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[upbeat music] Hey friend, it's David Nebinsky, the community lead at the Chief of Staff Network.

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We help chief of staff through the three Cs, cohorts, curriculum, and community via Slack with over nine hundred people in it. You can learn more about membership, events, and courses at chiefofstaff.network.

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There you'll see our upcoming in-person events like our Chief of Staff Connect conferences in New York in October and London in November. Hope to see you there.

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This episode of the Chief of Staff Podcast is with Richard Hoffman and Eve Staszce-Sizin. The topic of this group chat podcast episode was creating value.

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So in this episode, you'll hear stories, examples, and ideas related to creating value as a chief of staff.

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We know you're doing incredible work as a chief of staff, and we hope this episode will further help you see, understand, and showcase the value that you're creating.

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This episode was recorded at BambooX's NYC office and studio.

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BambooX works with seed to late stage startups and the VCs, including Vercel, Hinge Health, Closa, and NEA, helping them hire top talent across software engineering, data, machine learning and AI, product management, and design.

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You can learn more about them at bamboo-x.com. So excited for you to lev-level up as a chief of staff. Here we go with Richard and Eve. Eve, do you want to share a story about a recent project,

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um, that you worked on or how you've been thinking about kind of, uh, creating value in your role? Mm. Yeah, maybe I'll start really high level. When I first entered this role, I was also questioning my ROI. Yeah.

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And so I opened up a book at some co-working space and distilled into, like, how do you bring value to any team?

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And it's make money, save money, contribute to a culture that becomes more productive because of you and your presence, and then lastly, there was a point around, uh, contributing to breakthroughs and innovation.

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And so I've had those four buckets top of mind, especially when I think about what am I giving to Arthur and just in general as I move through my career.

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So I'd definitely say, like, you know, save money, make money, I think as chief of staffs, and I'm a head of ops/COS, it's a lot of contributing to the enablement of that, but then also, of course, absolutely contributing to culture and also whether it's processes or, you know, people ops that enable, uh, productivity and breakthrough.

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So I've been-- I, I think definitely those are like the... that's kind of the abstract, and I'm sure we'll get into the examples. But that's- Yeah... that's how I like to frame it for myself. Yeah.

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So there was this book, and then when you started this role, it-- How many months has it been? Eleven. Eleven. Yeah. Okay. So we're still in the months. Okay. Yes. Okay.

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I thought it would be funny if you're like- Oh, gosh... "Actually, it's twenty-four months." Uh, but that's two years. We- Yeah. But, uh- Almost a year. Yeah. Did you--

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Like, when you started the role, like, was this kind of conversation around, like, why we need the role and what- Mm-hmm... we're looking for and, like, how to hit the ground running.

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Did something like that come up at all? It started first as very much like an ops manager type of role, and it quickly evolved into leading ops and chief of staffing.

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And it's really in our-- I think not only at Arthur, but in general, ops is so interlaced into everything, right? Mm-hmm.

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Like, ops is so cross-functional, and so my CEO, like my principal, really needed somebody who had visibility, not only like at breadth, but also could get into the weeds.

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And so yeah, it definitely evolved into someone who could support him in both that like horizontal and vertical perspective.

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Uh, so yeah, it was, it was ki- a very natural progression, I would say, and I've been loving it since.

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I think it's great to be, again, like really in the weeds and then also supporting in that sort of strategic element with my CEO. Yeah. Love. Yeah.

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Richard, did you have like a high level framework or do you just like just get your hands dirty and you're looking at receipts?

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'Cause that-- it seems like you also work on finance stuff, so you're just kind of like looking at, "Okay, today the numbers went up," or today... Yeah. Um. [laughs] Well, I've, I've been really lucky.

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I, uh, I jumped straight into a super early stage startup, fresh off a seed round of funding, and my mandate from the get-go was to get my hands dirty in partnerships and new sales.

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So the question of how to drive new value was pretty prescriptive right out of the gate, scale existing partnerships and find new ones. So I was lucky in that the goals were very, very clear for me.

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I didn't really come into an environment where I had to make my own role, so to speak.

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And from day one, it was just working with existing partners, scaling what was working, figuring out what wasn't working, and replacing it.

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So because we're so at such early stage and we're launching new products at a very fast rate, that cross-functional innovation is very much baked into everything we're doing.

