WEBVTT 1 00:00:00.100 --> 00:00:13.620 [upbeat music] Welcome to the Rebooting show. I'm Brian Morrissey. The summer is here. 2 00:00:13.920 --> 00:00:24.560 We're nearing the point where if you send an email to a European, you're more likely to get an out of office that says they're off camping for six weeks and to check back. True heroes in my view. 3 00:00:25.200 --> 00:00:30.620 But here at the Rebooting, we're entering the summer and using it as a time to experiment with a few different formats. 4 00:00:30.840 --> 00:00:41.220 I got a lot of good feedback from my episode about a month ago with Anonymous Banker, so I thought about how we could extend that model, and immediately I thought about the marketer side. 5 00:00:41.320 --> 00:00:48.840 I find much of the information and news that emanates about marketing is so PR-driven and cautious to be nearly useless, honestly. 6 00:00:49.400 --> 00:01:00.920 Instead, I asked a brand marketer to have a frank conversation under the cloak of anonymity about how marketing is changing and what the impact of AI will be on the marketplace. 7 00:01:00.940 --> 00:01:13.580 In particular, as to how publishers can play a meaningful role in, in marketing strategies when it seems clear that so much of them will be automated and AI-driven by massive tech platforms with near limitless amounts of compute. 8 00:01:13.970 --> 00:01:17.670 And one theme of this conversation with ABM, real life matters again. 9 00:01:18.180 --> 00:01:39.510 While much of the marketing industry chases AI automation and performance dashboards, ABM argues that brands are kinda swinging back to what he calls breakthrough opportunities, and that means moving away from just relying on the algorithmic churn of digital ads and towards things that, you know, create some kinda cultural memory. 10 00:01:39.580 --> 00:01:51.100 That's, that's live events and creator collaborations and experiences and activations. This is why so many publishers are leaning more heavily into events, and I think that's gonna continue. 11 00:01:51.200 --> 00:02:03.820 These are things that AI, I do not believe are gonna replace. Maybe we'll all end up in some kind of metaverse thing, but I don't, I don't think so, honestly. We get into why media companies tried out Google. 12 00:02:03.900 --> 00:02:05.960 Google has always been a losing strategy. 13 00:02:06.320 --> 00:02:20.010 Why Meta and Google end up, you know, treating publishers like a number on a spreadsheet, and why creators, you know, are winning more brand budgets because they're able to activate audiences, and what publishers can learn from that. 14 00:02:20.680 --> 00:02:29.760 ABM has a very grounded view in, in this bifurcation of modern marketing. You know, we both don't believe that performance marketing is going away. 15 00:02:30.090 --> 00:02:33.800 We just think that the pendulum always goes too far, and it will correct. 16 00:02:33.940 --> 00:02:52.420 And I think a lot of ways publishers are seeing that, and they're tacking more towards doing the top of the funnel activities that are still gonna be needed and I think are gonna become more valuable as, as AI makes everything, everyone rush to the bottom of the funnel and the transaction layer. 17 00:02:52.590 --> 00:03:02.720 And I think in many ways, publishers can't really compete well there. They don't have the same resources and acumen that these massive tech companies have. 18 00:03:03.200 --> 00:03:15.000 I do think that a lot of publishers that have tight connections with audiences can get them to take actions and also just show up in the real world. So here's my conversation with ABM. 19 00:03:15.560 --> 00:03:32.360 [upbeat music] This is a special experimental episode. What better time than the summer to do one of these? Mostly it came off the back of Anonymous Banker is a character. 20 00:03:32.370 --> 00:03:47.420 They are a person actually, but mostly on the People Vs. Algorithms podcast, but I had AB on here, and I was talking to ABM here, who is our anonymous brand marketer, about doing this, and ABM agreed to do it. 21 00:03:47.470 --> 00:03:58.390 'Cause I just wanna f- I wanna g- have, like, real conversations. I find sometimes, ABM, you, like, g- you people on the marketing side, like, are, like, a little too buttoned up. 22 00:03:58.460 --> 00:04:02.300 You got corporate coming down, coming down your throats. Yeah. 23 00:04:02.440 --> 00:04:13.120 I think that is my issue, and happy to be here and, you know, I know stepping into the shadow of Anonymous Banker is a tall task, so I'm just going to try my best. No, no, it's not. 24 00:04:13.180 --> 00:04:26.450 It's a, it's a, it's a bunch of characters. [laughs] I wanna, I wanna... I, I recruited... We'll see, because any, any promise in Cannes is, is a tenuous one at best, but I recruited Anonymous Ad Tech Guy. Nice. 25 00:04:26.500 --> 00:04:37.400 That one's not, that one's gonna be gendered. It's gonna be Anonymous Ad Tech Guy. [laughs] Yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, if anyone was, was wondering, easy to guess, I think, for, for ad tech at least, maybe. I don't know. 26 00:04:37.520 --> 00:04:44.540 Yeah. That is true. But let's get into sort of... We're gonna talk about, like, content and, like, where marketing is going. But the... 27 00:04:44.840 --> 00:04:56.520 You know, I wanna start with just all the AI talk and how it is, it is and will not change, quote unquote, marketing, because I feel like a lot of what... 28 00:04:56.860 --> 00:05:06.280 First of all, people conflate marketing with advertising, and then marketing became all about, like, performance marketing, which is really direct marketing. And there's... 29 00:05:06.340 --> 00:05:10.900 All these things have been, like, jumbled, at least how I sort of understood them. 30 00:05:11.600 --> 00:05:23.599 But I think the big question when it co- it, it, it comes to AI, you've got Sam Altman out there saying it's gonna take over, like, ninety-five percent of marketing. I love the, the very specific number. 31 00:05:23.920 --> 00:05:33.000 If you wanna make an- Yeah... outlandish prediction, put... make it very specific. And not ninety-eight percent. Just we'll leave you five percent. Yeah. That's so kind of them, you know? 32 00:05:33.360 --> 00:05:44.140 How, how like, first of all, how, how overheated is this stuff and but then, like, play it out, like, forward? Like, are the machines just gonna, like, take over a lot of this? Because 33 00:05:45.100 --> 00:05:52.220 I always felt like most companies, they don't wanna do advertising necessarily, or even much marketing. 34 00:05:52.300 --> 00:06:04.130 Like, they wanna buy customers at the end of the day, and I can see Meta and Google having a lot of CFOs who say, "That's a great idea." You just... We just tell... We, we're just- Yeah... 35 00:06:04.160 --> 00:06:09.816 gonna pay you for, you know, the results. That's perfect. Let the AI do the job.Yeah. 36 00:06:09.896 --> 00:06:23.976 I do think the savior in that situation is the marketing teams, because I don't think that our ambitions are to be just the number on the spreadsheet, you know, the ever-foreboding spreadsheet that you don't wanna be a part of. 37 00:06:24.356 --> 00:06:34.816 We're all part of the spreadsheet, okay? [laughs] At the end of the day, you have to find your, yourself on the spreadsheet. Even the lowly podcaster is on the spreadsheet. [laughs] Oh, yeah, definitely. 