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[upbeat music] Hey friend, it's David Nevinski, the community lead at the Chief of Staff Network. We help chiefs of staff through the three Cs, cohorts, curriculum, and community, via Slack with over 900 people in it.

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Learn more about our membership events and programs at chiefofstaff.network. You can also subscribe to our newsletter there to learn more as well. This episode of the Chief of Staff podcast is with Sue Broderick.

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Sue is the chief of staff at We Know Training. This episode was recorded in person at our Chief of Staff Connect two-day conference in New York in October.

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Sue also used to work in the public sector, so if you're interested in learning about the difference between public sector and private sector chief of staff work, this episode is for you.

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We also talk a lot about relationship building and working dynamics with yo- your principal and so much more. Excited for you to level up as a chief of staff. Here we go with Sue.

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Uh, Sue, welcome to the Chief of Staff podcast. Thank you. [laughs] Uh, from Canada to New York, here we go. Right. Um, what brought you to New York? Chief of Staff Network.

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[laughs] I found you guys on LinkedIn, and realized after reading, you know, the blurb- Mm...

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that it was something that is a big interest of mine in this role, and just connecting with people and who do the same kind of stuff. And then I f- saw that it was in New York. I'm like, [scoffs] "How do I not go?"

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[laughs] Yeah. And, um, okay, so, um, and so related to Chief of Staff stuff, um, how did, how did you get your chief of staff role? Good question.

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I, I, my current CEO, uh, Chris Labossiere, he's a fantastic individual who sees, um, the good and- Mm... and he challenges you.

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And s- I started out as an executive assistant to h- him and h- his business partner at the time, Don Reep and Greg Kiriluk.

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And I, um, started with the three guys and worked for c- I think about three, four years into that role, and then realized I had come from a background of in the chief of staff in, in the political in Canada.

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So I n- I knew that role well and understood what that meant, but I think these guys at the time didn't even know what an EA could do. [laughs] So it was great. They didn't know what you could do.

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[laughs] They didn't know what... That's right. And, um, so we worked together, and then Chris has developed, um, some really unique of, um, offerings and challenges to me. Mm-hmm.

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And then recently I changed that title a few years ago into the chief of staff role. Okay. How do, what do you see the difference between kind of a corporate chief of staff and, like, a public sector chief of staff?

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Yeah, good question. I, I actually, yesterday in one of the, um, sessions with Bradley, he nailed it. Like, I mean, it, it's exactly that.

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It, it is, it, it was a role or is a role currently, um, in politics that I think is m- more well-known, but the difference is, um, I find the private sector may be more project based and, um,

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or c- or could be, I suppose, but i- it's a kind of a jack of all... You just do everything. Mm-hmm.

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And it's such a trusted confidant of that CEO, um, or like in the politics, it'd be your, you know, the, your elected official. You are that person's, um, sounding board.

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You're that filter, that, um, interpreter- Yeah... as we say. Uh, yeah, so it, it's similar, but it does have immediate repercussions in the, you know, government. You can be held accountable for,

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um, m- more of your boss's errors, I'd say. [laughs] Mm. Yeah. Sounds like it's tough. It's a little tough. [laughs] Yeah, it's not fun sometimes, but it's, it's great. It's how I totally learnt how to, um,

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have a thick skin. Mm. Was, is there, uh, an example or an experience that you were like, "Okay, before I had thin skin, and now I've got thick skin"? [laughs] Yeah.

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Uh, well, I worked, um, when I was in the p- in the political arena, I worked for the minister responsible for healthcare. Mm-hmm.

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And so you would have people calling, constituents calling, uh, you know, very upset over what we were doing, how we were doing it,

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and trying to deal with that, like, like, understanding that these people are in desperate need of something. Mm-hmm. And they would make you feel like it's your fault that their grandma died- Mm...

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or it's your fault that, um... I also worked for the minister of education, and we, we cut, um, early childhood development, like, uh, kindergarten. Yeah. So way to go, right? Like, here, let's cut the little people.

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[laughs] Yeah. Um, and people would just be very intense with your, like, "Why are you doing this? My grandma's, you know, out on the street," or this and this and this. And, and it, and the,

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it, you, it becomes c- it can become very personal. Mm. It can. So you have to develop, you have to shut that off and understand that the work you're doing is,

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is hopefully m- making an impact for the better some- most of the time, but sometimes there are hard decisions that you just have to do, and I think I've managed to take that through into private. Same thing.

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There are hard decisions that- Mm... CEOs and founders and, um, owners and shareholders have to make, and it's not personal. Yeah.

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Um, it's more business, but obviously I, I, I like that saying, but I also hate that saying. [laughs] Because of course it's personal. Yeah. It's personal to the person that's ha- you know- Mm...

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it's, it's hard to the person that it's happening to.Um, how have you been able to overcome, deal, manage, cope with these hard decisions and har- hard choices? I drink a lot. [laughs] No.

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[laughs] I actually have a really good network of people, ah, even individuals, ah, that I've just kept in contact with who deal with the same kind of pressures of day to day.

