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[upbeat music] Hey friend, it's David Nebinsky, the community lead at the Chief of Staff Network.

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We help chiefs of staff through the three Cs: cohorts, curriculum, and community, via Slack with over 900 people in it. Learn more about membership, events, and programs at chiefofstaff.network.

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You can also register for our upcoming fundamentals course for new chiefs of staff that starts in January. Please register by January 10th. We also have a bunch of in-person events coming up, so check those out as well.

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This episode of the Chief of Staff Podcast is with Christel Desnoyer. In this episode, you'll learn about her chief of staff experiences.

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Among more, she used to be the chief of staff to the CEO at Techstars, her scaling framework, why the chief of staff role is hard, advice for new chiefs of staff, and so much more.

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Excited for you to level up as a chief of staff. Here we go with Christel. Before we dive into the chief of staff world, tango dancing. Oh my God. [laughs] Um, yes. What, what do you love about that?

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Well, I started couples dancing when I was 16. Okay. Uh, I was just on holiday, and there was this, uh, champion couple in rock 'n' roll, and they were teaching. And me being curious about just things- Yeah...

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I don't know about, I thought, "Let me try it." And then I did it for a week, uh, and then I ended up going home and taking rock 'n' roll lessons. And then- [laughs]...

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I ended up moving to all sorts of different countries. I lived in 10. And so every city that I was moving at, I had to switch dances. Oh.

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Um, so I started rock 'n' roll in France, and then I moved to UK, and they didn't know what it was, so I ended up swing dancing.

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And then I moved to San Francisco, and then I ended up dating a Cuban American who took me salsa dancing, uh, and the swing scene wasn't so, so great there.

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Uh, and then I moved to New York, and I was dating an Italian at the time, who wanted to [laughs] um, learn how to dance with me.

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And I picked the hardest possible one, which is tango, so we would both be beginners, uh, and learn together. And, you know, that relationship faded and, uh, I continued, and it's been 12 years. 12 years. 12 years.

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And tango's a little like, uh, yoga. It's a lifestyle. Hmm. Becomes addictive. Uh, you end up going every night to a different milonga.

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New York City being one of the most active cities out, outside of Buenos Aires actually, for tango. And, uh, there's something pretty magical about that dance, which is, especially as a female and follower- Hmm...

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that you have to learn how to fully surrender. Hmm. Uh, and somebody else takes control over your, your body, and it's kind of interesting. So being a very strong type A- [laughs]...

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I can tell you that my, uh- [laughs]... very Moldovan, uh, teacher had to crack me, uh, a few times and, and really teach me to trust. And learning how to trust is really something that,

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um, helps you get through life and builds really strong relationships, and- Hmm... that's how you and I met. Yeah. Wow, the life lessons from tango. I mean- Um-... should we just...

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Is this whole podcast about tango and what we can learn from tango and apply to our lives- You're gonna laugh... Christel?

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[laughs] I was having a conversation this morning with a good friend, and she said, "Why is everything ending up with tango with you?" [laughs] And, uh, I don't know.

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There's something very philosophical about that dance that you just bring into every aspect of your life.

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And I keep telling everyone and reminding all my founders and everyone, "How you do one thing is how you do everything," so. Hmm. And, and so, s- it's still... You're still active in tango? Like- Oh, yeah. Okay. Yes.

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Yeah. I, I go out every Friday. Uh, I used to go out three or four times a week actually when I was building, uh, Pomelo right before Techstars, um, just to, you know, get some energy out.

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When you're building a company, you just need some time for yourself to, to let it all out, and so tango was my outlet. And, uh, now not so much, I, I have too many events [laughs] in the evenings- [laughs]...

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that I go to. But, uh, tango every Friday, that's religious. And anyone that will ask me to go out or do something on a Friday or a tech event, I'll say no. [laughs] Like- [laughs]

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So it's, it's committing to the practice of surrendering, and- It-... trust. The trust piece really because you're, you're trusting the other person to not manhandle you literally.

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Um, but also to connect with that person deeply for just four songs. 'Cause when you, when you actually dance tango, you have to commit for four songs. It's not just one. Oh. Yeah. Um, it's called a tanda.

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And, uh, you just know that you're gonna have an experience with this person that you've never met before. Hmm.

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And you are gonna learn how that person moves, and that's the language that you're gonna be following in that moment, and it's just a moment, right? Um, sometimes if you enjoy it, you'll do another tanda.

