research that, that we have done ha- have shown like a big gap between- Yeah... sort of strategy and execution.
I think that's been borne out, like, across at least the early studies of, of companies' success with- Yeah... with these AI tools.
Like there's a lot of promiseI hear a lot, "It will, it will," you know, "We're not gonna have any nurses in five years," or whatever. Like, uh, nothing will, will, will shock me at this point. [chuckles] Right.
Like, of- Right... some prediction but at the same time, it doesn't seem like it's yet been some kinda game changer internally. And I think- No...
publishers are under tons of pressure to do more with less, so there's a lot of, you know, the publishing f- publishing businesses are very com- complex really for their size- Yeah... I think.
And so I think they, they would be great test cases, yet at the same time, I don't know.
Like, when people I talk to and, and, like, our research, I don't, I don't yet see that, that those promises are, are, have, have been realized just yet.
And I would say the same for us, and we're using a multitude of them, Brian, to see, like, in, in which area of the company we can- Mm... be more efficient, particularly on the business side.
But there's so much project management work that happens on the, in, within publishers that don't think most people realize, like, [chuckles] how labor intense the project management is.
And so for that, that automation should be, we should be closer to it than we are, and hopefully we'll start to... Like, all the, all the data reporting, all the analysis, all the...
So all of that hopefully will be, you know, more of a 2026, because we are using them. And, you know, the promise is there, as you said, so I'm k- And listen, I mean, you play around with the tools.
You know when you're using something and you're like, "Oh, that was really good." Like, "That got, like, kinda 90 to 95% accurate for me"- Yeah...
if I was, like, giving a speech or, you know, put in my speech that I wrote myself and then said, "Clean this up for me." But- Yeah, like I just asked- Yeah, so- I just asked ChatGPT if, if Trump had criticized Forbes.
I didn't, I didn't... I knew he had, but it was over the Forbes 400 list, so we'll see if... Who knows? You could be called out some- [chuckles] That's, that's what, that's what I said.
[laughs] Maybe we'll have to revisit this- Maybe... this podcast, depending on what the Forbes 400 list- Yeah... uh, says tomorrow. Stay tuned till [laughs] Tom- [laughs] Yeah. There, there's... The... And you know what?
He has come around several times on us. Yeah, you'll get a nickname. We'll see, Sherry. He's c- he's come around on us several times on that. [chuckles] Yes. It's a rollercoaster with him, I believe.
But he wants to be on the list. He always wants to be on the list. Many years that he was not, he was like, "I'm not gonna do that."
Okay, so he's one of the bill- He's, he's one of the people who wanna be on the Forbes 400 list, and then there's another group of people who don't wanna be on the Forbes Fr- 400 list. That is correct. Interesting.
That is correct. Interesting. But, you know, it's in a song, so yeah. Well, Forbes is in a lot of music, I've noticed. Yeah. Like, and I think that is, like, a testament to the brand.
I mean, you, you definitely hear it in a lot of hip hop. Yes. Tell me a- about, like, do you... Are you keeping AI from, fr- like, it... What about its use within content and, like, editorial- Within content?
Not in edit yet. I think, you know what, Brian? I think, listen, if the editors wanna use some tools to do what I just said, you know what I mean? What about contributors? Are you vetting that stuff? We are vetting it.
We do have a tool that, you know... And, and we've found some bad actors in there and kicked them out. Okay. So yeah, we had the tool pretty early on that could suss it out,
but there's bad actors and, you know, people just... It's almost like... I, I don't even know. I mean, it's a shortcut- But it's a shortcut and people will use it... but it's a shortcut. I think it'll become- Yeah...
normalized, but, like, I do... I'm sure you use a lot of AI tools in... You know, it's going through big data sets and, and whatnot, a lot of these- Well, and the design team uses them a lot. Yeah.
And, you know, stuff like that that's not gonna, you know, impact a market or somebody's life or... But yeah, there's, there's efficiencies to be had, and we're, we're playing around with them.
So yes, internally we are using them, less so on the editorial side. And then externally, Kyle Vanansky, our chief business officer- Mm-hmm... he's the one that's exploring those partnerships.
And, you know, it still feels like it's, I don't know, it's, like, early, late, middle days. I don't even know what to say about it, Brian, anymore. [chuckles] Like, you- Are you, are you blo- are you blocking bots?
And I don't know if you use Cloudflare. I, I was talking with, with one of the Cloudflare- I'm not here... executives for a podcast just yesterday. How- Yeah... how are you, like, how are you guys approaching this?
