[instrumental music] I actually had some time to think about what will this generation of Ukrainians be like, and I think that it will be the first generation of Ukrainians with no illusions about Russia, about the relations between Ukraine and Russia, because the previous ones, like, I don't know what you would call Gen X and the millennials, we still had a lot of illusions about whether we are friends or whether we are related peoples.
So I, I think that this generation is going to be, like, free of any such illusions.
[instrumental music] Welcome to the Rebooting show. I'm Brian Morrissey. Thanks to everyone who's written in.
I always love to hear from you. My email address is bmorrissey@gmail.com, so feel free to shoot me a note, tell me what you like, what you don't like, who you'd like to be on the show.
You know, I started the Rebooting because I think that there's a group of like-minded people, maybe even a community, that's frustrated with the state of the publishing industry but is also hopeful that it can be made better.
And I think fighting for a sustainable media ecosystem is worthwhile.
But I also fully recognize that a lot of the mechanics that we discuss here, whether it's first-party data or memberships, or even, God forbid, Sub Stack, you know, are a lot different in other contexts, and they're a luxury of, like, living in a market like the United States or, or the UK.
This was really brought home to me when I went to Ukraine in the fall.
I was there to speak at a journalism conference, and while I was there, I participated in this media accelerator and heard from a lot of people who are building media companies there, and their challenges are a lot different.
They're a lot more basic. You know, an independent Ukraine is fairly new, and a free media isn't established there just yet. You know, it's being established.
And the reality of operating in a small economy means that your strategies are very different.
And I was struck by how many independent publishers there still relied on grants to get by from non-governmental organizations or USAID.
The ad market simply isn't that big, and memberships are very hard to pull off in an economy where the reality is people don't make a lot of money. And obviously, Russia's invasion has made all of this more dire.
So debating whether Sub Stack is a good thing or a bad thing, or Glenn Greenwald and stuff ends up being, you know, pretty [chuckles] silly when you see what's happening in places like Bucha.
And at the end of the day, all wars end, and this one will, too, hopefully soon.
So I think it's important that we consider what comes out of this on the other side, because in order for there to be a free and independent Ukraine, it needs a free and independent media system.
And I think that that's a good place for me because that's my interest. That's why I've tried to put some focus on that. So this week, I'm speaking with Andrei Baborkin.
Andrei is the executive director of Ukrainska Pravda, which is a leading Ukrainian news outlet. I met Andrei in Kyiv this fall.
We went to an amazing Irish bar there called O'Brien's that I, I wanna go back to, and I can't wait to go back to.
And Ukrainska Pravda, you can actually now read it in English, so I highly recommend you do that, because I think we like to get, like, a US or UK-centric view of, of what's going on, but I think it's good to hear from, obviously, the people who are living through this, and that's why I wanted to have Andrei on.
So he took the time to speak to me from the western part of Ukraine that he's now living in with his family. He had left Kyiv when the war started.
He'd moved to the south, where he's from, but the war came there, too, so he's now near the Romanian border.
And I wanted to get a firsthand view of this struggle to get to the other side for Ukrainian media, because both through his journey and what Ukrainska Pravda is doing with an evaporated ad market, it's basically gone.
And so right now, independent media in Ukraine is dependent on outside help. Those are foundations and NGOs.
But I think what we're also seeing is we're also seeing individuals stepping up and giving direct donations to these organizations.
Andrei is working with another friend of mine, Eugene Zaslavsky, I'm gonna butcher your last name, Eugene, I apologize, with the Media Development Foundation.
And, you know, they're trying to raise money to support local media. Local, as we know, is, like, the hardest of the hard problems, and in Ukraine it's even harder, obviously.
And the only way that local media is gonna survive there is through outside help. So I'm gonna include links to ways that you can help, both in the Rebooting newsletter, but also in the show description.
Hopefully I can figure that out. Because I do believe that this is a very important topic. So onto my conversation with Andrei. Hope you enjoy it. [instrumental music] Andrei, welcome to the podcast.
Thanks for joining us. Thanks for having me here. So first of all, where are you coming from? Where are you right now? I'm in Chernivtsi. It's a city in the western Ukraine.
It's pretty safe here, so we hear air raid alerts frequently, but nothing actually happens, so it's, it, it's, uh, slowly turning into a, a hub of sorts for
all kinds of professionals like media professionals, cultural, uh, workers and different sorts of people from over the country coming here because it's like a mixture of a safe region and, uh, uh, full-fledged city where you can just live life which is- Mm-hmm...
similar to, to what we lived in, uh, Kyiv- Yeah... Kharkiv, and so on. Yeah.
