WEBVTT 1 00:00:00.100 --> 00:00:13.980 [upbeat music] Hey friend, it's David Nebinsky, the community lead here at the Chief of Staff Network. 2 00:00:14.500 --> 00:00:24.540 We help chiefs of staff through the three Cs: cohorts, curriculum, and community via Slack with over 900 people in it. Learn more about our membership, events, and courses at chiefofstaff.network. 3 00:00:25.460 --> 00:00:36.240 There, you'll see our upcoming Chief of Staff Connect conferences in New York in October and London in November. Hope to see you there. This episode of the Chief of Staff Podcast is with Audrey Ware and Fanni Gabor. 4 00:00:36.580 --> 00:00:45.760 The topic of this group chat podcast episode was change management. So in this episode, you'll hear stories and examples and ideas related to navigating and implementing change as a chief of staff. 5 00:00:46.320 --> 00:00:51.040 This episode was recorded at BambooX's NYC office and studio. 6 00:00:51.140 --> 00:01:06.600 BambooX works with seeds to late stage startups and their VCs, including Vercel, Hinge Health, Closa, and NEA, helping them hire top talent across software engineering, data, machine learning and AI, product management, and design. 7 00:01:06.920 --> 00:01:19.940 You can learn more at www.bamboo-x.com. So excited for you to level up as a chief of staff. Here we go with Audrey and Fanni. Um, welcome to the Chief of Staff Podcast. David's here with Fanni and Audrey. 8 00:01:20.020 --> 00:01:32.630 We're here in New York at BambooX's office, uh, and studio, and we're here to chat about all things change management. Such an exciting topic, huh? Very exciting. Yeah. 9 00:01:32.630 --> 00:01:41.460 [laughs] It never happens in the chief of staff role. There's never a change. Never anything interesting. Yeah, there's never anything interesting, yeah. No changes. No changes, yeah. 10 00:01:41.660 --> 00:01:45.880 I mean, we could probably start on, like, what's happened today could just be a whole episode. 11 00:01:45.980 --> 00:01:57.460 But, um, yeah, wanted to talk through different stories and experiences, and I think, um, yeah, Fanni, if you wanna kick things off about change management or, or anything that comes to mind, uh, would love to hear it. 12 00:01:57.760 --> 00:02:08.049 I would love to, David. Thank you for having me. So nice to meet you. Yeah, nice to meet you as well. Um, I mean, it's kind of a running joke in my life. My friends and family- [laughs]... 13 00:02:08.080 --> 00:02:17.620 are well aware of my probably larger than average need for change. Um, I mean, I grew up in Hungary. I moved to New York. I moved to Colorado, back to New York. 14 00:02:18.640 --> 00:02:27.120 I moved through divorces and breakups, and I kind of get engaged and break up at the speed that other people [laughs] get their groceries. 15 00:02:27.200 --> 00:02:37.290 So, um, I think I, I really truly have this, like, need for constant growth and- Mm.... like transformation, and I really- Mm... 16 00:02:37.340 --> 00:02:46.300 you know, look at life as, like, a constant butterfly effect, and you're either growing and evolving or you are declining. I think life is not static. 17 00:02:46.340 --> 00:02:55.320 And, um, yeah, I was 28, living in the suburbs, doing a full-time job, and, and I just felt like that was not my life. 18 00:02:55.460 --> 00:03:10.040 So I think in the chief of staff role, uh, my background is in recruiting, and I'm still, um, you know, running a recruiting agency that I started five years ago, but through that, I met a, a CEO who I joined as a chief of staff. 19 00:03:10.080 --> 00:03:21.510 And I think, like you said, it's a, a role that's really, you know, driving change as you... Everything in that role is about moving the organization- Mm... 20 00:03:21.560 --> 00:03:30.660 forward through the, the CEO or, you know, whoever you're working closest with. Um, and so I'm really excited to chat more about my favorite topic. 21 00:03:30.980 --> 00:03:43.480 Yeah, it's, it's interesting when you mention how you thrive off of change. That, I feel like that tends to be a common thread between a lot of the chief of staffs- Mm... I chat with, where we tend to enjoy, 22 00:03:44.460 --> 00:03:54.350 you know, bouncing around, learning different items. Speaking for myself, if I do the same task over and over, I will kind of go insane. [laughs] Oh. 23 00:03:54.350 --> 00:04:06.090 Um, so I enjoy the, the learning aspect, but I think one of the interesting things about being a chief of staff, I feel like almost virtually everything that you end up doing is somehow changing something, right? Mm. 24 00:04:06.120 --> 00:04:17.670 You're driving a project to do X. That project will probably impact someone, which inherently is change. Mm-hmm. So I think that's the really interesting part, you know? 25 00:04:17.680 --> 00:04:28.600 And, like, I feel like when I think of, you know, change management in different areas, you could have change management related to, let's say, like, personnel, right? That's a big one. Uh, you could have process change. 26 00:04:28.620 --> 00:04:40.380 Mm. And they all kind of have different implications in terms of, like, how you would want to roll that out, how people are impacted, and it's just constant in the chief of staff role. Yeah. 27 00:04:40.580 --> 00:04:48.160 Do you have any kind of interesting examples that stick out to you for, like, personnel or, like, process changes? Any challenges you've run into? 28 00:04:48.240 --> 00:04:59.030 I mean, what I love probably the most about the startup that I spend most of my time with, which is called Glide Identity, an almost Series A- Mm.... um, super- [laughs]... 