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I ha- also have a very great working relationship with my CEO right now, and we are friends and colleagues as well. Um, but you can have... I've- I'm, I'm a big believer in straight talk. Mm.

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So we have a lot of straight talk and a lot of support there. Um, and I, I just find that there, there are times when you can lean into one another a little bit more. Yeah. So, and it helps for sure.

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How did you and, um, the leader that you work for and with, how did you all... You said you bec- you're friends. How did you all, like, develop that type of relationship? Yeah, that's a g- really great question.

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[laughs] I don't know how. It just seemed to happen. We, um... I'm very loyal and very respectful of individuals who take it on.

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Like an entrepreneur is a f- like a character unto themselves. [laughs] Like they are, they are unicorns, um, and, and they are intense people. Mm. And they move very quickly.

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And so I've never been one that's shied away from the pivoting or the, people call it pivoting or changes or chaos or whatever the fuck you wanna call it. Mm-hmm. Yeah.

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But, um, we've just developed with a lot of straight talk and a lot of, um, loyalty. I... You know, the one of the best things he's ever done for me in my career

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as his chief of staff is he has told leaders or shareholders or clients or whomever in a room that if

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I'm not in the room, like if Chris is not, if he says, "If I'm not in the room and Sue's in the room, then I'm in the room." So knowing that if I'm- Mm...

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in this room with people and he's not, and I say something or offer an opinion or a direction, he's saying it's coming from me.

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So that was a really great game changer for me, uh, and it really developed, helped me develop a relationship with him that I knew that he respected what I'm having to say, why I say it, who I say it to. And I love this.

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Um, do you think he just, like, came up with that idea? Or, like, did you advocate for that? Or, like, how...

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I, I, l- basically what I'm, what I'm wondering about is, like, how do we help make this happen, um, or encourage this to happen in other dynamics and other chief...

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Like, I guess if there's CEOs listening to this- Right. [laughs]... uh- I like these [laughs]... like, hey, this is what a, this would be a game changer for a chief of staff. It really would be.

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It, it, they should recognize that. Um, I'm not sure. You know, he may be listening to this later, and then he's gonna tease me that I was too kind to him.

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[laughs] But, um, but no, it r- it really is, it is something that I think a CEO should understand is- Mm... even if he or she as a CEO l- looks to their chief of staff and they know that that's true- Yeah...

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that's great. But vocalizing that throughout the organization or in your community or wherever you are, um, not just internally, but externally, really elevates that chief of staff role.

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It helps that person who, who is doing that role to execute your, your vision. Yeah. Like, he's a true visionary. Most CEOs, founders that I know are visionaries. They aren't the integrators.

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They aren't the people who make it happen. They can't. They're... He's terrible at it. [laughs] Like, that's why I'm here. [laughs] So. Uh, I can imagine, um, that may feel like a lot of responsibility sometimes.

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Absolutely. Um, or a lot of weight. Mm-hmm. Um, what's that like to know that when you walk into a room and Chris isn't there, that you are speaking and acting, you know, potentially on his behalf?

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What does that, what does that feel like knowing you have that, like, weight on you, and responsibility- It, it can-... and opportunity? It, exactly. It, it is both that. It is definitely that.

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It's an opportunity, um, and I don't take it lightly. But it's also, it feels great. Mm. It, and not, it- it's, it's nice to understand and know that I have had the experience, that he trusts.

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And now my leaders look to me, um, for the same trust and, and- Mm... help, I suppose, in a different way. Like, I really am kinda like this, uh, interpreter of- Mm... Chris's vision, and then a filter.

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Like a, he's a former pilot, so I like- I said we could cuss on this podcast, and you're talking about filtering now. [laughs] I know, right? [laughs] I know. I'm, I'm watching my Ps and Qs out, totally.

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[laughs] Um, but he's a former pilot, and, and so I like to use the analogy- Mm... that I'm this air traffic controller. Mm. So, you know, taking the information that he gives to me and so on, and, and then back up.

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Um, I've had some pretty-Hard conversations with him too. Mm. And there has been swearing- Mm... and, and like, uh, "I'm gonna fire you," you know? Mm. Like, "What the hell?

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Quit doing this," or, "Our people don't understand that." And- He said that? Uh, no, I said that to him. [laughs] Oh. [laughs] I'm sure he's wanted to fire me numerous occasions. [laughs] Yeah.

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[laughs] But, um, no, we, we have... I think by him saying those things, like you said, uh, as a CEO, they, they should verbalize that to their people because it helps me do my job, for sure. So you wanted to fire him?

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I did. Mm. I did. K- well, I think he wanted me to fire him at one point. [laughs] It's like, 'cause it, it's hard, man. Like, he, he is this pulse of energy- Mm... for the entire company.

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And when he's off, if he's having a bad day, um, the company feels like, oh, they're, they're worried or they're scared- Mm... or they're, "Why is Chris this?" Or, and it's bullshit.

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And, and people have to get past that. Like, he can't always be on, and it's a, it's a frustration point for him, for sure. But he is also an entrepreneur, so he does 700 million fucking things- Mm...

