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[upbeat music] Welcome to "The Rubini Show." I'm Brian Morrissey.

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I'm continuing our set of episodes that preview the year ahead this week, and today I am speaking with Sarah Fisher, who writes the Axios Media Trends newsletter.

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She's a great reporter who I know I depend on keeping up to date on all the comings and goings in this industry. And we wanted to focus in this episode on what we're calling alternative media in the year ahead.

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And, you know, obviously institutional media has, has lost traction over the last several years, and it has come in large part at the expense of the growth of alternative media channels.

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And I think our conversation is pretty timely because this is w- I think one of the biggest shifts we're seeing since the beginning of the internet.

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And, you know, unlike the early predictions that digitally native companies like Buzzfeed or Vox would become the new media giants, it turns out [chuckles] the real disruption came from independent creators, YouTubers, and podcasters.

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And this is putting pressure on institutional media companies to shift their structures, talk about it a lot. And Sarah's actually part of this.

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You know, Axios is about to roll out a subscription product for Axios Media Trends. And to me this is something that we'll see more of in the years to come.

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You know, institutional media brands will build franchises around key talent, and we discuss that.

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We also talk about the decline in trust in journalism overall and how measures large and small are being taken to restore that trust, which has leaked out to the edges as we go through this populist period where the authenticity of individuals is so heavily valued.

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And in particular, we discuss the critical role of curiosity in journalism. I mean, it's an area that I think has a lot of legs.

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Um, the profession of journalism, you know, rightly emphasizes accountability journalism and, and that's critical and, of course, under threat.

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But the packaging of the product can sometimes give the impression of facts assembled to make a case, and it is used in both good faith sort of criticism, but also as a way to de-legitimize the press.

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So it's a thorny issue, and we get into this. I hope you enjoy this conversation, this episode.

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And all of the preview episodes are brought to you by Exco, the machine learning video platform trusted by leading media groups like Advance Local, Theory to Group, Hearst Newspapers, Nasdaq, News Corp, and more.

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Thank you to my friends over at Exco, [upbeat music] and here's my conversation with Sarah. All right, Sarah, we're, we're gonna come in hot. Thank you for doing...

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I think this is your third or fourth time on the podcast. They're always well listened to. I love this podcast. Thanks for having me. [laughs] Okay, so I think it's the end of this month.

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You guys have been teasing it for a little while. We're, we're gonna get into alternative media, but you've got, you've got a, a membership coming, and I think this is actually weirdly part of, of our discussion going.

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But, like, what can you tell us exactly about it? I'll be a customer. Oh, Brian, you're the best. [laughs] Wait, how much is it? Thank you. [laughs] Uh, it's gonna be... I think it's gonna be 300 or 400 bucks.

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We're still fi- finalizing that, and I'm really excited about it. It is meant for media executives, so practitioners, and it's really for people who need sound information to be able to make market-moving decisions.

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Even if you work at a private company, we wanna s- give you the right scoops, data, analysis, and reporting to be able to make sound business decisions for your company. So what does that look like?

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Members will get access to platform updates every other quarter, where we basically give you all the different changes to content moderation rules, advertising policies, speech policies.

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Something like that doesn't currently exist, to have that all in one place. We're gonna do ad economic updates each every other quarter, which categories are up, which categories are down.

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We'll do special reports on things that as a media executive you need to know about, but you might not- Yeah... have the time to just sit and research it yourself.

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So deep dives on measurement, you know, what is happening with the state of all these various vendors, what's happening between Paramount and Nielsen. We'll do s- things on copyright and IP.

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We'll do things on the state of Hollywood's recovery. So it's really about giving people information to do their jobs better.

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And then my weekly column, which includes most of my big scoops and exclusives for now will remain free. But- For now... there might be a world- That's like a threat.

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Yeah, I mean- That's a, that's a promise and a threat, everyone. I mean, there might be a world in which we can- If you don't convert, Sarah's putting that behind the paywall.

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Yeah, I mean, there's a lot of different options, but...

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And then obviously you'll get- we'll do a lot of different membership events, which I know, Brian, you do a ton of those, and I see you at a bunch of those, where you'll get to talk to me and my colleague Kerry Flynn, who's gonna be coming over to work on this with me.

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And- My former colleague. Your former colleague.

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And I'm just super excited about it because I used to sell advertising, and I used to feel as though there wasn't this product that could act as a resource for me that existed out there.

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And so now I get to build it, and I'm so pumped. Yeah. So the reason I think that... I... Uh, that's very exciting that it's, it's coming out. So, like, Kerry, and, like, is Tim gonna...

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Uh, Tim Bassingor, is he gonna, like, contribute to it? Are you gonna contribute also? Tim's amazing. We're gonna keep-I would love to have contributors to it, and Tim's been so awesome.

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I, I think one of the interesting things is I took a look at this market and w- and we did at Axios, and one of the things that was so interesting was there's a lot of coverage right now of Hollywood, and we're gonna continue to do Hollywood coverage.

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You know, I cover streamers and entertainment and sports. Yeah. But where I felt there was a really interesting white space is, uh, catering to the sort of the Madison Avenue community.

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They have so many great resources with things like Ad Age and Adweek, but a lot of that is, like, agency moves.

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It's not some of the more sort of tactical information around what platforms are doing, what the-- where, where the ad economics are.

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And so we think there's a great opportunity there, but there's so much opportunity for expansion always. So yeah, when maybe one day if we have more contributors come in- Yeah. I'll give you a call, Brian.

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[chuckles] Oh, okay. Well, great. No, but I think, like-- 'cause I wanted to talk to you about alternative media, like, going in. We're doing these, like-like... I'm doing. We.

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I'm [chuckles] doing these, like, year ahead and looking at specific sectors. And to me, like, going into, to this year, it's gonna be a fascinating year for what I consider alternative media, all right?

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And that's everything that doesn't fall into the mainstream media.

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And basically, what I was, like, thinking last night was that, you know, going back, some old guy, like, when, like, the internet started, the, the assumption was that there'd be new players that would at some point either, you know, coexist or supplant the, the analog traditional media companies, the Condés, the Hearsts, the, even The New York Times, et cetera.

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And then, you know, that was where, you know, BuzzFeed and Vox and, and even Vice and, and Mic and all the rest of the, the, the, those got funded.