29 00:04:59.040 --> 00:05:09.900 high-growing, new, new era startup is that the entire, like, the product itself is a change to its category, which is digital identity. 30 00:05:09.960 --> 00:05:20.150 And so at this particular time with, um, you know, the, the rise of the AI agents and bots from, it's increasingly faster and easier to- Mm... 31 00:05:20.320 --> 00:05:30.200 to create cyberattacks, and then AI agents very soon will have to start checking out and making purchases and acting on behalf of us, right? So- Mm-hmm... 32 00:05:30.340 --> 00:05:42.000 it's, uh, you know, like, e-everything [laughs] in the category is being disrupted from, you know, like, AI really f- fastly entering everything at work. 33 00:05:42.050 --> 00:05:55.480 And then there's the other component of that, of building, like, our own internal OS and agents, and through my recruiting agency, we're also building AI agents. Mm-hmm. Um, so I think it's this constant, um... 34 00:05:55.760 --> 00:06:06.164 And for my role, we actually call it chief of flow instead [laughs] of chief of staff because it's all about, like-You know, change is inherently, like, uncomfortable, right? 35 00:06:06.244 --> 00:06:20.344 Like, humans evolve because we want change, and that's how we grow. But the biological, like, um, prefrontal cortex, the yoga teachers say. [laughs] Yeah, that's right. That's like the- Uh... decision center. 36 00:06:20.784 --> 00:06:32.524 Yeah, but like- Fully formed when you're like 26. Yeah, and like, the, the most primitive part of the brain wants the status quo, right? Like, the known is the safe- Mm... the unknown is the unsafe. 37 00:06:32.664 --> 00:06:45.824 So I think, y- you know, now at an incredibly fast speed, we're grappling with this, like, inherent contradiction of, like, we have to change, but it's, like, painful, and we don't really want to do it. 38 00:06:45.844 --> 00:06:54.774 And so in the chief of staff role, I think we are in a really unique role to, like, help people constantly be in flow ideally through this. 39 00:06:55.064 --> 00:07:07.924 One question I have for you is I know you mentioned that your company is kind of aiming to be one of the, you know, new generation of companies where you're able to grow with significantly less employees, where you're able to rely- Yeah... 40 00:07:07.934 --> 00:07:19.114 re- rely on GenTech AI. Yeah. How do you go about kind of building that kind of organization with, like, the rate of change that we're even seeing with AI capabilities? 41 00:07:19.144 --> 00:07:27.984 And I don't know, maybe potential fears around people being like, "Oh, wow, this is my job, and I feel like in the human gap right now." Like, how is, how is that experience? Yeah. 42 00:07:28.124 --> 00:07:42.584 I mean, I think a benefit of being a new company is that you make, you know, constantly new decisions with every single hire. Uh, we make most of our hires as, like, contract freelance for at least- Mm... 43 00:07:42.664 --> 00:07:58.954 a, um, significant period. Some of the full-time employees came over. They already knew the CEO and were a part of the previous company. But I think it's you, you know, really monitoring output and outcomes- Mm... 44 00:07:58.984 --> 00:08:15.874 instead of, um, you know, traditional, like, hour-based and more, like, rigid full-time roles. Um, and really, um... Like, our chief, um, operation officer is building out, like, the cloud, you know, team- Yeah... 45 00:08:15.884 --> 00:08:25.274 projects, infrastructure. Everyone is vibe coding- Mm... and the CEO himself is a highly technical person- Okay... who's driving the product and the team. Yeah. 46 00:08:25.284 --> 00:08:35.304 And I think in that sense probably because, A, he's incredibly fast, and B, he's incredibly good at, um, both recognizing talent and then teaching people. Yeah. 47 00:08:35.684 --> 00:08:44.624 Like, it's still, we're between, you know, under 20 people currently, so it's a very- Right... like, the CEO founder is able to be hands-on and build that culture. Yeah. 48 00:08:44.744 --> 00:08:57.184 But I'm curious how it's gonna be by the time B, we are- Yeah... larger. How is- Yeah... um, how is your 160 employee situation? Yeah. So I think one of the really interesting things when we think about change is 49 00:08:58.184 --> 00:09:04.204 you're still with your founder CEO, right? So there's an inherent rate of change- Mm... 50 00:09:04.304 --> 00:09:17.244 as it's growing, but you get to a point with a lot of startups, especially y- you know, when you get your, your first funding and you start growing, where the founder CEO may not be the right CEO, and you bring in new leadership. 51 00:09:17.304 --> 00:09:29.164 Mm. Right? Is that where you are? Uh, yes. [laughs] Tell us, we- Oh, is that... Yeah... we definitely... No, it's... I kind of came in after- Okay... um, kind of a few leadership changes. 52 00:09:29.204 --> 00:09:36.214 And, you know, one of the interesting aspects of that is it can really impact people, right? Mm. 53 00:09:36.224 --> 00:09:47.124 Because especially imagine you join a startup, so right now it's pretty small and tight-knit, and you have to kind of go through that change of being like, oh, wow. Uh, I was just chatting with, um, some folks earlier. 