[upbeat music] Welcome to the Rebooting show, a weekly discussion with people building sustainable media businesses.
I'm Brian Morrissey, founder of the Rebooting, and for twenty years I've been a journalist covering the media business. At the same time, I've been living the ups and downs of this business.
My first job in journalism lasted all of a year before the magazine I wrote for went out of business.
What became clear to me over the years is the business models in media companies were often geared to the short term and not the long term.
For a decade, I was the president and editor-in-chief at Digiday Media, a vertical media company.
And in my time there, we went from a WeWork with a handful of people to seventy-five people in offices in London and Tokyo, and a multi-million dollar membership business too.
That's given me an appreciation of how hard the media business can be, and also how much the details and execution matter. Vision without execution is delusion in my view.
So this show is gonna focus on those details and the execution with those who are running media businesses. [upbeat music] Welcome back to episode two of the Rebooting show.
I'm Brian Morrissey, your host. One quick note. I'm working with my producer, Jay Ray Sparks, on getting the podcast up on more platforms. We are now up on Apple Podcasts and Spotify, but there's more to come.
Um, the same goes for the audio quality. There was some roughness in episode one, and there's some more in this episode, but we're working out the kinks and, uh, promise you we'll improve very quickly.
Uh, this episode features a conversation I had with Julia Naran Johnston, the founder and president of The Business of Home.
One of the things about the media business that, um, is always useful to remember is how much of a long game it is, and that's why I'm reflexively suspicious of supposed overnight success cases in the media business, because usually it's someone who's had, uh, skyrocketing growth based off of growth hacks that end up petering out.
Um, The Business of Home is totally different. It was founded in two thousand nine, and Julia has been painstakingly building it since then.
We spoke about her transition from being a journalist to being the head of a business, mistakes made along the way, and we got into the details of Business of Home's business model, um, and what makes it sustainable.
Big thanks to our presenting sponsor, Silver Blade Partners. I'm gonna tell you a little bit more about them later on in the show. Um, hope you enjoy this conversation. Always welcome, uh, your feedback.
I am bmorrissey@gmail.com, so please feel free to email me with your thoughts and complaints and everything else. Now onto the conversation. [upbeat music] Julia, welcome to the Rebooting show.
This is, this is episode two, I believe, that we will end up, uh, uh, publishing this as. Exciting. I'm, I'm really happy to be one of your early guests. Yeah. So I wanted to talk...
I mean, I love the, the, uh, Business of Home business, you know, 'cause, uh, when I was at Digiday, you know, there's, there's a lot of similarities to finding areas, uh, particularly business areas that are undergoing a lot of change, and then putting yourself at the center of that.
So explain to me how you... We always like to start with the origin story, and I always like, you know, to ask people to be, you know, mostly honest and truthful about the origin stories.
And you promised, you promised earlier that you were gonna be honest about it.
[laughs] But you were, you were actually a journalist, which I'm, I'm particularly interested in because, um, people moving from, you know, journalist to entrepreneur, it's, it's more common now, but it was, uh, pretty, uh, uncommon.
So explain, 'cause you were at like Hearst and Conde, and you've been in the shelter magazine space. What did you see that led to you wanting to create The Business of Home? So I started... Y- you're right.
I started as a journalist, and I don't think I ever would've imagined, you know, becoming a business person, but it was, you know, it's been a fun evolution.
I started out at Architectural Digest as an editorial assistant, and that's really how I got into the home and shelter category, and kind of fell in love with it.
And, and to be honest, you know, having Architectural Digest on my resume opened up a lot of doors for me and, you know, it was easy to continue in this kind of home industry, which wasn't really an industry at that point, but, but it was sort of easy for me to parlay that job into the next one, which was Veranda Magazine, which was a new acquisition by Hearst.
I think they acquired it in two thousand two. I went there in two thousand three.
They had a spot in the marketing department, which, you know, I had not done marketing before, but they liked that I had that home experience and that I knew how to write and, you know, had a visual sensibility, so they felt like marketing would be an easy transition.
So the goal at that time of, of Veranda was, you know, it was a Southern magazine, privately held.
Uh, Kathy Black, the head of Hearst at the time, really wanted it because it reached this highly affluent, you know, female consumer that they, you know...
I think that was an area that they didn't really cover at Hearst, so she was heavily courting the founder, Lisa Newsome, and finally got her to agree to sell it.
So when they took it over, the goal was to make it, you know, not just a Southern magazine, but a national magazine.
So that was kind of the mandate, and we were a very small team, marketing and sales, and one editor was in New York, and the rest of the team was in Atlanta. And, and when was...
This was in the like sort of- Two thousand three... mid-two thousands. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Two thousand three to, to '9, I guess, was the full, the full window, but I started- Okay... in two thousand three.
So the- So things were ch- Yeah... things were choppy, but not like existentially bad in the magazine space. Oh, no. It was, it was pretty good. I would say it's, it was a good ti- Yeah...
I mean, it, it had started, you know... Yeah. It, it had started to come down a little bit. You know, we weren't getting Cartier watches for Christmas presents, but it was- Oh, bummer...
still, we had nice expense accounts and, you know, they weren't crunching too hard on us. And it was really operating like a little...
I think at that time, Hearst, each magazine was kind of its own littlefiefdom and we c- we didn't have a ton of oversight. We could kind of do what we thought was good for the brand.
And the first big project I worked on was a show house with Donald Trump at Trump Park Avenue, and we invited a lot of New York society, and that was kind of the big coming out for, for the magazine and, and it was really exciting.