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We're not really at a point where we're evaluating programs in silos and determining what more to invest in. Like, we are full bore on the thesis of the business, right?

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So coming in, the framework was just attack sales and build relationships with key stakeholders and partners and prospects as quickly as possible. I'm actually coming up on my ten-month mark. Ooh. So I'm pretty new too.

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So I think my mand- my mandate's actually becoming a little bit more operational. It's funny.

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When I came in, the focus was enablement and acceleration of partnerships, basically faster velo-- increased velocity, velocity to revenue, um,

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with the expectation that as those, the customer base grew, I would take on more ops.

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We're starting to hit that point where I'm taking on a lot more responsibility for servicing existing customers and helping them scale their, uh, their programs with us.

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So I'm now getting to a point where I get to flex a little bit more of a truly operational muscle, managing the finances against execution for customers, the revenue that's coming in.

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So when, when I came in, it was very heads downGetting into the weeds on very value additive programs that were clearly just scale relationships one to one now it's becoming a little bit more abstracted and cross-functional and touching a lot more product roadmap management, which is really cool.

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It's a new skill set for me, something I'm leaning into learning.

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It was very-- I f- I consider myself very lucky that I came i-into an environment that was very prescriptive in what I needed to do because it just made it very easy [chuckles] Yeah... from the get-go.

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Not easy to do the work, but easy to know what to focus on. Now it's actually getting harder as I have a lot more competing priorities.

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Now I have to actually think about a little bit more where my time should be spent because things might be less value additive, because there are things that might be higher leverage but not quite as high, uh, like, value opportunity.

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So- What's an example of that? Yeah. So for example, there are-- You know, we're a, um, a fintech company, and the fintech ecosystem is deeply partnership driven.

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And there are partnerships that might not accrue revenue in the short term but might have a much higher potential yield in the longer term.

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That time might be super valuable, but so too could time be spent with direct sales customers that could potentially yield revenue much sooner.

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So those types of trade-offs are st- now starting to present themselves a lot more, and it's a new area I'm now-- It's a new kind of, um, evaluation that I'm navigating for myself.

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Do I spend my time with this longer term, potentially higher yield investment or the shorter term, potentially smaller investment?

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And that's just a new area we're finding ourselves in because of the nature of the business and because of my role within it.

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And do you-- Are you having active conversations with the CEO to say, like, "What should I do here?" Yeah, absolutely. I mean, it's a daily conversation. We sit next to each other. We talk constantly.

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And he's generally pretty clear with me.

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I mean, we're-- It, it-- Things move so quickly that we're resetting and, uh, sort of realigning expectations literally daily, sometimes hourly, based on the latest call I had or the latest call he had.

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And we're almost always aligned preemptively on the decisions that we make. Sometimes there's a little bit of disagreement. We just figure it out real time and go.

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But, um, clarity on what to do is n-not something I've yet encountered, which I'm really g-grateful for.

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Eve, for you, d- is this, um, is the conversation with the team and priorities, is that as frequent as it is for Richard in terms of, like, hourly or daily or...? No. That's really impressive.

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[chuckles] I'd be like, oh my goodness, whiplash left and right. But in our case, I would say it aligns more with our, like, monthly and quarterly OKRs, right?

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So I mean, we k- especially, you know, seeing, like, for example, this quarter it's really focused on go-to market, and so I see myself stepping into that a lot more in terms of-- I was telling David this at our-- at the last Chief of Network event, but I feel like I'm very much the chief of staff to a go-to market leader these days because that's just obviously where my CEO is super focused.

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Um, we're hiring more in that space. We hire a new fractional CRO also. So it's like that's really where the, the team obviously ne-needs more support. So I'm, I'm stepping into that.

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I'm sure, like, y- similarly to you, it's like you have to ramp up to whatever is kind of the focus of the company, whether it's, yeah, if it's growth, product, et cetera, and tapping into that.

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So I wouldn't say that it's, um, resetting and realigning as frequently, but I've definitely seen my role shift absolutely with the evolution of what the focus is for the company based on the quarter/month.

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Yeah, it's funny because so, one, whiplash, yeah. [chuckles] That's the case. Two, like, I, I thrive in that chaos, and I always have my big initiatives that I'm just sort of managing forward in the background.