So I'm, I'm meeting a lot of people that I used to meet and work with in Kyiv or just, uh, who used to be my acquaintances in Kyiv, and, uh, many of them are here.
Some of them are in the nearby regions, but most of the professionals who are working in Ukraine, but not in the areas where the military action is going, they moved west- Yeah...
right now.Uh, so obviously you were in Kyiv when the invasion began. Yeah, yeah. I, I, I was in Kyiv and I, I, I left Kyiv, like, a couple of days after that. Yeah. Was it...
Like, obviously you, you were gonna leave, 'cause I know you went south, right? Yeah. And then you went west.
Yeah, well, I'm from south initially, so my hometown is Mykolayiv, which actually was featured now on, I guess, on all sorts of Western media front pages, which is not something that, uh, I expected. Right.
Yeah, so we were hesitating, uh, when this whole thing started, me, my wife, and, and our kid, because it wasn't obvious that, like, we, we need to leave. But then it quickly became obvious and we went to our hometown.
Sh- my wife is also from Mykolayiv, and we stayed for several days there with our parents, and the situation there deteriorated as well- Mm...
so we had to think of moving somewhere else, and the, the only option was to g- to go to the western part of the country.
And the organization that I, uh, work very closely with, Media Development Foundation, they set up a hub in Chernivtsi, and a lot of my colleagues are working from here as well.
So it was, like, one of the options that was, uh, quite obvious for me. Mm. And, and the situation with the residents' availability was, at the time,
a bit more relaxed here, i- if I could use that term, because in cities like Lviv, for instance, or Uzhhorod, which is like a f- far western part o- of the country, i- it's much harder to find an apartment.
It, it was much harder. Now it's- Yeah... it's also quite hard to find an apartment in Chernivtsi as well because- Right... a lot of people are moving here as well, so. Yeah. But it's crazy in, in Lviv region.
It's much, much harder now. Yeah. And I think we hear a lot, and obviously we see a lot about displaced people and who have moved to neighboring countries, but there's a ton of internally displaced people.
But so you're safe there- Yeah... for now, right? Yeah. So explain to me, to, to everyone who's listening, they, they probably don't know a ton about, like, Ukrainian media, but explain Ukrainska Pravda.
I don't know if I'm pronouncing it correctly, [laughs] so you're gonna have to say it. Yeah, yeah. It's... You're pronouncing it, like, quite professionally. Yeah. Okay. [laughs] Good.
Well, I wa- I was in Ukraine for a week, Andrei, so- Yeah... I could- I could say that from your pronouncing. [laughs] Yeah. Explain to me- Ukrainska- Yeah.
[laughs] I'm like one of those, like, Americans who went abroad for a week to the UK and comes back and is like, "Lift." E- explain Ukrainska Pravda and independent media. I mean, it's a very complicated situation.
Like, I learned a ton about it just in a week, but I only scratched the surface.
But explain exactly what Ukrainska Pravda is and how it fits within the media landscape in, in- Well, Ukrainska Pravda is one of the oldest news websites in Ukraine. It, it's, it was founded in, uh, year 2000.
I think just a couple of digital media that are older than Ukrainska Pravda. And since then it has become like the major news organization, one of the biggest websites in terms of the audience,
in terms of the impact and reach, and it's also has been, like, uh, the closest to what you can call a, a media institution i- i- in Ukraine.
Because the problem with the Ukrainian media is that we, we don't have a lot of organizations that have enough capacity, uh, to be considered institutions, to, to be, to, to have an institutional memory and sustainability because the, the entire media history is just 30 years old, or may- maybe a bit more.
Before that it was Soviet media history. So I, I think that Ukrainska Pravda is, like, one of the very few media institutions in Ukraine, and I'm very proud to, to work there and to be its- Yeah... executive director.
So yeah, so as a media company, I think it's, uh, it has a more or less traditional business model, so we make, uh, most of our money from advertising, like 98% maybe,
and it's been programmatic advertising and, uh, native advertising.
And we also were among the first Ukrainian media who launched reader revenue programs, and we launched, like, a membership offering, which is similar to what The Guardian has.
It, it doesn't have a paywall, but it has a club and some membership bonuses, and we still have it, so we still, we see a, a positive dynamic even now, and but, but it's not, and it, it wasn't, uh, a, a large, uh, part of our revenue before that.
