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[upbeat music] Hey friend, it's David Nebinski, the community lead here at the Chief of Staff Network.

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We help chiefs of staff through the three Cs: cohorts, curriculum, and community, via Slack with over 900 people in it. Can learn more about our membership, upcoming events, and programs at chiefofstaff.network.

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There you can learn more about our Chief of Staff Fundamentals course that starts in May, our AI fellowship, and also our three Chief of Staff Connect conferences, with the first one being in San Francisco on May 15th to May 16th.

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Hope to see you there. In this episode, you'll learn from Shelby Sly, the chief of staff and director of strategy and operations at Ridgeline.

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She's been working there for over four years, and initially started working at Ridgeline as a senior operations program manager.

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While at Ridgeline, the company has evolved and grown a lot, and you'll hear how the company has changed and Shelby's contributions to it as a chief of staff during this evolution and growth period.

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Excited for you to level up as a chief of staff. Here we go with Shelby. All right, Shelby, welcome to the show. Thank you, David. So good to be here.

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So we like to start off the pod with t- just talking about how people got their roles. Um, so you've been at Ri- Ridgeline for about four, four-plus years. Yep.

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Um, and how would you say you got your chief of staff role there? Yeah. So I had been, at the time, at Ridgeline for a little over a year.

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So I started at Ridgeline in January 2021, and then flash forward, I think, spring 2022. And so when I started at Ridgeline, I had been a program manager, really focused on the engineering and product teams.

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And, uh, the company when I started was around 200 people, uh, give or take a few.

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And, uh, I was really focused, me and the other program manager at the time, like very focused on just building out some of those preliminary engineering programs and processes, things like our deployment process, our disaster recovery program, uh, you know, increasing the relationship with AWS, our main partner, um, at the time, and, you know, lot, lot of that fun stuff.

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Very technical stakeholders. Um, and so in spring of 2022, uh, my boss, Jenny Molinelli, came to me, and I, I put Jenny in the very easy category of just the best manager that I've, I've ever had.

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She's just an incredible coach and mentor and really is somebody that, uh, I think sees strengths within people and then helps build them up, um, and helps that person build them up within themselves and is just very adept at this.

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And so, [laughs] you know, Jenny had put, I think, a slightly longer one-on-one on my calendar than normal, and I think it was also earlier in the day than normal. And

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I, you know, did not think there was any reason for me to be getting maybe constructive feedback, but I was [laughs] also like, I just don't know which direction this, this conversation is gonna go necessarily.

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And, um, Jenny, this was just a, like a master class, and if I ever need to really bring somebody along [laughs] with a decision and need them to, to come with me and believe me, this is like the notes that I would, I would follow.

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But Jenny basically, you know, kinda said, "Hey, Shelby, I, I think as you're aware, we've had some misses in our roadmap within the last few months. You know, we are behind on our business plan.

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I'm here to tell you there's gonna be a big leadership shakeup." You know, this had not happened yet. Like there was gonna be a big leadership shakeup.

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Uh, Dave Blair, who at the time was leading our product organization, is gonna become president of the company, and then John Ruggiero, who had recently been hired to be our CTO, he's gonna have a, you know, a larger organization.

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Uh, and it's gonna be really critical, um, that those two folks in particular really remain in lockstep, you know, along with the rest of the leadership team, but, you know, those, those two, um, people in particular and, uh, you know, we...

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"Shelby," like, [laughs] you know, "we're gonna need to establish some operational rigor as part of this. We really need to, uh, bring the entire company along with this, and it's gonna be hard."

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Um, side note, we did not know it at the time, but we would truly have to rearchitect the entire product. So it, it would be a massive undertaking, again, not fully known [laughs] at the time, but- Mm...

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she meant it when she said it was gonna be hard. But she also said, "I know you have some past experience in the chief of staff seat," from a startup that I'd been at before. Um, you know, "You've been here a year.

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You know these stakeholders. You've been, you know, kinda in the trenches with some of them. Like, can you, you know, [laughs] kinda take, take the chief of staff helm on? I believe you can do it.

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I believe that you can be part of this critical journey, and just, you know, how does that sound to you?" Um, you know, I think it was the best sort of, uh, offer that I couldn't refuse type of situation.