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But it turns out that, like, it was a bunch of YouTubers and podcasters [chuckles] actually that ended up taking that role to some degree.

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Like, you know, and I think we're now seeing this really fascinating decentralization of the media ecosystem that when I think about it was inevitable.

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It's like looking back, I'm like, "Well, of course this is inevitable."

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Like, y-you democratize, you know, uh, distribution, and then you're gonna democratize, like, creation, and eventually the s- the monetization systems will catch up, and you're gonna have complete chaos.

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[laughs] That's my working theory. It does kinda feel like chaos right now, though. Like, if you're a consumer, the opportunities for where you can get your content are so endless that it's almost hard to navigate.

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I think that's why platforms like TikTok have gotten so popular, because the recommendation systems help you to navigate this deluge of creators.

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And to me, that's, like, another big next step, not just monetization, but discovery of all these new creators is gonna be huge. Yeah.

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But it's hard for me not to put, you know, next to each other the, you know, the regular, you know, I, I, you know, you don't have all negative stories, right?

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I mean, we [chuckles] had a thing where we went through some of the headlines from previously.

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But, you know, it's like, oh, Dotdash Meredith, which is doing, like, you know, some of the best of the traditional media, well, they just whacked 150 something after whacking 50. You know, they're a big company.

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And you reprioritize. But come on, it's coming after the post takes out 100, Vox takes out... You know, it's, it gets a little, gets a little depressing in some ways.

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But then y- there has been a power shift, and I-- and money follows power to these, I don't what else to call it, but alternative media. We saw it...

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I mean, I, I harp on it, but this election was a massive wake-up call, I think, to how much the pendulum in many ways has swung from the traditional media companies to this very strange, chaotic group of alternative, alternative media, right?

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Yeah. Two thoughts first. One is on the layoffs part. This is a not a very regulated media with the exception-- or industry with the exception of, you know, local broadcast and radio.

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And so as a result, you are gonna have job turnover because of the disruption. It, it's inevitable, and there's n- it's just not a, you know, it's not heavily regulated.

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So when I think about, like, a Dotdash, yes, they are doing layoffs of whatever the number is this morning. I think I reported- One fifty-three... one hundred and forty-three- One fifty-four... something like that.

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Somewhere around there. But they also added that to their headcount last year, and they expect to add that to their headcount this year. It's really just that they're removing jobs that are not serving them.

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You know, they did big layoffs that targeted print last time- Yeah... so, or, or two times ago. So I think that's part of it.

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And then the other thing is on this election, the one thing I totally agree, it was a wake-up call that there are alternative voices that are in many ways more powerful and reach more people and a more diverse set of people than traditional media.

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But the one thing I will say, I did go through and I charted every single media appearance, both on the Trump side and the Kamala Harris side during the general election, so August to November.

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And there were definitely more traditional media appearances on both sides than non-traditional by far. In particular, like, Donald Trump was on Fox like every day. There you go.

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Kamala Harris was doing a ton of traditional radio. Donald Trump had an interview with the New York Post. So it's not...

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A-you know, and by comparison, they each did a few podcasts, but it was not as extreme as some people would say. But I do think your broader point is right.

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Like, the tipping, we have reached the tipping point where I think most people in America are getting their news and information just as much, if not more, from these alternative media sources.

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It definitely begs, uh, the question of what is the role then of what a traditional media company is. And I also think it's gonna force us to redefine ourselves as do we want to be a traditional media company or not?

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I think that's why firms like Puck are doing very well, because they are trying to kinda sit somewhere in the middle.

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Well, I mean, that's why I wanted to bring it, it, it sort of full circle here because, like, Axios is doing something very similar, I mean, with you, right?

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[chuckles] I think at the end of the day, I mean, Jim h-has, has said this, you know, you're going, you're gonna be elevating-You know, the, you're one of the stars there. I'll say it, Sarah, okay?

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And, like, you're going to be elevating these people because there's a ton of leverage in what, you know, particularly like individuals can not just, like, do who are, like, highly productive and, like, you're like everywhere at once.

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I don't know how you do that exactly. But also, like, who have a tie to an audience, right? While people, you know, say, "Oh, did you see that in, like, you know, Axios?"

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Like, a lot of times they say, "Did you see Sarah's thing on X to me," right? And they're... That kind of thing has a lot of power in the marketplace.

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And then on top of that, I feel like, which is very different now from when I was coming up, is people are... The people who are really good in this field are naturally ambidextrous, and they can do...

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They can not just, like, write, but they can podcast, they can host events, and, you know.

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And I think you're sort of seeing that the people who are able to do a bunch of different things have a lot of leverage in the marketplace.

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So you've got this weird thing where there's all these layoffs and everything, but at the same time, there's this bifurcation within the overall content field where if you do get through and you do have all of those prerequisites, and it is a power law, you've never had more options than ever.

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I couldn't agree more, and I thank you for the kind words.

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Although I will say, like, there, the way that, you know, our industry might speak about me is the way that the foreign affairs industry would speak about Barak Ravid or- Yeah...

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the politics industry would speak about Alex Thompson. And so we're trying t- really hard to make sure that the right reporter is speaking to the right audience.

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And I think that helps to build, uh, what you're describing as star power. It's really just like a, a focus within Axios of making sure we're hyper-serving the right audience with the right content.

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And the other thing I'd note too is there is this, this... This is happening across a lot of industries. I look at...

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My father was a doctor, and one of the things he was so good at, Brian, is he would bring us to the same restaurant every Friday growing up. It was like a local in-town Italian diner- Oh, yeah...

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because he was so good at shaking hands with the patients that he would see and then meeting their parents. "Oh, you're, you're in your 70s? Oh," like, you know, that person might need- Okay... a hip done, right?

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And then going to Jets games and socializing with people, and it became a skill that he wasn't just good at in the operating room, but he was really good at being a community builder, and that translated to business.

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And so I think that that is a skill that i- is not just for the media industry, but our industry in particular was so precious for so long that we viewed that as being non-journalistic for a long time, right?

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Like, you weren't committed to the craft if you were too focused on audience building.

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And now I think our industry is catching up to o- what others have done and seen for a long time, which is recognizing that it actually can make you better at your job.

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If you can build community, you can learn from your community, you can get scoops from your community.

