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[on-hold music] I covered the Trump White House as a reporter. Trump White House had a dynamic workplace environment too.

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[laughs] But as a reporter, you kind of reach this threshold of tolerance of insanity that, you know, means that you can handle pretty much anything else in the world.

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I think, you know, I could probably fly a spaceship because I covered the Trump White House for Politico, I should add too- Oh... which was without a doubt one of the most pressure-packed couple of years of my life.

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[on-hold music] Welcome to the Rebooting show. I'm Brian Morrissey. I wanted to have a discussion this week.

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It's a little bit different, and it's gonna be about the state of journalism as a business, but also as a journalist. And I know it's a bit navel-gazy, I admit it.

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But I feel like ever since I joined this profession twenty-odd years ago, it was in some kind of state of crisis, and now it's no different.

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But at the same time, I do think the profession is morphing and the business is morphing, and it's changing in some pretty profound ways, and some good and maybe some not so good, but it's hard to say at this point for the long haul.

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But without a doubt, there's more pathways than ever when you're a journalist for what you're deciding to do.

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So I'm joined today by Darren Samuelson, a longtime reporter and editor who's most recently the DC bureau chief for Insider. And now he's making a mid-career move to Substack, something I can definitely identify with.

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And, and Darren [chuckles] and I were talking last week, and I said we should do a podcast about this very thing. [on-hold music] You have a new newsletter yourself, right? That's right.

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Celebrating Valentine's Day with the ultimate valentine to, uh, my lifelong passion, which is journalism. I love it. I love journalism on journalism. I love newsletters about newsletters, podcasts about podcasts.

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But let's l- what was your rationale? You don't have to go, like, through your entire resume, but what was the rationale that you found for getting into the field?

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'Cause I think that's something that I find when talking with, like, non-journalists or even just, like, particularly reading, like, a lot of the quote unquote "horse on Twitter" from, like, tech people and stuff like this about journalists.

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I always find it doesn't totally match up to my experiences [chuckles] with the people in the field.

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I mean, my journalism origin story is I was ten years old in fifth grade, uh, in the gifted program at my South Florida elementary school, and, uh, they- Oh....

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they let us do the morning announcements, uh, on television, closed circuit television to, uh, to the whole school. And everybody got to, you know, have a part.

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One person played the audio of Yankee Doodle Dandy or the Star Spangled Banner. Someone else, uh, was holding the, handling the cameras. Someone had to organize the scripts and go get the kids for birthday announcements.

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And then, then there were anchors. And we all took turns. And, uh, I was an anchor for, you know, a number of weeks, y- you know, rotating in and out, and I loved it. I loved every aspect of it.

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I was good at it, and my teachers loved me. Uh, my classmates loved it.

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Parents loved it, and they just kept encouraging it and encouraging it, throwing f- you know, a lot of kindling on the fire [chuckles] and that was thirty-seven years ago. First and, and so- Yeah.

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Obviously, you had a, uh, a passion for it and stuff like this, but then you're like, you go into, like, it as a business. So, so I don't know, what have your been y- your... I don't know, any regrets at all?

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Because, I mean, it is a very, very turbulent business to get into, right? [laughs] I think that's why you have to write a love letter to it. Yeah.

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I mean, this is, for me, it is sort of the culmination of, of thirty-seven years of loving this business and, and very much hating it at various much, at a lot of points in time.

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I, it's, it's been a relationship like any relationship, where you're feeling the highest of highs when you're chasing a story and you're, you know, you're nailing scoops and you're, you're onto something.

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Y- when you win prizes, I think it's maybe the highest point in, in your journalism career. It's as good as you get.

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I think I've had a couple of moments where I've had things go viral, uh, things take off, become part of the, the lexicon.

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You know, inspiring, uh, Saturday Night Live cold openings is one thought, uh, that comes to mind, one story that comes to mind, and thought about retiring right there and then in that moment.

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It's a mic drop kind of a moment when you're at that point, and you're literally entering the cultural lexicon through political reporting. But I've had experiences like that throughout my entire career in sports.

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Covering the Winter Olympics in Japan is, at twenty-five years old, is about as, you know, cool as you can get. But yeah, no, there have been ample amounts of frustration that I've faced as well.

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I covered the White House in twenty twelve and really, really wanted to end up on the White House beat at Politico coming out of twenty twelve.

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And, you know, ultimately, they decided, the editors above thought I needed to be in a different position and try something a little bit that was more akin to my skills, and they put me into a, a different position as a senior policy reporter, sort of in that second Obama term.

