So I flipped the coin, and it was heads, and that was, like, my decision to call up my boss and just say, "Hey, like, I quit, effective immediately." Put my two weeks in. Was your boss like, "What's the new opportunity?"
[laughs] You're like, "I'm gonna make memes," or... [laughs] No, I, I said, uh, "I'm, I'm gonna focus on something entrepreneurial." [laughs] Okay. Very vague. You know, I didn't want anyone to know what it was.
Oh, okay. So, like, I wanna just l- address the pseudon- pseud-onymity. I always, like, screw up that word. [laughs] So I might just say anonymous.
[upbeat music] Welcome to the Rebooting Show. I'm Brian Morrissey.
Each week, I talk to those who are building sustainable media businesses, and you know, I've done a podcast for, like, seven years now, and, um, rarely do I have a first, but this week I have a couple firsts.
One, I'm talking to a full-fledged meme lord, and second, I'm talking to a pseudonym.
Um, Liquidity is a media brand that began back in two thousand seventeen as an Instagram meme account, um, created by an investment banker, AKA Lit.
The account proved wildly popular, enough that Lit has turned it into a full-scale operation with a daily newsletter called Exec Sum, a podcast called Big Swinging Dicks, I highly recommend you check it out, um, while also operating as a scout for Bing Capital and also doing some of your own early-stage investing.
I think we're both, um, investors in Beehive, Lit. Um- Hey, yeah. There you go... little known fact. Um, and then selling merch and all kinds of things.
But I also, I, I wanted to have you on because, like, of, I think of Liquidity as a great example of a new breed of media company.
I don't even know if you consider it a media company, but using, using media, um, to establish, um, a different kind of connection with, with an audience. So really excited to get into it with you, Lit. Yeah.
Thanks for having me. Um, so as I said, first time I've ever, uh, had a full conversation, um, with a, uh, with a pseudonym. Um, but bring us back. Like, for those who don't know Liquidity, g- give me the origin story.
What happened back in two thousand seventeen that just, that made you think- Mm... okay, memes, finance, let's do it? Yeah.
So I will take it back a little further to when I was in college and interned at an investment...
I went through the whole boot camp, a lot of late nights, and just, like, learning as I went, and it was, um, really tough and really reminded me of the pledging process in a fraternity in college and saw a lot of parallels and so thought it would be interesting to chronicle the tales of a junior investment banker through some sort of medium, right?
And my inspiration really started with this brand that was called Total Frat Move.
I think they're still around, but they were, like, in their heyday when I was in college, and it was just, like, satirical stuff around fraternity humors and, like, making fun of the, the douchebags- Yeah...
that you'll see. And I thought, hey, like, once I get enough, like, experience on Wall Street, know how to actually build out a website, like, I'll do that.
So then I went into the workforce and spent a few years, uh, working in investment banking, where I was covering tech, media, and telecom companies, just in, in all sorts of different types of products, IPOs, M&A, debt raises, et cetera.
And so right after that, I, I didn't have any time to focus on this. It was pretty much on the back burner.
Fast-forward to when I transitioned over to the buy side, I was at a small private equity fund where I was able to actually have some free time and get back home when there was sunlight, and so found myself with free time.
And so one day, I was, like, back with my friends pre-gaming to go out to, to the bars, like every early to mid 20-year-old would be doing in New York City, and the idea just, like, popped back up in my mind of, hey, remember that idea, like, I was talking about in college?
I think I should do it. And Instagram just proved the easiest way to do it without the knowledge of how to format a website or web development or anything like that.
So launched it and woke up the next morning hungover with an Instagram account that needed to be named. [laughs] See, I would always just buy, uh, domain names. That's how I have a lot of weird domains.
Um, but, like, explain the, the meme, uh, why you were attracted to memes. And I think part of this is just, I think we can say, like, you're in your, like, early 30s, I'm guessing. Mm. Yeah. Yeah? Yep. I don't know.
I'm judging you. [laughs] I'm, I'm, I'm talking to a, a cartoon pixel, a, a pixelated cartoon head- You're way further on... so I'm guessing. Yeah.
[laughs] But, like, no, I think, like, memes, memes have always been a challenge for someone like my age, right? Because, like- Mm-hmm... I, I never, I di- I never got them.
