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[upbeat music] With OffBall, you don't wanna get into original reporting. It's... This is not it. No. It's, it's about- No... smart curation. Yeah.

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And it's also we're not gonna cover anything controversial or negative because we're not journalism. We're entertainment. We're a fun place to come and see all the cool things that you wanna read about.

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It's meant to be a lean-back experience. Okay, so no politics. No. There's a place for that. You remember that feeling we told you about when you go to Twitter and you feel terrible after? Yeah.

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Like, I would like to build something that when you go to it, you actually feel good after. It was fun. Yeah. It was enjoyable. So why, why, why use humans? Why not use robots? This sounds like a job for robots.

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That's the... You've, you've... I mean, I, I, I mean- [laughs] That's the easiest question ever. I, I still have yet to see a robot have taste.

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[upbeat music] Welcome to the Rebooting show. I'm Brian Morrissey.

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I can fall in a trap sometimes of gravitating to the parts of the media business that are in retreat, and, and let's be real, many parts of it are in retreat.

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But I think that sometimes obscures the fact that the media business overall is growing, only that growth is often shifting to different places with different models.

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The economic value of the news business, for instance, is shifting, but I can't think of a time when there was more news content, if only the most profitable parts tend to be outside of news reporting.

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There are plenty of podcasts with great businesses downstream of news reporting. The sports media industry is to me fascinating because it is going through a similar reorientation.

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Sports media has never been in more demand, and there's never been more of it. I, I think back to when I was a sports-obsessed kid in the 1980s, and the sheer volume and variety of sports content now is, is shocking.

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I can get dozens of podcasts on the Eagles alone. I mean, I can watch experts break down specific plays and explain why they worked or why they didn't work.

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I mean, teams themselves have media arms that, that pump out an amazing amount of content. I mean, Hard Knocks takes you inside of discussions that the teams have.

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I mean, I can hear John Mara's dread at losing Saquon Barkley to the Eagles.

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Athletes themselves are media entities, and the sports media business overall has broken out from being a category itself to being one that, that stretches across many different categories, business, culture, music, fashion.

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And I think in the atomization of everything, sports is something of a last bastion. It even acts as a unifier really.

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I mean, I spent the weekend in the Philadelphia area, and as a battleground state, you are subjected to endless political ads.

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Billboards along the Pennsylvania Turnpike I noticed tend to alternate between Trump and Harris. I mean, it's inescapable. I mean, I really pity those of you in those seven states.

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But I'll tell you this, I mean, all that falls away when it comes to the Eagles, a-and that is why I think why sports is so valued right now.

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I mean, they're one of the last unifying and shared experiences we have left, as we've all retreated into some digital ghettos to experience customized realities. I can't see how AI doesn't make that worse.

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So this week I spoke with Adam Mendelson, who has for a long time operated at this nexus between sports, media, business, and culture.

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I mean, Adam is a longtime advisor to LeBron James and LeBron's business partner, Maverick Carter.

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Adam is a communications advisor to many athletes and many companies, and he's recently rolled out his own sports platform called OffBall, and it's something of a throwback to a pre-algorithmic era when the Drudge Report and other curators reigned supreme instead of algorithms.

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And I'm a big believer in things moving in a pendulum. We tend to have, you know, overreactions, and then we course correct, and the m-momentum keeps going forward.

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But I think we're in store for a recalibration right now as the downsides of this kinda algorithmic dominance are acutely felt, and I think Adam has a really good viewpoint on that because of his background.

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So we discussed the changes to the sports media landscape, including why LeBron's widely panned show, The Decision, was actually ahead of its time.

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I go into my own little mini-rant about why s- about why sports betting was a major mistake. It's my most deeply held Boomer position.

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Hope you enjoy this conversation, and also please leave this podcast a rating or review wherever you get it. Always helps. And I'd also love to hear feedback on the type of guests that you enjoy hearing from the most.

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My current inclination is to focus more on what's working in the media business versus having people discuss the stuff that's wrong. That could become a bit of a trend. Anyway, here's my conversation with Adam.

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[upbeat music] Adam, thank you so much for, for joining, joining me. I, I'm told- Thank you for having me... I'm told by so- Thank you... I'm told by sources this is your first ever podcast. This is my first podcast.

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I, I have deliberately tried to be, uh, behind the scenes my whole career, and so yeah, this is my first podcast. But it's also, you know, I'm launching something.

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I felt like I didn't wanna go out and talk to a lot of people, but I wanted to talk to a few people, and so I'm, I'm, I'm excited to be on with you. Oh, okay, good. Well, I was...

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[chuckles] I thought you were gonna be like, "Well, they weren't available." [laughs] That old joke. [laughs] No, no, no. [laughs] No, like if we're, you know, like, again, this is...

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When you're, when you're doing something, you know, you realize you and I... Look, you and I have known each other a long time. You realize there's... And this gets to actually the sort of conversation we're gonna have.

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Like, there's just media now that reaches a certain constituency, and I think when you...

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And as someone who spent his career working on communications and, and how people reach different audiences, I, I think a lotta now...

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a lot now about how different people reach different au- I mean, your newsletter this morning was exactly that point. It was, it was- Yeah...

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about how, you know, the All In podcast or Lex Fridman are creating new models of, of media, and I think that's, that is 100%- Yeah... where I think it is. And I think that's true for you and the Rebooting.

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I think that, you know, when I think about what we built, I think about your audience a lot. Yeah. All right, cool.

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Well, first of all, I think there's a lot of people who know you who, who listen to this podcast, but some people don't, and they, they should. I don't know.

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I was joking with you before, like, I consider you an operativeRight? So you got your start in politics, right? Uh, operator- And then you moved over- Operator or operative? [laughs] No.

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Now you're an operator, but I thought... I think of you as like an operative. You're a behind-the-scenes guy. Yeah. I mean, look, I- How do you describe what you do?

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When you go to, like, you know, a dinner party, 'cause you advise LeBron and, and, and Rich Paul, and you've got... You've popped up on ESPN stories. I always like, sometimes- Yeah... I'm like, "Oh my God, there's Adam."

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Yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, look, I, I think about myself as a media and communications professional. I think that, you know, the long story is I, I started my career in politics.

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My last political job was with Arnold Schwarzenegger when he was governor, and I, you know, I, I thought I wanted to be Toby Ziegler. I thought I wanted to be, like, you know, the White House Communications Director.