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And I ended up producing some of the best journalism of my life. I was, don't get me wrong, really upset, you know, not to be put on the sort of great un- you know, the great White House beat full-time.

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But the, for me, I've often bounced back from a lot of the adversity.

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This new Substack that I'm launching is very much coming out of the adversity of losing a really cool job at Insider, working my, working hard to, you know, make something happen and doing amazing journalism along the way, but, you know, ultimately parting ways and, and then trying to figure out what I wanted to do, uh, next when I grew up, and that's where I got to this point here with the Substack.

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Yeah. So how much did you, like, pay attention to, like, the business model challenges growing up, growing up [chuckles] going through the profession? Because I always, like, think that there's...

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I mean, there's two types I always saw, like, gr- a- although I think it, like, morphed a lot.

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Like, I think, like, maybe you didn't find it, like, entering the profession, it was like, "Oh, don't worry about, you know, the business is the business side," and stuff like this.

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But I think, I feel like [chuckles] at least as time went on, I found that that sort of faded away and that's become a bit of a cliché.

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I think a lot of times, you know, journalists are very, very well aware of, of the business model. But when, when did you sort of really start to pay attention to the business model challenges?

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I think as a reporter, you're kind of naive to the business model, and I, I don't think, you know, getting started, it certainly wasn't front of mind.

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For me, it was always the story, chasing the story, getting a great story.

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But I think throughout my career, maybe, you know, you, as you're going bit by bit, you're starting to realize, "Wait a minute, what's going on here?"

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And I guess I, I graduated from the University of Missouri School of Journalism in nineteen ninety-seven, so right as the internetIs becoming a thing.

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We were publishing the digital Missourian in '97, uh, in Columbia, city paper, but it was, you know, the earliest versions, digmo.com. And, uh, you know,

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for me, coming out of college in '97, everyone else was doing the sort of journalism route that every, you know, that you would think you would do.

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You go to small town paper, then you go to a medium-sized paper, and you work your way up the chain to ultimately get to the Post or The Times or, you know, one of the big Olympus, uh, style papers.

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And I, I took a detour right then [laughs] and there, and I went and taught English in Japan for a year and decided to just totally zig- [laughs]... when everyone else was zagging and going and getting their first jobs.

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But I did come back to America. Got my first job in Olympia, Washington, at, uh, The Olympian, uh, a Gannett newspaper at the time. You know, $24,000 a year salary, uh, you know, very basic starting job.

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And you could start to feel those pressures 'cause, don't get me wrong, The Olympian today in 2023 has been through, I think, two or three management changes, uh, ownership changes, is nowhere near the size of the paper that it was.

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I got to see that sort of right at the very end of like, you know, the heyday of The Olympian, which, you know, used to sit in an amazing building overlooking the South Sound in Olympian.

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You know, it was, it was a anchor of the community. It still is an anchor of the community, but much smaller, no longer has that big newsroom downtown.

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For me, I mean, I, I came to Washington DC in 2000, and I had a number of opportunities that were, you know, for a first-time journalist coming in.

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And I went the route of, uh, working for E&E News in 2000, which was just buying Greenwire from National Journal and was just becoming a [clears throat] a digital, uh, first outlet. I guess it took a couple of years.

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They were still printing on paper, uh, the weekend, uh, the weekly edition there to start the week, uh, sort of what was happening in Congress.

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But you, you quickly realized at, at E&E, this is in 2001, 2, 3, 4, 5, like, the business model there was working amazingly. Yeah. And it was the subscription model.

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[laughs] Well, like National Journal's business model always really [laughs] worked well. Yeah.

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And, and the, and so the, when they purchased Greenwire, which, you know, had originally started from Phil Shabecoff from The New York Times, after he left The New York Times, they merged together a couple of different outlets, and they were charging a lot of money for a very specialized product and, and doing incredibly well.

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I mean, the subscription base just kept growing and growing as energy became a bigger and bigger topic through the, through the odds from, you know, uh, from Enron to 9/11, uh, and all the infrastructure questions to, you know, there were energy bills galore.

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There was obviously the Dick Cheney energy task force and, and drilling in the Arctic and all that stuff and climate starting to blow up. So the model was great, and people...

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It was funny, like I was, in '03, '04, to kinda talk about the, the journalism world, like, you know, what did I wanna do?

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I wanted to go get a job at like the Seattle PI or the Denver Post, uh, Washington Bureaus here in, in DC, and I was applying for those jobs in '02, '03, '04, and I didn't get any of them.