I didn't, I didn't understand this form of communication. And I remember thinking, like, they were something of a fad. Mm-hmm. Um, and then, like, uh, we had a conference where I was interviewing...
You remember Icon Has Cheeseburger? Oh, yeah. Those are one of the or- original sort of meme things- Oh, jeez, yeah... with Ben Huh. Mm-hmm. Yeah. And, like, I was like, "This meme stuff."
And he's like, "No, this is a new form of, like, communication and art, and you really gotta, like, figure it out." Yeah. And I was like, "I'm never gonna figure it out." But why, why did you sort of, um...
What attracted you to, to memes as, like, the vehicle? I mean, like you said- Mm... like, it's, it, it was easier, I guess, to, like, start an Instagram account with this, but, like, why memes? Why memes?
I think it was just such a digestible format that was popular on Instagram when I was just scrolling through it myself. Like,
no- normally, there's some downtime at work, and I would just, like, pull up my phone and start scrolling. This was before I was even on Twitter, so Instagram was either pictures of friends or, or memes.
And so that's kind of where I was, like, consuming memes that were very generalist, like, broad humor that was like, oh, okay, th-It's kind of funny, but not really like my niche sense of humor.
And then there was one account that, uh, when I was in banking that I was following, I was really interested in this one, it was called Dad, and it was focused on like trust fund humor, like, oh, my dad's rich and works at a private equity fund and flies in a private jet.
And I just thought like, okay, this is very different from a mass humor meme account and thought it was the funniest thing for a while, and I was sharing it with my friends who were also in the same early investment banking or private equity realm.
So we really connected on a deeper level from that, just sharing it. And then, um- Yeah...
and then he just like went radio silent and stopped posting, and I just-- it coincided with when I had made my transition and I was like, "Hey, like I might as well just do this because I really love that."
Um, it just stems back to that time in college- But I think what's also interesting is that it's a, it's like a sort of native form of storytelling for that sort of generation, right?
And like I think that's important because like when I think about... 'cause I think about like finance, um, I'm not in finance although I'm, I'm, ah, I'm doing this like three blocks away from Wall Street.
Um, but, um, what I think is interesting is that finance media is not like, you know, the people in the trenches, right?
Like, so I mean, I had a lot of friends like who, who worked in finance and stuff like this, but, you know, they're like, you know, the way they describe their, their life and like they were just like normal dudes and stuff like this, um, was totally different than the very dry finance media.
And this is a, a natural way of, um, I don't know, of like, of, of communicating. 'Cause I think, and tell me if I'm wrong, but I feel like finance like has a lot of gallows humor. Yeah.
Like I think journalism has a lot of gallows humor too, but like it's a different type of in finance, but this, it exists. Mm-hmm. Yeah.
I, I would say that one thing that I felt was lacking, real insider baseball type humor where
you look at CNBC or Bloomberg or whatnot, you'd mention this, that it's probably people who aren't insiders that are reporting on news or talking about the stock markets and just reporting matter of facts.
And I thought there's a lot of gossip, there's jokes, a lot of things that people like to joke about, and that's kind of what I wanted to fill.
I mean, for example, the joke back in my day was everyone was harping on UBS, Jefferies as like the, the banks that you like throw mud at.
And then I thought, oh, like when Deutsche Bank was going through a string of terrible headlines, that was when I started the DB, not a BB campaign.
And everyone kind of knew that because everyone was like, well, yeah, they're a bulge bracket bank, but it's not at the same level as a Goldman Sachs or JP Morgan. And so like, it- Yeah...
it just resonated immediately because everyone's thinking the same thing. So it's not something that you're gonna see a, a reporter take a stance on or anyone inside- Yeah...
take a stance on publicly unless maybe they're a hedge fund or not subject to, I don't know, some repercussions. And so that's also explains why I started honestly- Yeah. But I mean, people go to the top-...
because I didn't wanna get fired... in general when they cover like, you know, they, they write it for the bosses not, um...
And I think what's interesting in finance is, is for those outside of the industry, they always, their, their minds go to like the, the Jamie Dimons and the top of the industry, but like armies, they're armies of analysts who are, whose lives are- Right.
Yep... you know, they might be, you know, well compensated compared to most po- Yep... um, professions are like, not fun, right? Yeah. Well, well, that's definitely another thing. Yeah.