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And then when I got into politics, I realized that I didn't, I didn't like politics. I, I found it to be... Well, I guess what, what everybody's seeing now, I, I sort of found politics to be many years ago.

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And so after working for Arnold, Arnold was incredible, and he exposed me to entertainment and culture and business, and I realized I wanted to do media and communications, but I wanted to do it in, in culture and business, not in politics.

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So I really started at that point figuring out what that looks like, and then by the grace of God, LeBron James famously had the decision, and after the decision, he was trying to think about a different way to- Wait, did you do the decision?

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No, I came in after. [laughs] Okay. So he was, you know, he was, he was thinking about how to... He was thinking about media and communications different, as LeBron is apt to do. LeBron thinks about everything- Yeah...

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different. And his... I got introduced to LeBron by Paul Wachter, who's his longtime partner and, and has done all of his business deals.

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Paul introduced me to Maverick Carter, and built a relationship with them and, and have been with LeBron ever since, so was with him for 12...

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I've been with him 12 years, and worked with him and Maverick on a number of different things. And then, so while I've been working with him, I was, I was doing a bunch of advisory work, working with CEOs.

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This is sort of the internet, I guess, 2.0 era, the kind of Uber, Airbnb, rise of consumer internet, was doing a lot of work in that space, and then went to TPG, the global private equity company.

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And at TPG was doing their communications, but more importantly, sort of worked as an operating partner in, across their portfolio.

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So where there were companies that were having particular communications challenges, I would drop in and work with them and, and work with the management teams, and work with the CEOs, and with the head of communications on, on strategies.

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And, and that, through that, I realized that's what I really loved doing, was working with management teams on communications and media, and then started my own company.

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So I have a company called Upland Workshop, started in 2020, started March of 2020. Good time. The first day I, first day I paid myself was March 1st, 2020, and that's what we do. We have a...

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It's a small advisory business, and we work with a number of different companies on, and then getting back to your original question, on their media and communications.

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And that, I think the, the most interesting thing is, well, what does that mean, right? What is, what is PR now? What is communications now? How are people thinking about it?

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And I, I spend all my time thinking about that and working in that space. Yeah.

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So give me your theory of the case, 'cause, I mean, you have been entwined in, in these worlds of government, sports, media, but, but, you know, media is the nexus.

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And like you said, like I wrote today about All In and Acquired- Mm-hmm... and how media's not dying.

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It is changing, and the power is shifting, in, in my view, in most areas from a lot of packaged media to a lot of individuals, for instance. And this is not new.

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I think it's funny 'cause I asked you about the decision, and for those, some people probably don't even remember the decision. [laughs] No, probably not. It's so long ago. Probably not.

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It's probably- But it was, it was a live show that LeBron James did- Yeah... to announce where he, he ended up going to, taking his talents to South Beach, famously, and it got completely panned, right?

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Because at the time, this was very strange. And if you think- Yeah... about it now, that's going direct. I mean, that, this is like- Yeah, yeah... this is like a no-brainer. It's not a strange thing.

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What, you wanna control your narrative. Well, yeah. I mean, sometimes it's control your narrative. Sometimes it's just a better way to do it.

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I mean, I, I, I'm not a fan of like I'm doing it 'cause it controls my narrative. I'm, I'm a fan of doing it 'cause it's a better way to reach it, but, but yes, sometimes. But- Yeah...

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to your point, for those- But what is your theory of the case about how media is, is changing and shifting? Well, my theory- 'Cause I think that'll lead into what Off Ball is. Sure.

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My theory is that there's two things that really matter to an individual, to a company, to an organization, and there is customer acquisition.

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There is I need you to buy more of my product, and then there is your corporate narrative or your positioning or your reputation, and that is this is who I am, this is why I matter, this is why you should pay attention to me, this is why you should invest in me, this is why you should think about me.

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And I think that the world, as more and more media get, as me- media gets more and more bifurcated and more and more niche, how you manage sort of the difference between customer awareness, customer acquisition, and your narrative and your positioning becomes more and more complicated, and that's how you have to think about media and communications.

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Okay. So how, how does that intersect with, with sports, right? So 'cause sports, and let's just zero in, in the sports because, you know, sports is, is obviously, it's, it's been the linchpin of media.

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But now I think it's be- it's more powerful than ever with its intersections with, with business, with culture. Yeah.

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You know, I mean, I think about, you know, this is, this is pretty old, but I can remember, you know, when the, the walk to the, the locker room became sort of the run, the runway, [laughs] you know? Yeah.

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I, I mean, I remember when, when, you know, David Stern was fining the players for, [laughs] for dressing like slobs- Yeah... in his view. [laughs] Yeah. That's totally different now.

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There's no need to fine people for not looking- [laughs]... really good [laughs] in the NBA. No, no.

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Look, I think there's so many reasons why sports has become so ubiquitous and so important and, you know, and I think that everyone has probably had this conversation over a drink, but it's, you know, I, I, I think sports is now, and, and s- and athletes are now what celebrity and music was in a, in a generation before, and I think that-Part of it is athletes have really asserted themselves as cultural figures.

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I mean, I think LeBron has been one of the leaders in that. It's basically saying, "Look, I'm not..." I mean, he famously said, "Shut up," You know, "I'm not gonna shut up and dribble."

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Like, they're more than just going out and playing basketball and then going home. Like, they are, they are in front of everything. So I think they've made themselves more culturally relevant.

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I think they're, the demand, the people love sports, you know, at a level that is far bigger.

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The leagues have gotten much sexier in terms of how they present, and F1 Miami and Super Bowl and, and then, you know, not to mention it's, it, sports is sort of the last place where everyone gathers together.

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Like, in a world of- Yeah... streaming, in a world of there's no more appointment television, like, you get together for the US Open final. You go together to F1 Miami.

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So sports as a platform is, you know, incredibly dynamic to advertisers in ways that I think very few other things can be right now, and you're seeing it. Yeah.

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And I think also, you know, look, I, there's, I, I think particularly, like, in the, in the NBA, I mean, there's, there's usually a player in one generation who defines it, right?

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It was Michael Jordan before, and, and I think it's obviously it's been LeBron.

