[upbeat music] Welcome to the Rebooting show. I am Brian Morrissey. Labor Day is behind us. The fall is here. Maybe not technically, but it really is.
This week's podcast is brought to you by our partners at Piano. I am very familiar with Piano because I was their client for several years at my previous job, where we used Piano as core to our revenue strategy.
Piano's digital revenue optimization solution helps digital services grow revenue by better understanding and influencing their consumers' behavior.
Piano unifies analytics, segmentation, and commercial personalization in one AI-driven application that enables sites and apps to efficiently maximize the value of every user visit.
It is headquartered in Amsterdam, with offices in the Americas, Europe, and Asia Pacific. Piano serves a global client base, including the BBC, Deutsche Telekom, Nikkei, AXA, and The Wall Street Journal.
For more information about Piano, visit piano.io. Thank you, Piano. And today, the Rebooting is releasing a new research report that we conducted in collaboration with Piano.
We surveyed over sixty-five revenue leaders to understand how they are approaching what we call total monetization.
Publishing businesses are more complex than ever, with advertising, subscriptions, events, branded content, and more, all competing for attention, and that creates complexity, and complexity creates silos, and silos create misaligned incentives and conflicting goals.
And so we wanted to c-conduct research to understand how revenue leaders are dealing with that complexity and the challenges that they inevitably will have. A couple of big takeaways that I wanted to highlight.
One is that only seventeen percent of publishers we surveyed use ARPU, that's average revenue per user, as a unifying metric across revenue lines, meaning most are still flying blind with channel-specific KPIs.
Seventy percent said they lack consistent data-driven processes to balance ads and subscriptions. Th-these are trade-offs that end up being mostly negotiated internally, and let's face it, imperfectly.
And finally, alignment was named as the top barrier to growth, with just, with just eleven percent of publishers saying their teams are truly unified around shared goals.
That is most likely not gonna cut it in this kind of environment. Obviously, the, the future of publishing is audience-focused, and the devil is in the details of the execution.
You can download the full report now at therebooting.com. I'll also leave a link to it in the show notes. Thanks a lot to Piano for their support.
I'm actually gonna be heading to Paris to speak at the Piano Academy early next month, so hope, hope to see some of you there. I love to go to Paris, so [chuckles] I'm really glad that they're having this event in Paris.
Today, we're kicking off a little series where we, we focus on revenue leaders at, at publishers and, and their monetization strategies and, and how they're making money across a bunch of different ways and how they unify that really around the audience.
This week's guest is Deirdre Lester, who many of you may know from when she was the CRO at Barstool Sports.
And I, I think Barstool is a great example of, you know, a media brand that, for a variety of reasons really, ended up developing a bunch of different ways to make money from a really strong audience tie.
Deirdre is now the CEO of Teton Ridge. If you don't know Teton Ridge, it is basically betting on being a lifestyle brand around Western sports.
This is not an area that I am too intimately familiar with, as I discussed with Deirdre, since I have, I have yet to be at a rodeo, but she is gonna change that. Anyway, Teton has acquired The Cowboy Channel.
They are building original programming around rodeo and also, you know, elevating their owned events like American Rodeo into, you know, their own marquee sports properties.
It's kind of a different piece, but I think there's a lot of media companies that will be like this.
It's, it's part media company, part sports IP owner, part entertainment studio, and it's really looking at modernizing a, a very traditional category that has, you know, strong cultural ties and keeping its authen-authenticity along the way.
This is something we discuss.
We talk about what it takes to grow in a time, obviously, of, of, of constant change and why she believes Western sports are having a cultural moment as a cornerstone of Americana, if you will, and also, you know, how Teton Ridge is approaching monetization in a bunch of different ways.
Hope you enjoy this conversation. If you do, please leave the show a rating and review. If you don't, maybe skip that. Always interested in hearing your feedback. You can send me a note at brian@therebooting.com.
Now, here's my conversation with Deirdre. [upbeat music] Deirdre, good to have you on the podcast. It's been a few years.
I believe the last time we saw each other and spoke, it was in a club Stérotte in the Riviera. Is that right? [chuckles] I believe that's correct. Yeah, that was.
It was pretty, pretty nice place to be, for sure, down in the south of France. That's a nice way of putting it. It was a little unique of an experience. You should have stayed around. I think you had to leave.
It got more intense.But that's a story for another podcast.
I wanna talk to you about what you're doing at Teton Ridge and, and introduce that to, to people that do not know, 'cause I think it's, I think it's fascinating, and I think you've, you have a pretty unique view.
I feel like immediately the last podcast we did was when you were the CEO of Outsider. You had been CRO at Barstool for, for critical years for that, for that business. Yeah.
And I think now, like in media, I like to get everyone's sort of theory of the case.
I feel like this industry is in such flux and is in such change that everyone needs to have sort of a theory of the case, you know, about where it's going. Because- Yeah. Yeah... it's just not static.
It's not like becoming an accountant and joining the Big Four firm. So what is your... 'Cause I mean, this is informed, I- I assume, by Barstool. But what is sort of what- Yeah...
you're seeing of where the media business is going? 'Cause I spend so much time on this podcast talking, I feel like I'm running the gift shop in like a hospice. So- Yeah... where is this business going?
Well, look, I think first and foremost, like for me, I started in this industry at the very tail end of the '90s, you know, the internet boom at, at a dot com. One of the dot com darlings, CNET- Which one was it?...
and then went on... CNET. Okay. Of course.
Went on to ESPN.com and Yahoo dot- Yahoo Sports, and, uh, rivals, lots of startups in the space, you know, and obviously Barstool Sports, which was an incredible run and an incredible story.
And so one of the things about me that's, you know, if I look at all that is I'm actually comfortable in a constant state of like change, and I think that is serving me well right now, whereas people who've been on the cable TV side for a long time maybe are really struggling with the new, the, the, the direction of the media is going.
It's not to say it's easy for anyone. I don't think it's easy for anyone.
It's not easy for me and what we're doing here at Teton Ridge or what's happening at any company, but I just think personally I have always been in a state of change, right?
