[upbeat music] Welcome to the Rebooting Show, a weekly discussion with people building sustainable media businesses.
I'm Brian Morrissey, founder of the Rebooting, and for twenty years I've been a journalist covering the media business. At the same time, I've been living the ups and downs of this business.
My first job in journalism lasted all of a year before the magazine I wrote for went out of business.
What became clear to me over the years is the business models in media companies were often geared to the short term and not the long term.
For a decade, I was the president and editor-in-chief at Digiday Media, a vertical media company.
And in my time there, we went from a WeWork with a handful of people to seventy-five people in offices in London and Tokyo, and a multimillion-dollar membership business too.
That's given me an appreciation of how hard the media business can be, and also how much the details and execution matter. Vision without execution is delusion in my view.
So this show is gonna focus on those details and the execution with those who are running media businesses.
[upbeat music] My guest this week is Adam White, CEO of FOS, a media company that's home to a B2B media brand with Front Office Sports, as well as a new consumer brand called Sports Section.
I got to know Adam several years ago when he was just getting Front Office off the ground. He's one of my favorite media founders.
He started Front Office Sports in college, and I love the niche that Front Office Sports is occupying in the business of sports.
I'm at least intrigued with the strategy of expanding from a B2B property into a mass market brand with the new newsletter franchise Sports Section.
Adam and I discuss how FOS got started, the opportunity they saw in the market, and how they've built FOS over the years. Hope you enjoy the conversation.
[upbeat music] Wanna take a quick break now to hear from our sponsor. But before I get to this week's sponsor, I wanna explain a little bit about how I'm going to approach sponsorships with the Rebooting Show.
This week and over the next three weeks, I'm gonna tell you about a business that's helping to build sustainable media businesses. Then in the following episode, so episode five,
which will be labeled as a spotlight episode in your feed, it will feature the sponsor itself.
I'll treat these episodes the same as I do every other episode, and the sponsor doesn't control the questions or the approach.
I'm interested to see how this works and would love to hear your feedback on it as it gets going. This week's episode is made possible thanks to the support of Silver Blade Partners.
Capital is like oxygen for businesses. But all companies in media, whether they're publishers, agencies, or tech providers, deal with cash flow concerns.
Forty-five to sixty days is the norm for accounts receivable, and this creates a velocity mismatch.
The media business moves incredibly fast, and it's only getting faster, while the financial system underpinning it slogs along like molasses.
For many publishers, this means running a business with high fixed costs in terms of salaries, benefits, rent, and more, while the financing structure creeps along like molasses.
That gap needs to be filled, leaving publishers with few good options. Many traditional lenders aren't experienced with these long payment cycles that have been normalized in the media business.
That's where Silver Blade Partners comes in.
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[upbeat music] So let's talk about origin stories, 'cause I, I wanna, like, break these up into chapters, and the first chapter is origin stories.
And, um, I mean, I met you a l- like, I think a couple years after your origin story. When I bang, when I banged down, when I banged down your door, and I just basically told Digiday to buy [laughs] Yeah.
Buy Front Office Sports. I love this. We'll get to that. But, like, explain, explain how you got into media, um, and how you started Front Office at college. Yeah. So it was very, I would say, non-traditional.
I, I always joke with people. I say that if you ever wanna start a business, try and start a media company with no audience, no experience, and no money and see what happens.
Somehow it's, it's worked out to this point for us. But yeah, so it all started, I was a freshman at the University of Miami. We were doing sports.
Uh, I was a sports admin major, so sports administration, and one of our projects was a informational interview, similar to kind of what we're doing here.
And in the informational interview and kind of overall messaging for the course was this whole idea of it's not about what you know, it's about who you know, and the more people you know, the better chance you have to get into sports.
And so did that project. I believe I sat down with the athletic director at the time. I enjoyed it. It was cool.
[lips smack] I went back to Arizona, where I'm born and raised, and I was playing baseball over the summer, working out, tried to get a job. No one really wanted to hire a kid for three months.
I looked at serving and things like that 'cause I was... Uh, it was. It's not the hiring market I feel like that it is now. I probably could've gotten forty dollars an hour if I was trying to be a, a server now.
But [lips smack] you know, it was something where it was just like, "All right, what am I gonna do?"
And for anyone who's ever been to Arizona or lived in Arizona during the summer, uh, it's extremely hot, and I didn't have a pool growing up as a kid. So it was like a hundred and fifteen during the afternoon.
I would play baseball at night, and then I would work out in the morning. So I'm like, "Well, I have some... I need to figure out something."
And so I was just like, "Well, what if I did these informational interviews and published them on a site?" And [chuckles] I said, "Okay."
And so I started thinking about it, and I was like, "I took this one informational interview, and I have the ability to do a bunch more."And the original name was supposed to be like Executive Report or something like that.
Thank God it was not. Yeah. Uh, no offense to Executive Report, but Front Office Sports like is much better. [chuckles] It just like works a whole lot better. Uh, so yeah.
So I paid a, uh, one of my friends who was a clothing designer like $40 for our original logo, uh, and then built the Wix website myself, and I like to joke with people- I love that. By the way, I miss the Wix website.
I remember the Wix website. The Wix website. Yeah, yeah. I, uh, I joke with people all the time that we were dark mode before dark mode was cool because- [chuckles]...
the site was literally a black site with like white text on it, and I was like, "Man, I was just four years- Yeah... ahead of time." Um, and so yeah. It was like very LA to me, you know? Yeah. It was, it was...
I don't know what I was doing with it. I was just, you know, [chuckles] trying to make it something and- But no, I thought it was great because like you just got it up and running. Yeah.
There's sometimes it's like- You didn't wait for it to be perfect. No, no. Didn't wait to, it to be perfect. But your, your- And honestly-... your goal was not to start a media company.
I know a lot of people go back- Not at all... and like- Zero. No... fa-fake stories after they become successful, but like you've been- No... telling the same one since, since I met you. Yeah. I mean, zero.
Like, honestly, it was never, it was never, uh, even crossed my mind. The whole idea was to use it to get a job, not have it become a job, and I never actually...
I, to this day, I joke with people that FOS at large has never actually succeeded in the original mission. It like never got me a job. It became a job. It never got me a job. [chuckles] Uh, so yeah.
So that was the whole, that was the whole point, and I obviously met a ton of people. I did 110 informational interviews that first year, uh, which was, which was crazy.
I remember my first one, this guy who I still know, Ravi Shah.
I still remember it, and this obviously five years later, he was a social media coordinator at the Sports Quotient, which was founded by Zachary, uh, Wiener, who's now obviously at Overtime.
I think he had did it, that was like one of his first things. And I remember I had like 20 questions like lined out, and I just went through all of them. The interview was two hours long.
It took me four hours to transcribe it, and I was like, "All right. Well, this is never gonna happen again if I'm gonna be able to do this." Yeah. And so yeah.
So that was, that was how it all started, and then I did the 110 informationals and kinda just kept going from there. Did, did you have any strategy? And I find it refreshing if you say you had no strategy.
Uh, early on- 'Cause a lot of people go back and like they're like, "Well, I saw the market, and it was this- Yeah... and there was a white space." But did you like have any idea what you were doing or no? No.
I mean, honestly, look, I was... It was, I was a freshman in college. I, uh, just coming out of my freshman year of college. I was like, "Yeah, I know how to talk to people, and I can c-carry a conversation."
Um, and I was just like, "Hmm, oh, look at this." I saw, I started to look around, seeing what people were doing. We started to get active on Twitter, right?
You know, saw what Ravel was doing, and I think things came, like strategies came- Yeah... and the business has shifted a lot. But like,
you have no money, and there's nothing to think about other than just like, "Hey, let's get content up and see what it do-" I remember like one interview got 200 page views, and I was like, "Holy [censored]" Like, I was like, "Print the cash."
Like, yeah, I wasn't making any money or anything like that, and I still... I remember the first day we had, the University of Nebraska was our first partner, our first sponsor, a $2,500 check. I still have it somewhere.
Um, but like that was probably a year later. But yeah, for the most part, it was literally just kind of, for lack of better term, thr-throw shit up against the wall until it sticks and see what happens.
And I think, you know, we started to do that. We brought on some early contributors who kind of wrote different things, um, you know, whether it was... And we weren't like breaking news or anything like that.
It was much more career advice-y. Like, that's what it started. Mm-hmm. And it was much more career advice-y things like that, and I think the big,
our, our, our big ki- not break, but definitely our big break in the general scheme of things was Rising 25, which was the award we launched. And it was like, you know- Wait, this was still the...
We're still in University of Miami. Still in school. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. So I laun- I launched that like- You launched an award program while you were like in school?
Y- uh, it was like- [chuckles] Your college experience was way different than mine, let me just say. Yeah, yeah. [chuckles] It was very different than most, to be honest with you.
Uh, yeah, like the first year was 2017, and I graduated in 2017. Um, our- Okay... our first partner for Rising 25 was, uh, Teamwork Online, which is a job board.