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And so for me, I view a lot of these efforts as ability, my ability to improve journalism, and I'll give you one other example of that.

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With a lot of the B2B products that I just described to you, the thing I'm the most excited about, Brian, is that when you force yourself to go and sit through hours and hours of SEC filings, you're gonna break scoops.

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If you go and force yourself to skip, sift through using bots or whatever technology you can, all of the policy updates on big tech platforms, you're gonna break something, you're gonna find something.

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Same thing with doing these ad economic reports. I once, you know, scooped through, scoped through a lot of data and found something no one else had found, and it was a huge scoop.

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So for me, this is about, yes, like, developing close relationships with the community, catering the work to do what they care about, but I ultimately think at the end of the day, it does support big J journalism, and- Yeah...

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that's something I'm thrilled about. I mean, again, I think this is the sort of... There was this Julia Angwin at, at her, I think, Shorenstein Center about what sort of capital J journalism can learn from influencers.

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'Cause I think they, influencers, creators, whatever you wanna call them, like, have been held at, like... Like, I went to, like, journalism school, which I wouldn't recommend for anyone listening.

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But, like, there was always the broadcast people, and there was the print [chuckles] there was the, the print people, you know?

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And, like, you knew the broadcast people, and, like, you know, the, the print people were like, "Well, you know, they've got good teeth and nice hair."

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And it was sort of looked, I don't wanna say looked down upon, maybe it was, maybe it was in [chuckles] my, my circle.

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But, you know, it was looked at as, like, sort of, okay, well, that's, that's kind of not as, like, substantive in some ways. Mm-hmm.

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And I think packaging is incredibly important, and I think packaging has changed quite a bit from- Yes... the packaging of, like, the magazine and, like, the, the perfect, like, shot.

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I mean, once, like, COVID made everything, like, a Zoom call, and, and you see this with a lot of the podcasters and the YouTur-Tubers, some of them have really high production values, but, like, that's not, like, that's not the packaging.

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They're able to package... Like, I, I go back to this guy, like, Coffeezilla. Do you know him? I don't, but it sounds like somebody I would follow. You gotta check out Coffeezilla. He's, like, 26, 27 or something.

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He was, like, a chemical engineering student at Texas A&M, and he tried some YouTube channel and didn't totally...

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But then he got on to, like, he just, like, digs into, like, online scams, and he just, like, he's broken, like, a bunch of different, like, online scams.

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Mostly in crypto just because the supply, I think, is really high. [chuckles] Mm-hmm. But, like, no, beyond crypto. And he packages it incredibly on YouTube. Like, the product is way more attractive than, you know...

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I feel like a lot of times within, like, the journalism industrial complex, it's like blaming the audience for not being, "You must... Our very serious, like, reporting here deserves your attention."

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Well, he's doing investigative work, right? He's not credentialed. This isn't a credentialed p- profession, but he's packaging it in a really interesting way.

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Like, he has, like, a robot bartender who sometimes comes in to do a little- [chuckles]... exposition. Like, it's different, right? Yeah. And I think for a long time, you know, the industry h- didn't...

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looked at that as something-Less substantive, if you will. Mm-hmm. I c- I think that the industry was very caught up in writing for itself and writing for prizes, and, you know, it goes...

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It harkens back to the thing I said at the top of this conversation. I feel as though I wanna create a product for the people who are like me, who just needed the, to know the information faster to do their jobs.

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That's why I try to write at, like, a first-grade reading level. But it also harkens to what you're doing here, right? Like, we're talking on a podcast. You write a newsletter.

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It's no longer about having, like, the big web blog- Yeah... 'cause people don't have time to sit at their desktops and read those long web blogs.

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But if you take a look at a lot of traditional media, like, they basically copy... For a long time. It's gotten better. They just copy and pasted their print format and put it on the internet.

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Because it was all about- Oh, no... how they perceived product, and it was written for themselves, and, you know, the numbers don't lie. That does not work. You're not gonna have a sustainable audience by doing that.

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So people are trying to shift, but I will tell you- Yeah...

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Brian, one of the reasons these alternative media personalities are doing a good job is they're not weighed down by this massive bureaucracy that makes it really hard to change.

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Like, if TikTok goes away tomorrow, these creators are like, "All right. I'm gonna shift to Reels. All right." Yeah. "I'm gonna start putting more of my podcasts on YouTube." You know, they're just gonna shift.

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And big media companies, they hire departments, they have union issues. It, they, it's just very hard to shift. Yeah, and that's the part that I think is gonna be interesting in the year to come.

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I mean, y- already this year we've seen instances of, you know, well-known people departing, you know, whether it's at the Washington Post or is it Jen Rubin and Norm, it's Norm Eisen- Right...

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are, are splitting out, and some of that is that, you know, billionaire backlash which you talked about. We can talk about that in a little bit. Ashley Vance is going out, like, on his own.

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Piers Morgan is like [laughs] you know? He's, he's a YouTuber now. Um- Yeah. I mean, all the... Megyn Kel- Kelly is killing it, SiriusXM, and Tucker Carlson is on his own, and I, I mean, I think a lot...

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This is what I hear from talent agents.

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They're all saying to me, people who represent TV people, they're like, they want to go to the companies like yours where they can develop their own audience, where they can be in touch with 21st century modern products.

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Because it's not that... You know, TV used to be super glamorous, but the inability to, you know, reach people where they are in a digital era has made people nervous for their sa- safety and security.

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And I say this as a, as a TV contributor. Yeah. Uh, i- it's, it's a real concern. Well, the salaries also are coming down because they, you know, [laughs] when the ratings are smaller, like, I mean- Yeah...

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but everything gets compressed. And so, like, you know, YouTube looks more attractive if you're taking, like, a 40 or 50% haircut. [laughs] Yes. At least that's my theory.

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Yes, but you know what's interesting, Brian, is if you can do the direct to consumer thing well, you can make more money. I mean- Yeah... I, I look at what Oliver Darcy is doing.

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I think he's doing a fantastic job with his subscription newsletter, and I think it's be- I think it's very commercially successful as well. Yeah.

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And that's a testament to if you take the risk, sometimes the reward can be even better. Right.

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That's why I think, you know, this year is where, you know, sort of, quote, unquote, "mainstream media," institutional media, whatever you wanna call it, sort of comes to terms with alternative media.