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Um, and that's how I ultimately said yes to the role, and then the journey, [laughs] you know, the rollercoaster really just kicked off from there. And to be like, I guess, like a little bit more clear, like what was...

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When you said if you had to, like what was so impactful or productive or like her, this meeting you said like, "Hey, if I ever had to," was it just the way that she kind of like...

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I guess I'm, the way I'm thinking about it is like managing up or like influencing others or collaborating with others and like finding win-win solutions here.

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Like I guess I'm just wondering like what, what was like so unique about that versus maybe like other meetings? I think it was a combination of things.

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I think she, first of all, led with some information that, you know, very few people in the business knew at that time of- Mm... "Hey, there's gonna be these changes happening. This, I, I trust you.

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I, you know, believe in this as a, as a safe space to be able to tell you that, but it's going to happen, and I'm kind of bringing you into the fold on this information."

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I'm also painting a picture now of what's going to happen, how critical this is gonna be to really write our business roadmap and get us back on track.

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You know, here's kind of the future of what this leadership team looks like. Um, and then also articulating what my role within that would be and, and also just kind of putting the exclamation point of I believe in you.

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I believe you can do this. Mm. I've seen this in you. You know, will you come along for the ride?

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I mean, just an incredible way to really motivate somebody and make them feel seen and, uh, excited for, you know, quite, [laughs] quite a big undertaking, turns out. [laughs] Will you come along? I love that.

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I might have to steal that one. Um-And so then that was 2022. It sounds like that was like a really, you know, impactful year for you and for the company. Um, so what were those like first 30, 60, 90 days?

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What did they look like? Yeah. I mean, I think the, within the first 30 days we did have a whole mid-year company kickoff, which was basically like... What's the best way to describe it?

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I mean, a, a ceremony to say, "This is the new leadership team."

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And it, it, it was I think the only time that we've really gotten the entire company, um, from that scale onward all together, um, outside of some corporate retreats that we have done.

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Uh, and we brought everybody to Reno, uh, Nevada, which is where one of our larger hubs and, uh, locations is.

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Uh, took them all to the GSR, uh, in Reno, and had a couple days of really just like, you know, uh, discussions and, um, you know, sessions across the leadership team, uh, to really say, you know, "Going forward, this is what we need to do."

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Um, we clearly articulated what those business goals were and just tried to kind of do what Jenny had done for me in that conversation with the whole business to say, "We need you all to be rowing in the same direction and to come along."

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So that first on-site kickoff, whatever we wanna call it, was a big [laughs] a big piece of it and, you know, it's, it's kinda crazy to think back to, um, moments like that and just how far as a leadership team we've come.

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I mean, you know, after the shakeup there was a lot of folks who hadn't worked as closely with each other in that kind of leadership context and, um, we're just in such a positive and great place now.

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I just think about kind of the anxiety that I'm sure everybody must have been feeling in that moment to be like, "Oh my God, we're, we're all along for this ride now. We're all on this rollercoaster together."

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So there was that kickoff, and then one of the first things, um, and we might get into this a little bit more in, in, um, the later part of this conversation, but that was gonna be really critical for us to do was to think about, um, the operating ri- rigor, and in particular an operating cadence that we'd really need to be able to establish, um, to put things in a better place internally.

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Um, we had been for the first few years as a company, um, or I guess first couple years at that point, uh, a very meeting-heavy culture.

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Like, if you needed to learn information or you needed to share information you went to a meeting, and we had a biweekly all staff, which is great when you have a company of 20, 30 people and you can all- Yeah...

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fit in one room and et cetera. Uh, got- gets a lot more challenging when you're, you know, over 300 people, and it just becomes also very expensive, right?

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It's a very expensive way to share information, to bring a company along, and for leaders to have line of sight into things. And so addressing that culture was gonna be one of our, uh, first priorities.

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And how do you think or what were the key, um, either activities or changes to go from to, like, make this operating rigor happen?

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So from, like, meeting heavy to more, like, high trust and productive, like, what do you think was really like... Was there one thing that was really impactful to make that happen?

