[upbeat music] Hey friend, it's David Nebinsky, the community lead here at the Chief of Staff Network.
We help chiefs of staff through the three Cs: cohorts, curriculum, and community, via Slack with over 900 people in it. Learn more about our membership, events, and programs at chiefofstaff.network.
There you can also learn more about our upcoming New York City BrainTrust Mini-Conference on Thursday, February 13th. It's a proven mini-conference focused on peer-to-peer learning and problem solving.
It works, so we keep hosting it. In this episode, you'll learn from Sophie K., who's a chief of staff at Frame.io, which was acquired by Adobe in 2021.
You'll learn about how Sophie got her first chief of staff role, what it was like working at Frame during the M&A and her role in it, how her role has evolved post-M&A, building relationships, and so much more.
Also, Sophie's planning to be at that New York City BrainTrust Mini-Conference on February 13th. Hope to see you there. Excited for you to level up as a chief of staff. Here we go, Sophie. Sophie, welcome to the show.
Thank you so much. [laughs] Happy to be here. We were just reminiscing on the first time, I think maybe the first time we got together in person.
That was, like, 2021, 2022 when we started to talk about, you know, in-person events, et cetera. And, um, yeah, it's been crazy. Like, last year I think we did, like, 14 New York in-person events. That's wild.
Like, basic- basically monthly. That's wild. Yeah. I think when we first met you were talking about your vision, Tom's vision for getting people together. How can we spur collaboration- Yeah...
and just relationship building, and we were also coming off of, you know, an era of everyone not engaging with one another in- Yeah... real life, and how can we translate the connections we were building on
Zoom probably- [laughs]... um, to the real world as the- Yeah... real world became somewhat normal again, and- Here we are [laughs]... look at how much you've grown. [laughs] Yeah.
And you spoke at our two-day Chief of Staff Connect Conference in October, uh, 2024, and, um, yeah, it's just, uh, I just think it's amazing how these kind of relationships keep going and, um, and I appreciate all your support over the years.
Um, uh, so we like to start off around, like, the chief of staff role. How did people get it? How would you say you got your first chief of staff role? It's a great question and probably not a short answer.
[laughs] Uh, probably most chief of... Some chiefs of staff will likely be able to relate. My career path, my journey, has not been very linear. Mm-hmm.
And that's something that I, I very much lean into as something I've discovered is a superpower in later years, but perhaps earlier on was, was a point of confusion.
I have built a variety of companies from the ground up. I've been employee one, I've been employee 10, uh, I've been employee 40, and, you know, worked across startups and venture capital and various arenas within tech.
And at the company I was working for during COVID, a dental healthcare startup based in New York City, I had done a few different jobs throughout the company as we were scaling from that 40 people to let's call it, you know, 250, 350, and going from based in New York to based around the country.
Um, I cycled through supporting our chief design officer as his right hand. My title was not chief of staff- [laughs]... but I was his right hand.
I helped to build up our product design team, our brand team, our marketing team from the ground up. I then built up a program management function of some kind, more tied to marketing.
Uh, and skip ahead to end of, uh, 2020. 2020, I was feeling like there was a gap, you know. Mm-hmm. My, my role was so diverse. I had my hands in a variety of different teams and functions across the company.
I knew that I loved building teams and I loved building product, and I loved to not be tied into a singular focus, but I felt that there was something missing.
And so as I went to go about my job search, I reflected on, you know, what am I good at? What should I be doing? Some people are very closely tied to I'm a product manager, I'm a customer success manager- [laughs]...
I'm a sales manager. In my case, I had done a little bit of everything- Mm-hmm... uh, at a variety of different companies and different industries.
Uh, and so it was a moment of where can I grow my path in a way that both excites me and where I can make a really big impact on a company?
And it was at that time that the chief of staff role was becoming a little bit more well known- Mm-hmm... but I would say still in its, its infancy, if you will- Yep... versus how well known it is today.
Um, and so by talking to the founder of the Chief of Staff Network, uh, and talking to others, I started seeking out the chief of staff role because it would align me to the role of a CEO. When I, when I- Mm-hmm...
was a little bit confused about what I actually wanted to do now, I thought, "Okay, let's think about what I wanna do in 10 years." The answer was, I wanna run a company. So how...
What is the delta between where I am today and running a company?
The chief of staff role would help me accelerate my understanding of what it means to be a CEO, to have a multiplier force impact on the day-to-day of running a business, and learning about it by, you know, being in tandem with the person who's running that company.
And so I started to look for chief of staff roles.