Even the dot com sp- you know, space, if you just look at the, the digital space, it's like back in two- the early 2000s, we had like, you know, double-click and banner ads- True [laughs]...
and HTML ads and rich media and like, you know, we were selling- EyeBlaster... like space, spaces on a website and like EyeBlasters- Skims... were popping off the page. [laughs] And yeah, homepage takeovers.
Like, man, the day of the old days of the- Yeah. I mean, Yahoo, remember the Yahoo, like the daily like Yahoo homepage takeover? Yeah.
I mean, that was like, that was basically like the Super Bowl ad of like the internet ad- Yeah... system. And there was 365 of them, so- Yeah...
you know, you know how to, exactly how to price them, and, you know, so pricing and yield was a lot easier back then.
But, you know, I would just say like, yeah, this is, this feels like a time of, you know, incredible change, and, you know, it's top-down now.
It's happening not just on the digital side anymore, but now it's happening to the, the television business from cable on up to broadcast, and the streaming model is very different than that model, so as y- as people are migrating from one to another, the economics are very different, and in o- Mm...
you know, growth in one area does not equate to the business that you had before.
So for a long time, it, the TV people have been like really fighting hard to protect their legacy model, but they aren't, they can't do that anymore, so now they're just managing the decline of that while they build the growth over here.
But again, it's totally different economics.
And, and being in sports in particular, you know, there's this, you know, idea that like sports is the, the last bastion of a- appointment viewing at scale, and it is, but even that you're seeing major changes happening there and, you know, all of the major sports properties are bifurcating their rights in lots of different places, hedging their bets for the long term, you know, hoping that Amazon, Apple, and Netflix c- you know, wanna pay the same amounts of money- Yeah...
that the dig- the big, big- Well, that's a great example, right? Networks were- Like, I mean, sports, like sports rights, you know, it, i- are so valuable and, and...
But then you're, you're facing the, this competition from tech companies that have totally different business models. Like, I mean- That's right...
l- it's just such a difficult business no matter what side of it you're, you're on. And I'm just wondering where you, like what you see as the growth area and why.
Like what, what leads you to, like with Teton Ridge, we'll get into why, you know, the, I, I think it's like kind of a unique type of, of a media property. But like where- Mm-hmm...
what is your like sort of theory of the case about where you go that is vibrant and is growing right now? Yeah, I think- Not managing decline. Yeah, no.
We're growing, which is great, although we do have, you know, a television network that we acquired.
So on the day that we announced the acquisition last November of the Cowboy Channel, it was a- actually the exact same day that Comcast announced they were spinco-ing all of their cable networks- Yeah...
to a, a new business. So, you know, we're buying a cable network at a time where it's clear that the cable business is- Right...
going undergoing- But you have a different, you have a different model for that cable network, I assume, with Teton Ridge. Yeah, absolutely.
And, and, and really what the model is with Teton Ridge, you know, we are, you know, very focused on a category.
That cater- category is western sports and lifestyle, and I think that, you know, this is a unique category in that lifestyle and the sports piece really play together.
They're very intertwined, and so you can play in both, whereas, you know, if you're ESPN, you're really in that sports category and it's hard to like break into lifestyle.
Like here you kinda can't separate the two, so we're, we're gonna play to our, play to that, that strength. But yeah.
W- we're here, b- we're betting on the, the loyalty of the audience, the size of it, you know, and also the, the, the, the, the heritage of it.But the des-- the, the need for innovation and bringing, you know, the Western sports, the Western lifestyle into a new era from a media, from a distribution, from a production standpoint.
Like this to me was like the last frontier of sports to actually be brought into the fold in terms of, you know, we bought the Cowboy Channel, it had no You- it, it had no YouTube channel.
They were posting highlights on Instagram, but no produ- no produced social content. There was no streaming of the Cowboy Channel.
The only way to get the Cowboy Channel was through linear, and the distribution was very limited to dir- Dish, DirecTV, and only in certain markets.
So we're expanding our linear distribution by about 75% this year, which is unheard of in today's world.
But we're also gonna soon be announcing s-streaming platform partnerships, as well as we've launched fast channels on a number of platforms.
We've stood up a YouTube channel, and we're creating, you know, net original content for YouTube within the Western space, leveraging the IP, leveraging the rights we have with our partnership through the PRCA, so we're the exclusive rights holder of the PRCA.
And just to understand them, you know, PRCA is the sanctioning body of all the major rodeos in America. There are over 600 sanctioned rodeos annually in North America.
The top 20 or so of those are the ones you've heard of. Houston Rodeo, Rodeo Houston, San Antonio, Calgary Stampede, Cheyenne Frontier Days just finished up this weekend.
Those are the big guys, and then there's this long tail, and as you can imagine, the big guys drive big audience, big attendance, more dollars, you know, but also the b- because the prize money is the biggest at those rodeos and the, the sport is a points-based dollar, dollars equal points, the big athletes, the, the, the known entities all go to the big rodeos.
So we're really focused on the quantity, uh, sorry, the quality versus the quantity, and really focusing on those top ones and up-leveling them, professionalizing them, bringing them to a, a level that you would expect as a sports fan to see, whether it's graphics, replays, highlights, you know, commentary, sideline reporters, all that.
So we're really... You know, rodeo is the games the cowboys played. It's arguably the oldest sport in America- Mm-hmm... and it's really not been given the attention by the mainstream media.
And cowboy is the zeitgeist right now, right? So I've been talking a lot about, like, is this a moment or is this a movement? And I make the case for the latter because it's always been here. It's, this isn't pickleball.
It didn't just show up out of nowhere and everyone decided to start playing it 'cause it's easy. You actually... There, this is a real sport. It's real athletes. There's real stakes. It's really amazing to watch.
And it, as we expose to more people in a time where, you know, cowboy is the zeitgeist to, you know, people are really gravitating towards this space.
You know, all of the major rodeos, some of those that I just mentioned, are having record year-over-year attendance right now.
