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[upbeat music] Hey friend, it's David Nebinsky, the community lead at the Chief of Staff Network.

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We help chiefs of staff through the three Cs: cohorts, curriculum and community via Slack with over nine hundred people in it. You can learn more about our membership, events and courses at chiefofstaff.network.

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There, you can see our upcoming Chief of Staff Connect conferences, with the first one in New York in October and London in November.

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This episode of the Chief of Staff Podcast was recorded during a podcast dinner event in New York City, where multiple people gathered to discuss experiences, stories and insights on scaling people and process.

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And then we ate a meal together. It was a lot of fun. So if you're a chief of staff that is working on scaling or thinking about scaling, this episode is for you. So excited for you to level up as a chief of staff.

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Here we go. Xander first. Okay. Welcome to the Chief of Staff Podcast. Um, and we're here to talk about scaling process and people.

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Maybe sometimes that's the same thing or sometimes that's separate or independent, but we're here to chat about it. We'll figure it out. Um, Xander, uh,

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is there an example of a situation or experience that you recently scaled, uh, people in your organization or a process that comes to mind? Yeah. Thanks, David. Um, sure thing.

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So working at Leapsome, it's a HR tech platform, and basically I was, uh, chief of staff to the head of sales, and we had a huge Series A of sixty million, and, uh- Ooh. [laughs]...

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so we went on a rocket ship, which was very exciting. But suddenly our, our sales organization, uh, scaled from fifteen people to ninety.

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So, um, I came in around that time, which was very exciting, but we had to find, I would say that was the solution and operating model.

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So how we're gonna operate, including communication, what is our single source of truth, um, our performance, yeah, that, that was all settled, et cetera. So how we manage the people.

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However, like really thinking through how our ideas would be adopted and if we would, like, do changes or software changes in the sales org, how would people adopt that?

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Was a huge challenge, both in the mindset of the people, uh, so also in the leaders. Like, hey, first it was leading a fifteen-person team, and suddenly it's ninety people. Mm.

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Um, so that was a, yeah, big challenge, but we managed in the end, so. I wonder in your example, how did you change or adjust the recruitment process to recruit up to ninety people and then the onboarding process, or...

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And did you have the timeframe for this? Yeah, that's a very good question. I would say I was the first batch of that mass hiring, uh, so to say. We... Yeah, so we, we also expanded to, uh, New York.

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So we're a Berlin-based company, and we also expanded to New York, so we ga-gave authority to kind of the VPs to actually start hiring more and more.

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Um, and they basically focused half of their time, like, get- yeah, doing interviews also with the frontline management, doing the first interviews and getting people in, and yeah, scaling rapidly in that way.

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In terms of onboarding, [chuckles] yeah, I don't wanna pitch for our own solution, but our-- we do actually also onboarding, so that was all streamlined.

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So when you set it, you forget it because it automatically triggers and fires off, so that helped a lot.

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Something that I have a similar experience, um, something that I scaled in my previous roles, and one challenge, uh, that we had was when you have a small team in a location and you suddenly scale, if you have especially a scaling strategy outside of that location, like,

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um, having the need to define a location strategy and rapidly, um- Yeah... we solved for it, but that, that was a challenge. Yeah. At least. And how did you tackle it? May, may I return the question?

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I, I'm cur- [laughs] Yeah, I'm curious. [laughs] Um, I think we worked in iterations.

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Uh, we put together the first iteration based on what we've seen in other departments, the learning from the other leaders, and then we refined on it, uh, when we had, like, levers. We...

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Like continuous assessment, do we have the teams in the right place next to the right teams? Do we have the right headcount, the right skill set? Mm-hmm.

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And we optimized on going through, I don't know, six months at least, the location strategy. Yeah. Thank you. Hi, my name is Puneet. I'm chief of staff at Grow.

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Uh, I'm just touching base on the point that Xander just mentioned about hiring. Um, I think, s- um, and overall, if I would see scaling, I think scaling is messy but equally exciting.

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Um, especially if we talk in term of people, I think, um, the four factors that contribute majorly is about on the hiring and the impact that has on the hiring, culture that we follow through the internal and external hiring, um, and, and the people doing the right leadership development and that follows to the right, uh, cross-functional collaborations that help us involve into the people and everything, which goes back to what you just mentioned, Xander.

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Because if we have the l- uh, power or, uh, access to the different functions within the same organization, there is-- the, the processes can be enhanced much more better to what they are currently.

