[upbeat music] We inspire each other and, like, for me, I think that does motivate me just to, like, to feel like you're pioneering something for, for other people.
Like, how can we-- what do we need to do to, like, have longevity in this sport into our 40s and, like, be able to share those things too? Welcome to For The Long Run.
We explore the why behind what keeps runners running long, strong, and motivated, and how they've been able to achieve sustainable excellence. I'm your host, Jonathan Levitt, and we're so glad you're here.
This episode is sponsored by Eternal. Eternal is a science-backed preventative health company built for anyone who takes their health and training seriously and wants to live up to their peak.
Located in San Francisco and New York City, Eternal provides comprehensive, integrated primary care services in addition to advanced testing and personalized health planning.
They go beyond your biomarkers and data to provide real answers to any of your health concerns.
From proactive care, acute care, and expedited referrals to performance testing, physical therapy, and personal training, they're healthcare providers that care about you and the lifestyle you strive to live.
Whether you're trying to hit a PR, avoid injury, or simply want a better handle on your health, Eternal gives you the full picture and a plan of action. It's the kind of primary care I've always dreamed was possible.
Thanks again to Eternal for supporting personalized, evidence-based care for athletes like us. This episode is brought to you by Amazfit, the GPS watch that's a serious challenger to the established watch brands.
I've been using their TRX 3, which is an awesome name by the way, built for adventure. Think ultrarunning, big mountain days, or just forgetting about your charger for a week or two.
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Amazfit is focused on making accurate, reliable watches accessible to everyone, from your first 5K to your next 100-miler.
If you want a GPS watch that performs like the big guys but costs way less, check out amazfit.com or hit the link in the show notes to see the TRX 3, the New Balance 2, and their Helio strap, which provides recovery insights and also functions as a higher quality heart rate monitor worn on your wrist or bicep.
You can use code FTLR for 10% off. Amazfit, performance for everyone. And welcome back. We have Sarah Hall joining the podcast today, making her return to the podcast.
We first recorded it in the fall of 2019 in Flagstaff. Today you're calling in from Crested Butte, and I'm in Boulder. So Sarah, welcome back. Thanks. Good to see you. I guess six years, that seems like a long time.
[laughs] Definitely. Um, and you are still running strong. So the first question is always a doozy, and that question is: who is Sarah? I don't know.
I mean, I'm a, like, child of God, likes to run, a mom, wife, passionate about helping people in Ethiopia es- and people living in extreme poverty. Um, an author now. Um, yeah. [laughs] Professional runner for 21 years.
So you are the epitome of, uh, this podcast. The podcast is called For The Long Run, and my goal is to understand what enables people to do it and be successful and keep at it and do amazing things.
We're gonna dive right into it. Like, six years ago we had a similar conversation, and you're running professionally now in year 21. Like, how? Yeah.
It's, um-- Actually, why I wrote my book, [laughs] um, For the Love of the Grind, was kind of like sharing what I could about longevity in the sport. And it's a number of factors, I would say.
It's like, um, you know, mental, physical, spiritual, emotional. It's kind of all of those things 'cause the sport is tough for sure at the professional level. Like, it's, it's an individual sport.
It's just you out there being judged, you know? [laughs] Just your body. And so I think like-- And then also it's just hard on your body, right?
Just the pounding for so many years and how to, yeah, avoid injuries and stuff. So, so I share a lot of that, like the physical.
Also, like, the things that help me mentally, 'cause I definitely was ready to stop running professionally, like, pretty early on in my professional career.
Um, yeah, like 2009 I think I was last place at US Nationals in the track and really struggling physically but also, like, mentally to really enjoy competing.
Um, and so, so really I, I, like-- Yeah, I, I share about, like, for me it was my faith was a big part of how I got rid of that fear of failure and was able to start enjoying competing again.
And then that kind of just started the snowball going the other way and, and also figured out some stuff physically that was going on that helped me just get some more momentum physically and all of that. So, so yeah.
Th- and I g- I guess another answer is just, like, I have an amazing team. Like, I have amazing people helping me, the best people in the world.
And so, um, yeah, I definitely couldn't do this alone at this point in my, my career, but I, I really lean on those people a lot. I want to talk about the mental side, the physical side, the spiritual side.
Let's start with the mental side. So last in that race in 2009 to you've had a handful of fourth place performances, some very strong races that you've done over the years.
Like, what is it about continuing to challenge yourself and see what you can do even when things aren't going as you want? Yeah. I think you really do have to love the process.
Like, like, For the Love of the Grind, the title of the book.
Like, it's like you have to love the training and you have to love the day in, day out because the, the races are never worth it if you don't-- if it's just for the sake of that.
And also, like-It's like those are just the very public moments of what we do, but like there's a million private moments where like no one else has been around but maybe Ryan, you know, that like I treasure just as much as like the really good races I've had because just the feeling of what that feels like to be out there and just, um, like, just being in a flow state, like feeling your body just so powerful, like shocking yourself with what you're able to do in training.
Like those moments I treasure like just as much.
Like I did a, a podcast for the Marathon Project, and they were asking me like what my favorite memory was like from that race, and I was like, when I think of the Marathon Project, like I'm more, more than the race, like, and I ran the second-fastest time in US history that day, but like what I treasure more is like the training, like a couple training moments before that.
Like were just so fun, and like, yeah, it was just like such a breakthrough period for me, so like I almost... Like my mind goes to that when you say The Marathon Project. So it's funny.
