WEBVTT 1 00:00:00.100 --> 00:00:09.500 [upbeat music] This episode of the Rebooting show is presented by Outbrain. Outbrain is a technology platform that drives business results by engaging people across the open internet. 2 00:00:09.770 --> 00:00:18.620 The company predicts moments of engagement to drive measurable outcomes for advertisers and publishers using AI and machine learning across more than eight thousand online properties globally. 3 00:00:18.660 --> 00:00:26.180 As the advertising landscape contends with signal loss, traffic declines, the emergence of closed loop attribution, Outbrain's offerings are particularly relevant. 4 00:00:26.260 --> 00:00:31.400 In this shifting environment, Outbrain provides advertisers with necessary tools to navigate these changes. 5 00:00:31.840 --> 00:00:39.440 The platform's technology facilitates advanced filtering and audience targeting, which are crucial for showcasing the value of news audiences to advertisers. 6 00:00:39.900 --> 00:00:47.240 These capabilities allow for the crafting of resilient and effective ad strategies that resonate with audiences despite evolving ad spending trends. 7 00:00:47.800 --> 00:00:59.480 Outbrain's role in this transformative period is to ensure that its partners can leverage these trends to their advantage, maintaining the connection between advertisers and the engaged audiences they seek. 8 00:01:00.020 --> 00:01:11.650 Thank you to Outbrain for your support. This is a Riviera edition of the Rebooted show. It's my favorite tradition. This is probably the fifteenth or seventeenth time I've been to Cannes. I meant to try to count them up. 9 00:01:11.740 --> 00:01:18.000 I went to Japan one year instead of going to Cannes. That was my favorite Cannes. I can remember the first time I came here when I was a reporter at Adweek. 10 00:01:18.020 --> 00:01:24.440 I mean, it was surreal for me at the time to think that I'd ever go to the South of France, and here I've been many times. 11 00:01:24.920 --> 00:01:28.820 That first year, I made the biggest of all Cannes mistakes by staying out far too late at the Gutter Bar. 12 00:01:29.280 --> 00:01:38.060 But, you know, I, I still got to the awards press conferences where a reporter would inevitably ask the jury to comment on the first bronze lions for Kazakhstan. 13 00:01:38.500 --> 00:01:42.940 Thankfully, I've retired from both the awards press conferences and the Gutter Bar. 14 00:01:43.460 --> 00:01:58.039 The following is a conversation I had at the Group M rooftop earlier today with David Kostman, the CEO of Outbrain, Kate Scott Dawkins, the Global President for Business Intelligence at Group M, and Joanna Mayer Jones, the CEO of The Washington Post. 15 00:01:58.100 --> 00:02:07.660 All week, I'm gonna view Cannes through the lens of whether this barometer of the ad industry, you know, what it says about the direction publishers need to go with their ad businesses. 16 00:02:07.680 --> 00:02:11.780 And in this conversation, we focus on the ad challenges of the news business in particular. 17 00:02:12.360 --> 00:02:24.660 And the numbers paint what to me is, like, just realistically a pretty bleak picture 'cause the ad problems that are happening right now at publishers are against the backdrop of a very buoyant and resilient ad market. 18 00:02:24.720 --> 00:02:35.740 Kate recently published Group M's midyear ad spending update that revised up their ad spending forecasts. And globally, the ad market is on pace to expand nearly eight percent. I mean, that is fast growth. 19 00:02:35.980 --> 00:02:37.959 In the US, it's five point eight percent. 20 00:02:37.980 --> 00:02:51.400 And that growth isn't really going to publishers for the most part, but it's going to, and, and stop me if you've heard this before, tech platforms, but also now to streaming services and increasingly a growing number of retail media networks. 21 00:02:51.480 --> 00:03:04.580 I know in Cannes, it is crawling with people from your favorite grocery store chains who are now in the ad business. And it honestly leads me to question the role that advertising should play in news business models. 22 00:03:04.800 --> 00:03:14.420 You know, the shining example of success remains The New York Times, and The New York Times ad business is shrinking. So what does that mean for publishers when they... 23 00:03:14.450 --> 00:03:26.360 and news publishers when they think about how to build these sustainable and resilient businesses? Appreciate you listening. If you are in Cannes, I hope to see you at some point along the Croissette. 24 00:03:26.400 --> 00:03:40.300 Now on to the conversation. [upbeat music] Hey, welcome to the Rebooting show. This is a live edition from Cannes. Thank you to Group M for hosting us here in this lovely studio. 25 00:03:40.730 --> 00:03:52.140 We're gonna talk about a very important issue today, which is the future of the news business when it comes to advertising. And to do so, I wanna introduce our panelists. First, David Kostman, the CEO of Outbrain. 26 00:03:52.500 --> 00:04:02.640 David, thank you. Hey, Brian. Thanks for having me. Kate Scott Dawkins. Kate is the Global President of Business Intelligence at Group M. Just came out with a big ad spending report. Lot of good stuff in there. 