But that Rising 25 turned out to be the linchpin for our Anheuser-Busch deal, which we got in the, uh, early spring of 2018, which then, uh, actually not even the early spring, like the mid, uh, '18, mid of '18, which is right after we met our investors.
And so they were like, "Oh, if Anheuser-Busch is gonna cut you a check for this, well, at least that is something meaningful as for us to put in paper." And obviously, like- Yeah...
we didn't raise a ton of money at the time, but like looking back on it, Rising 25, just some random idea that... 'Cause we spoke to so many people.
Like, that was my whole idea, was I just wanted to get an "MBA," quote unquote, by just speaking to people.
And what they told me all the time is that all these young professionals that work in sports never get any accolades. They work the hardest. They don't get paid. And so I was like, "Well, what if we like do Rising 25?"
Everyone has like their 30 under 30 or like, you know, uh, 40 u-under 40, and I'm like, "But like that always indexes much higher from an age standpoint.
Let's do 25 and kinda set our, um, [lip smacks] set our foot in the sand." And yeah, we, we did that, and it's been, I mean, it's been probably the most impactful thing we've ever done.
So when you graduated from college, was it 2017? Oh my God. Yeah, summer of 2017. I'm s- I feel so old. [chuckles] Jesus Christ. Um, but that's okay. Um, you, you knew this was gonna be a full-time thing.
You, you were like, "I think there's something here." No, not even, not even then. No? Honestly, no. [chuckles] Not even then. So I, uh- You gotta, you gotta change your origin story.
You gotta be like, "I knew it from the beginning." No, no. I mean, I'll be honest, I didn't. I mean, ho-hones- I went, I, I went- Honesty will get you ve- not very far in media. Yeah, I know.
Ask Ozzie for hands, I guess. I don't wanna end up like that. Um, but anyways, so I, I didn't. I graduated in '17, and I was still like thinking about... Like, we had made a couple bucks. We had launched Rising 25.
We had made a couple bucks, like nothing serious. Uh, we were still like kind of, you know, middle of the r- again, I was in college. I had no money. I didn't have any experience.
We had built a little audience on social and like I remember it was so funny, and, and the Variety people won't wanna hear this, but I remember we had 5,000 followers on TwitterSomehow I got invited to be press at a variety, like, a sports and inter-- a sports and information summit or something like that in LA.
So I, like, flew out to LA. I don't think that press thing ever came through, and so I kind of, like, finessed my way into this [chuckles] like, variety event, and I was just like, "Oh, well, this email said it."
And they're like, "Well, we don't have your name on this." And I was like, "Well, like..." And so whatever.
I finessed my way into it, and we got verified on Twitter that day and, like, I don't know, we, like, posted about the event, and Variety, like, retweeted it from the main account, and we're like, "Holy shit," like, "we're off and running."
Um, so, so anyways, that was one thing that was, that was funny, and I, I, I distinctly remember.
But yeah, in twenty seventeen, I graduated in May, and my whole kind of thought process at that time was like, "Okay, this is still gonna be a side hustle, and we're still going to make it something that, um, you know, hopefully we keep going.
I'm gonna get a full-time job." I had interviewed a couple places.
I had an offer at one place, and then-- but I was really focused on this corporate partnerships job at the PGA Tour, and I would've moved to, uh, Ponte Vedra Beach, like, just outside of Jacksonville.
I did twelve rounds of interviews. Oh my God. That would've been terrible. I st- [chuckles] That would've been terrible. I started in April. [chuckles] I started in April,
did twelve rounds of interviews all the way through, uh, end of August, and I was still living on campus. And so I got back from the interview. I, I was like, "Oh, this is a shoo-in."
Like, there's literally no way this doesn't happen. They said they went with another candidate, and I'm like, "Well, shit, I have no place to live." I hadn't really been working b- outside of FOS.
Like, I, I had a bar-bartending job and a manager job at the restaurant on campus. We have a bar on campus at Miami, so I worked there my full... all my four years.
And I just was thinking, like, "Holy shit," like, "I have no money. I have none of this stuff." I was like, "I have an audience.
I kinda have this thing that's over here, and maybe the world is telling me to do this thing."
And so luckily, at the time, I was, I was dating a girl who had, um, had an apartment off-campus, and so I literally, the summer after I graduated, I crashed there, got a job serving at a, like, a family-run restaurant in a spot r- not, not far from, uh, not far from Miami.
Miami ended hi-hiring me, uh, as a TA for the program. And then I was helping as TAs for the program. I was working on the business, and then I was serving on nights and weekends.
And, uh, I just was like, "Okay, well, so let's see what we can do here." And from middle of seventeen to early eighteen, that's how it all happened.
Then, you know, obviously, I met Jason on Twitter in, in early eighteen. They invested us the end of eighteen, and I moved to New York in nineteen and hired our first full-time employee.
So [chuckles] it's, like, crazy, but that's, you know, that's, like, su-s-succinct as possible. Yeah, yeah. That's a good origin story 'cause it's, it's, it's actually, it sounds like it's mostly the true story.
Usually I get, usually I, I get fake stories. But let's move on to, to the next chapter, which is the opportunity. What's the opportunity? Yeah.
I mean, you're the, the front office sports, so originally the opportunity was the business of sports. I know when we first- Yep... we first met, um, I forget. It was actually in Miami.
I remember it was in Key Biscayne, I think. Um- Uh, no, I mean, I think, I think the Key Biscayne- Really?... was the second time we met. Oh, really?
We met in- I think the first time was when we met was in New York at your old office, the Digiday's old offices, like the really small one that was kinda dark.
I can't remember, uh, where we were- Oh, Mercer and, and- But it was like the... Yeah... in S- in SoHo. Yeah. Yes. That was cool. Exactly. I liked that. That was my favorite of our offices. Um- Yeah...
but I remember, like, because, like, our, our thing was basically technology, you know, disrupting these businesses, but it was also, I always felt like we did better in, like, industries that had cultural heat, you know.
Media punches above its weight, otherwise who-- In what other industry would anyone give a shit about Ozzy Media? Um- [chuckles] Fashion and beauty- It's Ben Smith's, like, it's Ben Smith o'clock is what they said.
[chuckles] Yeah. Fashion and beauty, uh, with, uh, with Glossy, and then retail I guess is a little bit different.
But, um, I, I-- Sports is, is a similar thing, and I think the dynamics that you saw were kinda similar to what we saw. They, they had traditional legacy players that were simply not in tune with- Yeah...
the, the, what, where things were going. Yeah. I mean, that's pretty much it, and, like, obviously we figured that out as we, as we went, right? Like, from...
And I think the biggest thing is I always, I always tell people is that honestly, the informational interviews were the best thing that happened because we figured out exactly what we needed to do as soon as we had the money.
If we would've had the money before we did the informational interviews, I guarantee you, like, we wouldn't be having this conversation because we would've never figured it out.
I spent four years doing informational interviews, talking to people, having no money, having to figure it out, and they just told us everything we should do. They were like, "You should keep it free.
You should lean into this. You should, you know, do things with young people."
And so when we finally got a little bit of the money to really put some gas on what we had kind of started, then it's like, okay, like, this makes a ton of sense.
And so yeah, obviously it's changed a little bit too, um, given kind of where we're at, but at the time it's like, look, there's a whole, we're kind of, like, this whole thing is now, it's like we're sports meets industry, just similar, like, everything is related to fashion, right?
Like, everyone's doing... Like, Tom Brady today just announced a, an apparel line, right? So now it's like fashion and sports and investing in sports and crypto and sports, right? Like, all these different spaces.
And so, you know, I saw what Darren Rovell was doing, and I saw what some of these other people were doing, and really no one had ever been, like, outside of the legacy publishers say, "Hey," like, "we're gonna make the business of sports kinda, like, sexy and cool and available for all."
There's, like, SBJ. Like, that's what I always thought of- Yeah... as SBJ. It's all paywalled. It, it seems it's, like, an old site. It's, like, kinda... I don't know. It's pretty, pretty good. Yeah.
Look, they, they, they do, they do a, they do a good job, and they're owned by a big, um, big conglomerate in Condé Nast, and, like, like, the American City Business Journals, like, roll up into all of that, and it's, like, a massive organization.
Uh, but our whole thought with them is that they really cover a, a space in the industry that's, like, for the one percent, and it's only for the people working in and out of the- Yeah...
the sports indust- like, in the sports industry.
Whereas, like, we're trying to build a publication that Mark Cuban reads or the general counsel of Netflix read, and both of them are readers 'cause obviously we know they subscribe to the newsletter.
But, like-But also the social media coordinator for the- But also, yes... Jacksonville Jaguars. 100% because the whole idea- Because I think that is the critical thing, like even without being, you know, as young as you.
Like [chuckles] I remember like when, when... The reason that marketers go after young people is because they haven't f-formed their brand preferences as strongly as old people. You can't convince me of anything.
You know that, Adam, right? Yeah. [chuckles] I, I've... Anything-- I am not buying anything new anymore for the rest of my life. Um, but, but really they don't have the habits. So like you're, you're always pushing...
