Every day of my life I'm just on a field trip. I'm here in the Google Street View car. I've always wondered how hard it is to be a flight attendant.
In five minutes, I'm performing magic to a real audience who paid to be here. Just about a year ago, I set a goal to run the 2024 New York City Marathon. I have become obsessed with the blood industry.
I just wanna see the behind the scenes of everything and how it works, and it turns out other people like seeing that too. You're clearly somebody who takes initiative.
If you give me real access to something that I can cover journalistically, that would be exciting to me. You've been at Morning Brew for almost four years.
When you were negotiating for this contract, what were the non-negotiables? One of them was the amount of time that the contract was for. I am a little too flighty to talk about a three-year contract. It freaks me out.
If you were to go independent, what needs to happen? What do you need to put in place to make that work? I think the easiest crutch in the world to making really interesting social video is-
Welcome back to the Creator Spotlight podcast. My name is Francis Zierer, and today we're speaking with Macy Gilliam, creator of the Out There video series at Morning Brew.
She joined the company as a social editor about four years ago, became a video producer, and one year ago, as we record, switched from being an employee to being a creator on a contract, which even includes some revenue share.
So we are going to talk about that, but we will start with a breakdown of how she makes an episode of Out There. Enjoy.
The premise of your series, Out There, is that you spend some time learning how to do a job and tagging along with professionals in the field, and you make a short documentary about it, typically between 12 to 25 minutes long.
I would like to start by walking through the full production process for one of these, from ideation to publication, soup to nuts.
Um, you can pick a different one if you want, but I really liked the flight attendant training one as a specific example. Flight attendants was a fun one.
Um, okay, production on that, that one was an inbound opportunity- Hmm... where United reached out to me. They didn't offer me this. United reached out to me.
They offered me to come to an influencer event they were hosting in the city. I was the only person there who wasn't, like, a travel influencer.
[laughs] And they were just showing off the new menu in their first class cabins and, like, they had examples of the new seats in their cabins.
And everyone else in the room is like, "Come with me today to check out United's, like, latest and greatest in their Polaris whatever." And I'm like, "No hate to that. That's great content, but it's not what I do."
I used that to get in the room with the- Hmm... PR girl and explain to her, like, "Hey, if you give me real access to something that I can cover journalistically, that would be exciting to me." Mm-hmm.
But I was like, "There's nothing for me in this room." I mean, the- [laughs] Trying the first class menu was yummy. [laughs] Um- What, what was the, what was, uh, w- w- what were you eating? What was the bite?
There was wa- there was a potato chip with caviar, which is- Oh. [laughs]... just one of the most classic rich people snacks, I think. [laughs] Um- In the pantheon, for sure... they love that. Mm-hmm. They love that.
They can't get enough of that. So that one was, yeah, United reached out, offered me some access to something. I spun it into more access, which is generally how- Yeah... it goes when a brand offers me access.
But then from that point, to be clear, United has no control over what I'm doing, insight into what I'm doing. They give us no money. Mm-hmm. They're simply giving me access to their space.
Obviously, they do control what they show me. Yeah. Like, they're the ones leading us around the facility, planning, you know, what- But you're not sending them the edit later.
We're not [laughs] sending them the edit ever, which, yes, that's how it works.
From there, we've confirmed that I have access to their training facility because I've decided that that's the most interesting element of being a flight attendant is the- Mm-hmm...
training they go through because they have this huge training facility with all these... It's basically, like, flight attendant training is doing 100,000 simulated plane crashes- [laughs]...
in all sorts of ways, uh, which is really funny to watch unless you're afraid of plane crashes- [laughs]... which I'm not. Are you? Okay, good. No. And I wasn't before, and I'm not now.
If anything, I'm, like, super chill now. Yeah. And I'm like, "I should always sit in the exit row. I've opened that door before. I know how to open that." [laughs] "I've done it. I know how to inflate the raft."
I think I say this in the video, but, like, if I were to ever actually be in a plane crash it would be hilarious 'cause I'd be like, "You guys would never believe, I've done this before."
[laughs] It's, it's kinda like wh- when they're on a plane that, "Is anybody a doctor? Is anybody a, is anybody, has anybody done flight attendant training?"
And then you're standing up- Has anybody gone through flight attendant training from one single day?... before the 10 flight attendants. And I go- [laughs] Yes. [laughs] Okay, well, so, so one single day.
So, so you, you get the access, and then it's one day. It's like this video I think is about 17 minutes long, and this is- Yeah... almost all entirely from the, the training set. So this is- Yeah...
one day of filming, essentially. Generally, the videos are one day of filming with the guest or one day of filming on site wherever it is. Mm-hmm.
Uh, sometimes there are multiple guests and multiple days of filming that way, but generally it's one day of filming. Um, so we get to the United's, like, training center.
That was the craziest, um, amount of PR people that have ever been walking around with us as we were filming. That makes sense.
They had, I think, a crew of, like, 10 or 12 people that had been prepped for weeks on, like, what to show us, where to take us, uh, like, what we do.
Um, it was very-- And they were all, like, really excited, which was nice. Um, by the way, our crew is me and two people filming. So there's like four times as many, uh, handlers.
Way more handlers than us, which is always funny. I then send us a schedule ahead of time of where we're gonna be, how long we're gonna be in each space. We can go back and forth on...
I ask them to send me also, like, pictures and videos of the spaces- Hmm... that we'll be in ahead of us getting there. So you can prep shots and such. So we can prep shots.
I can figure out, "Oh no, that room looks way more interesting. I have no interest..."
Like, the CPR room is fun, but it's not as interesting at all as the fact that they have a full-size 737 in this warehouse on hydraulics that they can- Yeah...
shake around and fill the cabin with smoke, and I get to go down the slide.Like, obviously I wanna spend more time in the 737 room than the CPR room, so we can adjust- Or in the pool. Or in the pool.
[laughs] Um, the pool was actually freezing. But exactly, so we can work together on the schedule- Mm... then, um, my shooters come with us. I call it going JFK style when we have two shooters. [laughs] You know, this...
You- you've got a thing with JFK.
I know you have the TikTok where you went to the spot where he was shot, and it was one of your most popular TikToks, and some people in the audience or in your DMs were really kinda mad at you for making fun of- of JFK being shot.
It was funny. I was like, "Did you know him? It was a long time ago." [laughs] I mean- They were like, "He- he was a man with a family. What do you have? A Webby or two Webbys?"
