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This week, I am following one of my, I don't know, one of my big sort of macro trends that I've been following for a few years, and, and that's this go direct movement.
You know, I think it like sprung up a lot during the pandemic and, you know, a lot of it was a little bit of a zero interest rate phenomenon.
I think when, when Coinbase was talking about opening up a movie studio, I s- I sort of, you know... I, I looked for the exit sign on that.
But I do think this is one of the biggest shifts happening right now in the information space, if you will, because, you know, the costs of production have come down so much, and there is the opportunity for companies, and it's being led in tech, and that is usually how things go, to bypass traditional media gatekeepers and build their own audiences directly.
I mean, media is mispriced. It is not valued right now in the market as high as the impact that it has, just because the monetization systems have not caught up with the influence, at least in my view.
So I wanted to talk to a company that's been at the forefront of that. And so gonna be talking with Kyle Denhoff of HubSpot, because HubSpot was, you know, an early mover in this trend.
I mean, long before Andreessen Horowitz was building a quasi podcast empire and, and it recently bought Turpentine Media, a podcast network, just a couple weeks ago, you know, HubSpot was pioneering the idea of companies acting like media companies.
It, it coined the term inbound marketing to describe a new way of approaching customer acquisition.
And not by chasing attention and, and necessarily just relying solely on ads, but, you know, earning it really by producing useful content.
And that meant a lot of SEO-optimized blog posts, particularly as people sort of mimic this playbook. But HubSpot didn't, you know, end there. It acquired, you know, The Hustle in twenty-twenty-one.
And, you know, The Hustle was... I guess it was like in the Bloods and Crips of the newsletter world, it was the Morning Brew and The Hustle. I don't know which was the Blood, which was the Crips.
But The Hustle exited to HubSpot. It was a really good fit. I think it was surprising at the time.
But, you know, they, they not only got The Hustle and its massive email audience, particularly of like entrepreneurs, you know, who are s- who are starting out businesses, so a really good, really good target for, for HubSpot, but also the My First Million podcast, which has grown to a monster.
It's like one of the mo- most popular business podcasts. I, I like it. It's, it's hosted by Shaun Puri and Sam Parr, and they're great. They're great personalities, and they're, they're super smart to boot.
And they've started to grow their own like creator network. So Kyle is, is technically, he's the head of audience development for HubSpot Media, and he does, he does a lot more beyond that title.
His team focuses on content strategy, audience growth, and creator partnerships, including sponsorship and licensing deals with independent podcasters, newsletter writers, and YouTubers.
They're very big into YouTube, and this is something that we go into.
And I think this kind of role that Kyle has will probably be fairly standard at just about all companies of any size because I don't think this kind of trend is ending. And Kyle and I talk about it.
We get into like how you judge ROI on these kind of media investments, right? Because if you don't show up with the receipts, you're gonna be the first thing that is cut.
And I think it's noteworthy because this is a big investment for a company like HubSpot, and from everything that I see and from what Kyle says, it is, it is working well, so I expect there to be many imitators.
So here is my conversation with Kyle. [upbeat music] All right, Kyle, thank you so much for joining me on Good Friday afternoon. Hey, Brian. Thanks for having me.
[chuckles] We're gonna do a Stations of the Cross after this. We're like the last people like working for like- Right. Everybody's logged off at this point, right? One of our few holiday weekends. This is hardcore.
Is this on our side or your side deciding to do it at this time?
[chuckles] No, I wanted to have you on because like, I think of like HubSpot as, you know, one of the forerunners of something that we're seeing everywhere. Like I call it the information space. Yeah.
And everyone is in the media business. It's been completely decentralized and democratized, and some people sort of lament that, and usually for k- competitive reasons. I came to understand that. Sure.
And then with AI, obviously it's gonna become even more chaotic, but I think that's fun. But I think you guys were really early on, and I- Mm-hmm...
you know, it was likeI think HubSpot coined the term inbound marketing, right? For sure. And I always liked how- Yeah, yeah, they published the book. Yeah. Okay. Well, I, I, I wasn't sure if anyone else had, had that.
But, like, you know, I always thought, well, yeah, I mean, you're gonna do a lot of, you know, SEO optimized, like, you know, blogs and, and newsletters, and I understand that.
But you've really gone into having your own media assets, right? Mm-hmm. And I see this...
You know, pendulums always swing in this world, and like, you know, sometimes, like over the years, you know, brands would be like, you know, Pepsi would be like, "We're gonna be making our own content."
And I'm like the only person in the world who remembers BudTV. [laughs] But I will keep it alive, you know, 'cause back in like the early 2000s... Do you know about BudTV? I don't. I don't. Yeah.
Anheuser-Busch plowed all of this money- Okay... into having their own... They were gonna... It was framed like they were gonna compete with YouTube. Not be on YouTube, [laughs] compete with it. Okay.
This is when-- This is obviously a long time ago. Really going after it. Yeah. Yeah. [laughs] And they poured so much money. Joe Buck had a show on there. Wow. You know, high production values.
Th-they, they were using Smuggler, which I don't know if it's still around. Okay. Some expensive productions. You know, s- they were, they were doing it basically the same as they would do with like a TV commercial.
That's only 30 seconds. When you start to do that over, like, hours... So basically, it became like a money pit, and then a lot of brands were like, "Oh yeah, we don't wanna have anything to do with that."
But, uh- Sure... nowadays, it's to me, it's like a no-brainer. And like, you guys now have-- you own your own, like, media assets. You bought The Hustle a few years back, I think it was 2021.