And going back to how it's portrayed in the media or even on, in, in Hollywood, you had Wall Street or Wolf of Wall Street, like it was all about the big dogs, the people who were at the top and making millions, and it's not really centered in the junior bankers who were living pretty ordinary lives relative to the high flying CEOs or whatever.
And so that's also something I thought- Yeah. So I mean, basically-... should be, you know, highlighted too... 'cause I always think like media brands, I always ask people, I'm like, "Who is it for?"
So I mean, it's like to me it's pretty clear, but it's, it's for people who, for the most part, right, that are like early going into like their mid-careers at, at, uh, in the finance industry at banks. Yeah? Yeah.
I would say, um, I've been broadening my focus from just like people who were in like the mid-levels or junior levels to more senior appeal and also even more junior, so that there's like a journey of getting people into the-- I think the newsletter serves that purpose of just getting people to establish a habit of following news up to when they're actually going through it, then the Instagram memes are gonna make so much more sense.
And then when they're looking for higher value add opportunities, that's where I am trying to help in giving access to deal flow through early stage investment opportunities or other things that are targeted to, you know- Yeah...
accredited investors or qualified purchasers. So when did you decide that this could be a full-time thing? Like this is gonna be like what you do for a living, not like as a side hustle.
[laughs] I decided that probably pre-pandemic, but it wasn't at the stage where I could actually take the leap. So I kind of knew that was what...
there was something there, but the revenue at the moment wasn't enough to justify leaving a pretty high paying job.
And also like, okay, what am I actually gonna do with this that will not fully rely on just me being funny and having some memes that could be a fad? And so that's when the pandemic really set in, in early twenty twenty.
I was like, okay, well it's definitely not a good time to leave right now.
So I hunkered down and was able to get more work done on liquidity because I was at home and no one was like over my shoulders looking to see if I was actually doing work or anything like that.
And everyone was like, kind of-Trying to decompress. I mean, it was a very stressful time.
So I did it for a couple months and really put my head down to think of, like, a business plan and ways to actually monetize this.
And then fast-forward to a few months later, towards the end of 2020, I got to the point I just couldn't do both and had to dedicate, um- [laughs]...
to one or the other, so I flipped a coin, and it was heads, and that was, like, my decision to call up my boss and just say, "Hey, like, I quit, effective immediately."
[laughs] Put my two weeks in, you know- Did your boss-- Was your boss like, "What, w-what's the new opportunity?" [laughs] You're like, "I'm gonna make memes," or... [laughs] No.
[laughs] I said, uh, "I'm, I'm gonna focus on something entrepreneurial." [laughs] Okay. Very vague. You know, I didn't want anyone to know what it was. Oh, okay. So, like, I-I...
So and then, like, you know, the expansion took place, but I wanna just, like, address the pseuden-pseudonymity. I always, like, screw up that word. [laughs] So I might just say anonymous- It's in here...
'cause it is a little different. Um, I- Yeah... there's obviously, you know, marketing, like, people love mystery. The Masked, Masked Magician or whatever [laughs] I remember back when I was a kid or whatever.
Um, but, like, a-and so I get that, that, that has, like, an appeal. But is it still, like, an important part of the brand, or is, is this just, um... Like, is...
Because there's not, like, a reason for you to be pseudonymous, pseudonymous now.
[laughs] Yeah, I would say that I've just had a good thing going and w-would much rather not have to be a public figure if I didn't have to be.
I think there are, there are so many people that are like, "Dude, why don't you reveal yourself? You'll get on the front cover of Bloomberg or whatever."
And I have, like, people saying, "Hey, I wanna cover this reveal," and I'm...
Like, to me, I just have no interest in that because I do see the toxicity of social media where if you're a public figure and you're poking fun at people sometimes, even if it's, like, not really malicious, which I try not to approach things maliciously, you have a lot of psychos out there who will do anything to dig up your history, your address, anything, track you down and, like, really dissect every piece of your life.
And so that's one thing that I just say, "Look," like I want people to critique me or like my brand because of my humor or content that I put out rather than just the, I don't know, outward appearance or anything like that, although I would say I look like a pretty- Yeah...
a regular person in finance and do a lot of those things. So it's, um, it-it's just something that I think for me is more of, like, a, um- Yeah... nice mental health type of thing, and no, no- Okay.