[laughs] They did, they did know that I had two specifically. Are you reading this off, or is this just, like, seared in your mind? No, this is seared in my mind. [laughs] I have certain comments memorized.
Not all of them, but I have, I have enough of them memorized. Okay, so you... It's one day of shooting. You... This is, this is, like, one example of how you get into this. It's a day of shooting, and then, like- Yeah...
from, like... How lo- how much later are you publishing this? 'Cause I think you've published, like, a dozen of these. I might be... It might be one or two off- Yeah... on this year. We're trying to do eight this year.
Mm. So, like, two a quarter. But generally, our process is a lot of post because it's so much field shooting, and it's so much interview-based stuff.
I'm trying to get better about doing more expansive pre-interviews now- Mm... so I have a better understanding of what the story is, obviously, before we film it. I always have a general hunch.
It's why I'm making the video in the first place, that I have a hunch that the story is flight attendant training is super hard. There's way more that goes into it than you think.
But, you know, it's, it's hard to know these things before you've actually gone and done the interviews and, and done the filming. Yeah. So our process is very post heavy.
I would say generally, it's about three to four weeks after we finish all the shoots that the video comes out. You've been at Morning Brew for almost four years.
It was your second job out of college, I believe, and you joined- Yes... specifically as a social media editor, I think to work largely on the Twitter and Instagram accounts.
After about a year, you moved to video production. After about another year of that, you are a more senior video producer. And then one year ago about as we record, you switched to this creator contract doing @this.
We'll get to that in a second, but I'm curious how you moved up into having your own show. It's, it's like, it's a... I mean, from what I, from what [laughs]...
from talking to you in the past and watching your content, you're clearly somebody who takes initiative. I, I, I get the impression that you're somebody who will annoy people until you kind of make it happen, right?
Correct. In, in the, in the works, in the workspace, like managing up- That's exactly... right, is a more polite way to say that. That's exactly right.
[laughs] Um, so tell me, tell me, like, how you went from, okay, I do Twitter and Instagram to now I've got my own show. 'Cause I don't think you'd ever worked in video before. No.
So, um, my experience before Morning Brew was I went to school for business. I had internships in social media marketing- Mm... some of which I would take it upon myself.
I worked at a B2B SaaS company based in Montreal, and- Montreal... I was doing funny, hilarious videos for them that were marketing videos [laughs] for their software.
So this is the kind of way of like, like, oh, our Gen Z social person has to do the video. Like, that was kind of your entrée. Exactly. Mm-hmm.
Um, but yeah, it was, like, in a marketing perspective, like, not in this, like, media journalism landscape. But I was...
went to school for business, had internships in social media marketing, and was doing some stand-up at the time. Mm. Uh-huh.
And so I think that combination of funny business knowledge, social media knowledge kind of rounded out to be perfect. When I started at Morning Brew, I was running Twitter. I was doing memes- Mm-hmm...
on our Twitter, and I immediately joined. And Dan Toomey was doing the bulk of our video at the time. Mm-hmm. And I immediately told him, like, "I love what you're doing. I would love to move in that direction.
Anytime you need help with whatever, like, please let me know." So then I would be, like, holding the camera for Dan or a- Mm... acting in the background of one of his sketches or whatever else.
Uh, then I started writing some of my own scripts. They were awful. Um, but I tried. And then after about six months, Toomey spun off his show Good Work! Mm-hmm.
And so there was a spot open on the social video team for me to do video full time since I had been, like, working my way in that direction.
Morning Brew is also a place where we do a lot of internal shifting, and people can grow and change, which I think is really awesome. We have a show here that's a podcast called Per My Last Email. Mm. That is...
The two hosts of it, one of them is the chief of staff to our CEO, and another one, she does every job in the world, but some of her jobs are, like, merch and event planning. And these two people have a podcast now.
Like, we're very open to people growing and changing their jobs and, and trying new things. So I start working on the social video team. In that role, I'm doing a daily social video, basically. It's four a week.
I'm doing sketches, which basically for the first six months at least that I was doing the social video job- Mm... I was just doing my best Dan Toomey impression.
[laughs] I was like, "What has Toomey done before that worked in video?" Can you do the voice, the Toomey voice? [laughs] I can, but he doesn't like it.
[laughs] Um, we do so many impressions of each other around this office. This office is a sickening place to work. Mm-hmm.
The amount of people here who do improv and stand up and can do really good impressions of your other coworkers is heartbreaking. Wait, wait, wait, really?
So as an aside here, um, I, when I had Rachel Karten on the pod in 2024, I know you've been interviewed in her newsletter Link in Bio too. If anyone is listening and is not subscribed to Link in Bio, great newsletter.
Must read- Highly recommend... if you work in social at all.
But I asked her, like, um, if she, if there was, like, one common thread that she'd seen among the people who are best at social media content, and she said that they're all...
they all have some background in improv comedy, and you're talking about this. Yeah. I know that Morning Brew has specifically paid for you, and presumably some of your colleagues as well, to take improv classes as well.
So- Yeah... I think you said a second ago that you had messed around with that a little bit before joining Morning Brew.
But tell me about, like-I mean, I, I guess not just you, but the degree to which Morning Brew encourages people to do this, and then what you've learned from that and taken into your job. Yeah, absolutely.
Morning Brew is super supportive of that. Like, company-wide we have a, a reimbursement for any class you wanna take that's, like, not related to your job- Yeah... where they'll pay for like 50% of it or something- Oh...
I think to a certain amount a year, which is nice. But when it's a skill that's related to your job, which with my job that's... I actually did sketch comedy at UCB, but yeah, I've been thinking about doing improv maybe.
Okay. Um, Morning Brew paid for the whole class, and so I did two rounds of sketch writing classes at UCB. It was super helpful in breaking my Dan Toomey impression.
[laughs] That that was the only way I knew how to write a sketch was- Yeah...
was mimicking what Dan had done, what had been successful on the channel before, which I don't think was bad, but I was like, it's not exactly the style I would like to do.
I would like to learn how to do other things as well. They don't need clones. Exactly. Mm-hmm. Um, but it, it was certainly a good way to get started and, like, warm up on the channel. Um- Mm-hmm...
and I appreciate Dan for letting me steal all of his jokes for, for that time. What was the... Wait, really, really quick. What was the first video that you made? Um, I'm assuming it's pre-Out There.
I know you have the other series. Yes. How Is This Store, How Is This Place Still Open. What was the first video you made that was like, "This is a Macy video"? Um,
I do think it was the How Are You Still in Business videos. Those were like... So after I, like, got a feel for sketches, I was like, "Okay, this is fine." But then I was like, there are so many great places.
