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[on-hold music] So our print business is a lot more balanced than, again, your typical publisher. Okay. So, like, what are the percentage breakdowns in those three areas? Oh, you really think I'm gonna tell you?

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[laughs] Yeah. We're on a roll. We got momentum. We're on a roll.

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[on-hold music] Welcome to "The Rebooting Show." I'm Brian Morrissey. Always like to hear from people.

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If you wanna send me a note, that would be great. My email is bmorrissey@gmail.com. This week I'm talking to Bonnie Kintzer, the CEO of TMB, which is formerly known as Trusted Media Brands.

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I was going on Bonnie's LinkedIn, so this is a lot of pressure on you, Bonnie, 'cause it said that you have the charm of a talk show host and the toughness of a drill sergeant. So- [laughs]...

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we're gonna have to s- we're gonna have to put that to a test.

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[laughs] Anyway, Bonnie has, has led and is continuing to lead the transformation of a media company that, that you probably most know for its ownership of the Reader's Digest brand.

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It's now a collection of lifestyle brands. This is an entire portfolio focused on hobbies and enthusiast areas. Brands like The Pet Collective, Taste of Home, The Healthy.

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Recently, I guess in the last year, g- that expanded with the acquisition of Jukin and also Fail Army. I think, I guess Pet Collective came from that, right? Yes. Okay.

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And also, I mean, you guys are making big investments overall, uh, uh, as far as from what I see, and we'll get into it, into video and streaming, and also of course in the commerce, everyone's favorite new area.

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And so wanna talk about all this, Bonnie. Welcome. Great. Thank you. Thanks so much for having me, Brian.

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So I, I wanna start with the idea of the transformation because, you know, I had a, on, uh, Zilla Bing-Thorne from Future a couple weeks ago.

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And, you know, uh, there's echoes when you, when I sort of go back through the TMB story, right? And, you know, Zilla really came in from, really from the outside.

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But, like, you, you had worked for Reader's Digest for many years, but, like, you know, you were gonna lead the transformation of this, of this brand in a different way. Explain that going back to, like...

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'Cause in 2013, you know, if we were doing this podcast, like, a little less than a decade ago, it'd be a different type of podcast. Right. So yes, I had been with the company for about eight years, and I left in 2007.

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And I did board work and consulting work, and I ultimately led another turnaround. And then I was called by the former CEO and said, "You know, how would you like to go back?" And I was like, "Who goes back?" You know?

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[laughs] And the company had been through two bankruptcies in five years, so again, the question, you know, who goes back?

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But I actually think it was pretty smart of them to bring somebody back because I had a lot of pride and a lot of really great experiences in my eight years that I had been with the company previously.

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And I absolutely came back with a mission because I felt that in the seven years that I was gone, the company had been, you know, pretty close to destroyed.

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I mean, it's hard to go into two bankruptcies in five years, right? One might- Yeah... one might con- that to be an, uh, you know, an achievement.

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And so I, you know, I spent time with the investors and the current CEO, and I really felt like these assets had a lot of upside.

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They had very little, you know, digital presence, and they still had really beloved products.

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And I think sometimes we get confused about what the investor market thinks about or the ad market versus what consumers think.

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And in this instance, there was such a strong consumer relationship that I felt between that and the fact that there was unmonetized digital traffic, that I could really make a go of it, and that was a, uh, the beginning of why I, I started considering coming back.

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Yeah. So but like, uh, I always think that you can go in a couple different directions with these kind of legacy brands. And, like, Reader's Digest is, like, it's definitely a legacy brand, right? I mean, like, 1922.

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I mean- Mm... I'm, I'm not young or anything like this, but I remember [laughs] like, you know, seeing it in, like, uh, my grandparents' house and stuff like this, and I'm sure you hear this all the time, right?

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And, uh, uh, probably when I, when... If I look down the list of, like, sort of brands that at least in my mind would be, like, least well-positioned for, like, a digital future, Reader's Digest would be near the top.

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Well, I'm glad I didn't consult you on whether or not I should [laughs] I know. [laughs] So tell me why I'm wrong. What did you see here that, like, why did you...