I had a few different offers, and I'm sure we'll get into it, but I ended up landing at, uh, where I am today, which is Frame.io, because software was a little bit new to me. It was scary. It felt like a challenge.
And, uh, the founder, uh, was unbelievably smart, passionate, ambitious, uh, things that I really respected and admired and wanted to be inspired by. And so that is how I ended up there.
And this was, like, uh, through networking, applying online, you know- Great question... a cold DM? What? A little bit of everything probably. [laughs] Those, um... People who know me, I'm a relationship person. Mm-hmm.
Um, funny enough, I think Frame was one of the only companies I applied to via LinkedIn. So it's actually-The reason I'm at Frame.io is actually not the advice that I would recommend to most people.
[laughs] I think that was a little bit of luck that, you know, the head recruiter at the time, who I consider a very, uh, wonderful and good friend, um, she saw my resume and, you know, she reached out to me.
But it's really, really, really hard to stand out in a pile of resumes. And so my approach to- my approach to job searching I would actually extend to my approach to my career.
I don't think you should only be building relationships and seeking new people and new faces out when you're looking for a new job.
The way to do it really effectively is to continue building those relationships, even when you're in a job you love.
Really explore your community, whether it's through alumni networks from where you went to as early as high school. Mm. I do it all the time.
I take the name of my high school and I say, you know, "Insert high school alum interested in connecting."
Um, you can do it for the college you went to, hobbies that you have, but finding people who share one thing in common and leveraging that to kind of get your foot in the door and ask them to get a coffee, learning about where they've been, what they do, their path.
Um, people often are really, uh, you know, humbled by the interest in people who are younger than them learning about wanting to learn about their career path.
And so I've really leaned into that both while I'm at a job I like and also in the, in the sphere of, uh, job searching.
And so I was constantly on calls or running around New York to get coffee with people, um, not to ask them to find me a job, but to build a connection and to build a relationship. Mm.
And actually, the job I had before Frame.io I specifically got because of a coffee chat that led to another coffee chat that led to a founder being contacted that I was the, I was the perfect person for the job.
Beautiful, beautiful, beautiful. Um, it's, it's interesting how you said, like, "I got the Frame job not of, like, the advice that I would give."
Um, Teddy Owen, who's on the podcast, he's, he's been a, a member of the network. He said similarly too, it was like, "Someone saw my resume on a pile." [laughs] And it was like, it's, like, funny.
It's like, you know, I guess it's like you never know what, what'll work. Obviously, there's like- Yeah... you know, what are the odds or what do we think is best? But, um- Right. Right.
And just creating the space to not be in a rush. Mm. 'Cause I think if you continue to build relationships...
You know, I'm connect- I'm catching up with someone actually later today that I, I met a few years ago, and we reconnect, you know, every quarter or every half year just to keep in touch.
Keeping in touch with, you know, people and humans, um, you, you might actually find your next job when you're not looking for one.
So some of the best things that happen, have happened in my own life are the things that are unpredictable and unexpected.
Um, and so you wanna create space for those things to float around, you know, to float across your desk, not when you're actively looking for them.
And, and those things might really surprise you, and the relationship building, I think, is just key. It helps with your, you know, reputation.
People talk, um, and people want to connect other smart, kind, great people to other smart, kind, and great people that they know.
And especially in the startup community, whether in you're, you're in New York or you're in another city, people are constantly looking for smart, ambitious, thoughtful people to help build their idea.
Um, whether it's from the ground up or whether they've scaled to a Series C, people need smart people to come help.
Um, and so if you're at the top of someone's list as a smart person that is a really good addition to a team, they're gonna reach out to you. Yeah.
Maybe not every time, but enough times that there might be one time where it's actually the right opportunity to pursue and you weren't expecting it. Love. Okay. So then at Frame, what was, uh,
what did your role look like when you started? So when I first started, it was earlier in 2021. I came onto the team as employee 200-ish, uh, which, in my mind, was super big.
[laughs] I had, uh, which is hilarious to look back on. I had never joined a company of that size. Uh, I had interned at really big companies during college, but I had never joined a later, uh, a later stage startup.
So I was coming in as the second ever chief of staff. Mm. I was not the first chief of staff to the founder.
So it was awesome that the former chief of staff had moved into a new role, and I had her there to really be a mentor and to help me get my bearings.
Uh, so when I first came in, my remit was, you know, how can we run and operate the business effectively, and how can we continue scaling, not only for growth, but for an eventual exit?
