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[upbeat music] Hey friend, it's David Nebinsky, the community lead here at the Chief of Staff Network.

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We help chiefs of staff through the three Cs: cohorts, curriculum and community via Slack with over 900 people in it. You can learn more about our membership, upcoming events and programs at chiefofstaff.network.

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There you'll see the fundamentals course, AI fellowship, and you'll also see our three Chief of Staff Connect conferences with the first one on May 15th to May 16th in San Francisco. Hope to see you there.

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This episode is with Ana Flavia Silva, the chief of staff at Section. Are you interested in learning more about AI as a chief of staff? Well, this episode's for you.

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Uh, in it you'll learn about how she got this high-profile chief of staff role, what she did in the first 30 days to add value, how she and Section are using AI, a framework to think about how and when to use AI, and so much more.

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Also, Ana will be speaking and leading an AI workshop at our next Chief of Staff NYC BrainTrust Mini Conference on Thursday, May 8th. Hope to see you there too.

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[laughs] I'm so excited for you to level up as a chief of staff. Here we go with Ana. Okay. So, um, we like to start off about, like, how people got their roles. Yes. Um, I saw that

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1,993 people applied for the role that you got. Yes. No more, no less. [laughs] So no pressure, but, like, how did you get that? That's a great question. Uh, probably one best reserved for Taylor, my principal. But, um,

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you know, I think when, with, like, any job, when you're applying for a job, there's really no secret sauce, right? Yeah. I think you try to do

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and be strategic about a lot of different things in the interview process, and luck plays a part of that as well. Um, thankfully, I had been, before I joined Section, at somewhat of a competitor.

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I worked at Morning Brew and they had, uh, their learning division. Mm. And that's what I, that's the team that I was on.

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And when that business, the learning division, shut down, I was looking for a chief of staff role- Mm... and saw that, you know, Section was hiring a chief of staff.

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I actually didn't think that they were hiring a chief of staff. I just looked at their careers page knowing that, you know, they did something similar to Morning Brew Learning. Oh, interesting.

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And was like, "Oh, maybe they have a community position- Yeah... or something like that," and then realized they had a, were hiring a chief of staff, so it really couldn't have been more perfect timing in that sense. And

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I knew somebody who was a teaching assistant for Section that had been a student of Morning Brew Learning, so asked them to do the classic, you know, "Ah, can you reach out to the hiring manager and put in a good word for me?"

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Um, you know, sent the resume and cover letter, uh, fo- followed up on LinkedIn. Right. You know, all the classics, kind of levers that you can pull,

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and got, you know, got the first interview, and I think that's kind of one of the hardest parts, right? Mm. Is really getting your foot in the door. I think once you get there, and really what I've learned,

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connections are everything. Mm. From the three years that I was in community, right, that was the biggest value add- Yeah... is building out that network, right?

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Uh, we always said, "It's not who you know, it's also who knows you." Mm. And so trying to leverage those connections and make sure they're genuine, right? Like- Yeah...

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if you never follow up with someone and all of a sudden you're asking for favors- [laughs]...

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they're not gonna be very likely to, to help you out, but, um, yeah, making sure you're, you know, maintaining and nurturing those relationships.

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Um, when I did start with the interview process, it was very clear they were all in on AI, right? Mm.

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So making sure that I was very up to date on AI news, what was happening in the space, that I was using AI myself, uh, and could really point to those, that evidence, right, in my conversations.

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And so even if you weren't before the interviews [laughs]...

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an expert on that topic, making sure you're really diving deep, you know, while you're having those conversations, and I think that genuine curiosity and interest came through.

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And the other thing I'll say too, like the most important part of a chief of staff role is just making sure you're on the same page and aligned with your principal, right? Mm.

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So really asking, like what are they looking for? Yeah. Chief of staff roles can look so different, and Taylor was very clear that, like, she was looking for an operator, right? Mm. Someone who could

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really roll up their sleeves. Their section is a small team. Mm. It's a small startup, and we need people that are doers, too.