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What do they take from it? What can they learn from it? You know, you don't wanna go too far in the direction. Like, I don't think, like, everyone needs to be an internet personality, God forbid, right? Yeah.

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[laughs] And I think you gotta, you gotta, you gotta play to your leverage and your strength. And if you're a journalistic organization, like, don't overthink it. Like, your, [laughs] your strength is- Yeah...

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journalism. Like- Yeah... you know? Like, let's, you know- Yahoo's doing a good job. ESPN, I think, is doing a pretty good job. Yeah.

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You know, so they, they struck the Pat McAfee deal, and then they brought on Shams from The Athletic. Yep. And, you know, when I interview their executives about it, regardless- Stephen A. Stephen A is a big personality.

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Stephen A, exactly. They, they'll tell you, like, "We don't fully have this fleshed out on what a talent contract looks like for someone like Shams versus, like, a, a TV producer."

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You know, it's, it's, or, or like a pr- a d- a d- a digital reporter. But they recognize that they can't overthink it, and they just need to get these people in the door and start creating products around them.

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I think you're gonna start to see a lot more of that. Yeah. And you think about, like, how different this is. That's a great example.

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Because if you think about how different this is than 10 years ago, five years ago, I mean, like, Bill Simmons was being, was being sidelined because, uh, uh, he popped off about Roger Goodell.

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Then you go to, like, recent, like, Pat McAfee, like, went after Norby Williamson like crickets. Norby then ended up, like, you know, shuffling towards the door.

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It's like, there has been a, a, a, a bit of a power shift, I feel like. And- Yes... you know, these organizations, all of them are gonna have to figure out how they, how they, you know, incubate...

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I don't know what the word is. Uh, like, journalists hate the word talent, I feel like, 'cause it sounds very, like, I'm gonna be in my trailer, kinda Hollywood thing. [laughs] Yeah.

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But if anyone has a different term for it, all ears. But they're gonna have to figure out a way to accommodate their talent. Like, I mean, for instance, like, The Washington Post, you know, what are they...

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They're doing... They're, they now have, like, a talent unit. Like, a, I mean, some of this is just, like, on, you know, is just, like, semantics and whatnot.

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Um- Yeah, I mean, my view on that is do really good journalism, and the rest falls into place. Do you need to put a little bit of effort in to be multimedia efficient? Yeah. Yes.

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But I think the, the number one focus should be the journalism, and you know this better than anyone, Brian.

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There's nothing more cringey when someone is trying to be, in quote, "talent" or a star, but they don't have the goods to back it. Oh, yeah. Like, that does not work. Yeah.

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No, the, the, you need to have, you need to have s- I hope you need to have substance, like, right? Like, I mean, there's, there's ways to have...

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I always said, like, you know, personality and, and that kind of thing are like side dishes. They're not an entrée. Yeah. And this is not a tapas restaurant. Or if- [laughs] Kerri can probably [laughs]

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attest that I regularly tell people this is not a tapas restaurant. We need main dishes for stories. Yes. We don't just need a bunch of little sides. [laughs] Totally.

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The thing that's hard, though, I will say, as somebody who's trying to be multimedia, and,

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uh, uh, uh, each, every single journalist has to create their own menu of, if you will, and we don't all have s- good skills across all platforms. Yeah. So I'll give you a good example of that.

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I am personable, and I love to hang.But I'm not, like, witty. I'm not, like, funny. So me, I'm not gonna be one of those people that builds a huge audience on threads 'cause I have h- good hot takes.

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That's just not my vibe. I'm also not somebody who's, like, good at taking pictures, so, like, you're not gonna see me crush it on Instagram. But can I post a scoop with a good hashtag on LinkedIn?

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Yes, that is where I can thrive. So it's like- Yeah... I g- I, I lean in where I know I can. I'm good on stages. I'm bad on podcasts even though you, you... I don't know why you invite me back, but thanks, Brian.

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No, you're, you're very good on podcasts. Don't- Oh, you're kind... sell yourself short. You're kind.

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But, you know, it's like you kinda, as a journalist, have to figure out what are the places where you can shine and where you can't. Because if you try to be everything- Yeah...

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everywhere all at once, you'll learn nothing to no one. Yeah. That's like the... It's like the personal peanut butter manifesto. There was this, like, famous memo that Brad Garlinghouse wrote when he was at Yahoo.

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Now he's at, he t- he runs Ripple now. He's in crypto. But he wrote a- We all go to crypto.

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Yeah [laughs] during, like, Yahoo, like, right when it was, like, sort of falling apart and beginning to fall apart, he said we're like, we're like a piece of bread that where you smear the peanut butter, like, so far to the edges it becomes, like, almost like you can't even taste it.

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And- Mm... you know, I think people can, can, can fall into that trap. But let's talk about, like, how you see...

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First of all, do you think that we'll continue to see, you know, talent, whatever, well-known people, like, like, leak out to these, this independent path? I mean, like, Substack, I went back.

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You know, it's almost been five years from when Ben Smith wrote that article about, like, how...

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It was, I think it was his first column with The New York Times about how, you know, The New York Times was, like, you know, very, had a lot of trepidation about Substack, you know, stealing their, their thunder.

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Now, that didn't really happen, but, like, Substack has continued to, like, sort of, you know, attract people. Paul Krugman is on there now. Nate Silver went over there.

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I mean, there's, there's a thriving ecosystem there. I mean, there's some parts of Substack I don't totally like as, as a, as a person who left there.

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But, you know, and then you, Beehiiv is, is, is, you know, they've got Oliver Darcy over there and, and a few others, and, and they're gonna look to build up this kind of thing.

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But then, like, you know, YouTube and people just kind of piecing it together. I mean, is this... Do you think this, this has further legs this year? I do.

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So I think what's happening is people develop brands while they're at these big institutions, and then once they reach a critical enough mass where they feel confident, then they can move over and go independent, and the risk is not as big.

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They know there's an audience that the- will come follow them.

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And so the calculation you have to make is, one, like, am I going to be doing enough things that I wanted to do that I couldn't do previously to make it worth it?

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Two, am I going to be making enough money to sustain my salary? And if you're independent, you know, paying for health insurance and all of those things.

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And then three, do I have the resources I need to do the right journalism? I think- Mm-hmm...