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And I think, you know, LeBron, it seems like he's, he was from the very beginning very business-oriented with Maverick Carter and building his own business, whereas before it was, you know, endorsements a- and, and whatnot.

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And I think that's a major change because I, when you look at a lot of the top players now, they almost all have, like, media entities, right? Yeah.

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I mean, look, I think that, first of all, LeBron is the smartest, most thoughtful, sophisticated person I've, I've been around. I mean, Schwarzenegger was as well.

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I mean, I've had the privilege of being around both, and these are, like you say, he came in as a businessman.

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Like, LeBron was, LeBron has always been very serious about his business, what he does, his, his profession, his basketball. There's a reason he's playing this long at this level. It's just, he's just, he's...

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I'm in awe of him all the time and his work ethic and what he does. So when you say he's been serious about his business, yes, he's been serious about his business.

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He was one of the first athletes to go out and create a production company. He was one of the first athletes to, you know, to wear haute couture, uh, down the runway.

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Like, he's been the first in a lot of things and been very influential. It has led to more and more athletes thinking about the businesses they wanna build while they're playing.

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I think one of the big innovations LeBron had was he was like, there were athletes who were doing this sort of thing, like, when they retired.

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LeBron was one of the people that was like, "I'm gonna do this while I'm playing." And so that's changed a lot. Not to belabor this, but getting back to the decision, you know, as you said- Yeah...

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for, for people who don't know, the decision was when LeBron famously, you know, declared that he was going to Miami on live TV and everybody went crazy because it was sort of like, how dare he do this?

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How dare he have a show where he announces it? That's now not, it's, it's not, that's not a big deal anymore. Yeah. [laughs] That's a- It's like a different era...

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I always told him, even from day one back then, that I thought it was visionary.

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I was like, "Well, this is where the world is going," but people just weren't ready for it, but he broke that down and now, you know, high school kids are doing it to announce where they go to, where they're gonna go to college.

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So LeBron is, I mean, again, I can't, I can't say enough about his impact on sports and, and me personally. Yeah. But do you think, 'cause obviously a lot of other players followed a, a similar path, right?

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You know, being investors, starting their own, like, production companies, media companies. Yeah. Is this- Yeah... overall, 'cause I mean, you're going in a very different direction with Off Ball, right?

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It's very personality driven. There's a lot of leverage- Yeah... that comes with celebrity obviously. I end up wondering, usually these trends are overdone, right?

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I mean, is this one of those things where there's gonna be a lot of athlete-driven media entities that do not actually go very far? I mean, look, this will get into Off Ball.

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Like, I, I, to me, everything is the, and I learned this at TPT, to, to me, everything's the business model.

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You know, I think that it depends on the athlete, it depends on the opportunity they have, it depends on the creativity of pursuing that. I think the idea that...

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And by the way, production company is a vague concept, right?

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If I'm, if I'm a big athlete, if I'm Victor Wembanyama, and I wanna start a production company, and I just produce my commercials, my videos, my movies, then that's a production company.

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If I'm Victor Wembanyama, and I wanna, I wanna start a production company that covers every single, you know, new young player coming out of Europe, I'm gonna raise money, I'm gonna hire an operating team, and then that's a different thing.

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Like, it, so I'm still very bullish on the opportunity for athletes to build their businesses 100%. There's a million... It- and it's gonna get bigger and bigger and bigger.

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The issue is how they build it, how they structure it, and how they think about the, the, the scaling of it. But they have- Okay... have all the influence in the world, right?

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And, and to your point, like, you might say, "Oh, are we, are we past, you know, all these beauty brands that were started by, you know, famous young women like Kendall Jenner? Like, are we over that?"

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No, there's always going to be people who wanna buy beauty brands- Yeah... from global icons. It's just how you do it. Yeah.

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I mean, you can build your own distribution when you have, when you have that kind of celebrity. And- Right... and look, you see what the, the, the Manning, the Mannings have done, what the Kelces are, are now doing.

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100%. And so that's, it's, it's pretty powerful. So talk to me about, about Off Ball. I mean, we talked about it a little, I think, you know, several months ago when you were sort of getting- Yeah...

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you know, planning this out. But what, what was the inspiration for it? What did you see missing in a very crowded sports media landscape? You know, I saw two things.

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I felt like the appetite, there was so much great content and stories and narratives about sports culture. Put aside, like, it's just, it's so compelling, right?

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Taylor Swift and Travis Kelce, and Lewis Hamilton, and LeBron James, and all these characters, and they're starting companies and, and people love it.

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And then you have, you know, you looked at the NBC, the Olympics, you know, and you looked at how the influencers were covering.

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It's just, it is such an incredible space and, and the, and the best content is just sort of everywhere. It's on TikTok, it's on Instagram, it's stories, it's podcasts, it's YouTube.

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It just was everywhere, and there's so much of it.So discovery became something really interesting to me, and then the flip side is the area's so popular when you go to social, the experience I was finding and when I was talking to friends was, was becoming more and more problematic.

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It was negative, a lot of toxic stuff, you know, as we all know, the internet, like, the internet regresses to what's controversial, what's, you know, negative, and I just found that there were so many people that were enjoying this content, and then the discovery experience was so broken, was there s- a different way to think about it?

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And I was particularly fixated on aggregation.

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Aggregation is really problematic in sports media, and by aggregation, 'cause people will look at OffBall and say, "Oh, that's an aggregation site," and I'm always quick to say, "No, it's a curation site," and we can talk about curation in a minute.

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Aggregation, and it's very problematic in, in sports media, is, you know, Bill Simmons goes on a podcast and says X- Yeah...

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Y, and Z, and then a whole slew of, of internet sites or social media sites take what he says, chops it up into the most controversial way possible, and then floods the internet with it.

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So as a consumer, you're sitting there and you're just overwhelmed by the aggregators- Yeah... and not really seeing what, what did Bill Simmons actually say? Did I get the context? Did I understand what's happening?

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And as someone who's on the other end of it working with companies and brands and athletes, I was constantly like, "Well, this isn't what he said. This is wrong. This is misleading," and it just felt, it felt broken.

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And I was like, "Well, what would it look like if you tried to fix it?" And that was sort of the genesis of OffBall. Yeah. I mean, it's a little bit of a throwback. I mean, I don't mean it in a bad way, right?