It happened naturally. I lived in Bushwick by this place that sells pigeons. My roommate came home one day and she goes, "I just bought cat food from the craziest store."
And then at the same time, one of my friends had just taken me to KC Rubber Stamps for the first time in the East Village.
Seeing both of those stores in the same week, I was like, how the hell do those places stay in business? These are crazy businesses. I was also, like, pretty fresh to New York. Yeah.
This was also really soon after I switched to the social video team. This was within two or three months after I started making video full-time that I filmed the first one of those.
Um, so I w- I found that really quickly, and I found that I like that really quickly. I think the easiest crutch in the world to making really interesting social video- Mm...
is to go interview someone in their space and walk around their space with them. I do a lot of research ahead of those interviews, but I don't do a lot of writing of questions- Yeah... which I do with other interviews.
Because with those, you're walking around their space. The things that you're seeing are prompting your questions- Yeah... because it's such, like, a rich space that says so much about this person.
Generally, the people who run these shops are, like, uh, just, they're just passion projects. They have no real, uh, financial success. [laughs] This is so...
I mean, I think part of what makes you good at this is you clearly are somebody... I mean, and this is related to the comedy of it all as well. You're clearly somebody who has, like,
like, a, there's a short distance between, like, thought and just saying it out loud in, in- Yes... this curiosity way, right? Like, I always say with me and, and this, this style of interviewing I do here, like,
I, I think when I was interviewing for this job, this is...
I, I said this in the interview, like, I'm somebody who at a party, the other person is gonna leave the conversation first because I don't know how to leave, and I'm gonna keep asking questions. Yeah.
And I don't know how to stop asking questions. Yeah. And you've got your own version of that. Absolutely. Well, I'm just so nosy. [laughs] I go, "What's going on in that store?" Precisely.
[laughs] "What's going on in there? Who works there? What's that like?" Mm-hmm. I go, "Let me, let me in the back of your store."
And then now with the, with the YouTube series, Trying Jobs, I'm like, "What is that job like?" Every day of my life, I'm just on a field trip. Yeah. Yeah. I also describe it as growing up I was in Girl Scouts. Mm.
And with Girl Scouts, every other week you have your Girl Scout meeting, and it's basically a field trip. You go see how the firehouse works. You go see the behind the counter at Krispy Kreme Donuts.
You see how the donuts are made. That's what I'm still doing. Yeah. Like, I just wanna see the behind the scenes of everything and how it works, and it turns out other people like seeing that too.
If you had to do one of the jobs that you've done for Out There for the next five years, not for content, but, like, uh, you just had to do that for a living, which one would you do? That's a really good question.
God, I pick awful jobs. I would do the, the Google Street View car. Mm. If I could drive the- Yeah... Google Street View car, that would be awesome. Because that's the most, like, context switchy job of all of them.
I think it is, yeah. Yeah. I think it would be the least boring over time. And also, a lot of them, I pick very, like, manual labor jobs. Oh, or maybe I would do magician.
[laughs] Magician was fun, but it was really difficult. Mm. Like, I... My mic caught it, and I think it made it into the episode, 'cause I forgot that my, like, you know, over the, you know, mic- You were hot mic'd.
Mm-hmm... Yes. I was, like, stepping out onto stage before my magic show at Caveat, and I go, "Jesus Christ." But my mic was already on.
[laughs] But I really was so terrified because in my head with the magic show, I was like, I practiced for like a month, and I had my friend who's a full-time professional magician, Jacob Greenwald- Yeah...
fantastic, highly recommend. Jacob had coached me up for like a month. I really had practiced. I was pretty ready. But in my head, I think I was still like, "But it's basically stand-up." It's not basically stand-up.
Stand-up will help get you a lot of the way there, but with magic, there is a definitive did you get the trick right or not? Yeah.
Whereas with stand-up, you can, you know, do whatever and maybe some people didn't like the joke, but, like, it's a gray area. You keep it rolling. Mm-hmm. With magic, you either got the trick right or you didn't.
Um, so that one was tough, but I, I... That one could kee-keep me entertained for five years because there's so much to learn. Yeah. Uh, let's talk about your employment status. So- Yes...
part of why I wanted to talk to you for this in the first place was that one year ago, um, maybe one, one month short of a year ago as we speak, you went from being an employee at Morning Brew to being creator talent.
Um, and there's a bunch of details, but first, is this something you pushed for, or did Morning Brew start this?Um, it was kind of both.
I think it was, like, the understood career progression following in the line of the, the Dan Toomey career progression. Hmm. Is he on one of these? He's on... Yeah, he's on a creator contract as well. Okay, yeah. Um, so
I started on the video team, and then it was clear that, like, I have no interest, though I am very nosy and opinionated, no interest in moving into, like, management. Um,
so it was clear that the progression is, okay, then, what is the progression? Give me my own show. Mm-hmm.
Um, so our chief content officer, he's our president now, but chief content officer is more explanatory of what he does. Devin Emery- Mm-hmm...
is fantastic and very much understands, uh, creators and the current creator landscape, and, like, if you want to keep creators around, uh, how to do that, how to reward them, how to build them up.
Um, so Devin, I think, initially brought it up and was like, "By the way, this is the career progression I see for you. Do you see this as well?" Mm-hmm.
And about a year before we started building Out There, he was like, "I love..." I think I had made a YouTube video or two at the time that were already in the style of Out There.
We just weren't calling it its own show yet. Yeah. But it was the DoorDash one, and I think the hot dog one was also- Oh, yeah... in that time. And those ones did really well.
Right now, the DoorDash one, I was watching it this morning, has a million views on YouTube. Yeah. Um, so those, I think I just immediately realized that, like, that is the style that I liked.
Um, and so over about a year, I do think Devin started the conversation, and then over about a year, we talked about, okay, is this, like, the direction we're leaning in?
Is this enough of a unique style of content that we could call it a show? Mm-hmm. And then also, we started the, like, contract negotiations of what does that look like, what am I looking to get out of it in that time.
Yeah. What were the, like... W- so when you were negotiating for this contract, I know you'd signed with UTA, right? Yes. Talent agency.
Um, was that specifically to negotiate this contract, or was that already something you, you'd been doing separately? That was specifically to negotiate this contract.
However, it did not end up being helpful to the contract, and I would very much caution other creators to think very critically about what they are looking to get out of signing with any representation, who they are signing with as representation, but, like, the company as well as the people within the company.