So, you know, we're capt- capitalizing on the moment that is, you know, the cowboy mo-moment, but it's also a movement, and then we're bringing this into the light. So I, I...
And then again, I say that the lifestyle, we own a magazine that's more lifestyle-oriented called Cowboys and Indians. What people wear to the rodeo matters. Like, they, they, they bring out the cowboy hats.
They bring out their boots. They bring out their best Western outfits, and they come, and it's all walks of life, and it's all different ages. It's very generational.
And so playing into that side of things and covering sort of the entertainment side with all the Western shows, TV, and film that are coming out right now, there's a lot of interest in that as well.
So I wanna get into all the different properties 'cause I think the way Teton Ridge is sort of set up as a company is, is interesting, right?
I mean, it's, it, it has a lot of different pieces, which brings, brings [chuckles] challenges, I'm sure, which we can get into.
But I just wanna dwell a little bit on, you know, whether this is a moment or a movement around sort of Western sports overall.
I mean, you definitely see it, like, in the culture, whether it's like Beyoncé or Post Malone, right? Yes. You know, there's more...
And this is me, this is my Northeast sort of bias, although I think you're doing this from, like, Connecticut, and I'm doing this from the South. [laughs] Yeah. Although I don't know if Miami counts as the South.
It's just Miami. [laughs] Yeah. Although there is a rodeo near here, which we've determined that I need to go to 'cause I've- Yes... not been to a rodeo in my life, I have to admit.
But anyway, I, it, it's, it's existed, obviously.
I, I think that there, there is evidence that, that, you know, obviously country and western music, I remember growing up, you know, I worked in restaurants, and we had a chef one time who, who was from the South, and so he insisted that we, we listen to country and western, like, during the prep.
So we finally just de- had a deal where when we were doing the prep, we would listen to, like, country, but then when we were doing the service, like, we would listen to rock 'cause people listened to rock at the time.
But what happened was everyone got into country music, even though we complained about it at first. We just weren't exposed to it. So I do think there, there is definitely something, you know, there culturally.
Now, h- what I wanna get at is, like, how you think about capturing that within a media brand, right? Like, 'cause there's a...
I keep thinking it's like publishers need to be brands, and that means you go beyond quote, like, quote-unquote just media.
'Cause if you're gonna be a lifestyle brand, it's gonna be more than just acquiring the rights to broadcast rodeos. Yes, that is right. I mean, and, and acquiring rights, you know, you're renting them, right? Yeah.
So you're building an audience around somebody else's IP and, and owned property. What's interesting about Teton Ridge is we're not one thing. We are many things.
Like, when I came here just less than two years ago nowTeton Ridge you could look at as like a holding company of a lot of different assets within the Western space, including far beyond media.
Like we own a ranch in Weatherford, Texas. We are raising high-end quarter horses that are per- per- performing in the Western performance horseman space, uh, you know, cutting, reining- Yeah... et cetera.
You've got an- So... equine drop down on your site. So I mean, that- That's right... that gives people a flavor. That's right. That said, you know, we are getting very focused now going forward as we grow the business.
We've... Since I came, we've been folded into the TWG global sports portfolio, which includes a lot of things.
But, you know, we're really focused on three kinda core pillars of our business in terms of what's- what we're, we're investing for growth.
That's media, which is the acquisition of the Cowboy Channel and some of the other brands underneath that, Cowboys and Indians, Pro Fantasy Rodeo.
You know, there's a, a number of different smaller media entities that ladder up to the Cowboy Channel. Sports, the sports portfolio is owned sports intellectual property, events that we own and operate and we run.
The biggest and, and most recognized is the American Rodeo. The American Rodeo, for anyone that is listening and doesn't know a lot about rodeo, like Brian, is the sort of- I know a little bit. Go on...
it's the crown jewel of rodeo. It's, it's essentially, it's a US Open-type format, right? Like people compete in a tournament. You could call them amateurs, but they're all sort of like next to make the cut, right?
They're the rising stars of rodeo competing to get a spot at, you know, punching their ticket to the American Rodeo, and then it's an invitational of the best in the world. So we invite the top athletes from- Mm...
the national finals rodeo every year to come compete in the American. They get an automatic e- entry. And this year we had 100% uptake on the invite- invited athletes. Only one did not accept, and he was injured.
So it's become a very prestigious rodeo for the top athletes to come compete in. It's the biggest prize money in rodeo. We gave away $2.6 million last year over the course of the tournament and the championship round.
It airs on Fox. We have a broadcast partnership with Fox, and then, you know, obviously we do a lot of shoulder programming and promotion on the Cowboy Channel.
And so the American is, is a, an owned sports intellec- IP that we're looking to scale and grow, and there are some other smaller entities underneath that that we're also in development on.
And then there's an entertainment division which is out in Los Angeles building a slate of premium TV and film all in the sort of Western and Americana genre. That's kinda... We've...
Most notably, we acquired all of the series from Lonesome Dove from the McMurtry estate, and we're in development on remaking the Lonesome Dove series. So that, that'll be coming soon. More on that later.
But those are sort of the core areas of the business.
So, uh, some of the other stuff we're doing is kinda sitting now in what we call, like, ventures, which are investments we've made in things like the ranch and the equine part of our business. Yeah.
Higher Boots, which is a cowboy boot company, we're an investor in them, and we support their growth, but they have their own management team.
You know, they're their own company, and we plug them in where it makes sense to. M- they're the cowboy boot sponsor of the American Rodeo, obviously.
We do a lot of marketing, media collaborations and promotions with them, but those are more long-term investments we've made.
So it is a lot, it's multifaceted, but I would say, like, right now, you know, sports media and entertainment have very much clearly come into the forefront of where we're taking the business going forward. Yeah.
So talk to me about, like, keeping the ventures part, like, kind of a little bit separate, 'cause one of the things I think is interesting about this area, 'cause I gotta think about, a lot about, like, the golf, another area that I don't know a lot about, and, you know, golf has, like, really exploded with independent media.
Like, I mean, golf on YouTube is, like, massive. People are building- Yes... really big businesses.