But, um, but yeah, I think, yeah, when, when things are not going well, really you have to like... I, I kind of look at it as an opportunity to
just get rid of my ego because really that's the only thing that's hard about it is like if that's really all you have to lose is your ego, like to me that's nothing to lose because like I'm always trying to work on that anyways.
So yeah, I, I think when you can frame it that way, it helps you handle like the harder races easier. I love what you said about thinking about the small moments that nobody sees except for maybe Ryan and, and your team.
And so like I just went through this really incredible training block that, um, brought me to Crested Butte where you are today and like staring down a 40-mile race, like totally unsure of like [chuckles] how I was going to do it, and two months ear- earlier I was injured and not able to run.
And standing on that start line, I was like, "My goodness, this was like a dream training block."
And there were so many fun moments of like doing a six-and-a-half-hour adventure day with a, with a 100-mile and 200-mile champion, Rachael Dutrainkent.
Like the moments that I got to experience in the build-up to that day, the way that you, you're sharing it, like it's not just the race day that matters. Like when you can think of it that way, it's super helpful.
And, and I think amateur runners can relate to like having, setting a, like we're not out there winning races or aspiring to win races, but like I spent four years trying to break three hours in the marathon, and people spend, you know, their entire running career trying to break four hours, five hours, six hours, et cetera.
And if, if your only designation of self-worth is, you know, first place or podium or breaking that time goal, like even when you break it, it's also just a moment, right?
Like even when it goes well, if you're so focused on the outcome, that's fleeting, too. It is, yeah. Like my agent, Josh, uh, Cox, also a friend, um, would- always says it's like chasing the mist, right?
Like it's like you never quite-- like even if you achieve it, it's like there's always something else, like, or you have to back it up or you have to, you know.
So yeah, it really, the outcomes, you know, they, they are really special, and like that's kind of the carrot that you, like, it, it helps to have with training and something you're visualizing, some goal you're going after getting up in the morning.
But yeah, the process is, is the fun part, too. I was just talking with Amanda Basham, who's a pro trail runner, about this yesterday, and she was saying pretty much the same thing.
She's like, "You know, if I, if I only evaluated my success as a runner, like based on race day, like I would've hung it up a long time ago."
And she's had some really exceptional races and, and podiums and race wins and, you know, at some of the highest stages, but she's also had the opposite.
And, um, I just think [chuckles] I told her like my agenda with this podcast is to highlight that the pro runners think about running in quite similar ways that amateurs can and perhaps should, even despite, like you're being paid to run, and you're saying it's all about...
not all about, but there's a lot of room to focus on the process, the joy, the fun, the moments, the community, all of the stuff that's quite different than, you know, if, if you just assume that all that matters, it, for pro athletes is winning.
Like that's not correct. For sure. Yeah. Yeah, I feel lucky.
Um, you know, my entire pro career I've been sponsored by ASICS, which is, yeah, over 20 years now, and I, I feel like that has, they've helped me be able to have that perspective, 'cause, you know, obviously performance matters, like even with them, but they aren't like a cutthroat company where it's like you're only as good as your last race and you're gonna get reduced if you don't, you know, perform and stuff.
And so I think when you have that kind of sponsor and that kind of like pressure all the time, like it can be really tough to, like it, it really kind of has to be sometimes about the last race and about performance.
But when you are valued kind of for who you are as a holistic person and athlete and have a little more like loyalty, I feel like it helps to be able to not have negative pressure and be- and have more like the positive motivators in a race.
How do those conversations go? Um, you mentioned that they've helped kind of shape that for you.
How have they done that, and like what does that look like for them to care about Sarah the human versus Sarah the sponsored runner? Yeah.
I would say it's, it's less like conversations and more just, like their actions, you know? Like I think, yeah, I mean, l- like they continued to support me at times I was really struggling on the track.
And, and then like one moment that stands out was like before the 2020 trials, marathon trials, like, uh, we were doing a photo shoot at ASICS and, um, our rep, Ben, was kind of pointing out things about everyone and, and he's like, "It's so awesome to..."
Like I'd just ran 2:22 in Berlin, like sixth fastest time in US history, and he was like, "It's so great to like see Sarah becoming like the athlete we like always knew she could be," you know?
And like that just like meant a lot to me that like, I don't know, they like saw my potential and like they were willing to like stick it out with me through some hard years.
And yeah, I think like-You know, I, I failed to make the Olympic team in Orlando, but, like, my rep's like, "I couldn't have been any prouder of, like, how you ran," you know?
And, and, like, they just-- they took my option year after I really sh- had a really tough race in Chicago last fall. They took my option to extend my contract, you know? And, like, like, those are all...
I think it's more, like, the actions, too, you know? Like, just how they, um, they've, like, just continued to, like, support me and, like, believe in me. Yeah, even, even at 42, it's like, it's easy not to, right?
It's, like, easy to just wanna sign someone younger and-- that comes along. [laughs] Yeah.
And, I mean, when you started running professionally, we didn't have any-- so many of these examples of, of women who are just, like, crushing in their 30s and 40s.
And so what is it like to, like, be leading that charge and showing that...
Like, I just had a conversation with Amanda Brooks the other day, and all of her coaching is focused on women who are 40-plus, or a lot of her coaching is focused on women who are 40-plus.
And she's like, "Look at, look at people like Sarah and, and Keira, and all these athletes who are crushing it." And, like, you're an example and inspiration to those people.