There could be a great agent at a very small agency, or there could be agents at a very large agency that are not right for you. Hmm.
I think that there is a lot in the representation space that they have not caught up to the way that things work. Also, when I talk to my friends, even friends who love their representation,
I go, "Yeah, but are all your ad deals inbound?" And they go, "Yeah." And I go, "So what are the agents doing?" You know, I've heard this- I think-... from other people, yeah.
I think it's something that you have to think about because there are other things they can do for you, but if you are wanting them to bring in ad deals for you, that's not what I have heard that most of them are, are up to.
Um- Yeah... so I think that's tough. But yes, UTA, UTA did, um, start the negotiation of my contract. I ended up kind of, uh, edging them out by the end because I found it, uh, not to be super helpful. What were...
So when you were, when you were figuring out this contract, what were the non-negotiables where maybe, maybe there was some mistakes you'd seen peers made or peers had said, like, "You gotta get this.
This is the thing you gotta get right." Like, what were the, like, core non-negotiables for you? One of them was the amount of time that the contract was for. Hmm.
So it's a two-year contract term that I signed last April. Um, so I have a year on it left now. I just- I am a little too flighty to, to talk about a three-year contract. I'm like, "That sounds crazy."
Um, I don't like the sound of it. It freaks me out. Uh, so that- At that time, too, you'd, you'd been at Morning Brew for three years, so it'd be like- I'd been at Morning Brew for three years already...
I'm, I'm gonna do this all again. [laughs] So I'm like, "What? I'm gonna be here for the rest of my life, basically?" Hmm. Um, and I do like it here, but it's, it's different to be locked somewhere. Yeah.
Um, one that's interesting that I think is different than a lot of people, uh, the show doesn't have its own accounts, and that's by design. Mm-hmm. It is confusing for everyone, especially for advertisers.
[laughs] They go, "So it's a, it's a show. Where can we watch the show?" And we go, "Oh, on the Morning Brew account with everything else." And they go- Yeah... "Right." Um, it does have its own- Wait, wait, wait.
L- l- l- wait, let's stay on this for a second because I- Yeah... I, this is something I, I was quite c- curious about because Good Work, Dan's show, has- Yes... its own channel.
And so, like, I knew that th- this was a specific decision. Tell me more about why. I...
It's part of the, the thing about me not knowing how long I wanna be here, and the other part of it is, and part of why I don't wanna be here for maybe forever, is I don't love tying all my content back to business. Hmm.
I am making the most loosely associated business content [laughs] in the world.
Like, you can only call it business content from the perspective of I'm trying a job, and then I'm talking about the industry, but, like, it's not what I wanna do forever. So
I don't want to build out accounts that are for a show, that at the end of the term, Morning Brew is either gonna make me buy from them, or Morning Brew's- Hmm... gonna keep, and that's not valuable to them.
So what me and Devin really... Love Devin, he came up with this idea. What we came up with is
my show exists on the Morning Brew accounts with its own branding, but you can only find it there, so that we're not building up IP that neither of us want- Hmm... or can do anything with. Makes a lot of sense.
And in this time, we're building up my personal accounts, which of course are mine, and I can take with me, and I completely own.So in my videos, not only do I cross-post with the Morning Brew account on, you know, however I'm, however much I want.
Um, but, like, in my most recent short from the maps video, I have a direct promo to my personal channel YouTube video, which is...
And, like, that video, the maps video is I got to ride around Bosnia with this, uh, Street View driver for Ser- for Bosnia. And then on my personal channel, I have an extended cut of my interview with him- Mm-hmm...
that's like 12 minutes long.
In the Morning Brew video we only use, like, a minute of that just for time, but he had a lot of great stuff that just doesn't fit into the Morning Brew video, so I said, "Oh, I'll just post a longer version of, of it on my channel."
So Morning Brew, because of the way my contract is set up, is completely supportive of me doing that. This is, like, explicitly how the contract was written. So now my personal YouTube channel is growing.
I obviously take that with me when I leave, but also my videos are growing the Morning Brew YouTube channel rather than the Out There channel- Yeah... which none of us know how long I wanna be making that show. Yeah.
Uh, I, I wanna get back to the, um, the, the, your own channels in a little bit, but I wanna make sure we finish this contract- Yes... conversation first. What else...
Was there anything else, or is that kind of, does that kind of wrap up? We've got, we've got, um, the term, the, the length of the contract. We've got the, the channel set up, the IP relationship. What else is there?
I am salaried, but I also get a percentage cut of- Mm... the show's profit. Um,
I skewed more salary than percentage cut of the show's profit just out of personal preference and out of, I would just prefer to know what my income is- You like stability...
more than, more than relying on the ad sales, which also, and Devin and I talked about this, I have nothing to do with the ad sales on my show. That's not a, um, something that's within my...
That's not my job to sell the show. Mm-hmm. So if you're monetizing and, like, incentivizing me based on if the show sells ads, then do you know what I'm gonna spend my day doing? Trying to sell some ads on my show.
Yeah. Which I have no interest in doing and shouldn't spend my time doing. So instead I got some, uh, like, accelerators or whatever, incentives built into the contract- Yeah...
that are more performance based of videos, of like, I think it's, like, if five YouTube videos in a year hit a million views or whatever- Nice... then it's, like, on the second year of the contract, um,
then I would get a higher percentage cut of the ads, I think. We didn't hit that, but that's okay. A year ago when you switched to this contract model, the Published Press reported on it.
They reported that your contract nearly doubled your compensation from where it was when you were an employee. Is that, does that hold true? Is that sort of, like, performance based? How has it been a year in?
Like, are you- No, that's salary... happy with this model? Oh, wow. Yeah. Okay. Amazing. [laughs] Yeah. Um, no, I'm super happy with it. It's great.
And like I said, like, I love the stability of an income and knowing what my income is. Mm-hmm.
I am a little bit nervous to be more entrepreneurial and, like, go independent as a creator at some point, because I love knowing what my income is and that I can count on a certain amount. Um, it's really nice.
It's better. Yeah. [laughs] I agree.
Uh, so you're halfway through the contract, and I know you're on record as saying this, and as saying this to Morning Brew as well, that when the contract ends you probably want to leave, maybe go independent- Yeah...
like you were just saying. Um, the few scen- I mean, there's one scenario where you go and do that.
