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[upbeat music] If you're not having fun on your runs, you need to go back to the drawing board and, like, reevaluate what's going on, and how can you change it. Because you're right, you know, it's not our job to run.

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No one's forcing us to run. Um, at the end of the day, no one really cares [laughs] if we go on a run or not. You know what I mean?

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Welcome to For The Long Run, the podcast exploring the why behind what keeps runners running long, strong, and motivated. I'm your host, Jonathan Levitt.

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Through personal and professional connections in the running world, I have the privilege of getting to know some amazing athletes.

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I've always been fascinated by the psychological aspect of running, and this podcast is aimed at exploring this and much more. I hope you enjoy.

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[upbeat music] All right. Welcome back.

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I have Natalie Mitchell joining me on the podcast today.

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Natalie and I have had a saga of a time getting this, um, podcast scheduled and recorded and, and have had a, a comically large number of, uh, uh, technical issues.

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So Natalie, uh, very excited to hopefully have a full conversation with you here today on the podcast. Oh my gosh, me too, Jonathan. You know, I think this has actually been really fun.

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We've gotten to know each other, um, a bit better with this whole craziness. [laughs] That is true, and you had me on your podcast in the meantime, so thank you for that.

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Um, I think by the time that this episode airs, uh, that will be out, so go ahead and check out, um, the Sweet Run podcast, uh, for my episode over there. Uh, but in the meantime, let's talk about you.

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Uh, who is Natalie? Oh, man. That seems like a multi-layered- Harder the second time, right? [laughs] Yes. A multi-layered question. Okay. Who is Natalie? Um, okay.

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So I am a mom of three kids. I am a runner who loves the sport. I am a wife. Um, and I just feel like right now I'm an extremely busy person, [laughs]

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more so than, than usual. I'm a podcast host, and I'm just a person who really loves this life. And you can feel the joy. So if you don't follow Natalie on, on social, I highly recommend it.

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Um, you can feel the joy in her posts, and, um, and it's, uh... What's the word I'm looking for? It's contagious, um, in a good way, so thank you for that.

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Um, so again, given this is a running podcast, let's sort of set the stage for you as a runner, and then we'll dive into all the other aspects of life. Um, do you remember your first run? So, yes.

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I think I do. I mean, I started running at a really young age, but I remember running with a f- a friend of mine, a little girlfriend of mine. We were just little kids, and

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we had a corn field in the front of our house and a corn field in the back of our house in our backyard, um, when I was growing up in Ohio.

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And I just remember running through the corn fields with my next-door neighbor, who was a good friend of mine, and exploring and just kinda, like, looking up at the big blue sky and running through these corn fields and wondering what we were gonna find.

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And our feet were dirty, and it was like the epitome of being a kid. And it's like, there's so many moments in running that mean a lot to me, but I distinctly remember that moment and just feeling so free

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and just feeling like, I don't know, like life was just a good place and I just wanted to constantly be outside running around. So that was my first memory of running.

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And how do you keep that same vibe, uh, true today? That's a good question. So I kinda take the same approach. Like, I feel like, you know, we just...

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I feel like sometimes we get so bogged down with all the things that we have to do, and, like, running is the one, the one part of my day where I just feel like a little kid.

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Like, I can just go outside and explore and do all these really fun adventures, whether it's, like, I have a hard workout or whether it's just an easy run, and I just feel like I can

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literally unplug and get away from everything. And I think that's one of the reasons why I just keep running. I mean, yeah, I have goals and all those things, but I mean, just the pure

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love of the sport, of being outside, feeling my feet on dirt. That is-- there's nothing like it. Totally agree. And so now you are-- you're in southern California, right? And you've got plenty of dirt around you.

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Is that, is that a true statement? That is a true statement. We are planted firmly in southern California with a lot of dirt, grass, and sand. [laughs] Yes. So it is, it's pretty sweet, um, living here.

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You can run year-round and, yeah, we love living here. It's a lot of fun. Can you not run year-round elsewhere? [laughs] Fa- oh, y- you know what? [laughs] You got me on that. You can run year-round anywhere.

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You had to know I was gonna say that. [laughs] You're right. Yes. You can run year-round anywhere. It's just, um, you have to kind of think a little bit more about what you're gonna wear. Wear more clothes. That's right.

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Yeah. No, that's a good point, though. So yes. Um-So you've been running for a while. You started when you were a kid.