27 00:04:02.700 --> 00:04:09.780 We talked about this earlier. I wanna get into it because there was less good stuff when it comes to publishers. I hate to say that. [laughing] And 28 00:04:11.620 --> 00:04:17.160 Joanna Mayer Jones, Chief Advertising Officer at The Washington Post, which is not in the news at all these days. 29 00:04:17.240 --> 00:04:26.840 And so we're gonna talk about why this is that ads and news increasingly just don't seem to mix really well, and it's really important that that problem gets solved. 30 00:04:26.920 --> 00:04:38.680 So Kate, I wanna start with you because of your report, because this is, this is the data side, and it's good to have a grounding in, in data. When I got the report, I was saying, "Wow, this is great. 31 00:04:38.960 --> 00:04:49.500 This is great before Cannes." The ad business is growing, like seven point eight percent. You revised it up- Globally, yep, mm-hmm... globally. US? Five point eight percent. Five point eight percent. It... 32 00:04:49.600 --> 00:05:01.510 This is, this is all good news. A lot of up and to the right- Mm-hmm... in there. Out of home is up quite a bit. Obviously, CTV, streaming is up quite a bit. Yeah. Retail media- Retail's a big one, yep... massive. 33 00:05:01.510 --> 00:05:09.420 And then it went down, like, quite a bit. [laughing] And- I'm just loving the vibes now. [laughing] [laughs] It got to- I'm ready. It got to... Well, it's sunny outside, but not in here. No shit. 34 00:05:10.020 --> 00:05:16.960 [laughing] [laughs] So but then I got to, like, the publishing, and it was newspapers and magazines, the digital, it says. What, what, what did you see there? 35 00:05:16.980 --> 00:05:39.580 What- It is a little bit of a different story with print, and we've seen, you know, there very much the graph goes down and to the right as you progress in time, and it's because a lot of the features, things like classifieds that were a, a mainstay of the news are, are now more and more handled by digital platforms, which we measure, you know, some of those carve on or something separately within the digital piece of it, right? 36 00:05:39.600 --> 00:05:51.100 So those types of places have moved into the digital atmosphere. And so it's, you know, globally flat-ish or just behind inflation into this year and, and next year. And so there are h- holdouts. 37 00:05:51.160 --> 00:06:01.540 Uh, Germany and Northern Europe actually, where you have Finland's strong- Oh, yes... paper pulp exports. The Finns. [laughs] Yes. They lo- they love a newspaper. They do. I wish everyone was like the Swedes. 38 00:06:01.640 --> 00:06:08.370 They'll just subscribe to anything. Like- [laughs]... any sort of, like, report about- I know... like, subscriptions, the Swedes, the Danes- At the top... 39 00:06:08.400 --> 00:06:18.892 they're just like-They just take out news subscriptions and then go to their country homes and and make coffee [laughing] Is that what they- Actually, I think we can just finish there. Say, "Take out subscriptions. 40 00:06:18.902 --> 00:06:30.912 Go to your country homes." [laughing] But it is, it's a challenged environment, I think as, I think you you say in the report. And I wonder what, what... Joanna, I mean, you, you see it every day. 41 00:06:31.172 --> 00:06:39.152 There's a lot of blame to be put on keyword block lists, but obviously there's a lot of distribution challenges right now in news. 42 00:06:39.402 --> 00:06:50.802 I mean, at the end of the day, you need attention in order to monetize that attention- Mm-hmm... through advertising, and if the way attention is being measured via visits to a webpage are going down, then- Mm-hmm... 43 00:06:50.852 --> 00:06:58.872 your advertising is gonna be challenged. Mm-hmm. What... How do you diagnose what is going on right now in the ad market when it comes to news publishers- Yeah... specifically? Yeah. 44 00:06:59.392 --> 00:07:11.912 I mean, I think it's important to start with the fact that news is, is not a monolith, right? The, the, the news category encompasses lots of different verticals and areas of coverage. 45 00:07:12.012 --> 00:07:19.532 Everything from sports to games, to geopolitics, to obviously the elections, to community news. You know, you talk about print. 46 00:07:19.732 --> 00:07:32.252 We have a local print product that's really connected to the, the DC and sort of surrounding areas. Uh, and it's a very important part of that community life. Is it our fastest growing product? No. 47 00:07:32.692 --> 00:07:41.492 But I do think actually when it comes to our print product, we, we buck some of the trends that the industry is seeing. But this is not a, a print conversation, this is a broader conversation. 48 00:07:41.572 --> 00:07:55.192 So let's start with the fact that the idea that news as a category encompasses everything feels a little antiquated, and that if we're really to build a healthy ecosystem for the news business, which I also think we can all agree on, right? 49 00:07:55.232 --> 00:08:06.312 We all agree that we need trusted journalism as a, a fundamental part of a democratic society. I mean, I believe in that. I believe that you believe in that. Yeah. No, I'm in favor. You're in favor. 50 00:08:06.332 --> 00:08:13.372 I'm not gonna take the other side. We're all in- David, do you take the other side? We're, we're all in favor. In favor. All right. Let's, let's- Hell no. In favor... let's establish some shared principles here. 51 00:08:13.772 --> 00:08:18.892 Then I do think you have to be a little bit more sophisticated in the way that you think about news as a category. 