Uh, I was responsible for all of the standard chief of staff, uh, roles and responsibilities. You know, how do we effectively operate our leadership team? What is our overall operating cadence quarterly, annually?
You know, should we have an OKRs program? The answer is yes. Great. [laughs] Sophie, go create an OKRs program. Um, and just generally being
the strategic operator tied to the leadership team that was ready and able to contribute and drive progress on any strategic initiative really that touched the company.
So I was working across, you know, product design, sales, customer success.
There were leaders across the company who would tap on my knowledge or my support if they were, you know, facing something that was ambiguous or, um, or challenging, whether it was people related, it might've been project related, product related.
So it was really just operating across the full spectrum of the company, and then tying back to keeping my founder super informed. He could not be everywhere at once. Mm-hmm. So in many ways, I was a body double for him.
But also in many ways we were, you know, throwing spaghetti at the wall for, you know, how can we continue growing this business and, you know, thinking big, not just thinking about the day-to-day minutia that we had to tackle.
Uh, and those were some of the things that I loved most about, about the role in that, in the early days. And then, um, Adobe acquired Frame. They did. [laughs] Um, what was, what was that like when
it was kind of happening? Like- Sure. Yeah. Uh, it was a lot of things. [laughs] It's to this day the, the-The most fantastic part of my career thus far. Mm.
With respect to all of the other parts of my career thus far, it was the biggest challenge, the biggest thrill. Uh, I think I was very surprised.
You know, when I joined Frame, part of why I chose Frame over other companies is because I, I believed in their founder, I believed in the team that I had met, and I believed in the product, uh, and the vision of what this would do for the creative world, uh, at large, not just for the customers they were serving then, but for the potential impact, um, and market they could address in the future much more broadly.
And I expected, like any chief of staff who joins, you know, a growing, impressive company, you know, "Okay, I'll work here for one to two to three to four years.
Hopefully there will be some kind of exit and I can contribute to that success." In my case, this... You know, the idea of acquisition came about almost three months- Mm...
uh, into being at Frame, so very, very, very quickly I was thrust into the underground secret world of trying to push an acquisition forward.
So when you first kick off the idea of acquisition, you obviously have to set the terms with the company that's interested in acquiring you. You involve bankers, you involve a lot of externals, you know, legal.
Um, but then you have to figure out, okay, who is the task force really inside of our company who's going to help us with everything from due diligence to comms to presentation decks to really, quote-unquote, "operating the acquisition work"- Mm...
that needs to happen for the next seven to nine months. Uh, and so that was in the immediate term, let's call it the first one to two months, probably five of us.
And so one of the biggest challenges of actually going through and, you know, working on the acquisition day in and day out was that I couldn't tell anyone else at the company that that's what I was working on.
I still had to be the chief of staff. I had to be spearheading strategic initiatives. I had to be helping to build up new functions. I had to be, um, you know, running the OKRs process that I had- Wow... built.
Um, so we had to run the business as well as run the, run the process, and that was definitely a tricky balance. Um, I think we all learned an incredible amount. We worked very hard.
Um, but the early days of navigating the acquisition, that was the biggest, uh, the biggest hurdle that we faced.
And, and I was really, you know, part and parcel to the operating group that was driving all of that forward from start to finish. Uh, and we ended up...
You know, we are now a very happy member of the, of the Adobe family, and we're continuing to, you know, push towards, you know, very, very close fundamental integration.
We've made a lot of progress over the past three years. And what I, what I now know that I didn't know before was that, you know, acquisition and integration, it's a long, long process.
[laughs] It's not a, it's not a, you know, you get acquired, you announce it, you integrate, and by the end of next year you're all set. Um, so that's been really interesting.
Is there anything that you wish that you would've known when you were in that task force? Like, is there, like, certain resources that were helpful or that, like, you know, was it... Yeah, a- anything else about, like...
Yeah. It's a great question. Uh, it's a really good question. No one's ever asked me that. Uh, I think one of the things that I wish I would have thought of more frequently is that it's okay to not have all the answers.
Um, and this is actually a much larger philosophical belief that I have in general. Uh, especially in the chief of staff world, I think there's a misunderstanding that you need to be perfect in order to be effective. Mm.
Um, and my whole MO, my whole identity is oriented around not being perfect. Uh, it's about being, you know, not just good enough, but great enough. Mm. Um, and sometimes being good is okay.
Um, not everything needs to be perfect. Not everything needs to be great. It needs to be good enough so that you can keep moving forward.