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Um, we haven't had races in a while, um, but it looks like maybe they're coming back at some point soon. Boston registration happens in a few weeks, which is wild.

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Um, what's, what's been keeping you going the last year or so? My sanity. [laughs] Um, I mean, honestly, like- You're running from your sanity? No, I'm not running from.

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I'm running to hold on to the little bit of sanity- [laughs]... [laughs] that I have left with... You know, I'm sure as so many people listening can agree that have kids.

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You know, I have three kids, and so it's been, uh, exactly a year since everything kinda blew up and the kids were at home,

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learning from home, and suddenly we had to re-, you know, think our whole lives and how we were gonna navigate through all of that, and still helping them, educate them and

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still, you know, doing our work and, and, and all of that. So it's, uh... I don't, I, I forgot what I was gonna say, but [laughs] it's been quite the, uh, it's been quite the adventure. Um,

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and what has kept me going? I mean, [sighs] you know, I feel like w-

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through the craziness of everyone being s- locked at home, that was the one thing that we could do is like, you know, for me, I could get out every day and go for a run. Like, I, I knew that wasn't gonna go away.

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Actually, it did go away for a little while. We had some trails that closed here in Cal- California was hit pretty hard.

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Southern California, we h- were hit pretty hard, so we at one point, our beaches were closed, and we had like all of our major trails were closed, which was like... That was crazy.

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Um, but you always had the ability at least to run around your neighborhood this whole time, and so that has been, um, keeping me going. And I mean, yeah, I know, you know, I think, you know, it's interesting because

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with running it's kinda like sometimes you're training because you have this race coming up, and you really wanna be ready for it, be prepared for it, and then there's other times when you're just,

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you're just running to stay fit, to stay happy, just to have your time of meditation, and that's kind of what the past year has been for me.

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I mean, it's like, yeah, I wanna, I definitely wanna keep, you know, a good level of fitness and be ready to jump into a training block when that is, when it's time for that.

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But, um, it's just been nice to be outside, 'cause we spent so much time inside. So that's what's kept me going. And in the meantime, you've also launched a podcast. Is that correct?

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Yes, that is correct. I mean, it's funny because, um,

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you know, being locked in your [laughs] house for a year pretty much or in your little general little, little area of, of your neighborhood and not being able to really go out much really gets the creative juices flowing.

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And for me, I mean, I knew I wanted to start a podcast a while ago. I just, I didn't know what direction I wanted to go or kind of the stories that I wanted to tell.

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And so it's been neat because I suddenly had a little bit of time to, to dedicate to that, and kinda like, "Okay, well, how do we want this to, to go, and

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what do we wanna say, and how do we wanna help our, help people that might be listening?" And so that turned into launching a podcast a few months ago. So we're excited about it.

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And what's been the most surprising part about the podcast? Ooh, um, I would say it's a lot of work. Um, it's a lot of work, probably more than I realized.

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And I say that in the sense that I really love what I do, um, and so it, uh, it d- doesn't bother me, um, because I love it.

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I love talking to the people that we have talked to and the people that we're going to be talking to and the topics. I mean, the, the topic is about running and travel, and so that is, I'm super passionate about that.

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Gerald, my husband, who is my co-host, is, we are both super passionate about that. Um, and it's a lot of work. But, but I think when you, when you do something that you truly love, it suddenly doesn't turn into work.

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It's, it's a passion, and you're just like, "Well, we're gonna get it done no matter what." So it's been a, it's been a journey. It's been really fun so far. What have been...

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Yeah, it's, it's wild just, like, you have no idea what to expect when, when you started and then just sort of learn on the go. What, um, what have been some of the biggest takeaways from, from your guests?

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Oh, that's a good question. Um, I would say it is really interesting

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to talk to runners in a different way, to really, you know, dig into where they live and the trails and the, the roads that they love to run on, and for them to share that.

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It's kind of an intimate, it's a little bit of an intimate piece of information. It's kinda like, "You know, I run here almost every day," or, "I love this trail so much," and,

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you know, maybe not a lot of people run that trail, and suddenly they're kinda sharing it with everybody. And it really does make you want to go to that location and, and do everything that they've shared with you.

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You wanna eat at the same restaurant that they shared and go on that same run. And, um, so yeah, it's just been a really neat experience, and I've taken away a lot.

