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[upbeat music] Okay, so you're just gonna sort of play it by ear as far as, it's not like you're like, "Okay, the longterm 10-year plan is I wanna have, like, Platformer be like an independent publishing brand, like TechCrunch, but cultural and, and stuff like this."

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It's not that. You know, I mean, the thing is, like, brands are so ephemeral anyway. It's like, is any publication cool for longer than 10 years? Yeah. I, I don't know.

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There, there are so many zombie brands floating around, you know?

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It's like the last thing I would want is, like, for Platformer to become Spin Magazine, where it's just, like, bought by, like, a hedge fund [laughs] or, like, a, you know, a, the royal family of Monaco or something, and it just runs- Yeah...

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the toe fungus ads. Like, uh, that is not my dream for Platformer. I'm, like, a music fan.

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It's like my favorite bands are the ones that come along and they put out three great albums and you never hear from them again, and they're legends. Like, that's what I would much prefer that Platformer is.

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Okay, so no Vegas residency for you? Oh, I would do a Vegas residency.

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[laughs] [upbeat music] Welcome to- [laughs]... the Rebooting show.

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I'm Brian Morrissey. Very excited for this week's guest. I'm excited for every week's guest, but I'm particularly excited for this week's guest.

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Casey Newton, sole proprietor of Platformer, and I think you're one of the more successful sort of case studies of the go- going solo movement, and we'll talk about that, and we wanna focus really on what it's been like...

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At least I wanna focus on what it's been like building a business, 'cause both of us come from the journalism side, and they don't train us on that stuff at all. No. Famously, they keep us away from it.

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Which I, which by the way, I, and let's just start there. Like- Yeah... I think, like, it was almost...

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I, this is my sort of conspiracy theory, is that the church and state divide was sort of sold to, like, keep, keep the journalist people in their place. They're like, "Don't you worry about it. It'd be terrible.

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There's many conflicts here. You don't wanna know." And then, "Oh, by the way, the people on the sales side are waking, making way more than you." It's really true.

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And, I mean, look, there are very good reasons to keep the journalism separate from the business in at least some ways, and now that I am running my own shop, I do sometimes come across those tripwires and think like, "Well, probably shouldn't, uh, walk over there," right?

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But very much the case that if we had any idea how much the salespeople had [laughs] been making when we were, like, 22- Yeah... I think we would've been having very different conversations in the newsroom. Yeah, yeah.

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I mean, nobody goes into journalism to, like, get rich, right? I mean, if they do- True... they're not very strategic. But- That's true. But what if people thought they could get rich?

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Maybe they would do more journalism, and maybe we'd have better journalism. Yes. That's a good point. Yeah.

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I think it was, like, forced on us, this idea that we take some sort of vow of poverty and stuff like this, and meanwhile everyone else in the organization was like, "Yeah, no, not for me. I'm okay with that." Right.

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[laughs] Anyway, so let's get into it with, you left The Verge t- two years ago. That's right. Yeah? And so- Yeah...

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talk me through the decision, 'cause at the time, this was when, like, Substack was really starting to get a lot more attention and there was, there were more stories about it and the creator economy stuff.

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But what gave you the confidence that this is a path I wanna take? Yeah, so I'm a very risk-averse person in general, and I had basically done every single thing I could to de-risk the decision before I made it, right?

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So I had written a daily newsletter for three years.

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When I left The Verge, I had built up an audience, and it was big enough that even if, like, a half a percent of those people had agreed to my price, like, I would eat, my bills would be paid.

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And so as I was thinking about whether I wanted to do this, just from a sheer, like, can I keep the lights on at my house perspective, I was like, "I think the numbers are big enough here."

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I- in terms of why I wanted to do it as a journalistic proposition, though, I grew up in the newspaper industry. I like to say that I was one of the first people to have my job disrupted by the internet twice, right?

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Like, first the internet came along and ate print, and then social came along and ate the web, and all of a sudden it wasn't clear, like, what that next 10 years was gonna look like.

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And I had survived, you know, so many rounds of layoffs at those newspapers that I worked for.

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I actually had an, an amazing job at Vox Media where I felt very comfortable, but, you know, who knows what was gonna happen in three years, five years, 10 years, right?

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And I thought, man, the one thing I've learned by, from covering these social networks is you've gotta stop yourself from, from having a middleman in between you and the audience, right?

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Like, I've gotta go get that direct connection, and there is no more direct connection than having your own business and selling a product for money. And so it was the middle of the pandemic.

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I was waking up every day in this house just typing in a box, and I thought, "I can type in a box for Vox Media, or I could type in a box for myself. You know, why not just type in the box for myself?"

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I was living like a retiree. I was buying groceries twice a week. That was, like, the majority of my expenses. [laughs] I was like, "You know, I'm never gonna have a cheaper existence than I do right now. Let's do it."

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So I did it. Yeah. I think there's, like, a few things stand out. One is journalists by their nature are risk-averse, right? Mm-hmm.

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I used to joke, you go to some event, like, the worst is, like, when they're like, "Oh, we're gonna seat you at the journalist table." It's like, oh no, it's just gonna be constant complaints and about- [laughs]...

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oh, wow, this is wrong, this is bad, because the profession, that's how... We're supposed to be skeptical. We're supposed to- Yeah. People are lying to us all the time.

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[laughs] And so I think that that mindset shift is really difficult, and that's why I don't think this is for everyone. But I think the two other things that stood out is, one is autonomy, right?

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And the other is, look, even if y- you had a very, you know, I don't wanna say cushy job, but a very good job, right? Like- It was a cushy job. It absolutely was a cushy- [laughs] It was the cushiest job I've ever had.

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It was... I loved it so much. No, but even people who have, and I would always tell this to the young people who, like, and I'm like, "Look, it gets really narrow.