52 00:08:19.372 --> 00:08:38.092 Now, of course, block lists have had a big impact on the digital advertising business for news companies, and I, I, I see some good work being done by some of the sort of more established players, but also some really cool, interesting startups that are beginning to think differently about how to provide brand suitability tools. 53 00:08:38.612 --> 00:08:46.312 But first and foremost, I think we have to stop saying news is this big category and it's bad for advertisers. The data shows that that's not the case. 54 00:08:46.332 --> 00:09:00.772 The technology is starting to help us get better at providing brand suitability and brand safety environments, brand safe environments, and altogether, it's part of our responsibility if you're in this industry to find ways to support trusted journalism. 55 00:09:01.622 --> 00:09:10.372 The, the reality of it is, is that we are on a massive moment of change. Yes, of course, the Washington Post is in, in it right now, right? 56 00:09:10.472 --> 00:09:33.392 We are in the middle of our redesigning our future, but the whole industry is in a moment of massive change, and if we don't actually get in front of it and start to have honest dialogue and conversations, then we could be in a situation in a, in a decade, in less than a decade, where trusted journalism, trusted news, trusted environments for brands ha- has really decreased. 57 00:09:33.552 --> 00:09:33.672 Yeah. 58 00:09:33.812 --> 00:09:46.532 I was talking to someone actually here earlier, and he made the point that it was almost like climate change, in that we might all of a sudden look back and be like, "I can't believe we let this happen," and it was happening as, you know, it's happening in front of us. 59 00:09:46.602 --> 00:09:50.472 But, uh- I mean, it really is... and so David, what... how do you diagnose the issue? 60 00:09:50.592 --> 00:10:02.472 And, and break it down between like, how much is a product issue, like how much is it a, a business model issue, and how much of it is almost a communication issue? Sure. So f- first I think it's... 61 00:10:02.532 --> 00:10:06.352 I was thrilled to participate here because of all the reasons we, we just mentioned. 62 00:10:06.412 --> 00:10:15.752 I mean, it is a really important thing for society, for all of us to help trusted professional journalism to thrive, and I think we can all agree on that. 63 00:10:15.812 --> 00:10:24.332 And I think the implication on society are, are really going to be very damaging if we don't do that. So I think we need to ensure that we change the narrative. 64 00:10:24.412 --> 00:10:36.472 We are trying to do this through narratives of bringing brand dollars back to journalism, and I think this is an important effort for all of us. I was reading Kate's numbers, and I had exactly the same. Wow, exciting. 65 00:10:36.662 --> 00:10:45.862 It's growing. [laughs] And then it's declining, it's declining. Then we get to our part of the world. So first I was trying to separate between, uh, print and digital publishers- Mm-hmm... 66 00:10:45.912 --> 00:10:54.472 so maybe it's not as bad as you said. Right. Uh, I would say, I mean, we're a public company. I can't give forecast of numbers, but we actually, we're global. 67 00:10:54.552 --> 00:11:06.732 B- we do about a billion dollars in advertising, 60% outside the US, 40 in the US. We see in the second half growth, and we're very dependent on, on the publisher industry. So we do see on digital growth as we focus. 68 00:11:06.792 --> 00:11:22.712 But so, so specifically, and I, I think we need to look at news is, is very broad and we face it a lot with, with advertisers who wanna block, and then we need to talk to them and say, "If you wanna block, let's not block news publishers by their title, but let's at least... 69 00:11:23.132 --> 00:11:30.032 I mean, the minimum we can do," and that's easy with product, "is just block segments if you don't wanna be next to certain news pages." 70 00:11:30.532 --> 00:11:34.792 But then I think we can do more as a tech company, and we're doing more in terms of even that. 71 00:11:35.312 --> 00:11:43.972 I think we need to educate the market, communication in terms of these news pages, even the news pages, not the lifestyle or entertainment. This is sort of obvious. 72 00:11:44.032 --> 00:11:55.324 I mean, why wouldn't you be okay to be next to an entertainment or lifestyle or sports page? I mean, there's no content there that's controversial on, on, I don't know, the sports section.Hard news. 73 00:11:55.444 --> 00:12:05.463 I've, I've not seen- Yeah... to your point, I've not seen evidence that says consumers are, you know, think more negatively about a brand if they appear next to, to news. Yeah. That, the, the, it just doesn't exist. 74 00:12:05.484 --> 00:12:15.424 And so exactly. So I think taking that and then let's go to the core of the problem, the hard news pages and how do we change that because that is still a... If you look at percentage of the total traffic goes there. 