I was able to grow the marketing team and really make Veranda more of a national title than it is today.
But what I saw when I was on the marketing side was, you know, we were getting RFPs, and we were writing proposals for advertisers, and the main thing that the endemic, you know, the home furnishings brands in particular, and even the jewelry and the luxury brands, they wanted to reach designers, interior designers, because partly becau- for the endemics, the designers wanted to, you know, they were the volume buyers of the product.
In some cases, they were a hundred percent of the buying base. And for the luxury, you know, watch and jewelry, they had influence over their wealthy clients on what they would buy, or they were just wealthy themselves.
So I, I, I saw, you know, more than anything, it was really for the home brands, designers represented such a, a powerful buying base, so I started to realize what a premium audience that was.
And at Veranda, we weren't, um, isolating that part of the audience. We were sort of selling this affluent consumer, and yes, we also have designers, but at the same time, you know, I was hanging out with designers.
There were tons of events every night with designers. It was a real community that existed, and there wasn't really a place, a publication, a platform serving that community at all.
So I saw the opportunity, the need for the community to have a hub, and then I also saw a way to kind of monetize that from an advertising- Yeah... perspective. Yeah. That's what I find interesting- Mm-hmm...
is that, I mean, you s- your background was kind of on consumer, but, like, this is a... I mean, there's a obviously a big consumer element to this, but that's essentially like a B2B model, right? Yeah.
I mean, like, you can -- we all decorate our own homes and stuff like this, but like- Mm-hmm... like you said, like, reaching, connecting interior designers to the people who are suppliers is, it's an- Mm-hmm...
essential B2B function, right? Yeah, definitely.
And, and they really were just, you know, previously advertising with, with the shelter magazines, knowing that designers were reading those too, but it wasn't really for designers.
So, um, so it really was a nice niche and, and continues to be. But did you see... Like, how about the magazine's role? I love magazines. I know you guys have a magazine. It's, it's lovely looking.
I saw, like, you know, the, there was, like, a, a, a, a struggle to actually change, right?
Because, like, the audiences were mo- were being reached through digital channels, but because of a lot of history and a lot of just operational needs, the, the focus internally was always around the print product. Yeah.
And until 2009, that's all, that's all it was. I mean, we were not- Yeah... monetizing digital at all. It was... There was barely a website. I think we were managing the website from the marketing side.
There was-- We weren't even looking at traffic numbers. Right. It, it was basically nonexist- non-existent, so it was only- Yeah, it was like a brochure for the magazine to get subscriptions. Yeah. Yeah. So, yeah.
It was only print and then, you know, events. People really wanted events. Mm-hmm. And they would have to buy print to get the event. So that was the business. But the revenue was just print. Yeah.
So how did that- Mm-hmm... inform when you were deciding to build a business of home?
So at that time, you know, 2009, um, the recession, magazines were closing, but this glorious kind of awakening in digital was happening, so b- everyone was opening up a blog.
There were a couple of big magazines, uh, digital magazines that, in the shelter world, that emerged. Lonny was one, and Rue, and there were a couple of others.
Matchbook bloggers were then kind of pivoting into these issue.com magazines.
So there was a lot of exciting things happening in the digital world, so I think starting a digital company was like, "Oh yeah, that makes sense," and that's really what the future is.
So it didn't feel like this crazy idea.
I think starting something in print would've felt crazy at the time because it was clear, you know, the direction that print was going, especially in that recession, when every day there was news about another big, iconic magazine folding.
So I knew it was gonna be a digital property, and to be honest, the original idea was news and jobs and a community hub for designers, but the revenue wasn't advertising originally.
It was kind of this database that would connect content, designers who had projects photographed, and, and product makers could kind of submit their, their photos of their projects and products to this database, and then we would connect those with bloggers and online digital editors, as well as print editors.
But that was kind of the original business that we kind of raised money on. So because it was before Instagram and Pinterest, so there was really no other- Yeah... where to, way to digitally share your content.
So, you know, it made a lot of sense on paper, but then as we kind of got more into publishing news and becoming more of a media publisher, that piece of it became a little muddled and confused because that was sort of a PR thing.
People were paying us to submit their projects and products to editors, and then they were like, "Well, you know, why did hgtv.com pick this up? But I really wanted Elle Decor to publish it."
And then we w- you know, they were expecting us to kinda negotiate that for them, and it was intended to be automated.
So then we felt it just put us in a weird place, you know, as this kind of PR function, and it also, the PR people weren't loving us.
[laughs] They felt like we were trying to displace them, and some of the maga- the, the established print magazines hated it also because they didn't want Lonny- You made a lot of enemies.
I think you were probably onto something, to be honest with you. When you're-- [laughs] When the PR people are super pissed, that's a sign. Yeah. But, but like- What are the, what are those like memes? Yeah.
The red flag, red flag, red flag. Right, right, right. [laughs] That's like a red flag. I'd be like, "Oh, that's like you're onto something." Yeah.
I guess we got- 'Cause there's what, 10 times more PR people than there are, like, actual, like, reporters, journalists- Yeah... or content creators, so. Probably today that's true. Yeah. Yeah.
So the established brands didn't want these new blogs having access to the same content that they had, so it w- it did feel pretty disruptive. Yeah.
But at the same time, like, it wasn'tUh, we just had to kind of make the call which direction are we going. Are we gonna become a media company or are we gonna continue with this platform?