38 00:06:34.876 --> 00:06:42.616 There's some podcasters on my spreadsheets, for sure. But, you know, how do they get there? And it's not just about an equation. 39 00:06:43.036 --> 00:06:54.796 I think that's where there's a real disconnect in some of the AI talk that's out there and the reality that's happening in the brand marketing side of things. 40 00:06:55.216 --> 00:07:19.235 You know, when you are, for certain brands, looking to do buys or looking to, to make an impact and, you know, pick up what a lot of your audience is selling, I think what you're looking through, what you're looking for is breakthrough opportunity, and I don't think that AI in its current state is really offering that, or a lot of the searches. 41 00:07:19.416 --> 00:07:32.996 I mean, are you just looking for information, you know, in an AI overview, or are you looking for a perspective? Are you looking for an experience? And those are the things that I think are really hard to see going away. 42 00:07:33.376 --> 00:07:47.536 So if you talk about a live event or if you talk about a creator that you trust bringing you something or telling you about something, then, you know, that's, that's quite different than what a lot of the AI content is doing. 43 00:07:47.626 --> 00:08:01.816 And I think that's where the opportunity sits, not just for brands that are looking to continue to have a place of meaning in the ecosystem, but also for websites, also for... Or I shouldn't just say websites. 44 00:08:01.856 --> 00:08:12.136 For, uh, media companies, right? That once lived a lot probably in something like print, then migrated to the web, and now we're migrating to somewhere new. 45 00:08:12.516 --> 00:08:22.176 I think much of that is going to include physical manifestations in one way or another. Yeah. Pivot to parties. I think I had a newsletter about the pivot to parties. 46 00:08:22.426 --> 00:08:31.776 [laughs] I think the pivot, pivot to parties would be great. And, you know, you have to be careful about this stuff, and obviously that's hard, that's hard to pull off. It's, it's hard to pull off repeatedly. 47 00:08:32.396 --> 00:08:38.696 But when you have an event that breaks through, something like that, you can go and capture content there. 48 00:08:39.076 --> 00:08:49.416 You can have celebrities or people of meaning, even within certain niches or certain spaces that matter, that are there, and you record them, and you have them tell your story. 49 00:08:49.756 --> 00:09:00.036 So when I'm thinking about, and, and right now, you know, is when budget for '26 starts to be discussed, those are the kinds of things that you're looking for. 50 00:09:00.185 --> 00:09:11.946 Not just exposure and, and not just to kind of flood the zone with, with your content to make sure that consumers are seeing you, but making sure that they're seeing you in a meaningful way with something that matters to them. 51 00:09:12.336 --> 00:09:33.196 And I can tell you straight away that outside of search and some of those kind of blocking and tackling things that you need to do, my experience with my own work, with other brand marketers that I interact with, is that we're looking more for the breakthrough opportunities, and, and those are in real life. 52 00:09:33.276 --> 00:09:45.276 Those are, you know, with, with creators that have a voice that's unique and, and that matters to people. Now, going forward, is there an opportunity for AI to develop into that? I suppose so. 53 00:09:45.916 --> 00:09:56.636 I tend to think that AI- I'm not going to a party with a bunch of AIs. No. [laughs] Not the party. I'm out on that ABM. [laughs] Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. No, not the, not the party so much. 54 00:09:56.876 --> 00:10:04.656 Well, didn't we kind of try that with the metaverse? I feel like that kinda came and went, right? Yeah, and it didn't work for a reason- The avatars with-... it's, like, so-... with no legs floating around... 55 00:10:04.776 --> 00:10:17.076 obviously uncool. Like, as a 52-year-old man, I can say that that is uncool. [laughs] Yeah. Yeah. And, and there's certainly... I mean, we were talking before we, we started, but about the, the idea of return. 56 00:10:17.356 --> 00:10:26.465 Physical media becoming more of a thing. Being on your phone not being cool. Do you think that could happen? No, I think it- I mean, I still read magazines, but I'm also 52, so I don't know... 57 00:10:26.636 --> 00:10:36.276 I think in, in limited run, right? I don't think it's going to be- Yeah... under no illusion that it's gonna be a dominant form of media, but there's something special to it. 58 00:10:36.316 --> 00:10:44.886 And then the way I think about it is you take all that, and you can have digital extensions of it. You buy the vinyl and then, you know, you take a picture of it- Yeah... 59 00:10:44.896 --> 00:10:52.796 and you post it, or you encourage people to do that. So do you see, like, marketing... Like, you think about it, like, with, with your career, right? 60 00:10:52.896 --> 00:11:07.036 Like, do you see it, like, bifurcating between the sort of AI-driven, totally automated, always on, it's, it's, it's being taken... It's gonna be done by robots. A lot of, like- Yeah... 61 00:11:07.076 --> 00:11:18.336 what we think of today as, to me, like, performance marketing. Like, that's, that's the direction that the performance marketing machines are going down. That's what they're best at. They're firing up Three Mile Island. 62 00:11:18.416 --> 00:11:27.246 So I assume it's gonna happen, [laughs] like, right? But then I almost see, like, the counter to it. You talk about the return. Was it the return you said? Like, where- Yeah, return, yeah... 63 00:11:27.296 --> 00:11:35.496 maybe there's a return, and maybe I'm being a little bit optimistic here, but maybe there's a return to what I consider, quote-unquote, real marketing, right? 64 00:11:35.616 --> 00:11:44.616 Like, which, to me, the, like, the performance marketing stuff, I used to write for DM News, I'm like, "Yeah, I, I, I know this stuff. It's direct marketing." 65 00:11:45.076 --> 00:11:55.496 Like, you're just changing around some things, like, but it's direct marketing. I know. The, the people are just better dressed than the guys with the mustaches from Mineola. But, like, that, that's all it is. 66 00:11:55.516 --> 00:12:04.996 And so I just think, I feel like performance marketing almost ate brand marketing. [laughs] And I wonder if they're, we're gonna see a return to, to- Yeah... real marketing, brand marketing. 