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You know, look, it's normal for brands to go through, like, a life cycle, right? And I don't mean it complimentary. Like, there's a way to go where you just sort of, like, milk a brand that- Yeah...

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is- No, no, and that was never on my agenda to milk. I mean, I absolutely- Yeah...

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I think, you know, maybe, Brian, it was because I had been here before that I knew that, you know, we snarky New Yorkers or cool West Coasters, like, we're not this country.

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And the truth is that Reader's Digest is a fabric of the United States, and that when you travel with that little magazine, you know, people will look at you, and they will make a comment, and they will start chatting with you because that is a magazine that's near and dear to their heart even still today, so not just their grandparents.

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So I definitely knew that. What I didn't know, uh, right, the big question for me was, okay, this company had run out of money, and they stopped marketing to consumers.

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Reader's Digest was posting one article a day online. So the question was, if we go out and speak to them, if we, you know, create a lot more content, will they care, right?

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And so that, that was really the question in 2014 and 2015. And so that was really the investment. The investment was, okay, let's go back out in the marketplace and let them know we're alive and we're selling products.

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Let's invest in content. And at one point we were putting out probably about 1,000 pieces a month. And lo and behold, the ROI was through the roof. And I remember our board saying, "Can you spend more money?"

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Which never happens. And so it was great. And if you think about it, right, the Reader's Digest content, the short, pithy pieces are exactly what people want online. You know, they want an answer to their question.

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They want to be entertained. Well, that is Reader's Digest. And so that was job number one, and we did that in 2014 and 2015. And that and some other things, you know, really drove the turnaround of the company. Yeah.

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The transformation plan had many different components to it. You know, first was people, right?

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And because I had been there before, there were actually a lot of people that were still around.And I really wanted to understand why anyone had stayed, right? Because you asked yourself, like, "Why would anybody stay?"

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And so I met with about a hundred of the four hundred employees at that time, and that was what I asked them, like, "Why are you here?"

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[upbeat music] Okay, so Bonnie, give me like a broader view of the transformation plan, particularly, you know, the aspect of breaking, you know, of verticalization, because you manage several brands now beyond Reader's Digest.

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Yes. I think with the original plan when I first came in, you know, I had, I had multiple steps that I shared with the entire company, right? It was, did we have the right people? Did we have the right culture?

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Did we have the right assets, right? So, you know, were there assets that we should no longer have, and were there assets that we should bring into the company? And what did we need to stop doing?

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Because I think when you're doing a turnaround, you have to really have incredible amount of focus. We also needed to protect the core at that point.

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You know, now I'm talking, right, eight years ago, the core was print, and that needed to be protected so that it wouldn't hemorrhage cash.

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And we needed to build the best in class digital because everything, every system had to be rebuilt in the company, right? You can imagine if you don't have money, you don't have the most up-to-date tech.

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And that was ended up being a great opportunity because we were able to leapfrog and move quickly, and we could afford the things that we probably couldn't have afforded five or ten years ago.

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So that was the fundamental of the plan. In terms of the brands, I mean, I always looked at it as a portfolio.

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It was one of the reasons why I changed the company in 2015, because we were always in this defensive posture of, "Oh, we're not just Reader's Digest." Well, that's kind of negative to Reader's Digest.

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And yet it was important to say, "Hey, we are a portfolio of brands." I mean, Taste of Home was bought by the company in 2002, right? The company should've changed their name then.

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Changing that was like that first step, and I remember thinking, "Oh, I wonder how Reader's Digest employees would-- will feel about this."

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But they were fine because they also knew that they were part of The Family Handyman and Taste of Home and Birds and Blooms, and that these were important brands and important parts of the company.

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So I think by giving all of those brands, if you will, equal billing, right, they were all trusted media brands, we began to have that portfolio mentality.

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About four years ago, I would say, I thought, "Oh my gosh, we just either need to be sold or buy something," because you get to a point where we had paid up all of our debt, which was incredible for, you know, a twice bankrupt company.

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We are growing top line, we are growing bottom line, but we just-- The print was still so big that no matter how well we did digitally, we couldn't grow more than a few percentage points on the top line, and that wasn't good enough for, for me.

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And so went back to our investors and they said, "Go look. Go find something. We'll listen." And that was a big turning point to expand, you know, that verticalization or having more brands in the portfolio.