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Because I think- A lot... things are, are, are changing a lot, and I think we've reached peak algorithmic feed, and, you know, I think that's highlighted by my addiction to Twitter [laughs] 'cause I go on there- I-...

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and never feel good about myself... I mean, you know this as well as I do. It's like eating a big b- it's like eating a big, like, tub of, of popcorn. I've never felt good a- afterwards. [laughs] Never.

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That's, that's my sort of- I feel the same, Ross. Like, I'll be watching a football game and I'm terrible about picking up and going on Twitter, and every time I do it, my head hurts. I feel- Yeah, yeah...

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to your point, I feel like I, I feel like I ate something I shouldn't have ate. It's just terrible. Yeah.

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I want the old Twitter of, you know, people talking about the game, and next thing I know, I'm, I'm hearing they're eating the cats. [laughs] Well, and I think- So-...

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I think we're, I think it's gonna get worse before it gets better, but... And that was the other reason not to, I, I, not to sound, like, I really...

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The thing about OffBall that I'm feel great about, and we'll, you know, we'll see ultimately what happens, is I feel like we're trying to create something. Mikaela Hammond is my co-founder- Mm-hmm... and she's amazing.

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She- we've worked together. Her sister plays for Angel City. Her name, her sister's Madison Hammond, and she's been amazing, and she's an incredible co-founder, and she's so tapped into women's sports and culture.

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She really is a bigger part of OffBall than myself. But I feel like we're at least giving people something to look at and say, "Hey, maybe, maybe there's a different way to do it," and maybe that's overly- Yeah...

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optimistic, but I, I think we have to start finding different options. Yeah. But this is not, like, a- it's not algorithmic. There's no AI... There's not an AI wrinkle, which is how I know- There's six kids...

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you didn't raise any money for it. [laughs] We, we've raised almost no money.

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That's, I mean, the business model's another thing, but there's, it's cra- there's four kids, they're amazing, young, young people, I shouldn't say kids, young people.

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They all came out of sort of sports journal, and they're Business Insider and TMZ Sports, and they're literally just going around the internet all day, every day, finding stuff, and then bringing it to the home page and to the newsletter, and curating it, and putting some personality around it.

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It, it is...

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And the other thing that's really important is it links, this, this is why [laughs] it was so hard to raise money 'cause every time I told people I was doing it, they were like, "Well, that's not gonna work."

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[laughs] It links directly to the, it li- it links directly to the source, right? So if we have- Yeah... a Bloomberg article on, on the home page, it takes you straight to Bloomberg, and then the paywall comes up, right?

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The journal. So people are like, "Well, you're taking people straight- Yeah, no one would do that... to a paywall." Yeah. But- No, you wanna use AI to scrape the content, and then- Well, I just-...

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and then put it on your own site... I was like, "But that's..." Yeah, and I was like, "But that's bullshit." Like, I, I- [laughs]... I, it, my...

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First of all, I think people are accustomed to going through their stuff and hitting a paywall. I think that's a, that is a consumer experience we all understand. I don't think it's...

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I, I think there's ways to do it that are not, you know, genuinely problematic.

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And at the same time, like, okay, if I find myself going to Bryan Morrissey's thing four times in a row, I'm gonna subscribe to Bryan Morrissey's thing. Like, that's, that's how this is supposed to work.

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It's not supposed to work that bots scrape my work, throw it up on the internet, and then, and then all that time and energy I put into it is, is going to people in the w- for free and the wrong way. Yeah.

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So that is the curation versus aggregation thing, 'cause it used to drive me nuts in my last company when Business Insider would aggregate our story, take one juicy quote out of it, maybe do a slideshow or something, bank 5X the page views we would 'cause they had bigger distribution, and it took them, well, I don't know, 10 minutes, and it took us [laughs] 10 hours.

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And I'm like, "That, this, this is misaligned incentives," I used to say to, to, to Henry, and he would say that, "Oh, you're just an events company with a website."

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And I think what's gonna happen is, you know, and this gets to why OffBall, you know, I mean, you know, I've been involved in Puck and couple other of these. Yeah.

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I, I think that, and you spend more time thinking about this than anybody. Although I will tell you, I read it, I read your wife maybe more religiously than I read you. Okay.

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[laughs] And I think your wife- I'll take that... the, what your wife covers, and you might wanna explain it, is actually more... OffBall's inspiration, I think, comes more from your wife's- [laughs]...

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outlook and what she talks about than you. And don't, I hope you don't take that the ri- the wrong way, but she- Not at all. Not at all. [laughs] Do you wanna explain to people what your wife writes about?

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Is that- No, so my wife's actually been on this podcast. So her name is Ana Andjelic, and she is a brand executive. She was, uh, most recently the chief brand officer at Esprit.

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She'd been the chief brand officer at Banana Republic. And she really writes about modern, modern luxury. Uh, and she's, that is, like, incredibly popular.

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It's more popular [laughs] than my newsletter, which I'm very good about. Anyway, it's called The Sociology of Business. She has a new book coming out called Hit Makers. That's my little commercial for Ana.

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And she's great at it, 'cause she understands, she's, she's very rigorous.

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You know, she has a doctorate, and she is very rigorous about how she views, you know, the changing modes of, like, luxury and culture, and the intersections.

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What she-Really influences my thinking around and helps me think a lot about is, is the importance of brand as an emotional product and, and what it means for brand to operate at a deeper level, what it means to think about audience.

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Like, she just... I, I find her... I know it's primarily about luxury, but I think it's true for any company. Her writing is applicable to any company where they are, they're focused on building a brand.

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They're not focused on just, you know, my hamburger is $1 and your hamburger is $1.50, where it's like you're- Yeah... you're trying to build something that stands for something, and she's, she's really thoughtful.

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I mean, it's the only way you get lu- you get, you get leverage, right? I mean, everything- Totally... particularly, the internet is the great commoditizer of our time, right?

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And it is, you know, the, the old Jeff Bezos, "Your margin is my opportunity."

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If you look at what technology has done to, to many industries, but I think this is just overall, is it has eliminated a lot of those competitive advantages that a lot of traditional brands, whether they're media or otherwise, have, you know, subsisted on.

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And so, you know, I think the changing natures of what is considered luxury is amazing. Like, I, I, I... So I think it's a, a fascinating topic. But so how does that inform, like, what you're doing- OffBall?...