67 00:12:05.536 --> 00:12:13.476 I think bifurcation- Make brand marketing great again. [laughs] Oh, gosh, please. Even as anonymous brand marketer, I don't think I wanna, uh, get behind that. 68 00:12:13.636 --> 00:12:16.916 Yeah, so I think bifurcation is a good way to think about it. 69 00:12:16.996 --> 00:12:29.826 I think that you have yourMore direct acquisition plays where you're putting the quarter in the machine and you're hoping to get a customer that's gonna give you twenty-six cents or more, right? That's one part of it. 70 00:12:30.196 --> 00:12:39.786 Yeah. And then I think that's gonna work fine, but at some point, you need to differentiate yourself, and you need to have some kind of meaningful space within a consumer's life. 71 00:12:40.116 --> 00:12:52.426 And I think that's where brand marketing and some of the stuff that we're talking about, whether that be gatherings or tying yourself to a cool creator, is going to play a big role and, and be important. 72 00:12:52.966 --> 00:13:02.766 So those may manifest themselves in, in different ways, and who knows what people are going to, to call them, but I, I definitely think that that's probably a way to think about it. 73 00:13:02.926 --> 00:13:11.546 You know, places that are gonna just continue to, to dump money into Meta or Google, you know, that's always gonna exist, but it's just diminishing returns. 74 00:13:12.066 --> 00:13:20.276 The, the other thing is the platforms who- whoever they are, right, they are not your friend [chuckles] at the end of the day. No. 75 00:13:20.276 --> 00:13:34.886 [laughs] And I don't know that creators are, but creators, I think, will at least develop some kind of human loyalty to you or interest in what you're doing, where continued financial compensation goes a long way, right? 76 00:13:34.946 --> 00:13:43.606 Yeah. Uh- They'll get on the ca- they'll get on the phone with you too. I mean, you can s- you can, you can be spending hundreds of thousands of dollars with Meta. They're like, "No, we're no customer service." 77 00:13:43.906 --> 00:13:44.936 [chuckles] Yeah. You know- They, uh-... 78 00:13:45.006 --> 00:13:57.206 I will tell you, I've, I've had that exact experience with Meta, where we were looking to take advantage of one of their programs where, you know, you spend so much money with them, they give you a credit. That's great. 79 00:13:57.306 --> 00:14:09.496 So part of that operation is selecting an agency to work with, and I asked them for guidance on who we should work with, and they told me, "Well, we don't really do that. There's the list. Just pick one." 80 00:14:09.946 --> 00:14:20.246 You know, I was a little befuddled by that, [chuckles] honestly. But, but yeah, I think that's typical, and they're gonna keep raising those rates. Eventually, that... those credits are gonna go away. 81 00:14:20.366 --> 00:14:30.846 They're not, they're not gonna do that. You know, they're con- gonna continue to compress the, the margin, you know, to use the quarter analogy. So for media companies, right? And- Mm-hmm... 82 00:14:30.886 --> 00:14:42.926 and when they're going on, obviously they've gotten compressed, right? Like, they, they were on this traffic, like, treadmill. Like, I don't, I don't necessarily see a massive future for that business. 83 00:14:42.966 --> 00:14:49.106 You gotta keep operating the business. You gotta build the next business. I go back to, like, you look at what Brian Goldberg is doing at Bustle. 84 00:14:49.146 --> 00:15:01.286 I mean, he, he was sort of the king of, like, creating content for an SEO-driven world and then, you know, monetizing that, not always through programmatic, but, like, sometimes it's, it's, it's through programmatic pipes. 85 00:15:01.486 --> 00:15:12.706 I just... I don't see, like, that being a, a thriving business. No. And, and more to the point is, like, I don't think, like, brand marketers neces-necessarily want, like, ads on webpages. Yeah, I don't. 86 00:15:12.726 --> 00:15:14.046 [chuckles] Yeah, okay. 87 00:15:14.106 --> 00:15:27.076 I think when, when you're talking about building one business while the other exists, you have to remember that at the tops of these companies are people who are not keeping up with the media ecosystem and the way that it's developing. 88 00:15:27.106 --> 00:15:49.766 You know, they, they probably don't understand programmatic advertising in the way that people in the industries do, and they are probably more willing to just put an offer or a price cut out there to get a customer and sign off on that than they are to sign off on some newfangled marketing idea that at the end of the day is going to generate kind of more, more revenue. 89 00:15:50.426 --> 00:16:01.446 But, so I, I think all that stuff is, is gonna have a long tail. You know, one of your favorite things to say is AOL still generates five hundred million dollars in Ebitda, right? I think it's four hundred billion. Yeah. 90 00:16:01.546 --> 00:16:11.496 Okay. But- Oh. Oh gosh, we're down to four hundred. Well, either way, quite a significant- They're gonna ride... Apollo's gonna ride that all the way down. [laughs] [chuckles] God bless private equity. 91 00:16:12.286 --> 00:16:23.206 Yeah, good for them, you know. But right, there's, there's not a future in that. I think I saw... Who's the, the old Hulu head? Jason Kilar? Is that his name? Jason Kilar, yeah. Yeah. 92 00:16:23.726 --> 00:16:28.806 Yeah, he- He's a smart guy, actually. I, I've, I've always been very impressed by Jason Kilar. I have as well. 93 00:16:28.936 --> 00:16:35.466 Hulu is, has always been a, a favorite of mine to, to kind of watch through the years as it's been traded between ownership groups. 94 00:16:35.486 --> 00:16:42.686 But my, my point is, he said, you know, Warner Brothers Discovery and Netflix, I think, have the same market cap at the moment, right? 95 00:16:43.146 --> 00:16:55.266 But one is going up and one is going down, and just the, the future of, of where things are going is very clear. But I'm sorry. I, I got away from your original question there about, uh, Apollo. 96 00:16:55.406 --> 00:17:07.026 No, no, yeah, I, I think you're, you're getting right at it, which is basically, and I think this is a question that for a lot of the media side, is how do they compete in a world, you know... 97 00:17:07.346 --> 00:17:14.026 I think try, like the old thing was I, I was always saying, it's like trying to outgoogle Google was always a massive mistake. Yeah. 98 00:17:14.206 --> 00:17:22.596 I mean, it took OpenAI taking a totally, you know, I guess what the valley people would call an orthogonal approach to, to take on that kind of power. 99 00:17:23.146 --> 00:17:39.726 I think for publishers, where they're trying to, and all media companies, when they're trying to compete in a market with, you know, Meta, with Google, with Apple, with every grocery store chain that has also the shopper data. 100 00:17:40.086 --> 00:17:42.666 Oh my goodness. Yeah. Like winning on- The retail media. Right... 101 00:17:42.766 --> 00:17:55.666 our data is just as g- like to me, just seems a fool's errand a- and you're gonna have to find a different, a different field that to, and a different game that you're gonna compete on. Yes, that's right. 102 00:17:55.726 --> 00:18:10.666 So I would say, I mean, my advice to the media companies would probably be to continue using that book as you have it, and but view it as table stakes. You know, hey, you know we can do this. 103 00:18:10.886 --> 00:18:15.506 You, you have this experience of interacting with media. This is continuing to exist. 