But your friends and family, your friends and family know you're... Right? Yeah. Yeah, they, they definitely know that. I mean, I- Yeah.
[laughs] You're not, like, a secret agent where you have, like, a fake job or something like that. [laughs] No, yeah. Yeah, I'm not- It's like, "I'm a flight attendant, actually."
[laughs] No, it's, um, th-they do know, and my friends who also sometimes have loose lips in, in their teams are like, "Oh, I know who he is"- Okay...
or whatever, but I've also done the same when I'm very intoxicated and I'm just like, "Hey, look, ch-check out my Instagram account." But- Don't you know who I am? Uh.
[laughs] You gotta pull that card at Carbone sometimes, you know? [laughs] They'll be like, "Okay, get in the back of the line." [laughs] Yeah. I don't give a shit, buddy. Um, take your... It's Miami. Get- Exactly.
Take your meme account. Get, get behind all the OnlyFans, uh, ladies. Yeah, exactly. Um, s- [laughs] So, uh, so e-explain how you thought about, like, first of all, the business plan of, like, building this out.
So I obviously had started off with some merchandise and some story advertisements on Instagram.
It's just basically, "Hey, here's a shout-out," or a brand wanted to test something with a link in my bio or all of, like, the influencer-type marketing tricks.
And so I was like, "Okay, I'll try these things out," but I don't think they're, like, the highest value monetization paths to go through because you'll saturate your audience with ads. People hate ads.
They'll be like, "Oh, you sold out. Shit sucks," whatever, and that's the end of that. So I really thought of how can I provide value to my audience in a way that it would also make sense monetarily.
So I looked at the newsletter model, just having spoken to others in the industry and having seen trends in the space.
I said, "Hey, I think this could be a pretty interesting one to tackle," and it doesn't require me having my face out publicly.
It's just writing something and then monetizing through advertisements and maybe subscriptions, which I'm not doing yet, but that was the immediate next step, and that's what I did.
And after leaving my job, it was focusing on how to launch Exec Sum.
And then from there, it was just building out the rest of the media properties which as I'm sure you've, you've seen plenty of times, and everyone seemingly doing the same thing.
It's podcasting, it's job boards, it's events, you name it, and it's what I set out to do, but I think in a slightly different approach.
And I think also the end market that I speak to is also, uh, th-there's a lot of opportunities for investing.
So that's one thing that I also have started to incorporate, and it's been growing steadily, and hopefully that's where things are gonna be more of focus, where I can build out a
investing brand and profile and fund and then use the distribution that I've built to still monetize it but also provide value to the portfolio companies. Yeah.
And I think that's, like, what's, you know, a really interesting, um, thing that we're seeing is, like, people, particularly with expertise- Mm-hmm... right, who start or are using publishing as the front end- Yep...
to different business models, right? It's 'cause I feel like, you know, when you're in media or publishing, you're like, you're, you're very dogmatic. Like, you talk to people, and it's like, "Are you gonna do ads?
Are you gonna do subs? Are you gonna do events?" and stuff like this. Right. But when you have, like, credibility within a community, there's a bunch of different ways you can make money.Yeah. And, and it's not- Yeah.
And it's not just- Um... the relationship of it's a publisher, and they're the viewers or whatever. It's, a lot of people have sent me messages saying, "Thank you so much for what you do," for Exec Sum.
"It's such a simple read. It saves me so much time." Or they, they looked good in front of their boss when they asked them if they knew about certain news, and they read about it.
So it's really just honing in on like, what do people in this community actually need rather than- Yeah... putting whatever- Yeah... is out there. I mean, it's having that sort of empathy of having been- Yeah...
that person, right? Like, so it's like sort of an obvious thing that I think sometimes like quote, unquote like "professional capital J journalist" miss is like when you're like within...
When you're a member of the community, you have like an innate feel for, you know, the mores of that community and for the, the real things people care about, not the things people like pretend to care about. Exactly.
Um, because like I think what's interesting with Exec Sum is because I'm, I'm an Exec Sum reader even though I'm not in finance, it is you've sort of been able to translate that into...
You know, it's like, it's not like I don't mean to like take away from memes 'cause I don't like- Yeah... I don't, I don't cast aspersions on, on different communication modes, but it, it's qualitatively- Mm-hmm...
different. Yep. I, and I agree. And I think that was one thing that was necessary because when people thought finance memes, that's very easy to just portray memes as, oh, okay, like there's no substance behind it.