There's one scenario where maybe you just go to a different job, and probably a third scenario where you renew with Morning Brew. So let's walk through this. First, if you were to go independent and be a
independent creator when the contract ends in a year, what needs to happen? What do you need to put in place to make that work?
I need to grow my personal accounts so that they are more monetizable and there is, like, more consistent content going out on there that people are, like, looking to those accounts and know that that's
a, a place where I'm posting. Mm-hmm. I just posted my first long form YouTube video on my channel. That was the, the ex- the extra cut from the maps video.
Um, so I need to be posting more consistently, which is hard to do because, um, I already have a full-time job making, uh, YouTube content. So it's hard to then make bonus YouTube content outside of that.
The good news is it seems like people really loved the very underproduced, barely edited bonus footage that I posted on my account now. And so I do think that's something that's on the table.
It's not that I want to, like, not make great content, but I do have a limited amount of time. Yeah. Um- And, and it's leveraging what we've been talking about, which is, like, your...
one of your core skills as a presenter, as a host, is just asking people questions, and they keep answering them, and then you ask more, and they answer them and so on. Right.
Um, so yeah, I need to, I need to be posting more on my accounts. Um, I would like to get some ad deals going on my accounts, which I am allowed to do in my contract.
I can, in theory, advertise with certain advertisers. I cannot... I have to run all advertising on my personal accounts past Morning Brew, and there's a very good likelihood that they say no to some of them
because they don't want me selling competitive ads against the ads they're trying to sell on my stuff. Can- cannibalize. Yeah. Exactly.
But if there was an, uh, an advertiser that they deemed non-competitive, if it's a very small ad deal that's like obviously that brand is not, does not have Morning Brew advertising dollars, then that's something.
Or we've talked about if it was something where it's, like, small partnership on Macy's account to, like, build a relationship with that brand to then speak with them about, like, a larger Morning Brew advertisement.
Um, I would like to be doing a little bit of that just to have at least monetized my personal accounts a little bit before I-Count on it being my full income.
I think those are the main things that would need to happen before I could go independent. What about, like, a team?
You strike me as somebody who really relishes collaborating with people, um, and you know, we've already talked about how the business side isn't really a core compe- competency or even something that you particularly want to do.
Um, I think that even anybody who is like a solo creator typically has maybe one formal relationship, but certainly an informal network of people, like trading advice or like, you know, trading editing feedback on videos- Yeah...
et cetera. Um, if you were to do this independently, what would be like... What would you be prioritizing for the people around you, the support system?
Yeah, so many of my friends are independent content creators, which is part of what makes me feel like that's possible at all. Mm-hmm. Um,
I, yeah, I just have some really fantastic friends in New York who do the same thing and are a little bit ahead of me in their careers and are doing it independently in a way that's very encouraging.
I'm like, "Okay, if they can do it, um, I know these idiots. If they can manage this- [laughs]... I can too." This moron. Oh, okay.
[laughs] So what about, um- I would also hire someone to be a shooter/editor for me- Yeah...
which is a ca- i- which is a cost that I need to take into account before I, like, make sure I can do this, um, because I'm not a good editor, and I obviously can't film myself, especially with the kind of content I do.
Like, it doesn't work if I'm, like, vlogging this. Yeah. Like, I want them to feel like little docs. Yeah. I can't just selfie film this.
Speaking of the little docs, so you were recently on a panel at the Future of Nonfiction Video Conference. I was also there. I was facilitating a conversation. I was not on the main stage. [laughs] Let's make it clear.
You were on the main stage. Um, I actually didn't make it to your panel, uh, shamefully- No worries...
but it was called Beyond Silos: The Shared Future of Documentary Journalism and Content Creation, and I bring this up just because I'm curious how you define your work. You were... You're saying documentary.
Is it documentary? Is it journalism? Is it creator content? Do these labels matter to you? I think that it is a mix of all of those things, and it depends on who I'm talking to. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
When I'm talking to a, someone who I would s- consider like a capital J Journalist, I describe myself... Like, when I'm reaching out for potential interviews, I say I'm a video producer at Morning Brew. Mm.
If they are like a capital J Journalist. When I'm talking to a small store owner, I describe myself as a video journalist. Hmm.
When I'm trying to, like, explain to, like, this old man that runs a shop that sells one thing and this is all he's done for 60 years, I'm like, how can I explain to him what I do in a language he'll understand?
So I do think there are, like, a... It's a lot of crossover, and I do think it's evolving, but it is- Mm-hmm...
I really liked that panel, and I really like what Future of Nonfiction Video does because I do think they all have a shared future, and they're very similar, and there's so much more overlap between them than there has been before.
I think that- Yeah...
they're like a proving ground for new talent in the, like, journalism and documentary space, but I also think it's like a testing ground for people who are already journalists or documentarians to, like, make something that's a little more low effort or, like, faster- Hmm...
production turnaround time before they, you know, spend a year or so making a feature length doc about something. My favorite example is, um, do you know about Listers? Listers. I don't know.
The bird watching documentary? Oh, I, I, um, I do, but only... I haven't watched it. I listened to the episode that that guy did with Colin and Samir. That's all I know. Yep. Um, his name is Owen Reizer. He is a genius.
Um- Mm... he made this documentary and then just released it on YouTube. It's a two-hour documentary about bird watching. I think it is absolutely the future of where so many things are going.
Um, he just released it for free on YouTube. You should watch the documentary. Listen to the Colin and Samir episode about it.
But, um, before the documentary came out, he and his brother were on this road trip to make the documentary, and every single day for a year, they posted an Instagram Reel that's like- Hmm...
way under-produced, looks nothing like the documentary, is literally just, like, buddies hanging out, whatever. But it built up an audience, like a core audience, that like- Mm-hmm...
thousand true fans thing or whatever, where like those people knew that this documentary was coming, and they were the first ones there being like, "Wow, this is what we've been waiting on for a year." So I do think
social media can play very well into those spaces, can build up an audience and awareness for your documentary, um, and as Owen proved, can be the space where your documentary is posted. He just posted it on YouTube.
Mm-hmm. And he talks about in the Colin and Samir episode, he made more money from posting it on YouTube and posting, like, a Venmo link being like, "If you loved this- Donation base... send me money." Yeah. Yeah.
And he said he made more money from doing that than, like, major streamers offered him to put it- Mm... on their platforms. It was at least, like, $70,000. Uh- Yeah... it was pretty solid.
Um, I wanted to ask one last question about the contract before we move off of that, um, and I understand, too, if this is like, eh, I don't really wanna think about that yet. But let's say you end up renewing.
