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[upbeat music] Hey friend, it's David Nebinsky, the community lead here at the Chief of Staff Network.

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We help chiefs of staff through the three Cs, cohorts, curriculum, and community, via Slack with over 900 people in it. Can learn more about our membership, upcoming events and courses at chiefofstaff.network.

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There you'll see our upcoming in-person events, like our Chief of Staff Connect conferences in New York in October and London in November. Hope to see you there.

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This episode is with Adaeze Okafor, the chief of staff at Rethink Food.

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In the episode, you'll learn about how Adaeze got her role in an unexpected way, relationship building, and gelling with her principal, and so much more. This episode was recorded at Bamboo X's NYC office and studio.

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Bamboo X works with seed to late stage startups and their VCs, including Versa, Hinge Health, Close, and NEA, helping them hire top talent across software engineering, data, machine learning, and AI, product management, and design.

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You can learn more about them at www.bamboo-x.com. So excited for you to level up as a chief of staff. Here we go with Adaeze. Adaeze, welcome to the Chief of Staff podcast. We're here at Bamboo.

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Our, our, our friends at Bamboo, recording here in studio New York City, and excited to chat all things chief of staff. Are you ready? Yeah, I'm so ready. [laughs] Um, so we wanna talk about kinda gelling with principal,

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uh, but before that, the gel happens, you have to get a role. Right. [laughs] That's pretty important. How would you say that you got your chief of staff role? Yeah.

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I think the story of how I got my chief of staff role is a little funny upon review. Um, so it's actually the second role that I applied for at the company. Mm.

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The first one I got was basically an internship that I got turned down. I was like, wait, I'm... I can't even get an internship? This is crazy.

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[laughs] Um, but I really, really love the organization and all the work that they do.

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And, um, I saw that they were hiring a chief of staff, and so because I had kind of gone through the process, um, to do the internship, it was really an externship, um, I had met everyone. I had already met my principal.

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Um, I'd already spent time kind of learning the organization, and so I had already kind of done my vetting process. And so when I hit him up and I was like, "Hey, I hear you're looking for a chief of staff.

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Look no further," um- Mm-hmm... that part of it was a lot easier, but most of the work had kind of been done prior. Um, but yeah. And what... And this e- internship, externship, like tell us a little bit more about that.

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Like how did that- Yeah.

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So I had a professor, um, who is really like big in hospitality and restaurants and knew I really cared about food, um, shared this externship opportunity, and at the time I was like not super into it, 'cause I really wanted something- Yeah...

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a little meatier and full, full-time. Um, but he was like, "Hey, you know, Matt's really cool. They're doing really cool, cool work. Um, just have a conversation and see where it leads."

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And so that's how I originally got connected. So the short, the short story is basically, like a lot of chiefs of staff, it was networking. Hmm.

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And then this externship lasted a couple of months, and then- So that's the thing, I didn't get it. I like, I applied- But, but through that process you interviewed? Yeah. Okay.

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I interviewed, and then had my final interview, and I was like, "Cool, I can start Monday," and then I never heard back. [laughs] And I was like, damn, that sucks. Um- [laughs]...

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but this is also, I think, a little bit of a lesson in like what's meant for you is kinda meant for you. Hmm. Um, I'm not sure if I was meant to be at the organization as an extern.

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I knew I had a lot to give, and so, you know, having the ability to at least wait it out and let that chief of staff role come, come up, and seeing it on LinkedIn, um, I felt like the timing was...

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Honestly, it was kismet. And then, and then, so then you saw this open role on LinkedIn, like what? Yeah, I saw it.

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Like- And then I immediately, um, my principal's name's Matt, I immediately messaged Matt being like, "Yeah, yo, what's good? Like- [laughs]... I heard you're looking for a chief of staff. What's going on?"

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Um, and so we ended up getting lunch, and he told me a little bit more about what he was looking for, um, you know, what he really needed out of this role and this person.

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And yeah, then it became kind of a mutual, I would say, vetting process- Hmm... and kind of diligence process of me understanding, okay, where is Rethink at in its growth trajectory?