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Once you got, like, real expenses in life, it gets really narrow, and you gotta specialize. You gotta de-commoditize yourself as much as possible."

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[lips smack] But I feel like for every single person who has been in this profession, they've, they've been laid off at some point. They've had their job taken away from them.

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And even if they get to the other side, the precariousness, precarity? I have no idea what the word is. The precarity, if you will. [laughs] It's like, let's just make it up. Yeah.

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The precarity of that existence sort of sticks with them, right?Very much so. And again, I did feel like I was at a point in my career where, like, if layoffs came, I would be okay for a while.

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I didn't think I was gonna be the first person to be laid off. Although again, a telecom buys you, decides they don't want a website anymore, and then you're not nearly as safe as...

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So you see how I immediately, you know- Yeah... go back to the precarity that I feel. And I think because I was working for Gannett in the early 2000s, that was just an absolutely ruthless company that was just- Yeah...

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gonna squeeze every penny out of those newsrooms, I just sort of assumed that that was what it was always gonna be like.

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It just made such a strong impression on me, and I did get to a point where I, I wanna see if we can figure out a new path. Because that's the thing, right?

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Is like, as journalists, we are skeptical, we do complain, but we can also just try to go build different other things, right?

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And so I just felt like I was at this moment in history where it's like, maybe I could just try to find a different path for folks like us. Yes.

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So did you wanna make a different type of product than you were able to make at The Verge? Mostly no, interestingly, right? I was writing a daily newsletter, and I wanted to keep writing the daily newsletter, right?

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I kind of wanted to change the audience a bit. I thought, maybe I can find a different or even bigger audience if I go independent, right?

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Like, I'd sort of been drafting off the power of this brand for six and a half years.

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What's gonna happen if I go stand on my own and try to just sort of shine the spotlight a little bit more clearly on, on what I was doing?

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But the thing I love about newslet- newsletters in particular, is that they can evolve so quickly.

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You know, if you go back for the five years that I've been writing a daily newsletter now, there are whole sections that used to be there that just aren't there anymore. Yeah. And it's totally fine.

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Whereas, like, you work for a website, you wanna redesign it, give yourself two years. That's how long it's gonna take, right? My newsletter can just evolve.

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So it, it has changed actually, you know, since I left The Verge. Yeah. So one of the things, and I remember when you left The, The Verge, is like, you took your email list with you. Mm-hmm. How did- Which I... Yeah.

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Like, do you, did you have something on Jim Bankoff? Or, like, how did you swing that deal? Like, 'cause I need- Well- Like, I sell ads now, and I need to understand, like- [laughs]...

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how you establish that kind of leverage. I mean, this is a great moment for me to say, Jim Bankoff is the best CEO in media, and I truly believe that.

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When I started the proc- the, the planning for starting Platformer, I assumed I would not take the email list.

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And I was getting ready to walk, and just think, you know, at that point I just had 100,000 Twitter followers, and I was like, you know, these people have been reading me, you know, for, what, you know, three years at this point.

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Like, enough of them will come along, that even if I don't have the mailing list, I can still make it work.

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But, you know, as I was talking with my, my bosses there, who had also become very close friends, we started talking about, well, is there a deal that we could make that would be beneficial to both of us, right?

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That email list did not actually have a lot of value to them. There was not somebody waiting to step into it and write a daily column about social networks and democracy.

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And so instead of just sort of, you know, tossing it aside and doing nothing with it, we said, "Can we come together? Can I be a contributing editor? Can I continue to publish my column on The Verge?"

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And, um, and we worked it out, and it was a really unexpected thing.

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But I, I've gotten a, an enormous amount of value, I would say, over the past years of, you know, not just the, the, the business relationship, but, but frankly, just having some kind of, like, low-key coworkers, right?

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Like, there's one Slack channel I'm in at The Verge, where, like, when I need a hit of coworker energy, I can just kind of go have it.

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And, and so I do think you have to think about the other things that you need as a solo creator when you do that. Yeah. And I think, like, uh, there's a lot more focus on, like, burnout and stuff. I want- Mm-hmm...

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to talk to you about that a little bit. Yeah. But, um, I think a little bit is overdone. I know you tried to avoid the word burnout, like, 'cause it's so- I mean, I'm happy to talk. Burnout is a very real thing.

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[laughs] I'm just not burned out. [laughs] I don't know. The definition keeps shifting. It reminds me of, like, when, like, I don't know, several years ago, like, when everyone decided they were lactose intolerant.

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[laughs] I'm like, "Some of you just don't like milk." [laughs] I am legitimately lactose intolerant, though. [laughs] Okay, maybe you are. Yeah.

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[laughs] Like, some people, they just don't like milk or yogurt sits kind of funny with them. I go back to, like, you know, the blog days, right?

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And there was people like, Am Malik, and, and Rafat, and other people who broke off on their own, and they were doing the blogging thing. And, you know, I remember at the time, like, it looked very intimidating.

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I was like, "My God, you gotta build some, like, website, and then y- maybe Federated Media i- uh, sells ads, maybe they don't sell ads." Whereas with Substack, it was a business in a box. And because- Yeah...

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of the subscription model, it really abstracted all of the stuff that made, for risk-averse type people like us, that made it, like, seem almost, at least for me, I'll just speak for myself, almost, like, impossible.

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Like, I, I don't know how to do any of that stuff. Yeah. It's ridiculously plug and play.

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I mean, it's amazing to think that just by adding a subscription component to a blogging platform, you can enable hundreds, maybe thousands of people to start their own successful businesses.

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When you think about how many blogging platforms there had been before that, it had never occurred to them, [laughs] right?

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And so I think Substack gets dragged a lot, sometimes appropriately, but, like, that's one thing that they just absolutely nailed from the start. Yeah. And how attractive was it for you?