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But, uh, usually it's just one tanda. And, uh, and there's something that you might not know is that the, the way you are invited to dance in tango is with your eyes. There's no words. Hmm.

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So the leader or the, the man will come over to the female follower and, um, just look at you. Hmm. There's a word for it, but I forget- [laughs]... every time what it's called.

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[laughs] But, um, that's literally how you do it. Uh, and, uh, yeah, it's very, very... And, um, body language reading and, and, you know, they always say mind and body.

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And so you can read somebody through somebody's dance and style. Obviously, how long they've danced and things like that. Hmm.

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And it's really incredible to have danced 12 years and to start dancing sometimes with beginners because it takes you back to that journey and, and you can feel it, right? Yeah.

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They're a bit more stiff, and they do simpler steps, but you still manage to connect with that person- Hmm... and that's incredible. The music is also something that you, you kind of have to connect to. Yeah.

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Um, if you don't, it's a bit hard, but. Beautiful. Well, um-I also hear a lot about kind of, um, moving around different countries and, um, and, and kinda coming to New York and stuff.

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And I a- am curious about, um, kinda your journey into the chief of staff world.

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And it seems like you've traveled a lot, a lot of different places, lived a lot of different places, um, and have worked in go-to-market, marketing. Um, and sometimes we see chiefs of staff then

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f- go from this role into a more operating type of role. Um, but you had a lot of operating experience, um, so I'm curious about, like, the operating experience.

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What about that made you want to get into the chief of staff world? So I, I landed in New York 13 years ago now. I've been in the US for 14.

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Uh, I did my grad school in San Francisco, and when I first moved here, I had 90 days on a visa to find my first internship to stop the clock, right? Mm. I was on OPT back then. Um, I...

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Fast-forward 10 years, I had built 26 entities, 24, uh, US entities for European SMEs in tech. So hardware, software, you name it, I had touched it.

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Med tech, like, all of it, small electronics, like microelectronics all the way to quantum lasers I was selling to MIT. It was ridiculous- Mm... the stuff that I've learned.

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But, you know, you- you're kind of in a job, they ask you to do something, and you're like, "Okay, I'm gonna figure it out," right? Uh, and then built the US entities for two Chinese companies.

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I lived and studied in China, Olympic year, so 2008. Um, and so once you've built enough companies, you have your playbook, right? Mm. Um, and that's what I talk a lot about now. It's scaling. What does that look like?

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Whether you've done B2B, B2C, B2B2C, it's actually quite similar. Mm. And if you follow that framework, you can really do anything. Um, and the way I, I built my first US venture after those 26 companies, um, we merged

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all of what I had learned, uh, with the CEO, and it was really incredible, where we were doing an e-com basic D2C brand, but we were based in New York, selling in Europe- Mm...

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as an MVP, and we were basically scrap- scraping Instagram's videos before anyone could do it. Wow. And we were doing it manually to be under the radar. [laughs] We didn't have an API by any means.

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Um, and, uh- If they even existed back then. [laughs] That's right. And we, and we basically, like we launched a product in two and a half months with two people. Mm. Um,

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and we just made, like, something ridic- I think it was 8 million in 10 months- Mm... and we made 34 million in revenue year two- Wow... with 32 people.

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And so if you know how to scale and you're efficient about it, you can make a lot of money. Um,

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a lot of what I see, and I, I support a lot of founders, and, and I always, you know, try to guide them on what scaling looks like and, and how to do it efficiently, um, just because a lot of the founders are more product focus, more technical.

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They're not always about the how, which is- Mm-hmm... operational piece of scaling. Yeah. And that happened to be my sweet spot, so. And what is that, uh, what's that sweet spot or that...

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You said if you know the playbook. What's the playbook? Tell us. [laughs] The playbook. [laughs] Uh, well, it's not a... Yeah, we won't have enough time- [laughs]... per se, but I'll walk you through the five pillars.

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Okay. Okay? Yeah. Um, so the five pillars of s- of scaling. I'm actually gonna ask you, what do you think they are? Oh, gosh. Um- [laughs] I'll guide you. I'll guide you. Hmm. What is this, Tango?

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[laughs] Uh, there's five as opposed to four songs. Um, okay. So, hmm. Let's start with the money, right? Yeah. Revenue. Yeah, revenue. So revenue operations- Yeah... because scaling is about how you do things.