At the same time, Instagram, Pinterest, and all the social platforms were becoming, you know, heavily used and, and we decided to kinda ditch that database concept and just go the traditional digital media route.
So when did you, when did you ditch the database concept? Yeah. So I launched... It was, it was... So the business was actually called Editor at Large, um, originally in 2009. Yeah. Probably ditched it around 2011. Yeah.
Mm-hmm. Probably two years in. How hard was that? Because, you know, I've seen this before- Mm...
'cause a lot of times when you're, um, you know, if you're thinking about a business, you're always trying to think, "Well, how can I, you know, do it differently?" Mm-hmm.
And, you know, I think people come up with hypotheses and, like, you know, the important thing is, like, you have to have conviction, but at the same time you have to have the courage to change if the results are different.
Yeah. Like, 'cause otherwise you're just gonna drive yourself into a, a ditch. Talk about that, 'cause it's hard. I mean, you're- Yeah... this is your f- first time founder.
You sort of, you know, I'm sure, uh, you know, many people doing anything new, you're, y- everyone is like, "Jesus Christ, do I know what I'm doing here?" [laughs] Yeah. No, it's terrifying. But, like- Yeah...
talk to me about, talk to me about, like, the decision just to be like, "You know what? We had this idea, this hypothesis, and I really believed in it, and, like, I went out and, like, I raised money, like, on it- Mm...
and I, I hired a bunch of people and I said, 'This is what we're gonna do,' and then, like- Mm... uh, we're gonna do something different." Right. Yeah. I mean, it was tricky.
I think it was a little, uh, it was a little more organic, so we were definitely promoting it and that's what people knew us for. And, and people had very mixed feelings about it.
So I think people really liked the news part. They liked being mentioned. You know, we were doing these videos. Yeah.
Our main revenue at the time was, um, was video, so we would send a crew, like a man on the street, well, woman on the street interviewer to a party and interview all the designers, who happened to be hilarious, colorful people, and we would share those videos on the site as part of our coverage, and people just loved that part.
So that was, like, enormous goodwill that kind of offset the, what are you doing disrupting in the industry with this common database.
So I think we started to gain more acceptance within the industry with our news coverage and our events calendar and jobs and the videos, and then the database was still kind of living there on its own, but we just started slowly moving away from it, especially as we saw this other opportunity for revenue which was video.
We were actually generating quite a bit of revenue from the video and from ads. So we just started to focus on that more, 'cause it felt like that's- Yeah... where, what people wanted.
That's where the demand naturally was, and it's much easier to kind of meet demand than push something that people are resistant to. [laughs] Yeah. And so, uh, yeah. I think that's such an important thing. Mm.
Like, that a lot of people, you know, sort of particularly when they're starting out, um, you know, sort of miss, is that if you listen, like, the market will tell you what they like, what they don't like, what they want more of- Yeah...
and what they just don't want any of. Yeah. And you just have to be able to listen, you know? Yeah. And then meet them. And also, you feel it. Like, do I really believe in this thing that I originally thought- Yeah...
was so great? And if your inner self is saying, "I don't know," like, "I don't know if I really believe in that," then it's time to cut it. Yeah.
And we had enough else going on, and then it would just make us totally clean and loved across the board. Like, th- there wouldn't be- Yeah... this weird thing that people are like, oh, that... You know?
[laughs] So why did... So, so video was the first product that you were like... I hate the, like, product market fit. Yeah. But it's like, it was the first product you sort of, that you were like, "Okay, we can do this.
We can do this really well. It has impact, and, like, there's business," and that's, that's great. That's, I think that's product market fit. Explain why, like, why do you think- Mm... that the video product resonated.
So the design industry, I think, is unique because there are so many events. There are a lot of beautiful showrooms and, and spaces that brands want to host designers in. It's a very event-driven industry.
So sometimes there were, like, half a dozen events in one night, and people would hop from event to event. And so we sent a crew. It was like a Patrick McMullan photographer type of thing, you know.
If we sent a crew there, they were like, "Oh, the Editor at Large film crew is there," and we had these kind of big name hosts. Sophie Donaldson was one of our longtime hosts. Tori Mellot.
So Sophie became the editor-in-chief of House Beautiful. Tori Mellot was also, like, a big editor, and now is at a brand.
And we had a, you know, handful of these hosts that people loved that were very dynamic, and we'd kind of go around with this handheld mic and just interview people at the party about a topic.
And it was really fun for people to see us at an event and, and anyone who was hosting event had to have us at their event to kind of make it- Yeah... a really great e- event. And then we could turn it around.
It was a very low lift. It was very inexpensive for us to, to do, and people just loved seeing it. So it, for, yeah, I don't know, the first five or so years...
I mean, up until, really, the pandemic, ev- video was a pretty big piece of our business. Yeah. We had a full-time, you know, full-time people dedicated to video. But what was the business model, though? How, how...
Was it, like- It, yeah... an underwriting model? It was sponsored. Yeah, we called it sponsored. So we, we would give them, you know, a half-day shoot.
We would interview up to eight people, B-roll, edit it, and they would get their, you know, the brand who paid for it would, would have their logo at the end. They would also get an interview.
They would get to have, you know, a person interviewed- Yeah... as part of it. So they didn't really control the message. We would come up with, like, here- Sure...
here's what we wanna talk to people about and here's how it re... You know, and it would usually relate.
Usually it's set in the brand's own showroom or store, so they would benefit because that would be mentioned and they'd be seen- Yeah... you know, in the background throughout.