54 00:09:47.224 --> 00:09:55.554 They're a three-person startup. And, you know, you get to a point where you can still be together, and then as you get larger, you're like, "Oh, we can't all go out to lunch together anymore." Yeah. 55 00:09:55.554 --> 00:10:06.804 "We all don't know what's happening in the organization." And you get to a point where some of that closeness- Yeah... um, starts to dissipate. Mm. And you're kind of dealing with, like, how personnel is reacting. 56 00:10:06.844 --> 00:10:14.384 So when I came into, to my startup, I mean, we were still, like, significantly bigger. We're also remote. And any time that we've had 57 00:10:15.324 --> 00:10:26.324 leadership changes, and I think we're, we're on a really good path right now, but there are personnel implications. I mean, let's say you're an individual contributor. 58 00:10:26.404 --> 00:10:38.204 You're so far distanced from a lot of the leadership decisions, sometimes you're just impacted, but you aren't part of that change itself. Yeah. And that can create feelings of instability, right? 59 00:10:38.584 --> 00:10:45.544 In terms of, like, not knowing what's gonna happen to you. Processes might be changing. There might be restructuring changes. 60 00:10:46.224 --> 00:10:56.764 Um, and that can definitely take a toll, and I think that's where it also depends on the employees themselves and the ones who can adapt, you know, as you go on, like, the... 61 00:10:57.364 --> 00:11:06.934 Al- almost like a, like a rollercoaster, right? Of, you know, this is where you are right now, and oh, that happened and that happened, and how do you kind of go about making sure people feel comfortable? 62 00:11:07.064 --> 00:11:10.614 I think- Yeah... that's probably one of the, the largest pieces. 63 00:11:10.644 --> 00:11:27.284 And I'd be curious of your perspective, but I feel like this is where if we break it down between let's say, like, process or personnel or org, I feel like anything related to, like, org or personnel, um, let's say you bring in a new CEO or you have a new leader come in, you almost need to go with the big bang approach. 64 00:11:27.924 --> 00:11:40.514 Mm. You know? As in, let's say you have a new leader coming in. You don't say, "Oh, this person is leaving. We're, we're, we're starting the search." Yeah. You can, but that can create that feeling of instability. 65 00:11:41.104 --> 00:11:57.724 Whereas if you have the predecessor ready, and actually they have a fantastic vision, that can drive a lot of excitement rather than, you know, like, bringing s- someone leaves, and then you're trying to figure out, like, okay, we have this fractional role right now who's doing a great job, but it's not the future person. 66 00:11:58.144 --> 00:12:03.904 Yeah. Kind of having that roadmap of someone who can, you know- Yeah... share that vision. Yeah. Oh, if I recruited- Yeah, when you recruited... 67 00:12:04.303 --> 00:12:12.744 [laughs] I love recruiting- Oh, yeah, because recruiting- It's like, right, recruiting currently you always get the confidential searches, or it's like we are not posting this role. This is... 68 00:12:12.784 --> 00:12:29.538 And, uh, this is a backfill, and they're like-The person is still here, but he's quite severe backfill But, um, yeah, I mean, now I actually think a lot about of approaching a role almost as like a subscription kind of thing, where you merge recruiting and HR- Mm. 69 00:12:29.608 --> 00:12:38.228 And I, I think the current system is hugely inefficient talking about change. Like, I think we have to, we have to change a lot of things. 70 00:12:38.308 --> 00:12:50.168 And, um, yeah, I think recruiting is essentially a change management process, right? Mm. Because someone either left or the business is so big that you need a new role, and so a new person is... 71 00:12:51.208 --> 00:12:54.628 I think at the end of the day, it's all about people, and that's what I'm learning. 72 00:12:54.648 --> 00:13:07.568 With this startup too, like, you know, you're selling things, you're buying things, but at the end of the day, whether it's B2B or B2C, like, it's, you know, people making decisions, and- Mm... 73 00:13:07.608 --> 00:13:10.748 each of those decisions are leading to change. 74 00:13:10.788 --> 00:13:28.408 And I think, uh, a lot of it, and our role as well, I'm curious about how, how you've seen this, is, um, you know, just being able to impact that decision-making in a lot of way, and next year, like the soft influencing change. 75 00:13:28.888 --> 00:13:36.448 Yeah. Yeah. No, it's, it's an interesting question. I think it largely depends on the area you're going after. 76 00:13:36.458 --> 00:13:46.288 But I think one of the kind of most beneficial ways to go about it is, let's say you are kinda deciding, okay, we need to improve like X, Y, Z process. I'll give you an example. 77 00:13:46.348 --> 00:13:57.098 Like, let's say, um, we need a new vendor for... We need like a dialer vendor, right? Um, part of it comes down to kind of laying out, okay, these are the gaps that we have. 78 00:13:57.658 --> 00:14:00.528 And then, like let's say you're trying to steer towards... 79 00:14:00.568 --> 00:14:13.168 I mean, let's say we spend a little bit more, but then we get more of the capabilities, and sometimes you need to have those conversations also depending on like where you're at in terms of like a cash flow perspective, if your business is like more seasonal, less seasonal, um, and, and balancing all of that. 80 00:14:13.258 --> 00:14:20.168 And I think a lot of it comes down to just having conversations with people and understanding what their needs are. 81 00:14:20.428 --> 00:14:32.768 Because I think it's easy to go into something s- you know, saying like, "Okay, I know my perspective," but I think there's a lot of value in chatting with different leaders and understanding what they actually need and what their requirements are, and then- Love... 82 00:14:32.808 --> 00:14:39.228 taking that and then kind of building that into your criteria, and then also molding that with the business. 