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It's not about the thing, right? Mm. So revenue operations, your CRM, your tech stack, how are you gonna get those lists and those first customers, whether it's B2B- Yeah...

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B2C, what channels are you gonna use, how are you gonna operationalize all of that, right? So that's the easiest one, revenue. Revenue, yeah. Right? People. That's right. HR ops- Yeah... talent acquisition.

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Um, you need to scale your team. That's actually the first thing I did when, uh, I was building Pomelo. I hired two people. That was my first assignment. I had 10 days to find two people before we launched the thing.

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Um, and so what are your tech stack? What's your process of hiring the right people? But before you even do that, you need to think about your culture, right? Mm.

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Because you're gonna hire based on your culture, and so that's where you're gonna infuse those pieces into your questionnaires, uh- Yeah...

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for the interviews, what types of profiles you're gonna recruit for what jobs, et cetera, right?

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And the career path and designing all of that is really key in order to attract the people, 'cause at the end of the day, you only scale with people. Mm.

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Especially early, they say, uh, "Hire fast, fire fast," but also, like, if you have had- Can't hire fast... a poor hire- [laughs]...

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that's gonna be really, really, like, detrimental early, so you have to be very careful with that. So there's intention around that. What's the third one? Okay. Um, I'm thinking around, like, product and distribution.

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So no, that goes into the revenue ops. Okay. Yep. 'Cause it's not about the, the product. It's about- Mm... the how you do the thing. So think about what we're doing. Communication. That's right. Yeah.

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[laughs] Communication, PR- Yeah... all of that. That's something that people and founders really hate- Mm... or they don't do or think of, or even companies. Like, large-scale public companies- Yeah...

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won't always invest, uh, in that space, when in fact it's quite important to get the message out there for lots of different reasons. So let's da, let's say early stage, right? Yeah.

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How are you gonna fundraise if you don't have that network, right? You need to kind of- Mm... get yourself out there. You need to show credibility. You need to talk about what you're doing.

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Um-That's usually more the case when you don't have the network. If you have the network, it's easy phone calls and that's that, right?

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Um, that's why a lot of the Silicon Valley guys, they get to, to fundraise a lot of money because they have that network, but not everybody does.

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Um, if you think about more public companies, right, um, or, or global companies generally, you have to be communicating constantly, whether it's internally, but also externally on, you know, y- your brand, who you wanna attract, um,

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just investors in general- Yeah... investor relations. Yeah. And, and that goes hand-in-hand very closely, whether you're public or not. Um, you know, I work for a fund, as you know, so, so that was a big deal.

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And just being, being that voice in the ecosystem in order to attract the right stakeholders.

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'Cause at the end of the day, it doesn't matter what company you, you are, you're gonna have to work with the outside world- Yeah... and attract those different stakeholders. So that's the third one.

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[laughs] We could go- I, I saw the look and I was like, "Ah, it's up to me now." [laughs] We, we, we can go in-depth in every single one- Yeah... but I'm trying to keep it- Yeah, just, yeah... short and sweet.

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And, uh, the fourth one is, is- Mm... they all say it starts from... The heart? Within, which is the heart. I agree with you. But that means that in order to scale, you need to have a, mm-mm mindset.

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Uh, growth mindset. That's right. Got it. So the growth mindset is not a given. Mm. There's a lot of limitations, uh, due to fear, trauma, all that good stuff that people come with. I'm getting my like...

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I'm going back to business school here. This is great. [laughs] So- Listeners, thanks for listening and, uh [laughs]... coming along for this ride. They're like, "David, come on. Just say it. You should know this."

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[laughs] No, no. I, the... People don't think about it, and that's why I developed this sweet spot- Mm. Yeah... is that those are things that I see and that I do- Yeah... and support people on.

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And the growth mindset is really, um, the two things, right? Either the founders that you speak with or the CEOs, et cetera, they have that so much that their teams are completely lost, right?

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And so they need to get their teams to catch up. Yeah. You see that with Fortune 500 all the time.

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You have executive coach, coaches, sorry, that are hired to coach executive groups to work together better, but also to develop that growth mindset, right?

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Um, in smaller companies, you, especially the sweet spot of series A, series B, you start hiring people that have that niche focus as opposed to being the jack of all trades, that you hire those heroes, right?