104 00:18:15.946 --> 00:18:38.494 But here are all the ways that we can action on this new world, and I keep-Coming back to the word breakthrough, here are the ways that we can break through for you or help you to resonate with a customer another thing you can do is brands again are, are staffed with a lot of folks who are not up on everything so you can translate for them, right? 105 00:18:38.694 --> 00:18:49.514 You can help them understand trends and how their brand can, can meet that another topic is a-agencies, creative agencies, right? 106 00:18:49.594 --> 00:19:02.764 Media companies are going to have to continue to fill some of that space with some creative services, whether that be some design, whether that be producing events, whether that be you know, writing social posts [chuckles] 107 00:19:03.323 --> 00:19:08.134 for brands and, and helping them promote things that they are already doing. 108 00:19:08.474 --> 00:19:16.554 I think that's gonna continue to be a place of need and, and by the way, when, when you move into some of that, yeah, that's, that's a different business and, and that's challenging. 109 00:19:16.934 --> 00:19:29.744 I think that's the reality but you are helping create efficiencies for the brand. You're giving them a place where they can say to their CFOs when they go to those meetings, "Hey, look. Yeah, I know this is... 110 00:19:29.774 --> 00:19:37.504 We're spending this amount with this media company, but you have to understand they're doing all these creative services for us. Ultimately, it's gonna be a positive thing." Yeah. 111 00:19:37.504 --> 00:19:41.834 "We're saving money in the long run, and, and we're creating a relationship." Yeah. 112 00:19:41.934 --> 00:19:52.024 My, my co-podcast host, I don't know what I, I call him, Alex Schleifer, says, "Leave it to publishers to choose the second-worst business to go into." [chuckles] Yeah. The agency was the first. 113 00:19:52.354 --> 00:20:02.434 [laughs] Well, it's certainly, certainly a hustle. But like, you know, every... In a storm, any, any, any port. But no, I think- Yeah... I think wi-without a doubt, like, publishers have to be in, in that business. 114 00:20:02.754 --> 00:20:13.514 You know, they, they spun up all the content studios and whatnot a generation ago, but the reality is the weight of the business is moving into these kind of custom executions that the business is... 115 00:20:13.574 --> 00:20:26.874 It's a different type of business. It's something I was talking to a media executive about earlier today, is just the impos- uh, near impossibility of operating the old model while building the new model. 116 00:20:27.414 --> 00:20:38.834 Like, I mean, if you have a- Yeah... page view arbitrage machine, and then you're trying to be some kinda DTC- Yeah... high-end br- Like, that's really difficult to, to pull off. 117 00:20:39.234 --> 00:20:51.404 I mean, you do, you just have totally different skillsets, you have different infrastructure, but the alternative is worse. Yeah. Yeah, the alternative is the SEO glue factory or, or even worse than that- Yeah. 118 00:20:51.404 --> 00:21:01.654 [chuckles]... just ultimate demise. Even worse than that. Yeah. But, but you have to look at what, what are your strengths, even in that old model? What are your strengths, and how can you apply them? 119 00:21:01.694 --> 00:21:08.594 You seem really into, like, IRL a-as, like, a differentiator and as something that won't go away. 120 00:21:08.694 --> 00:21:20.114 Like, when we talk about all the AI stuff, and AI's gonna be making the ads, and you're gonna be advertising to AI bots- One bot advertising to another, yeah. 121 00:21:20.254 --> 00:21:29.714 Yeah, basically, which is a very exciting future for some people. [chuckles] Yeah. Talk to me about the IRL event stuff, for lack of a better word. Why is that interesting? 122 00:21:30.374 --> 00:21:41.914 So this is where I think another favorite of mine, anecdata, which you have to be careful with your own experiences, right? But at the same time, they can definitely be instructive. 123 00:21:41.994 --> 00:21:53.034 And so think about things in your own life that have resonated or meant something to you, and a lot of that probably includes some kind of in real life experience. 124 00:21:53.174 --> 00:22:03.874 And so I just think that's a great opportunity for brands who can afford to do it or are big enough to do it or positioned correctly to, to really make an impact. 125 00:22:04.354 --> 00:22:19.013 And, you know, experiencing something in real life, not on your screen, not just a content series or something like that, you know, it, it, it re- makes everything else resonate around, and it ties you to that brand a little bit more. 126 00:22:19.054 --> 00:22:30.024 When you see it, it, it has a different meaning to you, and I think if you're able to create some of those successful experiences, then yeah, it's just a great opportunity to break through. 127 00:22:30.054 --> 00:22:38.814 And I actually think that a lot of media companies, even in this environment, still mean something to people one way or the other. So when you can do something... 128 00:22:38.994 --> 00:22:46.014 Now, I'm not talking about IRL being like, you know, The Economist bookstore in the airport. Certainly not- Mm... touching on something like that. 129 00:22:46.474 --> 00:22:53.744 But, and, and, you know, obviously way on the other end of the spectrum, you would have something like the Vanity Fair Oscar party, right? 130 00:22:54.574 --> 00:23:07.104 Where, like, that's such a premium top-tier experience for, for crazy celebrities. But what is it that... You know, can you give people access to something? Can you build around an experience that they're already having? 131 00:23:07.174 --> 00:23:15.514 If they're attending a sporting event, you know, can you activate around that and, and give them something useful to be able to enjoy that more? 132 00:23:15.554 --> 00:23:30.714 And that's what's gonna help you carry through, I think, as we continue to have, right, AI agents selling to other AI agents, and it's like, when you go outside and, like, talk to a real person and interact with humanity, that, that carries a lot of weight, I think. 133 00:23:30.874 --> 00:23:42.754 And if some brands, uh, companies and marketers are gonna go the AI way, I think that's fine, and, and that can kind of maybe fill that middle 80% or whatever. 134 00:23:42.834 --> 00:23:54.494 But that creates opportunity for, for people to break through, and yeah, I just think in real life is, is important. Now, scaling it is really hard, so that's, that's a big question, right? 135 00:23:54.774 --> 00:24:08.574 And you can't just cop-copy and paste events, right? Or activations or, or whatever. But you can definitely have an outsized impact when you're seeing someone in their actual life, and so that's, like, physically. 136 00:24:08.713 --> 00:24:13.474 [chuckles] It's even funny, right? All these qualifiers that we have to put on- Yeah, yeah... physically seeing something. 