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What is Matt specifically looking for out of this role? What do I specifically bring to the table to support that? Um, and I think through all of those conversations, we're like, all right, let's give it a shot.

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And- And now we're here... in that one lunch- Yeah... you were assigned. And then, and then that was it. Wow. Yeah. Oh. Yeah. Power lunch, I guess, is what- Love that... that's what the cool kids call it. Uh- Yeah.

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It was, it was like Manhattan power broker. [laughs] I wore my heels and everything. [laughs] And did you, uh... Like, how were you thinking about it? Was there... Was it just like, okay, this...

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'Cause obviously you were thinking about this externship. Um, how did you get like really excited, or what like created this excitement for you in this role? Yeah, I mean, I think for me, I was...

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It, it, it layers the, the chief of staff, you know, skill set, but also the sector really mattered a lot to me.

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Um, so prior to this role, I was in business school, and my whole reasoning to even go to business school was to give myself the opportunity to obviously learn a little bit about management principles.

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Not that much learning, if anybody's listening. We don't study that hard in business school. Um, but to give myself some space to at least explore what a kind of career in food- Hmm...

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and not just food, but the intersection of sustainability and social impact, like what that could look like.

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And I kind of ended my MBA really, really jazzed about, okay, I kind of used this, you know, couple years to test out and hypothesize what it is I care about and where in the food system I ideally would like to live.

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And I was like, okay, cool. LikeHypothesis check. Um, we, we did it. We know that we wanna do this and then on top of that as a chief of staff I kind of see it as like a really beautiful experiment- Mm-hmm...

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in that you get to essentially be in a leadership development program of one, right?

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Like, it's not as popular these days, but you know, the big corporations used to bring in like, you know, 50 students from an MBA program. Yeah.

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And you're gonna rotate and you're gonna learn all this stuff about how the, you know, the corporation works and for me, I've never had aspirations of working for a big organization like that, um, but I, I liked the idea of, you know, having really a, a very macro view of what was going on in an organization, um, the ability to kind of try different things on.

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You're always going to be utilized in a lot of different ways, whether that'd be, you know, you're now interim sales director or now you're in charge of HR or you need to run this hiring process.

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And I think as someone who, um, I would consider myself to be dynamic and interested in a lot of different things and a little bit of a busy body it seemed like the ideal, the ideal role coming out of school, um, to just learn as much as possible.

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And in this power lunch, we're just gonna call it from now on- [laughs]... um, how, like, correct me if I'm wrong but were you interviewing for other chief of staff roles? Like, how did you... Okay, you were. Okay.

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Mm-hmm. So how did you like really know like, like, or how would, how did you start communicating like, "Here's how I wanna, here's how I work," or "Here's... Like, how do you work?"

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Like, seems like, you know, a lot was covered in this, this, this lunch that really, uh, created a great relationship and working dynamic. Like, how, how did this...

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And I'm sure maybe things evolved, but like how did you kinda hit the ground running, uh, so- Yeah. I mean, I think honestly a lot of it, um, so the organization I work for is called Rethink Food.

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Um, one of our core values is vulnerability. Mm.

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And I really appreciate that lunch for so many reasons, but primarily because it was also very transparent and vulnerable conversation of like, you know, this is everything that we've done to date at Rethink.

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There are some things that I feel like we really crushed.

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I think there are some things where, you know, we made mistakes and we had to pivot, and I think having that layer of honesty and understanding about what, where we really were, and, "Hey, I really need someone to support and help me get it to this next level," um, that was I think really, really important and I don't think if, like, if we hadn't had that conversation and there wasn't that layer of vulnerability- Yeah...

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I don't think it would've worked. And do you think that, have you taken that value into like further- Oh, absolutely. Absolutely.

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The other piece of it too is like not all of that kind of foundation was built at the lunch. Mm. Um, so I actually started my chief of staff role as a trial. So it was like an extended tryout if you will.

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Um, and I used to play basketball. I was like, "This is a crazy tryout." [laughs] You know what I'm saying?

