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[on-hold music] This week's episode of the Rebooting show is brought to you by Permutive. The rules of advertising are changing. Consumers are concerned about how their data is being used in advertising.

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Regulators across the globe are closing in, and browsers are blocking third-party data. Publishers and advertisers need to develop responsible marketing practices that protect consumers' data.

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Built on the core principles of privacy, consent, and transparency, Permutive's audience platform empowers publishers and advertisers to responsibly activate audiences without any third-party access to personal data, offering insights, modeling, and activation in cookie-restricted environments.

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The data decisions that are made today will impact your ability to continue to effectively execute digital marketing in the future. Join Permutive in the responsible web. Find out more at permutive.com.

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That's P-E-R-M-U-T-I-V-E. [on-hold music] And I think what we're excited about and exploring are the hybrid opportunities.

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So how do you create the in-person experience as well as the virtual experience in combination so that we can get attendees- Yeah. -and speakers to both? And it's tricky, but we're, we're figuring it out.

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We're testing and learning and, and- Yeah. -ex-experimenting as we go. So you're a believer in hybrid. I can't-- By the way, I can't believe you have a, yet an event in Botswana.

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[on-hold music] Welcome to the Rebooting show. I'm Brian Morrissey.

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This week I'm joined by Jessica Sibley. Jessica is the chief operating officer of Forbes Media. And I wanted to have Jessica on for a few reasons. One, I think Forbes is in a bit of a transition right now.

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If you go through its SPAC, you see that where its business is now is certainly not where it used to be, but also not where it's going in the future.

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You know, I always thought of Forbes as an advertising-first company that added in a lot of the brand licensing and franchises businesses, but it's also now adding in a consumer component.

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So Jessica and I talk about that. Also, I think Forbes is a great example of how publishers can really understand their audiences and utilize their first-party data in order to add more value for advertisers.

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I think this is a little bit of a wonky topic, but in general, with where publishing is going, there's a tremendous opportunity for publishers that have focused audiences and that are able to understand those audiences and therefore target ads better.

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So Jessica and I talk about that, and we also talk about how Forbes is planning on benefiting from the crypto world. Hope you enjoy the episode. Let me know your feedback on it. I'm bmorrissey@gmail.com.

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[on-hold music] Jessica, welcome to the Rebooting show. Thank you for doing this. I appreciate it. Hey, Brian. It's great to see you, and thanks so much- Yes. -for having me.

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Anyone who's watching the video, I'm in, um, my new empty home in New York. So let's talk a little bit about the state of, of the industry. First, like, I wanna get into, like, where we're going into.

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Obviously, this week has caused a lot of jitters [chuckles] in the markets and whatnot. Nobody wants to open up their, like, stock trading app or, God forbid, their crypto app. Keep those closed.

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But first I wanna get into just your role at Forbes because, I mean, not long ago you, you became the COO, yeah? That's correct. Yep. Okay. So you're overseeing-- I mean, you were CRO, but what are you overseeing now?

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Yeah. So, uh, thanks for having me again, and excited about my new role as chief operating officer at Forbes.

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And I'd been, um, chief revenue officer prior to that and had been working on an alignment and an organizational structure that

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puts together all of our revenue businesses, and that led our guiding principle around how do we communicate, collaborate, and align all of our revenue, uh, as a business and as a unit, in addition to all of the other critical businesses, uh, all of the critical leaders that impact revenue.

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So as COO, I oversee product, technology, growth, uh, strategy, business development, M&A, Europe and Asia, and of course, the CRO, the chief sales and marketing officer, uh, continuing to handle all of that as well.

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Yeah.

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So one of the good-- I, I was -- A-as I do most mornings, I was just, like, leafing through the Forbes SPAC filing because I love this 'cause it's like, when private businesses, you start to, like, get to see, like, under the covers, and it's great.

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But it's also good to understand, like, how companies are, are presenting themselves, where they are today and where they're going tomorrow. And I love those charts where it's like today and tomorrow.

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So since people are not seeing the charts on this podcast, talk about where the Forbes business is today and then where you guys see it going tomorrow. Yeah, that's great.

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And I know, you know, you write a lot and talk a lot about building, you know, sustainable modern media businesses, and I'm really excited to talk about that here today.