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Okay, so what happened then? Like, 'cause like going back to like, let's say 2018, I mean, print was still the majority of revenue? Or at like how much- Yeah... like was print- Definitely... uh, the part of the business?

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I mean, it would have been definitely the majority, but, but the fast-growing was obviously the digital ad revenue.

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And, you know, we launched Do It Yourself University with The Family Handyman, and we digitized The Family Handyman project plans, and so we were also tinkering and playing around in digital product areas.

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So yeah, 2018, and I'm going out, you know, meeting with a lot of different companies, and it's hard.

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You know, it looks easy, but, you know, if you, if you think you have the backing to go and buy something, but it's not easy 'cause you need to buy a company whose business model you believe in that fits, somehow fits in your company, and then, and culturally.

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And then I remember, you know, there would be companies I'd meet, and I'm like, "Wow, I, I just-- these are not my people." Like, we're a very, I call ourselves high competency, low ego, you know?

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It's like, "You want drama? Go home. We got a lot of work to do, people." And I wanted that kind of scrappiness. I wanted people that thought being scrappy was, was cool, you know? And so it took me a very long time.

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I mean, it really took me three years, which was, you know, which was hard. But I met Jukin during COVID, which, you know, was bizarre, right? So I met them in January of '21. We weren't, you know, vaccinated yet.

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And so we started this process on video, and I remember meeting the two co-CEOs and thinking, "Wow, I can't believe I get such a strong feeling of who they are on video."

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I wouldn't have thought that was possible, and certainly if it weren't for COVID, I never would've begun a deal without meeting someone in person. Yeah.

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And so for those that don't know, I mean, I mean, Jukin licenses a lot of like the UGC, like viral videos- Yes... that look very awesome. Yes. They are, they're the leader in UGC video.

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They have people watching video literally twenty-four hours a day in LA, Romania and India, and they look for those really amazing clips. And those clips could be for advertis-advertisers.

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They could be for FailArmy show or the Pet Collective show. They could be for any brand socially.

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And so they have a wide purview of what they're looking for, and I think by getting that global perspective, they really find amazing videos e-every day. Yeah.

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So tell, e-explain to me, how do these assets all fit together?

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So I love that question because I know for some people it's not apparent, but for me, they fit together because they're always thinking about the consumer first, and they have a big UGC component.

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So sticking with the UGC that we just talked about, well, Taste of Home is all UGC, right?

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We have our audience sending in recipes that they love, along with a story, and then, yes, our Test Kitchen in Milwaukee is making those recipes and making sure they're good enough for our entire audience, and we're photographing them.

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But it starts with UGC. Most popular section of Family Handyman is the Handy Hints coming from our audience. Reader's Digest, I'm sure you think immediately of the Joke sections. They're coming from our audience.

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And so there was this-- We really respected and have reverence for UGC because it is all about community, which leads me to the other point, which is it's all about community.And that, you know, for a lot of companies in media, that's just not the case.

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But we were always a consumer-first company, and so is Jukin. And so just those things about being audience first and being committed to UGC had enormous amount of overlap. And then they were...

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Then there was the culture, you know, of the people and the way they operated. And I can tell you, 13 months later, almost 14 months, it's been an incredible integration. Yeah.

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When you say, like, audience first, 'cause, I mean, it sounds, like, obvious, like, with publishers that they... Of course, they'd be audience first, but that's not always the case.

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So I think for, you know, TMB before the acquisition, because most of our revenue came from consumers, unlike probably- Yeah... 99% of other media companies, we had to be consumer first, and that...

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So that's the genesis of the company. That's the DNA. So I do think that we are quite distinct when comparing to other companies. Okay, so you acquired Jukin and, like, what's the revenue portfolio then?

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So now we're a video player, right? So before this, we could never ROI video creation in mass, right? Mm-hmm. We had video, of course, but nothing really big.

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And so that was all of a sudden, again, so you'd say, what did we have in common? Well, what didn't we have in common? Jukin knew how to do video in mass. TMB knew how to do websites, right?

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Jukin really has no websites to speak of. And so you think about what it means to take those complementary skills and apply them to each other.