And I think in the context of acquisition, there were a lot of asks that we were getting from a lot of different places.
There were, there was a lot of documentation we had to find, um, some of which was easier to find than others. We were a startup.
And so I think not sweating the small stuff as much would be good, and just remembering at the end of the day, you know, what, what are we trying to accomplish here?
We're trying to, you know, create space for two incredible, incredible companies to come together and to create such an outsized impact on the market.
Do what we need to do in order to make that happen, and don't sweat the, like, absolutely fine, fine details of every single little thing, uh, because I think the more that you have to do, the more that you end up sweating the small details.
And at the end of the day, we did a great job, it wasn't perfect, and that was good enough. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
Is there anything about, like, you mentioned how you were kind of, like, you still had your regular job and then you were, you know, running the acquisition. Um, is there anything about, like...
Any tips on or any, like, things that you all did to, like, make that happen?
So basically, like, to, to a chief of staff that, like, somehow gets on this task force next week, um, was there anything about like, okay, we had these, like, certain meetings on the calendar and they had, like, you know, like, certain kind of, um,
des- description of what the meeting was that was vague and secretive, um, so that, like, people could see that you were busy, but yet they didn't know what, like, you were working on?
Or was there anything about, like, we created a separate Dropbox or a separate Google Drive? Mm. Was there anything like that that was, like, kind of like nuance of, like, how you were able to, like, navigate that?
Navigate the privacy need? Yeah. Um, yeah. I mean, I think, one, startups love code names. [laughs] So everything will have a code name. But I actually think code names are not the best strategy- Mm...
uh, because if there's a code name, there's obviously something that someone is trying to hide. Mm. Um, I find them, to some extent, on occasion, performative, um, although fun.
Uh, but I think just leaning into all of the, you know, filters we now have to keep things private and just being hyper organized. Um-And again, just leaning into where you are.
If you are operating in the context of the acquisition work, be present, be organized, be committed, and be focused.
And if you're operating in the context of your chief of staff role, take that other hat off, take a deep breath- Right... and just move forward. Don't think about the fact that you're hiding all that other stuff.
It'll just be baggage and it'll be weight- Yeah... that you really don't need. Um, and what people don't know won't hurt them. Like, at the time when everyone is meant to find out, they will.
Um, and it's just, it's a deterrent to your own success and your own impact, um, if you let the, you know, the double-pronged responsibilities get in each other's way.
And so I think my learning was put on the hat that you need to wear at any given time. Try to be really diligent with how you spend your time.
I think especially in today's day and age, we all feel like we have no time, and time passes- Yeah... so quickly. But at the end of the day, we have 24 hours every single day.
How we spend every single moment is completely within our control to some extent. And so choose how you're going to prioritize your time.
Prioritize it ruthlessly, and then once you decide what you're going to do, protect that and do it. Um, easier said than done in retrospect- Right... but that's what I would suggest, is really have your two hats.
S- you know, separate them as needed, um, and really be present with the people that you're working with in either, in either scenario.
What I would encourage people to avoid is to, you know, get in your head and feel like you're hiding something, and then make a little... You know, make a face when someone asks you what you were doing an hour ago.
[laughs] Um, it's just like you... You know when someone asks you how your day is, you can be as brief or as detailed as, as you decide to be. Everyone has a lot more going on than we ever know that, that's going on.
And so, you know, just remember that. Um, it's, it's for the good of the company, and it's your job as a steward of the company to protect that.
It's completely, completely critical that you don't get in the way of the acquisition being, um, being successful, and part of that is just privacy. And then when the acquisition closed, you talked about integration.
Like, how did your role change? And w- also along the way, are, are there like... Were there conversations about like, "Hey, okay, like, I know this is what the company needs, but, like, my role, I, I'm better at this."
Mm-hmm. Like, was there any like... Is this a fluid process on, like, how your role is, like, evolving given, like, a lot of changes that are happening at the company? Yeah.
I, I would say one of the things I really respect about where I am now and respect about the, the founder that I had been working with, he cared so much about people.
And so at every single step of that acquisition process, he had an eye towards how do I make this a g- a benefit to all of my employees who have worked so, so, so hard to make this possible. He really honored that. Mm.
Uh, and so when we got closer to knowing that we were, that the acquisition would go through, we started to talk about, you know, what's next for me and how our team might evolve, uh, given our...
Given, you know, joining a m- a much larger corporation. There were still a lot of unknowns. Yeah. We didn't really know what was going to happen, and so planning for the unknown is hard. Um,
but we talked about, again, going back to what we discussed earlier, I've had a lot of different experiences. I've worked in marketing, I've worked in sales, I've worked in business development.