But I think the great part about that is, like, you defray so many costs, right? Like, th- someone else is already getting all the people in a location. They're, like, paying- Mm-hmm... for the drinks.
They're paying for, like, the space and everything like this, and, like, you're able to utilize someone else's spending on infrastructure to some degree. Right. Right. Yeah.
And, and, you know, and it was really fun for people to... You know, it was great content for us too.
We would ask fun questions or meaty questions and, you know, it was almo- it was like a real news crew kind of going on, on scene [laughs] getting, getting- Yeah... the story.
So talk to me about the evolution of the business model- Mm-hmm... and, and where it is now. We always like to talk about numbers here. Mm-hmm. I warned you ahead of time I'd be asking about numbers. Yeah.
I can give you percentages for sure. Um. [laughs] percentages. Let's not even discuss.I'm gonna have to add a disclaimer to the start of this. Yeah. No, no. [laughs] Nobody shares numbers. Come on. So now- I do.
I did my post. I'm st- I'm trying to do a new thing. Haven't you seen this building in public thing? Like, everyone's like, it's all like, you know, transparency. It's like- Is it? I don't know. Yeah.
We only see that with publicly traded companies. We can't get any private brands to share numbers with us. Our... It's pretty, it's pretty much a, it's a, a split into thirds.
A, a third today is digital advertising, which is display ads, sponsored content- Yeah... dedicated emails. And a third is our Future of Home conference sponsorships and tickets.
And then, well, I guess 30% would be the digital, uh, advertising, 25% would be the conference, another 25% would be what we call utilities, so that's our job board.
It's user-generated revenue, so kind of passive income. So job board, events calendar. We now have a classifieds, which is like, you know, looking for a business partner or space to rent.
We have a new experts directory, which is skilled tra- skilled trades and business professionals, kind of a directory of, of pros. And then memberships also fall into that bucket, so that would be, like, another 25%.
And then 10% is print, our print products, which is our quarterly magazine, and we print two- Yeah... designer guides to, uh, you know, the main industry trade show each, that happens twice a year. Yeah.
So- But you break that out from the memberships? I mean, it's part of the memberships too. The print, so the pr- I do break it out because it's advertising and subscriptions to just print. Oh, okay.
Our memberships do include print, but there are people who only subscribe to print who are not members. So our members get print, but yeah, it's, we, we give them the option. And, and how many people
is the company right now? Uh, employees? Yeah. Full-time employees, uh, we're about 12, and then we have- Okay... a lot of permalancers, which puts us up to around 20, I would say. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Good.
So where, what is the mix do you think that... Like, how do you think that mix is going to change in the next, say, three to five years? The revenue mix? Yeah. Yeah. I think more, I think more in digital advertising.
I think that's where, um, the most growth is because we've, you know, we're investing in more sales team, which we had, had not before. Now we have- Mm-hmm... two [laughs] salespeople instead of one.
And honestly, for a long time we didn't really have dedicated salespeople. We relied on, you know, our jobs board has always been, you know, pretty robust and, and mar- we had marketing people- Yeah...
who would kind of sell. And a lot of our advertising is inbound. People know about us- Right... and they hear about us, and then we kind of give them the rates.
So we're not- But for it to really grow, you gotta have people out there. Exactly, yeah. And we've seen- I remember- Yeah... early on I was, like, told this thing that has always stuck with me that, like,
except for Google, all advertising is sold, not bought. Yeah. [laughs] You know what I mean? Yeah. Like, the inbound is great, but, like, you gotta have...
Uh, and to grow an ad business, you have to have people out there selling, and that's why, um, salespeople are so important. Yeah, definitely. That is a big learning curve for me 'cause I was never doing that. Yeah.
And, and all of our salespeople, well, our original salespeople were not salespeople before, so we're, we're kind of learning it. But the best advice- Yeah...
our, our marketing person, who became kind of salesperson, said was just get people to like you and wanna be your friend and get them to trust you, and then- Yeah... it's, that's it.
Actually deliver is a good- Yeah, of course. Of course. [laughs] Give them a good experience. Um, but yeah. Yeah. Otherwise- I think, yeah, that is true... you, you see that sometimes.
But I think that is, like, it's gonna be- Mm-hmm... an interesting experience, I think, like, building up that, that sales team. 'Cause it's hard to get right, I think.
It's just there's a lot that goes into sales that... Yeah, 'cause you have to service the clients too, and a lot of people who are really good at, you know, getting...
It, it's a real skill to get people to understand a product and to want the product and then, you know, be able to sell it and stuff. But then the delivery, a lot of times salespeople are not, like, you know...
They're very singularly focused.
And that's good because they have to be focused on selling and, like, hitting their numbers and stuff like this, whereas delivery can sometimes slip if you don't have the right organization to support the salespeople.
Yeah. And then, and then also entering new categories.
Like, we, the, the newer salesperson that we hired came from WWD, and she had focused on financial services and software, which was, you know, we had never really focused on that. We've only focused on endemics- Yeah...
um, which was pretty simple for us. They're all similar in terms of what they're looking for, and h- we know what they want, and we basically know what to expect with some variation.
But the financial services are, are quite different with what they're expecting, and she's been able to help us navigate that. Mm-hmm.
But, oh, it is very, it is, uh, you know, some of them are extremely, extremely demanding. And, you know, we've had to implement tech that we never would've imagined. You know, getting an entire,
like, spreadsheet of links when we, you know, we had one tracking link capability, and now we're- Yeah...
building out all this infrastructure for this one advertiser, you know, hoping that m- maybe this is what, this will help us as we get more into these categories.