Yeah. So just to get to the mission, Ukrainska Pravda is, like, independent in that I know, like, in a lot of parts of the region, a lot of publications are aligned with political movements.
You could say similarly here, but I think it's more acute in Eastern Europe. Y- yeah. Well, our independent status is, as a term, I guess it's debatable because we are owned by an investment, uh- Mm-hmm...
company which is called Dragon Capital, and it owns a, a couple of other media assets. So technically, I guess we couldn't be called indie media or something like that. Yeah.
But we have a very strict editorial policy, and it was part of the deal with the new owner that the company that owns Ukrainska Pravda adheres to its editorial policy, which guards very strictly the editorial independence of our content and, and the work- Right...
that, that the staff does. So that was... And it was, it's, I, I guess it's, like, a very rare example of this happening in Ukraine.
So we, I- YeahHaven't heard about similar- So ex-ex-explain for people who are not familiar, sort of how the Ukrainian media landscape like existed like before the war.
'Cause it-it's a different, it's a different like economic context, it's a different political context. It's more complicated probably even than the United States, and this is a very complicated place.
But I don't think the people here or even in the UK sort of really appreciate a, a lot of the unique challenges, um, of operating a sustainable news business in a market like Ukraine, even before the war.
Well, I wouldn't say that it's more complicated than the US media market because, uh, obviously the tier one market, which has been there for, I don't know, several hundred years, y- I, I would say that it's much more complicated than the Ukrainian media market, which has been in place for 30 years.
But, um- I meant more, it's more complicated- Yeah... to, to come up with a, a sustainable model. Yeah. You know, in the US we have- Yeah, well... tier one is just, there's, there's more money.
Like, people have more money- Yeah... in general. Yeah, so maybe like we can start with some background. Mm-hmm. So the, after the Soviet Union collapsed, independent media started launching in Ukraine,
and it was like, uh, late, uh, '80s, early '90s, and it was mostly print media, newspapers, a few television channels and, well, all, all the traditional media, what we say legacy media now.
And they were rather successful because before that, the information ecosystem was under the party control and people, uh, were excited to, to get freedom of speech and all these new formats.
The glossy magazines started appearing, the, the independent television channels, the independent news shows, independent journalism,
and I think that for television, it quickly stated itself as a major medium for the audience. Like the, the, it had the biggest audience, I think like anywhere in the world.
So the channels w-were, I think by late '90s, early 2000s, quickly under control of, uh, major business and, uh, political groups. And they stay there [chuckles] right now.
So I think like all the major m- uh, media, all the major television channels are now owned by major business corporate structures, and they by no means are independent and can be called independent. Right.
As for the print media, everything happened, uh, similarly to the, the rest of the world.
So the internet arrived and after, I think 2007, when the financial crisis hit, the print media mostly started fading away in Ukraine and everyone went digital.
I always say that w-the problem with the Ukrainian media, and I think it's like one of the biggest differences with the tier one, uh, media market, is that we didn't have enough time to have a taste of this great era of excess in the print and television media when I, I, I like reading like media history books about the golden age of journalism and Time Magazine and, uh, New Yorker and so on.
Yeah. And obviously we didn't have enough time to taste this because just as, uh, the print media blossomed in, in Ukraine, the internet arrived, and it all died like in, in several years.
So the advertising market is mostly, like the programmatic market is mostly duopoly. I, I guess it's, it's even fair to say that it's mostly Google.
We have a couple of local players, uh, in programmatic th-that, that are also working here, but I don't think they constitute a big portion of publisher revenue.
Around five to eight years ago, the native advertising arrived just as anywhere in the world, and it was also like a thing and everyone started doing it with all the formats very similar to what we see on the major tier one media.
So everything i-in this regard is quite similar. The overall ad market is much, much smaller, so it's much harder for a media manager to, you know- Yeah...
reach profitability in Ukraine in a rational timeframe because although the e-expenses are much lower than you would expect from like a media company in tier one market, still the ad market is quite small.
And, uh, it's even smaller across the local, uh, media landscape, excluding Kyiv.
Because for Ukraine, we have all, all the major businesses are concentrated in the capital, and the local media used to have this access to local advertisers, and it was working pretty well, I guess, until Facebook became like a dominant platform.
Mm. And, uh, the local advertisers started realizing that it's easy for them to launch campaigns on Facebook to reach their local audience, and I, I think that was like a big hit for the local media.