I, I always felt like you're always pushing like a boulder up a hill in trying to fight against the legacy and the in, uh, you know, they've got distribution over you, they've got people just, they've been, they have habits and stuff like this.
But these young people don't have any habits. 100%. 100%. Yeah. I mean, like literally that's Rising 25, right? Yeah. We said we're gonna set a dam at Rising 25, and anyone who comes through us, guess what?
They're gonna be brand advocates for the rest of their lives, and then they'll be, in five years will be the people who are making the decisions and everything like that.
And that's what I, I just honestly, I've never gotten, and again, I don't come from legacy media. I never sold media outside of what I've sold here at FOS. You graduated from- Uh, college in 2017.
[both laughing] Yeah, yeah. Exactly. Um, but- How much experience are you supposed to have? I just, I don't know. It's the whole idea, right? Five years at Conde. Yeah, exa-exactly.
But like the whole thought, like everything that we were always, like everyone was telling us was like, "Oh, like, you know, these people, you know, they reach all the C levels. They reach all the C levels."
And I'm like, "Yeah, but like your brand reaching a C level, they've already like made their decision."
I'm like, my whole thing is I wanna reach the senior manager/senior director type of people and below, because what's gonna happen is if you get them excited about whatever your product is, they are probably going to take it up to their boss and say, "Hey, I saw this and I think we should look into it."
Or what's gonna happen is they're gonna have approval, they're going to implement it, and then what, like it's gonna give them a promotion or like it's going to work for them from a tech side of things, and it's gonna allow them to do something else in their career.
And so that's like why we were able to kind of take a lot of early advertising market shares because we were...
W- even our like branded content and the things that we were doing, like we were one of the first people to do webinars, as like crazy as this seems.
Obviously, webinars are now in vogue because that's every- I love webinars. Everyone is like- You know that, Adam. Yep. Yeah, [chuckles] of course. Like they're great.
Uh, but you know, when we were like r- uh, like kind of looking at the market from the business side of things, we're like, "Hey, like we should be doing this," and like, and no one else was doing it.
And we were, and we always said like, "No, this is like a c- like our webinars are conversation driven. It's not sales driven."
It's like, and it's like super engaging, and the reason why is because we want people who are younger, and like that's kind of how it worked, and we were able to kind of see like super results.
Like we were out kicking our coverage four to one when it came to ad spend to return early on, and that's why we were able to build a lot of really good partners.
So yeah, like I said, like I always tell people, it, it really is true. If I would've had the money, I, um, just before we did the, spent the four years doing what we did and built like kind of like...
And look, it's not like a bar stool audience at all, right? It's very different. They're super rabid, and it's a completely different thing.
But we literally spent four years cultivating an audience that like liked us at our very worst- Yeah... or I, I wouldn't even say our very worst, but our very like intro before everything else.
And so, but like they just liked what we were doing and like what we were trying to do.
I think that's the other thing too that people don't really think about a lot oftentimes, is people will give you some grace as long as you're trying to do it. Totally.
Like, and as long as you're trying to be different and provide them with something and provide them with value and like not ask for anything in return.
Like the other thing too is like we knew we couldn't charge for anything, so we're like- Yeah... "We're just gonna give it away for free." Like why not?
Because that gives us a competitive advantage literally and still to this day. Exactly. That's the word, competitive advantage. Yeah.
And I also, I think that's a great point you make because like you forget how forgiving people are when, when y- i- as long as you show you give a shit, like people- Yeah... are forgiving.
Like, I mean, I used to joke with Early Digital, we, we committed every atrocity like possible, like honestly. [chuckles] And like people were pretty forgiving.
I mean, we ran an entire award show where the host got confused and read off the wrong winners, where we had to like go and like collect the trophies from the people who thought they won and like distribute them.
[both laughing] Like awkward. Yeah. I mean- But people forgive. Some people were pretty pissed. It took them a couple days to forgive. But people did forgive. Yeah.
And you know, you gotta just do it at the end of the day and, and, and build that, and people will be on your side.
And I think the other thing with money, I think that's an interesting point because I would always say like, you know, not having... Look, it's not all like great, right? It's, it's- Yeah...
it's bad because you can see opportunities sometimes and you can't p-pour gas on them, and that's- Yeah... frustrating.
Um, but it's good because you can't waste time on, on shit that's not gonna w-work or continue to waste time on shit that's not working.
And that is unbelievable because your one scarce asset, it's like a cliché, but like your one scarce asset is your focus. Yeah. No, 100%. I mean, like I said, and it's just like something we,
w- uh, uh, I would say it was like honestly, yes, it was focus for us and we were focused on a certain topic, but then I was...
I even think that we, because we had no money, we like, I wouldn't say we were unfocused, but we had to try everything, literally everything, to like try and make money, to try and to drum up excitement, to tr- I mean, we had like a content partnership with the College Football Playoff at some point.
Like I have no idea why that happened, but it just like worked, and we put it everywhere and like it validated it every... And that's the other thing too, is it's just like one validation at a time, right? Yeah.
Like that's honestly kind of what you need, whether it's a subscriber, whether it's an interview, right?
'Cause I rememberI started out interviewing the social media coordinator at a sports publication no one has ever heard of, which is fine.
Like, Ravi Shah is great, great dude, to where I was interviewing, like, general counsels and presidents and, like, heads of brand at Adidas, but it's just, like, all... It just, it's just, like, a... It's just- Yeah...
you know, steps, right? So you have to take these different steps, even just, like, when we sell, right? [laughs] As soon as we got Anheuser-Busch, I was like, "Holy shit, we can get anyone," because guess what?
Anheuser-Busch is a, like, they in- like, wanna be a part of us. So- Yeah... yeah, it's just honestly- So I wanna talk about that for the... in the, in the next segment, which is execution. Yeah. Because you...
there's, there's one thing of seeing the white space and, you know, and starting it and stuff, but then it's, it's a totally different thing to actually execute, and, and that's where the magic is. I'm...
Look, it takes vision and it takes execution, but I... You know, without, without the execution, vision is, is your delusion. There's a, there's a lot of, like...
There's a lot of people with great vision down in South Beach. You know, I just came from there. [laughs] You know, but they also don't have shirts on.
I think, I th- [laughs] yeah, I was gonna say, I think their vision comes from [laughs] maybe a few, uh- And they s- they smell of alcohol a- and, and weed. Um- Yeah, exactly.
[laughs] So let's talk about execution and, and Anheuser-Busch, like, for, specifically because, um, you know, I think a lot of times when you're starting something new, you are looking for that kind of validation, and you wanna find...
I remember talking with, uh, Brian Goldberg about early, um, Bleacher Report, and he was like, "If I can sell five,
like, hundred thousand dollar deals, I c- we can, we can build, like, a, a really big business and stuff." And it's different levels for different types of businesses. Yeah, for sure.
But, like, you know, at least that's the way I'm looking at it with the reboot, and I'm like, "If I can sell a deal for this, then there's probably 10 more like this." Um, of course- 100%... it's really hard to do.
But talk about the Anheuser-Busch and getting them on board, 'cause I, I remember in talking to you, I was, like, massively impressed. [laughs] Honestly, it's the craziest...
It's not, like, the craziest story, but so I went to... A- again, this is just, like, some random thing. I went to Chicago. We were a content partnership, uh, partner where they didn't pay us really...
They didn't pay us anything. I just footed the bill, um, with, at IEG.
It was a, it was a conference that was, like, a sponsorship conference, and what we did is we were just pulling people to the side, and I was just doing quick interviews.
We were videoing it, and we were clipping it up and sharing it on social. I sat down with Nick Kelly, who's now the president of, uh, Charlotte FC.
He's moved on from AB since then, and he was, at the time, like, he ran sports at Anheuser-Busch. And so we had a good conversation, just made friends and, you know, talked every once in a while.
Was, was he, like, a reader? Like, I mean, I guess he was a reader, but, like, had he been- Uh, yeah... a reader for a while? Yeah, yeah.
He definitely knew who we were, and I don't know, at the time, like, what was this? Like, hmm, yeah, he, he knew who we were for... I don't...
I, again, like, this was early on, and we weren't even really doing the newsletter to where we are now at this point, right? Like, this was- Yeah... early stages.
But he knew who we were, knew who we were a reader, or knew us a reader, and so w- him and I chatted, and he just mentioned, like, any... Like, "Let me know if you have anything. Like, keep me updated."
And so, I don't know, I had sent him a couple other emails, but I had found out that he responded to emails on Sundays. The dude is busy.
Like, he told me he had 160 properties he oversaw, like Anheuser-Busch, basically all sports. Like, the dude was insanely busy. I don't know how he did it. Um, but he would always respond to my emails on Sunday.
And so randomly I was like, "Hmm." I was like, "Anheuser B-..." I was like, "Rising 25," I said, "We have this idea." And I said, "We have this package."
And what I basically pitched it to him as in the email is I said, "Look, I think this could work.
You don't really sponsor any awards, but" I said, "we have this award that basically is a lifetime moment that if they win, like, no one is ever going to forget. Like, you're just gonna remember it forever."