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I wanted, you know, more exposure as a reporter. I wanted my, my, you know, I wanted my byline in a newspaper. But what was happening was those bureaus started to close in '03, '04, '05, '06. Yeah.

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And a lot of those reporters would end up working at E&E News [laughs] where I was working, as, you know, it was sort of a place that you could jump onto as a safe place to come.

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And, you know, the salaries were great at E&E, and the place just kept getting bigger and bigger. And, and by the time I left in 2010, so 10 years later, I mean, the, the newsroom was

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probably five, six, seven times what it was when I started. It was thriving.

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And, you know, it thrived so well that 10 years later, Politico purchased it, uh, from the owners of E&E News and, uh, and, uh, made it into part of Politico now.

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So I mean, that is a, that is one model that I really watched up close, the paywall subscription-based model taking off.

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And I guess, you know, it's important to note for my career, where did I go when I left E&E in 2010?

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I got poached by Politico, which was just starting Politico Pro at that very moment to s- to, to compete with E&E- Yeah... and to put a, a new, you know, policy-focused paywall up at Politico charging equally large sums.

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Again, great business model, great resources, great revenue.

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And you know, Politico Pro, when I got started in 2010, again, I was a original member of that team, formed, I think it was healthcare, energy, and defense were the first three that they launched.

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And then by the time I was gone in 2010, I think there was like 11, 12, 13 pro verticals covering everything from cyber to eHealth.

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I mean, and amazingly smart, talented reporters who, again, uh, th- this was a great lesson for me in terms of the business model is if you do specialize, if you do have a niche, uh, I mean, there are so many great reporters in this country who are specializing in, in, in niche reporting.

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And, you know, if you, if you do it in a, uh, paywalled situation, especially for a trade publication, you're gonna do really well, uh, journalistically, you know.

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And then what ultimately compelled me to leave E&E, I should say, and go to Politico was again, that, that desire to be read by more people and be in front of a paywall. Yeah.

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And that's what I got to do at Politico over the course of my career. Yeah.

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[gentle music] Yeah.

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It's funny. So there's two, like, I feel like opposing pressures in stuff like this, 'cause you talk about it. It's like you want a wider audience, right?

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But like, you know, the, the quote unquote crisis in journalism has been in that like generalist area. Mm-hmm. And it's like the ones with the biggest reach, and therefore likely, you know, bigger impact.

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But like really the area of like very focused journalism, whether it's like trade or, or other areas, you know, has not suffered as much probably [laughs] as the sort of general. I mean, you see this like... And, and

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I, what I always found strange about the profession in some ways is, is that a lot of the training and just culture sort of, I would say, overemphasizes the general, right?

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Like you're, you're trained to be a generalist as a jour- as a journalist. You are. And it's funny, I'm, I'm at this stage of my career, I mean, at, at 47 with the ability to stop and figure out what I wanna do- Yeah...

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I'm, I'm having this opportunity to think back and, and start to become a generalist again.

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But I can't re- I, I mean, I, I'm thankful for every single niche that I did and, and I guess-There have been various points for me as a journalist, right, I was specializing so much that I ultimately felt like I've written every story about that thing.

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So I'd covered energy and the environment for 12 years, climate change from 2001 to 2012, and by the time I kinda hit the end of the period, I just felt like I couldn't write any more stories about it. I was just...

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I think a lot of reporters get to this point. They get tired with it, they wanna move on.

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I mean, I, I, you would see this in, in energy reporting where someone would be covering a bill, you know, from the start to the finish.

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[laughs] And, and when the bill's finally, either it dies or it passes, like the reporter's looking around at themselves like, "Well, okay, now what do I do?" You know, just gave birth to this thing.

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It's like a tour of duty. [laughs] It is. It is.

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And I guess for me, you know, I was always nimble enough to, to kinda maybe get a little bit of a sense ahead of time, okay, it's, it's, it's time for me to move on to the next thing and, and take on the next challenge.

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And, you know, I mean, that's how I ended up going from energy to the White House in 2012, and then, you know- Yeah...

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had this really fun period where I got to do, like, one-month-long investigations at Politico on one topic, and deep dive in that, become an expert on education or transportation or, uh, sexual assault in the military or the entire federal budget.

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And the more things I did, the more rounded I kept getting, which made me very attractive, like, you know, as a, for the, if you're an editor in a newsroom and you're, you need someone because there's a brand-new crisis and they don't have anybody skilled in that topic, they could s- okay, we'll grab Darren and, and, you know, give him a week and, and he'll be able to tell us exactly what, you know, w- what we need to know and what we need to write.