137 00:24:13.514 --> 00:24:25.998 So what, like, what's the one outside, obviously outside of, like, your, your, your work, but, like, what's one you would, like, sort of point to as, "Yeah, that's directionally where I think a lot of this is going"?It's a good question. 138 00:24:26.198 --> 00:24:35.168 You know, one, one thing that's resonating with me, and, and I just, I just saw this, so maybe it's a little bit of a recency bias, but it was, it was Goldfish, right? 139 00:24:35.168 --> 00:24:44.237 They do a lot of interesting stuff, but I saw that they set up something like a d- a drive-through car cleaning service where they'll then give you fresh Goldfish. 140 00:24:44.278 --> 00:24:53.118 So if, let's say you have little kids, right, and they're in the back, and it's kind of a, a meme of your backseat is just covered in crumbs and all- Yeah... kinds of nastiness. 141 00:24:53.178 --> 00:25:00.018 So, you know, hey, it's a big road trip weekend. We're recording this after the Fourth of July. People are traveling. 142 00:25:00.078 --> 00:25:06.698 Okay, you have this experience where you can go through, they'll clean your backseat of your car, they'll give you some snacks, and, and get you on your way. 143 00:25:07.138 --> 00:25:11.258 Now, you know, what's the return on that for that actual event? I don't know. 144 00:25:11.338 --> 00:25:20.818 But does every person that go through that, the next time they're at a gas station and they're trying to pick out or, you know, what, what they're gonna grab, maybe Goldfish sticks out more than the rest. 145 00:25:20.918 --> 00:25:32.978 I, I think some of this stuff has long-term returns that are really hard to put on the spreadsheet, but that stick in people's minds, you know? That... So, so that was one that I saw recently. 146 00:25:33.658 --> 00:25:44.958 You know, I think l- music festivals or concerts in general have, have been really resurgent after COVID, right? And there's all kinds of problems that you have when you go to a music festival. 147 00:25:44.978 --> 00:25:51.658 Like, it's sweaty, it's dirty, [chuckles] it's expensive, it's hard to find food, and your phone dies all the time, right? 148 00:25:51.718 --> 00:26:10.618 So i- if a sponsor of one of these festivals could support people through that experience and, you know, give them a, a blanket to sit on, or give them a phone charger, or something like that, you know, that's another example of something, hey, you know, it's, it's kinda goofy, but maybe it's better than the, uh, [chuckles] the water bottle that you get- Yeah... 149 00:26:10.638 --> 00:26:18.308 and throw away inevitably after it sits in your cabinet for a couple of weeks, right? They, they used to call that, like, branded utility. Branded utility. That's- Yeah... 150 00:26:18.338 --> 00:26:24.638 that's a new term for me, but- That was like, that was like a buzzword- I'm gonna-... like, I remember when I was covering advertising. You know, it's like, "Hey, you need to have a branded utility." 151 00:26:24.718 --> 00:26:35.997 It's like, you have to be useful to people, so, you know, you create these tools that, you know, that basically solve a problem but also communicate- Yeah... a brand message which, you know, makes a... 152 00:26:36.078 --> 00:26:40.058 Again, this could be the, the all part of the return. Everything, everything's sort of- Yeah... 153 00:26:40.067 --> 00:26:50.378 back in fashion at the end of the day, and I do think there's gonna be a reaction just broadly, culturally against- Mm-hmm... AI. It's inevitable. I think you see it already. 154 00:26:50.938 --> 00:26:58.318 I think, you know, calling someone AI is, like, an insult, right? And- Yeah, it's like- And-... N-NPC or whatever it is, right? Yeah, it's like NPC. 155 00:26:58.378 --> 00:27:07.128 And, like, sussing out, like, AI writing, like, it just ruined the, like, you know, they call the ChatGPT dash, they call the em dash that, like, you know, people- Ugh. 156 00:27:07.218 --> 00:27:19.658 I, I use it all the time, and I'm very- [chuckles]... upset about this development. I'm back to commas now. And so yeah, I think that inevitably, culturally, I don't doubt that AI is gonna infest every part of our lives. 157 00:27:20.038 --> 00:27:31.628 But I think sometimes y- we probably need to pump the brakes with... Sometimes we forget that, like, people have agency. They still have agency. Like, people still have agency. Yeah. Yeah, right. 158 00:27:31.678 --> 00:27:35.738 And, and like, you know, all this stuff, it's like, "Well, it's inevitable." And it's just like, no, it's not. 159 00:27:36.338 --> 00:27:47.378 Like, we are a society, and we can, like, decide a- for ourselves w- what we're going to sort of engage with and use and what we're not going to use. And so I don't know. 160 00:27:47.518 --> 00:27:59.638 I think in some ways it will normalize from a lot of the fever dreams that are emanating from Silicon Valley, and usually they're trying to sell something, of course. I have noticed that I keep getting these, like, AI 161 00:28:00.618 --> 00:28:11.908 charges, like, that Google has decided that, like, because of Gemini, that they're upping, like, the cost of Google Workspace. I'm like, "I never asked for this stuff. I don't even use it. What are you talking about? 162 00:28:11.958 --> 00:28:21.778 If it's so valuable, then sell it to me." You're just- Yeah... using it as an excuse to raise prices, and I, I know- Yeah... how much money you make, by the way. Well, something's gotta pay for Three Mile Island, Brian. 163 00:28:21.798 --> 00:28:27.558 [chuckles] So, you know, maybe that's... Yeah. Yeah, I, I have a couple thoughts from what you were saying. 164 00:28:27.758 --> 00:28:40.358 One is I think there's a really marked difference from, oh, you can't tell if this video is AI or real, and making something that why would it ever be AI? Or, [chuckles] you know, 165 00:28:41.338 --> 00:28:46.318 this is so clearly would not be, would not ever be AI. You know, so there's... 166 00:28:46.528 --> 00:28:59.138 Those two things get conflated, but there's a real difference in the ability for AI to create something hyperrealistic and someone seeking that out. Yeah. Look- Does that make sense? Yeah. Uh, yeah, totally. 167 00:28:59.258 --> 00:29:12.728 Like, when I'm, like, trying to, like, you know, grind out another newsletter, like, I'll put on, maybe at some point I'll put on some, like, AI-created, like, soft jazz optimized for, for, you know, background for writing, right? 168 00:29:12.728 --> 00:29:20.798 Right. It's not gonna replace going to see Oasis. Like, it's just not- No... happening. No. Right. [chuckles] Precisely. Precisely. 169 00:29:20.918 --> 00:29:30.998 And the other thing is, with some of that, kind of a similar page, think about the, the panic that we've had around deepfakes here and there. And- Yeah, I know... 170 00:29:31.058 --> 00:29:37.818 has there been one instance- They sort of, they fade away, and then they, like, come out, and then we, we see them, and they're like, "Ha ha, this is kind of funny. It really looks like Trump." Yeah, they're jokes. 