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Um, but in terms of hiring, uh, I would just touch base, like what you just mentioned, when you are just fifty, when you are hundred, when you're one fifty, and then when you triple the size in some few years, things might not work what they-- what it used to work when you were just fifty.

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So the continuous improvement comes into the picture along with how you wanna scale all that people, uh, and how do you leverage the processes that gonna scale eventually.

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I actually had a question for Xander on the sales part, just because, you know, when you have a small group of salespeopleAnd they have a very coherent, like, tight narrative and script for the pitch of a product. Yeah.

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And then you you know multiply that sales team by 4, 5x. Like there starts to be added elements of chaos into that equation.

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And so if you think of, you know, a sales pitch being anywhere from chaotic to controlled, like, how did you navigate where on that spectrum the team as a whole landed with 90 people?

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Like, was there freedom for different sales reps to kind of- Mm... be creative, or was it much more tightly scripted, and how did- Yeah... how did you make that decision? Yeah. Yeah.

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Uh, in all honesty, a bit trial and error, but at the same time I think w- how we believed how we should run it is creating the gu- or the right, uh, guardrails. So what we did, for example, we created the...

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Specifically for sales, we created the master pitch deck with 130 slides with all the tools you would need, and we don't want people to design their own slides.

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And like, an account executive, like, rather spends time to, like, talk to clients or prospects, for example. So that was a deliberate choice that we would like prescribe it.

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However, we do also support people if they would like to tweak it, for example. If they would like to take that slide and, like, change it and make it more specific for, for that prospect.

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So I think for us it was, like, a discussion on, okay, let, do we let it go? And that happened. And then also your Google Drive is a mess at some point.

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[laughs] Like, hey, there's pitch deck A, and pitch deck A from Charlotte and et cetera.

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Um, but at some point we streamlined and together with marketing and product marketing we said, "Okay, this is the framework, and now you don't need to think of it."

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Um, and also that, yeah, yielded higher results in our, like, win rates, et cetera. And I think that is where we can, um, interrelate the tools and the automation. When we say automation, sometimes we get...

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It's, it's a scary word because we think it's so heavy, it's related to technology. But I think automation can be as simple as what you just mentioned.

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You know, maybe using your Word document in a shared drive where everybody can cooperate and incorporate their inputs while you do not wait from 100 people coming to you, and then you end up managing the logistic of putting that all together.

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I think it could be as simple. So at the processes, if we have to scale, it could v- it can start at a very small level and one step at a time, and then there is no end to it. Yeah.

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I think a, a funny part, [laughs] very specific, in Google Drive, limiting access rights. I think that helps. Okay. [laughs] Yeah, honestly. Make people viewer, and that's a huge solution, a small one for scaling.

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Does anybody else have a, an example or an experience or thoughts on this topic that they wanna share? I'll do a very quick intro.

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So my name's Rachel, I work for a company called Case, and we do, uh, alter- we're an alternative, um, investment platform for financial advisors in the US. And my example, little bit different.

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Location kind of comes into play. We have a pretty large offshore component as part of our operations, and I joined the company around 10 months ago, and in that time, that has doubled.

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So our US kind of base of employees hasn't grown that fast, but our offshore base has grown very, very significantly.

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And I think there are definitely some unique challenges that come with having an offshore team, definitely on process.

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So I kinda came in and there were lots of different teams doing lots of different things, so really centralizing and standardizing the way that teams work together while allowing for some flexibility for different teams.

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But really, every team having that playbook on how best to work with that offshore team and giving them toolkits in order to be able to manage that relationship effectively was one thing that we did.

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And we also actually went there, and we took five people from the US, and we've had this relationship for four years. No one's ever been over there.

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Um, it was smaller beforehand, but there was a bit of back and forth around the value of taking one or five people, for example, over there.

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We decided on five because we wanted to take someone from a different cut of the business across all of the key areas, and I was the one that had to prove ROI on it, right? [laughs] Yeah. So it was a really...

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I went in ready to take my notes and make sure that we had ROI, but it was a really great kinda business case to work through of measuring the impact of a trip, right? Which was, I think, coming out of it,

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culture building or relationship building. How do you measure that, right? And for us, it came down to a couple of things.

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It came down to truly just relationship building, building trust so that in meetings, people have their videos on now. They actually speak now. They give ideas now.

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Whereas before, it was much more this task giver and task doer relationship. So it was one thing that really came out of it. And the second biggest thing was actually realizing what more that offshore team could do.