And when you think about like what was happening with GameStop or the, the whole WallStreetBets, whatever, that was the rise of finance memes in a, a very different spectrum of sophistication, if you will, where it's like lowbrow humor.
It's focused on like retail traders who have like o- just opened up a Robinhood account. And the humor's very different.
It's all about being a degenerate gambler type thing, and all that's all self-deprecating versus what I wanted to distinguish myself with was that it's more the like lifestyle, the humor of someone who worked in a major investment bank or an institutional fund or something like that where the humor is more nuanced.
And so audience that it appeals to is also looking for something different than just memes. And so that's why I found a way to use the memes as the top of funnel.
They're like, "Hey, like, this guy gets it," and like, "I can appeal. That resonates with me, and so I can trust that this person knows what he's saying if he's gonna start delivering news or something."
And so it was hard at first to get people to find the value of Exec Sum because they thought it was gonna be something that's like very WallStreetBets-ish.
And they're like, "Oh, wow, there's actually good information there" And I was like, "Yeah, okay. Well, that's the plan." So it's- Yeah... yeah, it's starting to catch on. Yeah.
I mean, like I'm an Exec Sum, but I'm not, I'm not into the memes. [laughs] But I'm into the Exec Sum, so I'm sure you'll find that. How many, how many subscribers do you have now to Exec Sum? Yeah.
Well, over 160,000, and so the vast majority has organically a- acquired, so that's through promoting on social media, you know, with my audience.
And we just started testing out paid social, which I know is a, another channel, but I like to think the same exact people that- Yeah...
follow me are pretty much the ones that are reading Exec Sum, so it's great to have like a deepened relationship with everyone that way. Yeah. So okay, so, so the business model, you've got, you've got an ads business.
Yeah. Like, I mean, you run ads like, uh, uh, still through, you know, an Instagram or, or, you know, with the meme accounts. And then Exec Sum I see usually monetized. Yep. Um, I'm always looking- [laughs]...
for the ads. Yep. Uh, a-a-and then you've got investing that you're also doing. Mm-hmm. Yep, correct. Yeah. So, and then, and then merchandise, right? Yep. Oh, two- Explain the business model. It's I, I...
That's, that's most of what I can see.
That is, um, primarily it's, it's hard to boil it down into like a simple playbook w- where you got a newsletter, and you're monetizing through ads, and you grow the list, and you do more.
Like, that's just one of many things that I think the brand could do, and I'm obviously doing it as one pillar.
But think of the content, it's monetizing through ads on my stories or hosted giveaways with sponsors, other things like that.
And then on the newsletter, it's right now just ad-based, but I think there's also a strategy that could be implemented on converting people into premium content, where that's getting a little deeper into data or other insights or whatever that's gonna be much more time intensive to put together that people already spend tens of thousands of dollars doing, and I would provide it at a much cheaper level.
And then, yeah, just a lot of other ways to [laughs] uh, monetize. Yeah. So is this a publishing business that also has an, an investing arm, or is this like an investing business that has a publishing arm?
I would say that it was the latter, or rather the former, where it was a publisher with, um, a small investing arm, and then now it's, uh, shifting towards more of a, a investing firm with a publishing arm.
And that's how I want that to be viewed going forward as I continue to build out the credibility, the track record, and hopefully soon raising the capital for a fund to deploy and invest in companies.
So it's a long road, but, um- Yeah... yeah, the, the pendulum's gonna be shifting the other way. Yeah. I'm gonna have to say the word again. Now, how does the pseudonym- [laughs]...
nymity like work with the investing side? Mm. 'Cause I mean, it's, it's obviously your, your real name is, is on all the documents and what stuff like this.
But like do you think it holds back that as you move towards, you know, more emphasis on the investing part?I mean, advertisers don't care. They'll, they'll cut a check to whoever has audience. [chuckles] Yeah.
Well, I think, uh, the distinction that, that you make with pseudonym versus anonymity is just that people know there's someone that's at least decently credible behind that.
Like, my voice is out there, people know Liquidity is one person, and it's really... Yeah. Instead of, like, a complete, like, anonymous person that absolutely nothing's known about. So with that said, like,
honestly, like, probably half of, like, the portfolio companies that I've invested in don't know my actual name, but they do know my LLC's name that I invest out of.