171 00:29:37.898 --> 00:29:46.878 They're, they're Trump, you know, saying something that he obviously didn't say, sitting at the Oval Office and doing whatever, right? Well, although you c- it g- maybe gets tricky with him. 172 00:29:47.138 --> 00:29:53.598 But most, most, you know, people see those videos, and they know, you know, it's a chuckle. It's, it's not something real. 173 00:29:53.978 --> 00:30:06.878 And then the, the last thing is I, I just have a lot of skepticism around some of the AI chatter because who is telling you about it? It's all the people that work in it- Usually people are selling something- Yes... 174 00:30:06.888 --> 00:30:09.448 I find. So, so I'm, I'm with you. 175 00:30:09.678 --> 00:30:24.618 I totally see, and in many ways, artificial intelligence or machine learning or whatever you wanna call it has already integrated itself into so much of our lives, and that's fine, but a lot of this is, is a bridge too far. 176 00:30:24.938 --> 00:30:32.354 You know, hey, there's gonna be no entry-level positions anymore.Okay. Well, what are you gonna call the position for someone who starts working? 177 00:30:32.774 --> 00:30:37.674 [laughs] Like you know, but that seems like it's entry level, it's just a little bit different. 178 00:30:37.774 --> 00:31:03.054 So yeah, these, these kinds of things, people are still gonna make decisions based on what they wanna do, what they find interesting and plenty of people are going to make decisions to interact primarily with digital world and AI and whatever, but most people are not going to do that because it's just not cool and it's not interesting, and that's not what we as people seek, you know? 179 00:31:03.614 --> 00:31:11.534 And to bring it back to kind of the selling of, of things, [laughs] right? As a brand marketer, you wanna be next to what people enjoy. 180 00:31:11.874 --> 00:31:23.174 You wanna be next to what people find interesting or captivating or have an affinity for, and you wanna create a connection with that, with your brand and your product, and with whatever that might be. 181 00:31:23.654 --> 00:31:32.744 And then that's really how you make [laughs] a sale or how you increase your, you know, market share, whatever it is. So you know, I had to bring it back to business- Yeah, yeah. No, but do you, do you find-... 182 00:31:32.744 --> 00:31:40.394 after that beautiful conversation about humanity. That's fair. Do, do you, are, are you seeing shifts towards like more 183 00:31:41.334 --> 00:31:51.014 individuals or human, like I don't know how to put it, creators, whatever you wanna call it, like versus sort of institutional kinda like more like faceless brands? 184 00:31:51.414 --> 00:32:06.694 Because it does seem, at least to me, like there's absolutely leverage around a, a person versus like a faceless brand. Like I, I just see it. And there's, there's downsides to that of course. 185 00:32:06.714 --> 00:32:15.794 It's not, it's not very scalable. [laughs] But- Right. Well, and they could get in trouble or, you know, whatever. There's all kinds of stuff there. Yeah, that's why I feel like I'm safe. 186 00:32:15.854 --> 00:32:26.244 I'm out of, I'm out of the age range where I could get in trouble, I think. [laughs] But don't underestimate yourself. That's one risk factor that's taken, taken off the board. No, but do you... Are, are you seeing... 187 00:32:26.264 --> 00:32:47.974 'Cause I mean, like Group M, now I guess it's WPP, WPP Media now, you know, they came out with some ad spending report and it was, well, for the first time, y- the, the amount of money that we're spending on like quote unquote user generated content platforms, which like include YouTube is one, it exceeds that of like quote unquote professional media platforms. 188 00:32:48.054 --> 00:32:56.794 Mm-hmm. Yeah, I did see that. Not totally di- direct. I mean, it's directional, but I'm wondering like, do you see that like with performance that like... 189 00:32:57.564 --> 00:33:12.054 'Cause I don't know, my, my, my instinct is that the individual, the creator, et cetera, has in many cases so many more advantages over like an institutional media brand, which has different kinds of advantages. 190 00:33:12.134 --> 00:33:21.174 I mean, the number one th- thing that I will ask any institutional brand is often around who is gonna be there on a creator side. 191 00:33:21.454 --> 00:33:31.594 What relationships do you have with creators, or celebrities, or influencers, or any kind of endorsers that you can leverage to make this pop, right? 192 00:33:31.924 --> 00:33:39.854 And that could be someone that I'm not familiar with, you know, that could be a really dynamic craft fair or something like that, right? 193 00:33:39.894 --> 00:33:43.934 And maybe I don't know about that, but they can show me that there's some value in that. 194 00:33:43.943 --> 00:33:54.693 And, you know, oh, this, the person that is the number one clay pot maker on the East Coast is gonna be there, and people are really gonna go wild for that. I'd be like, "Okay," you know, if you, if you can prove it out. 195 00:33:54.894 --> 00:34:15.994 But I, I think more and more in general, yeah, like institutional media, it means something, the name carries weight, but I think it's more about the leverage that you're able to have or the relationships or the language or the translation that you can do for the brand that you're working with. 196 00:34:16.114 --> 00:34:22.984 Yeah. Yeah, it's like- That's why I call them like cultural general contractors in some ways, in that like what- I d- I think that's right. I think that's right. 197 00:34:23.034 --> 00:34:33.154 What they sort of bring to the table is they have credibility, particularly with, with brands and like with people not like yourself probably, but within your company- Mm-hmm... 198 00:34:33.214 --> 00:34:42.014 who don't like keep like, you know, their finger on the pulse- [laughs]... of all this stuff. I'm told that there's some people in these organizations- I-... that are not. Thank you. I appreciate the cosign. Yeah. 199 00:34:42.294 --> 00:34:52.214 [laughs] Not you. Yeah, yeah, yeah. All, all the other ones. [laughs] No, I mean, it, it is funny 'cause the, the sell-in that you have to do, a lot of times it's my first two, "Okay, do you know this? Do you know that?" 200 00:34:52.514 --> 00:35:01.994 If, if, if the CFO does not know the first two cultural reference points that I'm trying to make for- Yeah... whatever publication I'm bringing in front of them, then I'm in, in real trouble. Right. Yeah. 201 00:35:02.214 --> 00:35:09.014 [laughs] Yeah, but I- I'm gonna need m- one of my managers to, to step in. But I think that that, that has like tremendous like value. But what I see- Oh, yeah... 202 00:35:09.114 --> 00:35:29.314 is that, that these, these brands have to rely on individual brands to really have the juice to, to scale this because the, the influencers, the creators, whoever, whatever you wanna call it, depends on, on, on the activation- Yeah... 203 00:35:29.334 --> 00:35:43.574 they're the ones that have almost greater reach than the institutional brand, and many of these programs are being measured on like PR like metrics. They're not, it's not like media in some ways. Do you know what I mean? 204 00:35:44.714 --> 00:35:57.774 I do. Yeah. And I'll be honest, I mean, some of the real old school stuff, the metrics are extremely unclear to me. You know, you ran a segment on, let's just call it the local news. I'm trying to be inexact here. 205 00:35:57.934 --> 00:36:05.354 Yeah, okay. [laughs] Let's say you, you ran a segment on, on television. You know, how are you possibly comparing that to... 206 00:36:05.674 --> 00:36:14.654 And then we had an influencer show up at Coachella and, you know, [laughs] they generated this, this many impressions, but those numbers aren't the same. Yeah. 207 00:36:14.694 --> 00:36:26.294 So now what, what you're stuck doing is looking at your year over year and your month over month traffic and acquisition and trying to isolate variables. And yeah, it can get tricky. 