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with OffBall? Well, okay, so, so the, the first half of it was, all right, well, what's missing? What, what... Oh, and by the way, I should mention one last thing about OffBall.

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It is, the term I'm using is unapologetically optimistic, and what I mean by that is, again, you know, sports internet tends to be inherently negative and toxic, and I think that people wanna celebrate sport.

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Wait, does it? Wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait. Well, I mean, look, I, I shouldn't say inherently. I should say there's a lot of toxicity or there's a lot of negativity around sports internet.

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I mean, if you ask people- Yeah... about, like, NBA Twitter, like, you know, if LeBron... I mean, I'm, I'm very close to this. I can tell you 90% of the things when LeBron does something- Yeah...

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there becomes a negative conversation online about it 'cause it's just sort of what ends up happening. Okay. Well, yeah, that's, that's... And I think- Yeah... by the way, also, I think gambling has made that far worse.

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I mean, I feel ba- I mean, the players are getting, like, you know, if not death threats, close to death threats just by this. I'm, I'm not into the gambling thing. I think it was a major mistake, but that's me. Yeah.

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I mean, I, I understand. Again, I think that I, I love it. I love my fantasy. I love texting my friends. I love... I love it, but I'm not a, you know, I'm not a gambling addict. I don't, I don't...

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Like, I'm not li- I'm not sitting there getting angry because this player didn't hit the over because I got $9,000 on it. Yeah. I just... Right? Right. That's, I mean- Right... it- it's perfectly fine.

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I'm, I'm sure you're not a degenerate gambler or something. But it, it, there are a lot of people... And look, sports is, at its best, it's a great emotional re- release and stuff.

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I grew up a Philadelphia sports fan as many, and I still am, as many people who listen to this podcast. You know, Joel, Joel Embiid's my client. We wanna, you wanna get into some Sixers basketball?

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[laughs] I would love to have Joel on, on the podcast sometime. But [laughs] okay, well, look- I don't think... I mean, he'll talk about the Sixers. I don't think he's deep on, like, ad tech. Okay. But we can try.

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[laughs] Oh, that's fine. We can talk header bidding, we can talk wh- whatever. [laughs] But you know, look, I grew up a Philadelphia sports fan. I went to the Eagles games in the 700 level.

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I know, I know how the emotions of sports can go in bad directions sometimes. Mm. And I think- Yeah... I think that can, I think that feeds over, is it's the...

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All the strengths are usually your weakness, and I think the passion for sports combined with the algorithmic incentives for conflict can lead to, like what you're saying, that kind of toxicity.

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So and I think, I think we're seeing a lot of media that is being created that i- is purposefully, I don't wanna say enthusiastic or optimistic about the areas that they're covering, and I think it, it, it's, it's an interesting trend.

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I mean, I talked about this in my newsletter today because, you know, look, the knock from a lot of the capital J journalists of, you know, an All In or even an Acquired is, oh, it's just a bunch of softball interviews.

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That's why Elon Musk, it's a safe space for billionaires. And, and look, there's lots of different ways to do things.

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The adversarial journalism has an important role in our society and in our media ecosystem, but it's not the only thing. Yeah. I mean, I, I agree with that 1,000%. And I could go on.

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We could have a very long conversation about sort of the role of journalism because I, I do spend, I still spend, I've spent my whole career working with journalists, and I still spend a lot of my time working with journalists, and I have very...

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I believe journalism is critical, right? So sticking with the Elon example, like, I... You're right. A- All In is a place for Elon to go have a conversation. That's really important.

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I also think that there should be more respect and more time spent answering questions from The New York Times, answering questions from The Wall Street Journal. It doesn't, it's not an either/or.

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Like I, like I said earlier, like, when we started the SpringHill Company, which is LeBron's company, we started with this thing called Uninterrupted, which was like athletes were going direct. Yeah.

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They were filming themselves on videos. And, and a lot of people went into like, "Oh, this is just so that they can work around the journalism. This is so they can..."

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LeBron, NBA journalists will tell you, LeBron is one of the most accessible. I mean, he doesn't do a lot of interviews as much anymore, but in the locker room, he's always talking to the media. He's always engaging them.

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People, it's not an either/or thing. You, you need to do both. Yeah. There's a role for sports journalism.

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There's a ro- there's an important thing LeBron has to do with them to help them do their job, but also to help them cover it.

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And, and then there's equally an opportunity for LeBron to go do a show like The Shop and talk to his friends about the stuff he wants to talk to them about. Yeah. Like, it's not- But even like-... it's not binary...

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even, you know, I go back to, like, what he did with J.J. Redick for, for J.J. Redick became- Yeah, yeah, the podcast?... the Lakers coach. Yeah, I mean, that is a completely different form of media.

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I'm sorry, I don't care- Right... who the journalist is. You know, they're not gonna have the same level of conversation, and that's not gonna be for everyone. That went real deep.

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I mean, that's like, you know, the header bidding- Yeah... of NBA. [laughs] Yeah. And- Right...

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it's not gonna be for everyone, but that is a totally different thing than the, you know, the i- if it bleeds, it leads, you know, the controversies that, you know, talk radio is obsessed with.

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And everyone has to get their quotes and, and do their job. It's not like an either/or, 'cause I like both.Right.

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And I, I think where people have a point is when you start using these sort of alternative, you know, whether it's the All In podcast, and you start to say, "Well, that's the only version of communications I'm gonna do- Yeah...

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and therefore I'm not going to talk to journalists. I'm not going to answer questions about, you know, this, this, and this, and this." You, you have to- Yeah... and I think we, the- I am concerned about this.

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I, I don't think people truly appreciate the importance of journalism, and I'm not, I'm not trying to sound precious about it. Like, it's, it is really important that there's a vibrant journalism.

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Like, the, the breakdown in local news is a real issue. Right.

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And where this is heading in the wrong direction is when people say, "Well, I'm not gonna go talk to these journalists because I'm just gonna go do this podcast." Yeah.

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People have confused it with what you and I are saying. Yeah, I think particularly in, like, politics and those areas, I mean, I think it's... Look, we see it with the presidential candidates.

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I, you know, I think it's really interesting to, to listen to, to Trump talking to Theo Von versus, you know, Trump a- again- Right... shouting back and forth with Jake Tapper.

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I think that there's, there's room for both. I appreciate at least that, that he does both, right?