And we're like, "Why don't we just align you guys with that? We'll do some really cool things." And so,
yeah, the first one was, uh, and it, it was, it was crazy because it was literally, it was, like, a three-email thread. And he's like, "This sounds great. Send me a contract." And I was like, "Are you shitting me?"
And, like, there was... I didn't even have any e- number in my head, and so I remember Russ, like, my co-founder, and I ended up meeting him in Miami. Wait, you, you, you hadn't put a number? N- no, I didn't.
I just said, "What do you think?" And he's like, "This sounds great. Send me a contract." [laughs] And I was like, "Okay." I was like, I was like, "Blank check, I guess."
And so, um- Is he doing any, uh, any newsletter sponsorships? [laughs] Yeah. About that? No, I mean, maybe, m- maybe. Not anymore. I don't know. He's, he's not at AB anymore. Nick. But, like, yeah, so yeah.
Nick- Nick, Nick Kallme. Nick. Yeah, Nick Kelly. Yeah, Kallme. [laughs] Um, and he, uh,
yeah, I remember Russ, my co-founder, who's been, you know, integral part of this, and I, we haven't spoken a lot about, but it was someone I met at Miami, and him and I kind of hit it off, and I joke about it, but he, he was the only person to respond to my Facebook group.
So we had a Facebook group for the sports admin program, and he was actually a sports admin minor. I said, "Hey, I'm starting this, like, thing in college." And he's like, "All right. Like, I'll help out."
And he was, like, originally the social media guy. So when you said that- Like, he did social media with us... you said this in the Facebook group, and it was, like, crickets except for, except for Russ.
[laughs] L- he was the only one who ever responded. Only one.
And we went and had, uh, we went and had Caesar salad at The Rat, which is, The Rat is, like, the bar on campus, and the only reason we went is 'cause we're fucking broke college kids, and I had a discount, [laughs] right?
And so, so I was like- Caesar salad's pretty fancy, though. They- I know... we didn't have Caesar salad at our cafeteria at college. Oh, yeah. No, it was great.
So, um, so yeah, so him and I got connected there, and he's been my, you know, my right-hand man ever since. And so anyways, like, him...
going back to this, uh, Anheuser-Busch thing, like, him and I are like, "Like, what the fuck do we put? Like, do we put, like, uh, 200,000? Do we put..."
And so we, like, finally landed on a number, and Nick was like, "Yeah, sounds good." And I was like, "Okay." [laughs] Was the num- was the number... Can... Are you gonna tell me what the number is? Come on.
Nick's not even at the job. Uh- Come on... no, yeah, no, it was, it was, it was 100. And- Hundred... it was like- They gave you 100. And I was like, "But that, that was, like, massive for me at the time." No.
I was like, "Oh my gosh." [laughs] Dude, I would like- I was like, "What?" I would go nuts if... I would be, like, doing laps around the Terra Beachfront Condo- I, I literally was like jumping...
if I sold something for $100,000. I was like, "I like to share." I shared a room- But, but, but-... or I shared a apartment...
but seriously, you, you charged probab- it probably was more than you felt comfortable charging, wasn't it? Oh, 100%. Because, like, I always think- Yeah...
one of the, one of the rules that I've learned is, like, always charge more than you're comfortable.Yeah. And I was like, "Honestly," I'm like, "I'm gonna shoot this and see what happens."
[chuckles] "I'll give them a year, I'll give them a year exclusivity partnership- Yeah... and I'll shoot it and see what happens." And he's like, "Yeah, this is fine."
And it took him a c- little bit to sign the contract, but they, uh, they signed the contract, and we were, we were off and running in twenty nineteen. We, um, they were the partner again. Yeah.
They just re-signed a three-year deal with us, uh, to be the partner again. They've, uh, that since expanded into other industry awards.
We have a competitor not to be named who literally launched a, a, an award that's called New Voices Under Thirty, and it's also sponsored by Anheuser-Busch. Oh, man.
Three or four years after we launched Rising twenty-five, and so- It's okay... uh, yeah. It is what it is. Don't take it personally. But, you know, it's, it's been, it's been great, right?
Like, we've been able to do really cool things with us. They trust us, um, a lot, which is, like, the other thing too, is that we really learned early on is that, like, for Anheuser-Busch, that money doesn't...
Like, it means something, but, like, in the grand scheme of things, it doesn't mean a lot of things versus, like, a tech company who spends, like, ten thousand dollars, and, like, that means, like, everything, and they have to see returns, or they're not gonna, like, ever- Yeah...
work with you again. And so they've always been so... I mean, last year, uh, we built a digital and physical, uh, soccer team.
Like, everyone got soccer jerseys, and we made, like, soccer kits with AB InBev, like Rising twenty-five logos. Everyone this year has starter jackets, um, so it's like throwback to the nineties.
And, you know, our kind of internal barometer for the success of n- the, the products and things that we're doing is, like, we always say, like, we don't set the bar, we raise the bar.
So even if we set the bar personally, it's like, how do we raise it the next year, right?
The first year we had Rising twenty-five, or the second year we had Rising twenty-five, we had, like, a gala at a nightclub, and we rented out the entire, an entire nightclub in, in New York City and had, like, two hundred people there.
It was, like, amazing. Wait, I think I came. Was this at w- this was, like, at the Jay-Z place, was it not? At Marquee. It was at Marquee. You might have come, honestly. I might have. I might have come.
I think I invited you. Yeah. I feel like, uh, maybe I'm confused then. I thought it was, like, at Forty Under Forty. What was it, Forty, Forty, Forty was this called? Uh, For- it's Forty Forty Club.
It's the Forty Forty Club. Oh, I wasn't there. Yes. It wasn't there, but it was at... [chuckles] Have it at Space, I'll be there. Exactly. [chuckles] Uh, no, it's Eleven. If we're gonna have it anywhere, it's Eleven.
That's, that's the spot. I don't even know what that is. I don't... So yeah. Oh, you, yeah. You, you should, you should go. I'm into Northeast with all the old people. Like, it's small. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
[chuckles] You need to get down to Eleven. I think, uh, I think you'd enjoy it, but- I might let the COVID calm down a little bit more before I go to, go to Eleven. [laughs] What? There's no COVID in Miami.
What are you talking about? [laughs] Yeah, exactly. What are you talking about? There's no COVID.
Yeah, there's- Um, so, so Anheuser-Busch, that definitely was, like, a validation that you, you got a business on your hands. And then, then it was a, a question of, how do I grow this business?
How do we grow this business? And ultimately, you have to decide, are we gonna bootstrap it, or are we gonna take outside funding? What are we gonna do? Explain that. Yeah. 'Cause we talked a little bit. I...
One of my big regrets, uh, was that we didn't do a deal 'cause it would've been a great deal, but we had too many things going on.
But explain what you, you were thinking, 'cause I always thought in talking to you that, um, and no bullshit, like, that you, like, one of your great, um,
strengths was that you were very self-aware for, for someone, um, you know, who's pretty early in his career. You were very early. You graduated- Yeah, very early... two thousand and fourteen, dude. Uh, [laughs]
I'm not gonna sugarcoat it. Yeah. You were really young. And, like, but you, you were very thoughtful and self-aware about, like, you know, what you...
Y-you knew, you knew a lot, but you also knew that there was some stuff you didn't know. [chuckles] Yeah. And look, I mean, honestly, at the end of the day, that's, like, I knew there was a space.
Like, I knew there was an opportunity for us. We had, that, we had spent four years validating it.
Again, this goes back to the whole money or validation thing, and we spent four years validating it while I was at school. People were telling me, "Hey, you should do this. You should look at this. You should try this."
And, um, you know, it was, it was so funny.
It's like, it kind of comes full circle because right after we had gotten the investment, I actually ended up getting a tip from someone that the AAF, which was the Alliance of American Football, was going bankrupt.
That one of that, that person was someone who I had done an informational interview with two or three years ago. We ended, I ended up having to go into some... And look, I'm not even a reporter.
Like, I was just like, "Oh my God." Like, I was, I was, like, running our social channel at the time, whatever. And I was like- There's no accreditation process. It's fine...
I was, like, palm sweating, like, trying to go through, like, I think it's the SARS system or something. I can't remember. It's like the legal system where you can see, like, filings. Oh, yeah.
And I found the filing, I grabbed the picture. I was like, "I think this is the right copy." I'm like, "I don't, I'm illegal. I'm not, like, a lawyer." [chuckles] I was literally texting, like, our pro bono lawyer.
I was like, "Is this right? Like, can I say this?" And so we put it out, and we w- I mean, we broke the news by, like, a, a country mile. No one was anywhere near us, and it went viral. Everything was like that.
We didn't, I didn't even get a story. We didn't even have a story on the site, right? Like, we had kinda, we had hired an editor, and I, like, just went rogue, and I was like, "I'm gonna get this up," whatever.
Uh, but that led to us hiring, um, you know, Mike, who's been on our team as, like, a, a senior writer, and 'cause he saw the story and was like, "Oh, this is really interesting. I haven't seen anything like this."