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I'd say it was a handful of smaller changes over time. Um, we started by really taking an inventory of w- not just meetings, but what are all the things we're doing, right?

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Like, what are, uh, where are the places that people are spending their time, in particular our leaders?

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So really looking at from managers, directors, and then that upper kind of VP and leadership level, where, where are we spending our time? And, uh, trying to then weed out kinda starting with the quick wins of like,

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you know, very clearly, like, there's no outcomes articulated for that particular process or meeting. Like, we don't need it, right?

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Like, and, um, starting with a little bit more of, like, the hammer approach of just, um, you know, getting rid of those very obvious opportunities for, um, you know, finding some efficiency, and then starting to take more of a scalpel to say, "Okay, like, now that we've gotten rid of, for example, that biweekly company all staff, how are folks going to learn more about the ongoings of the business, and how do we, you know, just still ensure that we're bringing people along and being transparent?"

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So one of the things that we did is, um, Dave Blair, who as I mentioned at the time was, uh, president, um, and is, is, if I haven't already [laughs] made this point, he is the leader that I support as chief of staff.

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Um, he's now the CEO. Uh, one of the things that we did, um, was he started writing a weekly Friday note. Mm.

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So every Friday Dave sends a note to the entire company that is really, you know, his top of mind, his musings, uh, of the week.

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You know, maybe bringing the company along with, uh, customer conversations he had that week or some of his travel or other, you know, market trends and conditions.

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Um, but we started to say, "Hey, like, we can shift pretty cleanly, um, over time to a writing culture."

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That's been one of, uh, the main things that Dave has really emphasized within the company and, you know, as part of that leadership shakeup I think was one of the biggest changes, is moving from that meeting heavy, you gotta go, you know, be in person with somebody or, you know, virtually in person with somebody to learn things versus, hey, we can share information very effectively in an asynchronous way, um, and remove some of that, uh, kind of process weight as part of it.

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Were you, um... Like, how, how were you a part, uh, or, like, how did your work... Like, did you work on some of this writing stuff? Do you, do you draft this stuff? Do you...

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Yeah, if, if, if you move to a more writing-based culture and as the chief of staff, like, what would you say is, like, some of the things that you've done, um, related to that?At the time when we were first kicking it off, to really help bring people along with it, we did, you know, certainly some research and shared, you know, some white papers- Yeah...

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or just articles with other folks. Like Amazon has a very strong writing culture, and they talk a lot about...

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I think they have more of a six-page memo that, um, they release as part of, um, I believe every meeting that they do, or at least every more senior meeting.

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And folks actually take i- I think 10 minutes at the top of every meeting to actually silently read this pre-read before going into the discussion, just to make sure that everybody has, you know, the information and is prepped with to have, then have a productive conversation.

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We didn't quite wanna go toward a six-page memo, but we do... Uh, one of the things that I, you know, personally built out as part of this, this shift was a, a one-pager template.

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And so before we go into especially a decision-making, uh, meeting- Mm...

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it's really critical that, you know, and we hold people to this expectation that they have created a one-pager or similar document to really make sure that it's effective.

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So in the early days of this change, it was a lot of, you know, sharing out examples of how other companies are doing this, starting to implement certain templates and, um, kind of lightweight structure and encouraging people to use it.

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Um, and then over time, just continuing to beat this drum of, you know, you see, y- y- a meeting pop up on your calendar, there's no agenda, there's no context for it.

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You know, making sure people feel empowered to ask, like, "Hey, what's the purpose here? What are we really trying to do?" Mm-hmm.

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Is this something that could be an email, for example, and then, you know, that pattern just builds on itself over time. It's hard to do podcasts over email. Um, [laughs] It's hard to do a podcast over email, yes.

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[laughs] This is something where it is, it is best for you and I to be, to be speaking live. Like... Uh, you know, I think there's a lot of, uh...

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You know, there's a l- always been in con- or recently there's been conversations around productivity, efficiency and, you know, and, and now, you know, a lot more around AI and stuff.

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I'm like live conversations, that, that... I mean, they're expensive, but they, they, they'll s- they'll still exist. Events, they'll still exist. Um- We just want them to be as meaningful and impactful as possible.