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I mean, mostly I've taken away, uh, [laughs] I can't wait to get vaccinated and pack our suitcases and, and start traveling to some of these great places. Yes. For sure.

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And do you think you'll do, uh, a live podcast or face-to-face?Yes. We definitely want to. Yeah, we've talked about it. I think it'll be fun to,

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to go live with the show, and, um, it'll be interesting to kind of see what that looks like.

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But, um, for sure we want to travel to all the places, and we've, we're like, now that I'm talking to you, we're like 21 episodes in, so [laughs] we know we have, you know,

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21 places we want to travel to, and somehow we, you know, we'll incorporate that into some sort of a live show at some point. And it'll be a blast. It's really a lot of fun and, and runners are really cool people.

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So everybody you talk to has a great, a great vibe. So it's, it's really, really fun. Um, yeah, the, the ability to travel and do the conversations in person and share, share it that way. I can't wait.

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Um- I know... it's definitely-- So my podcast was, uh, the opposite. I started live and went virtual.

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Um, and the more virtual podcasts I do, the more appreciation I have for the first, uh, it was about 60 episodes that were done face-to-face, and it's just such a different experience.

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Like, w- when we recorded yours, um, we could see each other. I've started testing out video, um, through the platform I record on, but it's still not the same.

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It's like there, you don't have the, like, joking around and, and, you know, small talk beforehand and, you know, walking away afterwards and all this and that.

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So, um, hopefully some changes ahead, uh, once we're all vaccinated and get to fly around the country again. I know. And you know what, Jonathan? I don't think I knew that.

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I didn't know that you started out, um, your podcast with live interviews. That's really fun. Well, so not, not necessarily live, but, but face-to-face. Um, so I- I mean, yeah, yeah, yeah. Face-to-face... what I

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s- yeah, so what I, what I...

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The, the reason that I started my podcast was I was having all these conversations with people already just out of personal curiosity through what I get to do for work, um, in places like Colorado and Arizona and California and Oregon.

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Um, and I realized, I was like, "Hmm, I could, I could share these conversations." And, um, so I was listening to a podcast between Mario Fraoli and Billy Yang, and, um,

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they were talking about, like, starting a podcast, and I forget which one of them said it, but one of them said they were, they were talking ab- this was in, um, I want to say 2018, in the, like, December.

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And they were saying, "Iron sharpens iron." Like, great, there are more podcasters out there. That just requires everyone to, you know, step up their game.

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And that was 2018, and now, you know, so many more people have podcasts, particularly, um, within the last year.

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And so there's, like, so much competition for, um, you know, the hour run that you listen to podcasts on and whatnot. So it just makes everyone

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better, or forces everyone to be better because there are more of us out there. I know. I find myself listening to podcasts...

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It used to be I would just listen to a podcast on a run, and now I'm, like, folding laundry listening to a podcast, doing the dishes [laughs] listening to a podcast. Yeah. You know, doing it, because there's so many.

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You're right, there's so many, and there's so many really good ones, um, out there, and there's so many great stories to be told. So yeah, I think it's, uh... But you're right, it does, it does,

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um, you know, push everyone to, to really bring their A game to, to the platform because there's so, there's so many great ones out there. But yeah. And I love your podcast, Jonathan. Thank you.

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[laughs] And I love yours. Um, so what's, what's the goal with your podcast? What, what's the, what's the mission? So,

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you know, we, we originally started Sweet Run to work with, um, independent boutique hotels to provide a service for their guests, which is simply the best, safest routes to run, um, and to just kind of, you know, give the, the hotel guests a whole run experience.

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Um, and then, you know, the pandemic happened and a lot of things happened, and so we were like, there's, there's other angles,

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there's other ways to kind of get to the audience that we wanna, that we wanna reach, and we're, and we thought, "A podcast is a great way to do this as well."

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Um, so I think the, the overall mission is to, to keep going strong on the podcast to allow

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people access to, to be able to discover these great runs in these beautiful locations directly from the runner, which is the best person to get the information from, as well as, um, continue to work with hotels and, you know, provide their guests with a whole run experience.

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So just the whole travel- You know-... and running wrapped up together. Yeah. I love it. I didn't, I didn't know that. Now all of your questions, uh, about Boston make a whole lot more sense.