Yeah, so some similarities to what's happened in the US, UK, et cetera, and, and, and Western Europe. But th-there isn't like as much subscription and membership revenue there.
I think that's a big difference in that like a lot of, a lot of publications here, news publications, were able to add i-in subscription revenue to make up for the tough ad market.
But again, a different context there, more immature market, not as much disposable income, I would guess. Yeah. Right? Yeah.
I always say that we are in a very tough, uh, position when we speak about the reader revenue because here, in terms of reader revenue, we are competing with like food expenses or transport bills or utility bills, so it's not like we don't have this.
On one hand, we don't have the culture of people paying for- Yeah... content. It's just a, a very early stage right now.
And on the other hand, the average household income is, is, uh, very low, so we, we have to really compete like with, uh, very basic needs to be covered. Yeah. And, and the COVID actually, uh, showed that.Yeah.
So the war began, I think for most of us who are not you, it's sort of unfathomable to think about all the things you gotta deal with when something like that happens.
'Cause you're dealing with your family and, and moving them and getting them safe and stuff like this, but then you've got a business, and it's a business that is vitally important, particularly during this time.
So explain how Ukrainska Pravda adapted when the war happened. Well, as I said when I gave comments to your newsletter before, we had the ad market, and after the war started, uh, it was very, very rapidly disrupted.
And I, I think that if we speak about programmatic,
we, we've seen, like, seventy to eighty percent drop in, uh, programmatic revenue, and one hundred percent drop or ninety-nine percent drop in native ads, which means, like, ninety-nine percent of our revenue g-got evaporated.
Which is why we quickly started fundraising and speaking to international donor organizations. There was also a, a campaign launched to help major independent Ukrainian media,
and i-it's been a rather successful campaign, so we are planning to receive, like, a portion of, of that money. I, I think that r-right now it's over one million dollars raised by this campaign.
And the international donor organizations, uh, have also been very active and, uh, eager to help us, so we are right now, uh, in talks to get, uh, donor funding, and we already receive, like, some emergency donor funding that helps to cover, uh, like, emergency costs and, uh, operating costs- Yeah...
this month. But you've also been publishing in English too. Ukrainian and Russian or just Ukrainian and English? Yeah. We, we, as most major news websites, we publish in Ukrainian and Russian.
And, uh, yeah, we launched an English version, which wasn't something that we planned for this year.
This was, like, a very quick decision for us, and w-we almost bootstrapped this whole thing because it's still, uh, a major part of English feed is done by volunteers.
So we are right now trying to expand it and expand the team and, and the product itself because it's, right now it, it looks quite basic because we just launched it as- Yeah... quickly as we could. Yeah.
So but- It's okay. I like it. It loads fast. Yeah. That's the good thing. [laughs] Yeah. And also it's, it was received, uh, by the audience beyond our expectations, so it- So it's for international people.
So it's people like me. Yeah. 'Cause there are, like, a few English language resources for people who want a view of the war, like Kyiv Independent, and you guys are publishing in English too.
That leads to a lot of traffic from outside of Ukraine, right? And so you're able to make money off of that traffic, I would assume, through programmatic? Yeah.
But if we talk about traffic to the English version, I would say that- Yeah... it's not critical part of the money we're making right now. So we are working to improve monetization of this part.
But I'd say for the most part, we are monetizing, uh, the traffic which comes from the audience that had to leave Ukraine and move to Poland, Germany, Czech Republic, and Canada and the USA, of course.
So I, I think that, that it's, it's a traffic to the Russian and Ukrainian versions of the website, but it's coming from, from the international audience, which is basically Ukrainians becoming an international audience.
And because of that, because, like, for the, for Google, this means that their new users come into Poland because they don't have, they don't have the activity and engagement history in Poland, for instance, which is why they are still, they are still...
We don't receive as much money for this audience as we could, I think, i-if this was, like, uh, users with a lot of history engagement from Poland or from Czech Republic or from Germany.
If we go back to the English version, for the most part, like, initially it was, in my experience, I think it's, like, for the first time I see a steady, uh, volume of traffic from Reddit to any media project that, that I worked with.
Uh, it was, like, very intense. And we also had went into partnership with Smart News app, which edit our feed, and, uh, we get, uh, quite a lot of, uh, traffic to the English, uh, language version from there.
And we are working to be added to Yahoo! News as well to add our feed there as well. So, uh, we are working right now to expand our offering. How many people are working for Ukrainska Pravda?