What would it take for you to renew with Morning Brew? If I renew with Morning Brew, it will be out of convenience and fear. [laughs] I do like it here. I like it here so much.
I'm, like, best friends with all my coworkers. Like, I come here every day, and I go, "Time to hang out with my friends." Yeah.
Um, I like it here a lot, but I do think I need to, like, push myself to do the next big thing, and I think I can't do that while I'm working here. And so I think I do need to, like, leave the comfort and convenience of
salary, same job, like, working with all my buddies here because I do... I would like my career to move more into, like, the documentary space. Like, I would love to make a feature length doc at some point.
Like, that is absolutely, you know, what I would like to be doing.I can't do that while I'm working here. So if I were to renew here, it would be
if I haven't grown my personal accounts to the degree that I feel comfortable with those being my source of income- Mm-hmm... or found some sort of, like, other maybe, like,
part-time thing or, like, collab thing where I would still have, like, some source of income, and then make videos independently as well.
Which also maybe there's a world in which I, I'd do something like that at Morning Brew. Um, but ideally I would like to push myself out of the nest in a year. Like so many pigeons before you.
Like so many pigeons before me, all sold from Pigeons on Broadway. [laughs] You know, I also lived right by there when I, when I first moved here. Um, but we don't need to get into that.
I had some weird, weird experiences. Halls of Jay- I, I-... life... yeah, Halls of Jay. I never, I never saw that store. I ate at... There's, like, He Cherokee Diner right next to it, I think. Yeah. I've eaten there.
But I never, I never noticed the pigeon place. So when I s- when I watched that video, I was like, "How did I..." I only lived over there for, like, um, six, seven months. Anyways, um, you as a public character, right?
Before I knew your name, before I knew who you were, I'd seen you on, like, Twitter, on TikTok, on Instagram. And I'd seen people specifically on Twitter referring to you as, like, the Morning Brew girl.
And I've seen this- [laughs]... elsewhere. I've... The Morning Brew chick. Like, it's, it's th- like, it's this identity you have or had that now as you've built your own show, you are maybe Macy Gilliam now, right?
But some people may maybe still know you as that. And I know that you have some level of discomfort with, like, becoming a public persona and being known.
Tell me a little bit about how you are squaring that with this necessity of becoming a public persona. Like, how are you walking that line? Yeah.
It's a strange thing to be out and drinking with your friends and someone goes, "I know you from your job." And you go, "Oh, right. Hello." And, and now I'm putting on my company voice and I go- Yeah...
"Thank you so much for saying hi. That's awesome." [laughs] "I have to go be drunk and silly now, but thank you." Mm-hmm. Um, it's a strange thing, but it is something where, like,
I'm like, "Okay, that's the goal of this though," right? Like, the goal is for the content to always get more popular. People are also always very nice, and like- Yeah... they love the stuff, which is great.
They're always saying, like, how much they love my stuff. It's a great thing- They're saying hi because they like you and what you do. Right. Yeah. Because they like what I make.
Um, it has shifted a little bit lately where it is normally they go, "Do you work at Morning Brew?" And I go, "Yeah."
I think part of it too, by the way, is that I think because I never change my hair, I think because- Mm-hmm... it's always just like this, I think it makes me so much more recognizable.
Because what I've learned is a lot of people, all they can see about me is my hair. I'll get tagged in videos where people go, "I thought this was Macy," and it's just- It's crazy...
a girl who has, like, vaguely the same haircut. [laughs] Looks nothing else like me. Um, but I think, I think that's part of what makes me so recognizable on the street. But- Mm-hmm...
um, it has shifted a little bit lately, uh, from the Morning Brew girl to sometimes Macy, to sometimes people are starting to recognize me for content on my personal accounts now.
I've been posting a lot about knitting and fiber arts and, uh, sometimes- Hey, it's the sheep to sweater girl... people are like... The sheep to sweater girl. They're like, "Oh my God, I love your sweater thing.
I love your knitting stuff." And I go, "Jeez." Mm-hmm. That's, that's huge. 'Cause the, the, the excitement of the, like, Morning Brew recognitions in the street are, like, that has worn off a long time ago. Mm-hmm.
But when someone is like, "I loved your sweater stuff," I'm like, "That's so exciting. Thank you for saying that." It's new to you. Well, so on your- Yeah...
YouTube too, which has 14.6 thousand subscribers as we record, like you said, you just very recently published your first, um, medium form, long form video on there.
Everything else, I think there's, like, 17 reels, and they are- Yeah... almost all, uh, your knitting content, right? Some of these have, like, one- I think one has, like, 17 million views. Might be- Yes...
a 10.7 and I missed and my eyes had 7 instead of a 1. No, it's 17. But yeah. That video went crazy. So I- It's a video of a- Go ahead...
woman at a, at the fiber arts festival that I was at, that I knew that video would go that viral, by the way. Mm-hmm. I have a sense for these things. Is this the she's, she's, um, making yarn- She's spinning yarn-...
off of a rabbit... straight off of her rabbit. You just, like, kind of, like, pick out the fur, like when your dog or cat is- Mm... like, shedding a lot.
These rabbits shed so much that you just kind of pick it out, and she spins it straight onto the wheel as yarn. It was crazy. PETA commented. PETA. It was a whole thing. What did, what did PETA have to say? PETA
vindicated me. Nothing was going wrong in that video. That video was... I'm right that that animal is not being hurt, and that's a completely normal and fine thing to do.
However, PETA is also right that that is not how most of those rabbits are cared for. And when you have a sweater that's made out of angora rabbit- Mm-hmm... generally in a store, those rabbits are being abused.
So generally you shouldn't buy angora and think that that's how they're being treated. But anyway. Mm-hmm.
Uh, so tell me more about developing your personal channels though, because I think on, I think on Instagram you have, like, 60. On TikTok too, let me pull it up, you have... It, it's quite a contrast. You have 20,000...
20.4 thousand followers there. 2.4 million likes though, and usually, like, it's rare for that number to be so skewed, that ratio. It's because that rabbit video is there too. Oh, that same video. Mm, okay.
[laughs] It's that same video. It's crazy. Well, okay. But, but tell me more about, like, how, how you plan to develop this over the next year. It's a necessity for you to grow these, these- Right...
all three of these channels, maybe just a couple of them, I don't know. Um- Yeah... but how are you thinking about it? Well, I'm not doing TikTok at all. TikTok, whatever. Maybe- Ouch... I'll post stuff on there.