You know, you have a creator program, and I wanna talk all about that, so. Yeah. I love it. First thing was like, I was, like, struck by, you know, your LinkedIn.
You know, you've got a parenthetical next to senior director of marketing is content-led growth. Now I knew product-led growth, but introduce me to this world of content-led growth. Yeah. So similar.
It's a, you know, a term I think in the B2B tech space. You know, on the media side, in our media business, I run audience development.
But I think for tech companies, it's a matter of like, are you developing content to attract and acquire an audience, and eventually turn that audience into demand and revenue for the software business.
So it's a term I've seen out there. I know Lenny's done a couple posts on it. So more the positioning for the, the tech company that, that I work for.
But at the end of the day, all of my work's focused on audience development for the media business. Okay. So give us an idea of the contours of the media business. Sure.
So HubSpot Media, as you mentioned, we acquired The Hustle back in 2021, and we've kinda gone on this journey over the last couple years to bring The Hustle into HubSpot.
And at the time, The Hustle actually remained independent for probably six or nine months before we ended up hiring a head of HubSpot Media.
And at that time, we brought together the editorial side from The Hustle with some of the performance marketing growth folks from HubSpot, and built up the HubSpot media business.
And so at this point, HubSpot Media is a little over 50, 50 folks, writers, editors, producers, monetization, growth marketers. And we've built out this portfolio.
So it started with The Hustle and My First Million, which folks are obviously familiar with. But over the last couple years, we've launched media brands for marketers, for sellers.
We've moved into the AI space and did an AI email newsletter acquisition last year. So we're building up a portfolio that's continuing to bring in new audiences for the business.
And I think what's great about HubSpot Media is we are kinda adjacent to the marketing and sales organization. We have that editorial independence to build up these brands. Mm.
And so we're able to attract talent and then bring in audiences just through value, like news and education and stories.
And eventually, you know, as, as you've talked about in the past, turn that audience into leads for the business and figuring out that balance. Yeah. I wanna get into the mechanism of that. Yeah.
We can, we can g- go deep into B2B marketing. We can talk about- All day... MQLs, SQLs, like the whole [laughs] whole of it. I, I live it, you know. [laughs] Yeah. I do. Yeah. And I love it.
But I wanna talk a little bit about just the overall thesis, because we live in an era where... I mean, this is my sort of, you know, outsider perspective, that- Sure... a lot of marketers stopped marketing, in my view.
They were-- they've been looking at dashboards. They've thought that marketing was like a customer vending machine, where you just like, you know, you keep feeding in quarters, and then you take out...
Maybe it's like one of those qual things, but actually that has some kind of skill. But you just feed in- Yeah... a bunch of quarters, and then customers come out at the bottom. Sure.
Platforms got everyone, to me, like, hooked on this idea that you're, you're not really marketing, you're buying distribution. It's buying- Yeah... shelf space. And that's fine.
There's always been buying shelf space and buying distribution. But it, it is different to me than marketing. Mm-hmm. Right? How do you end up... The, the media is obviously very powerful, right?
And it's always been, it's always been like, you know, more powerful than it... It's been like bigger. They always said with big brands, small businesses, right? Like, as a business- Yeah...
media is not exactly the best. There's, there's a lot easier ways to make money, honestly, than to run a media business. [laughs] I gotta say. Yeah. Real estate, energy. There's lots of different areas. Tech, [laughs]
for instance. Yeah. But media is very good at, like, getting attention. But, like, it is different- Mm-hmm... than performance. Like how-- and I guess- Yeah...
you guys were unique in that it was in the DNA with the inbound marketing approach, right? Yeah, exactly right.
I mean, culturally, one of the things that HubSpot's always talked about is offer value before you extract value.
And like, we position ourselves to be able to provide audiences, whether they're customers or not, with-Free news, free education, stories, insights, perspectives from experts.
And ultimately, the goal is to be able to build an audience, and I think we see the audience as an asset, right? We may sell to that audience in the next 90 days, we may sell to that audience 36 months from now.
But we're building an audience of folks who engage with us, start to introduce them to HubSpot the business, and they get to know us through the content and the value we provide them.
And so I do think there's a lot of companies that talk about doing this, but they always revert back to short-term thinking and like content that's about the product itself or the, the functional features of it as opposed to can you actually build value, build-- can you build a media product that people wanna come back to every week?
And I think that's our approach, and that's a differentiator for us, for sure. Yeah, because I mean, The Hustle is not... I mean, it's not about CRMs. No.
[chuckles] And my first million does not talk about CRMs a lot, I noticed. And, you know, I think that the normal-- look, it's like the cliché is in, in consumer market is make the logo bigger, but, right?
[chuckles] Like it's like- Sure.... can we, can we make the, [chuckles] I guess the B2B version is like, can we send the product specs, though, in there? Yep.
So, you know, I think it does take a longer term view that a lot of people, you know, don't have. But like what was the experience with The Hustle in you have to produce like results, right? Sure.
But you don't wanna, you don't wanna kill the asset and, and, you know, it's been three years now, so like, you know, a lot of people have, h-have killed assets that they've purchased, particularly when they're outside, you know, the media- Mm-hmm...
world. And usually I think it's because they wanna make it more about the product itself necessarily. Yeah. Like how would you...
what, what were your sort of like lessons that you learned over, you know, the last few years with having The Hustle do what it's always been good at, right? For- Mm-hmm... to that audience, but at the same time,
y-you know, there's a spreadsheet somewhere. Yeah. Of course. Of course, right? [chuckles] You gotta, you gotta put the MQLs and SQLs up on the board, I'm like- Yeah.