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'Cause I think it's very easy to think offshore model, outsource manual processes, or you kinda menial repetitive tasks or that kind of preconceived notion of what an offshore team is.

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But spending time with them, I was looking at about 70 people sitting at their desks understanding what they're working on.

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They're building JavaScript tools to automate all of these processes, and they're thinking of new ways of doing things, but they just don't always... or they hadn't felt comfortable talking about them.

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And so we've actually completely changed the way that we're thinking about offshoring as a strategy from just outsource everything until it's automated to how do we give them more valuable work?

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How do we get them to do the automation and to help us scale? It actually sounds like you've implemented, like, a cultural shift.

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And so thinking, like-To the future, have you thought about how to scale or continue to uphold this, like, culture change of being much more collaborative, integrated with your offshore partners?

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And, like, does that require sending five people to go visit them every year? Like, like what, what do you think will help kind of carry that forward? Great question.

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I think we definitely wanna send someone e-every year. [chuckles] I don't... Depending on budget, so I don't know if it's five every year, but definitely having at least an annual touchpoint of someone in person.

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Aside from that, we've put in a lot more strategic sessions where, two things.

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We're including them as parts of our teams as much as a US team member would be, so they're hearing all of our company OKRs, they're hearing about all of our strategic initiatives.

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They're as much as, you know, part of the team as we can have them to be. There are obviously some things where you're working with an outsourced company, there has to be a degree there.

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But as much as we can, transparency and involvement there.

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Um, and then I think from a strategic level particularly, we've got a team leadership structure over there, um, making sure we've got those higher level strategic sessions where, where they're involved and can bring their ideas to the table in a small-smaller format, and really feel like they are part of an extended leadership team, I think is really important to...

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They're ultimately the people that drive the culture there, really.

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Um, bottom up as well, but having that really strong, engaged, um, loyal leadership structure is really, really important for us, so we spend a lot of time thinking about developing leadership over there as well.

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And I've been a candidate of offshore all my life. I've worked in India for companies in US. Mm-hmm.

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And I've worked, like I w- I have felt nothing but the culture and the diversification that we can brought into this by our location strategy and the acceleration that we can do on hiring and the processes is, is quite achievable.

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Mm-hmm. Um, India is becoming one of the hub for global capability centers all this while. Yeah.

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And I remember like, um, um, when I started there were few, only the big fours would come and all, but now every company I see- [chuckles]... is in India, and they are actually not doing the real core business in India.

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It's all about the business support services that you're getting from the different location to accelerate those services. Yeah.

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And I agree, we do have leadership visit coming in, and we travel, so that's how the culture diversify. [chuckles] And the last thing I'll mention is fun. Um, we had a karaoke party.

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For those of you that don't know- Lovely... yeah, the Philippines is obsessed with karaoke. Mm. Every birthday- I would say... every event, every weekend they're doing karaoke. Yeah.

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And so we threw an office karaoke party at 3:00 AM. Um, and yeah, and they're still talking about it, and they said no client had ever hosted an engagement activity when they'd come and visited.

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Um, so that's a pretty big thing.

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Um, I th- I was pretty proud of that, that we weren't just there to check in on regulation and process, but we actually were there to make sure they had a bit of fun and- And connections...

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bring a bit of culture and connection. Yeah. Yeah. Great. Yeah. On the topic of culture, I would have a question. Is, like you have scaling, upscaling, but you have also downscaling.

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How do you deal with when you downscale, for example, to maintain the culture? Because it's gets, yeah, it gets really stressed and it gets really tense. I would be curious if anyone has experience here.

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I, I think when we talk culture, I think first we see in the way where this firm is leading to and where we are coming from. Mm.

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And I'm not talking about the culture that we have posters on the wall, because we all codify our own values of each firm, and how we live up to those values is very important, and that cannot be imbibed in you just in a day or a year.

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I think anyone who has been a part of that firm comes to a meeting, follows that culture, which is very important.

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I would say like I was in a firm called Rio Tinto prior to this organization, it was a global mining organization, and we would follow the safety procedures for anything.

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Even if I'm sitting in podcast here, I would first talk about the safety measure because that's the culture we follow.

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Even if it's a one-on-one, we will first share a safety share if anybody would like to sa-share it, and that's the culture. So I think it comes from everybody who's part of it.

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Sometime it get lost, especially because if it is not followed religiously in terms of how it is coming from the top management to the bottom level.