So it's something, it's trust where, hey, like, we've spoken to Lit on the phone, and we've met him in person or something like that, but it's just, hey, you know that about me, but you don't know, like, my social security number or my first and last name or anything like that.
Yeah. [chuckles] And so I think that's sort of been interesting to see, like, people's trust in that solely through the brand that has been built on social and detached from all of my prior identity and work.
So it's, um, fascinating to me sometimes. Yeah. So I mean, like, there's a lot of talk about, like, creators and personal brands and stuff like this, and I do think there's something going on.
People trust other people more than they do, like, faceless- Mm-hmm.... um, institutions, even if the, the person is a pseudonym.
Um, e-talk to me a little bit about the challenge of, like, going from, like, a one-person thing and, like, everything being about you in, at, in- Mm-hmm.... a-as Lit, um, to expanding it into, like, a media company.
You had written re- Mm-hmm. This is actually when I wrote you, 'cause I think you said, like, building an independent company is hard as an MF- Yeah. [chuckles]... which resonated with me. [chuckles] Yeah.
It, it-- So that, that was one thing that I just realized, um, over the past year, growing out the team and thinking about the funding that goes behind it and really what it would take to make it into something that's at the scale of Axios, which they were recording, is, like, the big news that they were just...
Like, they had- Yeah.... massive exit. And so to me, that was kind of like the vision of an Axios meets Barstool Sports and using Liquidity as kind of the brand to help supercharge that growth.
And one of the things that I found difficult was
having the entire brand being tied to my humor and my voice and everything like that, where if you start to introduce other creators or elements who don't fit that, then it starts to dilute that brand, and, and then it also leaves me, like, wanting to be anonymous without an actual identity if people view Liquidity as an entity rather than a single anonym- Yeah.
So I mean, you had, like, I know, I know Mark, uh, y- Mm-hmm. Like Mark Moran had joined you, and now he's sort of parting ways, but you guys are still doing the podcast- Yep.... and stuff like this. Explain that- Yeah.
... a little bit because that's also why, 'cause you ca-you called a Bloomberg editor [chuckles] who edited out your quote a, a grease ball, which I found hilarious- No, yeah. It-... for some reason.
[laughs] Um, basically, like, Mark was the first person I brought on, and this was kind of the, the trial and error in, in the sense of we're figuring things out as it goes.
And as people started to become familiar with Mark, they've started to view him as Liquidity, and it's like, "Oh, like, I thought that was Lit himself, too," which was weird and kind of left me like, where am I in this whole thing, even though, like, I'm running, like, the whole show and Mark was, um, very instrumental in implementing a lot of things and, like, building out that new branch, which was investor relations.
It, it, it got to a point where we, we had slight-slightly different s-opinions in how the team should be built and, and also just, like, the structure of employee versus boss type setup, and it was, okay, well, who's owning what, and how do you really think about that?
And I think the-- where we ended up with was having Mark dedicate his whole time there because clearly he wanted to do that, and, like, I think for me it's easier for him- With the, with the IR thing.
The investor relations- The investor relations... um, business that- Yeah.
That was something that he spearheaded and just wanted to focus his time on fully, whereas what I needed more of it was full support on newsletter operations, on expanding the merch and, and other things where hiring other people would also assist in, in
executing on all these things. But I think looking back at it, it's
probably for the better that it's structured this way because this way Mark, his own skin in the game in the sense that he has to go out and build out the business, and then w-I can still support him in that role, and then that eliminates that sort of friction of how do you view Liquidity as, like, a brand versus, like, an individual creator, and, like, I can have more control over how I wanna do the newsletter and how I wanna grow the merch business and everything else.
You know, just, uh, keep the overhead and ownership lines pretty well delineated. Yeah.
So how is it-- So 'cause I think that's, it's, like, the hardest thing, right, of, like, going from, like, a one-person thing to multi-person 'cause like you said, like, you can either, like, dilute what made it valuable- Mm-hmm.
... in the first place. I mean, 'cause... But then on the other hand, you know, one person- Mm-hmm.... scales only so much. And like, you know, that's, it's like there's the MrBeast model. Right.
There's all sorts of different models, but like, and I think it's really hard to get, to get right from the start. But having- Mm-hmm.