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And a lot of what we've filed in the proxy outlines that. And, you know, look, we're a hundred and five-year-old trusted brand that stands for something.

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You know, we give people, uh, knowledge, resources, inspiration, and connections that they need.

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And, you know, I talk to a lot of people about what Forbes means, and we hear business, finance, wealth, but the one standout is always, you know, success.

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We're the brand that stands for success and entrepreneurial capitalism. I think what's so exciting today is success has no sort of age restriction.

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It's got no expired date, and, uh, it's a global opportunity for everyone to be an entrepreneur.

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And so when we look at what we've done as a trusted, uh, brand, we have, uh, our media businessRight? So our media business is still core. It's, like, over fifty percent of our overall revenues.

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Uh, traditional media business, including, you know, digital, uh, branded content. We've done a lot with paid social, and obviously we're early days with programmatic.

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We've made the digital transformation in our m-media business to be largely digital versus print. And, uh, that is a growing strong business, you know, for us globally.

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I would say our brand extensions business, which is, you know, in the twenty percent.

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So I'm giving you these percents because our goal is to grow all of these businesses, but to really, uh, change the percents of the different businesses that we have.

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So brand extensions would include our conference business, which I know we wanted to talk about today as well, our insights business, which is research related, everything that we've done with licensing, so our global licenses- licensing businesses, as well as moving into real estate, travel, education, financial services, and then our accolades business.

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So, you know, landing on a Forbes list is meaningful, and it matters, and companies really market that and leverage that.

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And then finally, you know, again, around the alignment, uh, that I spoke to you about in terms of, you know, all of our revenues in one place, our pursuit into growth areas in our consumer business, so looking at recurring revenue, high margin businesses.

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This is, um, where it gets really exciting. We have a conser- content to commerce business that's growing with Forbes Vetted and Forbes Marketplace, and I can talk a little bit about those.

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Obviously, digital subscriptions, newsletters, e-commerce, and some of the exciting things that we're doing with our profiles business. And so this has been, uh...

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It's now about twenty percent of our overall revenue mix. It was twelve percent, and we've got some really exciting growth opportunities. So I think that's what you saw when- Right. -you were looking up our SPAC. Yeah.

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Well, like, the circles change, right? Like you said, like, you wanna grow of the, the three businesses, but it's pretty clear that the consum-- the, the, the biggest growth driver,

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at least from what I saw in there, is gonna be the consumer business. And there was a lot of talk of conversion and things like that.

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And doesn't mean that the media b-business is going away, but it seems like consumer is, is the big growth driver that you guys see. That's exactly right. And for us, you know, it's tapping into, uh, opportunities.

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And again, I think our content to commerce business is really exciting. So we've built Forbes Vetted, which is our shopping business, which again leads with editorial, and we're doing a lot of product reviews.

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And this is a really exciting business. We're hiring a lot on that team. And then Forbes Marketplace, which really started out, uh, as an advisory service business focused on credit cards.

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We've moved into insurance products, uh, products around in the auto space, now even in healthcare, home services, and that is a really exciting business for us that continues to drive, uh, great results.

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[instrumental music] Yeah. But it seems like, I mean, the future, I mean, it's like Forbes is... It's almost like less of a publisher. I mean, publishing is part of the business. Is that fair? That's correct.

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I mean, look, we have our businesses where our financial fundamentals are very strong. We also have our channels, right?

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So we have, uh, incredible franchises that are able to create impact at scale for us, and they can't be replicated.

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So whether that's our, you know, thirty under thirty platform that we've built, the Forbes Four Hundred, which, you know, was the arbiter of sort of wealth creation and preservation, and we've really pivoted to talk about impact and philanthropy.

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And then it's all based on, you know, our proprietary leading tech stack and our ability to be a digital transformed company that continues to innovate and disrupt. So I...

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It's a really exciting time for us, and we have the brand and the business and the permission to enter into these new markets and really diversify our revenue mix. So explain the diversification, right?

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Because I think a lot of times people look, look at subscriptions and advertising as being opposed to each other in some ways, but they obviously work well together. So how do you think about it?

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Because I always have, have thought of Forbes as, like, mostly an advertising-driven business with the brand licensing too.