I always joke with my team 'cause like during the week, I may be in a meeting, and I'm a B2B demand gen marketer, right? I'm talking conversion rate leads- [chuckles]...
MQLs, influenced MRR, and then I'm in other meetings where we're talking about story pitches, angles, internal sources, external sources, what are we gonna talk about this week? We have very similar- And that balance-...
lives, actually. [chuckles] Yeah. Yeah. It, it makes it a lot of fun, to be honest with you, is like how do you figure out that balance, that mix.
I do-- I will say like I was a member of the team post Hustle acquisition. Yeah.
So I was in this strategy and ops role at the time, and got to spend a lot of time with kinda the OG Hustle crew, as they called themselves in their Slack channel internally.
And working with Sam and Steph and, and Brad, you start to figure out, like what, what are they all about? Like, how do they find great stories? What are the angles? How do they develop those stories?
And how can we run a thread back to the business? And I do think we've gone through a few iterations over the last couple years, but we've expanded The Hustle newsletter into a franchise at this point.
We have a daily podcast.
We have a YouTube channel with over 150,000 subs, and we're now figuring out that motion around how do we get audiences to come back to that Hustle content each and every week, the startup, the entrepreneurial audience, and then introduce them to HubSpot over time, and there's absolutely a spreadsheet, right?
I think on all of our media products, they have their goals that are, are set for the editorial team, but the monetization and odd dev teams are very much focused on audience growth, conversion rate, and, and leads driven for the business.
But I do think we approach lead generation a little differently than folks.
I think as a tech company reaching out to a, you know, a traditional publisher or media buyer, you're plugging your product, and it's disruptive in the middle of their experience when they're watching a video or reading a newsletter.
We don't wanna disrupt our audiences. So we're actually creating premium content assets that are an extension of what's being presented in front of that audience on that media product.
So to give you like a tangible example, you could be watching a Hustle video about a really unconventional business, gas station pizza empires, right?
And within that video, we'll actually do an extended cut in an interview with the person who founded that company, or we'll talk to them about the economics of their business, and we'll wrap that into like a downloadable asset to pair with that video.
And I think that's just a unique value offering, where you're not only in the mindset of watching this great story, but if you are someone who is interested in business and, and launching your own products and being an entrepreneur, there's kind of this utility asset that- Yeah...
aligns to the content. And so that's one of the motions we've been building with them. But, but what comes first? I guess that's the question. 'Cause y-you're like- Yeah... you're balancing the line, right?
Because look- Sure... this is a business a-at the end of the day. Mm-hmm. It, it is a business.
And, you know, you have to deliver the results, but then at the same time, you obviously, if The Hustle becomes, you know, sponsoratorial, then it's gonna lose the value that attracted it to you in the first place.
I mean, it's just inevitable. Yep. It, it'll have a different type of value, but the value is going to be different.
But at the same time, like it is not efficient, I don't think it would be efficient, to buy an asset like The Hustle just to have access to ad inventory. Sure. Yeah.
I think what's unique about the ad inventory is we're... for us, right, it's a strategic asset. We can deploy that inventory to drive pipeline for the business.
We might be able to use it for partnerships, whether it's a publisher or creator that we're working with.
I do think not being reliant on that ad revenue gives us a lot of strategic flexibility in how we use that inventory.
When folks joined HubSpot, The Hustle, like one of the core principles was editorial independence, and I think if you talk to the writers, editors, we've kept that over the last three years, and we act-actually have that same principle when we work with independent creators.
To your point-They're gonna lose the trust of the audience if it starts to feel overly produced, overly scripted by kind of the corporate brand partner.
We know that, that the in-independence and-- is actually an asset for us, and it's more risky to take that away.
And so we've completely allowed our, our, um, editorial teams to focus on just building great media products for the audiences we serve, and then it's on, it's on us, the aud dev and monetization team, to figure out, okay, how do we add additional value?
How do we move those audiences- Oh, okay...down the funnel for us? So they-- you're not making them marketers necessarily.
Like, I mean, so like, are they, are they accountable on, you know, qualified leads, or are they accountable on more like, you know, media, media metrics? More media metrics.
I'd say, you know, the editorial teams are looking at those signal metrics, right?
So if you're a n-newsletter writer, you're looking at unique open rate, you're looking at click-through rate, top articles, p- average time on page.
If you're a supervising producer, you're looking at click-through rate, average view duration, time spent with us- Yeah...subscriber growth on the channel. That's where they're spending their time.
For audience development and monetization, right, I'm, I'm working with my editorial partners every day on, okay, so what are the top-performing pieces of content?
What are unique ways that we can introduce them to our premium offerings to move them further down HubSpot's funnel? So it is a tough balance, to be honest with you, I think.
But at least for us, we've, we've stuck to that core principle of editorial independence is gonna make a great product. And if we have a great product, we'll have larger audiences to work with.
Yeah, now with The Hustle came My First Million. Like, I- Yeah...it was popular when you bought it, but it's kind of like-- I feel like it's kind of exploded since then.
Like it's become- Yeah, the audience growth is about four X at this point since they joined.
I just had a call like earlier today, [laughs] I'm not even making this up, like- Yeah...and someone was like, "I don't know, I mean, do you see this My First Million?" Like one of their- [laughs]...their episodes.