75 00:12:15.524 --> 00:12:22.684 So, A, it's a really valuable audience that's from a demographic point of view sort of interested in that. 76 00:12:22.964 --> 00:12:33.824 So there's a lot you can conclude on that audience from the context, and we're doing that to really create better targeting. We came out with something called predictive audiences, a lot of it based on context. 77 00:12:34.414 --> 00:12:40.064 And then I do think we can limit the blocking to really pages that are problematic. 78 00:12:40.644 --> 00:12:51.504 But if there are brands and CMOs and agencies that just say, "I don't wanna be on a title of a brand that is a news," I mean, that's very problematic for society, and that's something we need to communicate and work. 79 00:12:51.544 --> 00:13:00.744 And I think this podcast is one, one of the ways to- Yeah... to im- im- impact. I mean, I think there's, there's lots and lots to discuss in that. Um, a couple of points that I do think it's worth focusing on. 80 00:13:00.784 --> 00:13:03.824 The first is, and you sort of both mention it, which is around audience. 81 00:13:04.394 --> 00:13:21.144 When we're talking about news as a category, and even if it is in sort of more of the core news product, you're talking about a highly engaged, highly influential audience paying attention to content that can influence perhaps their professional, but suddenly their professional and their personal lives, right? 82 00:13:21.784 --> 00:13:29.454 And, and that mindset, that level of engagement, that type of audience is hugely valuable to brands. So that's the first thing. 83 00:13:29.564 --> 00:13:37.884 I think that if you approach it with an audience-first mindset, then you can very quickly get to the, "Oh, I see the benefits of being part again of this ecosystem." 84 00:13:38.394 --> 00:13:52.724 The second point that you raised there, David, around CMOs, I don't think the problem in my experience is that CMOs don't want to be part of or have news or, you know, specifically The Washington Post as part of their media mix. 85 00:13:52.764 --> 00:13:57.484 They see the value in it. They're, they're readers of our content. CCO is the same. 86 00:13:58.084 --> 00:14:07.644 I think the challenge is, is that the further you get sort of through the procurement pro- process, if you will, to actually the transactions, that's when we start to really encompass the problem. 87 00:14:07.724 --> 00:14:20.584 So both when it's r- the responsibility of someone that doesn't have the same relationship or appreciation with news, or when it's tech that is, to your point, sort of blocking us without necessarily the sophistication that it needs. 88 00:14:20.644 --> 00:14:30.524 I mean, it's a CYA problem, right? Yeah. Yeah. I mean, it doesn't seem like, to your point- Yeah... we could invade the brand innovator space and, and, um [laughs] you know- Actually, our space is right next door. 89 00:14:30.684 --> 00:14:32.614 Oh, that's perfect. So just, just come to The Washington Post space [laughs] Yeah, yeah. 90 00:14:32.704 --> 00:14:41.603 We'll infiltrate, and I don't think many CMOs will, will be saying, "No, we don't want anything to do with the news," 'cause they're up... They're talking about- Yeah, yeah... Focus and all this other stuff. Yeah, yeah. 91 00:14:41.684 --> 00:14:47.544 Um, but when it filters down, sometimes on the agency level I'm told [laughs] you know, they're... 92 00:14:47.724 --> 00:14:58.144 You know, when those plans get put into place that there is, look, people turn to brand safety vendors, and you're blocking domestic violence. It makes no sense. 93 00:14:58.244 --> 00:15:08.604 And there is, in my view, still, and I've heard this repeatedly, this fear of screenshots. Like, you know- Mm... nobody wants a screenshot to ruin their weekend. 94 00:15:09.204 --> 00:15:16.524 What do you think needs to, to happen on the, the buy side, or does anything need to happen? 95 00:15:16.624 --> 00:15:26.274 Is it just the f- I think one of the, the, the other questions I have is just, like, maybe it just doesn't work well enough because these risks would be worth taking if, you know, people return... 96 00:15:26.784 --> 00:15:36.084 Brands had no problem giving up on their boycotts on YouTube. I- they had no problem- Mm... doing that. And- Well, I think there's... It's not gonna exist the same way it has. Mm-hmm. Right? 97 00:15:36.384 --> 00:15:50.624 That we have to agree that the world changes. I think generally we have seen increasing globalization across businesses, and particularly media and content, and I think that creates a different level for various... 98 00:15:50.744 --> 00:16:00.204 No- not every news organization is going to be the same. You mentioned you're a global company. I think that helps multinational, larger national and global advertisers, global audiences, right? 99 00:16:00.264 --> 00:16:09.424 I mean, the thing when you are on a platform like a, a YouTube or a Meta that's all global content, there are no barriers in that sense, right? So the ability for... 100 00:16:09.454 --> 00:16:22.444 and I think what, where The Washington Post and, and others like it, like The New York Times will do well, they've been more able to as larger businesses that are covering more global news, more national news, to be able to get subscribers and advertiser dollars. 101 00:16:22.464 --> 00:16:29.124 And I think where the, the larger problem is probably the, the more local newspapers, and we've seen that already to some extent. 