Now having, like, experience with that, like, how are you thinking about the expansion? Well, I would say MrBeast is a good example of MrBeast is himself.
He is, like, that is his brand, and the way that he's grown is through building businesses around his brand and his distribution, whereas people are not... OrWhere people are not looking to buy a stake in Mr.
Beast's, I don't know, YouTube account or his persona, which that's kind of what I wanted to delineate when I was going out to investors or bringing people on board in that like, "Hey, like, liquidity is going to be my online brand and identity, but my team will help grow all these channels the same way that Mr.
Beast will have editors, will have other things." You get into the venture side of the business, you get into Mr. Beast Burger, all these other businesses, and the businesses themselves are different than
him as a creator, if that makes sense. Okay. So it's-- it-- yeah, no, it makes total sense. But it sounds like you're going more towards like having a, a, like a creator-focused business versus like- Mm-hmm.
For instance, like Barstool. Like I think-- or even like you use, uh, like the Ringer- Sure... with like Bill Simmons.
I think there's kind of two sides to the same coin and that like they use their personal brands that, you know, people were gravitated to, there was a community around, but then they brought in other- Mm-hmm. Yeah...
characters, right? Exactly. So, yep. Are you thinking, are you thinking of doing the same thing of having like a collection of different like characters or like- I, I-... any better word?
What I would say right now is probably not having that collection of characters and being in charge of them bec- what I like to do is do my own thing right now, and it's a lot of responsibility to micromanage people- Yeah...
and say, like, "This is content that's great and what I think is representative of the brand or whatnot."
And like i-it's such a differentiated type of content that requires, one, like financial knowledge, and two, insider baseball knowledge, and three, humor.
It's like hard to delegate that because the, that pool is very limited for people who actually wanna dedicate themselves full time to doing it.
And so that's why I'm focused on just saying, "Hey, look, let's grow as-- we can grow
as a partnership in the sense that it's not one organization like Barstool Sports, where everyone there who's a creator of Barstool is an employee and represents Barstool.
It's more of a network of individuals who work together in certain ways that it's kind of decentralized in that sense, where Mark is able to grow investor relations, but he's gonna need audiences of different creators to help scale the reach of retail campaign to, to get them to understand what certain companies do.
Or I don't know how to scale out a recruiting business, but it's something where I can help because I do have all the first-year analysts at investment banks or junior venture capital associates who want the next thing.
And so partnering up with someone who wants to really take the lead on that and build it out and then have me support them, so it's not me being like the boss of everyone and delegating everyone.
Everyone kind of has their own lanes to run in, and we can all benefit from it together. Yeah, okay. That makes sense. That's kind of like the pump model.
Yeah, I would say, uh, the pump, you know, is someone I should have mentioned before too, that he, he's done it well in, in terms of having a pretty large brand, a lot of investments, newsletters, podcasts, you name it, and it's the pump brand.
It's not, you know, uh, some other media organization. It's tied to his identity. And so, um- Yeah... that's what I want people to know liquidity as. It's my identity- Right...
the online i-identity for a individual rather than a brand. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So, um, the last thing I wanna talk about is like, you know, this really took off during COVID, right?
Like, and I think what's really interesting is like early on with, with publishing companies, I'm sure any company, like you're looking for signals, right? That, that this thing is working and that it's taking off.
And the signals come in, in all sorts of different form. It can, it can be on spreadsheets and things like, um, audience growth and subscribers and stuff. It can be ad deals, it can be all sorts of different things.
But like sometimes I think you can get like false signals depending on the market, right? We were in like a crazy- Right... crazy market. Oh, yeah.
Like with crypto, with fintech, like with everything, everything up and to the right. I opened up a, a, a Robinhood account. I've like lost my shirt. Yep. I'm like right back to index funds.
[laughs] I'm like, "I'm done with this stuff." That euphoria, yeah. Mm-hmm. Now, you benefited from that, right?
[laughs] Yeah, I've di- I know, I know what I don't know, and this is what-- this is one of the things I don't know. Um, you got- you, you benefited from this, right?
I mean, 'cause people were, you know, when assets are inflated to such a, you know, the cost of acquisition had to be so high for these companies, right?
Are you seeing a comedown now that all the asset valuations are down so, so much?