But it's just been like... So anyways, back to the investment side of things, but that's, like, a roundabout way, but that's a- But that, just like, it, uh, just like that's another validator, right? Yeah.
Like, you're, you're just like, you're building, you're building.
And I think a lot of times people, you know, they look for home runs and stuff, and, you know, I wanna have people on who are building stuff, uh, on this podcast.
And the, the truth of the matter is you're do- you keep doing, doing, doing stuff, and then you get these validations, and you get, and you start to, you start to stack them, and pretty soon you got something- Yeah...
on your hands. Yeah. It's, like, incremental and then quickly, like, whatever- Yeah... or always people...
I, I always say, like, yeah, like, that story, it wouldn't have happened if I didn't do what I did three years ago, and it just happened to all work out in our favor, right?
So yeah, I mean, again, it's just like as you know, media businesses, unless, like, you hit a home run or you have something extremely hot, like, right away, it's impossible to build.
Like, it's not like something like you can go from, like, zero to a hundred million in ARR in two years like some of these software companies, because it's just not physically possible, right? Yeah.
Like that, and it's just, it's always a trailing effect, as you know, right?
Like, you spend a year building an audience, and now you can monetize that whole audience the next year, and then, then you have to spend another year n-not only keeping that audience, but building more audience, and then you can...
Like, so it's just like there's always, like, a trailing effect. And so yeah, that all kind of happened in-You know, the reason we took investment is just it, uh, fortuitous, it just happened.
And it's really l- again, like I, I was in the right place at the right time, and I always tell people, and it was so funny, one of the same...
So the same person who I spoke with about the tip also gave me a, a career advice that I always remember, and it's like, "Be a fountain, not a drain."
And so whenever I reached out to anyone, it was like value add, right? Like, it was like, "Hey, like, this is what it is." And so somehow j- and when I-- Jason and I got connected- You're saying Jason Stein?
It was literally, it was J- so yeah, Jason Stein, who was on the Digiday podcast. I know you guys- Exactly...take a royalty for that. Thank you. But, uh- What do I get? Like one percent? Yeah.
[chuckles] One percent's fine. We'll add it, we'll add it to the cap table. Um- [laughs] Anyway, so I'll tell Jason to, I'll tell Jason to give you that allocation. [laughs] Comes out...
No, it doesn't come out of your share. It comes out of Jason's, just so you know. Yeah, it comes out of his. Yeah, it comes out of his.
Um, but anyway, so yeah, like he, he was on the Digiday podcast, and he talked about some things, and I was like, "Oh, really relatable." I quote tweeted the podcast. Him and I were following, or he, I was following him.
He wasn't following me.
He followed me, and then we just happened to, at that time, had shared a piece of content from Cycle, which was the content agency that he was running, on FOS, like probably two or three days earlier, that kind of went viral.
So I sent it to him in a DM, and I was like, "Hey man, good to be connected. If you ever have anything else like this, like let me know," blah, blah, blah. And he's like, "Yeah, will do."
And we kind of went back and forth. I would always, like if I saw something about them, I would send it to him. Like I think it was the Moet deal. They did something with ESPN. I sent it to him.
I said, "This was really cool." And again, super fortuitous, the girl who I was living with at the time in, in Miami ended up breaking up with me. And I am not an emotional tweeter at all.
But for some reason, I literally just was like, tweeted out, "It's amazing what can happen in a year." And he saw it and sent it to me in a DM and literally said, "How can I help?"
And that's how it started, and three years later, he can't get rid of me. Um- Wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait.
Were, were you tweeting about the girl, and he thought it was about something else? I was, I was tweeting about everything at the time.
[laughs] It was like, it was just like a mi- it was like the girl, like- You gotta tell me the fucking origin story, dude. [laughs] Why? This is like the reals it gets. I know. I like this. Like the real reals it gets.
I like this. But yeah. Realest streets. So it was literally...
It was, yeah, it was, it was, uh, yeah, it was like all about like some of the other things, and again, just happened to be in the right place at the right time.
Oh my God, did he really do, did he really do the, "How can I help?" Jason, come on. That's cliché. Yeah, he DM'd me and said, "Let me know how I can help." It's cliché, dude.
And so we got on a call in early April of '18. I went into, in, I went to New York in mid '18, mid 2018. And I'll never forget this.
I like basically harassed his assistant after we had that call into making sure we had a meeting. And then we get there, and he has his office in Dumbo. It's beautiful.
I go in, and like the, um, the assistant had like breakfast burritos waiting, and he jokes with me. He's like, "He never gets breakfast burritos for anyone, so he must like you." Oh. Uh, and then as I...
Like we had the meeting, we chatted, whatever. And then I left, and I like went to dap up his assistant, and I ended up like hitting his like reed oil things and just spilling it over the entire desk.
And I was like, "Are you fucking kidding me?" Reed oil. I was just... [laughs] Yeah, like so you know like the, like the scented like oils that you put the sticks in- Oh, really?...that like smell?
Yeah, he had it on his desk. But I hooked it, and I spilled it everywhere. Ah, okay.
So I'm literally in the cab back to Midtown 'cause I was at a conference or something like that, ordering like fucking Amazon On Demand to like drop this guy a fucking reed oil. [laughs] It was the funniest...
[laughs] I was just like, "Oh my..." I was like, "I'm so- That's hilarious...I like just totally screwed this up." Um- Yeah. Doesn't matter...but ended up, ended up not, so. All right.
So he, you, you guys ended up hooking up, and then, you know, then you had sort of the, the capital you needed to execute the next sort of phase of FOS, yeah? Yeah, definitely.
And my battery's about to run out, so you can cr- you can crop this, but I'm gonna go run and grab my charger and plug it in. I'll just give me one sec. All right. I'll be right back. Sorry.
That hap- that was happening to me yes- uh, yesterday, JP. No, I mean just 'cause of the AirPods. Like, uh, uh, you're right. The AirPods are, are miserable. Yeah, like I couldn't hear out of my right one.
[laughs] I know. It's amazing with AirPods, like they're like a massive... Like there's like a hundred billion dollar product, but they still have so many flaws. It's actually, and it's actually my, uh, my computer.
My computer dies really fast sometimes. Oh, no. Um- We s- we got like, we got like- Audio...ten, ten more minutes or so. No, it's all good. I, I just plugged it back in, so we're all good to go now.
Um, do you remember where we were? We were talking about, uh, the capital for FOS. All right. So yeah. I'll, I'll just start, start with that. Cool. Okay. So you got...
After hooking up with Jason, yeah, you, you have capital, um, and that's gonna be the fuel to build the sort of the next, get to the next level for FOS. Yeah, 100%.
I mean, we got, like I said, we hired our first full-time employee in '19. At the time, the business was really focused on like we wanted to be kind of a hybrid, right? Like- Mm-hmm...I went...
Like what Axios was doing, like we kind of wanted to do, right? And like they're a little bit, obviously much different, right? Much bigger.
But like they had like original reporting and obviously had their newsletters, and we kinda wanted to do both. And like that was the plan.
In all of '19, we kinda built the team around that, and it, it worked, and it was good. And then we go into '20, the pandemic hits.
We're like, I mean, we went into '20, we're like, "Holy shit, like we're gonna crush this year." Like we were, like we were in a really good spot.
We'd already almost booked all of the revenue that we had booked for '19 in the first quarter. We'd just gotten a new office in like this co-working space.
[laughs] Like, I mean, it was like, offices, like what are those now? Um, and so I remember, and so the pandemic hit, and we're like, "Shit, what do we do?"
And so what happened was is like we were noticing like we were writing more content than ever.
And because at the time, like all this stuff around sports literally went into our lane because it was like there was no live sports.
So now everyone was talking about all the implications, all the, the, the sports being shut down, like all of these things, right? And, you know,
I, I said to the team like, "This is a huge moment for us from a coverage standpoint," not to like, like p-play down the pandemic at all. Like that's not something we would wanna do. But, uh, and so, but it was funny.
We were creating, writing more content than ever, but there was only one channel that was growing, and it was the newsletter.And I was like, "That's weird."
Like, I mean, we were still, like, growing the audience, but it was like, it was-- Again, we were kind of doing these middle-of-the-road analysis pieces that were like, again, kind of like an SBJ Lite. Yeah.
Nothing against them, but it just wasn't hitting with our audience.
And so we decided in the middle of last year to really pivot to like, all right, we're gonna cover this as, like, a Bloomberg would cover business, but for, like, from a sports standpoint.
We're gonna cover markets, we're gonna cover finances, we're gonna cover big-picture business stories. We're gonna reorient the business only on the, like, the newsletter side of things.
We, like, completely doubled down there. Obviously grew the, the audience pretty, uh, you know, we went from, like, twenty thousand to two hundred thousand subs that year.
And from there, it was just like, okay, we have this, and now let's have the opportunity to take advantage of some other areas. And so, you know, that was the really big focus.
We said, "Okay, like, there's really no one doing this."
And, you know, as anyone can probably say in the newsletter businesses, and you were probably one of them, but, like, ours is a little bit different, but our whole thing is around, like, instead of trying to, like, drive...