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And I, um, so we gave it three months because, you know, I agree and my principal agreed that, you know, having somebody in this role, it's like surgery, right? Mm-hmm. Like, it is very precise what you're trying to do.

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There's already an existing culture. You already have a team. You're bringing somebody in, um, you know, who has a lot of ideas and, you know, their own creative engine, but like making that match happen- Mm...

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um, it doesn't always work out and it's not because one or both- Yeah... parties aren't competent, and so we said like, "Let's give it three months."

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Like, "You're gonna understand and see how the organization's growing and where we're trying to head and we'll see how things kinda land at the end of that." And luckily she made the team. [laughs] Uh,

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I was smiling because you, you walked in here with a Vanderbilt jacket which V for Vanderbilt but also for vulnerability, so I didn't know if, uh- Oh... V's, V's the theme here, but okay.

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So then, uh, this three months and then was it like at the end of the three months then let's reevaluate? Or like what, how... I could imagine you were like, "Okay, I gotta make every day count." Yeah.

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Like, every day has gotta be good. Like, we gotta really, uh, knock the socks off here. Like, what, how were you thinking about like,

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like that period of being success and leading to like the outcome that, you know, I can ima- like, I don't, I don't wanna put words in your mouth, but like I can imagine that like you wanted the three months to go well so then you would get a full time.

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So, but like- Yeah... how did you, uh, make sure that that trial period, like went really well?

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Yeah, I mean, honestly it was a lot of stuff that I learned in school of just like kind of general management principles and I think like, you know, everyone has a, a different style of doing this, but I just spent a lot of time trying to observe and listen and understand.

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Mm. Um, because at the end of the day even though a chief of staff is primarily there for their principal, ultimately even in the title is the staff. Mm.

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So you gotta like be about the staff and understand the staff and the context and the environment that the organization is operating in. And so I just spent a lot of time like in different parts of the organization.

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I pretty much spoke to every single person who worked there. I spent time in different parts of the operation. We're a very operation- Mm... like driven business. We literally produce thousands of meals- Mm...

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every day and transport them to different parts of the city, and so that was really important for me so I could really, when someone in the future came up to me I at least had a baseline understanding of where they were coming from.

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So that was one piece of it. The second piece actually, and shout out to the Chief of Staff Network. Whoo. Um, I did the fundamentals course, which was really, really helpful in just like setting me up for success.

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Mm.Okay. Day one, day 30, day 60, day 90, you're trying to get to learn your principal.

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You're trying to understand what their constraints are, how they make decisions, and giving like, really, really solid advice and also tools, um, to be successful.

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So I, I think the first fundamentals course started like, my second day on the job, and I was like, "Oh my God, this couldn't be more perfect. I have to sign up." [laughs] I think I'm remembering a DM right here.

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[laughs] I think I messaged you. I was like, "Oh my God, I know the deadline was before, but I have to be [laughs] in this course." We honor the deadlines for people that are- Yeah... listening.

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The deadlines are important. [laughs] But the course hasn't started yet. [laughs] Ah, okay. So then what else have you, you've been doing to like, continue to develop the relationship? Yeah. I think just spending time.

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Um, that's like, the best advice- Mm... um, I think. And, uh, off, you know, off mic, off camera, was just saying it's like any relationship and you have to devote time to it.

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I think, um, you know, I feel fairly fortunate. We work in an organization and kind of at the nexus of hospitality and, you know, we, we do a lot of events, we host a lot of events- Yeah... go to a lot of things.

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And so it's really nice to actually have, you know, that out of office time where it's still work, but you're getting to understand who the principal is, other people in their orbit, um, and just like, continually like, spending time, um, because that's the best way that you're really gonna gel and understand who they are.

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Um, the other piece I wanted to say though is like, you know, on this topic of gelling, uh, you know, my principal and I are very different. Mm.

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Um, and I think we've created kind of a, a base layer of understanding and like, a shared way of getting things done.

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Like, there's an element of urgency and pace and speed that we both really value, but we also are very different people, and I think as much as it's important to gel, like, you also have to honor the fact that like, you are different people, and that's part of like, what makes it work, right?