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And I did that over and over, and ultimately ended up in the White House [laughs] again in 2017, covering the Trump presidency and, and then the Mueller investigation.

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And, I mean, I've kind of rebranded myself of 15, 20 times in my career, pulling myself out of those niches. Yeah. Well, that's what you have to do. You do, yeah. I mean, it's- You know?... to stay fresh.

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I, I mean, it's, it, it's important to, to keep, like, reinventing and, and, and I think it's true probably in any profession, but probably more so with this one. So let's talk about your experience at, like, Insider.

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'Cause I think, you know, it's instructive, 'cause like when you join, like, that's like the thing with this, it's such a roller coaster in this industry.

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Like, I mean, nothing stays permanent for very long, and I think, like, digi- I think about digital media and, like, it's al- it's always just boom and bust.

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And it reminds me of, like, you know, early in my career I covered, like, ad agencies a lot, and ad agencies all are, were boom and bust.

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I- if, if they were, like, hot, like one thing, it just, like, declines, 'cause it's all just, like, the people there and then the people leave and they start a new agency. Mm.

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And I almost feel like i- in a previous year with institutional brands, there was so much more longevity, and when we see this now, like we see these, these, these legacy brands that

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we don't think of as having much lo- what, they're, they're, the actual what they're producing doesn't have much value necessarily, but these brands still have such, like, enduring value.

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And I feel like digital media has really not produced that enduring value in that, like, there's just less of a permanence.

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And I think it, it's interesting to see, like, the sort of, you know, everyone go through, like, cycles.

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But like, you know, I think at the time when you were joining Insider, it was, like, making a big push into, like, into Washington because, like, look, after the Axel Springer deal, like, Business Insider succeeded against a l- what a lot of people, you know, and I had, you know, doubted in some ways their approach.

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Yeah, there was a lot of, uh, ambition, I mean, to start. And, and they, I know that they'd been talking about coming into Washington for a long time, [clears throat]

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and finally pulled the trigger, you know, at a, at a moment when, [clears throat] excuse me, Trump journalism was at its peak.

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I mean, coming, this was, I, I was poached from Politico, uh, as impeachment number one was happening, the very end of 2019, early 2022, 2020, months before the pandemic even became a thing.

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And it was a very attractive experience, and, and opportunities I, like the one that I was presented with was, you know, they don't come very often to start and build something new from scratch, and that was what, uh, we were doing.

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Uh, and, and we started with gusto.

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I mean, it was hard because obviously the pandemic really takes everything that we do in terms of just interviewing new job candidates, going and doing the journalism [laughs] suddenly becomes a completely, uh, online experience.

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But it was a small, small team to begin with. And oh my God, we were producing really amazing journalism with a very small core group of people. But we had a budget. We kept growing.

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We were producing exclusive stuff, and I think maybe, you know, people weren't expecting Insider to do that.

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And, you know, using, uh, the resources we had, uh, the networks of sources we had, I mean, the Trump scoops we put up there in 2020 were, were amazing. And then we had Kamala Harris scoops as well.

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I mean, we were definitely creating a lot of buzz. And yeah, there was a ton of energy put into what we were launching there, and this for Insider at that period, uh, remember Axel Springer hadn't yet purchased- Yeah...

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Politico yet.

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It was still, uh, you know, we were, we were trying to do something new and original, and we were doing it, it's important to note, behind a paywall, which is a very different style of political journalism where you're asking people to give you, give your credit card over for, for a much cheaper experience, much less expensive experience than the Politico Pro or E&E News experience, you know, 50, 60, $70 a year.

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I mean, we were doing really well there in the, in the 2020, uh, and, you know, early 2021 period.

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But like every other news organization when, uh, President Biden came in, uh, you know, the traffic drops, the subscriptions drop, and things got a lot harder. Yeah, I mean, that's the, like, boom and bust too.

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Like, it's like you have to match up, like, the editorial model with the business model, and I don't... It's, it's, like, kinda simple, but there's, there's so many instances- Mm... where it gets misaligned. Mm-hmm.

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You know what I mean? Y- yeah. I mean, a- at Insider they preach change a lot and, and be, be, you know, adjusting to change and, and res- responding to change. [laughs] Uh-oh, that means shit's gonna be chaotic.

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[laughs] I mean, like, anytime, [laughs] anytime someone would, like, I'd, like, get an interview, I'd be like, you know, it's like, "Oh, you know," the people would ask, "Oh, what are, like, the factors of, like, success?"