And I was like, "Oh my God, doing a podcast later." [laughs] Yeah, we'll be talking about it. Yeah, no, they didn't even... Yeah, so Sam Parr, who, who founded The Hustle, he, he co-hosts it with Shaun Puri.
Is it Puri or Puri? Shaun Puri, yep. Puri. They got a great dynamic. They're, they're good characters. Yeah. I, I, I greatly enjoy the podcast. However, it has grown quite a bit, and like- Mm-hmm...I actually, I saw Sam.
I'm like, "I think it would be way more valuable outside of HubSpot than like inside HubSpot at this point." Like, a podcast of that like size, like is very valuable on its own. Yeah.
And how do you think about that relative to, you know, it's very valuable to like HubSpot, right? Mm-hmm. But I don't know if it wouldn't be more valuable like outside of HubSpot. [laughs] I hope not.
'Cause that makes- I think we're putting a lot into it. I, I get what you're saying. I'm trying to goose you around in there [laughs] here. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, at least for...
It, it came over in the Hustle acquisition, and I've done a lot of work with Sam and Shaun. Obviously started off as an audio-only show. We moved into YouTube, and that's where we really saw a ton of growth.
And we've done a lot with those guys to grow the show. We're investing in events. We're investing in partnerships. The goal is to, you know, have that be one of the top business podcasts on YouTube and, and in the space.
And I think for us, we just continue to invest in it. We see the value in it, both from just a content standpoint, I think to your point, they have a great dynamic. They tell really interesting stories.
And we know that entrepreneurs love their content.
I can't tell you how many times I go to a dinner party or even like my father-in-law came over one day and he was like, "Do you know about this like My First Million show?"
[laughs] 'Cause he's like trying to start a ho- side hustle. I'm like, "Yes, they're part of [laughs] HubSpot Media." It's just an in-incredible show that's getting a lot of reach for us.
And I'd mentioned that monetization motion. We're starting to collaborate with Sam and Shaun on like what does that look like?
What can we offer your, your listeners, your viewers, in addition to the show to, to help add value to you? So we've done some like custom templates or guides from, from Sam.
We're starting to think about like I love what the information is doing with directories and databases.
We're like, can we create something with Sam and Shaun that's a valuable addition for those entrepreneurs that watch the show?
So it's a fantastic asset for us, but, you know, I think it's, it's an anchor and it's gonna continue to be valuable. Yeah. But there, there's no like third-party monetization. There's not. There's not.
I mean, I-- if you go to the channel, I think, you know, ad, ad monetization is turned on the YouTube channel. It's a fairly insignificant amount. We're not doing any ad sales.
We're really leveraging it to, to build audience at this point. And so that like... So are podcasts good for like leads? [laughs] I think it depends on the format. I-- we've, we've figured out a great motion- Say yes.
I wanna take this to my, my clients. [laughs] Yeah, yeah, definitely. I mean, we- [laughs]...audio only, no, right? I mean, it's a matter of consumption habits.
It's like if I'm listening to a show on Spotify, it's probably in my car or at the gym or on a walk or something. There's nothing I can click and download. YouTube has been a, a huge unlock for us and a big investment.
We've figured out that folks are watching on their desktop, listening in the background. We've seen actually a spike in folks watching on their TVs, and we figured out a motion to get them to take an action.
And so we're able to drive a fairly significant number of leads out of the YouTube channels. Okay, so YouTube is good for... I mean, obviously YouTube is, is massive. I mean, it's- Sure...it's TV at this point, right?
And- Yeah...a lot of these... I-- w-we need a new term. Like podcast is not the right term 'cause most- I know...podcasts are, they're almost like YouTube shows, podcasts. I don't know what it, what it is exactly.
But it's interesting. So like you can get some kind of interaction more likely w-with, with the YouTube component. Like that makes it way more valuable. Yeah. It's the-- there's real estate for that clickRight.
I think like within YouTube, whether it's inside the video itself, within the description or first comment on a video, there's a place for a, a brand to put a link and have someone take an action.
I also think people are just a little more engaged and proactive when they're on YouTube, right? It's a one-to-one visual medium. You're sitting at your desktop watching something.
You might click and go check out something else on your second screen. But it's definitely more proactive than kinda like passively listening to a show when you're going on a walk.
So we've just seen that motion both on like, I think, podcast type shows, those talk shows, but also on more like explainers or educational formats where folks are trying to learn something.
Getting them to take another action to continue their learning has been something we've been successful with. Okay. So tell me about the Creator Network. Yeah.
Because obviously, yeah, I think one of the big things in, in, you know, what I call the information space is like institutions have kinda given a way to individ- individuals- Sure... at least at this point in time.
There's just more trust, more authenticity, et cetera. Yeah. And obviously marketers are adapting to that. And a lot of times it's, it's to... it's through ad campaign. I mean, usually marketers- Mm-hmm...
it's like, okay, that's the way, you know, we're gonna adapt there.
Now I, I have a lot of doubts about companies themselves creating their own, like, influencers necessarily, but tell me what you're, you're, you're trying to do with the Creator Network. Yeah.
The individual and institution line, I'm pretty sure I've used that in an internal memo referencing, referencing your work. I think for us it, it's a matter of approaching creators differently.
I think if you're a media company, you're probably approaching creators more for collaboration or talent, right? Like someone to work with to produce a show.
If you're a brand, like you said, I'm treating creators as influencers. I have a campaign coming up. I wanna give them my brief, my talking points.