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that third consideration is a big one because I know for me, as someone who sits in a newsroom, having access to Mike Allen's brain, having access to newsroom lawyers, having access to colleagues who have specialized, you know, sources in other areas- Yeah...

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is q- that's what fuels what I do. So for me, I, those are all things I'd have to weigh.

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But if you are somebody who is willing to make, has evaluated those trade-offs and willing to make the risk, you now have the option. Like, the, the difference, Brian, is that people didn't used to have the option.

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And then the other thing I'll also say about this is it used to be that if you were a journalist and you lost your job, you went and you freelanced for other news organizations. Mm-hmm.

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Now I find what's happening is if you're a journalist and you lost your job, you can get ano- another job in a, a more sustainable field.

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Like, you can go into PR and still write a Substack, or you can go and just write books and do paid speeches and write a Substa-stack and make money that way, and that's a sustainable career.

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That didn't exist like 10 years ago. So now people have more options, and for a lot of folks, that's actually more attractive than going to another newsroom that might do another round- Yeah... of layoffs in a year.

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Exactly. I mean, I, I just like the... I couldn't agree more because all the paths that were seen to be sa- safe and safer have become almost more perilous, to be honest with you. Yes. Like, I mean, there's- Yes...

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a lot of trade-offs to, you know, going out on your own and hanging out a shingle. Like, running a business is a pain in the ass, I don't care [laughs] what anyone says. Well...

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And there's just a lot more uncertainty, but at the same time, not a lot of certainty. Like, these people are cutting people nonstop. Like, and- Yeah... so, like, I... Like, if you want certainty- And-...

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this, this ain't, this ain't the place for you. [laughs] Yes.

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And there's another thing that's happened in the Trump era that's changes the calculus, which is an organization that was once perceived as sort of prestigious and uniform- universally admired now has become mired in politics in ways- Yeah...

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that could damage your ability to do good journalism and sourcing. An example of that would be, I think that, you know, for example, The New York Times does excellent journalism, gold standard journalism.

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However, it is harder if you're working there to get Republicans to take you seriously and to talk to you because of the way that that publication has been demonized in the Trump era. It's just no question about it.

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So now, as a journalist, you have to make considerations based off of the reputations that legacy media has. And I think about these next four years. Mm.

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It's gonna be very hard for some of these legacy media organizations to get the same kind of access. Not saying that you need, necessarily need access to do great journalism, but, I mean, it helps.

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If you think about it, all the CEOs going down to Mar-a-Lago to take meetings, knowing who's going into Mar-a-Lago requires you to have sourcing in Mar-a-Lago, access- Yeah... to Mar-a-Lago.

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So the, I, I do think it's a tough time for mainstream media as well, given some of those political dynamics. And speaking of the political dynamics, I mean, how...

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When it comes to alternative media, so, like, the, use the, let's just use manosphere in some ways, like, the, this collection of podcasters, YouTubers, a-Independent writers, upstart publications like, like Daily Wire, like it, it seems pretty clear that, one, they're very male, right?

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I think that's why it's called Manosphere. Two, they're more conservative, more in a-- than, than, than mainstream media, right?

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They're-- we're in a period of both populism and I think a, a, a cycle where we just-- the, the, the populace has moved right.

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I mean, I didn't- I mean- I wasn't- The, the exit polls- I was alive during the Reagan sort of revolution. Yeah. But I wasn't, like, super astute into politics 'cause I was, like, seven. You hate to see, Brian.

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We've gone over this. [laughs] No, but you're, you're totally right. Like, it-- the election proves this, you know.

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Like, the vast majority of US states shifted to the right, and I do think that the media personalities that are ascending reflect what you're saying, especially because if you think about the main social discourse platform for a long time, which was X, is now owned by Elon Musk, and a lot of the changes that he's made to the platform intentionally elevate those types of perspectives.

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But I also think that a lot of the trust has been broken with mainstream media, and as a result, there's an audience thirst for these types of voices. Like they're- Yeah...

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not just you-- you're not just willy-nilly becoming big for-- because they're, you know, close to Trump. It's because people want their point of view.

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And there's something about-- there's something to be said about what the mainstream media, uh, should learn from that.

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I think for one, uh, no, no matter what, any journalist, anyone who considers themselves a journalist, needs to be truth-based and fact-based.

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But the way you deliver it needs to be done in a way that has deep respect for all perspectives, and I think that has been- Yeah...

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something that the mainstream media didn't quite understand up until this last election how much that matters. Yeah. And it's a tough lesson to learn.

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I mean, it's, it's, it's presentational, but it's something kind of deeper, I, I believe.

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Like, the, The New York Times actually had a good piece, I think it was today, I don't know if you saw this, like, it was masculinity podcasts and, like, Trump voters, and they, they had-- you know, it was, it was neatly packaged, but it, it-- they had basically a focus group, mostly of, of middle-aged men, [chuckles] to be honest with you.

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But one of the questions they had asked the focus group was, "What builds trust in the people you listen to regularly?" Because- Mm-hmm...

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you know, they asked, I think there was a group of 12, okay, and they asked, "Do you consider podcasts one of the main forms, one of the main ways that you get information about the world?"

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And 10 out of 12 raised their hands to this. And then the follow-up question was, was this about what builds trust in the people you listen to regularly.

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One of the answers was, "It has a lot to do with common sense," right? A lot of what's- [chuckles]... in newspapers and the drive-by media, it's just not common sense facts there.

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And then I was like, "Okay, I can kinda see that." I mean, sometimes I read stuff and I'm like, "Mm." But the other one that I think was really, um, kinda spot on was John, 45, from Pennsylvania.

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"I'm looking for hosts that approach a topic out of curiosity."

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And I think that is something that a lot of times people wave around, like, authenticity a lot, and I'm like, I don't-- it's really hard to say what-- does that mean you can-- you sometimes say offensive things.

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But I think curiosity is what it is, and it's just sometimes it's real or perceived curiosity, right?

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Like, 'cause sometimes I believe that people perceive that the mainstream media has arrived at the decision, and they're just assembling facts to, to, to support that. Do you know what I mean?

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And like- I couldn't agree more... with Joe Rogan, I think a lot of people have tried to, like, understand what is the appeal here because, you know, y-you listen to him.

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Look, a lot of people who are, like, highly educated will listen to Joe Rogan and be like, "Really? This? [laughs] Oh, God."