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And it's like, "Oh, you need to be very nimble." And I was like, "I'm trying to tell you, things are gonna be super chaotic." [laughs] It's [laughs] It's like when the real estate people are like, "It's cozy."

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And I'm like, "Oh, that means it's tiny." Yeah, it was chaotic, but, you know, when you're a journalist- [laughs]... and you're, you know, you're...

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I mean, I would always say because I'd covered the Trump White House as a reporter-And I mean, it's important to note, I'd never managed or, or been an editor my- [chuckles] myself in my entire career.

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I'd been a reporter- Trump White House had a dyna- dynamic work- [chuckles] workplace environment, too.

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[laughs] But as a reporter, you kind of reach this threshold of tolerance of, of insanity that, you know, means that you can handle pretty much anything else in the world.

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I think, you know, I could probably fly a spaceship because I covered the Trump White House for Politico, I should add too, which is, again, about as, in terms of just velocity and intensity and pressure, that was, you know, without a doubt probably will, will go down as one of the most pressure-packed year, couple years of my life.

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And so, you know, even at, at Insider with the, with the change that you're, you know, you're dealing with, for me it was, it, you know, it wasn't ever as, as stressful as, again, the experience [chuckles] of being a White House reporter, uh- [chuckles]...

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for Politico. So I guess I had that going for me here, going into the, into the storms that we faced.

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And, you know, again, you were just trying to do great journalism and trying to re-re-re- get people to respond, and- Mm...

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you know, during that period where maybe we weren't generating the clicks that we needed to or the subscriptions we needed to, we were still push- producing amazing journalism, and I'm so proud of Conflicted Congress- Yeah...

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this project that we did, you know, which, which really won, you know, won a bunch of awards. It, it generated all kinds of debate about whether lawmakers could, should be ch- uh, buying and selling individual stocks.

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So, you know, it is that tension as we're, as we're talking about there of, you know, producing great stuff- Yeah... but dealing with the, uh- But I mean, I've... Right.

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But I think that, you know, the issue ends up becoming, and this is where the sort of misalignment being like sometimes, like, it doesn't necessarily even almost matter if you, like, you nail the content side because, like, you know, that's the, the reality in, in this market is that

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in a, in a previous era it would be like, okay, well, you can support that with advertising, but because of the ad rates have gone where they've gone, you have to drive subscriptions, but the problem ends up being, like, it, you don't, like, have control over that because people are subscribing to an entire bundle, an Insider bundle, and so you're competing with The New York Times.

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Like, and not just The New York Times Washington Bureau, The New York Times everything. [chuckles] Like, it games everything.

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And that's why, you know, I think The New York Times, I think p- you know, I think a lot of people are a little bit conflicted. On the one hand, it's like an amazing success story of getting people to pay for journalism.

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It's like, on the other hand, it's like maybe too amazingly of a success story because they're sucking a lot of the oxygen, you could argue, out of the room.

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Yeah, I think crossword puzzles are, are the key to, uh, to journalism success perhaps, and recipes.

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[laughs] [gentle music] Well, I mean, I think the, the, the real issue is, like, you know, people subscribe to an entire bundle, right?

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Yeah. And you're part of a bundle, and so, you know, people have to want that entire, you know, bundle, for lack of a better word [laughs]- Yeah, I mean-... at the end of the day...

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I mean, when you're, when you're in the newsroom, I mean, you, you know, you can't really c- I mean, these are factors so outside of your control as you're producing the content that you're producing. Yeah, I know.

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So you're just... You know, you can only do as much as you can do.

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And yeah, you know, we would constantly be talking about the algorithms, the Facebook algorithms, the Google algorithm, you know, and, and, you know, people would come in and tell us and explain, you know, we're doing what we're doing, but we can, we can up our content numbers, you know, we can keep producing stories, we can go back to tried and true, uh, you know, uh, frames of stories that will work.

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But yeah, you are ultimately, uh, competing against a much larger, uh, universe of journalism gods and, and internet gods that, uh, that, you know, it c- can make it really challenging to, you know, what I'm writing about here going forward, you know, as the journalist, and you love this profession so much and, and yet you, you know, you sh- you, you do struggle with the business model that we're talking about here because, you know, it can ultimately im- impact your, you know, your sanity [chuckles] and your day in and day out, uh, enjoyment of this, of this business.

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Yeah. So, like, w- when you, like, took a step back and, like, deciding what you wanna do with your career, like, what were you, what were you thinking?