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It's not just someone who's gonna, you know, manage a le- leadership team or calendars and things like that, but someone who would actually be on the ground.

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So that's really what I leaned on in terms of my experience and showing, you know, what I had built before and, um, you know, things like that. Yeah. And then, um, it's nice having, uh, people post about stuff.

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Another thing that Taylor had posted about- Yes... she said, um, that you did two things in the first 30 days that set her up to make a big impact now.

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First one was, "She took real work off my plate in her first 72 hours." Oh, we're quoting. [laughs] We're quoting LinkedIn.

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I love it.Um, there's a second thing too, but this, this first 72 hours, what, what did you do there?

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I was put on a partner call, I think, on my second day and she basically told me, "You own this relationship now with this pa- with this partner, and part-- the main part of your job is gonna be, you know, figuring out partnerships- Mm.

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"... as a, as a new revenue stream for us." And so just jumped in.

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[laughs] Uh, got on that call, found out everything I could about that partner, um, you know, sent up the follow-up email, started building out a partnership strategy. Um, so really hit the ground running from day one.

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And again, I think going back to what I was saying, right? Having that kind of, like, alignment in the interview process of what they're looking for, it wasn't really a big surprise to me, right? Mm.

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By the time that I joined that I was gonna be working on partnerships and that was gonna be expected of me. I was very clear by the end of the interview process of, okay, this is Taylor's personal user guide. Yeah.

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This is, like, how she likes to operate. Oh. This is the operating principles at Section, like, making sure you know what you're getting yourself into- Yeah... um, so you can provide that value too, right, once you join.

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So she had a personal user guide and you- Yes... and you... Did you then make your own? I actually already had my own. Okay.

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So that was a little bit lucky, because she did bring it up, I think either the last or almost last intern, or interview, and she sent it over via email before the call so we could, like, talk about it. Nice.

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And I updated mine and sent it over to her. Yeah. So would definitely recommend just having one yourself. Yeah. Um, no matter what role you're in or what career stage you're in, right? Yeah. Just helpful to get people

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up to speed on how to work with you. And actually now at Section, you know, uh, we're very all in on AI. Ah. And one of the things that we have is a Claude project- Mm...

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that is a expert on everything Section, and part of the knowledge base of this Claude project is Taylor's user manual, as well as Greg, our CEO's, user manual.

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So, you know, instead of going to just Claude, the general LLM, and, like, typing in, "Oh, I'm trying to get buy-in for this initiative- Yeah... like, what would I argue or what would I do?" Yeah.

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They can go to this Claude project and say, you know, "Based on what Taylor cares about or what Greg cares about, you know, how would I position this?" And kinda use that thought partnership

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and it'll pull, right, from their user manuals. Wow.

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"Oh, Da- Taylor's very data-driven, so you should bring up this key point," or, you know, "Greg likes direct communication, is pretty blunt, so you should say it like this," and it, it's a lot more useful. That's crazy.

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And it works? It works. [laughs] Yeah, yeah. Our expectation now at the company is that every- everyone starts with their V1 there. Uh, V1 of? Of whatever they're working on, right?

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Whether it's a, it's a brief, a comms plan, a post, right? It, um, they build it there first. So they build it within the overall kinda Section project, uh, or, or... Yeah, say more. Yeah. So when, let's say,

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they're building a project brief, right, to share with the team, um, on a new initiative. Instead of kind of just opening up your Google Doc and starting from a blank page- Yeah...

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um, the Section expert Claude project has already the template of what our project briefs look like.

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It has our 2025 plan and target, revenue targets, and it has information on what our offerings are and things like that.

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So you could just go to Claude, the Claude project first and say, "I'm building a project brief for this project, this initiative," you know, "I'm presenting it to Taylor, Greg in my next one-on-one.