83 00:14:39.668 --> 00:15:03.078 I think one of the, one of the neat things about being, I would say, the chief of staff or more of like an ops type role, is that you, you're not just thinking with one department hat, you're thinking of what makes sense for the business as a whole, incorporating kind of the different elements of what matters, and also recognizing that there could be, you know, like certain personal attachments with like- Mm... 84 00:15:03.108 --> 00:15:11.518 certain vendors, like maybe you received an award or something, you know? And that can, that can impact like how you personally feel. Which is a great strategy if you're ever a vendor. Mm. 85 00:15:11.518 --> 00:15:21.308 Like, give a, give awards to your customers. Um, but it's, it's, it's, it's a role, I would say, that where you just really need to incorporate and also communicate back. 86 00:15:21.788 --> 00:15:39.188 I also think that when you get feedback, you're able to kind of get buy-in, but then also you end up with, you know, a better solution because you've chatted with, you know, the department heads or even, even people below the department heads who are actually using it. 87 00:15:39.388 --> 00:15:44.388 Mm. Um, 'cause, you know, sometimes you could have, let's say like a, a department leader, especially like, as you get like... 88 00:15:44.408 --> 00:15:52.698 You know, you grow as a startup and you're further and further from the individual con- contributors, right? Sometimes, like they know where things break down with the current- Mm... 89 00:15:52.788 --> 00:16:00.668 tools, and you know what you need to like poke holes in or like how things are actually used, and that can be, that can be really beneficial. 90 00:16:00.708 --> 00:16:16.448 What does your current process look like right now in terms of trying to influence and, like, generate flow? I'm curious. [laughs] Um, I think it's, uh, a very 91 00:16:18.068 --> 00:16:30.728 part intuitive, part asking- Mm... a lot of questions and always trying to be aware of the environment. So just as a, you know, I guess a step back up. 92 00:16:30.807 --> 00:16:40.928 So I, I spend probably like two weeks out of the month with my CEO, either in San Francisco or traveling. Mm. And his schedule is like... 93 00:16:41.728 --> 00:16:53.668 I mean, he's doing full day, you know, local meeting back to back, and then calls with the R&D team, um, in Israel and Europe, and then we are o- onboarding telcos in Asia as well. 94 00:16:53.788 --> 00:17:26.508 So he often like just even creating the flow for sleep, meditation, some exercise, um, and then making sure that everything, um, you know, happens at the right time and all the meetings where we are are like the highest, um, you know, impact and value ones, and constantly reshuffling priorities and, um, and just keeping a track of the whole... 95 00:17:26.608 --> 00:17:34.718 Like, he's currently at, we are at that stage where, you know, every department is still like very much directly under the CEO. 96 00:17:34.808 --> 00:17:53.868 And so it's this very, like constantly high-stress, incredible speed environment where we have to bring in, you know, moments of like reflection, of strategy, of quiet, reading, walking. 97 00:17:53.968 --> 00:18:07.598 Um, we do some of our meetings in like sauna, bathhouse settings. That's- [laughs]... [laughs] I, yeah, I- Being very creative. Yeah. Because everything is work, right? So- Although-... 98 00:18:07.598 --> 00:18:19.368 the only way to not burn out is to- Although I'm not sure bathhouse. That's, I think that's a very cultural, uh, question that chairs. [laughs] Versus other ship? Or I mean like- Oh, my God. 99 00:18:19.608 --> 00:18:32.418 [laughs] I mean, a bathhouse for a meeting. Oh, okay. Yeah.Um, I, I love-- I'm with you on the concept, but it would be like if I'm founding a company with my best friend. Sure. Yeah. 100 00:18:32.498 --> 00:18:41.698 But it'd make me a little bit nervous. No, it's interesting. But it's also cultural. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. But I, but I think the, like, what I, what I, what I kinda wanna double-click on here is, like, 101 00:18:42.838 --> 00:18:59.128 your role seems to be, like, a true, um, like, extension of who you are and your background and like, I think you glossed over it, but, like, your CEO used to be a client, right? Well- Or, like- Yeah. Yeah. Exactly... 