I want them to deliver the message in a unique way, but I also wanna sign off and have approval on that post. That's not what we're... That's not what we're about, that's not what we've built at HubSpot.
Our, our whole program is built to encourage creators to continue growing their media products and maintain that editorial independence.
So I've talked to other folks in the space, whether it's either Alex Lieberman or Lenny, and like the, the networks that people are building, you're testing different models, whether it's like a accelerator program or a rev share agreements if you're doing ads.
For us, it's structured more like a, a fund. So we have a budget to invest in creators, and we can do like a seed stage investment where we're just getting to know each other.
We have s- emerging creators, folks who we think have great audience alignment, great topical alignment, similar editorial values. We wanna do some expanded work with them.
And then full-blown established media partnerships. They speak at our events. We co-create content together. We've co-created a show with Matt Wolfe, an AI YouTuber.
So we've built it more as like an investment model and how do we partner with creators, give them the capital to continue making a great media product, but then also be more of a partner and advisor on like audience development.
And that's been... at least taking that approach has, has been successful for us. We've expanded from podcasts into YouTube, and we're moving more into newsletters this year. So how do you judge that that's valuable?
I mean, this sounds great, like, you know, you're a fund and you're, you're helping- Sure... them grow their properties, but like they gotta- Yeah... they gotta d- they gotta deliver leads for you, right?
[chuckles] They do. They do. I think it's, it's a balance, right? I think with any fund you have like anchors that do a lot of work for you, and then you have some bets you're making. Mm-hmm.
For us, depending on the relationship we're building, say it's a podcast, for example, we're not expecting leads from them. Our goal is to, to move into different audience segments and niches.
We wanna partner with folks who have already built up trust with those audiences. We love their content.
We think there's additional value we can get from working together, having them contribute a column to our blog or speak at our event.
And so we develop that partnership so it's beneficial for both the creator and HubSpot Media.
If you're working with a newsletter writer or a YouTube channel that, that has built up a pretty significant following, there is a lead gen component to it, right?
We have to be able to make that investment and show, okay, audiences from these media products are coming over to HubSpot and eventually supporting pipeline development for the business.
But I would say it's not our like core metric we're optimizing against, because I think our biggest worry is short-term thinking. Mm-hmm. Like the... What we wanna do is build a network of authoritative voices.
We wanna build a network of media products that people come back to and we continue to grow together, and we think that, that, that reach and that audience growth and that influence com- outweighs the demand it can drive in the next 30 days.
Now, it's a tough balance, right? Like we have lead goals to hit. You, you work with your partners and your clients in figuring how to, how to hit those numbers, and we're doing the same thing.
And I think we've built kinda like cost and return models that, that prove that you can build an audience over time and eventually influence revenue for HubSpot, the software company. Yeah.
I mean, it's really hard in, I mean, in B2B, like everyone... Obviously performance is, is everything, right? Sure. Like the, the days where you couldn't perform are, are over, right?
But like the idea that like someone is in the market for like a CRM at that moment in time- Yeah... in 30-day window is... I mean, just it just [chuckles]... And I... What are the chances?
Like, I mean, like, you know, some, sure. But like- Sure... you know, the fact that you can't just show up i, in that 30-day period. [chuckles] I don't... I mean, I, I-No, you're exactly right. Yeah.
A majority, a majority of the audiences we're reaching are not in the market to buy software right now, right? I think it is that long-term bet. We're saying- I'm gonna clip this... we want a partner.
I'm gonna clip this and use it. It is. It is. [chuckles] It-- I do think there's just, there's so... One, there's a ton of brand value from it, right? Brand association with these authoritative voices.
Many time they're practitioners, even though I know this week we talked about pundits. [chuckles] But we're-- these creators have built trust with audiences, and we wanna work with them and be associated with them.
And it goes back to that- Yeah... that core principle value I mentioned earlier around offer value before we extract value.
And the last thing I would say on this is, like, you can't be in the consideration set when someone's ready to buy software if they've never heard of you before, right?
And it takes time for them to hear about you and trust you. And we think that media is a way to attract and acquire audiences, and eventually down the road when they're ready, hopefully they'll consider us. Right.
I wanna talk to you a little bit about SEO. As I said, like, inbound to me, uh, we used to do these things, like, when I was at Digiday with, like, what people say and what they mean and when they see you. Mm-hmm.
I would've done one, like, inbound marketing, but they really mean SEO. Yep. [chuckles] And there's a lot of that in marketing. It's, it's fun to do. But obviously, Google's going through it right now. I mean- Mm-hmm...
there, there's... And, you know, I don't know, some of the numbers they put out are just not totally... Just maybe it's just me. I'm like, I'm using ChatGPT, like, every day, all the time.
Like, my Google Search- All the time... is way down. And publishers have been dealing with, you know, Google is trying to shift and trying to recalibrate.
And Search, which was always the most reliable audience development source has- Mm-hmm... become unreliable in many way, shapes, or form.
I would think that that would have a, a, a big impact on, on a, an inbound strategy. Oh, yeah, significant impact.
You know, HubSpot, the marketing team had invested a significant amount into SEO and blog content over a decade.
But our internals and some of the more, like, market shifts over the last couple years told us that, "Hey, we're gonna need to diversify our investments and, and our distribution sources."
And so we have seen dips on our blog, on our site. Just, I think couple reasons. One is core algorithm changes from Google. Two is the introduction of those AI tools that folks are going to, to get answers.
We're trying to figure out how do we still capture demand when someone is in the market looking for a solution. I think folks are still doing research and looking for solutions through Google or through those AI tools.