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'Cause I mean, I believe m- almost all your career you've written for, like, ad-supported media. Yep. Ad-driven. It depends on how, how you v- view ads, right?

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Like- Well, I mean, I worked for a newspaper, so there, there was a subscription there, but I wasn't seeing m- much of that revenue. Right. But at the same time, the newspaper, their business was majority ads.

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Yeah, yeah. Like, look, everyone wants their work to be a- as widely available as possible. How did you view subscriptions as the model then, and the trade-offs?

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[gentle music] So I am deeply inspired by Ben Thompson. He is somebody who really kind of invented this.

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I mean, the Substack guys will tell you that, you know, him and Bill Bishop at Sinism were basically the two people that made them think, like, why don't we just scale this, right?

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And Ben, Ben in particular did one thing that I love, which is he said, "I'm going to write one thing a week that is free. So I will just give away, usually my best thinking of the week, I'm gonna give away for free.

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And if you really like it and you want more of this kind of thing, you can pay me."And to me, that threaded a really difficult needle, you know, 'cause some people talk about the subscription versus ad-supported thing as like, well, you know, if we wanna have a healthy democracy, we need a lot of great journalism, and if all that great journalism goes behind a paywell, then the democracy is screwed.

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I think, I think there's something to that, right? You don't want, uh, to limit too much the, the number of people who are getting the best kind of journalism.

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But, you know, I'm one person, and look, I would love to tell you that I was gonna have four scoops a week and that, you know, each one of them was gonna shake the industry to its foundations.

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But, you know, practically speaking, I'm lucky if I can get a scoop a week, right?

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And, and much more often I've got, like, four thoughts for the week, and one is just slightly better than the other three, and that's the thing I give away for free, right?

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But, like, I, I like being in that mode because it lets me feel like I'm doing the public service component of it, while also going out to a reader base that, in my experience, has been much more generous to me than even the most generous media company was, right?

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So for me, I, I really do feel like I get to have my cake and eat it too. Yeah.

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And I think what's interesting is, like, when you go into the solo creator, I'm not gonna use personal brand, but the dynamics I think are, are different as far as why people subscribe, right? Like, and

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I think too many times people think that it's purely transactional, right? And I think that is the case when it is a sort of faceless institutional brand.

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Like, people are not subscribing to Gannett, like, because, like, they feel some affinity to Gannett. Right. [laughs] No. If you feel affinity f- towards Gannett, go to therapy. Maybe some members of the Gannett family.

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But, like, outside of the, you know, the Gannetts, like, the, not so much.

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Whereas I think what a lot of people are finding, and I, I'd be interested if you're finding this, is, like, you don't have to, like, view everything as just a purely transactional commercial exchange.

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You pay me money, you get content. Yes. Now, I have tried to present Platformer that way because I think for it to be the best business it can be, it should be doing a job for you. If you...

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It's probably, if you're subscribing to it, you're probably in the tech industry or in media or in comms. You're in the C-suite.

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There is something about it that's useful to you, that helps you sort of understand the conversation in the industry. That's very much how I present it.

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But practically speaking, if you asked a good number of my subscribers, like, "Why do you subscribe?"

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Some of them, I don't know how many, I haven't surveyed them, but some of them have told me it's like, "I wanna support you to go do the thing that you do."

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And there's this, uh, wonderful online creator personality, Man About Town, Andy Baio. He runs waxy.org, which is sort of one of the, uh, oldest link blogs. Ran the XOXO Festival.

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He's sort of always been a champion of independent creators, and I've followed Andy's work forever, and I'm just a huge fan of his.

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And when he subscribed to Platformer, I was saying something in my Discord server about, I don't know, you know, trying to do a good job and trying to, like, break news or whatever, and he just sent me a message and said like, "Just so you know, like, I'm here to support you.

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Don't worry about what I've given you. Just go try to find interesting things and, like- Yeah... trust that that's a fair transaction."

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And it really meant a lot to me, and I don't have the self-confidence to believe that, like, most of my subscribers are like Andy, but it's nice knowing that they're there.

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I think if you survey, a lot of them will be- Yeah... to be honest with you. Yeah. Because, like, I mean, you see it.

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Like, you have, like, a fairly big Twitter following, I feel like, and I think what is interesting, I think there's, like, two sides, but one, like, the Twitter-Substack relationship is, like, both, like, very powerful and very, like, problematic to some degree.

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Mm. But I mean, not with your stuff. I mean with the stuff like with getting into Twitter fights in order to drive stuff. Oh, yeah, the culture warriors. Yeah. Yeah. No, I don't... But whatever. Whatever works.

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Uh, but I think what is different, particularly when it's a personal thing, is, like, people feel like they know you. Yeah. I know it probably sounds creepy to some degree too. [laughs] No, it doesn't at all.

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I feel lucky that I have a following that is, like, big enough for me. I think that if it gets much bigger than this, it's probably gonna not be as much fun. But, you know, I was just, like, walking around San Francisco.

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Somebody's like, "Hey," like, "are, are you Casey?" I said, "Yes." He said, "I subscribe to your newsletter." Like, that's fantastic. That's super San Francisco, Casey. Very San Francisco.

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[laughs] But I will say, it's happened in New York and it's happened in Santa Barbara within the last year, okay? [laughs] So the Platformer subscribers are out there. We love it.

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But, like, that is cool for me because I want people to have a personal connection. When I send out Platformer, if you respond and say, like, "I, I have another thought," I will write you back and say, "You are so smart.

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Thank you for sharing that with me," right? And that is- Yeah. You don't get that. You know, for example, I was at The Verge. I would write a story. We would have a comment section.

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The comments never started out with, "Great piece, Casey." No. [laughs] But that's how, like, most of the emails I get start, right? I know. So there is something different in kind about this medium.