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So all of a sudden now we've just launched At Home with Family Handyman, so the first streaming channel for our legacy brands, and, you know, we're working now on a digital strategy for Pet Collective, and you see how the magic happens.

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So if you have those core things in common and then you have this cultural simpatico, you can then put the talent on both sides of the house, and of course we're creating one house, and really make it work for the previous companies' brands.

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[upbeat music] So, but, like, the revenue streams, like, when you're looking at the business, I mean, how do you bucket it out?

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So I look at the business in three segments, and within those three segments, there are actually two distinct revenue streams. So the first segment is the social and streaming segment, right?

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And that includes what you would call old Jukin, right, which we don't really call them Jukin anymore. So Jukin now only applies to the licensing business. So this is all of our streaming.

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Whether it's Family Handyman or Fail Army, this is all of our social business and our licensing business. And so that is obviously very fast-growing and very significant.

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The second segment that I look at is the web, right? And, and in web, that means, you know, the websites and it means newsletters and anything that happens in that digital ecosystem.

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And within that, the two main drivers are, of course, advertising and affiliate. So affiliate revenue, very important. So our content, we have a lot of trust across all of our brands, and so being able to...

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You know, the editors write that content. It's not coming from marketing. It really is about editorial content that matters to our readers.

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And then the ser- third segment is the print segment, and within that are magazines and books. And people don't realize that we're a very big book publisher.

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We're probably the largest in the direct-to-consumer book publishing space. And particularly in cookbooks, this is a very significant business.

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And, you know, people at Taste of Home love to get those annual Christmas books or best of recipes. And so our print business is a lot more balanced than, again, your typical publisher. Okay.

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So, like, what are the percentage breakdowns in those three areas? Oh, you really think I'm gonna tell you? [laughs] Yeah. We're on a roll. We got momentum. We're on a roll.

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[laughs] So- I mean, I asked you about the revenue segments, and then you talked about the Jukin business, so I was like, "Okay, I'll give her this answer," but now we're gonna get back to it.

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[laughs] Well, I'll tell you now that print is now less than half of our business. [laughs] And, you know, that's really exciting. Yeah, yeah.

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And, you know- But there are also different parts of print, like the book publishing stuff. Like, I know... Like, where do you sell these? Are these sold in, like, supermarkets and, like, stuff, like, by-

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So our- 'Cause, like, there's lucrative aspects of print still. There is. There really are. I... Thank you. I couldn't agree more. So our dir- we have a big direct-to-consumer book business- Yeah...

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which means that we're selling it through the web or the mail, and then we have a trade book business for all of our brands.

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And you just think of the power of the Reader's Digest brand, and if those editors are gonna write a book, it, it matters. Taste of Home's air fryer book, it's always in the, you know, the top publishing.

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So we do well on both sides of books. But I think people don't realize what an important part of our- Yeah... business that is. Yeah. I mean, air fryer was probably my b- one of my best pandemic purchases, so- Exactly...

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I'm in the market for it. We're here for you. [laughs] Appreciate that, Body. Oh. This is why you're audience-focused.

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Okay, so within the web segment, I'm guessing that, like, commerce is growing a lot faster, is probably the fastest-growing area. Fastest-growing but small. Yeah.

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We definitely started late in that regard, so we'll have a very fast ramp-up from that. We brought in new chief marketing officer that c- came from the commerce world, so that's allowed us- Mm-hmm...

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to really move very quickly this year. So w- how are you thinking of your strategy in that? 'Cause I always think when people talk commerce, I'm like, are we talking about an SEO strategy?

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'Cause a lot of people's commerce, it's an outgrowth of an SEO strategy.I mean, I-I look at it as a content and a relationship strategy.

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You know, if you look at something like the Family Handyman, there's very little authority on the web, right?

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So you could, of course, decide to listen to Home Depot or Lowe's on what to buy, but that's not always comfortable for the consumer.

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You think about Family Handyman has tremendous domain authority from a technical perspective, but it has great brand authority from being a seventy-year-old brand that people love.

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The irony is that we have our own workshop. We test products all the time. Edit- our editors choose what products to use all the time. We write about them in print.