Like, we were basically pushing content to a place and then trying to drive people to that place. We're like, what if we just get them to subscribe, and we just drive the content to them, right? Yeah.
It's just, it's like literally, like, we-- It's one friction point versus, like, not only do we have to publish the story, it has to show up on Twitter, it has to c- get in their feed, they have to click it, they have to go to the site.
There's just so much friction in modern digital media, and people, I don't feel like they talk about that enough. Yeah.
And, you know, like, even though they, like, say we have all these platforms and everything else like this, there's just so much friction. And so for us, we're like, "Okay, let's double down on this."
Obviously, we were close with the Morning Brew guys and saw what they were doing, and we said, "All right, like, there's an opportunity for us to do that in and around- Mm-hmm.
-the sports space," and we just really focused on- But you decided, you decided to go... I think what's interesting, and it's the, the sort of the last chapter that I wanna get into, is the prosumer opportunity. Yeah.
Because I, I, I wrote about it, like, a few weeks ago. I mean, it's very attractive. I know. I was like, I should have trade- I should have trademarked that. I was like, "Hmm, prosumer. That's interesting.
Where have I heard that before?" I was like, "I'm gonna go TM." And that's been in use forever. You think you invented this? I'm gonna... I think I might have.
This has been around since college in two thousand and seventeen. People were using this stuff when you were in short pants getting laid. No, I know. I n- I need an, I need an NFT.
I need an NFT, and I need a royalty anytime people use that, right? That's how you do it now. [laughs] I didn't steal that from you. No way. I'll go back. I'll Google it. Um, anyway, e-everyone wants this.
Everyone wants the, the, the, the sort of the B2B. You get high rates. You can do lots of stuff with B2B. It's direct connection business. But then you, you want the heat of, like, consumer.
It's really difficult to run b-both businesses, like- Yeah. Not that you asked my advice, but my advice would've been like, "Stay in your lane." But you were like- [laughs] "No, no way." Explain that because that's...
It's, it's a big bet, I think, like, you know- Yeah. Yeah...to try to operate both a B2B property in, in Front Office and then these other newsletters. You've got the, The Association. Yep.
Um, that's my favorite, I gotta admit. [laughs] Sorry. Yeah. I mean, look, I honestly, it's like we've, we've seen, it's like, it's, it's an interesting take, so- But no, explain the other newsletters.
You, you've got, like- Yeah. So, yes...these consumer newsletters. Yes. Yes. So the consumer newsletter, Sports Section, The Association, and The Rundown, right?
And so again, that was like a bet on, like, do we h- do we have the ability to, to do that? And it was an early bet, and, and quite frankly, like, we learned a ton.
And honestly, like, you catch us at a good time where we're going forward, and it's really just gonna be Front Office Sports and Sports Section.
Because we learned with The Association that most people, the NBA newsletter is a great newsletter, but most people are consuming NBA news on Twitter or on social platforms, and it's not gonna be a scaled property, right?
Uh, long term, whereas, like, a general sports property may be. Okay. The Rundown is very similar. So you're, you're going, you're going with... So you're gonna have- Two.
Yeah, so we're gonna have Front Office Sports and Sports Section. So Sports Section is already north of fifty thousand subs, which is great, and Front Office Sports proper is up north of five hundred.
So it's like we launched the four. We launched two, right? Um, and, like, three, actually.
We launched the three, Sports Section, The Association, and The Rundown, and we, like, learned over the course of the last six to eight months, like, you know, more people are gonna consume in a general kind of news standpoint from a newsletter, just consumer, like, general sports, like broad sports.
It's a lot harder to grow a scaled, like, kind of like one sport thing. And for us, it's like we already have a s- like a general business.
Why don't we just do general, like, g-general business of sports, and now we have general sports, right? So, like, put those two together, we have the ability to really ramp up from there.
And so, um- So let, let me ask you this because, like- Yeah. I, I said, like, I like The Association. [laughs] That was my favorite one, and now you're telling me- Yeah. -it's, like, no longer- Yeah, I know.
I know...you're not gonna give it to me. That sucks. I know. Sorry. But, like, I, I... But I think that's m-my experience, it-- because, like, I'm not like...
I think it's because I've, you know, as you get older, you start to, like, you know, peel back on things and, like- Yeah. I'm like, there's too much sports. I, I'm just NFL and NBA at this point. Yep. Um- Yep. Yeah.
And that's 100%, right? It's also super, very local too, right? So I honestly am super bullish on, like, maybe if Axios is gonna do this or someone.
Like, I still think, like, local sports newsletters could work 100,000%. One, because the rates are insane, right?
Like, I was telling the people who were selling live Marlins games from an ad standpoint, and granted, it's live sports, I get it, but they were getting, like, $100 CPMs in local markets- Yeah...on, like, live.
And I'm like, "These are the Marlins. No offense to the Marlins, but, like, this is the lowest of the low- You can offend the Marlins...from a, like, qua- [laughs] quality standpoint," right? So, uh- They have no fans.
You're not gonna offend anyone. [laughs] Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So, so anyways, like, again, it's just like you have the ability to...
And we learned a lot, and, like, I think that's the biggest thing is we learned, like, hey, like, this isn't a bad thing. Like, and the content was great. The writers are great.
They're gonna be on the Sports Section newsletter too, and now we have a full team. And then we'd also, you know, candidly, we stretched ourselves probably a little bit too thin. We had shared resources.
We built all the tech behind it, and it all works across the platform, and it's good.
But, like, trying to sell one newsletter, and, like, still, newsletters from a sales process, as you know, in general and just everywhere, are still new.
Like, I remember speaking to someone at the end of last year who was telling me The New York Times had just sold their first direct newsletter-only deal. That was The New York freaking Times, right?
Like, and so it's like we were trying to sell four different properties. The messaging was a little bit off, and, like, this is really in the nitty-gritty of kind of like...
And then even looking, like-When you're looking at like customer acquisition stuff, honestly, like trying to do a, a sports betting newsletter up against like buying terms that like DraftKings and FanDu- Yeah...
like, there's no way you can compete. It's literally impossible, right? No.
No, there, there- And so we were like looking at all the metrics, and it was just like this, like general sports newsletter is way up here- I, I, I think the life-... like all these different things...
I think the lifetime value of like a betting person is like over $1,000. Like- Oh, for sure. Yeah.
And- I mean, most of these, most of these customers, most of these companies like DraftKings and FanDuel are paying $200 to $500 to acquire a user. Yeah.
Like m- up-upwards of that, and it's like- That's why it drives- I, I'm not, I don't have that c- I don't have that bankroll.
[chuckles] That's why it drives me nuts like watching football now because it's just gambling and stuff and, and I'm not like, I don't, I don't like the gambling stuff.
Well, so, and it's really interesting to see how that's gonna play out because at the same time in the UK, which had a much more mature sports betting market much sooner than the US, there's now a whole movement to not allow betting companies to n-only advertise, to not only advertise on like the, the, the logo or the, the jerseys of the soccer teams, but at games, like during the games.
And so it's like there's just a whole, yeah, there was just a whole thing that the, um- Really?...
I think the English Parliament is trying to pass something around the fact that like it's, it's either become there's, there's too many people with problem gambling, or they're worried about that, and they're actually thinking about it.
And I think the Premier League or someone said, again, I, we wrote about this the other day. Yeah, yeah.
But I think it's something like they're gonna lose out on $100 million a year in sponsorship, and that's the one thing I do worry about at the broader industry as we look at it, is like everyone is like, I wouldn't say overcorrecting, but sports betting is like the shiny thing.
And I just do worry that there is only a certain market for that, and like there's only gonna be a couple winners, like the DraftKings and the Fanduels of the world. They're gonna eat everyone else. Mm-hmm.
And because, and then after that, it's just like, I don't know, you know. It'll be interesting to see. Yeah.
I mean, I think a lot of people are putting a lot of eggs in this sports betting basket, and I get it because like there's, as I said, if like, if it's like something like $1,200, um,
LTV, like, you know, people are gonna spend a lot of money. And we're seeing- Yeah... you know, obviously Barstool got acquired by Penn, um, a large part of it. Um, and I think more of that will happen, uh, probably.
Be interesting to- Yeah... what will happen to s- see what happens to Bleacher. Um, but at the same time- Yeah, I mean, I think they're ripe. I think Yahoo is a big one, too. Yeah.
Like what's gonna happen with Yahoo Fantasy? I mean, I belie- honestly, I think Yahoo, it depend, like depending on what the new, I think it's Apollo that now owns them. I think Yah- Yeah...
they're, Apollo's gonna spin out Yahoo Fantasy and just sell it to, to a Bleacher Report or a FanDuel or a BetMGM or whoever because like that to me is like they already have the built-in user base, right?
But what you're saying is like this might be a little bit of a bubble. [chuckles] I'm just like- [clears throat]... I'm not, I'm not sold on it, and maybe it's because I live in New York, and I can't bet on it.