And I just think about, like, how much running has done for me, and thinking about how people can have more confidence in themselves, and just that trickle-down effect of, like, you're out there doing it, so somebody else is thinking that they can be out there doing it, too.
Is that something you think about? Is that like-- is that fire-- fuel for the fire for you? It is, yeah. I think it really-- it's-- especially you go places like Boston where
people are really serious about the sport for their age, and, like, it really-- I th- they've just communicated to me, like, if you're still trying to, like, run with the best people in the world, then it makes it s- feel like my goals, which are, um, not as hard, are still possible for me, you know?
And, um, that is cool. It's, um, it's something that, yeah, I mean, I definitely never imagined doing it at this age.
Um, I remember, I, I wrote about this in my book, that, like, Deena Kastor would joke about being old when we'd be, like, in the weight room, and she was, like, 32. And- [laughs]...
and I was like, "Yeah, that's, that's so old." [laughs] Like, I'm-- like, "I can't imagine doing this at that age," like, I can't... [laughs] Like, I can't believe she's still running.
And at the time, like, that was, like, really, like- [laughs]... like, unusual. Like, most women did not do it past, like, 30. And so, so now to, like...
It's, yeah, it's, I think to now kind of re-standardize things with, with some of us has been-- we're kinda pioneering, like, what, yeah, like, how good can you be?
And, and then we have role models, too, of, like, um, Edna Kiplagat. You know, like, to me, she ran-- she got third at Boston at 44 years old, and that was a stacked field. Like, really, like, really, really deep.
So, like, that to me meant a lot. And, and you see, like, Kipchoge, right? Like, he's, like, 40-plus, right? Like, probably hard to know exactly, like, but potentially 44 or 45 or [laughs] something, you know?
And so, um, so yeah. I think, um, we inspire each other. And, like, for me, I think that does motivate me just to, like, to feel like you're pioneering something for, for other people.
Like, how can we-- what do we need to do to, like, have longevity in this sport into our 40s and, like, be able to share those things, too?
I think a lot of people listening are in that age bracket and, you know, women in their 40s. Like, what do you want to say to them? I would say just, um, keep an open mind of, like, what's possible.
And I think for me, a big thing was not joking about being old, like, being really careful about, like, what I said. Like, because I believe, like, there's power in our words.
Like, what we speak over ourselves a lot of times comes to pass, or, like, it can impact you, you know? So I'm really careful about what I say. Like, I think it's like--
I think it's cultural to kind of just joke about stuff like that or, like, be sarcastic or use the grandma emoji, you know? Like, "Ugh, I'm old now," you know?
But it's like I don't do any of that, and, like, I've been really intentional, like, not to do that 'cause, like… And I learned that from, um, my coach, Terrence.
So when, when Deena would be joking about being old, he's like, "Deena, like, when you start saying you're old, you start the clock," you know? And, like, he was joking and stuff, but s- but also serious.
And, like, I don't know, for some reason, I filed that away in my head, and I was like-- I was 23 or 4 at the time or something, but, like, I was like, "Oh yeah," like, "that makes sense."
Like, I've seen in my own life, like, how what I speak over myself, like, changes things. So I've-- yeah, I think, yeah, just keep an open mind.
Like, don't, you know, don't, like, think any, any less of yourself or, like, lower your goals or expectations of yourself just 'cause of that, you know? I love that.
I was gonna make a joke about the ripe old age of 35, but I won't now. That's where I'm at. Um, and yeah, it's like the words you use have such an influence on the subconscious, right?
Like, I still think of myself as, like, a 25-year-old, and sometimes that gets me in trouble when I don't do my warm-ups or [laughs] stretching or anything like that. But yeah, it's, it's, it's just a number.
Okay, so moving-- we talked about the, the mental side and, and what's enabled the doing it for the long run, uh, pun intended. Um, let's talk about the physical side.
What are the, you know, your, your secrets to-- your not-so-secrets to longevity in the sport on the physical side? Are there-- are you focused on, you know, honoring recovery in a certain way?
Is there something nutrition-related that you feel is your, your strong suit? Like, how do you, how do you balance or how do you think about the, the physical side of the longevity aspect? Yeah.
I think, um, a big part of it is listening to your body. Like, I think I've always been good at that as an athlete, whereas Ryan would say, like, he was...
Like, that was kind of his downf- one of his downfalls was, like, just getting really married to, like, numbers. Like, "I have to hit 130 miles in the week," or whatever it is.
Like, and instead of just, just flowing with things and doing the right, maybe it's more than that, but maybe it's less than that another week, and I think I've always been really good at that.
Um, and yeah, I, I also work with, like, a really incredible body worker named John Ball, and, like, he's really helped me with my mechanics, especially, like, in, um, I started to have, like, a long injury cycle that started in-After World Championships in 2022.
And, um, yeah, there was a year after that where, like, there were more days I couldn't run than I could run, and that was the first time I've had that in the sport.
I always felt like durability was, like, my strength as an athlete before that, but then I just all of a sudden was completely broken.
And, and so through that process, like, the way out of that was, like, really working on my mechanics.
And so I'm really a big proponent on, like, getting your body to move better, and there's different ways you can do that.
Um, self massage, like, learning how to work on yourself, 'cause, I mean, you can't see a person every day. You know, it's too expensive or it's too not people's life.