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Well, gee, you know, we can do the same thing on web, and we could do a lot more. So we have, like, this sub-brand called Stuff We Love and talk about what the editors really like.

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So I look at it as an extension of our content strategy. I think same thing for Taste of Home. You know, they... If you're ever in Milwaukee, you're invited. I mean, it's pretty cool to watch them test products.

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Of course, the... Well, I was there last week, but the time before that I was there, and they were testing mustard and icing and pumpkin puree. I was extremely disappointed. But they test everything.

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And so if they're testing it for themselves and what should go in their recipes, isn't it just a natural extension? You know, when they buy an air fryer for their kitchen, they're testing multiple air fryers.

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So I look at it as a very natural, genuine extension, which is a good thing for us. You know, the same on Reader's Digest. People trust Reader's Digest.

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If they're gonna write about a home security system, people will believe it. And again, this is coming from our editors. So I look at it as a natural extension of content creation. Yeah.

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I think by hour two of the mustard testing, I would probably reassess. [laughs] I mean, they were using pretzels as the tasting aid. Oh, you know, that'll help. You know, [laughs] so I did not partake.

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I had to draw the line. So yeah, so I mean, where do you see, like, you know, commerce netting out versus, like, display advertising, for instance?

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Because, I mean, look, a lot of people are moving into, and some of this is a reaction to, you know, just display business is difficult, and it's gonna get more difficult.

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The loss of a lot of signals for targeting and for attribution. But how do you view... Because I think everyone's moving into commerce, you know, to various degrees.

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I mean, you said you guys were a little bit late to the party. But I'm interested in see- in, in wondering how critical that ends up becoming for the business, you know, versus, like, a nice incremental stream.

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I think, you know, we look at it, our buckets would be probably slightly different. So we would be looking at branded content as its own bucket. We would be looking at programmatic. We would be looking at Slay.

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We'd be looking at affiliates. So it would be really across all of those. We see the greatest areas of growth in the branded content and the affiliate, so those would be two areas I would say that we're leaning into.

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That, again, we were probably late on the branded content road as well. So I would say there's a lot of advantages to being a swift follower.

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I think we're good at that, and to really see, you know, what the market's doing and what makes the most sense for us to jump into. Yeah.

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And I wanna get into the video part, but just to stay on this bucket for a couple minutes. The programmatic part, right?

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So, like, you know, I think this industry loves to talk about programmatic nonstop and, you know, the death of the third-party cookie, et cetera, et cetera. How critical is programmatic to the future of this business?

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I think programmatic is critical because of the data overlays. A-and I also think that with the death of the cookie, it's why it's so important to have strong brands and intentional content, right?

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Our content already tells you that somebody is interested in cooking. Somebody wants to make this recipe. Someone wants to be, uh, is very interested in home improvement. So I think that will help us. And I...

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You know, we've always been a data-driven company, right back to the roots of Reader's Digest. And so those data overlays are important both for programmatic and for direct and for affiliate, for sure. Yeah.

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So what are you doing on the first-party data front specifically? So first party, we are doing more polls and quizzes [laughs] and getting people.

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We also have an enormous database on the offline business, and so bringing that into our online data lake, working with Primitive, which we feel great about, which allows us to have good access to data.

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And we continue to look at the data that's available to us already and to create more and more of those models.

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We've always been a statistical modeling company, so we're looking at first party and third party and making sure that we can deliver back to the ad market and to ourselves because remember, that data is used for our own consumer marketing as well, which probably makes us better thinkers.

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[gentle music] I would guess, like, that, like, the sort of open exchange is not as important as it once was and now...

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'Cause I'm wondering, like, how basically publishers make this transition because anytime any changes take place, whether it's driven by regulation or by, you know, technology companies, I mean, a lot of disruption comes from different areas.

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So I'm guessing that the open programmatic part is going to decline in importance compared to the first-party part. Is that right? I don't know the answer, actually. Um, I think that- Okay...

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we all have to pay a lot of attention to everything that's going on and to be able to move quickly. I mean, we talk about that a lot internally, right?

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Because the market is moving quickly, and I think it's important to assess and to move, and I think our team is incredibly good at that, so that if something doesn't work, you know, that's why you have to have multiple streams of revenue, whether it's within programmatic or within print.