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I don't think that h- doing no adversarial interviews is really good for a presidential candidate, no matter what their positions are. I just don't think it's good.

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But I think that you find out different measures of a person, and that is normal. We wanna know who people are, right? Yeah. Agreed. And a lot of times that happens through conversation.

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And look, I mean, since we're on the topic, I think that executives have a responsibility to participate in journalism, and I think journalists have a responsibility to do their job in a way that is also highly ethical and based on sort of objective truth.

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I think that, again, I'm around this all the time, and I have this conversation with so many of my friends that are from journalism. I've had this conversation with people who've started journalism companies.

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But I think there's a problem happening right now where you have communications people who are like, "Well, we don't need to talk to them. We'll just go on these podcasts."

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And you have journalists saying, "Well, they're not gonna talk to us, so w- we're just gonna call them with four minutes to go and say, 'We need an answer right now.'" Yeah.

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Or, "We're gonna build an entire story off of anonymous sourcing, questionable anonymous sourcing." Like, there are...

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The dynamic between how we think about ethically, e- how journalists and comms people work together, not together as friends, but together as people who are committed to this work, this being done the right way, like, both sides are breaking down, and it, it's, it's- Hmm...

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it's very problematic, and I, and, and I don't blame either one. I just think we have to start to sort of try to get back to a place.

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Like, when I came up, prior to social media and all that, like, when you worked with journalists, there was, there were things that you, you were operating by a different set of rules, right?

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Like, if a journalist came to you with something, and they had gotten it, and they gave me a day to f- come back to them with a response, they also didn't have to worry that I was gonna go give it to a friendlier journalist 'cause I was gonna go front run it, right?

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Or- Oh, well, they're gonna front run it on Twitter now. I mean, that's, that's the- Yeah. Yeah. Or, but, but- And it creates bad incentives, like bo- on both sides, right? It's like- It does, right...

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when you get burned by that as, like, a journalist, you're like, "Not again." Right. "Every again." You get worse. Or you don't lie to them, right? I mean, there was just, there was just a whole...

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And again, not to s- I sound like a crazy old man, but I mean, it, it is [laughs] that- We both do... that s- [laughs]

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That system was important, and, and I understand why comms people are like, "Well, I'm not gonna c- talk to that reporter," and I understand why reporters are like, "I'm not gonna call that comms person," and that's not healthy.

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Right. So you're, you're not, with OffBaugh, y- you don't wanna get into original reporting. It's, this is not it. No. It's, it's about- No... smart curation. Yeah.

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And it's also we're not gonna cover anything controversial or negative.

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Like, the other day when Tyreek Hill was pulled over by the police, like, really important story, really important story, we didn't cover it because... And again, cover it is a bad term.

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We didn't, we didn't put it up on the homepage. We don't cover anything because we're not, we're not journalism. We're not trying to be The Athletic, where people come and get the story. We're entertainment.

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We're a fun place to come and see all the cool things that you wanna read about. We're meant to be... It's meant to be a lean back experience.

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It's not meant to sort of, like, become a place where people inform themselves. Okay, so no politics. No politics, no, no crime, no... No, I mean, it's just there's a place for that.

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There's plenty of places for it, and, and, and I think that gets to sort of something that, I mean, to your point about as places get more niche and figure out their audience, like, I, we wanna do something where when you go to it...

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You remember that feeling we told you about when you go to Twitter and you feel terrible after? Yeah. Like, I would like to build something that when you go to it, you actually feel good after. It was fun. Yeah.

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It was enjoyable. So why, why, why use humans? Why not use robots? This sounds like a job for robots. That's the... You, you, I mean, I, I, I mean- [laughs] That's a really funny- That's the easiest question ever.

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I, I still have yet to see a robot have taste. I don't know. I, I, I... It's not... Look, I think there's a purpose, and of course there's gonna be all this incredible... I'm not, like, anti-AI.

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I just think, I just think when I'm thinking about what I want in my information diet, I would rather interesting people are helping me find fun stuff than some robot is jamming me with what it thinks I want in my algorithm.

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Yeah. I, I see my algorithm. I don't wanna see... Ha- whatever the robot has decided I wanna see, I don't wanna see. Yeah, I just wanna control the algorithm on, on X.

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I mean, just because I, like, clicked on something one time, I, getting flooded by it- Oh, God... is- It's the worst... it's just, it's really bad. It's the worst. I mean, I think I d- I did one fight video.

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I mean, come on. It was a mistake. [laughs] I don't know. It was late at night. It sucks. But I do not- Yeah... need to see people beating each other up nonstop. No, you clicked on- It's ridiculous...

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I remember I clicked on, I think this was the day I was like, "Okay, I got, I, this, it has to be better."

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I think I clicked on, like, one, it was, it was, like, the London, it was, like, the show Travis Kelce was at with Taylor Swift, her London show, and I clicked on maybe two of them, and I, the entire feed- Yeah, that's it...

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for me was that.I mean, him in that Gucci bucket hat, I, I'm like, "I don't need to see this again."

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[laughs] So I do think we are gonna see a return of human curation because the, the need that, and maybe I'm speaking to my own specific need [laughs] is I actually still find X, like, incredibly vital to what I do with keeping on top of a lot of things.

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But the problem is I have to wade through. I feel like I'm in Shawshank Redemption, except there's no end. You know? [laughs] Yeah. You remember that escape scene [laughs] Yeah. Where they go through the sewer? Yeah.

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But he came out the other side. I don't come out the other side. That's my problem. [laughs] It's still essential. Twit- I mean, yeah... I mean, X- For sure...

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to me is, like, when you, when that period of time when Trump was almost assassinated and Joe Biden dropped out, and I, I just, I couldn't- Yeah. It's nuts...

246
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and not to get into a long conversation about X, but this is really the most... It's interesting. It's so interesting, like, that, that it's still so critical.

247
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It's still so much a part of everybody's lives, and it, you know, as a business what it could be.

248
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I mean, it's just, it's, you know, I mean, I, I dare you to f- come up with an example of something that is still as essential but over-indexed so towards the opposite of what you would think about in terms of how it could become a really healthy, vibrant business.

249
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Yeah. It is true. That could, that could be a whole different episode. So how are you gonna make money off this? Ads. Good question. [laughs] So two things.