Overall, we have, uh, a bit more than one hundred people. If we say about, if you mean staff, like, people who are working on, on the contract with us. And, and also- Right...
we have, I guess, a lot of volunteers, like several dozen volunteers, I guess. Mm-hmm. And so are most of them still in Kyiv or how are you continuing operations, the reporting and everything in the midst of all this?
Most of these people are not in Kyiv, so most of these people are in western parts of the, of Ukraine.
But in terms of reporting, I, I have to stress, like, that we are, uh, a news gathering focused website, so we, we are very focused on producing n-news. So news, like, is, is a major part of our content.
And i-it used to be like that during the entire history of Ukrainska Pravda, so it's very news-oriented media.
And for the most part, yeah, the, the, the editorial team and, uh, people who, uh, before it all startedWere involved into, um, other roles, not news-related roles.
A lot of them switched to writing news and gathering news or acting within the news producing workflows. So they are mostly- Yeah... working remotely from different parts of, uh, Western Ukraine.
And, and we have- Yeah... some number of people abroad. So I guess it's six weeks now. Are you able to, like, plan for... I mean, there's tremendous upheaval, right? And then you need to plan sort of going forward.
Like, how are you thinking about that? Because it'd be great if this is over in a week, and we all hope that and stuff like this, but likely it's not. So how are you thinking about that?
Well, I think that everyone in the Ukrainian media, and maybe across, uh, all the industries in Ukraine, all the business, uh, sectors of Ukraine, I think everyone lives within the three to six months timeframe.
So this is six months, uh, is the farthest that I go i, in my planning right now. And, uh, this is something that we also discuss with the donor organizations as well.
And we are o- of course hoping that, uh, we are going to get back to normal, uh, much sooner.
But I think that if you have the most negative scenario as your basic one, it, it will be easier to welcome the crisis that, that is coming.
Yeah, so it's a three to six months timeframe that we are living within right now.
And it's actually, on one hand, it's harder to plan, but on the other hand, uh, when we talk about the grant support and donor funding, actually it's, it's very natural for this kind of revenue to lie within the three to six months timeframes, and it becomes easier to plan if you get, like, core funding.
Once you get core funding, it's, it becomes easier to know what to expect from the next couple of months. Okay. Though I can say that we already have that covered. Okay.
So you have funding for at least three to six months, yes? No. We have funding for, like, next, uh, one to two months, but we are now in talks to cover a, a larger amount of time.
Yeah, because the ad market is not going to all of a sudden magically come back. You know, I mean, it's, uh, the economy is completely disrupted and, and it, it likely will be for a long time. Yeah.
Yeah, and, uh, like, we have this company here which is similar to Amazon, which is like a Ukrainian version of Amazon called Rozetka, and this company has recently reported that they lost most of their business right now, and they used to be, like, one of the biggest advertiser in programmatic in Ukraine and one of our biggest advertisers.
Mm. So I wouldn't say that I expect, uh, the programmatic- Yeah... market, uh, locally to bounce back anytime soon.
Though, at the same time, we've been talking to different people, both in Ukraine and i- international, and, uh, they say that we, we should expect at least some rollback i- in programmatic because the middle tier advertisers, they, they are getting over, like, the initial shock of the war and- Mm...
they have the unspent marketing budgets a- and not everyone relies on offline business. So they said that they expect at least some positive dynamics- Mm... but it wasn't, uh, the case yet, so we don't see that. Yeah.
So for the time being, it seems like it's critical to have, like, external support, like, whether that's foundations or whether that's individuals, right? Yeah. I, I think that it's, right now it's mostly foundations.
The campaign for Ukrainian media has been rather successful. I don't have- Mm... the inside data, who donated most, whether it's, [laughs] uh, big chunks of money from, like- Yeah...
companies or individual donations, I don't know. But I think that it will be, like, international donors like Internews, USAID or other working in, in the region that, that are going to help here.
And also, I, I'd say that we are lucky to be, like, the big nation level media, and we are in a position that we can rely on- Mm-hmm... the programmatic market and talk to big donors and so on.
But, uh, we, at the same time, we have the local media market, the local news who didn't have a very bright picture even before the war in terms of- Yeah... revenue and sustainability, and now they are, like, devastated.
Their business models are completely disrupted. And together with the Media Development Foundation, we are right now trying to figure out programs that can help them.