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Like, I manage our, our finance function. Um, I manage our product marketing function, so I-- my background's in marketing, so I do all of our messaging and positioning and copywriting.

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Those are just kind of big things I'm always moving forward. Yeah.

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And those are just the assumed constraint on my time, and then it's the little things day to day like, "Hey, this customer said this about this competitor," or, "We learned about this opportunity.

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This prospect is on the market for this thing. Like, go attack that opportunity this afternoon and clear other things." It doesn't necessarily preclude me focusing on the things I'm always working on.

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It's just, like, maybe, like, fifty percent of my time is always on stuff, and then the other fifty is, like, be ready for anything. Just go get- Totally... what you need to do. Totally.

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I definitely, uh, at the beginning, I didn't realize, like, how much time and energy I should allocate for the unexpected. And so I find at least, like, you were saying fifty percent.

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I'm thinking, like, more ten to twenty percent at least day to day is, like, who knows what's gonna happen. We were talking about the fires that we were dealing with today.

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But having this buffer is super important to me, whether it's, oh, there's gonna be a problem to solve and it's gonna be needing, you know, my hands or getting other team members involved, or it's also this buffer time to add more value.

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And maybe it's like-- I'll give, I'll give an example.

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It's like, uh, we're now actually leaning in pretty heavy into the developer relations motion, and so I know that we wanna get out there, get present at more demo nights and such.

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And so, uh, just, you know, if I have some free time networking in this space to see, hey, how can we get our lead engineers doing demos?

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And so it's, it's such a small thing, but it's, like, picking up, I think, because a chief of staff a lot of times, like chief accountability officer, it's like for those action items that it's like, oh, this is-- who does this really belong to?

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Or, you know, it's a new initiative. Has this bes- been assigned to anybody? It's, um, I definitely see, like, you and I stepping in in that way. Totally.

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And that buffer, again, having that extra time and energy allocated is super key to being able to either solve for the unexpected or create the good unexpected. Yeah.

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Well, if you go back to how you started talking about, like, you can earn more money, you can cut costs, or you can drive innovation, I would say that nicely fits into that third bucket. Like,

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let's say-Drive innovation is kind of a broad topic. Capture new opportunity, find new ways to connect with new customers you're not currently talking to.

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If, in my opinion, um, you know, the chief of staff role is really a chief connector and one of the core responsibilities is to know more about what everyone's up to than one team individually knows- Totally...

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about anyone else. Like, a core function of the role is to recognize opportunity before anyone else does and to connect that dot to the right stakeholder or just be that person if there isn't someone who can step in.

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So- Yeah... maybe s- stepping into an opportunity for a dev night for me, it would be connecting with a new prospect because we learned about some sort of competition or market movement.

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Like, there's so many different ways that value can materialize, and it obviously can be earning more money or cutting costs, but it also can just be pursuing new things that no one else sees because their head's down on what they do and when it is you- literally your job to see that opportunity.

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Totally. And it's opportunity and also, like, I think about it as, like, where is there flow and where is there friction across the team? Mm. Yeah.

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And so, um, it's exciting because arguably I would say the chief of staff has the greatest visibility into what's happening.

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We were talking about kind of like breadth-wise but also, like, in the weeds, and so that's something that, like, a CEO and principal isn't, you know, isn't aware of day to day, and so it's really like a chief of staff is connecting the dots and then also creating new dots in kind of like the way that you're sharing.

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Yeah. Well, it's one of the unique aspects of the role, I think maybe the most unique.

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It- I think it's maybe the only role that is gonna have cross-functional strategic oversight comparable to a CEO and anyone else in the leadership team, but also hands-on experience or very near to hands-on experience- Mm...

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in the weeds. Like, I can't think of any other role that has that, has a comparable perspective, who can really get how everything connects at the top but also understand what it looks like to execute.

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And that perspective, being able to deploy it against opportunities is value added when done well and right. 100%. Chief accountability officer. Yeah. [laughs] That was a good one. [laughs] I don't know if I heard that.

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Trademark that. Yeah. [laughs] Rename the network. Yeah. [laughs] Have... Did you just come up with that? No, someone told me that a long time ago. Oh, yeah? I can't even pinpoint who. Oh, yeah.