And I think the, the structure of golf is interesting because the players are independent contractors from what I understand for the most part.
Is that the s- is that similar with, with rodeo in that, like, when you're dealing with the, I don't know what else to call, I don't wanna mean, like, mainstream sports, but, like, the biggest, like, sports leagues, like, there's a lot of structures in there that make innovation very difficult.
You know, they're just, they're, they're very, they're, they're much different beasts, right?
And I think what I've been talking to people about is, like, golf being, you know, unique in that way, and that's why you're seeing a lot of innovation. I- are there similar dynamics ha- uh, with rodeo? Yeah, there is.
I mean, one s- so the PRCA, which is the sanctioning body, is a membership organization.
So in order to compete in PRCA rodeos and to, you know, rack up points to eventually potentially qualify for the, the national finals, you have to be a PRCA member.
So, you know, you get your PRCA card, you start entering PRCA rodeos. There's certain rules of, you know, how many rodeos you need to compete in to be qualified for the American, or sorry, for the NFR.
But ultimately it's a point system, and e- every dollar equals a point, and these guys are out on the road 12 months a year rodeoing to get, you know, a chance to compete at the NFR. Top 15 from every discipline.
So think disciplines are different events, right? Bull riding, barrel racing, team roping, et cetera. There are eight different rodeo disciplines, and 15 athletes from each of those will qualify for the national finals.
That happens in Las Vegas every December. It's 10 nights of rodeo in Vegas. So you wanna come experience a rodeo, come to the NFR. We ha- we, uh, do a lot there.
We're the broadcast partner, and it's quite wild to see Vegas when it's covered, covered with cowboy hats. Everybody in Vegas in December is a cowboy, unlike CES when you go back in January.
But yeah, no, I mean, it's, it's so- I think I would rather be at the rodeo [laughs] You would, trust me... than, than CES, beyond And now that I've, now that I've do- [laughs]...
done both, I can tell you the rodeo's more, a lot more fun. [laughs] Oh, that's an easy one.
[laughs] But to your question of, like-Does that mean because these individuals are truly like individuals on the rodeo circuit, does that make room for more innovation? It absolutely does.
So then why hasn't there been much? Well, there's... This is an industry that's very steeped in tradition- Yeah...
and intentionally not wanting too much change brought to the industry, and so there's been a lot of resistance to change over the years.
There's been attempts at different types of leagues coming in and trying to restructure the way the rodeo is run, and ultimately it always falls back to this way, the, the current status, which is the way it is.
The American Rodeo, what we're doing, is completely different, right? And it, and it's, it's become a, it's become, I'd, I'd say second to the NFR.
It's become the rodeo, and I'm hearing that when we interview cowboys and cowgirls at events. Like, "What's the r- rodeo you have to be at?" And it's the NFR and the American.
Those are the two most prestigious events in the sport, but the American didn't exist 15 years ago, right? It's, it's, it's about- Yeah... a little over a decade old. So it's not centralized.
It's not like, it's not like there's an NFL is I guess is my point, right? You know, there's not just like one dominant, like centralized, like league. It, there's, there's a little bit- Yeah.
No, and there's tons of like non-sanctioned rodeos happening all the time, and people just put up a jackpot and people go ride down the road and compete because they love it. It's their lifestyle, right?
And you can go win money, compete in a rodeo. You know, there's all these like...
We're, we're actually looking at doing a series around like the small community rodeos 'cause there's this whole like Friday Night Lights factor of like the community- Oh, yeah... comes together in the summer.
Let's do one. Let's... Maybe that'll be my first one. We'll do one in Hialeah, and I can see them having like a r- a rodeo out there. Yeah. I mean, that's the, that's the cool thing.
So, but, but to your point, now there is an opportunity for disruption because this next generation of athletes, they're creating social media. They're out there. Yeah.
Like they show up now with these- And they're on the helmet sign. They, you see them too, you know? They, and they show up with film crews now everywhere they go. Like we've actually had to- Okay...
like curb it a little bit and say like, "Yeah, you can't bring your film crew to the bucking chutes with you. It's dangerous."
You know, like this is [laughs] this is [laughs] there's, there's animal athletes here, and you gotta keep, you know, these people, you know, media credentials need to be over there with the media, not here in the bucking chutes with the, with the bulls and the horses.
So, but, but yeah, there is, there is an opportunity right now that I think we're, you know, we're primed and ready to capitalize on. But, you know, it is, it is not...
There's no simple formula, and that's like the whole media thing right now. It's like there's no magic bullet. You gotta do a lot of things, but you gotta like- Yeah... have, you know, a plan and go execute on it.
So with the Cowboy Channel, like we're creating, we have a, we have a series in production right now. There's a cowboy named Rocker Steiner. He's kinda the it guy in the sport right now.
He's, he's from a long-standing rodeo- Great name for a cowboy. All the cowboys have amazing names. It's like they're born and their mom is like- So are they real names-... "You're gonna be-... or are they just not?"...
you're gonna be a cowboy." Okay. [laughs] Uh, that's, that's a good question. But yes, no, they mostly are real I believe. Like there are none named Brian, right? No Brians. I haven't met a Brian yet. [laughs] But, uh,
there [laughs] but so Rocker's out on the road. You know, he's doing his thing all summer long on the rodeo.
We put him in a, m- you know, a luxury bus with a couple of his cowboy friends and we wrapped it up, and we named the series Hell on Wheels.
And, you know, we're, we sent a film crew with him, and we're getting all that footage back. And we're editing it as he's going and filming more so that we can release the series in the fall leading into the NFR.
So- Yeah... really quick turn production. You know, I, we've gotten quotes from TV production companies. Like those people are...
That's where if I were in that side of the business, I'd be really worried because the democratization of content through social media, through everybody- Yeah... being able to just get a camera and learn how to use it.
Like I'm not paying a million and a half to $2 million or, better yet, $150,000 per episode to create a six to eight episode se- series for TV. Like those days are done.