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Early, early in the first 20, 50 employees. So, um, you have to nurture that growth mindset at all times because that's your creativity. Mm. That's your inner creativity within- Yeah. Love...

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the, the, the company, your teams. That's the intrinsic motivation, um, that keeps employees engaged, et cetera. And so that's something that's actually hard to do.

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A lot of companies, Etsy, for instance, they were speaking about it in a recent event I s- um, I was at, where, um, they were very intentional about their employee engagement and how they were doing it and things like that.

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So um, yeah, it- it's really a conversation, uh, that I hear all the time with internal communications teams, um, HR teams, et cetera. And the, the growth mindset is really something that is so important to nurture.

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It's not something that you just kind of hire and then it dies out. Yeah.

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Like, you really have to foster that, and that's why in that growth mindset, there's one piece that I really care about is the culture of feedback, the feedback loop. Mm.

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And how are you intentional about that, and what are the processes around that? Um, so it's not just winged, right?

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Um, to create that safe space because then it's that psychological safety, et cetera, that really keeps the talent engaged again, but, but also fosters that growth mindset and the ability to make mistakes and grow and learn from those mistakes.

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So anyway. Okay. I'll wrap that one up- Okay... because we can stay on that one for a long time. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So we're at four. And then the last one. Yeah, and then the last one.

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[sighs] Okay, so we've got revenue ops, HR, communication slash PR, growth mindset, and then... Show me the money. Mm. Finance. That's right. Access to capital. Yeah.

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So if you're a large company, you're an executive within a large company, you're negotiating budget. Actually, that's the season right now.

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Um, if you're a small company, you're trying to figure out how you're gonna fund your first employee, your MVP, et cetera, right?

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So it's always the fundraising, and everybody thinks about VC, but nobody thinks about angel money or grants or the other avenues. Yeah.

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There are other companies like Capchase, for instance, or others that do, um, structured debt, uh, for instance, specialize in that. So the, so there are lots of different avenues, um, that companies can think of.

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Um, but also, as I said, in large companies, it's a lot of, uh, politics and, and, you know, having those negotiations internally to, to get that budget, uh, especially if the companies are tight, and the economy has been tight recently.

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Yeah. Right? Um, so access to capital is key to be able to scale. 007. Oh, God. [laughs] You're really bringing up all the stuff. Um, so 007. Uh, oh, God.

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I'm gonna, I'm, I'm gonna say it, and hopefully it doesn't have any ripple effects. Um, so I used to work for Techstars, as you know. Mm-hmm. And our boss, Mayel, used to sign her emails M.

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And if you've ever written to her, and she's very accessible, you would see it.

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Um, and for whatever reason, the chief of staff role that I happened to have then, um, just really gave me a lot of freedom, and she empowered me a lot in what I was doing, which was supporting her and her goals, and also, you know, we were recruiting her executive team.

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Mm-hmmI was doing a lot a- as a generalist and that's what I love about the chief of staff role is that it is a generalist, but you do have the license to kill [laughs]

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Meaning you have access to everything especially the chief of staff to the CEO and you know, the chief of staff role is a bit of the super spy role but also the confidant and you know, you're alone. You're, you're- Mm...

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you're very l- lone, uh, in the company and so I don't know, the, the fact that she was signing M- [laughs]... and that my IT team at Techstars became Q, and so I became 007.

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[laughs] And, ah, having the British accent, there's a lot of different dots that got connected and, um, it resonated with a lot of people.

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Ah, and so my last announcement at, at Kyndryl was on the 007 theme, ah, which got a lot of love. So- [laughs]...

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I guess, ah, and I, I actually created a Teams group within the Kyndryl team and with all the chief of staffs and it is called the 007s. [laughs] And

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I think it was April, um, you spoke at our chief of staff brain trust. Oh, wow. Um- That was April this year. Yeah, yeah. It feels like last year somehow. [laughs] So much happened since. And, um,

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I think you shared there a little bit more about how you, um, think about the chief of staff role- Mm-hmm...

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and how you really foster community and you talked a little bit about it here and how you, you know, building relationships and, um, I would love to hear a little bit more about how, like, if we're working at a fast-paced larger company or just, like, how to think about, like, stepping into the chief of staff role and how to, like,

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fully take advantage of it and you know, how you've thought about, like, doing the best that you can in the role. Oh, yeah. That's a lot.