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But yeah, that or I think chief accountability officer and also chief diplomat- Mm... is what I feel like as well. Right? As an accountability

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officer, um, is there ever a situation where, like, going back to this idea around, like, creating value, is there ever this like, "Well, I'm account, uh, accountable to this smaller initiative and...

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But now I'm trying to be more strategic, or I'm trying to like, you know, uh, go into that," I think the third or the fourth bucket you were talking about.

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Like, have ever, like, the being accountable and pushing things forward on a small scale held you back from pushing forward on a bigger scale? Hmm. I've definitely noticed that I've had this tendency of like,

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just do the action item so that you can do it because, okay, because it's my role- Yeah... to be accountable, and what will it say the team... to the team if I'm not?

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But that being said, and my, my CEO gave me this advice of like, "In your role, trust yourself to know which balls can drop and which ones can't."

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And that's like, you know, obviously with the systems level thinking and the critical thinking that obviously a great chief of staff like needs to have, it's like practicing that.

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And so I think, yes, um, there's been instances where I've, you know, felt like I'm in the weeds and, you know, checking off the mundane.

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But at the same time, I think that I've also felt empowered to ask for permission to let go of certain things, of like, "Hey, I actually don't think that this is contributing and driving the needle as much as like these other things."

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And you say it just like that? Or is there like... [laughs] I, I, I feel like that slash like gently like, "Hey," like, "this is on my list." Mm. "I'll bring it to, like, leadership. 'Hey, this is on my list.

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Uh, I'm working on it. To be honest, I also have XYZ on my plate.' Like, how important do we feel this is- Mm... right now?" And I...

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And that also, I think that's like selfishly that relieves me of feeling like guilty and, you know, bad about not m- moving this little thing forward. But truly, it's like sometimes...

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And you probably feel this, right, Richard, in terms of like if things are moving so fast in the direction, some things become way more important, um, versus like the day before.

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And so it's like almost having that permission and the alignment of like, "Okay, we can let this go, or we can punt it until later." So yeah. I think it's just better to like over-communicate- Yeah...

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and, and like get aligned with your leads. Yeah, absolutely. It's funny because when you said chief diplomat, my mind went to, like, picking your battles well- Mm... and balls dropping, picking your battles well. Oh.

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It's so important to know when to really, really go hard on an issue and make that the thing that you have to stand your ground on, make happen, push emphatically, and then when to say, "You know what?

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This is just not that important in the grand scheme of things." I'm super lucky in that my CEO, my principal, is fantastic about giving me the space and trusting me genuinely to make those decisions for myself.

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And for me it tends to be more of like a, "Hey, here's what I'm doing. Just if you wanna gut check me on that, let me know. Tell me to pivot."

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Um, on bigger things, there are certain topics where we're very clearly aligned, like I don't make those calls.

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And we've figured out where the, um, the guardrails around the topics that he lets me take and run and just gives me feedback on versus where he wants to make the decisions. That's been...

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I- it's honestly a, a huge unlock for me and allows us to go so much faster because I think at this point we're very, very clear on who owns the decision on what, who owns the accountability to who.

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When he's working on something that I take and run on my own, if he makes decisions on my behalf or does something in my lane, he lets me know and treats me as the decision-maker on that, which is fantastic.

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So a lot of this is really dependent on just spectacular rapport with your principal, which it sounds like you're in a pretty good place, for I am and- Both of us... um, I think that's actually a huge part of...

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It- it's sort of an inescapable part of the conversation- Mm...

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for valueAdditive chiefs of staff, the organization and the people that the chief of staff have to interact with need to be ready to receive the value which is inherently cross-functional and in pursuit of innovation beyond just the can you make numbers go up and down thing.

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Yeah. Was there anything that you did in particular to get to that point with your principal? Um, that's a good question. I don't... Well, I think there's two things. One, he's naturally a very trusting person and

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puts faith in people to do their best work. Um, and that's all credit to him. I think that I tend to go out of my way to set a pretty unreasonable standard, and I tend to fall short of it.

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But luckily, usually I get close enough to it that it's workable.

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And so in that environment that he created for me and my desire to do really, really well by him and by the company and by myself, it's good stuff came of it.