And instead, what we're doing is taking, you know, quick turn production. It'll look great, by the way. It's gonna look just as good as anything- Mm-hmm...
those production companies would've created, and we're doing it all in-house. We also, another great story is we launched a podcast last October.
These two cowboys, Ty Harris and his cousin Cole Harris, came to us and said, "We wanna launch a podcast. We wanna be the Kelsey Brothers of rodeo." [laughs] I said, "Let's go."
They named their podcast Let's Freakin' Rodeo, and they're on episode 40 right now, and they are just sur- they're about to surpass one million downloads, and that's in less than a year.
They're selling merch, and it's the Let's Freakin' Rodeo brand, and you're seeing the LFR moniker showing up in social media everywhere that they created. The announcers, when Ty comes out, he's a, he's a tie-down roper.
When he comes out in, in the arena to compete, you know, the announcer will be like, "Let's Freakin' Rodeo." Like everyone's caught on to their, their whole tagline and their whole thing.
And, you know, we're now taking the episodes of that podcast and putting them on the Cowboy Channel. Mm-hmm. And we've been doing that for about a quarter now, and we just looked at the data.
The podcast is performing as well as some of the produced shoulder programming that's been on the Cowboy Channel for years. Yeah. So we have like a daily show. Well, what's the cost difference too, right? Massive.
Like, I mean, if you look at like cost per minute- Massive difference... and I think this is, this is a story. I think there's a lot of this kind of disruption to come to, you know, broadcast really because- Yeah.
Yeah, the production... you see it with the late night TV shows.
It's like you've got, you know, y- a, a comedian running like a YouTube podcast basically at the end of the day who's having far more influence and far more reach than, you know, Colbert w- with a, a $20 million salary and a, and a whatever- Yeah...
$100 million budget. Yeah. In a studio in LA or Manhattan. Yeah. S- yeah. It- It's changing, and so, you know, there's a bunch of these independent western podcasts out there.
A lot of them are former rodeo athletes looking to kinda stay in theStay in it, 'cause it's, again, they're passionate about it, it's their lifestyle. They were gonna be there anyway, so let's have- Yeah... a podcast.
So we're kind of partnering with a lot of those, and then starting up some of our own shows. We launched a show called Rodeo Live, which is like a, basically a cop- a copy...
It's somewhere between College GameDay and the Barstool College Football show, but at a rodeo, right? So imagine- Okay... there's all these people there looking for something to do before they go to the rodeo.
We drop a, a sports desk in there with four or five personalities, we rotate in guests, and we produce it like it's, you know, c- you know, big noon kickoff or college football show.
And we're doing that this year at nine rodeos. I think next year we'll expand to 12. And that's become our flagship kinda pregame show that we do- Yeah...
right around, you know, every weekend or, and ahead of the championship rounds at the big rodeos. And we hired a, a producer for that.
Our head of content for The Cowboy Channel came from, she was at ESPN for a long time, and then she went and launched the Longhorn Network for ESPN.
So she's like, "I know how to make ESPN-quality content on a Longhorn Network budget." And I was like, "You're perfect, and you're in Texas, so that's even better."
So, you know, we're start, we're really innovating in the sport and innovating in the space, but also doing it in a new model that, you know, a, not everybody understands, 'cause not everybody's, you know, had to scrap and claw like the, the people at, you know, Barstool Sports and content creators on YouTube and all of that.
So I think that if, if you're cut from that cloth and you take that approach, you know, we'll pilot a lotta shows on YouTube first, and then if they're working and there's an audience for them, maybe they'll end up on The Cowboy Channel, versus- Yeah...
spending so much money to pilot something for TV and then it never gets made. Right. But it, it sounds like the business model itself is, is very... I mean, it's a media business model, right?
It's not like it's a, a front end to selling cowboy boots or things. Well, I mean- Like, I mean- What is a media business, though? Or is it?
Like, I mean, like, I guess what I'm trying to get at is, like, it sounds actually a little bit more like a, like a, I don't wanna say traditional media business, but, like, the business model seems more like that versus there's sometimes where it, it's really...
Like, I mean, like, you were at Barstool w- right when they were starting to get into commerce and, and that. And, like, content and commerce is, you know, a little...
Some people have been able to pull it off, a lot of people have not been able to pull it off. Yes, it's hard. But I'm interested in, like, the business model and how you see that.
Is it mostly, like, sponsorships and, like, brands- Yeah... and activating for brands? Yes. Or is it more on- So both on the, yeah, both on the media and sports side- Yeah... it is very much driven by advertising.
Well, in media, it's advertising and subscriptions.
We actually have a very successful SVOD platform with a meaningful six-figure subscriber number, you know, paying us to, to get access to The Cowboy Channel, because, again, it wasn't really well-distributed.
There's a lot more people that want it that have access to it. And so- Mm... that product does really well for us, just the, the SVOD ca- that's Cowboy Channel+.
And then, yes, it's predom- aside from that, it's advertising-supported.
And yeah, we have a lot of partners that, you know, in the endemic space, cowboy hat companies, apparel, boots, you know, m- m- uh, tractor companies.
Tractor Supply has come on as one of our big partners this year as the presenting sponsor to the Rodeo LIVE show that I just described.
So yeah, it is very much a, um, that is a traditional media model, except we're integrating these brands not just as, like, linear, but all throughout- Mm-hmm... all the digital and social as well.
And there's a healthy mix for every brand of, across all the different touchpoints with our consumers. That said, you know, not unlike Barstool, right, we, we, we had all our advertising partners.
We worked with Coors, we worked with Chevy, we worked with, you know, na- pick your partner in any category.
But we also launched our own apparel business and we launched our own, we partnered with Gallo and launched our own vodka bu- brand.
And so, you know, similar to that, like, Higher Boots is a good example of, like, if a cowboy boot company is gonna be one of our biggest customers, why not invest in a, in a startup cowboy boot company- Yeah...
and be- be the beneficiary of the audience we're building, and that they're, they're, you know, building their fan base with? So you can do both.
That said, like, no one that knows how to run a media company knows how to go produce good cowboy boots. Well, yeah. That's the thing. Right?