I ran a nonprofit in a prior life. Um, you know, and I was chief of staff, and I really loved being chief of staff.
And as we started to think about what the, what I would want coupled with what the business would need, we decided there was a really big need both on the marketing side as well as on the M&A side.
So the mergers and acquisitions/corporate development side.
And so my immediate focus once we joined from, you know, December through the next half year was really working day in and day out with the, uh, the corporation's corporate development team to make the acquisition successful and to navigate the process of integration, to triage challenges as they came up head-on.
Uh, so I was really, you know, program managing, operating the acquisition for the better part of half a year. Uh, I then ended up, you know, once, once the acq was...
The integration activity with corporate development was dying down a bit, I was able to shift my focus, and we had a bit of a gap in, uh, our marketing leadership. Mm.
And so I cycled to support content marketing and build a program management team and strategy and operations for marketing.
And then about, you know, let's call it a year later, uh, you know, again, as we always say, it's really important to advocate for yourself. There won't be change unless you ask for it.
And so, you know, I went to my, my boss and the founder and, you know, really articulated my, my bread and butter and my passion is in operations.
And so over the course of time, I cycled back to core business operations.
And over the last two or so years, I have been building a centralized operations team for Frame, uh, which is business operations and strategy, uh, program management of a variety of dif- of different kinds, both marketing, go-to-market, engineering, uh, program management.
And so that's what I've been doing since then. So I've had a few different- [laughs]... lives and identities as always seems to happen.
Um, but it all kind of has been a part of this really exciting journey, and I've experienced a lot of different... I think I have grown up in my career as Frame has also grown up as a company. Mm.
And we have continued changing with each other. And so change management probably is the one constant.
Uh, that has been something not necessarily in my title, but something that I've had to address and really work, work very closely with the rest of our leadership team on.
And what does that change management look like or, like, how-How do you think about being effective at change management? It's really hard. [laughs] There's no real blueprint to it.
Uh, and I think some change management is very large scale, and some change- Mm... management is day to day. I would probably bucket it into people and process to some extent.
There's a lot of change that needs to happen.
Um, when companies evolve, even independently, and there's a lot of change when you go from being a 300-person company to being part of a 25,000-person company, and so a lot of it was actually related to culture and morale.
Uh, and so I was also leaning into one of my strong skillsets, which is, you know, being, you know, a culture carrier and really trying to help maintain our culture while also embracing the parts of Adobe that we not only align to, um, but should, you know, be partnered with.
Adobe is an incredibly, incredibly people-focused fantastic company, and so we actually had a lot of that alignment automatically.
It was just a matter of, you know, bringing people along in, you know, in the sphere of change. Um, and then there's all of the process work.
I think as a company gets integrated, no matter where you are, people's reporting lines will change, functions will get moved to other parts of the business but still need to focus on the same product, and so how do you maintain connections and bridges to the people who need to operate effectively together day to day when you don't rep- report into the same leaders?
That's been a really big focus for how to keep our company successful, um, in the integrated model. So that's a bit of change management.
But yeah, I would say it's both people, um, and process, and just being, trying to be very pragmatic and attentive and realistic about what the problems of the day are so that you can realistically address them, rather than letting things kind of roll under the rug and set them and forgot them.
Um, I try to address things head on, or try and even get a, you know, get ahead of it. Um, but it's not always easy. What are the problems of the day today? [laughs] That's, uh... [laughs] Can't, can't share that.
[laughs] Um, I would say we've actually, in a really special way, we've, we're actually coming off of three days, you know, s- spending time with each other in New York, you know, 150, 200 people, uh, together for three days, which really goes to show the impact of being in person together.
We're a very distributed, geographically distributed- Mm... team.
Um, and so I think if anything, we're continuing to figure out how to be really effective and impactful while all living in different places around the country.
And I have to say, we've done a really excellent job of that. Um, but I would say, you know, we're going into, you know, it's a new year. We just kicked off our strategy and our goals for the year.
We've really, really, really big goals for Frame.
We launch our new product, uh, in late 2024, and we have to basically, you know, re-educate the market on, you know, we used to be this very specific type of product, and now we are capable of so much more.
And so I think that will be, you know, a lot of our attention will be to evolving and improving our core product, as well as, you know, f- helping our customers, both existing and newer, understand the, like, vast, vast capabilities of what we have spent the past four years building.