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You do that for nearly a year at this point, and, uh, a pretty strong relationship is gonna come out of it.

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This-- On this topic, is there anything related to, like, performance reviews that, um, are of note for on this topic of, like, creating value? Was... Are there, like, clear metrics that you're being measured against?

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Is it... Yeah. No clear metrics on my end. [laughing] I was gonna say, uh, no. [laughs] That'd be awesome. I don't think it would be possible, I think. Yeah, it'd be super tough.

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There's so much that's intangible and invaluable, I feel like.

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So it's funny, I actually, uh, I got this advice a long time ago, never did it, and then I started doing it for this role when I realized I was in this exact dynamic.

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'Cause, like, I don't know how I'd measure progress, how a performance review would work. So I started, I send my, um, my CEO an email at the end of the week,

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pain points, what's on my mind, and what I'm gonna try to get done next week. Um, and then, [clears throat] excuse me, I actually every three months basically recap,

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like, the biggest accomplishments and pain points and frustrations. That holds me accountable to the things that I know are the needle movers because we're talking about it because that's how priorities are set.

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And in the absence of clear metrics, it just gives me sort of like north stars to work against.

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And over time, you just kinda create a paper trail of documentation to see are you tracking against the things that you say are important to you. Um, it's kinda working. Yeah. [laughs] Awesome. I'm curious.

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You know, it's not perfect. Like... Yeah. You got a better idea? Yeah. Toss it out. What's that format again? And, like, how does... Also it must shift, right? 'Cause things are changing week to week- Yeah...

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in terms of, like, what you actually write down. It's like- Yeah... you can have a plan on Friday and then Monday morning- [laughs] Well, it's, it's funny because...

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So it's, it's, um, pain points, priorities generally on my mind, and send that out Friday religiously to close my week. Sometimes it goes out Monday, but you know.

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Um, it's funny because something will be- 'Cause you gotta record a podcast with David. Now it's, now it's going out today. It's going out today.

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Sometimes it's so funny because sometimes- Try to give you grace if it doesn't happen... something will be, like, a priority, and then two weeks later it'll be, like, on my mind. Yeah, I never got to that thing.

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[laughs] So, like, it- it's really... Even that though is good because it gives you this, like, self-auditable trail to see where you've been, what you've been up to, and, you know, if you're consistently...

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It's, it's just a s- mechanism to hold yourself accountable to yourself and the things that you say are important. And I haven't, like, really tried putting metrics against it.

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Maybe one day, but for the time being, I just use it as a digital diary for accountability in my professional life. Mm-hmm.

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And then for, like, the three-month kind of summary, do you, like, put that into, like, Claude and say, like, "Hey, summarize this," or? No, I haven't tried using a, uh, AI as, like, a personal

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assistant in that manner yet, like a professional therapist yet. Yeah. Maybe one day, but, um, it's a good idea. I'm thinking of it more as just, like, purely a heads down,

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am I doing what I'm s- what I think I should be doing, and how do I feel about how it's going? Eve, thoughts?

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So yeah, I think a lot of the stuff that chief of staffs are tasked with, hard to measure, but if there's any way that you can introduce, like, baseline measurements, I encourage, like,

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other, you know, peers, et cetera, to do so. And let me give an example. Like, I was tasked with, um, procuring a note taker for us so that we'd be more productive. Um, and I, I think there were, like, two elements.

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It was, like, making it a, an initiative and formalizing it as such and then also getting, like, baseline data of, like, how are we doing things right now, like, what's working, what isn't?

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And it's so simple, but, like, procuring the note taker, figuring out, like, a better, you know, meeting policy, figuring out, like, a stronger meeting culture, et cetera.

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And so, you know, taking what's assigned as a task into, like, hey, this is an initiative that's going to...

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Actually, to the book that I was talking about at the beginning of this podcast is, like, that's innovating our processes and the way that we work. So I think there's

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any way that you can do, like, a super quick, like, Slack bot survey, something of the sort, or even integrate it in, you know, capturing metrics into your existing quarterly or semi-annual type of, um, like, company-wide t- uh, surveys, definitely seeing, like, how you can, how you can extract those values- Yeah...

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would be helpful to figuring out the ROI. [laughs] Yeah. Such a relevant topic. We [laughs] actually did the same thing. Um- Right...