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Um, I mean, I consider events to be kind of part of that, but it depends on, on how the events are, are executed. But ex-explain, like, where you, you see advertising.

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'Cause, I mean, a lot of the, the filing, and I, I always like those things because, like, you know, that's what, that's how companies are presenting themselves to the investors, so that's how they really truly see themselves, is around conversion and driving people through the funnel.

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So how, how does the role of advertising change for the company? Well, look, we believe in an ad-supported internet, and we believe in our advertising business, which has performed very well.

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You know, we've built Forbes One, our first-party data offering. We've built a very strong lead gen business that we started in the COVID days when companies couldn't meet in person and go to those events.

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So we launched Forbes Demand Engine, which is a recurring revenue subscription business or a pay-as-you-go. It's a leads as a service business.

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Our event business has come back really strong as well, and we continue to operate in a consumer conversion with a lot of our new businesses.

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And I think for us, you know, there's so much conversation around communities.And communities at scale, and Forbes is an incredible example of community and communities that can't be replicated, and it goes beyond advertising.

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So if you think about our thirty under thirty platform, right? We launched the thirty under thirty. It started as a list, right? A list really is a community. And, uh, we launched thirty under thirty over ten years ago,

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and we set out to identify who are the most incredible young game changers that are making or reshaping industries, startups.

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And, you know, let's just remind ourselves of what we were saying about millennials over ten years ago. They were maligned. They were, um, coddled. Some of them are grandparents [laughs] now.

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There must be a millennial grand-grandpa or grandma out there. They were helicoptered, and they were coddled.

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And, you know, over ten years ago, Randall Lane, our chief con-content officer, changed the conversation about millennials, and he, you know, recognized and celebrated their youth as a weapon, right?

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They grew up with digital. They grew up with social. Uh, age was an advantage for, for this community.

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And it-- what started out as a list has become this global phenomenon of individuals that, you know, care about this community.

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They're so proud to be on the list, and being on the list has actually dramatically changed their professional, financial, and per-personal lives. So we hear those stories all the time.

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And so what I mean by that is that's just not advertising, right? So w-when we launched this list, we've expanded it globally. This is now a community. We travel all over the world with this community.

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We're writing about them. We're writing for them. And marketers wanna engage this community. They want them to be the next flyers or buyers or, you know, financial, uh, consumers.

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And they fundamentally wanna figure out ways, uh, to work with us to reach this community. So that's just one example of, you know, what goes beyond advertising. Yeah.

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And it's really bringing this editorial, this audience to marketers to engage and grow their business and new customers themselves. Yeah.

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You know, I was speaking on a panel yesterday, uh, weirdly at a Newark, uh, airport, Hilton, as I do occasionally. And Adam White, who was the first guest, uh, on

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Rebooting show, uh, was, was on the panel, and he was introduced as being a Forbes thirty under thirty person. So it has true resonance out there. But let's talk about, like, advertising. We're going into a recession.

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I, I'm calling it. I don't know what we're gonna do. We're, we're gonna have a recession, right? This is my third.

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I don't know if it's [laughs] what number you are, but I've had, like, three, and I think there's a lot of people who haven't really truly... You know, thankfully, we've gone.

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You know, COVID was a strange blip, but, you know, things came back pretty quickly thanks to government intervention, uh, to a large degree. But, you know, things change in, in a recession.

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Like, I think, you know, everyone is dusting off their, like, contributed pieces for Ad Age about how y-you studies show you shouldn't cut advertising in a recession. [laughs] Okay.

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And then the CFOs are gonna be like, "Okay, sure. Yeah, whatever you say." [laughs] And then they're gonna, like, pull back on advertising, right? Look, we've been through these cycles before.

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[laughs] I hear what you're saying, and again- Maybe I'll contribute the article to Ad Age saying like, "Oh, studies show you should never cut advertising."

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Meanwhile, by the way, a lot of these companies themselves pull back on their marketing. So there's, uh, [laughs] there's just a little bit of double speak there. They do. They do.

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Look, we've been through these cycles before, and again, brands that have a good revenue mix, that have diversification, are the ones that are gonna continue to weather these cycles, and Forbes is one of them, right?