But we're in a world at this point, which you mentioned, it's like information consumption is just fragmented.
It's like anybody on their phone can go to YouTube, go to Spotify, go to Gmail, go to ChatGPT all on the same day. It's not like folks are just going to Google to get what they need anymore.
And so for us, we've had to figure out, okay, well, how do we reach those people when they're not searching on the channel they used to? And a, a lot of times, another term we talk about is just it's zero click.
These platforms- Mm-hmm... are keeping people on the, the platforms, and they're incentivized to do that, which hurts publishers as well. Like, how do we get folks over to our own product?
So it's definitely a tough balance. I think these last two years have been challenging. Yeah. It's gonna get even more challenging with...
You know, I mean, the, the, you know, looks like Google's gonna get broken up with its, its ad tech business, and then it has less of an incentive to send traffic out to publishers. Like, I'm like- Sure. Yeah...
you can complain all you want, but, like, be careful what you wish for because they at least, you know, the system right now is very imperfect, but for publishers that, you know, have ad businesses, there was at least, you know, a tacit understanding, yeah, we're gonna send you traffic, but you're also gonna monetize it through our ad tech sys- stack, and- Sure...
we're gonna get a piece on the back end. And when those incentives change, then, you know, behavior tends to, to, to follow. I'm interested in, like, in, you know, obviously AI is a big topic right now. And- Mm-hmm...
how do you think that is gonna change the nature of marketing? I was reading, uh, Andrew Chen had this, uh- Mm-hmm... you know, the... He's a VC, right? Yeah. Yeah. I think Andreessen, right? Yeah.
I think he's at Andreessen. Yeah. But he had, he had this, you know, Substack post where he was talking all about how AI's gonna collapse the funnel and, and, and everything, and it's going to really overturn marketing.
And I think it makes some sense. I mean, my... I, I believe that, you know, I, I always just go back to, like, history and I'm like, advertising always finds a way, and it's a subset of marketing. But I mean- Sure...
I, I just do not see, you know, marketers being like, "Oh, well, you know, we're just gonna let the machines take over." Like, no, that's just not how this works. No.
How do you, ver- From where you sit, like, how, how do you- Mm-hmm... think about the impacts that AI is gonna have on, on what you do? Yeah.
I think there's the, the acquisition side, and then there's the internal side, right? Mm-hmm. Just being able to use these tools.
I think on the acquisition side, I r- I read that, I read that es- I think it was, like, all marketing sucks right now, right? And- Yeah. [chuckles] I think that, I mean, he's not wrong.
We're all facing the same headwinds. Search is unreliable. Digital ads are expensive. Audiences are fragmented across all these channels. And I do think you have to start to figure out, okay, well, what...
where can my strengths be, and where can I build up my capabilities?
Where we've started to, I think, one, from HubSpot, the software company, media and brand become a moat, as like you just need to be able to attract audiences through great content and eventually introduce them to your software.
But for the media arm and, like, building up our, our media brands, The Hustle, uh, Masters in Marketing, Mindstream, we've actually done a lot of hard work in just, like, personal relationship building.
So I mentioned our creator program. We did deals with over 200 creators last year.
We're figuring out, how do we partner with creators on either co-creation or co-promotion of each other's media products to drive cross-promotion and subscriptions?
We're starting to reach out to adjacent publishers, so we've done some, you know, basic swaps with Upside and Semafor, but we're actually having conversations withSurewood and Adweek and like how can we actually like work together because we have adjacent audiences, we could probably bring our capabilities together and, and develop something our audiences would be really interested in.
And the last piece is I do think social's playing a little, like a lit- it's having a little bit of a comeback. I think we've seen organic social as more of like a reach and engagement play, but we're getting...
Like one of our newsletters, 10% of their monthly subscribers are coming from organic social. Hmm. We're seeing folks who are engaging with the content and saying, "I want more." Right?
And they're- we're giving them that path to go subscribe to a newsletter. So I do think it's harder work, like it comes down to the relationship building and getting on calls and figuring out how to work together. Sure.
And the last piece is I, I do-- you go say go back in history, I have this copy of A Master Class in Brand Planning that sits on my desk.
So Stephen King was this like JWT strategist from the '70s and '80s, and it comes down to like, can I build a brand people seek out, right?
They wanna come to you and they wanna consume your content, they wanna understand who you are and what you have to offer.
And I think we're going from a, an era where marketers, you know, can measure conversion rate ROAS in their sleep, and now they're gonna have to, to write some headlines and figure out how do I do some more brand building activities.
Yeah, it's back, it's back to the basics. It is. It's back to basics. I, like I'm glad you said that. For sure. 'Cause I just feel like there's been...
It's just been a weird blip in time that I feel like a lot of marketing has become like following numbers on dashboards, and it's- Mm-hmm...
like not rolling up your sleeves and building a brand and doing all the David Ogilvy stuff that like has been around forever. Like- Yeah... I don't know, you, you gotta market, that's the answer [chuckles].
So the-- I, I could not agree more. Give me your take on like B2B marketing, right? It doesn't get a lot of like focus, and like I... Yeah, this, it's, it's, I guess it's my full-time job, right?
Like I mean like- Sure... you know, I'm, I'm like creating content- At this point, yeah... at the same time.
I mean, this is the first time I, you know, in the last few years, this is the first time I've been sort of on, you know, talking to the marketers themselves about like their jobs and what they want, so this is educational for me.