250
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One is I've learned that everything, as I said earlier, everything starts with a business model, right?

251
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So if I had raised $30 million and I was like, "This is going to go become, you know, an $800 million company," like, this would...

252
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And actually it gets to an important point, which is the tension between the need to scale and the kind of consumer experience you can create in a business like this.

253
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Like, I, I continue to believe that the pressure to scale puts negative consequences on how you're thinking about your product and your consumer experience. Longer conversation, we can get into.

254
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But, so when people go to, obviously it's, it's advertising, right? We're never gonna, we're never gonna charge for the homepage because it's, you know, we're, we're, we're curating other people's work.

255
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The thinking around it is, and I started this conversation by talking about the importance of reputation, the importance of narrative.

256
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I think about, and this is, this is contrary to how people think about building these businesses when you're raising money.

257
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But, you know, your, what you talked about today, how the All In podcast is, they're hosting a conference.

258
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They're, they are at the center of a, of an idea, and they're able to think about how to take that idea and think about business opportunities around it, right?

259
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So we're looking at advertising, but when we think about advertising, it's not a consumer-facing advertising strategy, right?

260
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You're not, you know, Hyperice, or I should say Crypto.com did an ad on our site, and Crypto.com, we worked with them actually because they're one of the leading sports marketers in, in the world, maybe the most, right?

261
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They have F1 Miami. They have UFC. They've got, they have the patch with the Philadelphia 76ers, your team. Yep.

262
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So they did an ad with us which is about, like, just them thinking about sports, how important sports are to them.

263
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And what was appealing to them was the idea that they could work with us to reach a sports-focused audience about the value of sports to them. Totally bespoke.

264
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You know, I don't know if they'll use the ad in other places, but they, they saw the, the opportunity with that. So in many ways, the company is a little bit more of a creative studio than a publisher.

265
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Not a little bit more, a lot more. Mm.

266
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And we think about, how do we create something and then give brands and people a place if they have a story to tell relative to sports culture that we can become a place that can work with them.

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And then we're talking to a lot of creators now, so that's one of the things I'm really excited about is there's all these great creators that are out in sports and helping brands think about them.

268
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N- again, not as a consumer-facing enterprise, but more as a, as a brand-building enterprise or as a reputational enterprise.

269
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So we're, we're in the early stages of, of really trying to understand what this can be as a business, but I will say the DNA is, is more as a, a brand studio or as a, a community of advisors to a company versus a publisher that is sort of saying, "Okay, look, we're gonna help you reach one million people at this CPM," 'cause that's not how we're designed.

270
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So let me ask you this. W- what is, give me one area of the sports media business that you are sort of bullish on, and give me one area that you are bearish on. Oof. Gosh, that's a good question.

271
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I continue to be very bullish on the ability to create, you know, the companies that are able to create the most compelling, what we'll call shoulder programming.

272
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I mean, if I said live rights, okay, no, everyone knows live rights is everything.

273
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But when you think about the SpringHill Company or you think about ManningCast or you think about some of the great work Words and Pictures are doing, who's run by Connor Schell, who started 30 for 30.

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You know, Skydance has got this deal with the NFL. I, I think that, you know, I think that there's more and more demand for the kind of programming that sits next to sports that's compelling and important.

275
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Again, everything to me is business model, so it's going to be the people who are sort of figuring out how to think about that in a new way.

276
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I was really interested in how NBC covered the Olympics, and I thought, you know, there was a lot of things happening with NBC and the Olympics that are really important.

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You know, the, they were able to, typically with the Olympics you would have to wait for tape delay in order to put up stuff, but on this one they were able to put stuff up on social in real time.

278
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So the, the, the kind of impact NBC had by merging their social strategy with their live strategy was huge. And, and then how they leveraged Snoop and how they leveraged Alex Earle and- Mm...

279
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you know, I, I just, I really thought NBC did an incredible job of showing the world what, what sports coverage can be going forward. What am I bullish on? No, no, bearish. We gotta go- Oh, yeah...

280
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we gotta go to bearish. We're more bearish. I was like the bullish is- More bearish...

281
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is easy 'cause this, look, look, there, just to set this up, the reason I ask this is there's a ton of money going into, to sports right now- Yeah... for a bunch of different reasons- Yeah... we discussed, right?

282
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And anytime there's a ton of money going into, [laughs] into stuff, it's gonna go into some areas that are, you know, it's just like AI, right? There's, of course there's gonna be a bunch of money, like, incinerated.

283
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I mean, this is a, on a much smaller level. But what, what's, what's an area where you think, "Mm, I don't see that panning out"?

284
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I think the one area-Is that I think I'm a little more skeptical about, although I, I, I'm not a venture investor, so I don't-- I say this just out of gut.

285
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There's a lot of, like, new leagues that are starting, a lot of sort of like secondary leagues, and- Everyone- I think some of them will work... everything's a league. Is there, is there a wiffle ball league yet?

286
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There must be multiple probably. I-- There, there probably is one in the, in the making. So you-- Yeah, you-- Look, I think there's a lot of excitement around some leagues.

287
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You know, I think, I think like- What about pickleball? [chuckles]... you know, there's a-- The, the sailing league I think is really interesting, and it's backed by Larry Ellison.

288
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I think there's opportunities around that. I think the, the golf league that Tiger's doing could be interesting. But there's also many, many, many, many leagues.

289
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There's a, there's a women's volleyball league that, that is also, I think, compelling. I think women's volleyball is really interesting as a, as a category.

290
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But I-- there's so many of these leagues starting, and, and again, I'm not gonna call one out that I'm bearish on, but I do think there's a lot of money going into these leagues, and, and, and I'm, I'm not sure.

291
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I, I-- again, everything I keep-- I say this all the time, like the business model is the business model is the business model, so maybe it will work, maybe it won't.

292
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It just depends on whether people over-raise and they, they make projections that are not realistic. Yeah.

293
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I've seen some of these decks, and when you start to, when you start to see meteorite deals, when you see leagues like putting meteorite deals that are like big numbers in like year two and three, you're a little bit like, well- Yeah...

294
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ESPN and, and that's the other thing- The big numbers are always in the out years. [laughs] Yeah.

295
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And then that's the other thing to think about, like, you know, like these streamers, you know, I mean, as we saw in-- with an NBA rights, like that market is changing.