But I think, yeah, I think that's another growing pain is, as your audience grows and you grow into different categories of advertisers, you're learning those industries and what they expect and how they need to be handled differently.
And also budgeting time. I mean, we were getting an email an hour from one advertiser, and sh- she couldn't do anything else because this [laughs] one was so demanding, so. Exactly.
So I think, yeah, that's another part of the learnings is, is as you enter these new industries and new categories- Yeah... how to navigate that. I mean, obviously we're coming out of the pandemic. I was...
Actually, thank you for the invite to, to, to the Future of Home. Thought it was a great event. Yeah, thanks. I was...
But explain how events, uh, because, you know, events have always been a powerhouse in, you know, B2B media business models. A lot of B2B people are after leads.
I don't know if it's different in, in your space, but- Mm-hmm... you're connecting people.
You're connecting a buy side and a sell side, and I think what I like about, you know, Business of Home is that you have a clearly defined buy and a sell side. A lot of people- Mm-hmm...
who are building new industry niche publications, there's no clearly defined buy and a sell side. And you can do that, but it's just a, it's a more difficult business model to get right. Right. Yeah.
Events, people are definitely looking for leads. To answer your question, a lot of consumer brands will come to us- Mm-hmm... 'cause they're looking to build their trade program. The smaller trade brands, that's easy.
You know, they know designers are reading us. That's their audience. So that's- Yeah... pretty straightforward.
But with events, I think it enables us to go to bigger advertisers, because if we add everything that we have on our site together- Yeah... it only amounts to so much.
So if we wanted to go to, you know, our first, uh, the first year we did our conference, Google Nest was a sponsor.
And I don't think they would've given us the time of day if we were like, you know, "Do you wanna buy digital ads on Business of Home?"
But-To spon-- to be the title sponsor of the Future of Home Conference with five hundred and fifty people, and they're interested in this market, that catches their attention. And I think a lot of the bigger- Yeah...
brands just don't wanna bother with... And there's a lot of work on their side to track and follow up with, with ad performance.
So I think it does open up a new category of, of new business for us that then we can keep, keep the relationship with. And- Yeah, 'cause these are big. I mean, if you get in good with Google- Yeah...
you know, they're big. Yeah. They're big. Definitely. They don't, they don't pay on time, but they're, they're big.
[laughs] This actually is-- The sponsor for this is Silverblade, and they solve this, um, this issue because people don't pay on time in this industry. Ah.
I mean, they may say they're gonna pay in 30 days, but they end up paying in 90 days. Right. So how is technology as a emerging category?
Because I think it's interesting, I've always thought technology is not like a, a, a vertical, it's a horizontal. It goes across all- Mm-hmm... industries.
And, like, it would seem to be like, you know, the purchasing decisions that are being made by interior designers increasingly are also technology.
They're, they're making technology buying decisions to some degree, right? Yeah, they are.
Um, there are a number of design management software offerings out there, maybe, you know, half a dozen that people use, and that's the primary one that's unique to the design industry.
Of course, there's Asana, and Monday, and QuickBooks, and those types of things that they're all using for just running a business. But- Mm-hmm...
in terms of specifying product, creating mood boards, sharing those mood boards and price lists and things with clients, like, those are pretty specific.
And, and a number of companies have built software packages for designers to kind of satisfy the, that part of the business.
And still, you know, the early ones that are probably the worst tech are the ones that are the most entrenched because designers are just used to it, and it took so long for them to get everything.
It would be r-really difficult for them to extract all of their history and their operations out of those platforms. So even though they're not that great, they're kind of stuck with them.
And then the newer ones- There's a lot of those people in the media industry. [laughs] Yeah. Oh, really? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, it's, it's a huge advantage. I mean, Nielsen exists because it's always existed.
Nobody likes it and like- Yeah... but everybody uses it. Yeah. So the, the newer ones are a little lighter. They're not servicing the deeper needs.
Maybe some young designers who are coming out and see them advertised will give it a try, but the more established firms aren't gonna convert. Got it. Yeah. So I wanna talk about the macro trends- Mm-hmm...
um, in interior design. Mm-hmm. I mean, m-my background says that I'm not, like, completely up on the inter-- latest in interior design trends.
[laughs] But I poke around a little bit, and I'm interested in, like, obviously, um, this is called the Rebooting 'cause I do believe that, like, the way we live and work and, and think about things is, is gonna be rebooted to some degree across all aspects of society- Mm-hmm...
because of the pandemic- Yeah... which we've had and continue to have. Obviously, we've spent a lot more time in our homes. So that has had to be pretty good for the business.
The more time you spend in your home, the more you're like, "Hmm, I, I should really do some stuff." Yeah. That's definitely true. And, you know, all of our, all of our advertisers are, are doing very well.
Most design firms' business is up, you know, 50 or more percent. So yeah, every-- I mean, uh, you're right. Every person has, has improved their home- Yeah...
or purchased something for their home, you know, in the past 18 months. But that tracks with the, the overall real es- residential real estate industry, right? It does.
We follow directly residential real estate trends, uh, you know, when residents- Okay. It's kinda like advertising over time has always sort of been married with, with just general GDP growth. When- Mm-hmm...
GDP goes up, advertising goes up. Yeah. Interesting. Um, but is, uh, is that a similar- It is... I would guess, trend? Yeah, it is. So this is a good time then because- It is [laughs]...
like, so many people are pouring a lot of money into real estate right now. Exactly. Yeah. Yep.