I don't have it on my phone, but, like, I'm uninterested in it. I mean, politically, I don't want to support it. It's not a good place to be. Yeah. I haven't scrolled TikTok in months.
Um, so TikTok I'm kind of leaving out. I would like the center of my independent content creator business to be YouTube, because- Yeah... YouTube feels safe.
YouTube feels like a better proving ground path into-Like, like I said, like a feature length documentary- Yeah... type career. Um, so I like YouTube for that reason. I do want that to be the center of what I'm doing.
Over the next year I think my content on my personal accounts will be very wide-ranging. The stuff that I have planned right now, like obviously the first thing was- Testing... this like 12 minute... Yeah, exactly.
Testing, and like it's whatever I have time for in the moment- Mm... but to make sure I'm posting consistently, and also just seeing what I liked making, what the audience is responding to, in topic and style and length.
Um, I've been editing for quite some time now the YouTube length version of the entire sheep to sweater journey, which I also filmed.
I filmed the entire thing vertical and horizontal, and I had 12 hours of footage or more that I was combing through, and I think I've gotten it down to like an hour and a half or two hours. Mm.
I think the final length of the video will still be about an hour.
But it's the entire journey of me over four months, 90 hours of work, turning a, a raw sheep fleece that I shear at the beginning of the video into a sweater.
And so I think that that one will be very long, and it's one that I'm trying to take my time editing and make, like, a better production quality than others.
Some of it, I think, will be kind of like video essay type stuff, where it'll be, I think, easier to produce if I've kind of like written something and then have like fun footage that goes with that.
For example, in August my brother and I are going to see the eclipse in Spain. My brother has a goal to see an eclipse on every continent. Oh, wow. Um, so we're checking a few off- Has he been to Antarctica yet?...
this summer. No, that one will be in- Okay... 2038. Oh, [laughs] amazing. Yes. Um, he, hopefully he has enough money for a trip to Antarctica by then. [laughs] Mm-hmm. He'll figure it out.
Uh, so we're going to, uh, Spain to see the eclipse this summer.
I think I'll make a video about eclipses that's basically like a video essay on like the history of eclipses and what they have meant to civilization over the years, that's also tied in with this like- Mm...
fun footage of like me and my brother, who we're like incredibly close. Can he shoot? So I feel like that's... Uh, I can teach him enough. Okay. I'm also like super lo-fi.
Uh, my whole sheep to sweater thing was shot on my iPhone. Mm-hmm. I am team, team lo-fi production. Yeah. Yeah. Mm-hmm. Um, so yeah, I think the channels, I'll be experimenting with a lot of stuff on them.
But like the name of the game for me is just getting stuff out and trying stuff. I am also gonna be collab posting with the Morning Brew accounts- Mm... as often as it is relevant.
Obviously the content has to be something that's relevant for both of our accounts. But especially now that you can cross-post on YouTube, I've been cross-posting all my Shorts too. Okay.
And that's grown the, the accounts a lot. Yeah. Um, something that we spoke about when we first talked about doing this episode, um, I'm gonna paraphrase what you'd said.
I, I, I was asking you what you'd wanna talk about and asking you about the creator contract, and you expressed anger at people exploiting talented comedians, some of your friends, who might not be skilled in the business of social media.
And then- Yeah... companies work with them, maybe sign them to a contract that's exploitative. Um, I don't wanna paraphrase you too much here, but I'd love- [laughs]... you to speak on this. Yeah.
I think that there are so many, uh, brands creating short-form content now that are creating contracts that are like, like old school, like record deal- Mm...
levels of exploitative, where it's like the creator gets like maybe a small flat fee for participating, and then gets like a very small cut of ads, which also I don't think any of those places are
monetizing super well either on their short-form content. I mean, you don't see a lot of ads on a lot of those like short-form video only shows. Um, and I know from friends who have sent me contracts, like they're bad.
Like, I would caution all creators to like really look at that critically and decide if that's something that you're even interested in.
I think the pitch a lot of the time is, um, "Oh, well, we'll just handle all of the production, you know, you just have to drop in and be talent." But to what end? Because
depe- I mean, also IP is a question there of like, okay, you're building this account, who's getting what? You know, you run the show for e- eight weeks and then you don't continue it, w- then what do you do? Um,
but to think about do you need to work with a brand like that whose... I think a lot of them are very exploitative. Mm-hmm. Or can you build something on your own for like re- it's so easy to film something.
Have your friend hold an iPhone. Like, we're talking about the kind of shows that like film at the park or film on the sidewalk or film on the street, and it's like, how hard was that to film?
What is the production support that they're giving you? How hard was that to edit?
You know, maybe there are real benefits for some people, and maybe some people really do appreciate the idea of just dropping in somewhere, of, you know, the other shows on these networks, you know, maybe helping promote at the start.
But I caution all of my friends, especially the ones who have sent me the contracts they're getting, um, that like I have not seen one that I think is fair.
And I do think that they're just taking advantage of the fact that this is such a new space. It is the Wild West.
But I think what most people are looking for, creators, co- comedians who want to make like a serialized vertical video show, I think what most of them need is someone to film and edit. Yeah.
You can pay someone to film and edit, or have your friend film and you editAnd you can, and you can end up largely in the same place except for when an advertiser comes in, which again, these advertisers when they come in are inbound.
They see the show, and they wanna advertise on it. Then you get that money instead of, you know, you getting a very small percentage of it per your, you know, whatever contract. Um,
I think it's a super predatory thing in the, in the creator space right now that is so frustrating to watch.
[laughs] Uh, so on, on an optimistic angle on this, though, it sounds like the way Morning Brew does this is really... is thoughtful and considered, and like, yes, you...
You know, were negotiating for certain things, but it sounds like it came from a good place, and this is a business that knows that it serves them and their employees, their talent well to foster young talent,
educate young talent, build young talent up, and then those people are go- just naturally, such as you, maybe Dan at some point, are going to want to leave, and then they find the next person, and that's sort of the function of a company like this.
I- [sighs] Just, like, going back to that to contrast, like, what's r- like, what a good contract looks like. Yeah We were just talking about the exploitative version. Can you speak a little bit more on that?
Of like what do you... What are the s- what are, like, the green flags in [laughs] a situation like this? Absolutely. I think you need to know going into a contract what you can and can't do for yourself.
Um, so for example, I know that I can't film and edit. It's awesome that Morning Brew has hired a full-time person to film and edit my show. Mm-hmm. Um, he's really great. I also am the one who got to pick him out.