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I was, yeah, procuring a note-taking tool, and I was trying to think about, like, how to get the engineering team to use it.

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[laughs] And I was like, "Wait, how much time would you get back writing, uh, tech specs after kickoff calls if you just had the notes laid out for you?"

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And then I thought about how much value that wins back for the business, having those engineering t- hours reallocated.

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And, and literally just hearing you talk about this, I didn't think about it at the time, but, like, I could have just measured out of thin air the value created by winning back engineering hours- Totally...

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which to the point of a chief of staff role needs to be creative.

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Like, sometimes it's not gonna be staring you in the f- staring you in the face how value is added, but if you really think about a task or a problemDeeply enough, like you're saying, making a task an initiative and thinking critically about how it can be a comprehensively valuable thing, you will find a way to measure it and how it's adding value.

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Mm. And if you can't, maybe you shouldn't do it. But- Mm... if you can, then measure it and deliver on it. Mm.

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People that are listening right now, if we need to give you a couple minutes just to, like, to, to pause and be like, "Okay, actually, let me think about all these things," like, totally cool.

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We're, we're still, we're still chatting if you need to take a five-minute break, and then, you know, look through your notes and stuff like that. Um, but yeah, I love that.

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Just like, if you really, like, zone in on, like, okay, is this moving the needle? How is this affecting top line or bottom line? Like, um, that's so interesting.

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A- also, Eve, you, in this book, which you didn't say the name of it in the beginning- And I don't know what it is. [laughs] It was, like, some wisdom dropped on me- Yeah... and I didn't know what that book is.

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Okay, okay, okay. Yeah, it's like the best kind sometimes. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Just- We might be able to, like, search for that after this. But- Yeah...

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you also did say this idea around culture being, like, a, I think a fourth area where, like, do you spend much time in there? Like, is that something that you're thinking about?

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And if so, also, like, how do you think about, like, measuring that? Yeah. I would say, like, a lot of the culture metrics are obviously very closely related to, like, what our head of people, uh, the work that she does.

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But I, I do wanna touch upon, like, this whole... This culture EQ people aspect was one that I was not anticipating stemming into the role. I have definitely realized, like,

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how much I think, at least, in, in the culture, I play a role of being, like, an anonymizer and an aggregator- Hmm... I feel like.

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And so being this, we, we talk a bit about buffers, but also to use that sort of, you know, same, um, same term of, like, a buffer from CEO leadership communication to folks, and then, you know, the team also upwards, and I think that...

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I'd like to think that I contribute to sort of, like, safe space and, like, a space where, you know, s- folks can confide.

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And of course, I have to have integrity for my role, um, and obviously reporting to my CEO, but then at the same time, um, being the space where folks can come and, you know, voice whether it's concerns or i- ideas or whatever.

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Maybe I'll see, you know, someone deserves more recognition for something that they're doing and it's going unseen. I think that, um, I think that's the role that I see myself playing.

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And again, it's not something that I anticipated when I first stepped in, but I think, um, it's something that does contribute to culture 'cause there's a lot of insights, right? Mm.

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That can come from that when they're then thoughtfully delivered to leadership and then also, you know, segue to the head of people. Yeah. What were you anticipating? Did you have something like- I, uh-...

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verveishon in mind? Oh, business, that, those... Yeah, like, [laughs] I, I, I didn't anticip- I guess I just thought it was gonna be more process, systems- Mm... initiatives, OKRs, like, all those buzzwords.

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I think also take my perspective with a grain of salt because I'm coming from more of, like, again, the head of ops/chief of staff role. Yeah.

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And I r- just realize, yeah, the chief of staff piece is really indexed on, um, people and processes. Yeah. Yeah. How do you find that? Like, I...

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Yeah, what role you also play in, like, kind of, like, that more, like, qualitative and, like, conversational, confiding element? Yeah. We're a really small organization, so it's not...

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Like, everyone just kinda talks to everyone. [laughs] There's not a lot of degrees of separation between anyone, but I do find myself sometimes,

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I have, like, out of body moments where I recognize that I'm in this very, um, like, critical personal node in between a bunch of different functions.

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And I was gonna ask, actually, if you've ever encountered situations in which you've had...