I, if I... I-it's funny because Arizona is now, which is completely random, is like a huge spot now and where I used to live, and maybe it's because I live in, in New York, and I can't mobily bet on it. Maybe it is.
But like, I, it just is, I, I don't know. Is there going to be mass adoption? I have no i- is there going to be the adoption that people think, right?
Like I think around football, yes, obviously, because it's one game a week. It's a lot easier to bet. It's just like fantasy football.
Fantasy football is much bigger than fantasy baseball, fantasy basketball, everything like that, and there'll be people who bet on it and everything like that. But I don't know.
I just feel like there's just a lot of people when you get outside of like the media space and people talking about it all the time, like nonstop, nonstop, there's just a lot of people who are risk-averse or who don't even have the cash to bet, and I just don't think that's ever going to change.
And so your market is only gonna be so much, right? Yeah. I mean, I think, I could be wrong, but I, I believe that, that we're sort of finding that out with, with legalized cannabis.
Like I think a lot of people, either people are happy with their dealers or, [chuckles] um, when it legalized, 'cause I believe California had like far fewer tax receipts than they had planned for, and, you know, the, the s- the, the cannabis stocks haven't shot, every stock's gone bonkers.
But like- [chuckles]... ha-haven't been like outperforming the market. I just wonder whether or not some... Look, it's normal. Like, you know, capitalism loves little mini bubbles, so why not?
Well, it's like, it's like anything, right? Like everyone talks about like even if you look at alcohol in Europe, right?
When it's like freely available to people who are under 18 or whatever it is, like there's less people who drink, um, you know, in term- not drink in general, but like overdrink. Yeah.
And like whereas the kids in, in, in the US when you can't drink until you're 21, it's like really cool, and there's like a kind of this like stigma to like underage drinking, and are you gonna get caught, and this, that, and the other.
And then once it's freely available, like you're drinking a lot less, right? And things like that. So a-a-again, could be a very similar thing. So- Yeah... I don't know.
I just- The, the Brits are a little bit of an outlier on that one. Yeah. [chuckles] Yeah, yeah, yeah. No offense, Brits. We'll, we'll, we'll, we'll see how it shakes out. I mean, look, I think it's a huge market.
I think it's gonna do a lot for the industry. I think it's gonna do a lot for women's sports too, which will be, which will be fascinating to kind of see.
But, and look, at large, it's, it's a great for our business too, right? Because they wanna advertise with our audience, and we have a really big relationship with DraftKings who's been a great partner of ours. But,
you know, it's, I just don't... Like how big can it actually get is the biggest question. And is it as big as we think? So let's talk about how big Front Office is. Like, so how, how big is the company now?
34 full-time employees. We rejiggered the, the company under FOS. So like we were thinking about like, do we put it under another brand when we were thinking about launching these other like consumer verticals?
'Cause the one thing that the, the bane, and this isn't a bad thing, but the bane of Front Office Sports is it's very difficult to make it something else, right?
Like what's nice about Axios is you can literally make Axios anything, Axios Pro, Rad Axios, AM Axios, China, whatever it is. With Morning Brew, same thing, Marketing Brew, EdTech Brew, like it works.
Front Office Sports, we could maybe like make it Front Office Betting, Front Office Sports Betting, but that really sounds businessy. And so we were like, "Well, what works?"
And we like rejiggered it under like, so FOS is kind of how we position the parent company now, and like it's Front Office Sports and sports section, and we're kind of positioning it and market it as like this first mass market daily sports newsletter network that we're building.
And we have 34 full-time employees. So FOS is like kind of like it's an endorsed brand.Yeah. So it's like FOS, and then you have, like, Front Office Sports is an FOS brand. Yeah. Sports section is an FOS brand.
Yeah, exactly. I mean- Yep. The corporate brand doesn't really matter. I think, like, you know- No, it, it doesn't, but it's just like when we were in market, it's like there is definitely a different- Yeah...
conversation specifically from an advertiser standpoint, or even when we're talking to anyone, it's like, you know, if you're positioning a, a business publication versus like a non-business or less business publication, like you're, you're gonna f-find different ways.
And so, um, that's why we positioned it as such, is kinda just to give us like one parent brand and like when we go to market, it's FOS and it depends on obviously who the brand we're talking to. Yeah.
But if we're going to like, uh, Invesco, perfect example, we're gonna go to them as F-FOS because not only do they want a business audience and like the, obviously, the audience across the board is very similar, but like they're a big partner of the NCAA.
Like doesn't... Ton... Makes a ton of, like sense to advertise with us on both properties. And sometimes we have people on one property and one on the other, or both properties. It just depends. But yeah. Okay.
Thirty-four people. What are you gonna do on revenue? Let me guess. Uh. What are you, like eight million? Close to, close to five. I wish eight million. That'd be nice. Five? It should be eight. Yeah, I know.
You, you sound like my investors. Come on. Jason. You're all kept it, but I know it. Are you listening? [laughs] Oh, yeah, he, he will.
Um, yeah, so probably, probably close to five this year, uh, and then I think we're f- we're, we're looking at north of, uh, ten to twelve probably next year if we do it again.
Are you gonna be up from two thousand and nineteen? Oh, yeah. For sure. All right. For sure. Two thousand and nineteen.
We don't do, we don't do year on year comps here at the Rebooting because two thousand and twenty- Yes... was- I mean, we're, we're gonna be up four hundred percent over two hund- uh, twenty twenty, right?
[laughs] Five hundred percent. Everyone loves the year over year comps these days. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. No. Um, yeah, a hundred... I mean, look, like we did, what was it?
Like eight hundred thousand in twenty nineteen or something like that, right? Yeah. So it's definitely, uh, it's definitely grown a ton. So- But it's just, it is really interesting, so. No.
So the final thing and then, 'cause I don't wanna...
I, I used to say y- I used to say I'd, I would try to keep the podcast to a half hour because that was like the length of a commute, but nobody commutes, so it doesn't matter. So exactly.
But like the last thing I wanted to talk to you a little, just, just very briefly about is, is managing and leading without having really any experience outside of being like a server in a restaurant as an even [laughs] employee.
That's a big learning curve. Yeah. Uh, yes, it is extremely difficult. Also, it's extremely difficult when you're younger than most of the people too. Like, I'm still twenty-six- Yeah... right?
Going on twenty-seven in a month. Uh, so it's been interesting, right? So, and this is one of the things that I've been trying to work on a lot more, and I'm definitely not perfect at it at all.
And I think there's gonna be si- but not...
So it's just I'm in this weird spot, right, where we obviously have investors and a board, so I'm managing up there, and then I'm also managing down to the team, and like it just takes a completely different mindset, messaging points, how you're talking to them, what you're doing, what it looks like.
And the one thing too is that, you know, it is difficult and whether it's a stigma or not, but like it is kind of difficult sometimes because I literally did everything in this business. Like, that's the crazy thing.
Like I ran social. Mm-hmm. I used to write. I know what works. I've sold everything, like literally done it all.
And so, you know, when we were first starting and we were first hiring employees, like I was having one-to-one, obviously, one-to-one connections with- Yeah...
maybe more junior level people, and like I just brought a different energy and passion and kind of... And then maybe it turned people off, right? And like things like that.
But like some of the biggest and most important things that we've done is, honestly, we hired this, uh, a head of people, Shira, um, probably like six months ago, I think now, eight months ago. Huge, huge.
She started putting in processes and lattice and reviews and like everything, and it's just made a h- major difference, right? And then we started to build out the exec team underneath us, right?
So we have a head of marketing, a head of growth, and a head... We're looking for a head of brand partnerships. Uh, we have like, you know, an executive editor now.
And so instead of now interfacing with the entire team all the time, I still interface with people gener- like every once in a while or Slack or in conversations. Yeah. But I'm only interfacing with them.
And so it's just been like- There's a, there's a gigantic- I know. It's, it's just-... difference between like a fifteen-person company and a thirty-person. Like it's just- Oh, massive...
and I really think that's the- It's, it's really massive... and you can really easily become a bottleneck, and even without like intending, you can end up...
You don't perceive that you're being a micromanager, but because if you do anything, you have a particular view on things, and like then you have people doing it, but you're like, "But I want you to do it like I did it."
Yeah. No.
I mean, look, and that's one of the biggest things because like I told you, I did everything, and so like to me it's like, oh, like it took me for so long to like let go of the day-to-day keys of social media, right?
Yeah. Like it like way longer than it probably should have just because I'm like, "Well, I know this, and I can do it, and I don't even have to worry about telling anyone or getting approval. Like I'll just do it."
And so yeah, I mean, I think I've learned that, uh, you have to trust people. You have to spend a lot of time, and that's the other thing too is like you...
It, it's, it's almost like measuring twice and cutting once with people too is like, that's the old adage. Like you have to really train people and g- have them up to speed and like set...
Like we have an employee handbook now, so everyone understands like what we do. We have an editorial playbook. I know you talk about recipes all the time- Yeah... right?
Like, and it's like all of these things because like you just don't scale, and granted I'll work as long as I need to to make this thing happen, but- You're twenty-seven... that's the one thing. Yeah.