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So I recently onboarded, as you know, ah, as a chief of staff to a very large company, um, a bit different to my previous chief of staff role. Ah, however, the process and my playbook to it was fairly similar. Mm.

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Um, in that I had to build trust equity as quickly as possible. Tango. [laughs] It takes you to tango- [laughs]... and trust definitely is that. So, so I, ah, was starting to schedule, ah, one-on-one intro calls

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and so it really depends on the culture as well, right? Mm. What does chief of staff look like? W- what is in fact your license to kill and what that looks like? Do you have the license to kill? Are you 006, right? Mm.

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Um, so, so defining that with your principal and who you're attached to, ah, and really showing that you're supportive and not threatening- Mm...

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to the executive team or the, the team that reports to you, to your, um, to your principal is really key. That's, like, the number one thing, right?

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Because, you know, you're this, "Who's this young person that just walked in and has literally access to everything and has that privileged relationship with the principal," which is basically what all the executives are trying to establish, right?

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Yeah. Um, and so, you know, doing that well is hard, um, because you're working with executives, they're all type As, they all have egos, which is a known thing. Um, and really coming in in the most supportive, um,

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you know, attitude and way is key to success and then really building that relationship with that close circle, ah, as a priority and then the wider circle in and you start stakeholder mapping. Mm.

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Um, so you start growing outside of your immediate team, um, which is what I did in my l- um, recent role, so Kyndryl. Um, so I started immediately talking to the comms teams- Mm...

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and just because I was an experienced chief of staff, so um, you know, comms, IT, ah- So do you think about the scaling playbook here and you're kind of like, "Where, where, where's- Yeah...

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where's the, where's the juice or where's the opportunity and, like, where can I make the impact," knowing that the company's probably thinking of scaling and it's like, okay, where, where do I...?

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So in both instances, the, I was coming in at influx point. Mm. So a lot of the, the people that hire me are because I've done this before and I've scaled before. Um, and the fear of doing that is

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more excitement rather than fear, and that's a specific skill set actually. Um, so, so both of them were getting ready to, to, to really scale, and yes, th- those pillars work for you- [laughs]...

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as a chief of staff, but it works for you for anything. Mm. What- whatever job you're doing, you're gonna need access to capital, so your- the CFO needs to be your best friend, right? Mm.

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You need to scale process, which means that the- your IT team/CIOs, CISO, all those people really need to support you and they need to understand that they're in fact, or you're in fact their client, so they need to really support you in doing that.

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Um, and then, ah, communications, that's super important because as a chief of staff generally... So it depends, right? You have chief of staffs that focus on internal, chief of staffs that only focus on external.

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I've always done both. Mm. Um, so and both is not always sustainable. So the chief of staff role- [laughs]... is, is, is tough.

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Um, it is a 24/7 gig and, ah, you better really, really love what you're doing and the team that you're working for, ah, in order to do it.

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But, um, it's really about activating those people that are gonna support you to in fact support your principal because at the end of the day, your number one client is your principal. Mm.

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And so you're that scaffolding around them, ah, and you're supporting them in the things that they don't have time to do or, or just-Don't always have the skill set either, right?

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Um, and then you're, y- you're a bit that plugin PM as well, program manager, uh, when things go south or there's, you know, somebody leaves the company unexpectedly, or you need to someone...

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let someone go, um, a- and things like that. So at Techstars I was the head of PMO on top of being the chief of staff. Um, so I had two people report to me then.

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Um, best practice is in fact not to have the chief of staff be the PMO- Mm... um, because of capacity actually.

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Um, but, you know, the skill set of a chief of staff is in fact a program manager for lots of different programs. Um, and it's mostly mapped out to the work streams of your principal, right?

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So it's a similar skill set, and that's why a lot of chief of staffs will in fact then go into a strategy and ops role- Mm...

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a transformational role, um, consulting sometimes, and they will move around those different titles. Um, those are most generally, um... the roles are generalists, uh, in companies.

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And so there are a lot of generalists out there. Um, there's a book called Rainforest Minds- Mm...

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that addresses generalists that I really like, because you always feel guilty not to know what your superpower, your X factor is when you're a generalist. And in fact, that is your superpower.

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[laughs] And, and just nobody tells you, and the society makes you feel bad that you don't have that- Mm... super niche, you know, thing that you happen to be an expert in.

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And so yeah, it, it's a different mindset, but it's a different channel and, and your mind is just constructed differently.