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Build me the project brief," and it'll... Something that would take you probably an hour, right? Like 45 minutes- Yeah... 60 minutes of work, uh, can be done in less than five. Wow. Okay. Yeah.

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So, and- And you can go in and edit, right? Yeah. Like, you should never be just fully cognitively offloading things to AI and saying, "Okay, I'm just gonna copy-paste this into a Google Doc- Yeah...

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to share with my leaders now." But it gets you to that V1 faster, right, of, of that document, so then you can go in, add your perspective, add color, and, and edit as needed.

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And so this is the, the Section Claude project that has all the key documents, I guess, of- Yeah, as part of its knowledge base that we keep updated.

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So that's, as I said, it's, you know, like, information on our product offerings, um, the user manuals of the leadership team, our operating principles, um, templates for our product and project briefs, um, the 2025 overall plan- Mm-hmm...

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and kind of strategy memo, um, things like that. So it has all of that company content- Yeah... and context at the starting point, so you don't have to keep giving AI, you know, that, that context.

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And who's overseeing that? I am. [laughs] I built it and I'm overseeing it, yeah. Okay. S- uh- The many hats of a chief of staff. Okay. So, so- Yeah... uh, yeah. So talk...

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So basically, you then went around the company and then... Or, or how did you come up with this idea, and then, like, what else-So yeah, then how did it get done? Yeah.

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To start, right, I think it's you have to have the right culture, right- Yeah... at the company. Yeah. And there's definitely a, a tinkering culture at Section.

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Um, and because we're very focused on AI and also teaching others about AI, we have to walk the walk, right? Not just, uh, you know, g- we have to eat our own- Yeah... dog food. So

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I've been tinkering with the various models and- Yeah... functionalities and capabilities that come out. Um, and when Anthropic launched Projects, that was one of the, the use cases we tried out, right?

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What if, um, something could replace our questions channel, right? Mm-hmm. If someone has a question about, you know, uh, what is Section's operating principle, or where, what does our project brief look like, or,

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you know, what does our style and messaging guide look like, instead of going to Slack and then waiting- Yeah...

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for somebody to answer that Slack, they could move faster, right, um, working with that AI if that AI already had it in its knowledge base. So started there. Did some thinking around, okay,

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if something or someone, right, if you, if you're going to onboard a new team member, what kind of context do they need on the company, right? Mm-hmm.

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What kind of documents would you already share with that person so that they're up to speed as soon as possible- Yeah. Yeah... on, like, how the company works? Yeah.

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And then treating AI as that new person you're onboarding, right, and just giving that context. Oof. Okay. Um, and do you... Like, do you refresh this once, uh, like, as needed? Or like, you know, sometimes when like...

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I know the, like, onboarding Google Drives and it's like, oh, wait, we uploaded this thing, and, like, it sits there for, like, you know- Mm-hmm...

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two years, and then someone new joins and you're like, "Oh, crap, I forgot that, like, there's this old file that's in there." Like, how f- uh, do you...

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Is this a part of your workflow to, like, make sure that you're, like, updating this? Or I guess maybe it's, like, not... doesn't change that much. No, it definitely changes. Uh, right we're... It's a startup.

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[laughs] A lot of things change. [laughs] A lot of things change quickly. Um, so yeah, there is a process, right, um, at least on a quarterly basis- Yeah...

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taking a look at what's in the knowledge base and what needs to be updated, and then just knowing, too, what's in there, right? And if we're already doing some type of update to one of the documents- Yeah...

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just knowing that that's another place where I have to swap- Yeah... swap in for the, the newest version, right, the latest. And I guess if you're, if you're using it and, like- Mm-hmm...

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you own it, like, I guess there's like- Yeah... you're, you're gonna be thinking about new stuff- Right... about it. Um... And again, it... Right. The expectation and the hope is that folks are using it every day, right?

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So not only am I looking at it- Mm...

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every day, so is everybody else at the company, and they can feel ownership to flag, like, "Oh, this document would be interesting to put in there," or, "Oh, I noticed this one- Yeah... is not the latest version," right?