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You know, we've all been in those meetings where you walk away like, "Oh, my God." [laughs] Like, that could, that could have been an email. Yeah. And it's, it's...

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As someone who sets up a lot of meetings and facilitates- Mm...

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a lot of meetings, that is the worst feeling, to feel like, "Man, I just took an hour of some really busy people's time, and we did not do what we needed to do." How do you ensure that those meetings are effective?

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Are there meetings that you set up, like is there... Do you have a certain approach? I'm sure this is not gonna be a surprise to many people when I say that it's, you know, 90% the prep for those. Especially if it's...

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You know, a lot, a lot of the meetings that I'll set up are across different leaders, where we are coming together to discuss and hopefully align on an approach and, and make a decision.

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And so what I'll often try to do, especially if I know it's gonna be a contentious topic or where there's just a lot of opinions, and I'll make, I'll make sure that I have met or at least connected one-on-one with each of those attendees, even if it's over Slack, but just that we have a touchpoint- Mm...

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where I can understand what their perspective is, what they're bringing to this conversation. I d- my goal is to never surprise anybody in these conversations.

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You know, then people kinda get more on their heels and it, it becomes harder to have a, you know, a productive and, and helpful conversation.

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And so if everybody feels in advance heard, and they know the direction that I'm gonna be facilitating the meeting in and what the goals and outcomes are in a very clear fashion, they're less likely to take us down rabbit holes.

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They're less likely to kind of, you know, come out of left field with an opinion, and I've found that we often can move through the topic a bit more fluidly.

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Um, as I mentioned, I try to, uh, especially if it's more of a decision we're working toward, have a one-pager, clearly articulate what the, what the outcomes are. Just a lot of that type of prep, um, in, in general.

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Yeah. Is there anything else on the kind of, uh, evolution of the company and its operating rhythm and cadence and rigor that you really wanna like double-click on? I would just say that one of the things that has been

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a good learning for myself and Dave over time has just been the importance of a willingness to change things up. Mm.

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You know, hey, this cadence that we created back in 2022 worked for us really well for the first six months that we tried it, and maybe, you know, there were some things we needed to peel back a little bit on.

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Um, I'm very much a believer that leadership teams, uh, and executives are... You know, the level of information they want is gonna be like a sine curve.

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Like, there are gonna be moments where they are feeling really low trust. Mm-hmm. And so the level of detail and information that they need during those times is the peak of the sine curve. It's really high.

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They're like, "I need all the info. Give me all of the data." [laughs] You know, "I, I wanna be in all the spreadsheets, I wanna be in every Jira board. Like, give it all to me," right?

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Then as they kind of crest that peak and they're like, "Oh, okay, things are going pretty well.

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Like, I have more trust in, in my other leaders around me," they start to kind of slow, you know, go down, go down the curve and, you know, they need less information. They don't need to meet with them as frequently.

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Things can kind of lighten up. And then if there, you know, more fires start to crop up and the, the trust starts to erode, then we're back more again toward the, toward the peak of the sine curve.

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Which is a reality, and we, I try to guard against that a bit within our processes, to say, "Hey, let's not be too quick to just peel back unnecessarily, but let's, um, make sure that we're meeting the business where it's at, that we're not unduly adding process or, um, just micro-optimizing a process just because it's how we've done something in the past."

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So I would say that while we have maintained the core tenets of that operating cadence that we created back in '22, we've definitely edited and pivoted and, um, made, made some changes over time. Nice.

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And so, uh, you've talked a lot about, like, the different, I'd say, like, definitely you've talked about some of the stuff that you've worked on and, but also, like, I would say a lot more around how the company's evolved and, uh, as you became a chief of staff.

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Is there anything else about, like,

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either and-Your specific role or your style of a chief of staff, I know sometimes we talk about and, and Art Deback came up with this framework around this, that chief of staff X factor. Like, what would you say is your

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X factor, if we had to guess, Shelby? Yeah.

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I think the example I just gave is a good segue into this, because what I would say is that my X factor is that ability to really meet this leadership team and, uh, the requirements of the business as we scale where they're at.

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And I think that that is very much informed by my variety of program management and operations experience.