102 00:18:59.128 --> 00:19:12.428 it, like, you're recruiting, like you were, you were doing recruiting, um, and then that kind of led tour, to- We- Yeah. You g- and you went more into depth. [laughs] But, but it sounds like- Legally speaking. Yeah. 103 00:19:12.478 --> 00:19:22.998 Okay. Okay. Yeah, yeah. Um... Yeah. But through that, like, doing something, building something on the side, a company, then, like, indirectly- Mm... 104 00:19:23.058 --> 00:19:33.978 or over time led to this chief of staff role, and you also have a background in, like, wellness and yoga and, like, that's some of the type of the work that you're- Mm... 105 00:19:34.078 --> 00:19:40.418 um, some, are bringing to this chief of staff role that you now call chief of flow. Yeah. 106 00:19:40.458 --> 00:19:53.188 So, like, I think, like, for people that are looking for roles or, like, are thinking about how to find a role, it's like, you know, like, you were probably drawn to this and this person is drawn to you and there's just, like, a really good, like, fit and- Yeah... 107 00:19:53.368 --> 00:20:04.578 synergy here that, like, is, like, when people are thinking about how to get a chief of staff role- Yeah... or what kind of chief of staff role. It's like this is, like, a real, like, authentic or, like, good fit here. 108 00:20:04.698 --> 00:20:19.478 Yes, and thank you [laughs] for noticing that because I think, um... So when I identified, I moved to San Francisco from New York with a digital nomadic, um, crazy journey and, um- Lots of change... lots of change. 109 00:20:19.578 --> 00:20:30.977 [laughs] And I identified the chief of staff role, and then I was looking, you know, some, like, online, like, job postings and seeing things and, you know, asking. 110 00:20:30.998 --> 00:20:37.678 Like, I selected two roles, one at a VC firm and one at a late-stage startup that I was like, "Oh," like, "this is the right chief of staff role." 111 00:20:37.728 --> 00:20:46.778 And I asked a few friends and, like, network people for introductions and this and that, and I, I never... Like, it, it wasn't, it wasn't flow. It wasn't meant to be. 112 00:20:47.278 --> 00:20:59.158 And the reason why [laughs] we still, like, go to the sauna a lot, part of the reason I actually met my founder CEO in the sauna. [laughs] Oh. Wow. That's hysterical. In San Francisco. Yes. So, 113 00:21:00.078 --> 00:21:11.198 um, it's one of those, like, the universe- Yeah... like, if you're in your energy and- Yeah... kind of, you know, you have an idea of what you want. But for me, it was clear that it has to be with the right person. 114 00:21:11.298 --> 00:21:30.878 Like, I knew nothing about cybersecurity or telcos or the whole space, but we had this connection of, um, you know, understanding that this place in time and the next three to five years, like, what we're building and the developments that are happening, like, we're reshaping how the room is going to look like. 115 00:21:30.918 --> 00:21:44.438 And so I- Yeah... I think, um, it's, uh, you know, everything that we do is a very, like, purposeful, solving real problems that, um, Eran always says are net positive for humanity. 116 00:21:44.488 --> 00:21:55.118 [laughs] So let's ask ourselves always the question of is this, um, something that's worth spending time on because there are so many problems and so many change that we really have to focus on the right thing. 117 00:21:55.238 --> 00:22:08.338 So for me, I mean, my entire life has been around relationships and, and being around people who I learn the most from at that particular time. I learn the best in person and I love in-person connections. 118 00:22:08.398 --> 00:22:22.178 So, um, and, and it's been a lot of change around, you know, the people that I spend time with and, and constantly having that energy, and I think, yeah, for me, the chief of staff role, the most important thing is that you have that person for. 119 00:22:22.238 --> 00:22:36.578 Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah. And, um, Audra, your role has been r- mostly remote. Yes. And you, um, also earlier you talked about how the company got smaller or got bigger. Did it... 120 00:22:36.618 --> 00:22:48.378 Has it decreased in size, or has it always increased in size? So largely, I mean, we're, we're a company where we scaled dramatically during COVID. Mm. But more so on the people end than the process side. 121 00:22:49.198 --> 00:22:55.998 So what we're doing right now is a lot of effort to improve processes, but we did go through periods of downscale. 122 00:22:56.558 --> 00:23:08.968 Um, like, for context, um, one of our products is, is ticketing, so we do, uh, digital ticketing, fundraising tech, and then communications and websites for high schools and smaller, and, like, tend, tend to be like- Yeah... 123 00:23:09.078 --> 00:23:09.898 D2, D3 colleges. 124 00:23:10.738 --> 00:23:25.698 And we had some custors, customer success managers who would get s- pictures of, of nap, on napkins of schedules or, like, PDFs, and one of them was handwriting in a notebook and then typing in a computer like I did. 125 00:23:25.798 --> 00:23:34.698 Um, [laughs] I've done so many things- Mm... across. Um, but sometimes your dis- processes are just so inefficient 126 00:23:35.658 --> 00:23:47.568 that you need to go through a process of change to also build in the right processes and then have the people who are ready for that change. And that period in itself- Mm... 127 00:23:47.658 --> 00:24:02.598 uh, can bring some feelings of instability, you know, for the other employees, and that, and that's tough, and that requires a lot of assurance and the right leaders to really, you know, make people feel comfortable and requires kind of addressing head-on. 128 00:24:02.678 --> 00:24:15.238 I think, I think when, when you ignore the instability, it just stays there or it kind of stays more so, like, the, it bubbles at the individual contributor level, right? And then you kind of slowly see it, it come up. 129 00:24:15.318 --> 00:24:27.898 But it's, it's really been interesting to see, um, that kind of change, and we've seen it in so many different areas. I mean, especially as you, if you shift people from, like, one side of the org to the other. 