102 00:16:29.164 --> 00:16:46.964 But to the extent that, you know, news organizations can create a bit more parity and, and more of a, a national and global orientation potentially is also beneficial because that's increasingly the way that advertisers, both large brands and smaller and, and medium-sized advertisers are oriented. 103 00:16:46.994 --> 00:16:56.764 It's just the way of the world. To add, I think your point on the example of YouTube is, is a very good one. I think we can help with communication, and influencing is changing a little bit the mindset. 104 00:16:56.784 --> 00:17:04.124 But at the end of the day, I think what's going to change it is can we deliver value for advertisers- Right... with those audiences? I mean, that, that's- Right... 105 00:17:04.224 --> 00:17:15.724 that's really the question, and I think yes, we can, and I think there's a lot of technology. The audience profile is very interesting. I think you can create better attention, engagement. 106 00:17:15.804 --> 00:17:24.584 I mean, we are working a lot on these things, and I think, I think that's the key. At the end, it, it's economically driven. Yeah. I- If we show the value, the m- the dollars will be there. Sorry. 107 00:17:24.644 --> 00:17:31.394 I mean, it is a, a economic machine. We're in a capitalistic society. [laughs] So just show the- Long live capitalism. Yes. [laughs] Yeah. So- I'm so- [laughs]... 108 00:17:31.404 --> 00:17:34.834 just show the return, just show the return- I'm capitalism. Yeah... 109 00:17:34.844 --> 00:17:46.584 no, show the return on ad spend, whether it's a performance campaign, show the high level of awareness that your branding campaign got, and the dollars will be there. But we have to combine it because that's not enough. 110 00:17:46.624 --> 00:17:54.404 We also have to change the perception, but that's not enough. Then you need to show that the value is there, and I think, I think it's there, and I think it's just- Yeah... our work to, to prove it. 111 00:17:54.524 --> 00:18:03.094 I think they were doing a really good job of explaining how complex and complicated the work that we're doing is right now. And, and, and part of that, and I sort of... 112 00:18:03.154 --> 00:18:08.224 this isn't, like, a, you know, media planner problem. We allowed ourselves to be... 113 00:18:08.284 --> 00:18:24.644 the metric of success to be sort of reach and efficiency in a world where, A, we didn't reallyWe weren't able to play there as well as much, much larger properties but then we, we took away actually the value that we bring to our partners, which is not about reach and efficiency and low-cost eCPMs. 114 00:18:24.684 --> 00:18:33.324 I mean, yes, of course we can do some of the lower funnel work. It's about that upper funnel brand, that quality engagement with a, with a powerful audience. 115 00:18:33.784 --> 00:18:45.003 And I-- and again, I think n- no, this isn't a Washington Post thing, I think just as an industry, we have a, a tendency to sort of really swing with the kind of cool, interesting, or the, you know, the most talked about thing. 116 00:18:45.054 --> 00:18:50.264 Mm-hmm. And, and reach and scale was that for a really long time, and so that's the, the place that we found ourselves playing. 117 00:18:50.664 --> 00:19:01.704 And I actually think that w- we are much better as a platform or as its partner when you think about us from this highly engaged, important audience that can do quality work with, with good ROI. 118 00:19:01.884 --> 00:19:09.224 Well, I mean, that's a great point because, I mean, you mentioned news not as a monolith category- Yeah... which is a good reminder because business news does not have these problems, you know? Yeah. 119 00:19:09.404 --> 00:19:17.384 You know, you can sell out of display regularly at The Journal and Bloomberg- Yeah, yeah... and that exists on these pages. 120 00:19:17.704 --> 00:19:30.204 How do you change-- I mean, look, mostly it seems brands don't want any part of the politics stuff. I, I know that there can be study after study that, that can show- Yeah... this. 121 00:19:30.244 --> 00:19:36.144 There's tons of studies that also show that companies lose out when they stop advertising during a recession. 122 00:19:36.664 --> 00:19:44.984 Every recession I, I've been through, I think I've been through three or four, they immediately stop advertising. They don't pay attention to that. The CFO is like, "I don't know what you're talking about." 123 00:19:44.994 --> 00:19:52.544 [laughs] And you like don't think they're like, "This is your moment to cut through, Megan." Yeah, yeah. "Print money." [laughs] I was like, I was like, Ad Age has those queued up- Yeah, yeah... for every recession. 124 00:19:52.574 --> 00:20:01.424 Yeah, copy. And just like, let's go. That's funny. [laughs] Never works. How do you-- I mean, is it just the fact that you need to- Yeah... segment these in that you are going to have- Yeah... 125 00:20:01.484 --> 00:20:12.334 a section of your inventory that's basically almost unmonetizable through advertising, and it has to be, it has to be monetized through subscriptions and licensing versus ads? Yeah. 126 00:20:12.344 --> 00:20:20.304 Because I don't know if you're gonna convince a lot, like... Yeah. I mean, it, it's interesting, right? Because y- you are a- absolutely correct. 