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You know, I started my career at Salesforce, um, and held a couple different roles there across program management within the revenue operation space, and then, uh, product and pricing ops role, where I was really sitting across the new product introduction process.

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And, you know, in, in big company speak, I was also focused on the acquisition program. And so- Mm-hmm...

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um, at a high level, it was really just shepherding newly acquired products into Salesforce and, you know, ensuring their success.

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And, and that brought me into contact with, you know, stakeholders, everybody from product to pricing strategy, to legal, to operations, to sales, to deal desk.

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I mean, it was the full gamut of how do you run a successful business and build a successful product.

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And I feel really lucky to have had that type of broad stakeholder experience because, you know, applying that at Ridgeline as this company has gone through different phases of growth, you know, from the time where we were just very focused primarily on product and engineering as we're building and developing the platform and then rearchitecting it, um, it was easy for me to empathize with those stakeholders and understand, you know, what are some of the early, uh, product processes that they're gonna need to be successful, and how do we go from A to B?

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And then now, as we are in more of a growth stage and really investing heavily within our go-to-market organization within the last year, [clears throat] excuse me, starting to do things like building out our first set of Ridgeline SKUs, that's experience that I can draw, you know, still from my Salesforce experience on and say, "Okay, I, I know what we need to do here," and I might not be perfectly deep in, in pricing strategy and how we, you know, articulate those selling motions, but I know that we need to have selling motions, and I know what the core components of those are.

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And so I can support our more focused stakeholders within the business, uh, to help them get that going and really get it off the ground, move with urgency, all of that good stuff.

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So just that ability to really meet the different phases of a business's growth where it's at is, I think, what I more keenly bring to the table. Yeah.

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And so it sound- it sounds like Ridgeline's been growing basically the entire time that you've been working there. Yes. It has been a wild ride. [laughs] As I said, we started, when I started, we were around 200 people.

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I think we're pushing a little over 450 at this point. Wow. We have tried to be very, very intentional about that growth. Uh, you know, kind of thinking back to 2022, you know, we had really challenged the business of

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do what you can with the people you have. Like, be really thoughtful about why you're asking for additional headcount if you are, just while we are focused on, uh, building out, you know, more rigor internally.

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And then as we've grown, grown from there, we've really just tried to continue that mentality of just really interrogating, uh, the need for added headcount and, and, and a more linear growth model.

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And that's coming even more into, uh, the forefront of things, obviously, with AI and the conversations just around internal efficiency.

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Um, we are, uh, starting to invest more internally in structures to really make sure that managers, you know, at all levels are really thinking about for this particular, uh, function and, and part of the business, how do I get the most out of it, and what can I get with AI as well.

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Yeah. And how do you, how do you compare this chief of staff role, uh, to your prior chief of staff role? Yeah.

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So prior to, uh, joining Ridgeline, I had a brief stint at a company called Nextrole, uh, that is in the ad tech space, uh, which was great.

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You know, when I left Salesforce, I intentionally wanted to get some experience really at a startup, and I, and I, you know, had been really enthralled with the product side of my stakeholders at Salesforce and wanted to get much closer to those teams, really understand what makes them tick, like what goes into the software development lifestyle or, excuse me, life cycle.

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Um, and so my role at Nextrole was, uh, a hybrid role of a product operations manager as well as chief of staff to their head of product, which was very fun in that it was a lot of building out, similarly to my time at Ridgeline, building out some of those critical, you know, product management processes, uh, implementing, uh, product management solutions, but then also on the chief of staff side, really being the Swiss Army knife for our head of product, uh, at the time and, uh, working on some of his most strategic initiatives and, uh, being that feedback loop to other parts of the business for him.

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Um, so it was obviously much more focused on the R&D side of the business. He,

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uh, ran product but then also had design teams, and so it was sitting very closely with the, those stakeholders, which really was just highly relevant for then when I did go to Ridgeline and the stage that that company was at, it was almost just like a very easy transition.

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Um, but it was certainly when I compare it to this chief of staff role now, um, you know, much narrower in focus. Okay. Um, and I'm excited to see you in San Francisco in a couple of weeks. Yeah, me too.