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So really having it be something the entire team kind of cares for. Yeah. Um, what other use cases or what other things... How are, how else are you using AI in your role right now? That's a loaded question.

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[laughs] Um, I use AI for most things- Yeah... I would say that require me to do anything, really. At, at Section, we have a framework, right, where you can use it as a creator,

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a strategist, or an assistant, right, based on the kind of work, um, that anyone might have on their plate. And so, yeah, everything from an assistant, right, um, help me do this, help me put this together- Mm...

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help me look at this data and crunch the numbers, right, pull out insights, things like that. Uh, for research right now with Deep Research coming out- Mm... um, both in GPT and Perplexity is a great one, right? Mm-hmm.

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Um, so any time, you know, for a specific deck or even board decks, right- Mm... needing to find what's the latest news, um, that's very helpful.

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Creator, right, um, I need to create an email sequence for new partnerships or, uh, put together, um, you know, some type of

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brief for, uh, an enterprise pitch deck, right, something like this. Yeah. Um, again, helping get to that V1 very quickly. And then as a thought partner, right, um, I want to be a thought partner to the- Yeah...

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leadership team. How can AI help me be the strongest thought partner to them, right, based on what they care about, based on where our company is at, where the market is at, where the world is at, right? Um,

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making sure that, am I asking the right questions? What questions would AI ask, right? Um, am I missing an, a point of view that I'm not seeing? Mm. So helping me kind of expand my own thinking.

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So on the questions front, that-- going back to quoting LinkedIn posts here. This is- Yes... this is, uh- We're bringing it back... this is the...

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That, that was the second thing that Taylor has said was, like, that you asked, like, almost, like, non-obvious questions. Like, really... Mm. Well, I mean, we can pull it up. But it- [laughs]...

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basically it was like s- she s- she called out your questions. Um-I don't know if you were using AI then, but it sounds like you're using AI now in terms of like- Mm...

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before meetings you're like kind of thinking about like how- Yeah, I wouldn't say it's before every meeting, right? Yeah. But

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a, a few times a week I'm making sure that am I thinking about the business strategically- Mm... as well? Am I thinking about different things within the business strategically as well?

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And kind of having that back and forth and that exercise with AI to kind of strengthen my own point of view- Yeah... so that when I am in various meetings and in various conversations, you know, I can

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have a point of view that is, is strong. Um, I was not using AI as much at the beginning of my job. Okay. Um,

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I would say like everyone, you know, was very curious, but definitely working, I think, under a leadership and under a team that, um, encourages the use of AI and the experimentation with AI has definitely helped a lot.

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Yeah. I think that's a luxury that not everyone has. Totally. I think today a lot of companies are a bit confused- Mm...

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truthfully, of where to start with AI and, you know, what their policy is with AI and how to communicate that- Yeah... to employees. Um, so, so I'm lucky there.

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So at the start, less so, and I think at the start it was more driven by the fact that I always saw the opportunity of the role of chief of staff as being akin to like having a real world MBA.

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Mm. Right? You're getting a front row seat to how decisions are being made, what executives and leaders are thinking about, what boards are asking about, what they're caring about. So just based on those things- Yeah...

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like there's so many questions, right, that can c- can come out of that, and making sure that I'm understanding why,

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why is my leadership team talking about net dollar retention, and what does that even mean, and what d- how is that going to fit into our narrative and our strategy down the line, and how is that gonna connect with the decisions that we make when we're prioritizing certain things, uh, certain initiatives, right?

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We're a 30-person team, right? Mm. There's, there's a bandwidth problem- Yeah... and we need to really be prioritizing the things that's gonna move our objectives forward. So understanding all of that goes into that.

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Right. Um, and I guess like the kinda the quiet part here is that Taylor's the COO, and so- Yes, yes... um, it sounds like your role is also around like driving business value. Um- Absolutely, yeah. Yeah.