So- It's like there's so much leverage that can be created, but then, you know, you look down. It's like Hodinkee, right?
Like, Hodinkee was great at, like, at, at their, you know, they were deeply embedded with the watch people. They, you know a watch person when you see them because they're wearing- Yeah, yeah...
a super big, expensive watch, and they're usually in crypto and various other things. But, like- Yeah. Then they- Meanwhile, like, we all ha- this is my watch, right? Yeah, no, that's my watch too.
Like, you're so, like, you're all [laughs] I'm not a watch person.
But then, you know, th- th- they, they, they bought, like, a watch marketplace, and then it was like they basically had no business running a watch marketplace.
That's my business from the out- that's my take from the outside. Yeah. Well- And you see this, like, again and again. And I, I love, it's one of those things, it's like the old thing they say about socialism.
It's, like, great on papers. Like, does not work in, like, reality. I, I- Yeah...
kinda feel like a lot of people who wanna have, like, a vertically integrated content and commerce operation start to realize that these are, these are different businesses with different specialties. And- Yeah...
there is a middle ground. And it sounds like that's sort of the model here. Yeah. I mean, I think there's a level. Like, creating merch, hats, hoodies, T-shirts- Yeah...
stuff that's, like, cheap to produce and, you know, you can pick your premium and then sell it online and create a TikTok shop and all that stuff. We're d- we're doing that. We just hired a new head of e-commerce.
He's coming in. He's gonna do all that for us. And I think- Yeah... it'll be a h- seven-figure revenue stream in, in a very short amount of time.
We already last year did a h- you know, a half a million dollars in, in, in merch business without even really promoting it. Yeah.
So the Western space is also hot, so, like, we will partner with companies and do collaborations and things along those lines.
Our talent are already making merch, so how do we help them turn up the kn- turn up the, the faucet on that, on that and promote it better and more efficiently and create scale for them?
In terms of, like, if you, again, I look at the Barstool example, like, the most successfulProduct that we put out was a in collaboration with Gallo because they know how to make booze.
[laughs] They know how to make wine and spirits. [laughs] They know how to produce it, they know how to distribute it, and it's... and how to market it, and they saw us as this mouthpiece for that.
And so they quickly caught on to the fact that like, hey, they can be our m- our marketing engine, but like we're not gonna go try to create our own- Right...
product that then when- once it starts scaling you have all sorts of problems because you don't have the economies of scale that these companies have. So I do think that partnership model really matters and really works.
I mean, one of our largest partners is the, the biggest retailer in the Western space, Boot Barn.
So, you know, right off the bat I'm like, "How do we get whatever merch product we're creating into the Boot Barn stores," right? That's, that's where the scale comes from.
In terms of marketplaces, I mean, there was talk when I first came here of like creating a Western marketplace. I'm like, well- Sure... I don't know.
In a world where Amazon rules the world, are we really gonna try to c- create a marketplace and compete with the technology and... Like, you're not a tech company. That's the other thing about media companies.
Oftentimes they wanna be tech companies. Like, we can rent other people's tech. We do not need to build our own. Like, it's just there are certain things that, you know, we know we're good at.
We're good at content, audience, you know, all those things. We do not need to, you know, build our own technology.
Yeah, I think that's like essential because, you know, media to me is like, it's never been more valuable as a way to, to...
It's just, it's just valuable in so many different ways when, when you can like garner attention in this kinda chaotic information space, right? And, and engender loyalty, particularly within specific audiences.
And at the same time, a lot of the monetization mechanisms are more difficult.
It's, it's different in, in niches for, for sure, but it leads people to look for, well, you know, this can give us leverage in different businesses, which is true.
But at the same time, running those other businesses, it, it... They're totally different businesses. So I think this sort of partnership approach to me will be, you know, much more common than...
I'd have to check in with them. But like MeatEater, like, you know, starting their own whiskey or, or, you know- Yes. Yeah, exactly... doing outdoor- Exactly... clothing, like buying an outdoor clothing brand. Yeah.
It, it- And they're, they're a great- Sounds good to me... example of like they've built a brand, they've built the content.
They do have a, a commerce business that's a bi- I think I understand it to be a big part of their business. But then it, you know, ultimately if you wanna...
Well, I mean, spirits is actually the hardest one 'cause it's like a crazy three-tier distribution system, so like good luck trying to do that on your own.
Like, go partner with an expert or build something that they're gonna want to acquire, which is also in its own right pretty hard. There's some cool businesses out there.
There's like a spirits brand called Bully Boy, started out as vodka but it, they've branched into others. They're, they're building it to a certain point and then they're gonna have to get acquired.
There's just no way to scale it beyond fi- beyond a certain point without those partnerships. So from a, you know, Gallo, Diageo, you know, Proximo, one of the, one of the spirits brands.
The biggest spirits advertiser in the Western space is Pendleton Whiskey. Started out of Pendleton, Oregon. Like the, the actual rodeo in Oregon is called the Pendleton Round Up. Okay.
And they got acquired by Proximo, right? So now they're, they have a big m- engine behind them in terms of scaling that business, bigger marketing engine, the benefit of like the scale of that entire portfolio. Yeah.
So that if that, you know... It's an interesting one.
The other thing is like, you know, going back to media, like one thing that's really hard, and I think people have been frustrated for years, is like there's no monetization on Instagram.
There's no monetization on TikTok from an advertising perspective. So just 'cause you create lots of content, lots of great content, there's no like money coming to you from that.
You have to find a way to turn that into your own money, and that's, that's one of the greatest challenges in this industry. But people thinking that like someday they're gonna turn on publisher monetization on TikTok.
Mm. Like TikTok's not a, they're not an advertising-led business, so no, I, they, I don't think they're ever gonna do that for us. So how do we do that?
And, and you build up these massive audiences, and then they change on a dime. The, the constant changing of like, you know, YouTube's priot- pri- prioritizing podcasts and Reels.
You know, five years ago when I was at Barstool, YouTube wasn't pod- pr- prioritizing podcasts, but Spotify was, so we catered everything to- towards the Spotify, you know, flywheel.