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Uh, [laughs] You're making the trek out here. Yeah, you know, um- I've heard you guys haven't had such great weather though, so maybe you're excited for the, the trip out.

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Uh, well, I'm definitely ex- I, I lived in San Francisco in 2014, 2016, and then I was out there in early 2024 for, like, a mini conference that we did, our Brain Trust mini conference.

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Um, and I've just been...You know, shout out to the local community has really just been grown, uh, has grown and, you know, doesn't really need me.

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Um, but, uh, for the, for our mixers and stuff, and shout out to Robin, and Melinda, and Sandy, and Julie.

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I mean, there's been so many people that have been, uh, Marcella, so many people that have been hosting, um, the events. Mm-hmm. And so, um,

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and yeah, we had a really, you know, successful, uh, Chief of Staff Connect conference in New York in October last year. And we were like, "You know what? Let's, let's do it in San Francisco." And, um,

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you know, so I'm coming out, and I'm excited to see you finally. We've been chatting since 2022, and now, you know, finally get to meet up. It's gonna be a lot of fun. I know.

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As I've been on my Ridgeline journey, we've also been on the [laughs] the Chief of Staff network journey. It's, yeah, I'm, I'm really looking forward to that time.

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I, I love every chance I get to connect with, uh, other chief of staff and operator-minded people.

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I feel like it's a role where you don't, you know, within your organization, have a lot of other folks that you can reach out and, and tap, and who have that empathy for, um, just the nature of the work itself.

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And so it's always very fun to get a bunch of type A operations people [laughs] in one room. We all have a, have a good time. Yeah. Is there other chiefs of staff at Ridgeline at this point? We have expanded now, yeah.

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Okay. We have two other chief of staffs, uh, who support our, uh, CTO, uh, John Ruggiero, and then also our, um, SVP of sales and marketing. Interesting. Cool. Um- I have friends now.

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[laughs] I can imagine- I was alone for a long time. No, I- I, I can imagine you've had friends for, for a while, and I... We were talking before about, um, the... Would you...

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How would you call the Women in Business Association? How would you... What would you describe that as a- Yeah. It's, yeah, it's the Cal Poly Women in Business Association. It's a student-run club at, at Cal Poly here.

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Yeah. Um, do you think that experience has been... Like, obviously, I can imagine it was very impactful in the moment, but, like, do you think that that was a really,

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like, pivotal project as, for your kind of personal and professional growth in terms of like, "Wow, I can start something"? I feel like once,

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once I started to learn that you can just, like, do things and start things, like, it's just, like, it just kind of... It's, you kind of like can't unsee it sometimes. Do you feel that same way too, Shelby? 100%.

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I think that experience of, of co-founding that club really taught me how to just, first of all, you know, put my ideas out there, ask for help, um, and then also just get a little scrappy to get things done.

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Like, reach out to that alumni and, you know, um, who knows what it's gonna turn into? It actually is what got me my internship at Salesforce and, um, you know, then just catalyzed my career from there.

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So I owe many, many things [laughs] in how I, how I am as a person, how I lead, even the job that I had started in, really, to that experience. Wow. Amazing. Yeah. And still going. It's, what, six years?

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How long have I been out of college? That's how many years it's been. [laughs] We don't... [laughs] Oh, oh, let's see. At least- 'Cause you were, like, a junior? Or...

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It's, oh, it's, it's probably approaching almost 10 years, maybe next year maybe. Wow. I could be wrong about that. Around, in that ballpark. [laughs] Yeah, yeah, yeah.

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If there was a 10-year anniversary, then you'd probably know about it. Um- Yes, yes. [laughs] I hope so.

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But, I mean, you know, just real, real quick to kind of not, you know, blow past that, uh, topic, I, I do put that also in the category of where I, I really do think about the people in my life that have made that meaningful.

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Mm-hmm. Like, I can, I can trace certain moments and opportunities back to specific people.

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And I mentioned Jenny already at the beginning of this call, but I think, um, you know, at the time when I was at Cal Poly, so Scott Dawson was the dean of the business school, and he had only been there a year or so, I wanna say, but, um, really came in with just a deep love of, um, doing kind of a similar thing as Jenny, really, you know, finding, seeing the opportunity within people and helping them build that up.