That, and, you know, people haven't been spending money, so the money that they have that would've gone to travel or beauty or fashion or events or dinners, you know, are, are going into the home. Yeah.
Now, the downside is I've heard we have these supply chain issues. [laughs] Yeah. I keep seeing, keep seeing photos of, like, a thousand ships off of Long Beach, California. Yeah.
And I'm like, "I don't know how many ships were normally there. It doesn't look good." Yeah.
I was just at-- I was just visiting my parents in a retirement community, and my mother offered me this, like, recliner they have there, which I'm like, "Why are we-- [laughs] why am I getting hand, hand-me-down furniture in my 40s?"
[laughs] But she said, "Oh, we have a new one coming. It's, it's like we ordered it from, like, Denmark, and it, it'll be here maybe in six months." [laughs] Yeah. And that's not bad.
I mean, that is definitely- It's not bad... a reasonable lead time. I mean- [laughs]... yeah, for the trade, it's-- there have always been longer lead times.
You know, when you're custom making something, you can expect 10 to 16 weeks, but consumers are not used to that, for sure. So even Crate & Barrel, CB2, you know, these retail brands are having enormously...
And, and some of them are telling you what's in stock.
So a new strategy for marketing and also for platforms that are reselling furniture is we ha-- you know, here's our in-stock stuff, and then here's the other, everything else.
But 1stDibs, and Chairish, and Facebook Marketplace, and antiques, you know, those are really up because yeah, and that-- and they're marketing that because we have it.
It exists, and it'll just take a few days to get it over to you. Yeah. So yeah, our- But has that, ha-has that affected negatively, affected your business at all? Because- Not at all... like, if people don't...
It hasn't at all? No. And it's interesting because we have brands that are advertising that we know from designers that they're not delivering anything until the end of 2022.
And so we're thinking, "Are you sure you wanna advertise?" You know, we're happy to take it, but it's a little puzzling because I think they wanna- Don't ask too many questions, Julia. [laughs] Exactly.
No, I mean, I think a lot of our brands have it under control and, and are manufacturing locally, and it is a, is a pl- advantage.
But I think even if they have supply chain issues, they're continuing to book and take orders and try to be as transparent as they can about what's going on, and I think that's the thing.
Like, most consumers now know that there are supply chain issues, and who w-would even think about that before? So I think it's, you know, it's very much o- in the consumer's eye pace.
It's on the cover of The New York Times. Our top three stories this year, which has never happened before, have been lead times, shipping crisis, and lumber prices, which we are not-- that is not what we're about.
[laughs] But that, that's affecting the business in such a major way- Yeah. Yeah... that everyone cares about it. Well, you can't ignore itI mean, look, lumber is up quite a bit. Yeah.
I don't, I haven't tracked it as closely as you, but, like- Yeah... it costs a lot of money to get wood these days, right? [laughs] Yeah. The Times had a headline that was so funny. Yeah.
It said, "Confession, this has never been our beat, but [laughs] here we go." Yeah. And, um- But, but I think that's important for like, like business vertical publications- Mm-hmm... or even any niche.
Like, they operate within an, uh, uh, like a macroeconomic, um, and political reality. Yeah. And to...
So it's like you're sort of balancing, you need to go deep in this one area and, like, really be, like, focused on this and not get pulled into, like, general business news. Mm-hmm. Right? Yeah.
'Cause there's lots of places people can go. Bloomberg... Like, if you started writing about inflation, like, yeah, Bloomberg can write about inflation, but you have to find a way that it's within your purview. Yeah.
But you have to be aware of the macroeconomic trends going on. For sure. And tie, and tie it back to how it relates to, to our audience.
And I think our audience would rather read it from us because they know we're gonna relate it to them versus reading it in Bloomberg- Right... where it's, you know, just general.
What are other sort of big, um, home trends that you think are going on and will end up affecting your business? So other macro trends, I would say, you know, the, the, the great resignation on hiring.
So our job board is up 100% with people looking for staff. Mm. And it's very difficult for businesses to hire right now. I think it's an employee's market. They are demanding much higher salaries.
They want to know about the company culture. They want to have an impact. All the things that are totally fair, but they get to make these choices now- Yeah... and be selective. [laughs] They have leverage. Come on.
Yeah. Let's be, let's be honest here. [laughs] It's good. Workers have had a- Yeah... a bad run since, like, the 1970s, [laughs] so. Yeah. Yeah.
I think it's good that labor has its, uh, has, has its moment right now, and uses its leverage. 'Cause honestly, like, the employers use their leverage when they can. It's totally true.
Um, but for your business, you have like a regular jobs... Did you build it yourself, or is it like one of- We built it. Yeah, we built it ourselves. Oh, boy. Yeah. How did that go?
You know, it wasn't- We tried to bui-... I ask this 'cause we tried to build a jobs board and it was a disaster. Oh, interesting. No, it was actually, I... It was actually weirdly simple.
I even outsourced that part, like, a long time ago to a freelance developer.
He built it in a couple weeks, and then I think we've been tweaking it, but it's basically the same as it was when we [laughs] originally built it. And yeah, I mean, it's been- Should've gone to this person.
[laughs] Yeah. It... I think if you... We've definitely redesigned it since then. Uh, yeah. Yeah, yeah. We've for sure redesigned it, but- But what's the model?
The, the model is, like, a basic jobs board that you, like- Yeah... you, you pay to post a job.