Like, they don't have the ability to get off work or whatever it is. And so just learning how to take care of yourself. Also, learning, like, certain form cues that, um, for me, that's really...
Like, I've just improved my mechanics a lot, and I, I feel better than in my 20s now when I run. Like, my- I feel smoother. Like, my s- my stride feels more powerful. Like, and so that's what's cool.
I think, I really wish I'd done this stuff, like, a lot earlier. But I think what's, what's cool is, like, for people in their 40s, just knowing there's, like, there's other things you can... You know, age, you can't...
It's a real thing. Like, it's not just a number, right?
And so it's, it is gonna impact you in certain areas, but there's other things you can improve, and then the net of that could be faster or it could be staying the same. You know? But, um, but yeah.
So mechanics has been one of them for me, and, um, strength training has been a big part of it. Cross-training at times.
Like, if my body's, like, not moving well, I'm more likely to, like, supplement with some cross-training because I feel like I have just, like, a shorter leash now of if, of dis- if there's, like, dysfunction, like,
I have a shorter leash, and I used to be able to re- run through that more. But now, yeah, I'm, I'm less likely to just, like, slog through for the sake of, like, hitting some mileage number or something.
And I've noticed a few more trail runs on your socials lately. Is that, is that a recent change? Is that something that's always been a part of making sure that the running is fun and not just, you know, hard road miles?
Yeah. I would say it's, um, less recent and maybe I just share it more. But, um, I, like, started in the trails.
Like, I grew up just running single-track trails across the street from my house, super hilly, techy trails.
And, and I've always, like, even in college, like, I, I don't know, we never knew that, like, hard long runs was a thing. We'd go out into, like, the trails and, um, in the redwoods and stuff and do our runs there.
I th- and then I got away from it a little bit. Like, just I had some injuries from tripping for a while. [laughs] Like, those were my only injuries were, like, I have size 10 feet. Ankle rolls. Yeah. [laughs] Yeah.
So, um, but then f- being in Crested Butte more, like, it's like the more, most beautiful spots are, like, in the trails.
And so it's, it's more like, yeah, I just really value the process a lot of, like, h- like, the vibes of where I run, you know, [laughs] is, like, a big priority versus, like, yeah, maybe I can run a little faster if I'm on a dirt road or somewhere flatter, but, like, I just, like, wanna get in the aspens.
You know? And so, um, but also, like, I, I would like to race in the trails eventually. And so it's kind of me, like, just getting comfortable propriocepting, too, like, kind of easing my way towards that.
Um, like, Ryan's stuff that he's done in the trails here in Cal- in Crested Butte just looks so amazing, and he's, he says he's having more fun than when he was running professionally.
Like, he's like, "Like, I enjoy this way more than, like, when I was at my peak." You know? And so that makes me, like, wanna do more of that kind of stuff with him eventually. So, so I'm kind of, like, easing into it.
But, um, yeah. [laughs] We gotta have a chat with him about all the trail running and push him to, to do some racing. That would be cool.
But we would love to see you doing trail races, um, sometime down the, down the road.
I've had conversations with Kara Goucher about, like, her first trail race and her first couple of trail races, and she thought at first that people would expect her to win, and that it would be a huge disappointment if she didn't win.
She, like, came in sixth in a, in a 50K and was super disappointed.
And she was then surprised with, like, how welcoming everyone was, and they didn't really care where she finished, and they were like, "Did you have fun?" and "Did you enjoy the, the buffets at the aid stations?"
and, like, "Did you smile the whole way?" And that's, like, that's the vibe that, um, I think people are, are finding when they race trails, let alone, like, run trails.
And you're in Crested Butte, and, uh, we were just talking before we started recording, and I think that's the most beautiful place in the world, um, at least the places that I've been, and definitely in the state, uh, of Colorado.
And it's just like, [laughs] like, are you kidding me with this? This is stunning out here. So gotta get you up high into the, into the mountains and those, like, 360-degree views of, of mountains all around.
It's just like, I could not believe it was real when I was out there a few weeks ago. That's awesome. Yeah. You know, I definitely,
definitely would love to do that in the future, and I definitely have a lot of respect for trail running. Like, I don't expect to just, like, be able to crush races there or something.
Like, I, I know one pro runner, like, she's like, "Yeah, I'll probably, like, do UTMB after..." You know, and I, like, I have a lot of respect for something like UTMB.
[laughs] Like, I may never be able to do something like that. But, but yeah. I definitely am following the sport more and trying to learn it more from afar.
And, like, um, it helps having, like, friends like Alicia Vargo that's a pro trail runner and just, like, learning it from her and stuff. So, um, so yeah. I'm excited for that in the future at some point. Yeah.
Uh, her and Chris have some really fun trails right in their backyard now they're in Breckenridge. And, um, yeah, the s- the photos that they post, it's just, like... But, and that's, like, right out their front door.
It's wild. Yeah. Yeah. And they'd love to come out here and visit and, um... So yeah, I'm, I'm excited to run more with her on the trails eventually. Amazing. [upbeat music] Reviews are like cheers from the sidelines.
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[upbeat music] Are you always thinking about your next mountain escape just like I am? Skip the crowds and head to Leadville, Colorado, the highest incorporated city in North America.
From skiing at Ski Cooper to cozy cabin adventures at Tennessee Pass to January's Fat Bike Worlds and the brand-new Sauna Festival. Yes, you heard that right. Leadville is packed with winter magic.