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And the middle management plays a very, very critical role to follow that culture because they are kind of in combination between the communication of the top management and the bottom management.

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But it gets lost, you know. It, it definitely gets lost, but there has to be steps and process that we need to implement that it gets, it doesn't fade away over the time. But we follow it religiously wherever we go.

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I think that is very important too when we talk about culture.

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I really like your question because, um, I think that the key thing when, that people miss when they're going through a RIF, um, or, or downscaling as you say, um, is the, like morale impact afterwards. Mm. And so

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I think if you're downscaling people, you have to upscale the culture. Mm. And like the attention that that gives. Yeah.

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So I, in my last firm, which was a prop tech startup, we went from 150 employees to 300 employees in about five months, and then the next month we went back to 150. And so [chuckles]

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it was like a roller coaster ride, and it could've been a really, really tough transition. I think the thoughtfulness that went into, first of all, like

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identifying the culture carriers and ensuring that they remained afterwards, because that was crucial to like the long-term success of the firm.

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That thoughtfulness you don't see all the time, because I think people will just say like, "Well, we'll cut the low performers. We'll cut, you know- Yeah...

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the less expensive or the most expensive talent," depending on what you're solving for.

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But-That's such a huge, like, surgery on a company, and to think about, like, the aftercare or the post-operation treatment that you need in the sense to, like, double down on culture almost.

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Um, people often get that wrong. And they do. And I remember this conversation which I was having with someone, and I'm not talking about a low performer, a top performer.

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And when I was talking to that person, and she told me that, "If, if I leave tomorrow, I don't think so there would be any miss or anything that would happen to this company." I was like, "Why would you say that?"

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And she's like, "I just don't feel more valued in everything that I do." And she's top performer. She's not someone who's doing wrong job.

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And also, after that conversation, I went back to our chief people officer, and I was like, "We do all surveys annually, engagement surveys and stuff like that."

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I'm like, "Is it a time we need to do a disengagement survey? How do we come to know who's not engaged with our values or who's not being-- feeling valued in the firm?" So the culture is actually a lot that speaks.

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It's-- I would say it's an invi-invisible operating system of any firm and has to be followed. Um, does anybody wanna... Um, I'm Yasi. Um, I'm at Varuna, which is an insurance agency management software.

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We are at a very interesting stage of our growth where we have a customer base, but we have a new CE-CE-CEO who's taken over the company. So a lot of what we're doing is new. We're rebuilding the product.

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We-- I mean, he's hired me, he's hired a bunch of, um, other teammates. And as part of that, we are reevaluating people, processes, and our tech stack, um, which is a huge part of the, the processes.

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And the big question is: How do we make these decisions so they can scale with us? Like, we can make the decision for today, but how can we make sure this scales with our customers, this scales with our team?

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And I find this particularly difficult because there are so many great tools in the market today and changing every single day. AI changes every single day.

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So more of a question for the group, um, have any of you experienced something like this, and what is your advice? I think,

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uh, we recognize it, so because there are so many great tools and so many promises and claims, et cetera. I think what, what helped us is thinking about must-have, should have, and nice to have.

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I think that, that's, that prior-- that prioritizes your, your efforts as well, especially if t- if you talk about tooling. Is this actually a must-have or should we push this out? Or is this a should have?

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And because I think lots of people, including myself, get enthusiastic when I get an outbound or, you know, I talk to someone here, it's like, "Oh, we use this software."

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But you also need to kind of protect the core of must-haves, because otherwise you keep doing change management the whole time over and over.

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So I think keeping that core of tooling or of processes, like, small- Mm-hmm...

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instead of like, like knowing the, what the core is, I think that's essential and what is actually additional catch or additional like fu- yeah, funky or fuzzy thing. He uses concepts that I really like.

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It's, you know, deciding whether a decision is a one-way door or a two-way door.

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So essentially, like, if you're thinking about changing a process or a team org or, you know, taking on a new vendor as part of your tech stack, I think the, the question we always ask is, "Is this a decision that we can, like, undo quickly if it turns out to be the wrong thing?

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And if so, then, like, let's not spend too much time overthinking it. Let's walk through the door, and we always have the opportunity or the option to go back.

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Or is this a one-way door where the cost to walk through is so significant because there's a huge onboarding or there's, like, a ton of data that needs to be, um, u-uploaded or whatever it is that, like, makes the process so expensive that you have to be really, really considerate and deliberate in making that choice."