And we are actually launching, uh, a big, uh, program, like an local media emergency fund, which we're going to, um, use to help, uh, the local media from the east and from the south of Ukraine, uh, which have been affected by the military action.
Yeah. Okay, so for people outside of Ukraine, 'cause I think anyone who believes in, in sustainable media should be doing what they can.
So how would you recommend for those of us who aren't in Ukraine, how we can help you guys get to the other side? Well, I, I'll drop the link to the website of the, uh, local media emergency fund that we have launched.
Okay. We are right now working with donors as well to jump in with us to help all the smaller, uh, local news in Ukraine.
I, I think that the people from outside, they should at least start paying attention to the local media working in Ukraine because I've recently read a piece by Margaret Sullivan which spoke about the media apocalypse in Ukraine and ways to help, but, uh, failed to mention the problems and, a- any Ukrainian media at all in the piece.
And I, I think that it's important to at least start noticing that apart from international journalists, uh, and international media organizations, uh, covering the, uh, war right now in the region, there are actually, uh, local journalists, local producers working both with international journalists as fixers- Mm-hmm...
and working independently trying to provide information for their communities. Because as I wrote on Twitter as well- Yeah...
what we see right now is that there is, like, a media consumption shift happening because the audience moves from one region to another and, uh, the, uh, editorial teams move as well, and this affects the, the media consumption habits of people.
Like, right now I'm in Chernivtsi and I'm subscribed to several local media in Chernivtsi and I also monitor the local media in my hometown, Mykolaiv, and I also, of course, keep track of the national level media.
So right now this is, like, the picture which is relevant for most of the audience in Ukraine.And it's essential for us to help the local media here and to help them go through this crisis, and that's what, uh, we are very much focused on with the Media Development Foundation.
Yeah. I'll include links to, to that in the newsletter. So the final thing is, just on a personal level, you, you talked about looking three to six months out with the business. You can't look any more than that.
But what about, like, personally? Do you have any idea of when you could go back to Kyiv to, to home? Well, well, it's something that we constantly discuss with friends and family, but
I, I think that it's very early to even think about that right now, and, uh, it's not safe for anyone not working in the military right now to be in Kyiv, I guess.
So we are not thinking about that, and I think that i-i-it wouldn't be rational to think about that, like, in the months or so. My, my family decided to stay, uh, in Ukraine, so w-we decided to...
My wife and, uh- Yeah...
her parents and my parents, they decided that they're staying, that they won't, uh, go abroad although we have relatives in other countries that can welcome everyone, which is why we, we decided that we will stay in Chernivtsi until it's safe to go back to, uh, Mykolayiv and, uh, and Kyiv.
So that's the plan [chuckles] right now, and I am thinking in this three to six months intervals right now.
My biggest concern is that, uh, my kid is six years old, and there was a plan for him to go to school this year in September.
And, uh, my, my biggest concern right now is whether he will go to school in Chernivtsi or he will go to school in Kyiv because it's like you have to register the kid to go to school.
So I, I think that's the biggest not work-related concern that I have right now. Yeah. It's a big one. Does he have any idea what's going on?
Well, I, I think that, like, this generation of kids, they all have this understanding, uh, of what's going on, and they are coping very bravely with that, and we are talking about that obviously.
And I think that I, I actually had some time to think about what will this generation of Ukrainians be like, and I think that it will be the first generation of Ukrainians with no illusions about Russia, about the relations between Ukraine and Russia.
Because the previous ones, like, I dunno, what you would call Gen X and the Millennials, we still had a lot of illusions about whether we are friends or whether we are related peoples.
So I, I think that this generation is going to be, like, free of any such illusions. All right, Andriy. Well, thank you so much for taking the time. I'm gonna include the links in here 'cause I...
again, I think everyone should do what they can because if you believe in sustainable media, this is where the hardest tasks are right now. So thank you so much, Andriy. Yeah. Thank you for having me.
I've been a big fan of your podcasts before and on Digiday as well, and it's- Yeah. Thank you... like a great honor for me to participate, so thanks a lot- Yeah... for all you do. Yeah.
We gotta get back to O'Brien's Pub. Is it O'Brien's in Kyiv? Yeah. It's O'Brien's. Yeah. All right. [laughs] Yeah. Hopefully soon, Andriy. Thank you so much. Yes. Thank you. Thank you. And thank you all for listening.
We'll be back next week with a new episode. And again, I'll drop some links to ways that you can pitch in. [outro music]