Now, you know, we're talking about Let's Freakin' Rodeo, over 60% of their audience is on YouTube.
So y- you know, it's, it's a constant pivot and struggle to like know what these platforms are prioritizing, but building a brand, building a loyal audience, they will come to you wherever you go.
So that's, I think, you know, something that we, I recognize, and I think that the companies that do that will succeed.
But it's, it's hard when you're talking to like executives at company, big, big companies like CBS and Paramount or Fox. You know, it's like- Mm-hmm... but then look what's happening there, Brian.
Like Fox just announced, what, a week ago that they're partnering with Barstool. Like that to me was a very- I know... wa- watershed moment. And it wasn't even that big of a deal, you know?
Like, I mean, are, you remember back to the, what was it? Barstool Van Talk? What was that with ESPN? Yes. Yeah, the, the- I don't know if that was-... the ESPN show. Yeah, short-lived.
I don't think it ever debuted, but like that like, you know, died in controversy at a, a different- Yes, yes... a different point of culture probably. But now it's like- Yeah, but-... okay, it's the norm...
but you see it. It's like- But you have to-...
you know, Dave is the personality that's gonna draw young and new eyeballs to that network, and so they're gonna partner with him, just similar to how ESPN has partnered with Pat McAfee, and I think you'll see more of that.
I, you know, uh, the, the, the Major League Baseball just bought a stake in John Boy Media. That's pretty big deal for them. Wait, why is that a big deal? Gives them... Well, it gives them access to- Yeah...
you know, actual...
They were at the All-Star Game, but, you know, not looking in from the outside this year for the first time, you know, given full access to go c- you know-Create content in the environment that, you know, is they're a baseball influencer company essentially, right?
So but Major League Baseball finally s- saying like they're big enough that like if we're gonna enable them, we're gonna get a piece of it. Yeah.
Sports is a fascinating area like right now, and I think I, I'm not like new to that. I mean for a whole bunch of reasons, all the private equity money coming in too. Yeah. Yeah.
But like, I'm gonna be doing a podcast actually after this with the, the PVA one where we talk about lab golf. Yeah. L Catterton just bought a majority stake in that. They have like a unique putter.
Again, it's this golf thing that is... You know, they're an Oregon brand. They started out there and like, you know, they have like a "cult following" apparently. Again, not a golfer.
But, you know, they have to deal with the are you selling out or whatever.
Like how do you keep the credibility and that organic nature, and I think this is sort of plays that a little bit when you think about like what you're, how you're describing the rodeo, right?
Like I think a lot of times sometimes like tradition is always looked at as like bad, particularly in the sort of fast-paced media environment, right? But like that also makes it more organic, right?
Like, like you mentioned like pickleball. The reason I was always like down on pickleball leagues and whatnot is 'cause it felt so artificial.
It felt like a bunch of like, you know, brand managers and like private equity guys got together and were like, "Yeah, let's make this happen. People are playing pickleball- Yes... we're gonna make this happen."
And it just felt fake.
And I, I think from what you're describing is like you, you have that sort of organic feel with- within like something like the, the rodeos, and in some ways by being a little bit stodgy over the years, like it sort of benefited them, [laughs] you know?
Yeah. Yes.
I will say though, you know, I was in New York City meeting with a one of the big sports marketing and sports entities, right, agencies I should say, and I was telling them all the things that I'm telling you that we're doing and what Teton Ridge is and all the assets we have and specifically was there to talk about, you know, sponsorship or them helping sell sponsorships at the American Rodeo 'cause it's become a big platform now and warranting bigger deals and they're like, "This is great."
They know me from a lot of years, and they're like, "Looks like you really love what you're doing and you're really in this Western space."
It's funny though, we're getting a new pitch like every quarter from a new like startup, want to start up rodeo company.
So even in our space where there is a lot of tradition, there are a lot of, you know, people thinking that there should be more disruption, that there should be- Yeah... a rodeo team format, right? There should be this.
There should...
I will say that like this is a space that is not as easy to enter as golf or like you look at all these like s- startup basketball leagues, like, you know, there's a, there's so many I can't even name them all.
I hear about a new one every week. Kinda like the three-on-three stuff and whatnot? Yeah, and like unrivaled basketball competing with the WNBA, and then there's another one- Right...
I heard of this week up in the Bronx that I never heard of before.
There's, uh, you know, obviously the overtime guys have done a really good job of building their own, you know, y- high school A, you know, like elite basketball league for the, the up and comers.
The, the rodeo space like filling arenas with dirt and livestock and steel to contain [laughs] those livestock- [laughs]... is not for the faint of heart. You have to be willing to make a very big investment.
It ain't pixels, that's for sure. [laughs] And, and you're competing with already established, you know, the, the Houston Rodeo I think over two and a half million people attended this year.
The Calgary Stampede over a million people. You know, so to draw people away from that establishment, you're gonna have to make a very big investment.
It's not a low cost of entry, and you know, Teton Ridge, we did it with the American overtime, but we also acquired the American. It was, it was already in existence when we, when we picked it up.
It was a weekend, a single weekend, and we've expanded it now into a series, and, you know, it's growing. But, you know, yeah. Yeah. Again, it's, it, there is a lot of new age thinking coming into the sport. Yeah.
What will succeed and what will fail will be, you know, be the test of time, but there's, there's a lot of opportunities out there.
And to be fair, for, for all the Rebooting Shows Gen Z listeners, like rodeo's always been at the forefront of sports programming. ESPN got its start airing rodeos at night.
I watched rodeos on [laughs] ESPN 'cause they didn't have, they didn't have rights to, to much of any programming when they started. That's right. Back when they started. And so- Yeah...
you were watching rodeos, and so I, this is again just to establish that I do have some credibility as far as the rodeo space goes. It's minimal, but- Yeah, yeah. I mean, it's...