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Yeah. Um, and so like, I'm very methodical. I used to be a researcher. I thought for a long time I was gonna get a PhD. My principal was a chef in a three- Mm-hmm... Michelin star restaurant.

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Like, those things sometimes align really well, and sometimes he's like, "You're adding too many pieces to the process," and I was like, "We need the process." [laughs] "We need a system. We can't just do it."

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And other times it's like, no, we actually just need to have the pace- Mm... and to just get it done and cross the thing off the to-do list.

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So I think like, having that, those differences are kind of what make it symbiotic and like, a- as s- as successful as possible. The ingredients in, in the dish, yeah. Exactly. I- Boom. Yeah. [laughs] I...

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No more food, f- food jokes from me. I think I got my one and done there- No... as, um- Bring them on... [laughs] I feel like I- I'm using so many puns at work. Always appetite. We have an appetite list.

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[laughs] And I, ugh, am like doing it without trying. So... This is gonna be a, a seven course podcast. Um, right now we're on the third course. Um, the...

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When you said just spending a lot of time, is that in the 9:00 to 5:00 time, or is that like... Yeah. W- Are there other

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times that like, you're like, "Okay, we prioritize a Saturday walk," or like, w- how would you like, yeah, is there new time that you've created or like, you know, what, where, where, where's the time and when does the time happen?

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Yeah. I think definitely within the 9:00 to 5:00. Um, and I think it evolves over time. So in the beginning it was me just like, being like, "Hey, I see you're like, talking to this person.

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I'm just gonna join this meeting." You know? Um, and now it's also, it's that plus dedicated time within 9:00 to 5:00. Um, co-locating. Mm. So we have different locations. Um, so co-locating matters.

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And then I would also say, um, time spent outside of 9:00 to 5:00. So like I said, you know, a lot of events.

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And so even in that like, you know, we finish work but the event doesn't start until 7:00, even that like, time can be valuable.

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Um, even if you're just kinda shooting the shit, talking about the Knicks, whatever, like, that time spent is really important.

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And then a portion of our work does involve travel, and I think like, any time you travel with another person, um, it also- Mm... helps you to build understanding, and you just like, get to spend time with them.

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Um, something I didn't say actually was a different chief of staff process that I was with, that I was involved in. Um, my final interview was actually a trip. I was traveling with- Whoa... a principal abroad.

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So, and the, the thinking there was like, if you can, you know, gel when you're super jet lagged, you know, maybe something isn't sitting right with you that you ate, you know, God forbid your passport got stuck at custom.

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Like, you know, just all the things that happen when you travel internationally, like, if all of those things can happen and yet you guys still kind of gel at the end, that that's probably a really good indicator.

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Um, and ultimately we did. But, you know, VC markets really, really were tough- Mm... out there, so that's all I can say. That was to travel for a trip to see- Yeah... or like, was there actual- I was at work. Okay.

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It was work. I was gonna say, like- Yeah. No. It's not, not just vibes. Although- [laughs]... you know, just vibes would've been cool, too. Um, no, it was for a conference. Okay. Okay. Yeah. Yeah. Okay.

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Um, thanks for sharing that part. That's, um, I agree. I know someone who said, um, he's like, "If I start a company, I would want that person to go to Burning Man with him." Mm.

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[laughs] And, you know, cliche aside or et cetera, it's like, hey, like, I've never been to Burning Man, so I can't like, actually say what it's like, but it seems like it's definitely like a-Uh, an emotional rollercoaster, highs, lows, physical, spiritual, emotional, et cetera.

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And, like, that's what I think is, like, starting a company is, like, together. And so similarly, I don't know, I'm not advocating for- [laughs]...

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you know, chief of staff to go to Burning Man, um- I mean, but, like, if someone wants to sponsor me- [laughs]... please. [laughs] You know, uh, it's August, so there is some time. If, if, um,

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you know, if that happens, let us know. Give us a shout-out for that idea. Uh, and if you just wanna, you know, give us a voucher to some plane tickets to say, "Hey, that was a good idea.