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[upbeat music] Well, hopefully there's a long road-running career ahead, but the trail community is thrilled to have you join it one day.
Um, and it's really exciting in trails because there is a focus on speed, and there is a, there is a, there are a lot of, like, 20-year-old, athletes in their 20s that are coming out of college and going straight into trail now, and it's, it's changed from the perception of, like, that [chuckles] trails, trails are where marathoners go to retire.
And, like, to be competitive in trail running, you need, you need really, a really strong base and really, really high levels of fitness. Um, so it- it's cool to see these days. Absolutely, yeah.
I think, I imagine that I would kind of, like, go back and forth. You know? Like, where it's like you do some trail races and then you do some road races. And, like, I've seen that even with, like, Lauren Gregory.
Like, she did, like, a half in the winter this winter, and then she's doing trails now. And, and, uh, Sarah Alonso, I think, ran a half in the winter too.
And so, so yeah, it seems like it's beneficial to really work on that speed and, or, like, to keep-- I think in any event, like, keeping speed close is really important, you know? Yeah.
So a couple years ago, I, I spent a training block training for the mile, and then, um, I did the Crested Butte 55K like six or seven weeks later.
And it was such a wild experience to come into that 55K with that aerobic engine, and, like, I was running uphill at 11,000 feet. And that wasn't because I specifically trained for a 55K and to run uphill at 11,000 feet.
It was 'cause I had that crazy engine from, from the mile. And so yeah, I totally agree. I think that there is so much benefit in, like, getting fast, staying fast, and leveraging that for trails.
But even more so, like as we were talking about before, like, it's just fun, right?
Like, we can make choices about what race to do by categorizing ourselves as road runners or trail runners, or we can just say, like, "This sounds fun.
That sounds fun," and kind of pick things off based on what's stoking the fire in that moment. Absolutely, yeah. I think that's the benefit of kind of being off the, like, track circuit. You know?
I feel like that's, like, a very distinct circuit of, like, what you do, you know? But then, like, in the roads or the, or the trails and stuff, you can really, like, yeah, what's, what's just exciting you.
Like, follow your curiosity, you know? Let's talk more about curiosity. Curiosity's a principle that I've noticed, uh, to be a common trait with people who have done conventionally awesome things, right?
Things that, like, society deems as like, "Yep, that's awesome." So what's your relationship with, with curiosity, and how does that influence your training and, um, how you think about the sport?
I think it's a big part of it, really.
Like, I think it's what kept me in the sport for a really long time because yeah, like I said, like, I was pretty ready to be done early, but then there'd always be some curiosity, like one road race or something that I felt really good where you're like, "Yeah," but, like, there was these, these glimmers of moments where you, like, saw what was possible, and you were like, "I kinda wanna, like, keep going to see."
And you know, I remember I, I didn't make the 2016 Olympic team in the marathon. I actually dropped out. I was in LA.
And it would've made sen- Like, we'd just adopted our kids, and our families were kinda like, "Why are you still doing this?" You know?
[chuckles] And, like, I think, like, you know, it would've made sense just to, like, move on at that point. Ryan had retired. But I think it was just, I was just still curious.
Like, I just really loved the training for that race. It was my second marathon and, or third marathon, and I was just, like, really loving, like, getting faster at marathon training each time out and the process.
Um, so yeah, it's, it's that. It's also curious of just, like, how evolving how we do things. I think Ryan and I have always liked to experiment. He experiments a ton on himself now even.
Like, he's, he was doing this treadmill workout yesterday where he had this giant pile of shoes, and he was, like, doing a 400 in each pair of shoes and, like, like, comparing them and, like, you know, just...
I don't know. Like, he's always keeping a journal of, like, his, all his kind of experiments he does on himself.
And then for me now, I think in doing this in my 40s, it's, it's, you're, you're constantly, like, being like, "What if I did this instead?"
Like, "I, I wonder if I would handle it better," or, "I wonder if I could accomplish the same thing with less risk," or, you know, you're kinda just, just playing around with things, which is fun. It's fun.
Like, I don't-- When I see people that do the same type of training year in, year out, to me that seems boring. Like, I like to evolve what I do and, and do things differently. Love it.
Okay, so New York is coming up in a couple of weeks. What is firing you up about that race in this season? I feel really excited for New York.
Um, I've really only gotten to run it once, like nine years ago, and I'm just, like, a different marathoner since from then. That was, like, one of my first marathons.
And I tried to run it in 2019, but I got food poisoning and had to-Unfortunately, dropped out. I was, like, right before the 2020 trials too. Um, so, so yeah, it's just like a race.
New York's just, like, somewhere I've always raced well. Like, I-- Like, all of my big wins in my career have, like, happened there, and kind of like, it just, like, makes me excited, like that city.
And when I think about totally transitioning to the trails, like, what I, I know I'll miss is, like, moments like New York, like, those kind of stages.
Like, I think that's, like, everything I love about marathon running, like those really big stages, and it's, it's in cities that excite you and stuff. So, so yeah, I think, um, as a place, as a race, like, that's why.
But also, yeah, I think, like, I feel like there's just more I haven't quite seen in my recent marathons that I'd love to kind of, like, prove out there, and, like, I feel like I've gotten away from, like, needing to prove myself to others or myself, like, in my career.
Like, for a long time, I, I've, I've gotten away from that in a healthy way. Like, but I feel like a healthy amount of, like, proving, like, I'm still here, like, I still wanna be competitive and do this.