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[laughs] Um, do you know, do you know Chris Heisler? So I don't know him personally, but I know that he was the Run Westin concierge for a l- a long time. Yeah. So that was, that was his job.

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His job was to run that program, um, within the Westin Hotels, and, uh, it was basically, you know, a, a micro version of that, or I guess macro if you wanna call it all of Westin Hotels. Um, and so it's super cool.

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It's, like, I've, I, I know him, um, fairly well and I've heard a lot about this program, and unfortunately, he's not with the program anymore. Uh, but it's such a great idea, right?

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Like, what's the best way to explore a new place? Um, sure, you can go for a bike ride, but it's challenging to bring your bike places. You can drive it, but that's boring.

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Um, or you can run it and s- you know, see a f- a new city that way.Um, so I think it's a, it- that's awesome. Um, and then you eat, you eat at all the restaurants that [laughs] that people suggest. [laughs] I know.

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You can literally... Yes. And that's, like, my favorite part of the... one of my favorite parts of the conversation, is talking about all the food. But yeah, you know, I, I, I ta- I'm totally right there with you.

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I mean, I think... I honestly think the worst way you can... And probably people are gonna say, "What?" But I think one of the worst ways you can explore a new place is in your car. Um, and- Right...

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I think, and I know I'm biased because I'm a runner, but I think one of the very best places, or best ways you can explore a place is when you put on your running shoes. And that, for me,

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is, you know, I've, I've had some time to travel, and I feel like the places that I've really have been able to explore and fall in love with have been when we've gone on

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runs throughout that city or town, and I'm like, "Oh yeah, I wanna come back more and explore this place," or, "Oh my gosh, I would've never seen this view if I would've been in my car," you know? And there's...

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You can just go on and on and on. So I really do believe the best way to see a new place is on a run, so. Where did your, where did this desire to travel and explore come from? Ha- have you always been that way? Yeah.

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You know, I've always been kind of a wanderlust type of person. Um, from, you know, just from when I was a li- I mean, I just never had a time in my life when I didn't wanna travel.

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I just remember being a kid, and I loved to read. I was a voracious reader, which I [laughs] I tell my kids that now. I'm like, "You know, you guys have to fall in love with reading."

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I hope that they fall in love with reading as much as I did, because I thought it was the best thing in the world to be able to sit under a tree and get a book, and I would literally pour myself into the book, into the characters.

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I would imagine myself being friends with the characters and living with where they lived, and I'd imagine, like, what it would be to go to that place, and... So I loved reading so much, and that's where it started.

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And then, um, and then, you know, as I got older and I just started traveling and I just was, you know, thinking to myself, "I wanna travel the world. I wanna go to all these places."

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And, um, so I mean, I still have a ton of traveling to do. I've only been just a tiny bit of, I've only seen a tiny bit of the world. But, um, just from the little bit that I've seen, it's like I love

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the cultures of, of these d- of different places, and people, and different languages, and different smells of food, and, um, you know, gorgeous views and, and so I fell in love with that whole.

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And I, I w- literally was like, I could be one of those people who pack up their whole life and go on the road and, like, live like a nomad. [laughs] That would be pretty- Mm... I would love to do that, actually.

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Um, so we'll see. Where would you go first? Oh, that's a good question. Um, oh, man, there's so many places. Um, I think- Or what, what would be the first, what would be the road trip that you would go on?

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So, oh, there's so many places. Oh, my gosh, this is a hard question. Um, I could totally see my- I've always wanted to go to New Zealand.

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And I mean, that just seems like an outdoor paradise, so I would love to just go and then, and just either bike or run throughout that whole country. Um, there's so many parts of Asia that I really wanna explore.

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Um, there's so many parts of South America that I really, really wanna explore. I mean, I w- would love to go to Patagonia. I would love to... Oh, my gosh, there's just so many places.

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I'd love to spend some time in Ecuador. So I could go on and on and on. But, um, yeah, I hope to do that. I hope to be able to, um...

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I'd lo- I'd love to go on the road for a year and just take a year off and travel the world. So we'll see. See if I can talk Gerald into doing that.

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[laughs] My next question was gonna be, what's stopping you, but [laughs] there you go. [laughs] I know. Life, responsibility. Kids and family. [laughs] Yeah, kids, all of that. Um, so I don't know.