130 00:24:27.978 --> 00:24:41.154 So right, right now what we're doing is we are building out an ops org, and we've never had an ops org before.Um, so there's a lot of change, and let's say you're, you know, changing processes and it impacts other parts of the business. 131 00:24:41.214 --> 00:24:47.054 You know, initially it's kind of what is going on? Am I having to do, like, all this extra work? And then there's, you know, 132 00:24:48.154 --> 00:24:56.834 ultimately I think how you go about driving this change effectively is just you need to build buy-in, and part of that comes down to, 133 00:24:57.874 --> 00:25:12.074 you know, gathering feedback, understanding what's not working, and then presenting the vision of, okay, we know RFPs have been so painful in the past because you were going, reaching out and collecting information and understanding what's- Yeah... 134 00:25:12.204 --> 00:25:25.574 updated, and it was just a human process and just painful, and how can we, you know, take that, like, use a tool, also have a very clean way to collect and store information and, like, you know, set up automations for 135 00:25:26.494 --> 00:25:31.314 this specific department has a cadence of every three months. They go in and, you know- Yeah... they update information in this tool. 136 00:25:31.344 --> 00:25:39.254 And so when you start to get to more so, like, the vision of where we're headed and you're able to build that buy-in, I think that's where it's really transformational. Yeah. 137 00:25:39.414 --> 00:25:53.674 But going from this state of status quo to kind of that vision, it takes, you know, time and energy, and it's not always perfect. And I'm also curious, um, about your experience because I think it's... 138 00:25:53.914 --> 00:26:02.534 We can always talk about change management and s- the successes, but I'm sure we've both seen failures or have learned from mistakes. Hmm. 139 00:26:02.604 --> 00:26:09.334 Do you have any that come to mind for you that you think would be helpful to share that others could learn from? I mean, I don't know. 140 00:26:09.394 --> 00:26:21.354 I think I struggle with the concept of failure because, like, I have this, like, personal- Mm-hmm... mantra that I really, like, probably 141 00:26:22.794 --> 00:26:32.434 since last year, like, relatively new, but I've really committed to this of, like- Yeah... everything happens exactly at the time and place it's meant to happen. Mm. 142 00:26:32.994 --> 00:26:45.754 And I think it's a lot of, like, the improv theater- Mm-hmm... trainings- Yeah... that I'm obsessed with of, um, you know, we, we have to make the best decisions at the time, and then we'll get new information. 143 00:26:45.854 --> 00:27:03.214 I mean, I make mistakes all the time. [laughs] They are always painful from... It's more like a smaller, you know, sending the wrong thing to the wrong person, forgetting about things, booking the wrong things. 144 00:27:03.274 --> 00:27:17.614 Like, it's a, a constant thing. We lose things on the road. And I think with, um, you know, the speed at which we're moving at, and I've learned from Aran a lot about this of, you know, being very honest and open. 145 00:27:17.674 --> 00:27:27.374 Like, I don't hide anything. I'm always just like, "This is what happened," and then coming up with... It's like I accidentally, for this conference, I booked two hotel rooms. 146 00:27:27.474 --> 00:27:30.794 [laughs] And it's like it doesn't sound like a big deal, but I just... 147 00:27:30.834 --> 00:27:41.434 It's, it's always these, like, small, stupid mistakes that, um, kind of get you and, you know, then it's like, okay, it's not cancelable, but we have this other room, so we can host a podcast there. 148 00:27:41.544 --> 00:27:50.674 [laughs] So we can invite all these people- Yeah... and, like, that's a good use of money. [laughs] Or I can throw a party there. Like- Yeah... that's a good idea. So it's like then it's, you know. Mm. 149 00:27:50.774 --> 00:28:02.154 I, I try to just, um, train my brain to constantly move on to the next thing and make the best of it instead of arguing with reality. 150 00:28:02.734 --> 00:28:08.634 And then, I mean, with failure, I think the same thing of, like, it's only time tells, right? Like, we're on a... 151 00:28:09.504 --> 00:28:21.964 W- we don't know how long the timeline is, and depending on when you take a screenshot of our lives, you can tell very different stories. And the stories we tell about the choices we make- Mm... 152 00:28:22.014 --> 00:28:33.404 is, like, up to us, so I like to tell success stories. [laughs] [laughs] Especially about my divorces and breakups. [laughs] And Aran is, is the CEO- Yeah... that you work with. Yes. Yeah. 153 00:28:33.514 --> 00:28:41.884 Um, Audrey, it sounds like there was a failure that has come to mind, or- Yeah. I mean, I- Yeah. Please. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. 154 00:28:41.884 --> 00:28:54.574 And I think what I'll say as well is I'm one of those people where I view a lot of things positively, and I've gone after, you know, things that I've... There are things that I've gotten and things that I- Yeah... 155 00:28:54.634 --> 00:29:01.674 I haven't. But if you don't... What's the, what's the expression? Like, you, you lose, like, 100% of the shots that you don't take. Yeah. Right? 156 00:29:02.234 --> 00:29:18.734 Um, I very much have that mentality, but I also like to reflect on the things that I've, I've done and then think about, okay, in the future, like, w- how could I be even more effective? 