127 00:20:20.364 --> 00:20:26.524 The, the content, the politics, the campaign content drives the, the highest subscriptions. 128 00:20:26.884 --> 00:20:34.834 So we're really lucky at the Washington Post that we have a, a already diversified business model, that we have both healthy subs and a healthy advertising business. 129 00:20:35.404 --> 00:20:44.424 And the, the content that the subscribers or drives more subscribers, and actually May was the highest month for subscriptions in the last, I think, 18 months. 130 00:20:44.504 --> 00:20:52.424 I have an amazing partner, Carl Wells, who you know- Mm-hmm... who, who's leading this business, and we've built a much more sophisticated customer-led paywall. 131 00:20:52.524 --> 00:21:02.824 So w- you're right, the, the, the, the politics coverage, the campaign messaging is not going to be the place where I focus our advertising investment or, or strategy really. 132 00:21:03.164 --> 00:21:11.204 Now, of course, you can monetize that programmatically and, and it's not that it doesn't have any ad value. The ad value though is primarily on the audience subscription side. 133 00:21:11.664 --> 00:21:23.124 So we put that and our amazing editorial team continues to, you know, break scoops and have an amazing-- work in that space excellent. We can monetize it through audience and subscriptions. 134 00:21:23.204 --> 00:21:28.404 What's, what's interesting is then when you start to look at other parts of our, of our content portfolio, if you think about it like that. 135 00:21:28.824 --> 00:21:36.944 Business, tech, economics, that is the highest converting for subscriptions and the highest generating for advertisers. You're spot on. 136 00:21:37.004 --> 00:21:49.844 Like, if you're in a B2B space or if you're in a vertical content area, and I worked at the FT and at The Journal, that business, the business content, it can resist some of the sort of market volatility that you see in more of the consumer space. 137 00:21:50.344 --> 00:22:04.444 So I think that us investing and continuing to grow out our core news product business, tech, some sports we'd probably put in there as well, 'cause that's at sort of the right sort of type of audience, that is a great way for us to grow our advertising business. 138 00:22:04.964 --> 00:22:16.764 What's really exciting is the fact that we have also said that that's not all we do. Over the last two, three years, we have invested very heavily into service journalism. 139 00:22:17.244 --> 00:22:34.963 And I know I'm on a podcast, but I'm not sure I love the term service journalism, but it's the how to, it's the wellbeing, it's the travel, it's the recipes, it's, it's the content that I think has got a more dynamic relationship with the audience, just sort of posing questions and getting answers versus the slightly more didactic core news. 140 00:22:35.424 --> 00:22:47.724 So what now we're saying, actually this whole bucket of journalism can also be a, a really great opportunity for us to, to monetize and diversify our business. We just have to think about it differently. 141 00:22:48.024 --> 00:22:52.334 It just shouldn't sit in the same bucket as, as politics or core news, right? 142 00:22:52.404 --> 00:23:04.984 It needs to sit in a sort of differentiated area, and how we monetize that could look really different from partnerships, maybe affiliate, but I think also in the way you're thinking about micropayments and then the, the way that you think about flexible payments. 143 00:23:05.364 --> 00:23:09.504 But most importantly, reaching our audiences wherever they are. 144 00:23:09.544 --> 00:23:19.254 And that is a moment that the news industry has come to, which is that next generation of news consumers aren't necessarily gonna come to The Washington Post to consume their news. 145 00:23:19.284 --> 00:23:29.164 They're gonna consume it elsewhere, so we have to meet them there. Yeah. So Kate, I think one of the big things that, that I took away from your report was this pronounced shift to performance, right? 146 00:23:29.254 --> 00:23:37.144 And it's not the streaming like that is, is more engagement. But I think about, I joke like that performance marketing basically ate the industry. 147 00:23:37.444 --> 00:23:44.104 I used to cover direct marketing, and it was just this backwater, and then all of a sudden it got rebranded performance marketing and became sexier. 148 00:23:44.144 --> 00:23:51.364 [laughs] But everything has moved to stuff you can measure and that can lead to direct sales, and we're seeing advertising blur with commerce. 149 00:23:51.424 --> 00:23:58.504 I know you've dealt with a lot of that with how to even define what advertising is these days. Yeah, very tricky. I think blur is the right word, right? 150 00:23:58.564 --> 00:24:13.104 I think we're gonna continue to see more and more blur such that we're not having these distinctions between brand upper funnel and DR, you know, direct response lower funnel, that more of it exists within a continuum, within a spectrum, and that every... 151 00:24:13.124 --> 00:24:23.524 You know, because there is brand lift to performance ads and there are elements, could be elements of, you know, purchase tied to a big anthemic CTV campaign. Why not? Right? 