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And so when they say connecting dots, that's literally all you do all day as a chief of staff, but as a generalist, you're really good at it.

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Um, and those are the roles in the companies that I've seen that have those titles, um, to, to either get out of a chief of staff role or you're in those roles and you wanna get into a chief of staff and elevate yourself to the executive team and have access.

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Um, so it really depends on how early you are in your journey and your career, what you wanna do, what your goals are, uh, and what industries, right?

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I'm, I'm mostly specialized in tech, um, and so, you know, you have the chief of staff role in politics, et cetera- Yeah... which is a bit different. You need to be a lot more senior. You need to have that network.

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You're very externally focused, right? Mm. Whereas a lot of companies unfortunately call roles chief of staffs when they're not chief of staffs.

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They're more business analysts, uh, operators, so they're very good at getting things done, right?

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But they don't have that network that can really support the CEO or the executive team in fundraising, in whatever it could be, right?

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Like bringing in journalists and, and having those conversations to support that branding or, um, the stakeholders, et cetera. So, um, chief of staffs have networks and, uh, and yeah.

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Uh, we could go on and on about defining the role of chief of staff 'cause there's been a lot out there, and, uh- Mm... it's been interesting to see as well.

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Is, is that a hot topic for you, or is that- Not for me, per se, 'cause the way I chief of staff is the way I chief of staff. Um [laughs] But, um,

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but, you know, you have startups that hire people that have worked only two years, and they're chief of staffs, and they're not chief of staffs. They're, they're people that are learning how to work, and, and- Mm...

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the super junior and the really good, really smart, very ambitious, high tolerance for pain. Um, but, you know, they're, they're more like PMs or, as I said, business analysts- Yeah... operators, et cetera.

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But chief of staffs are people that need to manage through influence. Um, that's a very hard thing to do no matter how senior you are, by the way. Mm. Um, so it's all dotted lines. Uh, you do sometimes have a team.

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You have an, uh, uh, associate chief of staff, et cetera. I have luxury companies that I've seen that, uh, happen and, and it's, it's just very different.

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A chief of staff is someone that manages a team, um, whether it's directly or indirectly, and has a network that they can pull in and, you know... You, sometimes you see it in, in TVs or, or movies- Yeah...

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TV shows, sorry, where you're able to make a call and in 30 seconds you get what you need just because you happen to know that person and have that established trust equity. Um, and that's what a chief of staff is.

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You, you mentioned earlier also related to these, um... And I think that's kind of what you were talking about there too, about the, the best practices.

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You said it's best practice for the chief of staff to not also, uh, be p- head of PMO? Yeah. So, um, how do I say this? For the chief of staff, you're really focused on your principal. Mm-hmm.

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And if you're head of PMO and you're managing a cross-functional program- Yeah... you're not in fact focused on them because you're managing something that's a bit more tactical.

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Um, and that's why I was head of PMO, but I had two people reporting to me. So it was a bit different, uh, in that leadership, let's say, set up. Um, but it did distract me from my job. Mm.

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Like, if I had more time to go out there and, you know, network even for the company, I would have had more impact. Um,

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so it's really that balance when you're internally focused, externally focused, is what are the priorities that matters more? And you want to...

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Y- In a company, you want focus, and you want somebody to wake up and think about a specific thing and just focus on that in order to get it done.

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If you have people that wake up and think about five different things, you can, you can be sure- [laughs]... that three things out of those five are not done, like, 100%. Yeah. And so, you know, it,

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it's kind of good because people get that, uh, exposure and that skill set and learning experience.

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I think if I had to do it again, I would rather have a PMO that I'm working with because I was managing so much that was externally focused, for instance.

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You, um-Host events at Chief through, for the chiefs of staff there. That's right. You obviously, um, um, know a lot of other chiefs of staff as well.

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Um, is there anything else that you'd really wanna share to them, or any other, like, common challenges or pitfalls that you see that you continue to see yourself saying the same thing to certain people?

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Um, so I run a monthly programming for the chiefs, um, all women, right, exec and, and, uh... Well, VP and exec level. Um, I think it's a group of about 80 people right now, um, chiefs.

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I think they're 10,000 members.

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Um, they're all Fortune 1000 chief of staffs, Ivy League schools or universities, um, NGOs, prominent NGOs, and so it's been great exposure to me to understand what the chief of staff looks like in all those- Cool.