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It's like, you know, where's the money, if you will? Where are the people? So I think that we'll assess, and I don't wanna make a blanket statement 'cause I don't think I know the answer to that. Okay.

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So let's get into video and streaming 'cause this is a big bet for- Yes... TMV. Yes? Yes. Okay. Explain the strategy here.

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So our strategy on streaming is to, you know, continue to be within the top shows for Fail Army and The Pet Collective. Those are two of the top streaming channels around the world.

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And to be careful and pick the new areas to enter. So we've decided to go first with Family Handyman, and our channel is called At Home with Family Handyman, and also brings us into more original content.

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So while we still love the UGC, we do think that it's important to have original. And that's also happening on The Pet Collective's and Fail Army, but even more so with At Home with Family Handyman.

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So our entire content budget this year is actually triple the prior year. So we're really, we are leaning in. We are making sure that we have the right content to bring to the marketplace under, under our brands.

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So we'll have this great pet palaces show on At Home [laughs] with the Family Handyman on how to build these great pet houses, which people love, and people are actually, you know, doing those things.

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So I think that you'll see more of that for us, and that's where you'll see a lot of our in-investment going.

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O-On the social side, which is obviously very different than streaming, we work with every major platform, and we lean in there, too, really to see, you know, what's working, what it is that people want to see more of, and again, creating more content.

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We also have put the, the TMV brands, the former TMV brands, under the Jukin social team so that, you know, they are best in class on social.

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So let them do that and lean in for Taste of Home and Reader's Digest and Family Handyman.

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So again, this year, our fiscal year began July one, you know, very much lean in, testing, learning so that we can see tremendous growth on the social side for those brands.I think also what happens in this marketplace is that it's good to have more brands, right?

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It's good to go back to YouTube and to Snap with more brands that you know how to bring an audience around.

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And so again, by using the talents of Jukin with the strength of the legacy brands, I think what you'll see is a tremendous amount of social and streaming growth in the business.

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But, I mean, the streaming business is going through its own change right now, right? Yes.

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It seems like the land grab phase is ending, if not ended, and I mean, overall I think in the economy it's less about growth and more about the crazy thing like profits. So I think that can cut both ways, right?

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You know, there, there was a time where everyone was rushing to, to create IP because a lot of people were out there looking for it to license it. Like, how are you seeing the market conditions? Yeah.

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No, I think that's a great point. I mean, one of the things we're seeing is people coming to us to help them launch their channels because they don't even have relationships with distribution.

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And if you don't have relationships, it's really hard to get a channel, if you will. So that's been a real positive for us.

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I think the other positive is there are just more minutes being watched, and we obviously benefit from that. So I think, you know, it's a question, right, of will we launch a Taste of Home channel, for instance.

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So we'll probably do something like kitchen renovations with Taste of Home on At Home with Family Handyman as a way to gauge interest.

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So I think one of the real advantages we have is that we have these channels out there, we have Weather Spy, we have People Are Awesome, and we can then test other ideas live, which other publishers wouldn't be able to.

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And I would say, even though you didn't ask me this question, but I'll share it with [laughs] you, that in the way we look at the business, it's like a giant wheel, right? And we have four very meaningful buckets.

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We have a lot of people in streaming, we have a lot of people in social, we have a lot of people in print, and we have a lot of people in web.

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And so for us, the way to win this battle is two ways, or actually three ways around that wheel. One is content driving around that wheel, and the other is audience, and the third is contributors.

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And so that is the basis of our strategy for the next three years, is how do we build great competency in all three of those buckets. And each three of them have their own challenges, but with incredible upside.

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So the other thing, though, on a lot of people's minds obviously are the economic conditions. I don't know. Every time I, like, open any sort of news app, [laughs] it's, like, a little bit alarming about what's coming.

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[laughs] And I have no idea if it will or not. How are you modeling 2023, and how much have you changed your forecast because of, you know, inflation and rates continuing to go up?

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I consider the situation potentially alarming as well, and I think anyone who's not paying attention has [laughs] their head firmly buried in the sand.

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So our fiscal year began July 1, and so we have a budget for the year. We are looking at what the likely scenario is going to be already.