Are you, are you not looking at it? I mean, different businesses have different exposure levels to, to this. Correct. Correct. I mean, we are blocking, you know, the bad actors where we can, but it's hard.
I think it's, you know, it's one of those things where the terrain is rocky, and so I think for us right now- Yeah... I, I don't know if partnering- Well, they're also customers, aren't they?
I mean- They are, and I don't know if partnering with just one is a great, is the solution. Yeah. And I, you know, aside from, like, the one or two deals we've heard about,
who's really making money off these, and are these just headline grabs, Brian? Yeah. For people to say, like, "Ooh, I, you know, struck this deal," and...
I mean, we know, we know the one or two people that are gonna make money off of it right now. Yeah. It'll, it, it will be interesting.
I mean, it seems like there needs to be, like, a grand bargain that gets struck in some ways, and, you know, I know the, the lawsuit against Anthropic, you know, it's, it's kind of ironic.
They, they could've gotten away with all of it, which basically just taking all of these, this book content- Uh-huh...
and, and sucking it up in, as training data, but they just got impatient and went to some piracy library instead of just buying all the books and scanning them or whatever. And so they just paid a, a...
You know, they just got a $1.3 billion judgment- Yeah... against them just for being impatient. So, so, you know, it was funny 'cause we were, my husband and I were talking about it this morning. Like, do we...
Like, what, what is that gonna mean for them long term? Like- Yeah, I don't know.
I mean, look, the hope is that, you know, the- they're starting to hit the limits, I guess, of, you know, these things are always assumed to expand linearly, and they're hitting- Yeah...
a little bit of the limits of what these models can do, and probably they all become-They all reach parity very quickly, and so differentiating based on the quality of the, of, of the inputs could be, at the very least, a very handy marketing, you know?
[chuckles] So it would- Yeah.
And maybe as the co-cost of compute falls, then some of the money that is going, is getting poured into compute and data centers can be used to actually reward the people who actually made that, quote-unquote, "data," which other people call journalism.
[laughs] To an extent. Well, and I, I'm sure you guys are following this too, but the, you know, we are part of the News Media Alliance. Yeah. And part of that, you know, consortium with the suit on Cohere. So- Right...
I mean, it's small, but I...
This, this is where I say, like, the relay race is important because when the publishers do band together, like, again, could turn out to be nothing, could turn out to be small, but I do think they're doing good work down there at News Media Alliance, and we'll see.
You know? I mean, it's like every day there's another ruling that comes out, and I'm like, "Are we ahead? Are we backwards? Are we..." [laughs] Yeah, exactly. Where are publishers standing, you know?
Final thing is, like, what i- what is, like, a, a part of the business we haven't discussed that, that you are excited about? I'm really excited about...
I mean, the global piece I am really excited about because the name resonates everywhere. We're in 67 countries with 43 local language editions, and Brian, that's all print mostly. Yeah. So that's crazy, right?
[laughs] Like... I was in Serbia two weeks ago. Forbes Serbia's there, for sure. [laughs] See? What were you doing over there? My wife's, [laughs] my wife is Serbian. She spoke at a Forbes- Oh...
Forbes Serbia event a f- couple years ago, actually. Oh, did she really? Yeah. God, I'd love to find out about that. So I think the global piece of it is really, really exciting.
And then I do think just with, like, partnerships and JVs, like, it's like people come to us every day and we, you know, we really have to evaluate the ones that are worth, you know, the consideration and the time.
But people are really thirsty for partnerships right now and, and we're exploring some. Some are working and, you know, some we'll have to pass on just because can't do it all. But I do like where we're headed.
I, I feel like, you know, and maybe Deidre... Was it Deidre from- Yeah... your last one? Deidre Lister. Yeah. Yeah.
It's like, you know, she kinda said that y- I think all media people are like this, that you're just, you're constantly in that state of, like, thriving in chaos. Yeah. And [laughs] Yeah.
Unfortunately, it's not good for, you know, our sleep. But I think at the end of the day, like, thriving in that chaos of, like, yeah, we went from print to digital. Like, yes, we saw, like, the economy almost collapse.
Yes, we had to, like, all reinvent our brands and ourselves and pivot. I don't know. There's something fun in that, right? That like [instrumental music] hey, let's just go for what's next 'cause
at the end of the day, this brand does give us some pretty cool access that I've been, had the pleasure and privilege of having for most of my career, so. Okay. Awesome. Shari, thank you so much for joining me today.
It was a great conversation. Yeah. Thanks, Brian. [outro music]