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Um, you mentioned this kind of like partner, uh, relationship that like you for- like immediately started to oversee. Is that, um... Yeah, how much time do you spend on partnerships or...

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And, and I know we collaborated a little bit- Mm... in the past. Um- Yes... how, how, yeah, like how would you like divvy up like your work? Yeah. And I know that's another loaded question [laughs].

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Yeah [laughs], that's a loaded question. But- But it's okay, let's unpack it. Yeah. Um, yeah, so as I mentioned, when I joined, that was like the first thing- Yeah... that Taylor put me on, and

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it was i- very intentional, right? It was not an unintentional decision. Mm. And a lot of the time when you're a Series A small team, 30 people, uh, startup,

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you need a way to justify your chief of staff. Mm. Right? And the best way to do that with any head count is tying them to revenue, right?

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So really starting in a position where I was going to be opening a new line of- Mm... of revenue for the company, right, a- and figuring that out, either proving it to be- Yeah...

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not worthwhile or proving it enough that we could scale it, right? Thankfully, the latter happened, um, which is great. But that really was the main, um, focus of my role to start with.

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So I would say about 60% of my role, um, when I started was partnerships. Mm.

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As partnerships grew and I started to prove out that, you know, there was something here, nowadays it's probably 70% of my role, with the other 30 being, you know, uh, a mix of maybe 20% project management- Mm...

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uh, or product management I should say. Mm. 5% being pinch hitting, right? So that's- [laughs] That's the reality of a chief of staff. Um, you know, sometimes you're an AE, and other times- Mm... you're

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whatever they need you to be. Yeah. Um, and then the other 5% I would say it's, you know, things like leadership management, right? Yeah. The leadership meetings, um, board meetings- Yeah... prepping for that.

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And you work remotely. I work remotely. Um, the... I guess the other piece here that I, I was curious about is like are you able to pull in numbers? Like it sound- Say more...

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um, through Claude, are you like going back to like this whole concept around like working for the COO and like, like are you pulling in numbers from like, "Hey, like I'm about to have a one-on-one and I wanna know what's happening with like this one course"?

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Um, like how are you getting a pulse onto like that type of stuff? Like is it through, I don't know, like other types of... Is it like Stripe or some other kind of like-BI related dashboard or you- Mm...

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and or are you pulling that in, um, Claude or some other kind of AI- Yeah... tool? Good question. I feel like for, for most of those types of things it's existing tech stack, right?

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Um, dashboards and Amplitude, Holistics- Amplitude, yeah... things like that, um, that pull from, you know, Stripe and, and all the good things.

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Um, I think where AI plays a role is helping me draw insights- Mm... from, from those numbers, right? A dashboard is a great start- [laughs]... in Amplitude, but sometimes it's, okay, so, so what? Right?

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[laughs] Like, what does that- Mm. Why does that matter to the company that, you know, um, a s- a course only had 55 enrollments, right? Mm. What does that mean in terms of revenue?

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What, what, how should I be thinking about this? Yeah. So that's really where AI can help, and usually those are inputs I give manually, right?

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I haven't yet set up, like, a agent that connects to my Amplitude and, and has- You said yet... you know, access. Yet. Yet being the key word. [laughs] Okay. That's a whole other can of worms. Happy to dig in there.

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It's very... The tech is here- Mm... and it's only gonna get better. I'm not sure it's great yet- Mm... but it's here. And at least I'm finding

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it's still not super accessible for folks outside of the tech and IT- Okay... department. I try to, I'm currently trying to build an agent- [laughs]...

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to- [laughs] There was an eye roll or- Yeah, there was an eye roll. [laughs] Uh, you know, an agent to assist a part of the chief of staff, uh, responsibility of, you know, a board deck help. Mm. Right?

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So essentially what it would do is kind of r- run the board deck through various LLMs and generate questions as a board member for the leadership team, right, for the C-suite, to best prep my C-suite prior to that board meeting, right?