And, um, yeah, it feels like a fun amount of that. So, um, so yeah, I feel like that too when I think of New York, and yeah, just excited to be healthy and, like, feel the body strong and out there.
With a stage like New York, is it the history? Is it the crowds? Like, the energy around it? What, what's the vibe that you're drawn to there? Yeah, it's all of that for sure. I don't know.
There's just, like, no city quite like New York, uh, how it f- how it feels, and yeah, the history, I mean, I've watched Ryan run there.
I've, I-- for a while, I was going every year 'cause ASICS was the title sponsor, and I was just, like, I was coming from the track, and I was like, "Wow," like, "This is so much cooler."
[laughs] And, like, just, like, was amazed watching. And it's just, like, it's fall.
You know, it's, it's everything that's great about road running, um, like that crisp fall weather and, like, s- the leaves changing in Central Park.
And, like, I, I-- what I like about New York, it's, like, really international. So, like, I feel like every of the major marathons has, like, a different feel.
Like, Boston, it's very much about, you know, people that are very serious about running, like, they have to qualify. They're really, they, they follow the sport.
And then New York is, like, super international, and it's really cool to just see all the different cultures and get to meet people that have followed your career from, like, halfway around the world for a long time, things like that.
Yeah. I volunteered there once, and I think I spectated once, and it-- just, like, the-- Boston has crowds that are, you know, five, six deep, and [chuckles] New York is, like, 10 deep. It's wild. Yeah.
Yeah, they both are just so, so awesome. That, like, there's few races that, like, just make me smile a lot out there, you know, 'cause it's so painful. But those two races, like, I'll just be, like, smiling.
I'm like, "This is just crazy," you know? I ran Boston one year, and I finished, and the next day, my biceps and triceps were sore from, like, going like this the whole way down Beacon Street. Oh, cool.
[laughs] And it's just like, there's noth- there's nothing like, like it. Yeah. That's awesome. Okay, let's talk about your kids and the, the fact that they're now out running and, and doing some training with you.
What's that evolution been like? It's been fun. Um, yeah, I would say, like, it's a little less now than it was with my older two daughters 'cause they were both really serious about running. They were state champions.
They went on to run in college. Um, so that was really fun 'cause it was a lot of, like, our easy runs, we would-- like, they could keep up with me at seven min- minute pace, 7:30 pace and stuff.
But with my younger two, they are-- they're definitely, like, not as into running as, as my older daughters, but they still do enjoy running.
They enjoy-- They're both doing cross-country right now, and Jasmine, who's a senior in high school, she's a very, like, social runner, so she will never just go-- wanna go for a run by herself.
But if I'm going for a run, she'll, like, wanna join me. And all summer, she likes to hop in and out of my workouts 'cause I do a lot of 'em on a loop in Gunnison.
And so she'll just, like, run a minute, like, cut across, run another minute, you know.
And, and I'll be doing a tempo run or a long run or something, and she'll be doing little, like, intervals of it, and she loves that.
She'll even get up really early, and, and shows, like, like she wants to be out there, you know, which is-- it's really fun.
Like, for me, like two summers ago, I was, I was really struggling, like, I just didn't feel like myself, and I wasn't responding well to training, and it brought, like, a lot of joy to my training that otherwise would've been even harder, like, to have her out there and, like, experiencing it with her.
Um, but yeah, it's, it's been fun to, like, just see all of my girls kind of have different relationships with running, and I've just encouraged them, like, running is, is always gonna be there for you, you know?
Like, and, and it's something you can always pick up and do, like, whenever.
And my oldest daughter, like, I didn't know if she would keep running after she graduated college, but she's like, "I wanna tr- qualify for Boston." And I-- like, I was like, "Okay." Like, "I don't know how to do that."
Like, I have to look up, like, what do you have to run, and, like, uh, by when, and how do you register? Like, I don't know all that stuff.
So I, like, looked that up for her, and we got her, like, you know, it's-- track season's pretty, pretty late considering you have to qualify by a time by September, and so we found a marathon in Au- late August in my hometown and, um, got to pace her for the second half of that race.
And yeah, it was, um, really fun, like, just getting-- I'm really, really excited for her to experience Boston.
Like, she already loves the roads, and I know that she'll, she'll j- it'll just blow her mind, and so, so yeah, that's, that's always really fun just get, to get to, like, share something you love with your kids, you know?
Like, it's, it's, it's tempting to, like-- You're always, like, trying to make sure they know, like, I'm not trying to force you to become a runner, you know, like, all that.
But at the same time, it is, like, like in-- with anything, like, you wanna find common ground. You wanna find things that you both all enjoy.
And so, so yeah, I've appreciated that.I love that you paced her in the, in the race. That's super cool. Um, Emma Bates just wrote about her, um, experience running a half-marathon in Copenhagen with her friend Erin.
Um, so she was like, "This was wild. Like, nobody was keeping us dry in the corrals, and there was no place to warm up."
And she had, like, a lot of very funny realizations as a pro runner, like, doing a c- the citizens race. Like, what, what was your experience?
Um, what were some of the pieces that surprised you in participating in, in the race in that way? Yeah. I, I know.
I'm definitely not looking forward to those days where you have to, like, be out there for super long [laughs] in the cold and, um, yeah.
I think with Hannah it was like, okay, I guess we have to look at, like, what they're offering on the course for fluids, 'cause you're not getting bottles out there.