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Well, that is, like, you actually hear... I don't know if you've found this, but you hear from people in, like, a constructive way, not like a "you're an asshole" way- Yes... uh, [laughs] much more- Completely...

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frequently you, when you do newsletters. And podcasts to me are very similar because the human voice is personal and all of that. Like, you- Yes...

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you know, people feel a connection to you that I feel like just gets you out of a more transactional relationship. I mean, this is why I wanna start a podcast.

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Like, I think anybody in the newsletter business should probably be in the podcast business for that exact reason. Yeah, because I think that they have similar to...

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I've written about this, but they have similar dynamics, like, in that they're very human and that the connection that you have is far different than the kind of connection you have with, like, a Gannett website.

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I could be wrong. You're not wrong. I think [laughs] events have similar dynamics. So when you were thinking about the business, you were like, "Okay, it's gonna be purely subs.

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I'm not, I'm not gonna be out there slinging ads." Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I just, I don't love ads in general.

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Actually, you know, reading your newsletter is something that sort of helps me, like, purge my, you know, general dislike for ads. Because the ads are so amazing, like, you know, like The House of Kaizen.

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We love the ads. The rebooting ads. You've never seen ads like this. But, like, basically anywhere on the internet I can pay to get rid of ads, like, I do. Like, I just always have.

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But, you know, this year I was talking to [laughs] these folks who run a jobs board, and I do write in, like, this particular niche with people who just sort of do, like, trust and safety and, like, tech policy and platforms, and I thought, you know, that's just niche-y enough that it's worth seeing whether people wanna buy job ads.

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And of course, you know, the people at this platform I'm working with are putting dollar signs in my eyes. You know, this is the easiest money you've ever made. And, um- Turn on the revenue spigot- Oh, yeah... Casey.

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Here we go, baby. [laughs] And so we tried it, and, like, made a little bit of money, but, like, people just didn't like it that much. What I will say is that it, it... the experiment was worth doing.

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I don't feel bad that I put ads in the newsletter because I thought it was like, if it worked, it was gonna be a service for the people that it was really useful for, but it didn't really work, but I definitely do have an ad thing I wanna ask you about.

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Let's do it right now. Okay. [gentle music] So here's the thing. So something Substack got really good at this year was helping me add free subscribers.

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Oh, the recommendations thing? Yeah. Oh my God, yeah. So I don't know, is it working for you? Oh, yeah. It's crazy.

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So since August 1st, I've added, I, I think 9,000 subscribers is what I wrote, and it's almost all recommendations, right? So that's amazing.

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Now, less amazing, they don't monetize well at all, which is not surprising, right? These are people who, like, clicked a box. They have no idea who I am. They have no relationship- Wow... with me. You know?

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It's a pre-checked box. It... And it's a pre-checked box, okay? So yes, we're getting all of this growth. This growth is not making me any money, but it's like when I started my Substack, I had 24,000 subscribers.

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Now I've got about 75,000 subscribers, so [laughs] the vast majority of those, like, I'm not monetizing at all. But by the way, the, the open rate is, like, still pretty good.

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Like, despite the fact that it's, like, much bigger, the open rate has held relatively steady for that weekly free email I set up.

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So I'm like, well, if there was ever an ad you were gonna do, you would just put an ad and show it to these tens of thousands of people who are reading this thing every week but who are not subscribing.

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And, like, it sort of leads to the next thing, which is, like, Substack should just build an ad network, right? To me, this is the only way that they ever conceivably live up to their justification.

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But you actually know things about ads, so that's why I wanted to, like, throw this at you. Well, I know this about ads.

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The first step to, like, building an ad business is, is to say that you'll never build an ad business. [laughs] That's generally how it goes. And what happens is you call it something different, and that's how it goes.

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Like, you know, The Athletic was literally marketing their entire product [laughs] on the fact that it was ad free, only to add ads. And they were like, "No, no, not, not those ads. These ads are fine.

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We were talking about the other ads." Look, I disagree with Substack. I think Substack is great on a m- many levels, and what they've done in some ways is underappreciated. Like, the fact that the- Yeah...

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emails, like, are delivered and- Yeah... look the way they should deliver is- Yeah... like, pretty amazing- Yeah... as anyone who has sent email knows.

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[laughs] And the fact that they've allowed so many people, like you said, as long as you have something to say, you just hook up a Stripe account, and like- Yeah... that's it. You're off- Yeah... and running.

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But ultimately, like you said, like, you need to have different ways to make money, and the fact is the idea of viewing all of those top of the funnel people as just, like, only having value if they take out a credit card to me is wrong, particularly if you're in a, you say niche, I say niche because I try to be European, particularly if you're in, in a high-value niche where the people are hard to reach.

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It, it literally doesn't make sense. I talk with Substack with them. I'm like, "I don't understand why you think you know how I should do this business m- more than I do.

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Like, I just don't understand that, to be honest with you." Right. And I think eventually they'll get there.

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I mean, I have a small investment in Beehiiv, and I think that's the opportunity that, that Tyler and his, his group saw is because, you know, media ultimately is always monetized in, in several ways, and to close yourself off from all different ways of monetization doesn't make sense.

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Just because you are running ads does not mean you are running the toe fungus. Right. You can run the toe fungus. The one, the one-year trick. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, those would both be great. I would like them. Yeah.

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But, you know, particularly in high-value audiences, like, look at, like, the businesses that were built, like, by Axios, by Politico. Look at even, like, subscription-based things like Punchbowl.

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They're probably eight-to-one ads versus subscription revenue. Hm. Yeah. It's something that I wanna think more about. Like, I think, you know what? By the end of this podcast- Yeah...