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And especially as a student to, you know, have the dean saying, "Hey, you're, you're starting this thing. Can I put you in contact with anybody? Can I help you?"

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You know, "Hey, we're fundraising in the Bay Area for other aspects of the college.

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Do you wanna tag along and speak to other alumni and kind of, you know, get the word out and see if anyone would wanna come and speak to your club?"

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And, uh, that was one of the ways that then I got put in touch with Meredith Schmidt, who at the time was the EVP of global rev ops at Salesforce.

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And, um, she came down and did a speaking event, uh, for the club and, you know, it was in a, a hallway conversation with her afterward where she asked, "What are you doing this summer, Shelby?" And

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I, you know, did not know. [laughs] I, I had been applying to different things and, um, unsure if I wanted to graduate early or do an extra quarter of school.

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And I, I think she sensed I was feeling a little lost and said, "Well, you know, I have internships at Salesforce in my department. You should apply." And, you know, one thing led to another. Wow.

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And I [laughs] interned and then went back full time.

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And so I, I think it's just very cool to sometimes reflect on those people in our lives and, um, just the opportunities that really have shaped us into where we are now. It's been, it's been a fun ride.

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100%, I love that. Um, and now we've got the language. Do you wanna come along for this ride with me, you know? [laughs] Exactly. Exactly. And- Everyone feel free to borrow from Scott, and Meredith, and Jenny.

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It's, it's powerful stuff. [laughs] And who knows? Ho- hopefully this podcast sparks more conversations as well, and people reach out to you and say, "Hey, this podcast," or you know.

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So if you're listening, say hello, let us know what, what resonated, what stood out to you, and, um, yeah, let's co-create together. Let's build upon this.

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Um-Is there anything else that you wanna say about the chief of staff role, either to like existing chiefs of staff or aspiring chiefs of staff that you don't think we talked about?

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I think we have covered a lot of ground. I think the only thing that when I am asked by people of like, "Oh, what are some of the things that I should do or think about if I want to be a chief of staff?"

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Really for folks who haven't, haven't done a role like this before, and I think it's very easy to look at the black and white, you know, type of resume experience and, and some of the, the skills that just, just go into being adept at this kind of role.

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I think one thing that I would just highlight that you can't really, you know, blow past or be effective without it, is just the ability to very quickly build trust with leadership. Mm-hmm.

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I think one of the reasons that I had, uh, you know, like that Jenny saw, [laughs] you know, some things in me and that I was successful, uh, early on was just that I had been through some of the trenches with that leadership team already.

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You know, I had had opportunities to really get to know them, to build trust.

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Um, I think I had proven myself to be pretty deft and mature in how I showed up and managed my stakeholders, uh, which is not really something that you can easily explain to people or teach necessarily. It's...

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I, I do think it is kind of a you have it or you don't, you instinctually do these things or you don't.

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Um, you know, they need to feel like they can trust me and that I'm not out necessarily blabbing about every conversation that I have with an executive team member, right?

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So there's a little bit of that just inherent, uh, trust and partnership that just is the thing that's going to make or break, I think, a chief of staff- Mm... and leader relationship over time,

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is what I would say for folks to think about.

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And to think about if they wanna be in this role, how they, you know, find opportunities to really show up well in those moments and, and to make that, um, kinda deftness and maturity clear. I love it.

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It's like, are you the friend that no one tells their secrets to? Yeah, that... If so, that's probably not... [laughs] This role is probably not for you in that case. Yeah, yeah. [laughs] I would say look elsewhere.

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[laughs] You've got a gift that's, uh, maybe it's better fit to be in sales, um- [laughs]... or better to be a better fit, a more, you know, public facing type thing. Um- Agreed. Thank you. All right.

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Well, I'm excited to see you in San Francisco in, in, um, uh, mid-May. Um, I guess people can reach out to you on LinkedIn. I can see you, uh, we can connect more in Slack. Shelby, thank you so much. This was amazing.

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David, thank you so much for having me. This was so fun. And yes, folks, feel free to reach out if this has sparked, sparked anything for you. Happy to chat more. Come along for the ride.

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[laughs] [outro music]