Yep, and then you can do upgrades, have it featured on the homepage or in the news and pay extra per day and things like that. Do you do, like, employee branding? Employee branding? Or employer branding? Yeah.
Like, it's like... Employer branding. Oh. Sorry. Like having a little- Like, it's like a, you know, where it's like, it's, like, hard to get people now. Mm-hmm.
So it's like, "Oh, we do all these things and we have these perks, and we give back," and stuff like this. It's like telling the employer's story in order to attract more. Not really. Okay.
We have, like, they can write a little paragraph about themself, um, in the listing, but that's about the extent of it. Yeah. Yeah. How about recruiting? Have you thought about that?
Well, I have thought about it, and we did consider it. We went down that path. We were going to do it, and then I felt like it was gonna be, you know, very laborious, and I don't know.
It, it's a whole other business that- Yeah... it's not simple, and I don't know if that's really where we wanna- Yeah... focus our energy. We have partnerships with recruitment- It's hard to do.
I feel like it's one of those things-... where they'll give us, you know. Yeah. They, they, they'll advertise with us, you know, on our job board, things like that, where we're sending them leads.
But yeah, I don't think... I don't know that we wanna take that on. Yeah. Yeah, that's one that definitely, like, it's great on a whiteboard- Mm-hmm... and stuff like this. Mm-hmm.
But then, like, when you get into the executional details, uh, to make it really happen, like, you gotta be really in it. Yeah.
I mean, I see it work, but, like, it works when it's, like, a main part of someone's business. Like, a lot of these, these things are nice, incremental. Mm-hmm. You know?
That's like any media business is powered by a lot of, like, incremental, a lot of 10%, 15%. Right. Right. And that's, like, normal. And if you can do that in an automated way, it makes a ton of sense. Mm.
But if you're doing stuff that's very manual and requires a lot of infrastructure- Mm-hmm... and a lot of costs for, like, 10% of the revenue, it's gonna end up being a distraction or just not really well done- Yeah...
and you would- Yeah, exactly.
No, but I, I think the job board, I'm actually so surprised and happy that it has grown a, a lot, and I think a lot of that is just because of demand and people are probably placing their job also on LinkedIn in some cases.
But when LinkedIn- Mm-hmm... started getting going, I was like, "Oh, well, that was, that was a fun run with our job board," but [laughs] thinking- Have you used LinkedIn to fill jobs? I have. Oh my God. Yeah. I have.
Yeah. There's a volume problem there. They do- Yeah... they do well on the volume, but the sort of signal-to-noise ratio is, like, off the charts. It's true. [laughs] Yeah, it's pretty random. And then...
And I think, yeah, I mean, it's probably... I haven't done online dating, but I imagine it's- [laughs]... you know, someone will apply, and then you reach out- Yeah...
and they don't respond, or they don't show up to the interview, or it just seems like very little accountability. A lot of, like- It's like easy come, easy go... a lot... Yeah. Yeah.
A lot of, like, insane people matching you, I guess. [laughs] Right. Right. [laughs] Um, all right. So what other growth areas?
The growth areas, I think digital advertising, you know, adding more sales team, focusing on different categories, really digging deeper into our endemic list and reaching out to more people.
I think creating inventory is an issue for us, so we're redesigning things so that we have more inventory while keeping a good reader experience. I think that's a challenge.
I think there's a lot of opportunity in social, figuring out, you know, are we gonna do TikTok? You know, what more can we do, uh, you know, on Pinterest and Instagram that's original? We haven't really- Yeah...
you know, as a news site, we've kind of struggled 'cause Instagram is just kind of beautiful pictures. But then if we're doing that, how does that differentiate us? Are we gonna- Yeah... post headlines?
That feels weird for Instagram. So that hasn't been a singular focus. We haven't had a team dedicated to that, but I think that could be. Yeah. Gotta pick your battles. Exactly. Exactly. And how to evolve the conference.
Do we have more activations and more brand presence, more like a trade sh- like, a new evolution of a trade show? Yeah.
Obviously, we never wanna be a trade show, but I think content will always be our main focus for that. But more- I like that. It was the, the, "Obviously, we don't wanna be a trade show."
There's just- I think even people in the trade show business are like that. They're like, "Obviously, we don't wanna be in Las Vegas doing this," but- [laughs] Right... here we are.No, I think I, I like...
What I liked about your, your event was that it was, it was, it was truly, like, elevated. And I think that's the, the part that is difficult sometimes with the events thing.
It's easy to get pulled down into being very transactional and, like, being like, "Oh, next thing you know, like, you know, we've got, like, some table pops."
And then all of a sudden you're, like, going down that trade show route. Like, if start, people start mentioning, like, drages and stuff like this, like, pull the cord. Like, that's [laughs]
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So to wrap things up, Julia, um, you know, it's like a pat question, but I think, I think it's a good one, is, you know, you've been doing this now for, we're going on, like, 12 years or so, right? Mm-hmm.
There's a lot of people starting out, and hopefully they know not to be too daunting, but it's a long, torturous path to build, like, a media property. It's not like a straight line, hockey stick, or any of that stuff.
Um- Yeah... so looking back over it, like, what are, what are, what's anything that you would do differently?
Maybe growing a little more quickly, because it has been 12 years, and I, I think we, I could have taken the leap and, and hired a bigger sales team earlier on and grown more quickly.
I think I'm a naturally cautious person, and I didn't, you know, I wasn't...