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we're gonna, like, have an ad network up and running for Platformer. Well, what I honestly wish is if Substack said- I'll sell them. [laughs] If Substack said we...

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Like, you can enable ads for your free subs and turn them off for your paid subs, I would do that 'cause I would also love to offer the ad-free opt... Like, because it...

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Then it just becomes something else that I put in the bundle that gets you to convert to paid, right?

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So if Substack builds that, I think it's, like, actually a pretty easy switch for me to flip, and if they don't, then it's like, okay, am I gonna, like, m- you know, modestly annoy some of my subscribers- [laughs]...

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by showing them an ad once a week? Well, here's something that I will say as, like, you know, the ad guy in this conversation- Mm-hmm... I guess. I didn't ever w- I don't wanna be in that position, but I am.

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Um, here we are, is I think it's like, I think there are not that many people who actually pay in order to get, uh, away from advertising.

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Like, I know, like, it, it does in, in, in, like, Netflix and that kind of, like, interruptive advertising.

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I don't think that's necessarily the case in, in, particularly in the types of newsletter ads that people- T- They're not, like... They're not- Well, the thing is, I... The, here's the thing.

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I believe you that most people don't, but the th- the other thing is I am one of those people. [laughs] So it's like, it's, like, very hard for me. That's the problem. Yeah.

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[laughs] Well, 'cause we pattern it based on, like, our own preferences. Yeah, exactly. But it's a very, like... I'll say it. It's, like, an elite phenomenon of people who, um, who pay to avoid advertising.

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Most people are, like, fine with it. And I mean, you're not, like, B2B exactly. You're, like, an influencer, a influence play. Like, how do you describe your...? I mean, I try to keep it pretty broad, right?

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I write about... I describe it a, a few different ways.

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The most common way is I say is, you know, I write about social networks and democracy, but, like, I called it Platformer because, because on some level it's just a newsletter about platforms and, like, specifically the policies and, that, that platforms have to adopt and the challenges that they have as they grow and as they sort of encounter different issues.

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And this winds up affecting mostly the social networks, like the social networks feel at first, but man, you go one ring out, and, you know, Amazon, Apple, Microsoft, and all these tiny startups, they all run into the same thing.

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So I do think of, like, my paying customer is somebody who is struggling with that. There are definitely some people that are like, "I like to know what's going on in Silicon Valley.

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I like these link roundups that are in here, and I like sort of getting, you know, a daily thought about, you know, what's happening in the tech world."

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Um, you know, I, I guess, you know what's, you know what's so funny, Brian, is, like, the more I'm talking, I'm like, I really should s- like, um- [laughs]...

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uh, survey my subscribers so I know what the heck I'm talking about. Yeah. Like, [laughs] you know, like, I really am just, like, doing a vibes-based approach [laughs] to this business right now. Yeah.

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No, we're gonna get both that up and running by the time this is over. Yeah. [laughs] We're gonna get the ad network up and running, but step one is to get this survey out so we can sell the ads.

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I think that's, like, a good point because, like, if people are using your-I mean, do you know, like, if people are subscribing and paying you, like, with corporate credit cards versus- Oh, yeah... with their personal?

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Yeah. Well, 'cause I mean, 'cause like I... So I... Anytime somebody, like, pays to become a Platformer subscriber, I get an email.

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'Cause I always wanna see the name, you know, like if I know them, if they're a famous person, like whatever. And yeah, I see a lot of- I wanna see the money. I would wanna see the money.

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I mean, that would be more exciting. [laughs] Oh, I see the money, too. Yeah. Well, well, so it'll tell you right there. It's like, is it, you know, is it a 10 bucks a month? [laughs] Is it 100 bucks a year, right? Yeah.

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Is it a mystery-tier subscriber? Very exciting when that happens. [laughs] Um, so, uh, I have a mystery tier that's $1,000 a year that people actually do pay for. It's, like, one of the greatest- Yeah...

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things that's ever happened to me. But everyone should do that, by the way. Yeah.

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'Cause there's a lot of people out there, you do not know the price elasticity of your product unless you, like, put, like, a pretty high number out there. Truly, yeah. So I get, I get to see that.

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But, you know, I see a lot of the google.coms, the amazon.coms. I mean, a really interesting thing is I see people become paid subscribers at businesses.

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I'm a video game nerd, and there's this really sort of, like, weird arty studio called Quantic Dream, and, like, five or six people from, like, quanticdream.com signed up. I'm like, "Is...

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Are they making a video game about tech platform? Like, what is even happening?" But so it's really fun. So you had a great post on your, like, sort of two-year, but there was something missing. Oh, tell me.

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You didn't say how many, you didn't say how many, like, paying subscribers you had or how much revenue you're generating. [laughs] And my thing is just, like, it just feels tacky to me, you know? It's not tacky at all.

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It's like, I think it's totally tacky. Like, I think if most people just sit down and they're like, "Let me tell you exactly how much money I brought in this year," it's like most people don't do that, you know?

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So what I try to tell people is, like, it's the best job I've ever had. It's sustainable. It's growing. I can tell you what- Are you making more, are you making more than you made at, at- Yes... uh, Vox?

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It's by a substantial margin. Oh, okay. You know? So you were either being underpaid by Vox, or you're doing really well. There's really, there's very little good argument that I was being underpaid by Vox.

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[laughs] There was, there was way better- Okay, so you're doing extremely well. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I'm doing... Uh, yes, I feel like I'm doing extremely well, for sure. Okay.

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So then, then I think the big question about this entire Substack and all the other newsletter thing is, like, is this just, like, another elite phenomenon? Is there a middle class to Substack, right?

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I mean- As a side hustle, sure, but, like, as a very sustainable, well-paid proposition, how many people are going to be... I mean, you must rank among the highest, I should think. Probably.