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Yeah. And so I, I would say it's our revenue mix, it's our media mix, it's also our business mix, right?

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So this year, uh, in-person and virtual and hybrid is coming back, you know, globally for us in, you know, huge numbers. The, the market is ready.

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Wherever I go to conferences, whether they're Forbes or, or industry conferences, you know, they say this is the largest audience attendance in history. Not just recently, but in history.

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So again, getting back in- Yeah... in person is... And so those are just certain things that we'll lean into what we can control. You can't control what you c-can't control. Yeah.

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So leaning into that and being flexible with the market, right? It was... COVID was a challenging year.

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We, uh, we met our clients based on, you know, being able to be flexible, work with them on different types of products, and whether it was keep the lights on or driving leads and things like that.

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So, so we'll be innovative. We'll listen closely. I would say the last, at least the opportunity that Forbes has, is the diversification.

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We work with so many marketers in technology and financial services, luxury, broadly defined, whether that's travel, uh, whether that's auto, you know, jewelry, watches, spirits.

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So having a broader diversification in terms of the industry and the companies that you work with will also, you know, serve publishers like Forbes. Yeah.

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So I-- for those who are, you know, running, like, media businesses who are listening to this podcast, and they haven't had as much experience in this, nothing is recession-proof, right?

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But, like, what are more, like, recession-protected? It's like, I don't know if it's formats exactly, but business lines.

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Like, I mean, I always assume, like, the stuff that, that drives conversions is usually most protected.

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I remember m- after the recession, after nine eleven, like, I went to write for DM News, and I quickly realized that, like, direct marketers, they, they don't get phased by any recession. [laughs] It either works or not.

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You still gotta drive business.

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How would you advise people to think about, like, how they work with clients and which products maybe that they, that they emphasize when the economy i-is not doing as well as it has in the last, like, many years?Yeah.

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Look, we run a really disciplined business. I think that's really important.

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We've had a growth mindset, but we're measuring that and focusing on, again, controlling what we control and leaning in and listening to our clients and understanding.

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And we, we kinda lived this throughout twenty-twenty, right?

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So clients didn't really know what to do, how to communicate, where to communicate, and what, what we were able to do was build products quickly, whether it was our virtual platform, our lead gen platform, you know, some of the consumer products, some of the branded content products that we took to market that maybe they weren't these long, year-long integrated programs.

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We allowed for some flexibility, uh, quarter by quarter opportunities, and we played a shorter game versus a longer game.

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And I think taking that approach and listening to our clients and understanding what their goals are and how we can help them achieve their growth, uh, will, will be really, really critical as we- Yeah...

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kind of head into second half. Are you seeing skittishness with clients? Not so far. Okay. Not so far. I hope, [laughs] I hope, I hope that continues. I mean, some of the, some of them are, are gonna...

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I mean, you just see this, the, the market with the crypto stuff, it's, it's kinda crazy. But let's also talk about one of the, the big shifts that's going on in advertising is, is around the application of data, right?

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And I think, you know, Forbes has, has always sort of leaned into its first party data, and I think that that is going to [laughs] pay off. Yeah. No, I'd agree with you.

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I mean, you know, we were ahead of the game, uh, with Forbes One. We had... Before we even launched it and an-announced it more publicly, we had been working on it for at least a year and a half, two years.

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So again, when you look at our business, we work so closely with, uh, our tech team, with our chief technology officer, with our head of business intelligence to really build the segments and the personas, and we continue to innovate and enhance and bring that m-product to market.

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We have the opportunity to work with clients, whether it's, uh, targeting by interest, targeting by demo, or I think where it gets really exciting, and it's a differentiator, is targeting by the Forbes communities, right?

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So we're building these segments in these communities that, again, can't really be replicated.

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Everything that we've done in the women's space or with the under thirty community, tech, interest in tech and our tech audience and our wealth audience and, and that's really a differentiator for us.

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I would say the other part of our journey with everything that we've built with data is making sure that internally, you know, we have the knowledge and the knowledge transfer and the training amongst our sales and marketing teams.

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And so having the understanding, being able to, you know, really work with our clients and have that deep knowledge of data and what it means and how it can work for and with our clients.