I was raising money in 2009 before that was a thing, and I didn't realize you could just keep going back to the well and asking for more and more and more.
So I, you know, I raised one round, and then a second smaller round, and that was, and I, you know, I didn't wanna go back again.
So I was very cautious with the funds that we had and making sure that anything coming in, you know, we were very careful about how we were spending it. Mm-hmm.
So I think I probably could have been a little more aggressive with spending and hiring to, to build revenue more quickly.
But at the same time, you know, growing slowly really helped us because we're such a part of the community and the industry, and we grew according to what was natural for us- Yeah... um, and didn't really waste anything.
Like, there's no effort that we dumped a lot of money into and then scrapped. So we move into things very slowly and methodically and carefully, and then if we need to move out of them, it's not a huge loss.
So on that- Yeah... front, you know, it's kinda good, but I think we could have probably grown more quickly if I had been a little more risk tolerant. [laughs] Yeah. I'm with you. I don't... I, I hate risk. I mean, I...
Like, l- you learn to live with risk, but, like... And I think everyone has their own, like, sort of natural growth rate. And, like, sometimes I feel like- Mm-hmm...
people get pulled by, you know, stories of, oh, Morning Brew, they started, and they went, like, up, and they're, like, 180...
It's like, there's different growth rates for different people and different types of businesses, and I think it's fine- Yeah... personally. Yeah. [laughs] That's just the way I look at it. Yeah.
I mean, you don't wanna come back down. That's the other thing. Yeah. 'Cause if you grow too fast, and you're, like, way up- Yeah... and you make this huge splash, it's hard to go further than that.
So you don't wanna go up and then come back down. So it's nice to kind of go slowly up and then continue going up. Okay.
So finally, what, what's one piece of advice for, for those who are, you know, back where you were, like, in 2010 or 2011? I would say find your community.
I mean, there really has to be a community, um, there to support what you're doing.
And find a place that's kind of relatively untapped, because I think that gives you the best advantage and the best opportunity for success is if, like, if you're serving a market that's not tapped.
And I think there are quite a few markets out there like that.
And, you know, there are fewer journalists, so if you can find an area that's not being covered and really master that and become known for that, then it's incredible.
I mean, we still are that, and were for a long time, and I, I know a lot of bigger publications read us and look for ideas to then report in the big newspapers and magazines.
It's nice to have that position to really be an expert in a, in a specific niche. I know you're focused on the home now, but, like, what about other areas?
Like, generally, I, the way I think about growth with a media brand is like, you either expand wider or you go deeper. Mm-hmm.
I mean, there's obviously you can go deeper in this category, and sometimes you choose to do both because people love to do both. But, um- Yeah... generally, I think that's it. Like, you can go into adjacent areas.
Um, do you think about that? I do, yeah. I've thought about, you know, why isn't there a business of food or, you know, there are other categories that, that could make sense.
And I remember when I was first starting, I had met with Laurel Tobey, who founded Media Bistro. Um- Oh, yeah. I used to go to those parties with the feather boa. Totally.
And that actually was part of what I wanted to build for the design community, you know- Yeah... Media Bistro. And I sat with her and I said, "Why haven't you...
What's stopping you from replicating this model to other verticals?" And she said, "It's really hard, and you have to really be an expert in that other field and have deep connections and deep expertise.
It's not enough to just bring the idea and the format there." So, you know, I've always remembered that. Yeah.
And I think that is a pretty big thing to build such a deep expertise in another industry, and there's still a lot more room to go in the home industry.
There used to be whole publications around lighting or rugs or- Mm-hmm... supply chain or, you know, there's, there's a lot more that we could be doing, like manufacturing and retail as well.
A lot of our growth has been on the industry side because designers are sort of capped.
There are only so many working designers, so a lot of our audience growth has been just industry, so makers, manufacturers, retailers of home furnishings.Products and that, and that part of the audience we haven't really focused on, and so we're building newsletters for that part of the audience.
Maybe we'll, we'll build a conference for them, and we're monetizing them through a-some of these financial services, uh, companies. You know, buy now, pay later companies all wanna reach the, the brand.
So that's kind of a new area that we're developing and, and I think that's tremendous... Could be- Yeah... tremendous growth. And it could also...
I think one of the good things about the brand is that it's specific enough, but it's broad enough that you can put a lot under that umbrella, because starting new brands is, like, a pain in the ass.
Yeah, it's interesting- And because, like-... the philosophy about that... to build up one brand is really, like, you're, you're, like... That's an incredible achievement.
To build, like, a brand that means something to a specific community of people is, like, really hard to do, and to replicate it is a lot easier on whiteboards than it is in reality. [laughs] Yeah.
Yeah, no, that's, it's really interesting, and I look at the big publishers. Uh, some of them are very much like, "W-we build it ourselves," and others are like, "Why would we build it when we can buy it?"
And, and it's- Yeah... a very different philosophy, and I think, yeah, it just depends on the leadership and, and how they see it. But you're right. Yeah. It's incredibly hard to build from scratch and to...
'Cause it's time. You need time. I mean, the legacy- Yeah...
and I get why all these legacy brands are being acquired, because there's a lot of value there, and I think it's a lot easier to, to retrofit a legacy brand than to build a new brand from scratch. Oh, that's interesting.
So. Well, all right. Once again. Well, thank you so much, Julia. This was great, uh- Yeah. Thank you, Brian... to have this conversation. Yeah.
And thanks everyone for watching, listening, however you're getting this, and, uh, we'll be back next week with a new show. [outro music]