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What can they expect in terms of, um, questions that they're gonna get? Any pushback? Any, uh, insights that they might hear from our board members, right? What, what can they anticipate?

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I do this work now currently myself. It's not hard. It's time-consuming, right? So how can I get that time back? Mm. Having an agent be able to do that. So really started looking at a lot of different tools out there.

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Mm. A lot of it, uh, you know, is, like, alien speak, and I'm like, "Oh, wow, I really wish I knew a little bit more about- Yeah... software engineering or anything."

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[laughs] Did you have, do you have much background, I guess, like, to paint a picture here to, to people that are listening, like, um... Yeah, did you have much, like, technical- I have zero technical background.

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[laughs] Okay. Okay. Yeah. Um, no. I studied international relations, so I think that's as far from- [laughs] Yeah. [laughs]... an engineering background- Okay. Okay... that you can have. Um,

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but again, like, it's that tinker mindset, right? Yeah. Like, and I think a big part of being a successful chief of staff is knowing that you can figure stuff out, right? Mm.

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You're a generalist most of the time and- Yeah... need, you know, need to have that kind of attitude. So there I went, um, [laughs] and found, you know, found some resources.

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There are tools out there, um, resources you can look into, like LangChain. I f- the one I ended up liking was, is called n8n. Okay. Uh, it was a little bit more the interface visually appealing and- Yeah...

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easy to work with. But then you quickly find that, you know, you need, you need access to, like- Mm... different tools, API keys, and all of this other stuff, and you can for sure get that, right, inside the org.

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But usually, like, not every employee inside the organization is gonna know, okay, what's their Google API key for the team account. Yeah. You know? And so it's still a little bit prohibitive in that way, right?

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Because you need to either have access to that- Yeah... or know who to go to. Mm. And they need to approve giving you that or sharing that for you. So it's not as easy as, "Um, I'm gonna go build this." Yeah. Right?

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Um, but I hope, my hope is that in time it'll become even more accessible to, to employees so that anyone can build an agent to help them in their, in their job. Yeah.

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And so it sounds like just in general, you're like, if something becomes tedious, something you're doing a lot, you're like, "Is there an AI approach to this?" Like, is there- Mm...

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an AI way to potentially make this easier, more effective? Like, it seems like that's just, like, running in the back of your mind. Yes and no. Mm. Right? Yes when it- it's tedious, but also yes when it's not, right? Mm.

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I think, I think there's so much potential with AI that even if I have strengths, like, there's always room for improvement. Yeah. And so,

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yeah, definitely I think if anyone's looking at the technology as something that's just for, like, task automation- Yeah... they're missing out on a big value of the technology.

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I think it definitelyAgain, that use case of using it as a thought partner in your role- Yeah... is probably less common across the board, right? I think we're

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used to going to software-like tools and having an input- Yeah... and having it spit out an output, and like, "Okay, great. That's, that's that, and it helped me with that one task."

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We're less familiar with, "Oh, I just gained this second brain- Mm... that can help expand my thinking and accelerate my learning and my conclusion to insights and things like that."

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So really using it, um, in that sense as a thought partner, I think can strengthen anyone i- in their role. Are there any other, like, experiments or, like, workflows that you're...

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I mean, it sounds like there's probably a lot, but, like, is there anything else that, like, really comes to mind of... Like, I thought this, this Claude projects for the, like, basically the company- Mm.

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Like, I thought that was fascinating. Is there anything else that you're like, "Okay, if you're a chief of staff and you're listening to this, like, you gotta do this one thing right now"?

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Gee, I think that's hard for a chief [laughs] of staff- [laughs]... because I'm sure any chief of staff learning or listening to this has completely different things that they're working on. Mm. But I think

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in general, like, I'll use a specific case that I've used it for, right? I'm sure that every chief of staff in their role has a, a focus area- Mm... or something that is- Yeah... a priority for them.