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'Cause I mean, like, it is, like, I don't know, you get to a point in, in the profession where you're like, "Oh, my God, I'm in too deep at this point." [laughs] Yeah.

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I, I mean, for me, you know, I, I lost my job at the end of October, uh, right a week before the midterm elections, the day after Pelosi's husband was attacked and Elon Musk took over Twitter.

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So, you know, it was a l- it was a shock, and to suddenly not have [chuckles]

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Slack or email or deadlines, and really pulling back, for me, this was the first time in 22 years that I was no longer on [chuckles] deadline and, you know, heading into my first election where I had no responsibilities.

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I ended up, you know, having a couple of weeks, months of real intense soul searching.

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Right afterwards I had a death in the family, so like, you know, takes you totally away from journalism and takes you away from the election, and I'm down in South Florida, for example, on election night and, you know, there's a hurricane coming to where, where I was, and so, you know, I wasn't even paying attention to the election.

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We were more focused on whether there was gonna be a storm, uh, hitting where I was staying with my parents.

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So, you know, pulling out of the daily news cycle and, and again, no longer reading the news the way that as I, I, all of my muscle memory is tr- trained to really helped, uh...

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You know, I found myself reading, rereading old creative writing textbooks that I had from college by Natalie Goldberg and John Gardner, just kind of tr- journaling and thinking about, what do I really wanna do?

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And I, don't get me wrong, I was applying for jobs as a reporter and an editor pretty quickly, but I knew after so many years of doing this and, and paying my dues and working really hard in a lot of different parts of the newsroom, like, I didn't wanna just jump into any job, and I wanted to give myself the time to think thr- think it through and figure out, what do I really, really wanna do?

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What will make me happiest? And obviously, you go into the holiday period, it's not the best time to be looking for jobs in journalism.

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Also, lots of news organizations are laying off people left and right, so it's not exactly the best time to just be jumping into a, a news organization, and hiring takes time as well.I don't know, this idea came to me to launch a Substack talking to a number of people like yourself who are in the Substack world and realizing, okay, I've always really wanted to write a column.

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I've always really wanted to also pay tribute to this business that I love so much. Uh, this title, Love Journalism, you know, literally, uh, was gonna be my memoir title, but I just...

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You know, and I'm struggling to write that, and so I figured why not put this front and center and out there and, and use this as the through line and speak to journalists and sort of become a place where we could have insights and ideas and interviews and, and inspiration about journalism, and see if I can't create a network where, you know...

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There, there's so many interesting relationships in journalism between journalists and journalism, between journalists and their sources, between journalists and their audience, and that's what I'm hoping to sort of speak to here going forward with a, with a weekly column with more stuff to come as well that will explore all of these things and, and the relationships 'cause I, as I talk to my colleagues- Yeah...

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and friends, everyone's struggling with this right now. It's just amazing, you know, the... Whether it be at, you know, serious levels of struggling to, you know, are we leaving the business?

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Don't get me wrong, there are people just coming into their careers right now, too, who, who are looking ahead- [laughs]...

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to 20, 30, 40 years more, or 50 more years of journalism and a completely different model I'm sure than what we are at right now- Yeah...

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and certainly different than where I was when I got into the business back in the late '90s. Yeah. I did, like, an interview on Friday with, like, a Columbia J-School student. Mm. It was great. She called me M- Mr.

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Morrissey at one point. [laughs] I was like, "Oh my God, please. Let's not." [laughs] This is, like, Friday afternoon.

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I was like, okay, it's been, like, an okay week and [laughs] like, you know, some ups and downs, but at least it's over, and then I'm being called Mr. Morrissey. [laughs] I'm like, "Oh, God."

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[laughs] But I was, like, talking to her about, like, you know, actually going into the profession after she had, like, asked me about why BuzzFeed's business model [laughs] was not working.

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[laughs] So, so I was like, wow, this is a tough introduction to the profession- [laughs]... but a needed one.

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But I was like, you know, I still think it's a great profession, and particularly I don't have any regrets going into it. It's been, like, up and down.

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You lose jobs, you know, places c- there's so much out of your control. I'm sh- I... And I don't even know if it's that much different in other professions. It feels more acute in journalism. But, you know...

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And you become a survivor at the end of the day.

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Like, [laughs] you know, I, I think back 'cause when I was talking to that, uh, student, 'cause I went to, to Columbia J-School too, and I think, you know, just that day I'd been, like, on a text chain with a couple of people from...