208 00:36:26.914 --> 00:36:39.554 I mean, you know, if you're good at torturing data, I think you're gonna continue to win. [laughs] That is- The data will always confess... I will say from, from experience, that's a great use of AI. 209 00:36:39.874 --> 00:36:47.622 Hey, I need you to-Make this data say this. Made you- Can you do it for me?... waterboard some data. Yeah, that, that is a- Bring me back, bring me back the results. 210 00:36:47.862 --> 00:37:00.222 Chat, ChatGPT is a, a great friend when it comes to- Yeah... asking it to, to make data say something. So last thing I wanna get at is this idea of brands owning media, right? 211 00:37:00.302 --> 00:37:11.122 Like, I think one of the things that came out of CAM was a, was an interesting idea that like yeah, down the road, that like Amazon could end up buying Dotdash Meredith, one of the largest publishers in the world. Mm. 212 00:37:11.162 --> 00:37:23.382 It's like, hmm, maybe. Yeah. It's possible. And, uh, but there's, you know, there's, there's small cases like here and there where it happens. It's never become like a very common thing. 213 00:37:23.542 --> 00:37:29.182 I think it's like starting to happen with like not just buying, but like organically building. 214 00:37:29.222 --> 00:37:41.422 Like, and, and these are different types, and I see it coming out of like in the tech industry in particular, you know, they are, they understand the te- the, the value of attention. 215 00:37:41.482 --> 00:37:48.702 Now they're operating in this weird like oftentimes this memetic attention space that's like X and all these other things. 216 00:37:49.202 --> 00:37:56.822 But they, they see the value of that, and so they're building, they're building media operations at the heart of, you know, these companies. 217 00:37:56.842 --> 00:38:05.742 And I just see, look, we never had, we never had free snacks in the office until, until these Silicon Valley people decided that we were supposed to have snacks. 218 00:38:05.822 --> 00:38:15.982 So I te- I, I look at what they're doing [laughs] 'cause it usually comes, usually comes- Yes... east. [laughs] Yeah, yeah. And we do thank them for the snacks. Yeah. For sure. Thanks for the snacks. 219 00:38:16.322 --> 00:38:24.252 Not so much for wiping away like my and my colleagues' livelihoods, but cool. Yeah. They also took the, the private cars and whatnot away. Yeah. So- That sucks... 220 00:38:24.262 --> 00:38:36.662 you get snacks, but you get no, no black car to the office. You can take an Uber X, though- Yeah, true... and you could share it if you want. Yeah. So, so I think brands buying media is an interesting way forward. 221 00:38:36.882 --> 00:38:51.862 I think that its application is probably limited in scope. It's not for everyone, but it can be very useful. One of the ways it can be useful is within a big company especially, a brand has a lot of fiefdoms. 222 00:38:52.082 --> 00:39:08.201 So you have your, you know, your product owners, you have your, usually an internal agency or brand team that manages all the other agencies you're working with, and you usually have a bunch of other groups that specialize in one thing or another, right? 223 00:39:08.582 --> 00:39:13.522 Whether that be they, they put on events, or they buy your media, or whatever it is. 224 00:39:13.562 --> 00:39:21.882 And every single one of those groups wants to own content when it's being put out, or they want some say in it, or they want something to do. 225 00:39:21.942 --> 00:39:34.282 And so if the brand is producing that work, then you have to go through all of those checkpoints. But hey, let's say you bought a media company. Let's say Amazon bought Dotdash Meredith. 226 00:39:34.522 --> 00:39:42.522 You know, they could keep all those people technically separate and be able to direct them to create content more efficiently. 227 00:39:42.532 --> 00:39:55.942 You know, the other thing is content companies produce a lot of work, and brands often struggle with keeping up with things or turnaround times and getting the necessary approvals. 228 00:39:55.951 --> 00:40:05.102 So all those muscles are, are built in for media companies, so that's, that's definitely a really advantageous way to utilize a strategy like that. 229 00:40:05.162 --> 00:40:18.802 The other thing is, you know, if you're going to be advertising with a company at some point, if you're pouring a lot of money into it or you, you're developing a relationship over time, you may think, "Okay, I could spend one lump sum here, [laughs] 230 00:40:19.212 --> 00:40:28.122 take this over, and then just kinda run it as, as my own thing." And they're, they're gonna generate some revenue on their own. Of course, there's gonna be a cost to operating it. 231 00:40:28.162 --> 00:40:45.602 But you essentially move that cost from your marketing spend and, and buying ads or media w- within that website over to an operational spend where you have a chance to make money, you have editorial control, and you hopefully have a, a more efficient content delivery system going on there. 232 00:40:45.642 --> 00:40:50.262 So there's definitely advantages to it if you can do it right. You know, it's, it's tricky. 233 00:40:50.482 --> 00:41:02.981 I know in some instances where brands have bought media companies and integrated them as employees and all of that, they've even done things like kept them on different emails. 234 00:41:03.022 --> 00:41:15.222 You know, so instead of @brand.com, they're @mediacompany.com. Yeah. Right? And, you know, that's one of the ways of kind of a plausible deniability. "Hey, they're, they're over there doing their own thing. It's not us." 235 00:41:15.502 --> 00:41:22.832 Meanwhile, you're, you know, editorializing their, their calendar for the next, uh, two months or whatever it is. So- And I think there's- Yeah, I do, I do-... 236 00:41:22.862 --> 00:41:36.402 so my thing is like, I think there's gonna be like in between states, right? Like where- Mm-hmm... you kinda have- Yeah... I, and I don't mean to slander the T- the, the TBNP- PN people, right? But like- Oh... 237 00:41:36.482 --> 00:41:47.871 they are, they're basically a creation of like Founders Fund that just happened to have all their like advertisers from Founders Fund, and then it's like, oh, the whole ecosystem. 