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Yeah... stakeholders and, and companies. Um, but we all talk about the same thing. A- and that's what's great, is that there is that unilateral way of chief of staffing, uh, at that level,

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and that's how I create programming. It's like, okay, these are the things I'm struggling with. If I'm struggling with it, everybody else must have- Mm... at some point.

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And so we were talking about upskilling employees a lot this year on AI. Um, I see a lot of companies that, you know, implement Copilot, for instance, and have no idea how to use it.

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[laughs] Um, and that's actually a service that Kyndryl has. It's supporting employees at legacy companies that are trying to upskill their employees. Um, there's, um, you know, budget management process.

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That's a goddamn nightmare for a chief of staff, right? [laughs] And so, um- [laughs]... how do you...

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what are best practices and how large companies do it that can support the smaller companies, and I have a few startups as well in the group, and it's been really great to have that dynamic because I get to learn on my own panels in a way.

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Mm. Um, but I also get to bring people, like we had people from OpenAI. We had, um, uh, the chief of staff to the former CEO and founder of Pinterest- Mm...

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uh, come talk about communications, and we have the current chief of staff to Ginni Rometty, who's the former chairman of IBM.

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Um, so, so learning from la crème de la crème in chief of staffs has been really great for me because I felt like I was a newbie on the block initially.

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Uh, and then I realized, oh, I, I kind of seem to know what I'm talking about a bit, um, and that's been really great validation too, frankly. [laughs] And building that group of peers up- Yeah...

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as I said, the chief of staff role is such a loner's role that it's nice to be in a team and build your own team of peers, and then you build your, your own advisory board, frankly.

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Um, and sometimes y- you're in a tricky spot because you have competing agendas and competing executives, and you're like, how do you untangle that and be a mediator, um, without getting yourself in trouble?

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And, and all of those nuances, 'cause it's such EQ-focused, um, dynamics in the chief of staff role that having, you know, a peer advisory and, like, obviously anonymized and all that stuff, but you still have those dynamics.

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Um, I just did a workshop actually on conflict- Mm...

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uh, and what that brings out of people and how to manage conflict, and I'm actually speaking with that person tomorrow to have him as a speaker on my, um, chief of staff Zoom.

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And so, you know, all those nuances, um, are really what I enjoy learning about the human behavior. Mm. Um, something else that comes into play, I happen to be the millennial that kind of shakes things up a little.

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[laughs] Um, which is a lot of fun because, you know, I was posting about this recently. Millennials are the therapy generation. We're the first ones.

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More than half of the millennials and Gen Z's have done or are in therapy. Hm. Meaning that they're trying to fix their thra- traumas and, like, rebalance themselves emotionally so they don't bring it to the workplace.

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That's not the reason they do it, but that's the butterfly effect of it. Um, and so we have also for the first time five generations in the workplace, which is crazy. Mm.

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And with very, very different tech penetration, and we have remote places, hybr- uh, hybrid workplaces- Yeah... in-person workplaces. And so

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how all the different generations deal with that is very interesting as a chief of staff because you touch all those... you, you touch all those generations.

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Um, and so you need to really be aware of that and adapt to it. So, like, for instance, boomers and, and Gen X, they love texting. [laughs] They are not the chat generation. Like, we grew up on MSN- Mm...

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and things like that, right? And so, uh, millennials are great with Slack, Discord- Yeah... Teams, not my favorite at all.

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Um, and then you have the Gen Z-ers, et cetera, the more all video, you know, voice messages, et cetera.

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So it's kinda really interesting to learn about all of that, navigate through all of that, and, um, support the mediation between conflict sometimes- Mm. Mm...

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and like, "Hey, pick up the phone and call this person," 'cause that's a favorite way of communicating, right?

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And as a chief of staff in those intro calls that we were talking about, um, I would write down, I would ask very intentionally, "Hey, what's your favorite mode of communicating?"

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Um, because then I'll know, and I'll have it in my cheat sheet whenever I need it, uh, and I text- A cheat sheet? Yeah, I have cheat sheets about everyone, birthdays, family trees, like, you name it. Favorite foods.

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That level seven in action. [laughs] Anything, like, a- anything that I just learn about somebody, I write it down because, you know, it's your first interaction, so you're not gonna remember everything.

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But it comes in handy because you get to connect with people when you show them that you care. Mm.