But give me- Yeah... your take on the sort of state of B2B marketing. Gosh. Well, I, I do think it's in the state of trying to figure itself out again, like we've been talking about.
I, I had someone comment on a LinkedIn post this week around, you know, what should they be studying to be able to kinda navigate this.
And I, I'd said, "As a B2B marketer, I'm studying B2C for brand building and promotion, and I'm studying B2B media for content."
I'm not necessarily interested in what other B2B marketers are doing, 'cause I don't think it focuses on like those fundamentals you and I are talking about.
I think a lot of times B2B brands talk about the functionality of the product.
They come up with some AI super powered whatever copy to try and get folks to download something instead of just talking to them like a human and being able to offer them value, whether that's in the form of a newsletter like The Hustle, a YouTube video that teaches them something.
But I think B2B marketers are trying to figure that out right now, is just like, how do I balance my mix that was dominated by a decade of performance marketing and now I need to actually build a brand, be top of mind for folks, and then get folks to, you know, consider me when they're ready to buy software.
Yeah. But I'm, I'm studying B2C and I'm studying B2B media at this point. Yeah. I mean, it's hard because like a lot...
You know, it, I mean, the old joke about like Salesforce is like it's a company like everyone knows but no one knows what they do. Like, I mean, that's the old- Sure... like joke around that. But I mean, a lot of...
Like I know like the ad tech world, for instance, there. Mm-hmm. And a lot of like, a lot of the language just sort of runs together, like in how they sort of describe themselves.
Like I mean, it, it would be, you know, you take the logo out of them and the words are just like ordered a little bit differently. And it can be hard to- Yeah...
it's a different type of challenge, and I do think though it comes down to that they used to call speeds and feeds, right? [chuckles] Like where- Yeah, yeah...
you're just, you're just talking about, you know, the product specs in the marketing rather than, you know, what it enables you to do. It's not the same as, as marketing Coke, right? But- Right...
you know, there is a promise to using these products and- Definitely... that's, that's sort of the, the overall basics of it, I guess. Yeah. Yeah.
I mean, I, like going back in history like you mentioned and studying B2C, it, it-- there's the functional benefits of your product, but then there's kind of this emotional benefits as well, like what does it enable you to do.
And I think just B2B marketers are gonna have to get more exposure to that world.
Like a book I read recently was Emily Heyward from Red Antler and how they built up the Casper brand, how they built up the Hatch brand, and just thinking, like learning how they think through that positioning, that messaging, that value.
Emotion plays a big component of it, which is k- sounds kinda weird for B2B, but if you can make things easy for people, if you can help them do their jobs better, if you can help them grow their business, there is a, a feeling with that, right?
You just have to figure out how do you communicate that. So within B2B marketing, like which channels are you most bullish on right now? I am most bullish on YouTube and creator partnerships for us right now.
YouTube, I just think one-- everybody knew like, oh, YouTube's the second largest search engine, right? Mm-hmm. But I think you're now seeing just audiences shift there, like you mentioned earlier. It is TV, right?
I th- Nielsen said, what? It's number two streaming platform in the US behind Disney or something like that. So at this point, it's a massive search engine. Audiences are going there in droves.
They're watching on their TV, they're watching on their phone, they're watching on their desktop.
V- videos, the medium people are, are preferring, and I, I think you have to invest there, and I don't think you can go on YouTube with, you know, product videos, product demos necessarily, unlessYou're someone who's, like, specifically a user of a product and trying to learn how to use it.
I think you gotta study the formats that work on YouTube and, like, look at creators and how do they draw an audience in, how do they develop explainers, how do they develop their hooks.
Like, I think B2B is gonna have to start to study that and just offer value in video formats. And then creators, I know folks are, like, talking about influencer marketing.
I do think B2B marketers have to be more strategic in how they approach the creators, and really work with folks that run media products and have good alignment with you.
Like, they have good alignment on the audience, the topical coverage, the editorial values. They're someone you actually wanna partner with and work with. Mm-hmm. Maybe you'll make something together.
I do think it's a miss to c- continue going to creators and saying, "Hey, I want this one-off post or this one-off video sponsorship."
It may work for you for, you know, a, a week or a month, but it's not gonna add value to the business long term.
And so I'm, I'm bullish on partnering with creators and doing more 12, 24-month, 36-month partnerships to figure out how do we work together to reach these audiences. How about in person? Yeah. 'Cause I...
A lot of B2B is in person. I mean, there's, like, a trillion B2B, like, mar- events out there. Yeah, it keeps coming up.
I don't know, maybe, maybe it's different in your, in your field, but, like, in, like, the ad, like, media wor- like, I, I do think there are some people that only...
Their, like, organisms are, like, 70% croissant and red wine [laughs] at this point- Sure... 'cause they, they s- they're, they've been at, they've been at events basically for most of their adult lives. Yeah.
I mean, I, y- yes on events, and I, I think at least for m- like, HubSpot obviously has a large inbound conference, which I know you attended in the past. I went to, to it, yeah. And, like, it's a fantastic event.
Where we're, where we're actually seeing- It's massive... Massive, massive. I think it was, gosh, 12, 12, 15,000 folks in Boston last year or something like that.
Yeah, I was on a, I was on a stage on a session, and I was so far away from the other person, it was, like, so cavernous. I couldn't, I couldn't really understand everything, like, that, that what they were saying.
But, like, that's when you know you're a true professional. Yeah. You answer the questions That's right. You're like, "I think he said this. I got it, I got it." [laughs] Go on.