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Yeah, I think I'm like the number two tech publication. So you've gotten to the other side in some ways- Yeah... in that you've validated this as absolutely as, like, a one-person media company, this totally works. Yeah.

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Yeah, and when I went independent, my hope was that two years on, so many more people were gonna do this, and I spent that first year that I was independent talking to so many boldface name reporters at The New York Times, The Atlantic, like, you name it, because they were all thinking about doing the exact same thing.

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And I was trying to encourage them to do it because I was having so much fun with it, and it was succeeding.

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But so very few people pulled that trigger, and I think individually they all had good reasons, but I have been shocked at how few people, relatively speaking, have followed, right?

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Most people have really wanted the comfort, the stability of that standard media job. You know, I have one friend who said, like, "I love what you do, but I'm just streaky as a writer.

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Like, I have a good month, and then I have a bad month." And if you're writing on Substack, you may not feel like you can afford to have a bad month. Yeah. It's an interesting sort of pressure.

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I think, you know, journalists put a lot of pressure on themselves, and the best ones put a lot of pressure on themselves.

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Like [laughs] And if I could just interrupt, something you said earlier is so true, which is that [laughs] the nature of our profession makes us less likely to start businesses.

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If you're a business reporter, almost the only question you're ever asking about a business is what could go wrong or what went wrong. [laughs] Exactly. That, like, there's no worse mindset.

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It's antithetical to entrepreneurialism. Exactly. Like- It's completely resistant to it, right? Yeah.

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But the other thing that you mentioned is also real, which is, like, we're kept away from the business, like, as babies.

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How many years, I was like, "Oh, I'm terrible at math," and I am still terrible at math, and now I have to have an accountant and a bookkeeper to be, like, [laughs] good at it for me. Yeah. You know?

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But we do have all of these flaws that, that make it hard for us to start these businesses, and yet, you know, if somebody came to you and they're like, "Well, if you, like, just spend a little time, you know, uh, thinking about this, you could make, like, two, three times what you're making now," like, would that trade-off feel worth it?

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And I, I just have to believe it would feel worth it to people. 'Cause keep in mind, like, the journalism industry is still in a crisis, and you know this better than anyone, Brian. But it's like- Yeah...

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outside a couple of the, like, major leading lights, there's a lot of people clinging on to mediocre jobs, hoping that they're gonna get, like, a 2% cost of living increase when inflation's out of control.

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You know, if you're 25 and you're making $60,000 a year, and you live in a major US hub, and you ever wanna buy a home someday, you can't do that with your media job, right?

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So i- if you want to stay in this business, I mean, that's the thing. Like, for me, it's like this is a commitment to the business, like this is a thing that- Yeah... I want to do. You know?

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So it's like, well, if I wanna do this, but I also wanna do, like, what have typically been considered basic things like buying a home, then I can't really do that from the confines of a normal media job, and I'm just, I'm surprised at how little discussion of that I see.

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[gentle music] The de-risking is really important, and I think Substack was trying to de-risk with a lot of these grants and stuff like this, but you, you can't scale that kind of thing.

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That's why I'm interested in the kind of Defector model and stuff like this- Mm-hmm... where you get a little bit of, like, the best of both worlds, right?

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You have that autonomy that, you know, you're not working for the man, and you have upside, you know, which- Yeah... I think sometimes is overrated.

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But I mean, people, again, they don't go into journalism, it's not, like, a rational decision if you're looking to maximize [laughs] your, like, lifetime income.

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But, you know, you do wanna, you know, get greedy enough to, like, I don't know, like, own, like, a 1,000 square foot apartment or something like that- [laughs] Exactly... by the time you're 65. Go figure.

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But that's why I think it's really interesting w- whereAnd to me, the next, like, chapter is going to be where do these kind of successful solo businesses go? Do you wanna keep this...

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Because doing, you're doing a podcast that's coming out- Yeah... soon with, with the Times, right? Yeah. You still do stuff with The Verge. You've been publishing four times a week.

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You're gonna be doing it three times a week, which is probably the best move because it's a lot. Yeah. I don't know how you did that, honestly.

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[laughs] But are you gonna build, like, are you building a media company, like a, a real media company? You're gonna start to bring on people, or do you wanna keep it- Yeah... like a Ben Thompson model?

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Well, I don't know if I would call it a real media company. When I launched it, I said I wanted to start a tiny media company, and that's kind of still how it feels to me.

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So I have hired a person, but it's gonna be kind of a hybrid editorial operational role, and the idea is this person will do journalism, so like Platformer subscribers are going to get more journalism.

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Some of it will be free, some of it will be behind the paywall. Hopefully, we're gonna give you more reasons to subscribe, to support the work that we're doing.

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But then this person is also gonna be doing stuff on the operational side, right? Like, what can we do to grow subscriptions? And maybe we decide we do wanna look at ads. That might be something that this person took on.

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So the idea is to divvy up those responsibilities, and while this person is doing that, I'm gonna have more time to report, to write, to think, to read, to do some of the stuff that I feel like I've sacrificed by doing the four columns a week and running the business.

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Okay. How do you think of, like, the enterprise value? 'Cause like this totally works as like, you know, income and- Yeah... and it's great and everything like this.

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Then you start to, like think like, well, what about... What- Yeah... what am I building here? Like, is this like, uh, you know, services businesses have low...

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And if it's tied to an individual, well, then, you know, there's not like, there's not a lot of enterprise value in that because it only has value with the individual. Sure.

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Well, so at the risk of saying things that may lead you to ask more questions that I don't wanna answer- [laughs]... like, people have tried to acquire Platformer.

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People have, like, thrown numbers at me, and it's been cool. I didn't feel like at the end of doing that deal, it would change my life to the point that I wanted to go take another media job.