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You had this person travel out, now this person is crushing it in the role," like we b- because the trip, now that means that you should have a trip. Here's just like- Okay... you know, five $500, uh, JetBlue.

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Like- Yeah... you know where to find us. Literally. Let's make it happen. [laughs] Manifesting it, you know? That's what we're, we're all about here. Yeah. Uh, so has there been... Like, how have you...

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Did you have to gel a lot with the executive leadership team, too? Yeah. I think because it's a small team, um, that also was a part of it, too.

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Um, and I think, like, you really have to take your principal's lead as to how- Mm... to do that. Um, but yeah, absolutely. It's super important because that's essentially how the work gets done. And so

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one-on-one time, in-person time with those people, too? Absolutely. Um, so after, after I had kind of gotten my feet wet, I basically started, um, my own, like, one-on-one. So- Mm...

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like, my boss would have one-on-ones with everybody on the leadership team- Yeah... and I, too, would, you know, on the off weeks have, um, one-on-one time.

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And I think, like, any peer or employee, you know, everybody is a little bit different. So, you know, some folks are, like, very to the point, "I have my tasks on Monday. This is what I wanna talk about.

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It's really tight, 30 minutes." Yeah. Other people, "Hey, let's get a drink after work." Other folks, "I would love to get dinner, like, every month."

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And I think, like, to the extent that you're, um, able to kind of customize, um, and meet people where they're at, I think that, I've learned, goes a really long way. Mm. Being empathetic to them. Yeah. Mm-hmm. For sure.

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The... And so what's, like, what's on the menu these days for you? Mm. The menu. [laughs] How do you... [laughs] Yeah, yeah. Going.

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Um, so what's so interesting, and honestly why I really love the w- like, love this work and, and my role is because I get to do so many different things. Mm.

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Um, after my, my three months', uh, trial was up, um, we basically re-scoped the role. Mm. It's still chief of staff, but really focused a lot more on, um, our government relations portfolio, um, fundraising.

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Board management, I think is pretty standard for chiefs of staff. Um, and then strategy and business operations.

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And so all of those things in tandem are a lot, but I think having the opportunity to flex a little bit more and maybe, like, spread my wings a little bit beyond what a traditional chief of staff might do, have direct reports, um, was really cool.

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And it really- And you have direct reports right now? Yes. Wow. Yeah. I used to have more, but I was like, "Guys- [laughs]... this is a lot." So... And then you still have the chiefing- Yeah... responsibilities.

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Exactly. And 'cause so the now it's about a year and a half into the role. Mm-hmm. Um, and the company's been growing throughout. Yeah. Uh, meals are continuing to get out there more and more. Yeah.

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Um, do you think you're gonna re-scope it again soon? That's a great question. Probably. I think, like, you know, in startup land, you know, one year feels like three or four. Yeah.

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And so, like, even thinking about where we were when I started versus where we are now, um, is night and day. Like, I think obviously the, the core of the work is the same.

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We're providing meals to communities across New York City who need them, but the mechanisms by which we're doing that, the partnerships that we have, the volumes at which we're doing them, um, is all changing and continuing to evolve.

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So yeah, I think so. Okay. Stay tuned. [laughs] Who knows what kind of conversations are getting sparked from this pod, you know? [laughs] We're getting flight tickets- It-... we're getting r- re-scoping, you know.

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Exactly. Um, I hope people, yeah, does it, likes to get flewed out, please fly me out. [laughs] Fly me out. We're now on the fifth course for people that are, are following along. Yeah. Yeah. Um, the...

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So you mentioned that, you know, gelling has been really important. Um, what else has, like, stood out to you that has been, like, basically essential for you in your role? Is there certain tools, approaches, templates?

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I know we already talked about the fundamentals course, but, like, is there anything else that you're like, "This is how I get stuff done"? Mm.

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Um, I think structurally, uh, just starting the week off, um, so me, my CEO, and his, uh, executive assistant all have a stand-up- Mm... every, every single Monday when he gets in. Um, and that's, that has been core.