238 00:41:48.342 --> 00:41:57.682 And they're ba- like, and I'm like, that's kind of a good model. Like, I'm not like, you know, casting aspersions on it. I mean, it's a little bit, you know, cozy. 239 00:41:58.182 --> 00:42:15.662 But like, I think that we're gonna see more models like that where the, the media outlet is like notionally independent but maybe has a couple of these like fractional relationships that are deeply embedded and... 240 00:42:15.882 --> 00:42:25.792 Again, it's not every category. It's not gonna be The New York Times or something like this. It's gonna be news. Yeah. And they're not journalists, right? And, and even if they were, there's no law that they- No... 241 00:42:25.822 --> 00:42:36.222 have to be objective about these things. And, and I think- It's an unaccredited profession, trust me. [laughs] I think with TBPN, you know, they finally got a hit here. 242 00:42:36.352 --> 00:42:46.602 'Cause there's been these fits and starts of the v- various VC firms starting, quote unquote, media companies and not really doing so great, right? Yeah. Or trying to control the narrative in that way. 243 00:42:47.062 --> 00:42:59.510 But-For TBPN is, is pretty captivating. It's, it's a language, a visual language that we understand. And then they also, yeah, they have that network of interesting founders and interesting takes. 244 00:42:59.930 --> 00:43:11.060 And then they also are being really smart with some of their, like, cultural commentary. You know, we've, we've talked about we're-- this is a podcast, so we have to talk about FeedMe, I think- Oh, yeah... 245 00:43:11.070 --> 00:43:17.810 before the end here. And yeah, Emily is on- That's Emily Sundberg's Substack of the moment. Mm-hmm. Yeah, yeah. And she's on TBPN. 246 00:43:18.220 --> 00:43:28.730 Not sure if the Odd Lots-TBPN crossover has happened yet, but that one I can guarantee you is gonna- Yeah... gonna happen sooner. I've seen, I've seen, I've seen Joe Wiesen- Wiesenathal. I always get- Yeah... 247 00:43:28.750 --> 00:43:38.590 confused to Wiesenathal, Weisenthal on, on- Well, I wasn't gonna try to pronounce it. I, I haven't heard it, so I [laughs] no, just kidding. Okay. Yeah, yeah, all that stuff is kinda working together, right? 248 00:43:38.680 --> 00:43:50.350 And so when you can create one of those influential and, and kind of like increasingly influential ecosystems that feeds off itself, yeah, you're gonna, you're gonna see some success there. 249 00:43:50.410 --> 00:43:58.880 You're gonna control the narrative. But it, it's, it's, it's less... You know what I mean? Like, it's not, it's like, it's kind of, I don't wanna say it's a cutout. Yeah, it's, it's, it's squishy. 250 00:43:58.930 --> 00:44:06.860 It's, it's in the middle. Right. Yeah. I think, and, and I think that's where- It's not the same as, like, Andreessen's, like, future when they were like, "We're gonna create the publication. It's gonna be like Wired." 251 00:44:06.910 --> 00:44:12.410 It's like, no, that's not the way you do it. The way you do it- Well, nobody wants that... is you have, like, a front organization. 252 00:44:12.490 --> 00:44:20.370 Again, I don't mean this as a dispersion, although it, the more I talk, the more it sounds like one. [laughs] It's, it's not, it's not insulting or... Right. 253 00:44:20.550 --> 00:44:28.850 It's, it's, it's not a look down on them because it's a successful thing, but let's just call it what it is, right? Right. I, I think it's, it's more that. 254 00:44:29.010 --> 00:44:39.700 Which is fine, and, and I think, you know, the consumer, I think they're fine with that. I think they understand that these days. You know, anyone at least millennial and down. I don't know, what do you think? 255 00:44:39.810 --> 00:44:45.820 You're the, you're the Gen X representative. I, I am. [laughs] That's right. I am. As the Gen X representative, I don't think it matters. Yeah. 256 00:44:45.850 --> 00:45:11.310 I think it's like, you know, I always go back to it being, like, an information space, and it has all kinds of different entities, and I think one of the really difficult things for institutional media is to, is to wrap their, their, their brains around the fact that they're just one small and, and shrinking part of this larger information space that- Yeah... 257 00:45:11.370 --> 00:45:25.070 you're gonna have companies that own media. You're gonna have these quasi-independent, but they're kinda not. Like, and that's fine. You're gonna have, like, all kinds of different... 258 00:45:25.090 --> 00:45:36.110 You're gonna have individuals, you're gonna have creators and influencers, and you're gonna have just people shit posting hacks- Mm-hmm... that have influence. I mean, Catturd is, is, has some influence in some circles. 259 00:45:36.150 --> 00:45:45.520 Like, that's the welcome to the reality. I don't know. Yeah. I wonder if he's interested in making brand marketing great again. We don't know if it's a he. We don't know. We don't know if Catturd is a he. Oh. 260 00:45:45.530 --> 00:45:53.140 That, that- That's the thing. Oh, are they officially gender? I think they c- they showed up at some event. Oh, really? I think so. Well, you know, in, in my- Sometime ago... 261 00:45:53.190 --> 00:45:56.290 in my little space- Maybe it's a false flag though, Brian. Yeah, that's true. It could be a false flag. 262 00:45:56.330 --> 00:46:06.590 [laughs] In my little space, there's, there's someone, Ad Tech God, who developed, like, and this is a great example. I've, I've spoken, I think it's just through email, with ATG. 263 00:46:07.170 --> 00:46:18.430 But, like, it's an anonymous meme account, right? That, like, exists seemingly mostly on, like, LinkedIn, right? But is, like, influential. 264 00:46:18.530 --> 00:46:30.439 Like, and, like, he/they put, put on like, you know, these activations and parties and, like, he/they do business with, you know, people who I do business... Like, they're, like, they're in the exact same space. Yeah. 265 00:46:30.450 --> 00:46:38.740 And I'm like, "Yes, I compete absolutely in some way, shape, we to- do totally different things, but with an anonymous, like, meme account." Like, you know? Yeah. 266 00:46:38.740 --> 00:46:49.170 And they, th- now ATG has, like, a podcast and do- does, you know, a newsletter and all these other things. But, like, that's the root of it. A very different sort of background, but that's, to me, that's just reality. 267 00:46:49.390 --> 00:46:59.030 Yeah. Well, I think it's funny, you know, whenever I see in, in a Sarah Fisher newsletter, she'll say something like, "You know, Sarah is a contributor to CNN." And I'm like, "Well, I should hope so." 268 00:46:59.610 --> 00:47:08.809 I mean, [laughs] what are they doing over there if you're not? You know, it's just things like... And, and who cares? Like, of course you're gonna also report on that business. For sure. Yeah. I don't know. Awesome. 269 00:47:08.950 --> 00:47:18.450 Well, let's leave it there, ABM. This was a, this was a fun little summer experiment. I hope to, I hope to make it, like, a regular thing if you're up for it. Yeah, thanks for having me. Great, great to be here. 270 00:47:18.530 --> 00:47:32.830 Appreciate it. And yeah, I'll come back anytime, and yeah, happy to be here. Awesome. Cool. [outro music]