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And I think what it comes down to is he's, you know, genuinely, at least he presents as genuinely, like, curious about things and about how things work and why they are.

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Now, sometimes that leads into the just asking questions [chuckles] kind of stuff that all of a sudden you're like, "Did we land on the moon?" But- [laughs]...

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you know, I do think that that's a good point to take, really.

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A hundred percent, and I'll say what trips me up all the time, it's hard for me a lot of times to have personal politics because when you're genuinely curious, you can very much see, especially on policy matters, the benefits and challenges to many different points of view.

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I feel this way all the time when I'm covering, like, media policy with the FCC.

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I can 100% see why somebody wants to prioritize one thing if you're a Democratic commissioner and another thing if you're a Republican commissioner.

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The problem, Brian, is that in the era of big traffic and clicks on Facebook, the media industry became- Yeah...

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addicted to the hot take because that was what fueled that type of engagement, and I don't think that we have been able to wear that muscle down.

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I think we're still stuck with, "Okay, what is going to be the hot angle that can get people's attention?" And typically, it's a hot take, and that's an opinion that you're trying to backfill.

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And if we were more focused on curiosity, you might not get as many of those, like, very clicky headlines, but you can have more interesting conversations.

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I think podcasts too is a good medium for having interesting conversations and being curious. It's really hard to do that in 280 characters, where for a long time that's where the media business got its traffic, right?

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It's teeny little snippets of text.

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So if, if we're moving into new mediums, like podcasts, that can allow for longer form conversations or St-Substack, right, like independent newsletters that can allow for a more conversational type of text or even video, like YouTube vlogs, there should be a, a, a room for more sort of like curious dis-discussion.

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And I do think that some media companies do it. I think I love what Lulu Garcia-Navarro's doing at The New York Times. Mm-hmm.

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That's essentially just, uh, you know, a podcast where she's interviewing people about, you know- Yeah... answering interesting questions.

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But overwhelmingly-These, a lot of media companies, they are perceived by average Americans as just trying to get clicks, big headlines, hot takes, and it is, at this point, a huge turnoff.

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And also, let's not forget, there's such a huge trust problem that even if they're not trying to do a hot take, and that is genuinely the truth, at this point, people just don't believe it. Yeah. Yeah. What is your...

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What, like, how do you think?

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'Cause I think, like, some, like, when, when we talk about alternative media, a lot of it is, like, smaller, and there's so many different advantages in that they don't have what you were describing before.

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They, there's, there's a massive apparatus that is involved in publishing, and, and most of it is, is, is really needed, right? Like, I mean, the apparatus, I often miss it. Like, it, it saves- [laughs]...

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you from yourself sometimes. Sure.

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There's all kinds of things that, that happen in publishing that have nothing to do with actually producing the content, even though I'm biased, I think producing the content's the most important job.

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But, you know, I think, you know, when you have a different, like, cost base and when you go independent, it just, it's tremendous. There's just so much advantage. You can not only, you can move faster, like you said.

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You know, you're, you, you don't, you're not carrying these, like, massive, like, costs that a lot of these companies are, are trying to unwind.

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Now, we're seeing some people who you either, like, stay super lean and just, like, focus on margins and have, like, great businesses.

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Like, there's tons of people on Substack who have, like, amazing businesses and basically have no costs outside of the, the 10% to Substack and, like, 3% to, or whatever, 2% to Stripe. You know, and that's, that's great.

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Like, those [laughs] margins- Yeah... like, work really well. But there's others who wanna build, like, new public, new, new media companies, like Free Press, and what is your outlook?

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'Cause I'm interested in how they end up building these companies. Free Press seems like they're going on a very traditional path, if you ask me. But- Yeah. Well-... I, I'm interested in your take on that.

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Look, every matter in the universe starts with one atom, so everyone has to start s- small to an extent, right? And the question becomes, how big do you want to get a- i- in relation to your goals?

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So if you're somebody who says, "I want a reward, I want a, a payout, but it doesn't...

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But I don't need to be the next great publishing executive that's changed the world," then I look at businesses like Punchbowl, like the Ankler, like Payload, like the Rebooting, where they are a niche, they are cost efficient, they reach a great audience.

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If any of those businesses decided to expand out from where they were, you know, if Punchbowl wants to move from congressional news to doing greater lobbying in Washington news, if the Rebooting wants to move from, you know, marketing digital media to also take on a little bit more of tech, if Ankler wants to move from Hollywood into really getting into culture, and people, and music, and all those types of things, you all have developed enough trust that you have license to expand that way.

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The question becomes, how big do you expand before you sell or before you decide, like, this is where you would like to plateau and stay?

256
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And the decision you make will impact your legacy depending on what you want it to be.

257
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Like I said, if you wanna be the next great publishing executive that goes down in history books, you're gonna wanna expand it almost infinitely, right? Be a big media company.

258
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If you're somebody who, oh, man, like, "My, I got debt. My kids gotta go to college.

259
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Like, I just need a few million," like, s- go niche, sell it to a trade pub, get your few million, do your three-year earn-out, and then you can g- go do whatever you want.

260
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It just depends on, like, what your personal goals are and what you're trying to achieve. Where I see companies get stuck is when the founding teams and the management teams are not aligned on what that goal is. Yeah.

261
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And one person wants to sell, and one person wants to grow. That's where it can get really, really ugly. Yeah, BuzzFeed. That was the- It's a great example... John, John Steinberg wanted to, to, to- Yes.

262
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Really terrible... and John was right. He wanted to sell to, to, to Disney, and, and Jonah di- wanted to replace Disney.

263
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And, and by the way, one thing that's, uh, fascinating, with binary decisions like that, you, yes, you can aggregate as much data a- and educate yourself as much to make the best decision possible, but you will never know what would've happened if you made the other call.

264
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It's almost impossible. Yeah. And so there's always this, you know, hindsight is 20/20 vision type of thing when it comes to the growth.

265
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"Oh, if we had just sold now," or, "If we had just held out, we could've exited here." It's, it's a very, very difficult and delicate dance.

266
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But I do think the ones that are the most successful are the ones that have identified as a cohesive unit, as a founding team, we are all aligned and we want the same thing out of our exit, when that is.