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For me, that was partnerships, right? Yeah. I haven't done partnerships before, right? Right. That's not my background necessarily, and I got put into that on day two. So figuring out, okay,

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what are the different types of partnerships that exist, right?

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Channel partners, distribution partners, all of the different ways you can think about partnerships, and using AI, one, to not only, like, educate myself, right? Yeah.

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Uh, get me to a place where I'm, like, more confident on what goes on in the space, but also when you're experimenting with a new line of business, thinking through, "Okay, what is the strategy here?" Right? Mm.

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So I definitely used AI a lot over the past year thinking, you know, giving the inputs of, this is the type of company we are, these are the goals that we have, this is what we wanna drive with partnerships.

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What i- what is a suggested strategy? Mm. Right? Like, how should I be thinking about this? Where should I be focusing on? What are different partnership models I should be thinking about and pitching?

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Um, who are the players in this, in, out there- Yeah... that can provide me with potential pros- has, can present itself as a potential prospect, right? So everything from, you know,

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opportunity identification, to strategy, to building the pitch for that specific type of partner, AI has helped me with all of that. Um, so much to talk about here. [laughs] Yes.

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I feel like we're just scratching the surface. Um, the... Um, I think we've covered a lot of stuff on AI. I think, I feel like we could keep on talking about this. Yes.

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But, like, so and you talked a little bit about kind of, like, the chief of staff role in general, and maybe, like, in your journey into it and how you're thinking about it.

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Is there anything else that you definitely wanna, like, share, um, as you've... a little bit more than a year into the role? Yes, a little over a year now.

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And just to go back to, uh, or the very first thing that we, we talked about on Link-y- you know- Yeah... Taylor's post on LinkedIn, setting the record straight [laughs] here- [laughs]...

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and also giving, giving a good, uh, tip, right, for anyone who might be looking for a chief of staff role. Um, of the, I forget ex- exactly what number. 1993. Yeah.

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1993, [laughs] uh, applicants that had applied for the role, three sent her kind of their point of view on the chief of staff role. I wanna set the record I was not one of those three.

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[laughs] I was, I did not have that great idea. I wish I had. Um, but it is a great idea, right?

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And so just like the user manual and having a user manual for yourself that you can pull on, that's another thing, you know, that as a chief of staff you can have in your backpop, pocket.

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What is your point of view of, like, how the chief of staff role helps drive the company forward and supports the leadership team or your principal? Like, what i- what are your beliefs and your- Mm...

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point of view on the chief of staff role and how you're gonna achieve those things? Uh, it definitely caught my principal's eye. Uh, those, all those three people did get interviews.

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And so, like I mentioned, like, getting the foot in the door is always- Yeah... the hardest part. I think it's definitely, um, a good strategy to get your foot in the door. [laughs] Setting the record straight.

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Um- Yes... anything else? Any parting, uh, any other parting thoughts or any, any... Yeah. Any requests? Any- Requests... yeah, I don't know. Asks, gives? I don't know. Any- Yeah... anything else we ha- Yeah.

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I think one thing that's really been on my mind lately is, okay, you've gotten the chief of staff role, you've been in it for some time, you know, how do you show career advancement? Mm.

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I think most chief of staffs, hopefully, you know, like I mentioned, it's a, it's a real life MBA. You're learning a lot. Yeah. You're moving fast. There's a steep learning curve.

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But then, you know, it's not your traditional, oh, if I start as, you know, a junior marketer and then gonna become a marketing manager and then a marketing associate- Yeah... and there's not a clear ladder.

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Just like community managers. [laughs] Just like community management, yes. Exactly. So, you know, how, how do you show that career advance- advancement for yourself and, you know, for your, for your career?

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Um, so that's been on my mind a lot. So- Would be curious. Yeah. If anyone's got thoughts on this, uh- Find me on LinkedIn. Yeah. [laughs] Here's my handle. [laughs] All right. Thank you so much. This was great.

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Thank you. Thanks for having me, David.

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[laughs] [upbeat music]