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Also, my business is pretty new. It's like two years old. Yeah. It's still growing fast enough that it fel- feels like a weird time to sell it, right? Like, it doesn't feel mature yet.

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[laughs] And there are just kinda things that I want to try. But, you know, on one hand, I kinda don't care what the enterprise value is because if I just do this, like for...

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I've sort of told myself in my mind this is a 10-year project, so like I'm two years into a 10-year project.

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If I do it for eight more years, you know, then I'll be 50 years old, and I can decide if I wanna keep writing it or if I wanna take a step back or, like, something. Um, I'm so happy to just do...

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That was the whole point, was to just, like, figure out a thing I could do in my 40s and not worry about getting laid off, right?

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[laughs] But if something comes along in the meantime where it's like, "Oh, wow, like, you actually really have built an asset here, and, like, you're working with a couple of really talented people, and we wanna, like, buy your mailing list, your subscriber relationships, and, like, bring you in to be a writer/something," I can see a world when it happens.

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I'm not seeking it out, but it's like, it seems possible. Okay. So that's like, so you're just like sort of...

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And I think it's really interesting also with the types of businesses that journalists will be building versus, like, the types of business that, like, MBA, like the spreadsheet people built. [laughs] Yeah.

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[laughs] I don't know how else to put it. Anytime I'm in a spreadsheet, I'm like, oh my God, this is not... I got mocked at this breakfast the other day because I put the months in some forecast on, like, the wrong axis.

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And, like, the laughter was, like, ama- and I'm like, I don't... Is this that funny? But, like, it's a different world. Well, I mean, first of all, this sounds like a terrible breakfast.

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[laughs] It was, but this, well, this is what happens when you go into, like, the sort of business side kinda stuff.

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[laughs] Okay, so you're just gonna sort of play it by ear as far as it's not like you're like, okay, the long-term, 10-year plan is I wanna have, like, Platformer be, like, an independent publishing brand, like TechCrunch, but cultural and, and stuff like this.

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It's not that. You know, I mean, the thing is, like, brands are so ephemeral anyway. It's like, is any publication cool for longer than 10 years? Yeah. I, I don't know.

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There's so many zombie brands floating around, you know?

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It's like the last thing I would want is, like, for Platformer to become Spin Magazine, where it's just, like, bought by, like, a hedge fund [laughs] or, like, a, you know, a, the royal family of Monaco or something, and it just runs- Yeah...

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the toe fungus ads. Like, that, that is not my dream for Platformer. I'm like a music fan.

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It's like my favorite bands are the ones that come along, and they put out three great albums, and you never hear from them again, and they're legends. Like, that's what I would much prefer that Platformer is.

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Okay, so no Vegas residency for you? Oh, I would do a Vegas residency. [laughs] [gentle music] Okay, so final thing is I wanna talk about this, like, burnout sort of thing, and like- Yeah...

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I don't even know if it... Like, as you said, like, burnout is, is a real thing. Yeah.

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Like, I'm glad I sort of was, like, not working at, like, a company for al- almost all of the pandemic, like a good part of the pandemic. Yeah. Just because it's like, it's become so top of mind.

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But also, I think when you're doing anything solo, you start to realize, first of all, you start to have, like, an amazing appreciation for all those different departments and, like, what they did- Yeah...

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that you didn't do. And you might have had, like, a vague sort of understanding and appreciation, but you really understand it then.

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And I think that's important, by the way, with the Substack model 'cause they've simplified it to such a degree.

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But at the same time, and particularly 'cause you were doing, like, a daily newsletter at The Verge, and you did four times a week, right? Mm-hmm.Holy shit. So I do write a lot.

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To use a technical term in the journalism profession, holy shit. I'm happy to talk about that. People often comment about how often I'm writing.

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I wanna say I depend heavily on the journalism that other people are doing, right?

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If you look at, like, my Medium column, I'm taking a look at two or three stories that other people wrote, that other people did the reporting on, and I'm trying to connect some dots.

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I'm trying to tie it back to something that happened before. I'm trying to spin it a little bit into how it might happen in the future.

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I'm trying to give you, like, one thought about, like, two or three other pieces of journalism. So that's why it's possible. I am not going out and reporting four stories start to finish every week.

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And when I look at what other great columnists do, like Ben Smith at the Times was one of my heroes writing his media column, like, he only got one swing every single week, and he just tried to bring the best reporting he could.

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I... What Ben Smith does would've been much harder for me, right? I used to get so paralyzed with fear when my editor would come in to me once a week and say, "What are you working on?" You know?

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For me, the newsletter was a way to say, like, "What I'm gonna work on is, like, trying to make sense of this insane world that we're living in right now." Yeah. Like, I'm gonna try to connect some dots. I'm gonna...

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You know, my, my newsletter comes out at 5:00 PM Pacific every day, and there's a reason for that, which is I started it when Facebook was in absolute crisis, and then it became multiple branching crises.

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Those people were in meetings all day. They wanted a place where they could go at the end of the day to figure out what the hell happened when they were in meetings, right?

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That's why it started out five days a week, 'cause there was something to write about every day. You know, Cambridge Analytica happened.

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There was five columns a week to be written about Cambridge Analytica, and it engendered so much goodwill among my readers, right?

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'Cause I was there doing something for them, and I figured out a way that I could write at a cadence that, that made sense. I am a pretty fast writer. That's helpful, right?

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But, like, in a weird way, it's easier for me to write four columns than it would be for me to write one or two, because that just puts so much pressure on you, and you're sort of a little bit- Yeah...

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out of the news cycle at that point, right?

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That's the amazing thing about four days a week, is, like, I wake up and I know my job will be to write about the most important thing that day, and it's usually not up to me to decide what is the most important thing that day.