267
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Either we want money- Yeah... or we wanna grow really big. Those are the most successful companies. So you, you've r- you've reported on Daily Wire, right? And this is- Yes...

268
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like, a really, this is one that's, like, really fascinating to me because they're, they're very ambitious as a company. Mm-hmm. Um, and- Yes, they are...

269
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they've got a lot of different business lines that I don't think, you know, regular people, like, fully understand, right? And, and they're under-monetized. I can tell.

270
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Like, I mean, [laughs] just, just by the, the people who are advertising.

271
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Like, I'll listen to, like, Ben Shapiro sometimes, and he'll just, like, you know, break in and start telling me about some kinda, like, prepper gear, you know? And I'm [laughs] like, "Okay, I appreciate the hustle."

272
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And, you know, every, I honor all revenue, Sarah. But- Corporate, corporate's starting to creep in. I will give- Yeah. Okay... the right-wing media that.

273
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In the Trump era, first of all, Republicans have been putting a lot of pressure on the advertising- I know... community. I heard, you know- That's why they're super well-positioned. Yes.

274
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That money that would always be going not just to Axios and Politico and stuff, like, that's gonna start to go to these, like, more conservative MAGA sites. Correct.

275
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And if the audience is there, then it absolutely should. And when it comes to someone like The Daily Wire, they do have a very clear vision.

276
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They want to do entertainment, and they, the problem with entertainment- That's crazy... is that it's a low-margin game. Like, production is really, really expensive.

277
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But they see a world where the biggest game out there, especially for kids entertainment, is Disney.And there is no real conservative alternative.

278
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So they found a white space, they are going after it, and I also think what they had done very well is they grew this massive audience on, on Facebook through paid acquisition.

279
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That massive audience helped them build the massive podcast audience. That once- Mm.

280
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-the Facebook distribution became less relevant, it was okay because at this point, they now have the podcast audience, and they're using the podcast audience to hawk this now s- the subscriptions- Yeah...

281
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to Daily Wire Plus. So they've been very, very smart and strategic.

282
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And I will tell you, Brian, one of my big pet peeves with, like, media coverage is there's so much attention sometimes on, like, the big three cable news networks, or the big three broadcast networks, and the legacy media companies, and the big papers, but bec- people don't wanna explore sometimes the partisan media because it's partisan or because it's private.

283
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And to me, that's where some of the big, big media opportunities- Yeah... are coming from. You know, even Rumble just raised hundreds of millions of dollars quietly, like, a couple weeks ago.

284
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I mean, they're publicly traded, but that is a story that didn't get as much pickup and attention as I would've expected, and it's huge. [clears throat] So there's a lot of those kinds of examples- Yeah...

285
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that I think are gonna pop back up. I mean, that's an example of like, honestly, like, a, a lot of the sort of the echo chamber to some degree. Yes. Because it's like, you know, we all...

286
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Like, I love Puck, but we all read Puck 'cause that's like we probably give it more attention than it, like, you know, because that, that's always been the case.

287
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And I think that's where I think the, the election was a needed, like, sort of wake-up call that there is an alternative media, you know, system that is not being built, it's built, and it is continuing to grow.

288
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And some of it is MAGA media, some of it is, like, MAGA-adjacent media. Like, I don't consider- Christian media is having a moment. Yeah.

289
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I will tell you, Brian, this is why I'm so passionate about this membership, because we wanna create scoops, insights, reporting that caters to business decision-makers that need to do-- make decisions off of sound, sober insights.

290
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And to me, sound, sober insights means you don't let your personal opinions about any of these companies impact your ability to describe their business success or failure.

291
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That is, I think, the- what's been really missing for a lot of people in this industry.

292
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If Daily Wire is valued at well over a billion dollars, which I reported, that is something that a lot of institutional investors want to know and need to know. Yeah.

293
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So we wanna provide them with that information, but I think you're right, a lot of traditional reporting has kind of shied away from elevating that because they tend to do reporting sort of amongst themselves.

294
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And, and, and, A-and, and that's, that's valuable as well. It-- we just-- we kinda need to go a little broader. Yeah. No, I, I, I completely agree.

295
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And I think, you know, these-- I think these companies will get a lot more focus this year because, you know, just the way things are going, like, pressure exists everywhere, and the pressure on ad budgets are it-- they're going to move into this area.

296
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It's just an easy choice. There's a reason. Look at how much money Trump has been banking in this inauguration [chuckles]. Unbelievable. Like, they're not-- they don't even have perks to give people.

297
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They're like, "Yeah, thanks for your million dollars. You get nothing." Like- [laughs]... I mean, that is just the way it works.

298
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And, you know, if, if your choice as Group M or someone else is to get hauled before [chuckles] Jim Jordan's, like, whatever commission he has going on, whatever hearing he's gonna have, or if it's to, like, CTC to cut the check, you're, you're just gonna CTC.

299
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Like... And, and, and it is kinda catch up, you know? There is a lot more, you know... There, there's a lot of audiences there.

300
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The reality is the, the mainstream media has lost a, a large portion of, of the, the populace, and those people are actually getting information. It's just, it's from different places at the end of the day.

301
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Last thing I wanted to get your, your take on, because, like, I'm trying to overcome, like, an addiction to X. Like, what- [laughs]... what is your [chuckles]... Where, where do you see X go?

302
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I mean, I would love to you, you to say, like, you can safely ignore it, so I never have to open it up again and see, like, another fight video or something about some i-immigration outrage in Europe that has nothing to do with me.

303
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[laughs] Sorry it's happening or whatever [chuckles]. Like, good luck dealing with it. But I kinda feel like he i-in some ways pulled this off. Totally pulled it off. And I, I'll tell you, I, I rely on X.

304
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I like X, especially if you're a sports fan. I know. You know, you're still gonna go to X for most of your live sports insights and award shows.

305
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I'm going there for updates on what's happening and who's watching the re- walking the red carpet. It's still the primary social discourse- I know... app in America. But I can't do my little snarky tweets.

306
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I used to be able to do little snarky tweets that got lots of likes about, like, sports and, like, little, you know, things. But- And what? And you can't 'cause they're just not getting engagement?

307
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Ah, so there's no point. It's, it's, it's all, like, it's all, like, outrageous.