Uh, which is really exciting, but again, change management with customers also- [laughs]... uh, is also maybe another part of the change management.
And, um, we actually hosted a panel in New York with one of Adobe's most senior leaders, and something she said this week really resonated with me. She said, "I always run towards ambiguity." Mm.
Uh, and that is something that I completely align with, and I think it's part of why I was attracted to the chief of staff role in general, and it's part of why I've been able to take on a variety of different roles as we have continued to integrate.
Um, running towards ambiguity is exciting, it's challenging, it's sometimes overwhelming.
You know, not every day is a walk in the park, but the things that excite me most are the ambiguous things that I get to work with really smart people to help solve.
Um, and so I would say that's, that's also a part of change management. It's really ambiguous, and it changes- Mm...
and it shifts, and you need to be comfortable in the ambiguity to really move through it, instead of trying to move around it. And is there anything else about the M&A kind of process, integration,
um, anything else you wanna share, like, as a chief of staff in that process that you think is, like, helpful to chiefs of staff that are, uh, yeah, in similar spots? I would just say enjoy it. [laughs] Uh, you never...
I feel a lot of gratitude- Mm... for having had the opportunity to go through this process, uh, to work through it with, you know, the Frame team that I just so deeply adore and admire and respect.
You literally can't plan to be a part of an acquisition. It just happens. Um, with a lot of hard work, obviously.
But if you go to be a chief of staff at a company, there's just no guarantee that you're gonna be there, be there while there's an exit.
And so I would say really, like, lean into that gratitude and do what you can to contribute, do what you can to support the process, and even if, you know, there are certain acquisitions that don't end up going through, um, and I think it's similar to companies that, you know, don't end up succeeding in the end, it's still an unbelievable learning experience and an unbelievable thrill.
And so I would say really don't worry about what the end will look like. Worry about where you are and what you can do day to day to help move things forward. Mm.
And again, don't sweat the small stuff, but really enjoy it. It's such a unique experience that not everyone, uh, again, it's luck, not everyone is lucky enough to get to experience. Um, and so make the most of it.
And then, um, is there anything else you wanna share to existing chiefs of staff or aspiring chiefs of staff more broadly? I would say, you know, again, it's really, the chief of staff role can be lonely.
Uh, you're the only chief of staff in most cases. Mm. And so-One of the, one of the things that I've leaned into over the years is relationship building, and I mean that very genuinely.
I don't mean go around the company and build relationships for the sake of politics, but, you know, really get to know people. Like, earn their trust, earn their respect, um, understand what they do and why they do it.
I think we are so much stronger together versus when we are alone. And so I am the type of chief of staff that will ask a question that I might worry is silly.
There's more likely than not someone else who has the same question. I ask questions, I seek partnership, I seek assistance. I'm never going to believe that I can do something better than if I had asked for help.
And so I did this with my founder, I did this with my colleagues, um, and I think that's a big reason why I'm, why I'm at Frame almost four years next month. Woo! Woo! [laughs] Uh, is because of the relationships.
The product is excellent, the vision is excellent, but it's really, it's the relationships and the people- Mm...
that have kept me going, and have not only enabled me to do my day-to-day job, but have made me such a stronger operator, and I have learned so much from the people that I have worked with. And so just remember that.
Even though you're the only person in your role, you have the capacity and the power to build those relationships and to invest time in nurturing- Mm... those relationships. So that's one.
The other recommendation I would have is, again, to not be tied up in perfection. Mm. You're g- you're gonna have a lot on your plate, expectations will be high. Be good enough, be great enough, and keep it going.
Um, and don't, again, if you make a mistake, learn from it and move on, you know? We don't... No one's perfect. I don't think anyone should be perfect. I- I certainly don't try to be perfect.
Um, and it's just about how much you make of the moments where you perhaps maybe didn't do as well as you might have wanted to.
The great news is that we always have the capacity to try again, um, to be honest about where we fell short, and to try and avoid doing that again in the future. Love, love, love, love.
Well, thanks for investing the time into this podcast episode- [laughs]... and our relationship, and the Chief of Staff Network.
And I guess if people wanna follow up, they can follow up with you up in Slack or on LinkedIn. 100%. I welcome... I constantly have phone calls with people or coffee with people who reach out to me.
Um, as I mentioned earlier, I do it to people. [laughs] You are welcome to do it to me. I love to learn. I love to meet people.
I'm so happy to share my story and my background, and, and if I can ever be helpful, I, I'm, I'll be the first to raise my hand to help. Amazing. Thank you so much, Sophie. Thank you.
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