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And so we've, we've been on this journey. We'll continue, whether it's lead gen or first party. There's so many ways that we're able to understand our audience and bring them to our marketing partners. Yeah.

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And it's also a way that scale does help, right? I mean, like to... You have to have a certain amount of scale in order to truly be able to collect useful data to be able to apply.

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But do you think that like, in general, like, you j- do you look at the moves with the third-party cookie and, and the things that Apple are doing as

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a net positive or negative or neutral, or is it just one of those, A, control that you can control, adapt? The power's in the people, right? [laughs] And the...

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If, uh, I- we believe in privacy, you know, we will always be compliant, and we wanna use data and information carefully and responsibly. And so we, you know, we believe that. I personally believe that. And I, I...

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We have no issues with some of the changes that have been happening, and we- Okay... you know, I agree with that. Yeah. Because sometimes, like, honestly, like... And look, you know how it is.

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Like, everyone's like talking their own book and stuff like this, and again, everyone has a role to play, but like the sky is falling stuff, like sometimes I'm like, "Yes, there's a lot of people in the long tail who are going to get like, you know, crushed by this."

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Like, it's true, and that's too bad.

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There's just a lot of different kinds of publishers, and I personally wonder whether or not the ones that have the tightest connection to their audiences or their communities, ideally, are going to suffer as much as some of the sort of paid spokespeople for others would claim.

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Yeah, you're right, Brian, and- [laughs]... you know, we'll, uh, we'll see as we go through, you know, the next, you know, the next few weeks- Yeah...

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and months and what all the regulation is and the changes and the big moves that, you know, both Google and Apple make. Yeah. So let's talk about the event side. I mean, 'cause you guys have always...

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I remember one time meeting with someone at Forbes, and I was, like, shocked at the sheer number of events that like, that you guys are able to put on. Like, I thought at Digiday, like we put on a lot of events.

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And then [laughs] like I met someone from Forbes, and they came out with some, like number. I was like, "Oh, my gosh." Like, [laughs] it's like multiple events a day.

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Obviously, during, during COVID, you know, you had a... E-everyone who had an events business had to scramble, right? And I think events are, are back in a big way. I think it's interesting because

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I don't think people, like, worry from a brand perspective about people getting COVID at their events anymore. Like, it just happens, and, like, people just accept it.

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But what are you seeing on the sort of in-person events as we go through another period of uncertainty with more COVID coming back? Yeah.

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Well, we're seeing a lot of interest to attend events, to sponsor events, to speak at events, both in person and virtual.So, you know, we had a very big global events business that we had to hit the pause button on when COVID hit.

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Yeah. And, you know, [scoffs] reflecting, I, I was one of those like, you know, serial optimists, "Oh, just we'll be back in three months.

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Just reschedule- [laughs] -all the events for three months from now, and we'll be fine." Yeah. We'll just delay it. And I think the team like, looked at me like, "What is she talking about? This, this is...

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This-- We're just gonna go three months and then redo the whole exercise three months later." And, you know, looking back, that gave us a sort of a moment to just pause and to make- Yeah...

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some really hard decisions, right? Do we exit this business? Uh, do we try to keep it going in whatever capacity? And, you know, I spoke to our CEO and our CFO and said, "Just give us some time.

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Just give us some time to figure it out." And we quickly organized a task force, and we were able to build a very strong virtual business.

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And I think if we had exited the business, now that we're coming back in person, you know, it would've taken a ton of money- Mm-hmm... and a ton of muscle to kinda rebuild. So we kept-- we didn't lose a person.

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We didn't have any cutbacks. We built an incredible virtual business that I never could've imagined when the task force got together and, and presented the, the ideas and the opportunities.

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And now that we're coming back in person, you know, we've been in Bermuda, Botswana, Abu Dhabi. Uh, we're headed to the West Coast, uh, East Coast.

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We had an event last night at Forbes On 5th with, uh, with about fifty to sixty of the top chief marketing officers in our industry. A hundred people attend that.

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So this is, this business is here to stay, and I think what we're excited about and exploring are the hybrid opportunities.

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So how do you create the in-person experience as well as the virtual experience in combination so that we can get attendees- Yeah... and speakers to both? And it's tricky, but we're, we're figuring it out.