His name is Dylan Avellinoza, and he's fantastic. He actually just started. Um, I know that I don't have to pay Dylan out of my own money because he's here. It's great. Mm-hmm.
Um, so I know that I have that production support. I have a steady income, which is great.
It's also, like, a fair income where the, the types of contracts I was talking about before, um, they're, like, stipends for, like- Yeah...
an eight-week stint of a show where, like, I'm a salaried employee, like, on a two-year contract term.
Um, it's also very clear on, like, what my growth goals are, what would make us both want to continue the contract versus not. And it, and at Morning Brew, it's also a different model. It's like- Mm...
it's a broader media company where I think the most predatory contracts I've seen are coming out of companies that just do short-form vertical video. Um, where, like, Morning Brew is, like, a...
W- we're not traditional media- Yeah... but we have more of a- It's like a new institution at this point... of a newsroom. Yeah. We have a newsroom. We have other stuff going on.
We also have, like, a more diverse income as a company where, like, there's not this crazy pressure on video to, like, constantly perform and be viral hit or not. Yeah. It's like, no, we can, you know,
be, be good and grow, but, like, it's not make or break if our short-form vertical video is not bringing in all the money for the company. Yeah. Because I do think short-form vertical video is an incredibly fickle space.
Algorithms change. Platforms die. Like, that's why, like, moving to be an independent content creator, like, I do not want any of my income to be- Yeah... coming from Instagram Reels. God forbid. That is scary stuff.
But YouTube entirely. [laughs] Yeah. YouTube entirely. I mean, obviously I'm not gonna say no to Instagram deals, but, like, I would like to stay focused on YouTube. Yeah. Uh, one more thing I wanna leave with.
Back to that panel we spoke about, Beyond Silos: The Shared Future of Documentary Journalism and Content Creation. You were not the only talented person up on that stage.
I wanna know what you took away from that conversation. Absolutely. Um, yeah, there were so many interesting people there.
Um, Nicholas Bruckman, who makes some really fantastic feature-length documentaries, he's doing something really interesting in the doc space that I had not heard of, where a brand will fund a documentary, but they retain...
Like, he as a filmmaker retains complete editorial- Hmm... and journalistic integrity. The brand never sees it. So the example he gave was Oatly, I think. Mm-hmm.
One of the oat milk companies paid for him to make a documentary that's some way about milk. Yeah. And then he found this whole thing about how the Got Milk? campaign actually bankrupted
a million, like, American dairy farmers. Like, it was, like, the worst thing to happen to dairy farmers, the Got Milk? campaign, which seems crazy that the thing promoting dairy milk would have done that.
Um, so that was really interesting to learn that docs can even be funded that way. I had never heard of that. Uh, I believe the doc is called The Price of Milk. Hmm.
Um, Anthony Demieri was there, who is, of course, fantastic, um, does all of the... He runs Melted Solids, um, which did all of Zoron's campaign video.
Anthony and I first met because he also films Subway Takes, some episodes- Mm, mm... of Subway Takes, not all of them anymore. Um,
so we met, uh, while he was filming my Subway Take, and then now I, you know, see him around at these type of things. He's so amazing.
I mean, everything he does in this space I think is, is very smart, and he does a really great job specifically bridging the gaps between doc work and social and, like- Mm... how there's, like, not a line between them.
It's, in fact, very, very, very blurred. Um, and, like, also I think sometimes trying to find that line is, like, unproductive and just, like, not super even needed.
And then Shalini Sharma, who is fantastic as well and works at NBC Universal, um, she spoke a lot about, again, things I didn't know that they were up to over there, about, um, all the ways that they're trying to adapt to being online and the ways that they think about it.
I liked something she said about how sometimes they know that a story is, like, just devastating, and it's not- Yeah...
going to perform well on social because it's, like, too sad, or, like, the algorithms are gonna, like, nuke their reach because it's, like, a gruesome story or something. But she's like, "We are NBC.
Like, we have to cover... these stories anyway. Yeah.
And I think it's nice to hear from traditional media, and traditional media that we often think of as, like, not knowing how to post on social, is like, well, sometimes they're posting videos that bomb on social because they're like, "We're NBC, we, we have to tell this story anyway."
Yeah. This wa- so this reminds me, what you said too, like, both that and what you were saying about Anthony and his work, and how that line between doc and social is, is blurry and maybe irrelevant.
Something I think about very often in this work, um, told to me by our mutual friend and my former boss, Ariel Rubin, um, we were, you know, he and I were working together at this software company doing marketing, and he said, "Francis, like, we're not competing with other companies like ours.
We're competing with anything you can look at on your phone," right? Yeah. And that has really shaped how I think about this.
And, you know, I, I think I asked a question of, of you earlier about this panel about, like, how you identify your work and whether those labels matter.
And to me, I think of these things not as like, it, it's less about... The way to understand how, like, audience's relationships with content is less about where it's made and more about the site of consumption, right?
Mm-hmm. Like, if you're, if you're scrolling on Instagram Reels, everything is entertainment, even if it's news.
And that's why something that NBC posts that's, like, a devastating story won't do, do as well because everything on Instagram has to be entertainment. And even if it's educational, even if it's news,
it's entertainment at the end of the day. Right. It's majority entertainment, right? I don't know. I'm curious if you have more opinions on that. I do feel like that's true.
I often feel like the best place for, like, Instagram Reels in that space can be a discovery engine where someone goes, they see a short clip from a doc- Mm...
while they're in the, like, entertainment Reels head space, and maybe they file it away for later or go look it up on their laptop or whatever, and then they switch head space. But I think- Mm...
social as a discovery engine for those things that still don't live on social still does make sense. Um, but yeah, I agree that I think Reels can be a hard space for, for certain content to thrive.
I just think it makes sense for, for almost everything. It makes sense for everything? Like, at least as a discovery engine. Yeah. That's a great place to end it. Let... [laughs] Right there.
[laughs] Um, where should- Instagram Reels is everything to me. Instagram Reels is everything to Macy Gilliam. Where should people go to find your stuff? I'm @macygilliam everywhere.
Um, particularly please go subscribe to my YouTube, which I am super excited about and have lots of fun stuff coming out on soon. Perfect. And if you listen- And Instagram, of course- Oh... which is everything to me.
Instagram is everything to her. Listener, we'll see you next week. Listener, you are everything to me. Ciao. [upbeat music] Hi there. My name's Tom. I'm the producer of the Creator Spotlight podcast.
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