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And so that helps a lot because a lot of the technology, we see all these tools, like, we can demo them, we can pilot them, we can sign on for a six months or a nine-month trial and see how that goes.

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It's really only when you start to, like, expose your IP and other sensitive information to those vendors where it's like, now it's costly and now we have to decide is it worth onboarding somebody and, you know, retraining the whole team in this process, which is very much a one-way door, at least for a certain period of time, so.

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What I would add is having a clearly defined [object thuds]

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oops, strategy, um, for one year or two year ahead with clear aspiration, clear objectives that you can, like, think big, blue sky thinking that helps you, like, almost validate process, tools.

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In a best case scenario, in an ideal world, would this validate, will this fit our end vision or our ambitions? On the must-have, clearly this is a must-listen podcast episode.

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[laughing] And we're at a must-attend, must-have event. Uh, I just feel like I had to, to say the quiet part out loud. Um, anyways, now back to the better insights from you all.

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So this is something I talk about a lot in my day-to-day job, um, dealing with a lot of tooling, vendor evaluations, decision-making. Um, and we don't really have a framework for decision-making.

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Sounds like you do, um, [laughs] Shirley, which is awesome.

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Um, we don't have any standards of how we make decisions, evaluate vendors, or then move through with im- with an implementation if we decide on acquiring a new vendor or switching from one vendor to another.

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So that's something I'm actively working on at the moment, is kind of a higher level strategic business decision-making framework.

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Um, and then kind of following from that, more of a frame for business cases, vendor evaluations, so that, you know, not that every single decision has to be made and documented the exact same way, but we have a general guiding principle of how we make decisions, and that's kinda aligned across the organization.When it comes to new vendors or switching vendors,

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when I'm thinking about... I always go back to the problem to be solved, right? It's like, what is the problem we're trying to solve for, or what is the growth objective we're trying to achieve here?

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I'll always try and look for existing tools first. Um, I'm very cost-sensitive in my role, so I'll always look at, like, what tools do we have in our arsenal today? Um, can they solve that problem, or can they achieve

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what I'm looking to achieve? Um, and I think about that, not just can they achieve it now, but can they achieve it in five years when we're five exercise?

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So I, I do try and balance, like, the short term of is it a quick win, but is this gonna trip us up in five years?

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Um, so there's an example we're working through at the moment where we did a, a quick hack solution in one tool, but we're reaching problems and limitations, so I think it's also important, this sunk cost idea of, like, we don't wanna move because we've spent money or we've trained everyone or we've-- it's been someone's full-time job to do that.

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Like, you've gotta know and have the framework in place so that when you know that it's not gonna serve that purpose long term, you're able to make a decision and move on, and to not be tied to that sunk cost in an emotional way.

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Um, that would be [laughs] something I've learnt.

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I have a fun story that's related to this idea of, like, switching vendors and making decisions about, like, big line item expenses, which is-- So I work, so I work for D. E.

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Shaw, um, and we're a very large, uh, investment alternatives platform. We're about three thousand employees and, you know, every few years we do, like, a really deep budget review with the COO department. And so

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there's this, like, looming threat hanging over you that, you know, if you sign up for a s- a, a new agreement with some software vendor that, like, somewhere in the next few years you will be asked to justify, like, the expense and outlay.

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And, um,

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I felt like the team was unprepared in a lot of these instances to kind of, like, put forth the case, and so we've started developing, like, really basic frameworks for, like, if you're putting forth a proposal for a new vendor or resigning a, an agreement or even, like, switching or expanding scope, like, here are, like, the bas- four basic questions you have to answer.

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And even if it's not, like, a pretty proposal or memo, at least you get the team thinking about it in this new manner. And so that slowly starts to take on and gather some momentum.

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But, um, it's so interesting to think about how these costs can just, like, sneakily accumulate over time, and you start scaling your expense line item in a way that you didn't want to.

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It's just, uh, it's quite funny if it doesn't stay in check, like, the whole way there. It just is very scary. I am the COO department, so [laughs] yeah, I'm that girl.

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Um, I totally agree, and, like, especially as you're growing, right? You think an expense might be, all right, we're gonna put on ten users first, right?

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And then the company grows and it grows and it grows and it grows, and all of a sudden it's 10x the price. Um,

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we have tool sprawl and I think-- I was gonna mention AI and how people are feeling about AI and question to the group.