[laughs] Like, you know, like, let's practice with what's out there on the course first.
And it was like, oh, like, make sure you, like, go get your bib or things by the right time, because they're not just gonna, like, bring it to you wherever you are, like at the start- [laughs]... in it. So, um, yeah.
I think, yeah, it was, it was, like, this one was nice and low-key, and they, they did a good job taking care of us, 'cause, um, it's my hometown and stuff.
But, but yeah, I w- I was carrying a lot of her gels for her and things that, like, when she does Boston she'll have to figure out, I guess.
But I, I was, like, it was the, the mom in me that's, like, trying to help with all the logistics. [laughs] But... That's awesome.
Um, so you mentioned that one of the things outside of running that's a, a major focus and passion for you is, is helping those that, um, experiencing poverty, and particularly in Ethiopia.
Where does, where does that passion and, and interest come from, and what does that look like in terms of how you, how you're doing that? Yeah.
Um, I talk a lot in my book about, like, where that started at a younger age, um, in trips to Mexico with my youth group.
But, um, but yeah, it's, you know, obviously Ethiopia with my kids, like, I spent a lot of time over there during the adoption process. And, um, I've always, like, been really gripped by the,
by extreme poverty in the world. Like, my sisters, um, does malaria research, so I would visit her in different countries in Africa. And you see the orphan crisis, like, you see just really heart-wrenching s- stuff.
And I think it's really important, I think, to see that firsthand. I think when you're just watching it on TV or hearing about it, like, it doesn't quite hit you the same as being there. And, um, for me, like,
spending time in developing countries, like, totally changed the trajectory of my life. It's what led me to adopt my kids. It's, like, what led us to start our charity, The Hull Steps Foundation.
And, um, so currently, like, we're starting our own project in Ethiopia for the first time.
Thus far we've been supporting really good work happening there with, like, orphan care, and there's, like, over 60,000 kids living on the street in just the capital city alone. So we've been funding,
like, a home for, um, kids coming off the street and different things like that.
But we're gonna actually be starting our own project to help kids coming off the street and, and provide them with either education or job training and get them, like, on a better track of life.
Um, so yeah, so that's been, like, a big thing that I'm working on, um, now that my book is, I'm kinda in the final stages of that, and now this project is kind of, um, a big part of, like, what I'm doing outside of training and my kids.
And to me, this is what I wanna do post, like, running career, and it's what I've always thought I would do after college.
So it's kinda just, like, running's been a really long tangent [laughs] basically from doing this. But I still wanna, um, even while I'm competing, like, continue to, like, work in these areas, for sure.
What can people listening, um, to this do to, to help support that? Yeah. Well, you can, um, donate. You can run a race, um, to fundraise for the charity.
Chrissy Geer just sent me, like, prize money from her track season, which was, like, so touching. Um, and yeah, I think, uh, I'll share a, a lot more about the project as it gets going. Um, but it's something that, like,
to me, I, I don't know, I just, I've always looked at, like, how I spend money, and I'm like, "This money could go to someone that's, like, starving to death," you know?
And it's, like, hard for me to justify living really extravagantly and, like, spending it on, you know,
like, a, a really expensive meal or something when I'm like, I've always tried to live by the Gandhi quote, like, "Live simply so others may simply live," you know?
And there's so much of the world is struggling just to simply survive, you know?
And I think that disconnect of, like, how we live here in the US, like, we feel disconnected, but the, the truth is we're all connected, right?
And so it is impacting us that that's happening, and yet we're living in a, like, this totally alternate reality [laughs] here, you know? So, so yeah, so, um,
the Hu- uh, the stepsfoundation.org is our, um, charity's website, but, um, yeah. [laughs] Another piece that is foundational to your experience is the aspect of religion.
And so how does that play into, and how does your faith play into what makes you whole? Yeah. It's, it's a big part of, as I mentioned, like, for me dealing with the pressure of the sport.
And, and really it was more, like, developing an identity apart from who I was as an athlete. Like, really getting rooted in, like, when you ask, like, "Who are you?" Right?
Like, and I think first, like, ch- I'm a child of God. Like, He created all of us in His image.
And I didn't realize, like, for so long I had kind of made my identity around being successful, 'cause I'd had a lot of success in the sport early.
And, and then all of a sudden it's like, that's on the line every time out if, like, that's where you're getting your identity from, you know?
And, um, I really had to realize, like, I'm worthy of, like, love and belonging, like, no matter what. Like, like, really experience God's unconditional love. And for me, that took a lot of failure.
It took, like, in that time of, like-Getting last at US Nationals to really feel God's love, that he couldn't be, like, any prouder of, like, me, or, like, he couldn't love me any more in that moment.
And yeah, I talk about some pretty cool, like, supernatural experiences I've had in my book.
Um, and those were really powerful because I grew up in the church, but, like, I always wanted to experience God more than I had, and I always knew there was more.
And so it's a lot, like, I talk in the book about just my quest of that. Like, um, just wanting to experience more of the supernatural and, and how that, like, shaped things in my own life and in my running career.
And it was why we moved to Redding, um, in 2011, like right before the Olympic year, right before Ryan ran the marathon trials. We, like, moved to just, um, see what God was doing in this one area of the world.
And, um, yeah, it's, it's been, um, it's cool. I think in the, in my book, you, you really see my faith journey, like, 'cause it's evolved, too, right? Like, I'm... I definitely don't have the same beliefs or, like,
kind of, I don't operate the same way I did in my faith, like, in high school or college. Like, it's really, like, grown, and I think that's, like, healthy.