But those big events, I mean, no doubt they have value, and th- they're very valuable for HubSpot software customers. It's a great place for us to engage with customers.
On the media side, we're starting to do smaller events. So The Hustle is doing an event in New York City this quarter.
We're talking Mindstream, which is our AI newsletter, a partnership with The Next Wave, our AI podcast, and, like, can we do something in San Diego with Matt Wolfe.
And we did something with Sam and Sean in My First Million last year. I think we had 1,000 folks show up for a live recording. So I do- Wow... think that becomes a bigger role and... But it's more of...
I think it's these, like, small, intimate gatherings, and I do think the programming has to hit, right? It can't be, "Hey, I'm gonna offer you a presentation and then try to sell you software." I don't think- Mm-hmm...
that's what we're trying to do. I think it's, like, offer folks access, offer them insider interviews, offer them profiles. Do, do a live recording, and just create an environment for folks to, to get together and talk.
I... The last thing I'll say on this is, like, COVID forced everybody to work at home, and then a lot of companies said you can work remote forever, and you don't get that office engagement like you used to.
And I think these small events, these local regional events, give people that opportunity, and they're incredibly engaged, right? They, they look forward to it. They wanna buy a ticket and attend.
So I do think that's gonna play a bigger role over the next couple years. Okay. So how do you... Are you surprised that more companies haven't, like, followed this playbook? I mean, yeah, there are examples- Sure...
out there, right? But, like- Yeah... in my view, most have not. Like, I, I'd like... You know, I think when The Hustle, when you guys acquired The Hustle- Mm-hmm...
it opened a lot of eyes and, and there was this thought, "Oh, this is, like, a new, you know, new wave."
And I'm like, "Mm, there have been, like, some here and there," but I don't think it's been, like, some massive trend. No, I don't think so. I mean, I... You saw some, some acquisitions, right?
Snapped with Robinhood and- And some that added more than... You know, MailChimp bought one, and that didn't work. Um- Yeah, yeah.
Indie Hackers, I think Stripe ha- had purchased Indie Hackers, kept them fully independent. They have a great product. I, I do think it comes down to, like, are you willing to make the long-term investment?
Like, are you willing to say, "Hey, we're gonna build audience," and that takes years. And I also think it's important for all the things we talked about at the beginning around do we give folks editorial independence?
Are we willing to build an audience? Are we willing to build media brands? Because the media brands and the creators are what at- attract the audience.
Like, nobody's subscribing to, like, a corporate, uh, newsletter or a corporate podcast, right? They're, they're attracted to the talent, the practitioners, the, the writers, the editors. It's, it's a lot.
Like, recruiting that talent, bringing them in, building up a talent roster- Yeah... committing to it for years.
Like, I just think brands don't realize how much goes into building great media products and it's, uh, it's something we've completely believed in since 2021, but I do think it's a hard playbook to replicate.
And I think that media sensibility sometimes is just missing from a lot of, like, technology companies, you know? Yeah.
I mean, like, there's a lot going on that's super interesting and, like, great assets, like we talked about Andreessen, like, you know, wi- in technology companies. But sometimes...
Like, I mean, I think of, like, you know, I've, I've nothing against, I've, I think, former, former colleagues who have worked there now, but, like, you know, uh, The Trade Desk tries to do, like, The Current- Yeah...
which is a news thing. And to me, I'm like, "You know, you guys don't do news." And I'm like, anytime you're doing news, you know... If I'm reading on The Current about, like- Yep...
the Google getting broken up, and the fact that [chuckles] I'm like, "Okay. Yeah, it's from The Trade Desk." Like, I mean, come on, there's 0% chance- Sure... I'm going to read that and not, like...
You know, they're not going to present something... I could be wrong. Maybe I've missed the ones. But I just think- Yeah... I think news is something that, that is probably less-Like you guys don't do news, right?
Yeah, it's challenging. I mean, if you read The Hustle daily, we definitely bring you the latest headlines in business and tech, and, you know, we'll cover the Fortune 500, we'll cover big tech.
But I think we're more interested in doing the unconventional business stories, right? Like the gas station pizza empire or the millionaire truck drivers.
There's, there's something- Well, you're looking, again, like a demographic or psychographic or something, not like... That's the, the sort of difference of that sort of heavy-handed marketing- Sure...
approach where it's like you're basically marketing or doing PR ver- version of marketing to, you know, about... You... I don't know. It's, you, you mix the chocolate and peanut butter too much [laughs] doing your news.
I d- yeah, agreed. Agreed. I think it's a, a tough balance and, like you said, we're, we're not necessarily on that, that news cycle. We're j- it's part of our mix at this point. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. Cool.
Well, let's leave it there. Kyle, any, uh- Cool... any sort of final thoughts of things that we did not get to? No. No, I appreciate it.
I hope, you know, hope folks are interested in, like, how we built out that creator program and the balance for sure.
Yeah, no, I think the stuff that you guys are doing is, like, really, like, forward-thinking and, and it is also, as I said, like, the, the opening, I think it's just indicative to how the media world is totally decentralized and there's so many different- Mm-hmm...
like, everybody, everybody is in it, everybody gets to sort of compete for attention and influence, and I think that makes it exciting. Yeah. Yeah. It's been fun over the last couple years for sure. All right. Cool.
Well, thanks again. Yeah. No, it was great. Thanks for doing this, you know, late on a Friday before the weekend. [upbeat music] But it was good seeing you. Let me know if you need anything.