308
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It's funny 'cause I, I miss that part of it, and there still is utility to it at, at particularly, you know, during, like, the NFL playoff games and whatnot. But, like, I find, like, posting there kinda pointless.

309
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Well, I think that the market will always adapt. So if somebody like you feels like that platform can no longer serve that need, other platforms will rise to serve the need.

310
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Whether or not they can build enough traction to actually grow to serve an audience is the big question. I think you're gonna see more niche platforms serving niche audiences.

311
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For example, Blue Sky, Blue Sky is, like, now the platform for journalists. That's what it feels like. Threads feels like it's the platform for sort of everyday people who don't wanna talk about politics.

312
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X is still the place where people go, as you said, for current events and outrage. So- Combat... I... Yes, combat. Spun-driven- I agree. And I-... combat.

313
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[laughs] I, you know, I actually think that X's biggest challenge is going to be that technologically speaking, they, they laid off so many people that there's just too many kinks in the platform that they have to get through.

314
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For example, if your account gets hijacked, there's no customer service. You're never getting that account back. That's actually a serious problem for them- Yeah... if they wanna grow their business.

315
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So I, I, I think that there's gonna be room for alternatives. I don't know that anyone's gonna, you know, unseat Elon, especially if he gets his hands on TikTok, although I'm very skeptical of that.

316
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But I still use it, and I also was never an X hater, by the way.

317
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Like, all these people c- w- and, and maybe it's because I've gotten to know Linda Yaccarino very well, and I kind of understand their vision a little bit, but there were so many people that were saying likeYou know, this is unusable, and this is whatever, but they were saying that on X, right?

318
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They were still- Oh, yeah... posting it on X. So I've tried to never come out swinging hard and say like, you know, "I'm not using this, and this isn't gonna work, and this isn't great."

319
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But what I do think is if they can't address market needs, which are both product, right?

320
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Like, again, it's a huge issue if you get locked out of your account and you have no way to get it back, or if you feel like it's not secure or it's not loading well.

321
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A- and if they can't address engagement concerns, if people don't-- can't feel like they can build community like you were just saying, then people will go elsewhere, and they're gonna have a problem.

322
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For now, though, there's just not a quite a good elsewhere yet. It's interesting, like I-- 'cause I think my issue of it was, was more like it was too good. It was too addictive. Like, it played to...

323
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Like, it's my weakness. It's [chuckles] like, you know? And it played to my weaknesses. I, I would always... I would compare it to, like, menthol cigarettes. I mean, I don't smoke.

324
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[laughs] But if I did, like, menthols are not good for you, and I would just find that I would get pulled into too many directions.

325
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'Cause, like, I wanna use it to, like, you know, for media news, like b- like, I want to use it for that.

326
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But I, I feel like it's, it's made to sort of pull you into rabbit holes, and for those of us who have weaknesses, [chuckles] like next thing you know- Well-...

327
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it's like three hours later, and I'm like, "What newsletter?" [laughs] Well, I mean, I hate to say this, but that actually means that they are improving the product- Yeah... because- That's scares me...

328
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they need to be working on engagement. And for you, that rabbit hole might be media news. For somebody else, that rabbit hole might be sports news.

329
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I think the bigger challenge that they are s- get-- struggling with as a user, the discovery is not great.

330
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When I go to search something that just happened, uh, it used to be that it was very easy to navigate the most recent tweets about it.

331
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Uh, something has changed, and it's harder for me to figure those types of things out. So it's a less useful tool- Yeah... as a journalist for research for me. But, you know, they are private now, Brian.

332
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So one of the challenges is I can't actually get an estimate, a real number of what that in- sort of engagement looks like. There are tons of third-party estimates, you know. Yeah.

333
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Of course, Elon debunks all of them, uh, that suggests that engagement has gone down. But, you know, it's still, if you ask Similarweb or Sensor Tower or anyone else, it's still far more- Yeah...

334
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engaging than any alternative that's tried to unseat it. But I would say it's arguably as influential, if not more influential now than, than it was, and that's like, you know...

335
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Engagement is one thing and, like, reach and, and whatnot. But ultimately, most media, not most media, but a lot of media is about influence and, and particularly influence, like, when it comes to power.

336
00:51:49.928 --> 00:52:01.528
And- It c- it comes down to what the in- the in- owner wants, though. And you're right, Musk wants, Musk wants influence. But if- Yeah... if you were measuring success on financially, is this doing well? It's not.

337
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No, but, like, he's playing a totally different game. Like, so- Exactly... and I think that's, that's also... And, uh, we could go on forever, and I'll let you go.

338
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But, like, you know, a lot of, I think, the challenge of a lot of this alternative media for mainstream media is the business models are completely different. Not only- Yes...

339
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if you have, like, an incredibly low cost base, but think about something like the All-In podcast. The- they don't need to sell ads.

340
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I mean, they'll do their little, like, you know, events or something like this, but they're an incredibly influential media property. Like, very influential, right? But they don't have the pressures. They don't have...

341
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They draft off of the, the mainstream media that they, that they complain about nonstop. I mean, they're the ones doing the reporting to f- to give them fodder to sort of draft on top of.

342
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I mean, I do some of that with you.

343
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But, like, I mean, the, the reality is, like, that is a really difficult challenge for, you know, journalistic media to deal with, and that's why more of it is going to go behind paywalls, and that's why you gotta sign up for, for Media Trends Exec.

344
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What is it? Media- What's the name of it again? Media Trends Executive. And I will just say the one thing, thank you, Brian, for being my hypef- my hype man.

345
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The w- there is one challenge though, which is media companies, the way that they were traditionally designed, were to be agnostic of sort of the reporter and to have systems and infrastructure in place to continuously cover a beat or cover a, a d- put out information well.

346
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With some of these podcasts, they're one personality driven. What happens when that person gets sick? What happens when that person wants to retire? Yeah. What happens when that person gets too old or dies?

347
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There goes the brand. Brand goes with it. Whereas mainstream media companies, they are brand first to ensure that the brand doesn't die with the person. And that is kinda crazy if you think about it. Yep.

348
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I, like, love catching up with you wherever you ever are in the world. [chuckles] Okay, Sarah, on that note, thank you so much. I really appreciate you taking the time. Always fun. Thanks, Brian.

349
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I hope you let me come visit in Miami where it's not super freezing like it is here- Absolutely... in D.C. [upbeat music]