157 00:29:19.214 --> 00:29:32.694 I'm probably a little bit too introspective. [laughs] Mm. Um, but, like, o- one example that I did have is, so we're actually rolling out, um, a change with our onboarding flow right now. Mm. 158 00:29:32.794 --> 00:29:46.234 And i- it's, it's hard because we've actually been bringing in some, like, fantastic leaders, but as we bring in people, we wanna make sure that we're designing processes that also match with their vision, which is fantastic, right? 159 00:29:46.874 --> 00:29:58.774 Um, but one of the things that I, we've noticed is early on, um, I solicited feedback, and we have teams who have known that, you know, we're about to make a change they're really excited about. 160 00:29:59.034 --> 00:30:08.694 But when you have a change that people are really excited about and you end up having to delay it a little bit, um, that can also create feelings- Mm... 161 00:30:08.734 --> 00:30:11.954 where, you know, employees might be like, "Oh, I want this to happen now, now, now." 162 00:30:12.534 --> 00:30:23.874 And so it's kind of about managing that change, and I think, you know, one of the things I've learned about that is it's great to, like, get that feedback and the momentum, but 163 00:30:25.034 --> 00:30:47.898 thinking through a little bit more, like, how can I manage expectations, you know, better in the future, maybe give a little bit more wiggle room-So that we have a little bit more of that, that runway, um, 'cause, like, we're really close now, but it's, uh, it's definitely one of those things where it's like people do feel impacted, you know? 164 00:30:47.958 --> 00:31:00.798 Like, imagine, um, I don't know, let's say you were on the beach, and for your job you had to wear a suit at the beach. Mm. I told you, "Hey, pretty soon you can wear your swimsuit," and you'd be like, "Thank goodness. 165 00:31:01.358 --> 00:31:07.137 This is Fahrenheit, but it's 100 degrees. I'm sweating." And you'd be like, "I want this to happen now." Mm-hmm. Right? Mm-hmm. 166 00:31:07.638 --> 00:31:15.598 [laughs] And so it's one of those things that can build excitement, but it can also, you know, create feelings of people just being like, "I want this to happen now." So it's- Yeah... 167 00:31:15.638 --> 00:31:28.938 it's more so just a really, yeah, it's a good reflection around, you know, expectation setting if there isn't a clear, you know, an insight or we're bringing in, you know, people where we want to make sure we collect their opinions. 168 00:31:28.998 --> 00:31:42.118 So just, um, kind of- Yeah... an example there. Um, and then, and then broadly too, I think no change is perfect, right? Mm. Even, like, when you go through, like... 169 00:31:43.218 --> 00:31:57.598 I think I was, um, having some conversations around, like, if you're going through a period of downsizing, and we're past, we're past that now completely, but when you're going through that process, like, you are not... 170 00:31:57.738 --> 00:32:10.158 You are going to miss things. It, it's hard to find one company that did it perfectly, right? And it involves a lot of interviews and conversations and understanding, like, who is impacted, what is impacted. 171 00:32:10.198 --> 00:32:25.078 Like, someone might have a login to, like, a company Twitter. Mm. And then you have to go track that down because one person owned it. Identity nightmare. [laughs] [laughs] Fun to see- That was a free idea... 172 00:32:25.418 --> 00:32:32.217 fun- But what if- That was a free idea... what if for your company, what if it's connected to their, like, SMS? You're still... It's still their phone. That's gonna go away. Yeah. Oh. 173 00:32:32.478 --> 00:32:44.778 [laughs] That's a whole nother podcast episode. [laughs] Um, and also I'm probably cur- I am curious about what was the change management for you to move to New York and what that... if that was a real, like, process. 174 00:32:45.378 --> 00:33:01.418 Um, and while or before you answer that, um, uh, Fanny, is there any other, like, parting thoughts, final thoughts that you'd wanna share that... or stories that you think that we haven't touched on? Oh, God. Uh, 175 00:33:02.638 --> 00:33:12.678 thinking outside of the box is always better. Prompt me, David. [laughs] [laughs] Well, is there any other, like, is there a change management framework? Is there anything... 176 00:33:12.838 --> 00:33:22.958 Like, I think what I'm taking away from this conversation with you is around, like, the product itself is change and the ca- like, you're kinda creating a new category, and so you're like- Mm... 177 00:33:22.998 --> 00:33:38.958 the company in general is in, like- I mean, I would say mindset. Uh, change is a mindset. I think everything, like, everything is [laughs] going to change very fast. Um, and I talk to the AIs about this [laughs] a lot. 178 00:33:39.538 --> 00:33:57.198 And we have very good conversations with both Shadi and Claude on, you know, like, very interested in how what happened to blue collar work is now happening to white collar work, what that's going to mean when it comes to, you know, everything from nation states to governance to education, our financial systems. 179 00:33:57.258 --> 00:34:07.138 I mean, I think it's, it's, uh, an amazing time for anyone and everyone who sees problems and is curious- Mm... about creating solutions. 