What else do I have to fucking do? [laughs] I'm gonna go home and sit next to my fucking plants and talk to my plants. Like what else, what else am I gonna do? [laughs] That's what I always tell people.
No, but you've got so many business ideas, so like, you know, there, there- Oh, I do. So I'm not gonna- Vasectomies. I'm telling you, that's, that's the next one. Oh, Jesus. That's the next one. That's the next one.
[laughs] I'm telling you, that is the biggest... Um, yeah, this is not- I didn't, I didn't know this one.... just for Rebooting. Have we discussed this one? Oh, yeah. No, it's, it's a big one. I'm telling you.
I thought you were into cutting hair, not cutting that. Oh, yeah, both. Barbers and that.
Like I'm telling you, like I won't put them together, but I believe in the next three to five years, you can quote me on this, and we can go review it in three to five years, that like birth control will be flipped, and it'll be more on the men than it will be on the women.
Oh, right. We did discuss this. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. No, it makes sense. So again, that's, that's an interesting thing. But yeah, look, I mean- Yeah, that's, that's a classic mall brand. Yeah. Snips. Perfect. Snips.
Literally. Snips? Come on. Yeah. It's like perfect, right? What's, uh- Like honestly, I don't know, but... Lair Hippo would invest in thatYeah, maybe. I, I mean- They, they, they're- Someone would...
they're in that, they're in on that, like, uh, hip tattoo place, whatever. Or what's... Not tattoo. The, the, the piercing place. Uh, Claire's? It's in New York City. That's the only piercing place I know.
I don't know any other piercing place. No, no, no, no, no. They... studs. It, it's, they, they've got one- Oh, studs... like in, in Soho. Yeah, there you go.
It's like, you know, the, the, you know, the, all the research. It's like, oh, the average, like, millennial and Gen Z has, like, you know, 11 piercings.
Um- I don't even know where you pierce 11 parts of your body, but- I don't know... that's neither here nor there. So- Like, and, you know, it used to be you go to Piercing Pagoda, and it's, like, kind of terrible. Yeah.
I don't know. Yeah, I don't know. But anyways, so yeah, so that's, like, that's one of the things that I think are long-term.
But y- the, the leadership has been so d- And look, I'm not perfect at it at all, and I'm trying to get better at it- Yeah... every single day. But it's just like I said, it's like,
it's, it's part letting go, and it's part, like, making sure you trust the people and, like, hire...
'Cause my biggest thing is, like, the, the b- the best employees that we've ever had, and probably the best employees anyone's ever had, and why Shira is, like, a great employee and what's amazing is, like, her and I had a conversation.
She already knew more about me than I really knew about me, which was cool, uh, when I first interviewed her.
But she, like, laid out this whole thing, and she called it Shira's Dirty 30, which was, like, her first 30 days. And what, what happened was when we hired her, she literally did exactly what she said.
And I think that's the one thing that, like, you have to figure out is, and especially from a startup standpoint, and this is, like, something we've definitely learned specifically on the sales side of things, is that...
And I actually had a CEO, uh, of one of our partner companies, and he mentioned this to me, and I've really-- this has really sat with me a lot,
is that you should look at everyone in your interview process, depending on where they come from, and ask them, like, straight up, "Are you good, or is the brand you work for good?"
And, like, there's a huge difference between- Yeah... being good and the brand you work for being good, right?
Like, I talked to someone, um, you know, in an interview with, like, and they are working at, like, CVS, and he's like, "Look, I'll be honest with you. A dog with a piece of paper in his mouth can sell CVS," right?
Like, it's, like, easy, right? But it's not easy to sell FOS. And, like, that's a real thing, and, like, I think that's one thing that when you're- Yeah...
talking about, like, startup employees and everything like that, it's like, it's great to have people who have pedigree on their resume, but oftentimes that pedigree comes with a lot of different support elements that you literally- Yeah...
just do not have.
And, like, yeah, once you start to scale, it makes a lot of sense, but, like, that's where, you know, I think we missed on a few hires is we hired people based on, like, not, like, entirely based on pedigree, but, like, it was something that was appealing.
Like, oh- Yeah... they're the CRO of X. I, I know. Or, oh, like, their background is this. And it's like- Some, some, some of my- It's crazy...
biggest mistakes, and it wasn't, like, I d- And when I say mistakes, I don't mean the, the person, because it's always, it's two ways because, like, you're putting a person- Yeah... in a bad, in a bad framework, right?
I mean, you see it all the time in, like, in sports, in NFL. Like, I mean, you know, Sam Darnold's actually [laughs] he's actually looks like- A good quarterback... he wants to be good. He's a pretty good quarterback.
It's like this guy can do stuff. There's a reason he was drafted number one. But the context he was put in was the [laughs] New York Jets. Um- Correct...
and some quarterbacks can, you know, they can light it up no matter what. But some people- Yep... need to be in a system, and d- it's fine. It's not, you know, I think most people- No... need to be in a system.
And, and when you m-
Some people can just, like, adapt, but there's a lot of people, and particularly when you get blinded by some, some big brand name, and you're like, "Ooh, we hired someone from The Guardian," or however it was, like- Yeah.
Yeah. 100%. And it's just like, again, like you mentioned, it's like, and, like, we're just so cognizant of that now. And again, obviously we're growing.
The profile is getting to a place where it's definitely helpful, but, like, still, like, you, there's-- Our sales team makes their own decks.
Like, there's places that, like, they're just given decks and told to go sell, right? Like, we have to do different things, and that's just, like, the nature of the beast. But now it's on us.
If, if we make a mistake hiring, it's because we, we- Yeah... put someone in the wrong position, not that they are the wrong person, is we put someone in the wrong position. Yeah.
But that's why I think it's, like, very... And I think it's, it's really particularly hard when it's, um, a tighter labor market, and it's, it's very- Yep...
competitive for talent, is, is being brutally honest with people and doing the kind of self-scouting and self-assessment.
I mean, as I said, like, I think, like, you're incredibly self-aware, so you, you'll, you'll be able to do that.
But I think sometimes the tendency can be to go into sales mode when you're, you're, you're trying to sell the person on this thing.
But, like, you gotta be-- You can't, like, you know, bad talk, [laughs] talk down the opportunity.
But you gotta be really, um, honest, I, I feel like, about, you know, here, here are the, you know, great things about it. Here are some of the things that are, that are, that are challenging. And- Yeah...
and I think people appreciate that because you're really just looking for... Both sides want a good fit. Nobody wants someone who's unhappy, and people don't wanna be unhappy. 100%. Yeah.
It's literally the worst thing possible to put someone, to put a square peg in a round hole. Like, it's literally the worst thing possible.
It's the worst thing for you because now you have to, like, now that person is onboarded for 90 days, and then maybe you have to off-board them because it wasn't a good fit, and now you have to find someone else, and now you're a quarter behind.
Like, it's really measuring twice and cutting once when it comes to a lot of- Yeah... these people, specifically at our level, because it just...
And as you know, like, media, as much as everyone wants to talk about tech and this and that and this and that and fucking whatever, like, it's all about the people.
It literally is all about the people that I've learned, and that's honestly been the best thing just from my side of things when, like, we talk about the managing the restaurant and serving and stuff like that, 'cause all I did was, like, all I was was around people all the time.
Like, and it was the most meaningful thing, and I think the big thing too, and I, I've, I've told people this too, is that
what happened was is my mom and my dad, I literally didn't, I didn't grow up with, like, cable TV or anything like that. I didn't have a phone until I was a sophomore in high school or whatever it was.
But I would always go with my mom and my dad and my family, my two sisters, to a conference in, like, Tucson, Arizona, which is a little bit south of Phoenix.
And I was, like, three, four, five years old, and my dad would literally just, like, walk me out to the conference floor and just make me talk to people.
And I remember, like, being three, four, five years old, like, talking to people. Not like, "Oh," like, "what's he saying?" Or like, "What, how old is he?" Like, no, I was, like, straight up talking to people.
And I think what happened is, like, now at, at 26, I've always found that myself personally gets along much better with older people because I've just been doing that for so long. I never realized it.
We, we had very, we had very different childhoods. [laughs] That's my takeaway. But that's why we're very different people. Like, uh- Exactly...
my parents just told me to go in the backyard and amuse myself, play by myself, so, like, I developed a, a, an imagination [laughs] very quickly because I had to just, like, be out in the backyard playing by myself.
Yeah. Yeah. Um, I, we gotta leave it there. This has been awesome. It's been a good, uh, way to kick off this, this podcast. Um, thanks for being a sport about it. Tell, tell Jason to send over the paperwork.
I only do DocuSign, so- [laughs]... there's not gonna be- I'll make sure he sends it to your assistant. I've heard the blue balloons blowing up. [laughs] Yeah, exactly.
A Ben Thompson feature, like, I mean, um, the advertisers are knocking down the door. Yeah, exactly. Um, I only do, I only do deep partnerships, as you know. Um- Got it. Got it. Yeah. But thanks so much.
I really appreciate it. Of course. Um, and, uh, we'll be back next week with a new episode. [outro music]