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So it takes a lot of pressure off me. Have you ever written for magazines? A, a handful of times. Yeah. Like, I, I wrote for a magazine.

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Like, I had a page in a magazine for y- many years, and, like, it was, it, it was that. Like, it was, like, actually really hard, 'cause it was like, it's [laughs] the end of the...

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Like, you can't just g- grab onto a news cycle, and, like, you've gotta come with something totally, totally original. And this isn't something like, "Oh, can we embargo this? And will it hold?" It's like- No, no. Yes.

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Also, by the way, readers can tell when you're phoning it in. Reader... You know, readers can tell if you didn't have a good idea that day, right? And, um, in a weird...

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Because I write so much, I think readers are very forgiving, 'cause they're like, "Well, he writes four a week," you know? [laughs] He writes...

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If he writes four a week, and, like, one or two of them weren't great, it's like, "Well, he writes four a week."

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Like, that's actually my terror about going down to three, is, like, [laughs] I do, I feel like it really ups the pressure on me, and I'm just, you know, hoping people like the podcast enough to put up with it.

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But, so you're going down to three. So what was the... Like, you said this, like, four, like- Yeah... worked, and you're- Yeah... you, you're able to do it very quickly, I guess. And, like- Yeah...

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but I just think, like, it's volume. Like, I mean, anyone who gets into this, like, and this is why, you know, I see...

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There's a lot of people who are, like, you know, who have, like, been on the non-journalist side that, like, are like, "Oh, I'll do, like, an- the newsletter and stuff," and they have, like, deep expertise.

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And I'm just like, "That's, this is great in theory and stuff like this," but do not underrate the ability to produce, like, good copy. Forget about great. Yeah. Good copy several times a week. Really hard. Yeah.

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It's hard to do once a week, frankly, for most people. Yeah. Yeah, I mean, look, I'm 20 years into my career. I've been writing for a long time. I've just been training that muscle.

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I've been writing on deadline- Yeah, exactly... almost every day since I was 21, you know? So, like, that comes in really handy. The other thing I would say, I authentically love the stuff that I write about.

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I wake up every day, and I am thrilled to find out what happened to Facebook and YouTube and Snapchat and Twitter overnight, right?

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And when something pops up like BeReal, I'm like, "What is the fastest I can get in front of the BeReal CEO? Tell me everything about your life. What are you gonna do?

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I know 15 things that are about to happen to your business. How many of them have you thought of," right? Like, that stuff just electrifies me.

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And when I talk to most reporters about their beats, one, the beat was assigned to them, right? Yeah. The, the publication said, "We need a Google reporter," and you said, "Well, okay, I guess I'll cover Google," right?

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And that's, like, 85% of the workforce in business and tech journalism.

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So the people who are covering the beat that is the thing that they're authentically curious about is vanishingly small, and I think it's a huge reason why more people haven't started these kind of solo businesses. Yeah.

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I think that's a great point, because, like, I would always, like, advocate for people, like, going narrow and deep.

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I know, like, for myself, like, I just looked around at, like, at J-school, which is a mistake anyway, but, like, I looked around and it was, like, way more talented people, and I was like, "Oh, shit." [laughs] Yeah.

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So I was like, "I gotta specialize hopefully where they're not specializing." And I was like- Oh, completely... "Ah, online advertising." [laughs] Dude, it's so real, though.

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And, like, one thing, I also went to J-school. One thing I wish they had told us then is there are many different ways to be good at journalism, you know? Yeah. Like, one of my heroes is Kara Swisher.

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I rent a house from her [laughs] that I'm in right now. Oh, really? And she's... Yeah, breaking news. It's some- something we've, we talk about a lot. But she loves to interrupt people. She loves to annoy people, right?

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She loves to just call people up and just demand answers, right? I hate all of these things. I hate making people feel uncomfortable.

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[laughs] I hate it when I ask a question and I can see that there's sort of, like, a pained expression in their face. I would rather, like, not, like, make the cold call, you know?

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I would rather have somebody send me an email and be like, "Hey, you should, like, look into this thing," you know?

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[laughs] So it's like these are all terrible traits for a journalist, but I have, like, found a form and, like, a way of work- Yeah...

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that, that hides all of the weaknesses and emphasizes the strengths, and any journalist can do that. Yeah. It's like finding your leverage. I mean, this is something that- Yes...

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everyone on the business and sales side knows.

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Like, everything is leverage on the sales side, and I just wish, like, there was, like, of the courses that we should've been taught in school, like finances and stuff like this, but, like, leverage. Yeah.

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Like, just do a day on leverage, because, like, basically the entire world is, revolves around, like, what leverage do you have, and it's the same as, like, a person.

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Like, you think about, like, "What differentiates me in the market, and what gives me leverage?" 'Cause otherwise, and if you're in journalism, they will replace you with someone cheaper, I promise you.

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[laughs] Like- 100%... we sublet leased from Business Insider.

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When I got on the elevator and looked around at people, like, that were, like, far, far younger than me, it wasn't because they understood TikTok better than people my age. Yeah. Yeah. 100, 100%. It just wasn't.

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It's real. It's real. All right. It has been real. We didn't get the ad network up and running, but if anyone wants to run any ads on Platformer, just contact me and I'll work a deal out.

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[laughs] Thank you so, so much, Brian. All right, Casey. This was fun. Appreciate it. This was fun. Thank you so much for having me on your podcast.

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People, go to platformer.news, and starting October 7th, you can hear our new show at The New York Times. It'll be a lot of fun. Awesome. All right. Thank you for listening this week.

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We will be back next week with a new episode. The Rebooting show is produced by Podhelpus. Podcasts are a great way to expand your client base.

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Podhelpus lets you focus on having engaging conversations, giving your brand the full stack of services needed for a professional look and sound. Start your podcast today at podhelp.us.

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