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And if you're intentional about that, then it builds that trust a lot faster, and then ultimately you can do business or even have conflict in a more productive way.Um, and you know, as a chief of staff, you're always, like, creating a bit of friction 'cause you are mediating between competing agendas and, or you're, you're, you're actually provoking change.

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Mm. And so if you're doing that, you have to do it in, um, in a safe environment for everyone involved. And in order to do that, you need to really care about the human that's in front of you, and that starts day one.

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Day one. I can imagine there's some chiefs of staff that are listening to this, and they're probably on day one of their podcast, I mean, their chief of staff journey, um, listening to this podcast.

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So that's pretty cool to think about. There's probably some people that, like, literally started a role or are about to start a role and, uh... That's exciting.

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I, I speak to the, those folks who are looking into the chief of staff role weekly, actually. Mm. A lot of people refer me to those thinking about the chief of staff role, and a lot of the times I say, "Don't do it." Mm.

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Um, in a provocative way, in a way, because I don't think they know how hard it is. And, uh, and so I kind of lay it all out there usually on those calls. Yeah.

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And, and, you know, if they choose to do it, then at least they know what they're walking into. I don't know that I knew what I walked into. [laughs] And I would have liked someone to actually tell me.

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Um, there's that, but also, um, you know, how much you ask for the pay. Mm. Because it's such a wide range.

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Like what do you ask and why do you ask for it, and what's the skill set that you bring to the table, and experience, and the network? Yeah. And what, how much is that worth, especially for women, right?

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I always coach a lot of the younger generations on, on that aspect in, in roles. Um, and also specifically on your first day, if this is your first day, please buy the book The First 90 Days.

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I just recently read it as I was onboarding- Mm... uh, at Kyndryl, and I wish I had read that thing like probably 10 years ago, frankly. Uh, and it is a classic. Uh, and I mean, if you- In a good way. Yeah, yeah.

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In a, in a good way. And there's a reason. [laughs] There's a reason, that's right.

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And it, you know, if books aren't your thing, just download the audiobook and, and listen to it as you're doing your daily work or something. But, um, it's definitely- After listening to this podcast episode.

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[laughs] That's right. That's right. Um, but I've learnt a lot out of that book. Mm.

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And, and, uh, you know, being attached to someone and a little bit losing your identity and living through someone and for someone and, and being that nurturing aspect to that very hardcore exec, um, is very rewarding and exciting and, um, you have that proximity that nobody else has.

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Um, but at the same time, it's extremely hard because you lose a little piece of you- Mm... when you enter the workplace or you log onto your laptop, and your ego stays at the door for sure.

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Like, that should be the case for any manager in the workplace, frankly, 'cause you're not there for you, you're there for the people that work for you. Yeah.

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Um, I don't know that every leader does that well, but especially as a chief of staff, you're there for them, you're not there for you.

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Um, and so thinking about that and really being intentional about it and writing on [laughs] it, it on a Post-It. [laughs] So because sometimes you see things that outrage you, right? Mm.

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Like, that provokes you, and you're like, "Ugh, that's not about me, it's about them. I need to care about them first," right? So, um, wellbeing is something that's not done well among the chief of staff group.

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I see that all the time. I see it within myself. Um, that's another thing to really be intentional about on your first day as a chief of staff is set your boundaries on- Mm...

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what's gonna support you in not burning out, because you will burn out. I would like to leave on a high note here. [laughs] Um, obviously, a high note would be ways for people to stay in touch with you.

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Um, but if there's any other thing that you wanna share now, Christelle, go for it, or we can leave it at that.

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[laughs] Um, I mean, you know, uh- So I post all the time on LinkedIn about different topics, uh, that I see in my role.

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Um, or, you know, I just encourage people to network, even if they are chief of staff, to really think about what are they gonna do next. Mm.

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Um, I have mentors that have been a chief of staff for 20 years, and that's incredible, but I really truly think that you need to live for yourself. Mm.

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Uh, especially our gen- younger generation's all about entrepreneurship and really tapping into- Yeah... that inner self and inner creativity.

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Um, so, so chief of staff is a great way of being exposed to a lot of things that you don't have exposure to.

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Um, but in that process, always keep thinking about what you wanna do next and how the role is serving you to keep that balance, right? Beautiful. We're still talking about Tango. Yeah. There we go.

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[laughs] All right, so find you on LinkedIn. Thank you so much, Christelle. Really appreciate it. Thanks, David, for having me.

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