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Um, because, you know, even from an administrative level of like, "Hey, these are your meetings for, for the week," and, you know, his EA and me are very tightly, you know, you know, tightly, uh, collaborative.

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So having that, like, 30 minutes where we're just like, "Okay, here's everything on the calendar. How do you wanna follow up with these people? What's the status on this?"

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And then from my lens, I'm like, "Hey,You know, we talked about this partnership I'm kind of hitting a roadblock here, or, "Hey, let's talk about how we want to do X, Y, and Z."

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Like, having that time just, like, sets the best tone for the week. Um, and then it gives kind of the jumping off point for touching base. Like, "Hey, this is how this thing is going that we talked about on Monday."

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And then also a midweek check-in. Mm. Um, so at first we just had the, the stand up, which I was like, "Okay, this is solid." But then I was like, "Yo, I feel like I'm getting lost."

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[laughs] Like, there's so much going on. Like, I feel like I'm not super... I might not be super aligned with what you have in mind.

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And so having that midweek check-in where we're checking in on projects, we're checking in on people, we're checking in just, like, on each other. Like- Mm... how are you doing?

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Um, especially during, like, the busy, the busy times, um, has also been really, really helpful. And then also sometimes just, like, hopping on the phone. Mm. Um, like I said, we, we have, um, different locations.

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We're always kind of in different places in the city, so I think just, like, being able to hop on the phone is really helpful. I ordered a medium rare. This is medium well.

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Like, let's just quickly, like, what happened here? Yeah. You know, just a quick check in on that. Totally. Um, the... You mentioned the EA. Mm. Um, was the EA there?

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And by the way, the midweek check-in is kind of underrated. I like that. Yeah. No- Yeah... it's super underrated. I'm, like, I'm such a big fan. Yeah. Such a big fan.

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Uh, I'd rather have a midweek check-in than an end of week closeout. Uh- Mm. Do you feel like that's controversial? Um, well, sometimes, like, I think with the... Like, anytime you check in, I think it's like,

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what happened? Yeah. Like, did the food come out or not, you know? Yeah. There's kind of a... Well, by the end of the week you can kind of, like, catch up if it's like a Thursday and you're like, "Okay, now I...

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Like, I really gotta focus, hit these goals for the week." Mm-hmm. Um, but yeah. So I think, like, there's... And I mean, anytime you have one of these conversations, there's like, what happened? You know? Yeah.

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Where do you, where do you stand? What's, what's on the plate, you know? Um- Yeah... these, these- There's like-... it's- It's too easy. [laughs] Too easy. Sh- I mean, I only see peas. Where are the carrots, you know?

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[laughs] Um, so yeah, there's, like, pressure anytime you have, like, a meeting, you know? It's like, where are you at? Yeah. Sure. Um, so okay, so that's the midweek and then EA. Was there always an EA when you started?

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Uh, yeah. So there were, there was a different EA. We brought someone new on, um, around the time that I joined. Um, but that was also part of the conversation when I started- Yeah...

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with, like, I want you as a chief of staff exclusively, not as an admin.

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And I think that distinction was really helpful because it said to me, like, "Oh, you understand what this role is and what it does and how it can be beneficial."

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Um, and then also that helped me kind of explain and then ultimately teach the rest of the organization what an EA is because there was a really clear delineation.

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Like, hey, you wanna get on Matt's calendar, you need something sent out to- Yeah... a partner, whatever, you go to the EA. You wanna talk about business- [laughs]... you come talk to me.

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[laughs] So you were communicating that out? Yeah. So when I, I mentioned, like, when I was, um, kind of doing my, like, listening tour, if you will- Yeah... and just trying to understand part of...

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You know, I would, if it was a 30-minute conversation, I would spend 22.5 of those minutes hearing the other person out, and then I'd also, like, share a little bit about where I was coming from, you know, my background and then, like, my role, like, what is the chief of staff?

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Because I think there's still a little bit of mystery to it. Mm. Um, and definitely in, in different sectors.