The, the other thing is like, you know, there's a lot of rodeos, so going back to where I started with like there's a lot of quantity. There's not a lot of quality. So we're bringing quality- Yeah...
production into a space that has lacked that, and we're being selective about where we do that, and the top rodeo committees want that. They're calling for that. They're saying like, "We don't want..."
You know, the Houston Rodeo is a big undertaking. It's a massive... They have like 35,000 volunteers annually that come and put that event on. It's not just the event in the arena.
There's a whole festival going on around for two weeks. But they don't want their rodeo to look like every other rodeo on TV. They invest in their production.
They invest in the talent and the commentators and all those things, and so they're, they're, those s- scale rodeos are looking for exactly what we're doing, and no other network's gonna do it for them, but we are.
So yeah. And I'm gonna get you to a rodeo and make you a fan so that you'll a year from now know a little bit, little bit more than you do today. Yeah. No, there's one in Homestead, right? So not far, 45 minutes from me.
Happy to go. I, I, I had always meant to go to one. There's one near the Delaware Bridge in, in New Jersey- Yes... that, uh- Yes. That's, it, it's only in the summer. It's supposed to be amazing. Yeah.
It's supposed to be really fun. Yeah. It's like a family affair, BYO, like type of like a picnicking, camping environment. You know what would be good? I, I don't wanna give you guys too, too many.
You have enough on your plate, but like Western sports bars. I was just reading this.
You know, there's a lot of like women's sports bars that have opened up.So it was basically from the need of, of going into bars and be like, "Can you switch the channel 'cause it's just on the Mets and, and nobody's watching it?"
And so now there's a lot of women's sports bars. I read about this in The Economist. That is interesting. I, I can see. I, you know, I... We...
You know, when we acquired the Cowboy Channel, there's actually a Cowboy Channel bar in the Fort Worth Stockyards, and we- I'm glad you already had this.
[laughs] Well, we, we actually left it, you know, with the previous- Oh, yeah... owners, and we said, "You guys keep the bar. We don't wanna be in the bar business." But that said, we just did a...
We're in the early stages in piloting a partnership with a company called Atmosphere TV, which you should talk to them, Brian. It's pretty interesting what they've done.
But they've built a network across North America of bars, restaurants, small businesses, you know, car dealerships, you know, anywhere where there's a captive audience and a TV on, airports. Oh, yeah, I love those.
God, I love, I love those models. Yeah. Yeah. I'm a big nail salon- And so we just-... TV and stuff. I love it. Yeah, yeah.
So we've distributed now two major rodeos, the Cowboy Channel for the Calgary Stampede and the Cheyenne Frontier Days, and we're getting the data back from them of, you know, who's watching and where.
And I would say they have a really great platform 'cause we're actually getting data back from them, like, in real time, which is very rare with our distributor partners.
We're not, certainly not getting that from the Fast Channel networks. Yeah.
And so yeah, we're definitely betting that, like, if you put a rodeo on in a, in a bar in, in a TV, people will tune in, and it just helps grow the sport. A lot of those TVs, the sound isn't on, so you're just...
But, like, the rodeo is very visually appealing even without the sound. Right. Right? So people are drawn to it. No, it's perfect.
And there's screens everywhere, so all of that, like, sort of out of home has weirdly become this really fascinating area when it was u- it used to just be like bus shelter ads and whatnot, and now it's all digital.
I remember when they started putting digital screens in, like, the New York City subways. Everyone said, "Oh, they're all gonna get broken." Guess what? They're fine. And now, like, New York City subway's increasingly...
I, like, go back and I'm wa- and then I'm like, "This is kinda like Tokyo." Like, I mean, [laughs] there's just, like, screens everywhere. Yes. Yeah, yeah. And screens need programming. I was in...
Yesterday, I was in New York, and I took the train, uh, the Amtrak up to Rhode Island, where I am now, and I went into the Moynihan train station, which is, like, the new- Yeah... station for Amtrak in Penn Station.
And I felt- Doesn't seem like it's New York City. [laughs] I felt like I was in a different country. I was like- Yeah... this is beautiful. Like, this is not Penn Station. What is this? I felt...
Yeah, I felt, like, uneasy. I'm like, "Get me back to Penn Station, the Warren of, like- [laughs]... low ceilings." Oh. Even, like, the, the food hall, I was like, "I've never heard of these stores before." Yeah. No.
This isn't- And I'm trusting... this isn't your Penn Station coffee shop. This is, this isn't Hudson News. [laughs] Okay. So yeah, the world is evolving.
But yeah, no, I think, you know, we ex- in, in the expansion of our distribution, you know, out of home, non-traditional markets is important to us.
We've actually just, you know, closed a deal with Verizon Fios to put the Cowboy Channel on, which gives us Northeast- Mm... coverage, which we've never had before, so. Final, final question on that.
W- why, why would you not be airing, like, the, the American Rodeo, the, the series on the Cowboy Channel? Why have that distribution syndicated? Yeah.
Well, when we did the deal with Fox, which is a multi-year deal- Okay... we didn't yet own the Cowboy Channel, right? Okay. Okay. So w- the goal was to put the American on a broadcast network. We spoke to all of them.
There was interest from several.
We liked Fox because obviously they have their cable nets, FS1 and FS2, so we could put our regional events on their cable nets, but then the big event, the championship round, airs on the network, which, you know, that's how you reach the masses, right?
So I still believe that, you know, even with owning the Cowboy Channel, that the American Rodeo and others deserve, you know, a broadcast partnership.
And so I'll always be looking for, you know, Fox to put some of our top tent-pole events on the big network. But yeah, so, you know, we are using now the Cowboy Channel to program.
We're airing, you know, f- you know, past years Americans on the Cowboy Channel.
We created shoulder programming, the road to the Americans, so that we can follow the athletes that are qualifying in all of our regional events and then ladder that up to Fox and help drive tune into our own event on the network.
So we'll see where that partnership goes. Mm. We're starting, we're in early t- conversations with them now about, you know, what it looks like after year three, which would be 2026, and that's to be determined. Okay.
Awesome. Deirdre, always great to catch up. Appreciate you taking the time. [outro music] Thank you. Appreciate you having me.