That's, yeah, it's, it's interesting because I'm seeing a slowdown in advertisers reaching out, and I think it's just a broad-based pullback.
But I think it's not gonna be as deep as the, I don't know, more splashy type sponsorships or whatnot for like major sports arenas or things that, like, you can't really track performance on. Yeah.
And so one thing that I've prided myself in is the engagement and the results that I'm able to deliver to sponsors. So continue to see interest from advertisers.
They say, "Hey, look, I mean, at least we can track the link clicks and conversion, and it's relatively cheap compared to other forms of, of marketing that is also tied to a actual community."
And that's, that's what I'm seeing here. So yeah, there's definitely been, uh, a little bit of a slowdown, but I think that's where what makes it more interesting now is to focus also- Yeah...
on the investor side of things, where valuations are compressing for startups, and my audience also has capital on the sidelines that they're looking to deploy.
And I think now is a good time to double down on that and, and get in. I mean, we're not in '08 or anything like that right now. Right.
But you think about if you started investing in companies in, you know, '08, '09, like when the market was at a bottom and rode that ten-year cycle up, that was a pretty good entry point.So that's why-- that's kind of why I'm, you know- Yeah...
shifting the pendulum there right now.
But I think just having exposure from the investing side and then also being able to monetize through advertisements and subscriptions and merch just makes it so that I'm not exposed to any one single macro vet.
Yeah. Yeah. Well, it's like I always just think it's like I just see who's sponsoring stuff. [chuckles] Yeah. I'm like, man, the crypto meltdown is gonna like hurt a ton of people, man. Your resource people, yeah.
[chuckles] 'Cause they were-- Yeah. Yeah. They didn't have big marketing departments, and they [chuckles] they just were like bazooking money out there 'cause they were just in a land grab mode. Yep.
I know you, you had like what? CoinFlex like- Yeah... struck a deal I mentioned- Yeah, that was-... in my newsletter. Yeah. Right? [chuckles] But now they're- [chuckles] I don't know where they are right now.
Yeah, that's-- Yeah. Um, so give, give me some figures before we go. Uh- Like what-- how big is the business? One employee, or rather, sorry, zero employees, as Bloomberg said. Um, but I'm, uh, still here.
There, there's a team of four of us that it's all like part-time and contractor based, so I didn't want them to get ignored, but unfortunately, that's how the Bloomberg thing came across.
Second, I'd say revenue, you know, it's, um, definitely trending up from last year, where last year came in at around one million, and hopefully it's a little over two this year.
And I mean, it's definitely just seeing how Q4 shakes out, but it's been good just to keep it there, and yeah, I don't know what other types of metrics would, you know. No, I mean, that's it. The, the re- Mm-hmm...
the revenue is, is a good metric, right? I mean, so it's like, to me, it's like this absolutely works as a, as a one person plus- Mm-hmm... like, you know, a team, uh, business.
And just-- it's just a matter of getting from that, like, you know, one plus, you know- Mm-hmm... the four part-time and stuff like this to like, you know, having a, a bigger business.
It's just- The, the, uh- That's just, that's just the challenge...
the challenge I'll say there is if that's the revenue, and then it's reinvesting all of it to grow the business, there's a lot more risk that's introduced into that model, and my trade-off is, hey, like I could get all this into my pocket as my income, you know, if I make the decision- Yeah...
to hire out a team and then pay salaries and all that stuff, then it's kind of like, all right, well, I gotta pay myself like a startup media founder salary for like a
riskier payout that will probably happen five years down the road or anything like that. So I was like, it was a, a tough decision, but- Yeah...
I think now it's just, it's liberating to say, "Hey, [chuckles] well, now all of my efforts are actually going- Yeah... straight to my bank account, and I can manage the relationships whichever way I want."
The last thing I would say was the conflict of interest that would've been growing in having the media side of things with the venture arm.
Part of the value add on the venture side is being able to use my distribution to help promote them and give favorable rates or packages or anything like that where it would conflict with maximizing revenue on the media front.
So now it's like, hey, I mean, this is all my stuff now, so I can play it however I want and grow it like that. So that's also another thing that's liberating for me. Awesome. All right, let- we'll leave it there.
Really appreciate you taking the time. Um, really- Thanks for having me on... fascinated by what you're gonna build. Okay. Thank you all for listening. We'll be back next week with a new episode.
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