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We're testing and learning and, and ex- Yeah... well, experimenting as we go. So you're a believer in hybrid. I can't-- By the way, I can't believe you have a, yet an event in Botswana.

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But like y- so you're a believer in hybrid because still, it's still an awkward... I don't know. It still seems a little awkward.

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I understand it like, you know, the idea that like you can have people that don't have to go to Botswana, they could go to the Botswana event from, from Brooklyn if they want. But like

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I understand like that, but I-- it's just it's a really different experience and product, at least in, in my experience. Yeah. And no one's really nailed it yet.

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Um, we've got some-- We've made some technology upgrades at our event space, you know, Forbes On 5th, which I just mentioned, where you feel like y- you know...

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Look, if we wanna have someone be part of the conference and we can Zoom them in to the in-person audience, that's great for us, and that's a great way to get access to speakers. I think you're right.

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Attending an in-person event virtually, that's been a little tricky.

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Uh, we are a remote workforce at Forbes, and we just had a company-wide town hall, and we had hundreds of attend virtual and hundreds of attendees in person, and we're still figuring it out.

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We're still trying to make both, uh, the in-person and the virtual experiences, you know, equally on par, but it's not there yet. Yeah.

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And also, I think like one of the, the big benefits of a lot of particularly business events, I mean, it's networking, right? And, and it's still a little... I don't know. Maybe it's me.

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Like, I don't think I'm good at like virtual networking. I don't even know if I'm good at in-person networking, actually, but I know I'm not good [laughs] at in-person or at virtual networking.

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Well, I mean, Brian, it's so-- it's great that you say that 'cause- Are you gonna tell me and be like, "Yeah, it's good. Actually, you said it-" No. No, because- "... 'cause you are terrible in person." [laughs] No.

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When I think about, when I think about you and how, and, and how long I've known you, the thing that comes to mind is the women's dinner that you hosted.

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And I re- [laughs] And I remember being there with you and the people that I met- Nothing awkward about that. [laughs] You know? The relationships- Look... that I still have today.

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So yeah, those things do make a difference, and they matter, and we should do that again. We should have agreed before this podcast. Usually it's the other, you know, the guests like saying, "You can't talk about this.

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You can't talk about that." I should have like said beforehand, "You can't talk about the fact that I, as a man, hosted a women's dinner." I mean, I thought it was amazing. And you- Someone had to. [laughs] Yes.

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And you were the only man, and there were a lot of amazing, powerful women in that room. So- Right... it was great. I'm sweaty. Touché, Jessica. Touché.

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And now I'm gonna get you back by talking about user experience because I, I like Forbes a ton. I really feel like a lot of connection to the brand.

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I once applied for a job early in my career that I did not get from Forbes, but I-- that I did not get.

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But I still remember the interview 'cause it was a really, really hard interview, and it taught me a lesson 'cause I didn't prepare enough going into the interview.

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And I-- They told me to pitch a story for forbes.com, and I pitched it. And I forget who I was interviewing with. He was like, "Yeah, that sounds like a story that might just be in Businessweek or something."

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And he didn't say that a complimentary way. [laughs] But I know that it's hard to serve multiple masters, the advertiser and the, and the user.

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Explain how you figure out like the balance 'cause your guys are a little aggressive sometimes with the monetization. Yeah. Uh, thank you for that.

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And I did work at Businessweek, and I loved being the publisher of Businessweek. And- It's just being-... got bought by Bloomberg, so, uh- I know... so did very well.

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But I, yeah, I, I agree with you, and it is something that we continue to work on and improve.

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And again, as part of our alignment and org structure, working so closely with Nina Gould, our Chief Product Officer, who now- Yeah... is overseeing our programmatic business because all of that goes hand in hand.

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And we, you know, we strive to always have a great user experience. Yeah. And again, how are we gonna build a growth and consumer business if we don't have that? So. Right. So product-- You have product under you.

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So like is it a unified product group?

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'Cause I think, you know, product is one of those areas that like I am personally like sort of obsessed with because it is-Arguably, I would think it's like the most interesting area inside of publishing companies, 'cause too, you have to satisfy so many different needs, and it is really, really difficult.