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or an email chain from, from my class, and we were, like, talking about ourselves as the survivors because n- like, 80% of the people had left the profession, which is sort of depressing, but at the same time it's just the reality of it.

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Yeah. I, I mean, I hope... I, I've thought about this a lot, and obviously, you know, this, this is born from me, this, this Substack out of, like, am I really gonna leave the profession?

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And I didn't wanna leave the profession. I wanted to stay in something journalism-related.

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And journalism for me, journalism education, journalism training feels like the logical next place to go in a career when you've reported and edited and worked, you know, closely with so many editors and worked with, watched the younger generations coming up behind you and paying it forward, which I do see as sort of, like, what the next step for me in my career is, is, you know, what can I pass on?

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I mean, for the last two and a half years at Insider it was sharing sources, you know, names. Hey, you know, call this person up. I used to talk to them- Yeah...

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for 5, 10 years and, and they'll, they'll, they'll help you out and get you started.

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But to something else you were just saying, I mean, there is absolutely something to be said for, like, the camaraderie and the, the newsroom camaraderie that happens.

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I mean, I think of each one of my White House tours as literally like a tour of duty.

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And, you know, even my going way back to covering a football team, like, you know, you cover a season, you kind of feel like you get a little patch on your shoulder, you know, that, that represents- [laughs]...

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that, that band of brothers that you, you know, that you were a part of there for that year, and I've got, you know, a number of those sort of stripes on my shoulder. And, you know, just for the Super Bowl here last...

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just in the last couple days I had a former journalist over, you know, and we were reminiscing about...

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This is someone I, I know who I worked with way back in Olympia 25 years ago in the business who's out of it now, but, you know, you see the light and the passion still talking about journalism 15, 20 years later.

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And I...

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That's something I was, I hope to capture here with my, with my Substack, is bringing in back, you know, the, the journalism alumni because I think the more ex-journalists you talk to, you know, they still think of themselves as journalists, and I really think that there's something to capture in that.

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There's some s- you know, there's some inspiration to capture in that. There's something to reignite, to light back up again, and journalism does create [laughs] like, like love. I mean, it creates this passion, this...

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I mean, the serotonin, like, literally comes out of your brain as you're chasing after stories, and I think even just reengaging that helps I think make us all kind of maybe a little bit more happy in our lives and at least for the ex-journalists who wanna think back on the better parts of their careers- Yeah...

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and maybe that'll help a little bit. I get the serotonin when I finally published. That's when [laughs] that's when I get the rush. But that's me. When, uh...

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Do you think of this as, like, a project or a business, or are you unsure? I'm a little unsure. I mean, I have other opportunities.

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I think I see this as one of, you know, couple of eggs that I have in the basket right now. Yeah. So this is the beginning. I...

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You get fired from a job, you lose your job, you know, there's a couple different ways to go at it. One is the way of you tweet about it right away, and, "Hey, I'm looking for work." I did not do that.

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I, I ended up going the other direction and, and tried to go old school and spent the last- They got that open to work thing, like, on LinkedIn. [laughs] I didn't even do that. Yeah.

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I might have accid- I might have accidentally done that one- [laughs]... without, without realizing I did it. It's like a flag. [laughs] [gentle music] Like, but I kinda just pulled back. I mean, I think it's good.

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I was like- Yeah... okay, why not, like, you know, do it? I think it's good. You never know what- I'm proud, like, that... what other opportunities might come at you.

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[laughs] I'm probably gonna turn it on tomorrow or, you know, in the next couple days for sure 'cause I think I see this as a way to, hey, announce, "Look, I'm, I'm out there and I'm available. This could be something.

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I don't know. We'll find out." Yeah. Yeah. That's what I think is the amazing thing with, like... with newsletters in general. Doesn't have to be Substack. But, like- [laughs]...

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yeah, they're the perfect for-You know, anyone who's in a, pretty much any profession, to me, can, like, use this to, like... It should replace the resume to some degree. Like, I don't wanna see a resume.

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I would-- And particularly now, like, I remember, like, being an editor, I'm like, "Oh, I would, I would love if everyone has..." 'Cause, like, I don't know what the editor did and what the editor didn't do.

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[laughs] Like, you know what I mean? Mm-hmm. Like, I'm like, "What am I getting myself into here?" And there's always like, "Oh, so yeah, your editor did a lot more than I thought."

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[laughs] But, you know, I think it's, like, a great way to, like, share, no matter what, like, your thinking and, and your approach to things.

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And, you know, some people will make it into a business, some people it'll be, like, a short-term project, and I think that's fine. And I think when you think about...