296
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And so to think that these emerging leagues are gonna have massive meteorite deals is a little bit... 'cause the, the, the money's, the dollars aren't gonna be there. How about women's sports?

297
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A ton, ton of, of heat around women's sports- Yeah... overall, right? And, and there's a lot of compelling characters, particularly with Caitlin Clark and others.

298
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I, I know you guys are, are, are clearly, you know, focusing in on that. How big of an opportunity is this? Yeah. And, and what is catalyzing this now? I mean, women's sports have been with us for a long, long time.

299
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Yeah. First of all, you know, I'll call out the co-founder of OffBall, Michaela Hammond, who's been involved in women's sports for her whole career, her sister, like I said.

300
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But, you know, and also Alex Morgan, who just retired, just, you know, wanna sort of acknowledge.

301
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And I, I actually worked with Alex to start a company, another sports company focused on women's sports called Together, the E as in X. Started that with Alex Morgan and Sue Bird and a bunch of people.

302
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Jessica Robertson w- has been huge in that comp- or instrumental in growing it. So I've done a lot in women's sports, and I, I really like it and, and have spent a lot of time in it.

303
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I'm really bullish about the core women's sports, WNBA, NWSL, women's soccer more broadly. I think volleyball has a huge opportunity. I think there's a lot more growth in that.

304
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There's a number of reasons why, but I think the, the quality of those games are to a point now where people wanna watch it.

305
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The quality was always there before, you know, obviously, but the, you know, when I say quality, I mean the production, the investment, the marketing, the-- These leagues, for them to thrive, they require an entire ecosystem around it.

306
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Like the production has to be good. The announcers have to be good. The, the marketing has to be there. Like it doesn't just happen, and so you're seeing- Mm...

307
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now the money go into the things that these leagues need in order to get the ratings that will then drive all the growth. And so that to me is why I, I remain really high on it.

308
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I think that unfortunately, I think it was so underserved for so long, like the, the, the amount of growth that is available is significant.

309
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And, and, you know, look, the, the quality of play, at least in the WNBA, is just far higher than it was. I mean, maybe it's the same as, as, as the NBA. It just feels in- Well, that's true for the NBA.

310
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I mean, I, you know, I-- although I'm gonna get myself in trouble for, you know, I-- all the people that- Yeah, Charles Barkley's gonna come on this podcast...

311
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think it was better in, it was better in the '90s, but I- Charles can come on the podcast too. Yeah. [laughs] I...

312
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But yeah, and then, and then, you know, the, the, the characters, I, I'm just a big believer, like I'm-- I, I always talk about like sports at its core is WWE, right? It's hil- it's heroes- Yeah... and villains.

313
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Angel Reese versus Caitlin Clark and the-- But it's great. Oh, yeah. I mean, this is like, you know- It's like the characters, right?

314
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It's like you get caught up in the characters and like, and again, that's a plug for OffBall, like that's what we wanna be.

315
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We wanna help you follow all the characters and the storylines and the, and the husbands and the boyfriends and the girlfriends. Like it's just, it's all fun. Yeah.

316
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This is now, like I mean, I guess like in the, in the, you know, we're getting the sort of what, what are they called? Like WAGs, w- women and girlfriends. Yeah.

317
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This will be the flip side of that too, our, our wives and girlfriends.

318
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By the way, real quick, the other thing that I love, which is just so interesting and a, and a space we're trying to be really thoughtful about, is the interest amongst Americans in European sports, most notably F1 and football, European football, soccer.

319
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So there is m- more and more and more people, soccer in particular, which I really like, you know, and the World Cup's coming here.

320
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But I think about OffBall as a, as a way for people to follow the n- the storylines around F1 and, and soccer that are, you know, just, just the right amount for an American who's really interested in it, right?

321
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If you were a Brit and you were trying to follow the NBA, you don't, you don't, you wouldn't follow it the way Bill Simmons follows it.

322
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You would follow it in a little bit more of a way like, you know, there's only so much of, of time and energy you would have.

323
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So I think about how much people love soccer and, and F1 and, and can we be a, a gateway drug to those sports for Euro-curious fans? Euro-curious, I like that.

324
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You know, I, when I go visit my in-laws, like in Belgrade, I, I inevitably find myself watching, uh, with my father-in-law a handball game. So you can get on the ground- Handball, no... the ground floor with handball.

325
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It's never really taken off here, but it's, it's, it's very popular, uh, in, in parts of Europe. I tried during the Olympics. I tried during the Olympics to do the handball thing. I, I, I-- But you know what?

326
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Like honestly- It's kinda like basketball and soccer. It's a little- Honestly- Yeah... like if all of a sudden handball had like a David Beckham, it would blow up.

327
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If there was a character who was like a David Beckham-esque or Lionel Messi and, you know, and you were as interested in him as him or her as an individual, like that would help. Okay.

328
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Let's, you know, we-- you heard it here first. Handball's the new, the new breakout sport. One last thing.

329
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I, I sh- I also should mention that Chris Stone, who was the editor at Sports Illustrated for a long time and then at the LA Times, is overseeing the newsroom, and he's been, he's been fantastic.

330
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And, and ironically, Chris and I worked together on a really fun project, which was when LeBron went back to Cleveland, and he did the essay in Sports Illustrated. Oh, yeah.

331
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And so Chris- 'Cause that was like a little bit like he tacked back to the more traditional kind of thing, but it was, it was a little different. Great, great cover. Yeah.

332
00:49:36.452 --> 00:49:46.842
I mean, think about the, the-- how much has changed from, from when Chris wrote that, like, article and, you know, the cover of SI being used to say, you know, "I'm c- I'm coming home."

333
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It's very, it's just a very different, a very different landscape now, and I don't know. That's just how it is. Awesome.

334
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Adam, thank you for doing your first podcast with me, and let's talk about- Thank you for having me... getting Joel on here soon. [chuckles] I'll get him a primer on the, uh, Google antitrust case in the while. Yeah.

335
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Tell-- O-once-- Yeah. When the, when the Google case like, you know, we finally comes to fruition, we can talk about GAM and whether they're gonna split it off and all that stuff. Yeah. [laughs] Yes. Thank you. Awesome.

336
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I'm an avid listener, and I really appreciate you helping people kinda organize how everything's unfolding. Awesome. Thanks, Adam. Thanks, bud. [outro music]