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You, you, you used the term anonymizer, but, like, felt like you were put in a position where you knew information that made you... Like, like, you didn't know what to do with it, right?

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Like, where you found yourself, you didn't know how to respond.

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You didn't know what the right answer was, but you [laughs] also knew that you weren't sure if, like, communicating that information f- forward was the right answer.

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I've not personally found myself in that situation, but I have talked to chiefs of staff and other people in seriously cross-functional roles who have.

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For me, it's, you know, I'm really lucky the guys at my company, um, it's small and everyone just talks to everyone constantly.

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So we haven't really gotten yet to that point of, like, personnel abstraction where there's layers to talk through people, but I'm very intrigued at what it looks like to work as a

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aggregator, to use your term, in an organization that might be big enough for that to happen. It's, I think, the toughest part- Yeah... about it, uh, because obviously, like, it's...

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You wanna have this, like, strong trust and rapport with folks, but obviously, there's some, you know, infrequently that's confidential or even, like, I don't even understand- Yeah...

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its fullness, so I, I don't wanna, you know, disclose or mis-disclose whatever it may be.

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And so when put in those positions, I think it's about, like, always, like, obviously validating where folks are coming from, like, why they're asking certain things or voicing whatever it may be.

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But then at the same time, it's, like, honoring that, um, I'm not the person to deliver, like, certain information, whether it be strategic, investor relations, whatever.

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Generally speaking, this is making it sound, you know, like, like, super, like, uh, confidential or whatnot, but it's, like, it's very few topics like that or even, like, people-related- Yeah...

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you know, sensitive topics. Like, I, I can't disclose them. Sometimes I have to be aware about them, but I think it's just having, like, a kind of, like, catch-all phrase around, like, you know, not where...

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I don't know. Like, I'm not able to comment. Like, that's out of my wheelhouse or whatnot. And so, yeah, it's, it's the tricky part. Yeah.

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Um, I don't know if, uh, what you've heard, Dave, in terms of from other chiefs of staff. Like- I've, I've heard it all. [laughs] Yeah. I'm sure you have. Um- Yeah. So yeah, I think...

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And again, it's like being, again, that buffer. It's, like, two-way communication, right? It's not...

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It's, it's really important that-What I'm hearing, I'm-- Of course, if it's like I'm receiving permission to share it onwards, absolutely.

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Sometimes it's even we're talking about, like, this buffer, but it's also sometimes, like, translation. I feel it's like, "Oh, my CEO said something in all, all hands," and folks are wondering about that.

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Or maybe I realize that they might have misinterpreted what I believe my CEO meant, and it's like, you know, bridging that as well.

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I think, um, that's, like, another way in which the chief of staff is a liaison that's super critical to the team. Yeah.

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And not just critical to be a liaison, but to be a, a liaison in a way that is respectful of the person for whom you are liaising.

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This is something that I find is so interesting because you're expected to have a level of insight into everything at a moment's notice and saying, "You know what?

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I need to take, take a step back and think about that," or, "I don't wanna comment on that," can sometimes be seen as obfuscation or, like, lack of, uh, awareness about something of which you should be aware.

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But sometimes I don't wanna speak for someone else. I'm like- Yeah... I think I know. I'm, like, ninety-nine percent confident I know what they would say. I just don't wanna say that for them. Like, just to- Totally...

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ask a thing. Yeah. But I don't wanna be that person who's like, "Whoa, don't, don't ask me. I'm stonewalling." It's a, it's a tough line to walk. Yeah. Hmm. Let's-- We'll, we'll start to wrap up this.

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[laughs] Start to end on some positive notes here.

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Um, but I do think that this, this part's really interesting, though, about how I think I heard you say, like, culture can be a place where you think that it's not quantifiable, but through the process of talking to people and getting to know them, you can make quantifiable change.

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And I thought that that was really interesting. Um, the--

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I don't know if there's, like, kind of parting thoughts or some things that are swirling around in your minds as you're kind of, uh, kind of processing what we've been talking about here.

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But the o- the one th- kind of final question I had or final topic that I just wasn't sure about is-- was around, like, how does this... how does creating a value happen as, like, y- your role and/or the company changes?

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So, like, right now, you-- when you joined and it was like-- and you k- kinda talked about this a little bit with, like, this, you know, now there's a fractional CRO and now go-to-market.