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all day long, and if he's not doing that, then he's unsettled. Mm. So there's this fine line of where we're just gonna slow things down for a while right now and just work on execution and getting it done.

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Go the last mile. We have a leader that is brilliant and has... continues to challenge us by saying we have to go the last mile, like close this fucking loop once- Yeah...

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and for all, because it's, it's hard because an entrepreneur will wanna just shiny thing, shiny thing, right? Like, let's go. Yeah. Um, why didn't you fire him? Right, I, I, yeah, well, when I say that, you know.

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[laughs] I'm just, well, yeah, no, 'cause he's too good. [laughs] He's too good. He's too good. And then I'd have to fire myself and, shit, then what would I do, right? [laughs] Yeah. What, um,

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what, what do you think you would do? I think there's a lot of talk around, like, what are the transferable skills or what does, like, you know, what does the role look like after a chief of staff role? Mm.

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Like, what do you think? Uh, obviously you've, you know, been very loyal to this company- Mm-hmm... and have, have worked your way up and, you know, developed a friendship.

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Um, can only imagine the skills that you've, you've developed and stuff. But what do you think, like, could be next, or what do you think, like, would be possible if, like, you were like, "You know what?

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I wanna do something else"? God, I was just talking about this with my new friend, Leslie, that I just met he, uh, here. Um,

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she's, you know, in around the same age as me, and we were kinda laughing saying we feel old, um, in some of this crowd- Mm... because it's a lot of young, very smart, uh, people, capable people. And then

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just hearing what they're having to say is like, "Fuck yeah, I've done that already." [laughs] Like, "Oh, yeah, I did that already." Yeah. Or, "Oh, yeah, that's really true." And, um, so we were laughing saying,

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a- another f- uh, really good close friend of mine who's, uh, really s- way smarter than me, um, we were talking about, "You know, maybe we should do this consulting." Mm. Um,

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kind of a little, we could have two or three clients maybe, and [laughs] we could make a million dollars, and we'd only have to work half, like, part-time kind of thing. Sounds good. [laughs] And from a beach somewhere.

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Um, yeah, that's might be something, but I'm having, uh, I've, I feel like, uh, this current position is never boring. Mm.

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And, um, I like the stability sometimes of when it does, sometimes, if Chris is listening, sometimes [laughs] slows down. Um, 'cause you catch your breath again, and then, and then you're off to something else. Like, uh,

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I have always kind of been there. Like I said, working in politics, every four years you have to- Mm... bust your ass and get reelected. And it's a, you know, at any time you can be f- terminated. So

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those kinds of things never scared me. They don't ever... Uh, it's, I'll find a, I'll find a spot next time. Um, but this gig right now is, is fun and, um, challenging for sure.

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Uh, this opportunity this weekend is, like, the last two days and now this weekend in New York is amazing. Mm. And I would not have that, have had that opportunity, um, without, you know, a boss like Chris for sure.

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And the support from our leadership team when I'm away is fantastic. I've been getting s- messages on Slack like, "How's it going?" [laughs] And, "What are you learning?"

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And, "Are we, you know, what's gonna happen when you get back?" And- Mm... so it's great. Nice. Um, is there anything else you wanna share to existing chiefs of staff or aspiring chiefs of staff?

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Um, I, I would say, like, you know, if, is lean into that relationship- Mm... building. Uh, and I think, uh, Bradley and his chief of staff yesterday really talked about that.

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Uh, it's a, it's a cool experience if you can get there. It, for sure. I am privileged to know a lot of information about the company. I also sh- I'm not a shareholder, but I, I [laughs]

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take that weight, uh, with me every day. And it's, it's hard, but, um, it's fun when things happen. And so I would just tell people to... I would encourage them to develop this trust, this loyalty.

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There's nothing wrong with, I think m- maybe now in today's day and p- day and age, people look at, "Oh, wow, you've been there for 10 years. That's really, like, what's wrong with you?" Mm. Like, "What's happened?"

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Like, "Are you just settling for in this role?" Yeah. And that's not the case with the chief of staff role.

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Um, I've, I've kinda, we've come across this, um, organization that we used to work with called Results, and they have a f- a f- kind of a top grading program. And you, you look at your staff individually,

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A, B, C kind of thing, and there's three kinds of A players.

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I would be considered, like, an, I think it's an A3 player, and that's somebody who does their job very well, is great at what they do, uh, all, all those attri- attributes, but I don't want to go up the ladder anymore.

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Mm. But that doesn't mean that I don't wanna learn new things or challenge myself. It's just that I don't need to progress up a ladder anymore. So, um, that's okay. Like, I- Yeah...

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I, you know, you can be an A player and be that person, which I feel like in an administrative role, like an EA, is where you start. And, um,

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you are that player, that person that's strong and confident and, um, ability to execute and is that loyalty, but you get there only through developing relationships, and that would be a, a big start for sure.

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Well, Sue, this has been an A3 podcast episode, so [laughs] Right. And I didn't even, I think I swore a couple times, but [laughs] yeah. Yeah. Well, thank you so much. Thank you. I really appreciate it, Sue. Yes.

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Thank you.

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