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We do expect to see continued softness in rates, and we are looking at, you know, what the implications are. I mean, in that way, I think we're a very disciplined business.

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If the revenue comes down, you gotta figure out what you're willing to live or not, not live with. We obviously wanna protect our growth initiatives. We're not cutting back on the launch of At Home with Family Handyman.

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You know, that's an important bet for us. But we are looking at other areas. We've already hired 100 people in the last 12 months. We were gonna hire another 100. We probably will not. We'll hire a fraction of that.

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And I think that's just prudent, and if the market conditions get better, then we're happy to add back those additional headcount.

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I also think one thing we really have going for us, I just got back from India a couple of weeks ago. We have a big operation in India, and so we have over 100 people there. They are incredibly smart and talented.

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They do a lot of our video editing and our content acquisition, and we can lean in and, and use them more. They're a very important part of our company.

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People ask me, like, "What was the biggest surprise in the acquisition?" I always say, "Well, I didn't realize how important India was." [laughs] And so we've- [laughs] Yeah, exactly...

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leaned on that, and we just signed a lease for 25,000 square feet so that our people are in a really great area and have what they need to do even more work, and it's a really exciting place.

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And so we'll lean more into India a- as a way to get great cap talent, and obviously the cost structure is much lower there. Yeah. So, like, a downturn obviously will hit advertising, right?

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I mean, it- it's already hitting advertising from- Yes... everything I've heard. But it's also gonna hit commerce, right? I mean, people are gonna be... They're already buying less. I mean, we see it.

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Like, you know, the whole point of raising interest rates is to tamp down demand. You know, maybe it's m- more on, like, housing and bigger ticket items, but it hits across the board, right?

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We haven't seen that yet, and I'll hope the yet never comes. But- Uh... we're watching. We obviously monitor our numbers. [laughs] Okay. Daily, weekly, monthly, but so far we are on track with our affiliate revenue.

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But look, you have to watch. Someone once said to me a long time ago, an investor, you know, "We're in the truth business." And I thought, "Well, I would never lie," you know? [laughs] Like, what does that mean?

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But the truth is to say- Yeah... this is the truth, right? The truth is people may buy less or they are buying less, or the truth is that ad rates will go down.

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It- it's not like, don't stick your head in the sand, but it's like, here's the truth. Okay, what are we gonna do about it? And I think that's made our team really strong, that no one's looking for the sugarcoat.

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It's here's the truth, here's the reality, and what next? I think that's allowed us to really pivot tremendously over these last eight years.

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[upbeat music] So just to r- wrap it up, like, what would be your three big takeaways for anyone sort of going into a turnaround situation?

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'Cause, I mean, there's ups and downs to, you know, we can make it all neat and stuff like this, [laughs] but it's a difficult process.

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Well, I'd say you have to be a certain [laughs] kind of person to like turnarounds, and you have to surround yourself with those kind of people.

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I mean, when I hired anybody, I needed to make sure that they thought fixing was fun. You have to get some joy out of it. It's very hard work. I happen to love it.

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I always say it's 'cause I'm a middle child and I'm a damn good fixer. But, you know, you have to have that attitude. You can't just wanna get through it, because there are hard days, so.

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You know, first is, like, have the right people with the right attitude to do a turnaround. The other is, second, I would say, is be very decisive. I mean, you have to make tough decisions. You have to make them quickly.

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You have to execute. And the third would probably be an uber communicator.

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I mean, when I first got back, you know, people didn't believe that we could do it, and it's really about constant communication and proof points that all of a sudden people are like, "Oh, you know, we can do it."

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And so even now, like, if we fall on tough times, you know, I know that this company, this group of people, will say, "We can do it. We'll figure it out."

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And you have to have that in your DNA, and I, I think we firmly do, and it shows in the results. Awesome. Okay. Bonnie, thank you so much. Really appreciate you taking the time. Thank you for having me, Brian.

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This was really fun. Thank you for listening this week. We will be back next week with a new episode. The Rebooting show is produced by Podhelpus. Podcasts are a great way to expand your client base.

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Podhelpus lets you focus on having engaging conversations, giving your brand the full stack of services needed for a professional look and sound. Start your podcast today at podhelp.us.

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