180 00:34:07.178 --> 00:34:26.608 And I think that's the, uh, that's how I see my role to really, you know, create flow and bring the right people together and, and be there through this change because it truly is a mindset game to me of all of our jobs, everyone's jobs, [laughs] the companies, the environments. 181 00:34:26.658 --> 00:34:41.618 Like, we can't comprehend how much life is going to change around us, so the only thing we can do is stay curious and be around good people and work on problems that we, you know, there is some kind of emotional resonance if you're driven by that. 182 00:34:41.738 --> 00:34:56.117 I am. And, um, and it's a good thing. Like, every day something can happen that completely changes your life. Like, it's incredible. Mm. I love it. Parting thoughts from you, Audrey? Parting thoughts. Um, 183 00:34:57.057 --> 00:35:12.358 I kind of wanna react a little bit to what you mentioned, which is, I mean, the environment we're in right now, the change we're seeing [laughs] at the government, uh, the Twitter wars back and forth, um, 184 00:35:13.578 --> 00:35:25.558 just, you know, existing in this environment, and you, you look at the rates of employment for software engineers- Mm... and they just plummeted. My San Francisco friends call it the revenge of the English majors. Mm. 185 00:35:25.638 --> 00:35:38.958 [laughs] Which I love. [laughs] Oh, my gosh. But we're in a period right now where we are facing so much uncertainty. So, like, think of this is, like, the rise of the internet, the ri- Mm... 186 00:35:39.058 --> 00:35:51.058 uh, uh, we're just, we're just in a period where we just don't know. [laughs] So I know we're talking about change today, but I mean, we also have to think of the fact that, you know, our roles deal with change. 187 00:35:51.758 --> 00:36:03.838 The employees in our companies, or even, I guess, AI agents for you, um, are existing in, in an environment where externally they're facing change. Internally, they could be facing change, and 188 00:36:04.938 --> 00:36:18.048 there are a lot of stressors associated with that, right? Right. Um, and we're just entering into a new period where even the way that we run processes change. I was just, um, like, I... 189 00:36:18.058 --> 00:36:32.958 For New York Tech Week, I went and saw a demo of a, um, of a tool where you could have all these agents, and they'd, you know, go out and get your quote for, um, if you're trying to, like, lower your cogs, and they give you an example of these are all of the components. 190 00:36:32.988 --> 00:36:37.578 And oh, wow, we got all these emails back from, like, factories in, in China that they were showing. 191 00:36:37.638 --> 00:36:49.606 And oh, and look when we can draft, you know, all of these images for Instagram, and no human is involved.I mean, it's we're in-- I think we're in such a transformative period, and I feel like I just- Very interesting... 192 00:36:49.646 --> 00:36:54.246 speaking, like, almost too lightly of how things will change. 193 00:36:55.066 --> 00:37:14.606 It's, it's truly unprecedented, and I think one of the, the greatest things to grapple with is we're in an environment right now where you look at some of the entry-level positions, and we're replacing those, and then you have the people who are, you know, higher level, who've kind of gone through those entry-level positions, they've grown. 194 00:37:15.486 --> 00:37:28.926 So how are we, you know, going to translate some of that entry-nevel- entry-level, you know, knowledge to workers and kind of bring them up, um, to that, that level where then they're able to really collaborate with the AI? 195 00:37:28.955 --> 00:37:37.086 And I feel like in a lot of ways, like we s-we talk about vibe coding and, you know, all these other trendy things that are happening. But even, for example- Yeah... yeah, if I, if I use... 196 00:37:37.146 --> 00:37:48.076 chatting with a friend about this, like, if I use ChatGPT, and I use it for, I use it for a lot of, um, like, I'm in Google Sheets now, that's... I've transitioned. 197 00:37:48.466 --> 00:37:59.626 I'm an ex-consultant, so I [laughs] like I grew up in Excel, and some of the formulas are different, and but if there's a certain way that you need to reference information, right? And it's very similar with vibe coding. 198 00:38:00.306 --> 00:38:11.906 We're still at that stage where it requires that knowledge, and I think when you go through the pain of learning, you are able to better communicate the output that you need. Mm. 199 00:38:12.446 --> 00:38:20.706 So how are we going to evolve and get there, right? Depending on, like, how we're treating some of the younger folks who are entering into the market. 200 00:38:20.806 --> 00:38:31.726 I mean, even for, for me, I'm, I'm on the cusp of Gen Z, millennial, but especially for some of the newer folks who are trying to figure out what they're going to do with their lives. I mean, there's just so much change. 201 00:38:31.766 --> 00:38:40.186 It's, it's hard to- Yeah. Yeah, exactly. And, and hopefully this podcast will evolve and, and, and, and, and support people along in their journeys and stuff. 202 00:38:40.226 --> 00:38:52.726 But, um, as you can see here, there's a lot more to talk about, and I love the, the, one of the quotes that was shared around change is not perfect. Mm-hmm. Um, and hopefully this podcast episode is perfect. 203 00:38:52.966 --> 00:38:59.046 If it's not, hey, you know, we tried our best. Uh, Audrey and Fanny, thank you so much. Yeah. Thank you. Thank you. 204 00:38:59.306 --> 00:39:14.286 [outro music]