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Um, I previously worked in policy and was adjacent to the government and, you know, you have that, that hierarchy of a chief- Yeah... of staff and the understanding behind it is very clear.

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Um, so, you know, just, like, bringing people along for the ride and, and helping them understand what it is was also part of what I was doing. Got it. Got it. Um, midweek check-in. Mm-hmm.

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Uh, and I lo- love, I love this around just, like, communicating the role. I feel like that's definitely a piece that people can get hung up on. Like, not, not- Yeah... it's not their, their fault.

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It's just more around- Mm... people are like, "Who's this person?" Yeah. Um- And, like, she's not an EA, but she's, like, not a CEO. She went to business school. She has a lot to say, you know? Yeah.

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[laughs] Like, who is she, you know? And just like- That's why she's on the podcast. Yeah. [laughs] She loves to yap. Um, yeah. That, just explaining that for folks I think is really, really useful. Okay. Um, the...

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Is, is AI a topic for you all? Is that, like... Okay. Absolutely. Okay. Absolutely. I am like give me all the AI.

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I mean, I, I don't know how many nonprofit leaders you've, you've interacted with or spoken to, but, like, the name of the game has always been efficiency. Mm.

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You wanna drive that overhead number as low as possible so you can maximize your impact. You know, you don't want to receive a dollar of a donation and most of it is going to cover the lights, the people- Mm...

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all of the stuff. Um, some of it does need to cover those things, but we wanna maximize as much as possible going out to community. And so honestly, like, AI's been amazing- Mm...

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for, you know, just, like, helping me get the work done. Um, because like I said, I have development, I have government relations, I have strategy, I have business operations, now a little bit of communications. Mm.

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Like, there's always something added to the plate. And so if I can spend a third of the time doing the thing-Sign me up And this is ChatGPT, this is Claude, like what? Honestly, all of the above.

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We, we, um, now have a enterprise, like, you know, through Google, um, Gemini- Hmm... and which I really love.

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Um, but I've used all of them, and I've tried pretty much everything, and I think everything down fra- down to, like, you know, help me craft this, like, somewhat delicate email, um, to, you know, getting the first pass of, you know, a JD, all of those things that, you know, kind of take some brain power.

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Yeah. Um, and having someone, someone, ChatGPT, do the first pass is super helpful. Seventh and final, of course. Okay. Um, what would you say to,

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or what else would you say to existing chiefs of staff or aspiring chiefs of staff? Mm. Um, I'll start with aspiring chiefs of staff. Um, I'll say do your homework. Mm.

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Do your homework, do your homework, do your homework.

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Um, in my experience, when I talk to other folks who have churned out of chiefs of staff roles, it's not because they weren't competent, but it's often because they weren't necessarily the right fit for that principal.

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And as much as you are trying to be like, "Hire me, I'm good, I'm competent, I can do the things. I have a lot of ideas," like, you should also be interviewing your principal too, right?

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Um, understanding, like, okay, do they share that kind of baseline- Hmm... working style or way of doing things that I do? There might be some, like, stylistic things. Yeah.

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Um, but, like, understanding, like, core, core, core, core, is this a person that I like, you know, I'm gonna, like, run hard for? And if you're at all unsure about that, it's probably not the right fit.

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Um, so that's my, like, number one advice for aspiring chiefs of staff. And then for the current chiefs of staff, like, just keep up the good work, man. Like- Yeah. [laughs]... we, we be out here hustling.

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Folks are like, "What do you do?" And you're like, "What don't I do?"

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[laughs] Like, um, it can be really challenging, especially, I know in an, in a job environment where, like, you know, maybe folks don't have access to the same resources or ability to hire, um, as they have previously.

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And so I know more is being asked of us, so just keep up the good work. Keep fighting the good fight. [laughs] Love it. Plus, plus one, plus- Yeah... cherry on top. [laughs] Uh, I don't know. There was that...

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More food stuff. Yeah. [laughs] And if people wanna stay in touch, they can reach out to you on LinkedIn, et cetera? Absolutely, Adeze Okoli on LinkedIn. All right. Thank you so much. Yeah. Thanks, David. Woo!

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