But yeah, it's, uh, yeah, it's a big part of who I am, and, like, I think when I, when I think of longevity, like, to me, we're body, soul, and spirit.
And when you just live in the physical, like, there was a time in my career I was just trying so hard to do everything right physically, and I neglected those other areas of myself that, like, I actually was, like,
really poorly performing. But it was when I started to invest in, like, all of that that I actually started performing better, 'cause I think we need to-- we're a whole person. And yeah, you can't neglect those areas.
How do you think about balance as it relates to that, right?
'Cause people, people will often say you can have different priorities, or you can have different things that are important to you, and it's very hard to, to focus on all of them equally all the time.
So is there, like, an ebbing and flowing of these different pieces of, of Sarah? I think so. I think there's seasons.
Like, I think, like, going all in as a professional athlete on a sport, like, it's, like, okay for a season, right?
But it's like, it's probably not a healthy thing for your entire life to be, to live that, like, focused singularly on, you know, like, your performance and stuff.
But yeah, I think-- and I don't think it's necessarily, like, trying to spend the same amount of time, like, doing everything. It's more just, like, like how do I still get filled up in this area?
Like, even if it's spending, like, 10 minutes to meditate or, like, get, like, taking the extra time to drive somewhere beautiful to run because, like, getting in nature is, like, really important to my spiritual side, you know?
And whatever it is, like, it's, uh, I think just, like, yeah, just being intentional with all of them at once. Speaking of intentionality, you've been pretty intentional with where you live and train.
Talk to me about how, how you think about that, and, and I think that, like, I always envisioned myself living in Massachusetts for my whole life, and I ended up in Colorado temporarily, and then it's been four years.
And I think that there's a lot of good, a lot of value in changing your environment and changing the, the day-to-day and what normal looks like and this and that.
Like, how, how much of that-- how much do you think about that and, and as it relates to Flagstaff versus Redding versus Crested Butte? Yeah. I've always really liked change.
Um, I'm like a gypsy at heart, so I think, like, I love, like,
like, I've been in Flagstaff a month, I'm like, "I wanna go to Quito and train for a little while," or, like, "I wanna get back to Ethiopia," or, like, there's always the adventure part of me, and that's, that was a fun part of my book, too, is just- You're gonna love trail running.
[laughs] I know I will. Um, so yeah. I think, like, for me, adventure, like, fills me up, even if it's just exploring a new run in your own city. But I've always gotten a lot out of,
yeah, like, new places, um, keeping it-- That's really kept my career fresh, I think, and I've always learned a lot from, like, I talk a lot about what it was like to train in Ethiopia and really get embraced by a team there and, like, not just be, like, a tourist kind of, like, observing the, the training there, but I actually, like, have lo- like, spent a lot of time training with a group there and, like, actually seen, like, how they do things.
And that really impacted, like, how I, like, trained for the marathon and w- I feel like what helped me really be successful in the marathon. And so, so yeah. I feel like you gain so much from everywhere you go.
Like, for me, the, the place in, in Redding, like, being a part of the church community there, like, I-- that's what allowed me to be able to adopt my kids, I feel like.
I, like, I, I kind of gained all the, like, just personal, um, growth that I needed to be able to say yes to them. And I think also just, like, as a mom, like, you have to--
you're, like, your kids are looking to you, right, for, like, wisdom and, like, direction and everything.
And it's like, I feel like I needed to grow up myself to be able to, like, have something to give them, and if I had just been a mom at 22, like, I don't think I would've been a very good mo- [laughs] you know, like, I don't, I don't think I would've had all of that.
So I feel like all of those places that have shaped me, like, I was able to, yeah, pass that on to them, too. So what were some of those takeaways that you learned from the training group in Ethiopia? Yeah.
Um, you'll have to read the book to find out all of them, but I think, like, a lot of it was, like, a mindset with how they trained.
Like, I feel like we can be really kind of calculated with how we go about things, where it's like, oh, we're trying to just, like, hit this
one pace the whole time, or like, we're gonna run in these, like, really controlled settings and controlled places.
And, like, there it was just, like, a lot more wild and, like, a lot more, like, I don't know, just, um, just, like, sending it [laughs] a lot more. And I think I can see why racing, it doesn't feel as...
It probably feels really calm, 'cause a lot of the places we trained were really chaotic, and you just get re- you learn to just kind of keep your peace amidst all of it.
And, and then I would guess, like, you know, moves are being made in a marathon or something, it doesn't feel anything like, you know, dodging stray dogs or like, uh, like, like, really intense traffic whizzing around you or things like that that happen in a, on the roads all the time.
So, um, so yeah, a lot of it was, like, mentally, but also, also just how, like, the workouts they do and yeah, just kind of like, they're not trying to, like, set up workouts a lot of times.
Like, it's just like, yeah, you're not trying to, like, I'm gonna, like, rest for this long tempo and try to, like, really crush it for Strava or something like that. [laughs] Like, they're not, like, doing that.
[laughs] So. Cool. Sarah, this has been a blast. Can't wait to see, uh, your race in New York, and then eventually what the trail racing looks like for you. And, uh, we'll see you out there. Thank you.
I look forward to being out there with you guys at some point. [laughs] Of course. Thanks. [upbeat music] That's it for today's episode. Like many long runs with friends, it's sad when it has to end.
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