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So I completely understand that. An ad product is even harder than just editorial product. Like, figuring out an ad product is just extraordinarily difficult. But it's a unified product team, yeah? It is.

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And, you know, it's product and technology. So, you know, Vadim Supitski, our chief technology officer, just work day-to-day, hand-in-hand with our chief product officer.

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So the collaboration there, the communication there has to be so tight. And, you know, Forbes has always been a first and always been, uh, comfortable being a little uncomfortable.

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And what I mean by that is making sure that we have great partnerships and great partners in place, 'cause that's critical for product.

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'Cause a lot of those are, whether it's ad tech or opportunities for us to ha-have new units, have new experiences on our site that are great for our business, but also really meet where we need to be from a user experience.

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Yeah. So in five years, it's a bit of a cheesy question, but in five years when, when we're doing this, this podcast again, following the, the, the rebooting Women's Leaders dinner,

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where, uh-- Like, how will Forbes, do you think, be, be different than it is today?

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'Cause I, I think in just going through it, just again to revisit that SPAC, it's like it's pretty clear that you guys see yourselves transitioning the business, at least it's-- as it's, um, presented there. Yeah.

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I mean, like, our goal is to build the business to be as big as the brand. And you're saying five years, so if we're at a hundred and five, we'll be a hundred and ten.

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I think we've had an incredible journey of transformation, innovation, uh, disruption. We're a very dynamic company. We're a very entrepreneurial-spirited company, so we can move really quickly.

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Uh, I think for us, critical to move into Web3, exactly what that looks like and what that means. There's a lot of work to be done there- Yeah. -and my team's working on that.

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And I, I-- that's gonna be really, really important for us. So wait, let's talk about Web3 for a minute.

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I always do it at the end 'cause there's a certain number of people who will just like hit stop like immediately when they hear Web3. So you guys did-- You, you like NFT'd a cover-- some covers and stuff like this.

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I always feel like that's like the first step. It's like, "Yeah, we have a cover. We'll like, you know, make an NFT out of it, put it on OpenSea and, you know, maybe make some money."

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But what do you see as the opportunity there that's bigger than that? I think it's utility and community. I think we need to figure out the utility part, and we're working on that. Yeah.

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Um, we have the community part, right? So yeah, the cover, we also did a-- the Billionaire's NFT. So again, that's a big community and an important community for us.

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And if we can kind of create those communities around some of our key franchises and channels, um, I think there's that part of it. There's obviously the Forbes Digital Assets part of it. A lot of that.

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Even though we're having challenges in the crypto markets right now, that's definitely here to stay. We've built that editorial platform. We're building that business. We have those audiences.

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Meta, what does the metaverse mean for us in terms of experiential? What's the gamification of these opportunities? I think there's a lot of exploring and a lot of testing- Yeah. -and learning.

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And, you know, with Binance coming into our pipe and being the, you know, s-strategic majority investor, that should- Yeah. -help us a lot. Yeah.

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So for those who don't know, like Binance, it-- What was it, two hundred million? Mm-hmm. They own a big- That's exactly right. They own a big, they own a big part of, of Forbes, yeah. And so

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crypto is definitely part of the future. That's correct. Is that fair? That's correct. Okay. Yeah. And- But it's not gonna be all crypt-crypto all the time. If I would've told you five years ago where we'd be- Yeah.

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[laughs] -to this day, I don't know. I might not be sitting here in my apartment- Exactly. -in my daughter's empty room, so.

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Well, it wouldn't be an empty apartment, because I can remember five or even more than five years ago, I was going to dinner with like a friend's like boyfriend, and I was like trying to think of something.

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He was in IT at a bank, and I was like trying to come up with topics, and I was like, "Oh, Bitcoin." He's like, "Oh, I'm so into it." And I was like, "Uh-huh," you know, wise guy, but whatever.

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Can't win them all, right, Jessica? [laughs] There you go, Ryan. All right. Well, thank you so much for joining us. Okay, great. Thanks for having me. And thank you all for listening.

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We'll be back next week with a new episode. This episode was produced by Jay Sparks from Podhelp Us. If you are in the market for a podcast, I highly recommend you use Podhelp Us. Find out more at podhelp.us.

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That's podhelp.us. I don't feel like I need to spell that.

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