152 00:24:23.564 --> 00:24:35.225 So I think it's partly about not putting things in these rigid ca-Buckets that, that need to exist there. And then also, you know, thinking about the different ways that digital properties can be used. 153 00:24:35.326 --> 00:24:46.556 Doesn't have to just be that lower funnel direct response, but it has been, I think attractive to marketers in the ability to tie- Yeah... media to a, an outcome. 154 00:24:46.576 --> 00:24:55.496 But increasingly we'll be able to see that across, you know, more and more- Yeah... surfaces and touch points. The wanna-maker quote is not trotted out as much [laughs] as it used to be, basically. 155 00:24:55.546 --> 00:25:00.756 [laughs] Because you don't have to settle for half not working or not knowing, at least from the view of... 156 00:25:00.836 --> 00:25:06.656 So what I worry about, and I wanna bring you in on this, David, is that there's a lot of well-meaning panels around CAN. 157 00:25:06.816 --> 00:25:11.216 Not that people talk about one thing in CAN and do something different, 'cause that would never happen. No, absolutely. 158 00:25:11.576 --> 00:25:28.216 [laughs] Um, but I think it's really problematic in the long run if supporting news becomes the sort of message as if it's like a charity, because we do live in capitalist societies [laughs] and it needs to perform, in quotes. 159 00:25:28.676 --> 00:25:34.996 I agree. That's why I said, I mean, at the end, we can talk about it. It's nice to talk about, but it is a reality in, in, in economics. 160 00:25:35.056 --> 00:25:42.096 So first, I think in terms of even brand campaigns today into a performance question, they're looking for measurable outcomes. 161 00:25:42.136 --> 00:25:57.156 When we launched Onyx Outbrain, which is our brand-building product which was different than our performance, we very much focused around driving proving attention and using a lot of the predictive technologies that drive performance and bringing them to brand awareness. 162 00:25:57.696 --> 00:26:11.916 And then the next step of, of it is when we have the opportunity, we work about 7,000 publishers, is to, to connect that brand-building campaign immediately on, on the feed into a conversion or a lead or a consideration. 163 00:26:11.976 --> 00:26:23.796 So the ability to do all of that for brands, but also on the upper funnel, it's a different world. I mean, it m- it, it's sort of blurry line because they also need to see real return on their dollars. 164 00:26:24.536 --> 00:26:31.156 Wanna make one more comment on your news pages. I think going back to that, if I may, for the last, last time. Yeah. 165 00:26:31.736 --> 00:26:41.106 I mean, news is a big category, and politics and elections is one, but there's a lot of other news, too. I was just coming out of a meeting with one agency, not yours- [laughs]... 166 00:26:41.116 --> 00:26:52.796 another agency, and I tried on him, and they say, "Listen, you have no chance this year when the elections are so controversial and the discourse is what it is to convince a brand on that." I said, "Okay." 167 00:26:53.396 --> 00:26:59.396 But when you look at news, I mean, there's a lot of other things that are not just, uh, Trump and Biden or other elections around the world. 168 00:26:59.456 --> 00:27:08.196 So I think we just need to continue and work on, on sort of proving the value of these audiences. And yes, I mean, there's certain things that are gonna always be blocked. 169 00:27:08.276 --> 00:27:15.456 I think people don't wanna be associated with negative political campaigning. I don't think... I mean, it's a waste of time to try and change that. I agree with you. 170 00:27:16.096 --> 00:27:19.256 People don't wanna be next to war pages with images that... 171 00:27:19.316 --> 00:27:31.356 But then you have tons of other news that are just news, I mean, about economics and other things, and by blocking the news section, you're creating a, a huge damage to society, again, coming back to that. 172 00:27:31.436 --> 00:27:52.776 So I think the technology's there to do it, and we're doing it, so we are able to then, when we analyze our 7,000 publishers, I know which pages are war related, which pages are election related, and what percentage it is and, and we're trying to package it in a sort of optimized supply path to, to just do packages that would meet those, those requirements and still not block out all news. 173 00:27:52.836 --> 00:28:02.326 Yeah. So. I mean, there are 16- more than $16 billion of political advertising revenue- Yes... just this year, so- Yes. [laughs] By the way, they, they will fuel the second half a little bit- [laughs]... 174 00:28:02.336 --> 00:28:13.026 so that's why I'm not as negative on the... [laughs] [laughs] The i- the interesting thing about the performance sort of fixation or the moment is that I, I find that this is quite cyclical, right? Yeah. 175 00:28:13.036 --> 00:28:23.756 So I find that perhaps in a moment when actually CMOs are really being tied to performance of a company, then they go to, you know, much lower funnel again, tactics or performance type marketing. 176 00:28:23.816 --> 00:28:26.076 They've got to be able to point to their- Mm-hmm... 177 00:28:26.096 --> 00:28:35.856 you know, return on investment, and then within 18 months or less, suddenly realize they've taken their eyes off the brand story and sort of pivot back into, in to the brand story. 