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And so it seems like your role's almost, like, more-- gonna be more metric, uh, visible, so to speak. And on your side, it was like, "Hey, there's no one else really here."

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And, like, I started off in sales and partnerships, so, like, I'm creating value along the way. But, like, what happens if a CRO joins or head of sales joins? Like, yeah. A-any thoughts on that?

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Kind of like, how does this kind of creating value come up as, like, maybe your role or the company really changes? Yeah. What do you think? I had a mentor tell me when I first started this role that,

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like, the most awesome part about it is that you get to carve out the spaces in which you do wanna grow.

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So I think that there's actually-- there's such a privilege to in this role of, like, if you wanna ramp up to, you know, a certain skill set, um, y-you already have access to, you know, certain functions at, like, the majority of the functions of the business.

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On the flip side, a lot of the time, chief of staffs are involved in, like, the incubating of teams or incubating of initiatives or functions. And so I think, um,

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I think that it's, like, in general, it's about being attuned to, like, how you wanna grow, how the company is growing, and then being able to reconcile the two.

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And a-again, I think it's, like, a consistent sort of, like, oscillation. Um, but I think that's also why it takes, like, a, a lot of consistent self-awareness and reflection as well. Yeah. I'll, I'll pause there.

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I may have more to share. Yeah. But those are just, like, very high-level thoughts. Yeah. You said the word "attunement," which is one of my favorite words, so- [laughs]... this is a great answer. Yeah. Well,

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companies-- It's important to remember that companies are not monolithic, right? Hmm. They're objects in a point in time. They move quickly, some faster than others. But when you're joining

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a company in the chief of staff role, I think part of the expectation should be that you will be a reflection of the company's needs for as long as you're in that role. And for me, that was baked into the, um...

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it was just baked into the expectations, and I think that's true of m- any chief of staff I've met that has been, uh, there's been, like, full bore alignment with that expectation. So

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when you think about, like, what your company needs, you should definitely try to align what you're interested in and plugging into the gaps that your company is looking to have filled, right?

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Like, and back to the point of how to add value, to oversimplify it, you can make numbers go up, you can make them go down, or you can look for areas of opportunity to innovate, to do new things that aren't currently being done, and you can attack those with curiosity, ask good questions, and figure out what does value additive activity in this space look like.

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And maybe if you're really into sales and go-to-market, you find a project that is not maybe fully fleshed out and make numbers go up.

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Maybe if you're really into ops or tech, you jump on a project where you can make numbers go down. And maybe if you're not so interested in either of those things, you look for a new area of opportunity.

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Maybe if it's a later stage company M&A, uh, and you try to create something out of thin air. But I think it really just comes back to understanding, what does my company need right now?

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Are we trying to make numbers go up or down? What is the priority? And what aspect of what the company needs am I most interested in and I can attack excitedly every day and make a difference in?

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And echoing on that, like, yeah, the what is the priority and, like, absolutely the expectations i-is you're gonna be contributing to whatever is top priority, obviously, for the team.

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I think it's also important as the chief of staff to remember to, like, ask for support and ask for, like, the, the enablement that you need, the buy-in that you need as well.

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As, uh, maybe I'll give a specific example with this new sort of, like, attention to go-to-market revamping, um, and, and strategy.

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Something that I aligned with on my-- with my CEO is like, "Hey, this obviously is, like, top priority. Um, I need some support, like, to free up my time. Can, can we have someone on ops?" Yeah.

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"Like, can we, can we bring someone in?" He's like, "Yes."

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And, like, the other thing, "Can you support me, ramp me up in terms of just, like, having a few crash course is on, you know, our space and, and this sort of thing so I can be more helpful in go-to-market ops?"

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And he's like, "Yes, done."

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And so it's like also, you know, recognizing what-- this is super simple, but, like, what you need to be successful, and so being really clear, and it seems like, Richard, like you have super, you know, you have great communication and relationships with, like, the folks that you work with and your CEO.

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So I think it's just, like, keeping that up. I love it. Eve, Richard, thank you so much. Hopefully people can connect with you on LinkedIn and- Yeah... um, yeah, this has been great. Really appreciate it.

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Thanks for having us. Yeah. Thanks for having us. It was great. Woo! Love them.

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