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Not only are there pure, what I would say is more pure play AI tools, you know, ChatGPT interface, those kind of things, but it feels like every single tool that we use now wants to sell us AI.

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Um, sometimes it's free additional features, most of the time it's not.

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Um, and so, you know, whether we're talking about Salesforce, which we use for sales and service, or whether it's Airtable, which we use for operations, whether it's our contract management system, um, the list is really, really endless.

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But we're working through at the moment how do we, both from a corporation perspective, AI has so many different facets, facets in the business, but we think about it, if I was to take kinda two lenses, one is more around the products we build for our clients, and one is more around how we use AI internally.

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Um, and on the internal front, something I'm thinking about a lot at the moment is AI tooling and where each of these fit, um, and will fit in the future because it's changing a lot.

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So question to the group if anyone's having similar challenges or has an example. I, I do recognize it. I was re-recently in a, I don't know, a community and we were discussing this as well.

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I think it's really, like, AI is an enabler and it can catalyze things and it, uh, but I think really going back actually what you said is the objective and what is the use case, and I think that, that's essential for answering any of those questions before, like, investing in certain, like, tooling, just purely AI.

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Like, there might be nice use cases, but is that a must-have, for example? Is that core? Is that non-core? I think those are essential questions to ask.

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So I, I don't have the solution for you, but I think going back to, like, what is the objective, what is the problem you're solving for, and what is the use case? And then make your decision. Uh, that seems...

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AI seems like it'd be good topic over dinner. Um, [laughing] uh, as we... Yeah, yeah. Next, next podcast.

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Um, as we wrap up here, any, like, um, closing or parting thoughts or any like, um, kind of reflections from the conversation?

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A little, a little bit of air time, but I-- also what I see right now is, like, kind of who is your audience? And I think also internally understanding if people are actually...

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Is there a window of opportunity that people are susceptible for a new change, a new decision grid, for example?

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And that thinking through adoption of those great ideas and, and, and strategies, et cetera, but I think that's so essential with all, everything we discuss, whether it's tooling decisions, whether it's, um, cultural changes or like, yeah, supporting mid-management, for example.

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That, that is what I learned recently and I stick with it, I would say. [laughs]What I observed is that you should be always ready to scale, even if you are not like in the scaling phase or close to the scaling phase.

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Mm-hmm. You should always have scaling in mind because things are very-- are moving very fast. You need to be very resilient and act s- a-act very fast as an organization.

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So when you are building something, build it already with scaling in mind, even if you are designing something for two people.

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And on that point, similarly, like scaling is, is something cannot be done if it is not defined.

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And, you know, you-- exactly on your pi- point, don't do it more, don't do it fast, do it better with intention, and that's how it gonna lead it.

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And especially as the role in chief of staff or anybody who's doing strategies and operations, we sit in a position where, um, I would say an intersection of strategy, execution, and culture, how that follows all together, gets into implementation, and how it's gets faded into the process or gets, you know, accelerate into the process.

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Uh, so this is, this is basically leaning onto the ambiguity. Um, but scaling is, is important, but do it right. So when my first joined the firm, my executive gifted me for my first day in the office, a book.

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It's a copy of, um, Claire Hughes Johnson's book, Scale: Scaling Team and People. And I think like maybe six months in, he was like, "Well, how much of it have you read and how much of it have you used?"

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And I was like, "Honestly, not that much." [laughs] Um, but the one thing I did learn is like people think in terms of scaling people, people and headcount or like scaling assets and revenues and scaling process.

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But I think like ultimately it all relies on scaling knowledge. Because if you add headcount, but you never train them, you never unlock that potential.

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And if you scale process without the correct like information transfer, the process eventually breaks down. And we don't focus enough on like how learning and development scale within an organization.

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And so that's been something we've spent a lot of time thinking, like we're the external communications group, um, of the firm, and yet the thing that we find most challenging is just communicating internally about what's going on.

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Mm-hmm. Um, it's such a, such a funny like position to be in, but now we spend-- I spend so much of my time focusing on es-essentially like knowledge connectivity.

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Like if I find this tidbit of information from one of the investment teams, like how do I make sure that that gets to all the right people across the firm without having to send fifty million emails or reports, um, in a way that's actually truly efficient?

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Um, but I think that's like one of the key insights from this book. Highly recommend. Well, I love how we're scaling knowledge to this podcast.

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[laughs] Um, and it feels like a, a must-have is eating, uh, but, um, Chang, um, thanks everybody for being part of this. Woo-woo.

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