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At, at least when I think about, like, the impermanence of a lot of digital media, I'm like, "Well, why wouldn't there be, you know, all sorts of different things, whether it's, like, a business or a project or something in between?"

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I'll admit that I didn't really know what Substack was until a couple of weeks ago when, you know, a former reporter who worked for me, uh, told me about it and was like, "Darren, it's kinda like Twitter, but much longer, and it's just yours and, and maybe people will pay for it too.

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Or a longer version of Facebook, but it's your channel." And that got me thinking and, and really actually first-- where my head first went was, "You know what?

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Actually, I think I might have invented Substack myself in the late nineties when I was traveling around, uh- [laughs]...

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Japan and Asia, and I was sending out a giant email to all my friends and family that was a, you know, a BCC. And, you know, they were getting an update on what I was doing.

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They weren't paying me for it, obviously, and there was no way to get payments in '97, '98.

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But, you know, throughout my journalism career, I've been, you know, collecting emails and then sending out my stories and, and doing that in much smaller version.

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And so all this is is really just collecting all those [chuckles] emails in one place and, and, uh, and then blasting out, you know, basically now, you know, whatever I wanna say. Yeah, and without a middleman.

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And obviously, I've been a reporter wondering as well, uh, you know, wa- you know, sending a story- Yeah...

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up, up the chain at various places and then, you know, having it sent back and, and, uh, yeah, this will definitely be authentically me, no doubt about it, and that's kinda cool and exciting here, uh, and one of the reasons I'm doing this.

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Yeah. Yeah, and I think we'll see, I think we'll see more. Like, I don't think it's the future of, like, journalism or anything. Anyone who says there's the future- [laughs]... it's like, "No. Sorry."

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[laughs] Seen that, yeah, yeah.

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But yeah, it'll lead to some, some interesting, like, combinations, and I think we're already seeing, uh, you know, a lot of, you know, publications that grow out of it, whether it's the Free Press or others.

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I don't think the things...

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You know, if you look at, like, you know, The Dispatch and Bulwark and, and stuff, I-- 'cause I think it's particularly interesting to me how Washington, D.C., I had always thought of it as kind of like a, a bit of a backwater for the media business, has [chuckles] become like the most vibrant area, I think, of, like, journalism news models- Yeah...

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in some ways, because where things are going fits perfectly with where, you know, Washington publications often sit. You know? People pay for, for a, either... I don't know. I'll go with you.

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What do you think about, [chuckles] about that? Uh, because I do think that, like, it's an interesting comeback for Washington, D.C. media.

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Yeah, I mean, you know, y- I'm just thinking Punchbowl is what comes to mind right now and, and, you know- Yeah...

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a, a team of former colleagues of mine who, um, are doing [chuckles] amazing work and making money and, and, and quite successful and found a niche, you know, that grew out of a niche that they were already, you know, filling at Politico in, in, in their congressional coverage and just bore in on that.

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And, I mean, it kinda goes back to E&E News and what was so successful about E&E in 2000, 2001.

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You know, one of the early cutting-edge digital models that was a D.C.-based model charging a lot of money for subscriptions online and, you know, moved completely online in like '04, '05 when they finally got rid of, you know, that, that Monday morning, uh, print edition.

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And yeah, that was, I think, probably one of the earliest successful, you know, paid subscription models. Obviously, a trade publication version of it, and now it's, you know, in the Politico Axel Springer hands as well.

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Yeah, okay. All right, let's, let's leave it there. Where should people find the Substack? It hasn't launched yet, so I don't know the URL.

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Yeah, darrensamuelsohn.substack.com is a name that the Substack people tell me is, is the one to share. I'll be blasting this out to the world- Okay...

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Valentine's Day, and hopefully sharing it far and wide on social media as well. But, uh, you can find me at darrensamuelsohn.com. That'll kick you over to, uh, to the Substack.

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And remember, my last name has an H at the end. And yeah, I'm very excited to, to give this a go- Awesome... and jump off the high dive. Awesome. Thanks so much for listening.

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If you like this podcast, I hope you do, please check out another podcast I do. It's called People vs.

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Algorithms, where each week I'm joined by Troy Young and Alex Schleifer, and we connect the dots at the intersection of tech, business, and culture. So check it out wherever you listen to your podcasts. It's People vs.

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Algorithms. Also, big thanks to Jay Sparks of Podhelp Us for producing this show. Find out how Jay can help you with your podcast or to launch a podcast by visiting podhelp.us.

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