178 00:28:35.936 --> 00:28:43.416 So I like what you say that actually smart campaigns and smart partners can do both, and, like, there's a blurred line between it. 179 00:28:43.476 --> 00:28:50.505 Just because something's a great brand story doesn't mean it can't actually deliver, you know, leads and demand gen type related activity. 180 00:28:50.976 --> 00:28:56.256 But the, the clearest thing is that you've gotta set out with the intention, right? Why are you working with the partner? 181 00:28:56.316 --> 00:29:02.036 What is the expectation on the ROI, and how can you make sure that you can actually optimize towards that? 182 00:29:02.066 --> 00:29:16.406 And one of the things that we haven't talked about here at all is the implications around AI in both advertising in terms of, like, the actual ecosystem and the efficiencies and the operational efficiencies that it might bring and some of the enhancements to creativity. 183 00:29:16.436 --> 00:29:26.016 But I, I think from a, again, performance point of view, the, the way that we actually talk about performance or measure it is going to change dramatically very quickly. 184 00:29:26.056 --> 00:29:36.646 And so I, I, I feel confident that, first, our quality audience with, you know, the first-party data that we have, the premium environment is going to ultimately be able to deliver on those results. 185 00:29:36.676 --> 00:29:46.446 So talk to me more about that. Like, how are you gonna be able?... 'Cause ultimately I would guess whether it's a buyer or a marketer would say, "Try to show me that this is working." Mm. 186 00:29:46.456 --> 00:29:54.996 Like, "I've got closed loop-" Well, they do actually say that to me. [laughs]... closed loop attribution systems. Yeah. "I put money in." Yeah. Like, everyone wants a vending, a customer vending machine- Yeah... 187 00:29:55.005 --> 00:30:04.296 where they feed quarters in, and then they just... Customers come outAnd that is what platforms and retail media are going into the market with. Yeah. 188 00:30:04.356 --> 00:30:15.036 So what, what, what's the picture that you think- I'm not sure that that's why people come to The Washington Post. Now, you talked about this the other week. This is a, a, a quality over quantity platform. 189 00:30:15.156 --> 00:30:24.546 Our, our work, the, the, the news we're producing, the audience that we curate, that we have, this isn't about scale and efficiency. I've said that already. Mm-hmm. 190 00:30:24.546 --> 00:30:38.236 And I think as such that the performance marketing attribution-type campaigns is not where we are the first partner. Um, I think we can be additive in that space, and we also have a, a, a, a big network. 191 00:30:38.356 --> 00:30:47.756 It's sort of like two hundred million uniques off platform of our content, so we can provide some scale. But I would... That's not where I'd send my team to play, right? 192 00:30:47.956 --> 00:30:59.096 I want my team to build really excellent client direct often, but sort of senior level agency relationships that understand the value of news. This isn't a charity. You're not doing us a favor. 193 00:30:59.536 --> 00:31:09.696 We're going to give you the opportunity to reach the people that have, again, the impact to change your business outcomes, your potentially your political outcomes, and then also some of your, like, personal decisions. 194 00:31:09.726 --> 00:31:17.876 And it's important. It can't be put into a bucket of like, oh, did that deliver the, you know, lowest funnel, cheapest part of it? That's not, that's not where we play. 195 00:31:17.976 --> 00:31:29.816 But if you want to grow, and if all the other money is moving to the platforms, you are going to eventually need to be able to create an, an argument that says, "Here's why your money is better spent here than on those platforms." 196 00:31:29.856 --> 00:31:29.866 Yeah. Yeah. 197 00:31:29.866 --> 00:31:42.666 And I agree with a point you made earlier around making sure that, that we're talking about metrics, not just in the way that people maybe have been trained by some of the, the platforms around what is or isn't important- Mm... 198 00:31:42.716 --> 00:31:50.426 but actually around really looking at what- Yes. Tends to be the metrics they do well on. Yes. [laughs] Yeah. I mean, we talked about, like, time spent and engagement. But- It makes it so dull... 199 00:31:50.426 --> 00:31:56.596 but there's a lot of proven metrics- Yeah... that say we deliver to advertisers, otherwise they wouldn't be spending more. So whether it's on- Yeah... 200 00:31:56.606 --> 00:32:02.196 performance or on attention, on engagement, and attribution and, and- That's right... that, I think these are things that we're doing. 201 00:32:02.236 --> 00:32:13.356 We need to prove that the value of the audience is phenomenal on the open internet, and that's why advertisers will shift those dollars back from all the other places that they're growing in the graphs and, you know. 202 00:32:13.876 --> 00:32:23.646 All right. On that hopeful note [laughs], David- Yes... Kate, Joanna- Thank you... thank you so much for joining me. And thank you to Group M for hosting us. [upbeat music] [laughs] Thank you. Thank you. Coming up. 203 00:32:23.646 --> 00:32:32.336 Thanks. Thank you very much. [upbeat music]