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Do you think it's something you'll do, do you think it's something you'll do someday? Yeah, I do. I do. And you know, it's funny because,

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you know, every time I bring up something about travel, Gerald will s- Gerald will say, "Well, that, you know, that's exactly what we're doing with the podcast," or, "Why do you think I'm, like, doing the podcast?"

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Like, he always is like, "Because I know how much you love to travel." He loves to travel, too.

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And so I think we're eventually gonna, like, somehow wrap our whole life around this lifestyle, and who knows where we'll, where we'll end up.

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I'm sure at some point we'll, we'll end up somewhere exotic, and we'll definitely record all of it [laughs] on a podcast episode. [laughs] Nice.

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Well, I can't say I'm in an exotic place, but I definitely recommend to pack up and s- you know, dramatically change things, uh, at least once. No, you're totally doing it, Jonathan.

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I lo- I mean, that is awesome what you have done. Like, you were just like, "I'm going to Colorado," and you packed it up and went, and I, I'm so excited for you. I love following your, your journey over...

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It's really cool, like, all the things that you're doing, and I think I saw you snowmobiling the other day and cross-country skiing and all of that, so it's cool.Yeah, there's something about being outdoors that, um, I wish more people would experience.

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I mean, most of the people, you know, listening to this podcast probably run. Um, and if not, hello. Uh- [laughs]... give running a try. It's pretty awesome. [laughs] Hello.

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Welcome to the world of running on- Cheers to-... For the Long Run podcast. Yeah. How did, how did you find this podcast- [laughs]... if you don't run? Um, uh, seriously, if, if that applies to you, I'm curious.

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Please send me a message. [laughs] Um- Yeah... but what I was saying is, like, being out here put me in a totally different mental space than I've ever been before.

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Um, my grandma just commented on a Facebook post, like, "Do you ever go inside?" [laughs] It's like, "Yes, I, I- [laughs]... I'm still working, and I'm still..." You know.

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Uh, my reply to her was, "Sometimes I go inside at night." [laughs] But, um- [laughs] But yeah, it's, it's, it's, you know, all these people talk about nature as therapy. Again, I don't think nature is therapy.

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I think it's therapeutic.

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Um, but there's so much to be said for even just spending a, like, 30 minutes outside or going for a walk or, you know, it doesn't have to be next to 14,000-foot mountains, um, like [laughs], like, I have the pleasure of, of doing at the moment.

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But even just in your park or whatever, um, is, uh... I mean, there's, there's science that validates this. It, it actually is true that it makes you a happier and healthier person.

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Um, so if, if it's not part of your routine outside of running, I definitely, uh, suggest giving it a try. I could not agree with you more. I mean, I-- there's definitely been

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times during this pandemic where, you know, say for instance I had a day off. So I usually run... I mean, before I got injured I was running six days a week. But, so say for instance there's a day that I wasn't running,

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uh, we usually are outside. But for whatever reason, this one particular day I didn't go outside. I don't think I was feeling good, or one of the kids wasn't feeling good, or something like that, and I didn't go outside.

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And I can't tell you how much my mood changed. It was just like

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h- I couldn't understand, like, how people, at least t- you know, to be able to go for a walk or to go outside, it really does change your whole mood and kind of the way you navigate through your day.

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And I can't imagine, you know, not having the outlet of breathing fresh air and being outside. I mean, it, there really is nothing like it, so. For sure. You know. Let's talk about that injury.

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Uh, what happened and, and when? Yeah. So I had knee surgery in the end of October.

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Um, and it was, it was an interesting injury in the sense that, like, it wasn't like, oh, I did something and then I hurt something and I had to have surgery to fix it.

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It was kind of like one of those mystery type of things where we don't know what caused it. It was actually a cyst in my knee.

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And it didn't hurt while I was running or training, so that didn't, it didn't affect me running. But at night when I would go to sleep, I would be in an en- in an enormous amount of pain,

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and it just made my whole life [laughs] pretty miserable. I mean, you have to sleep. I mean, as athletes we know, and as human beings we have to sleep. And so that was really tough for me.

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So we tried a d- bunch of different... not a bunch of different things, but I tried one particular, um, method of trying to solve it with my doctor, which meant just draining the cyst.

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So I would get it drained, and then it was better. And so we were just hoping that that would cure it, it wouldn't come back. And so it then, it came back, so we drained it again, and it came back.

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And then it was like, okay, I can't keep doing this.

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And also the anticipation of like, oh my gosh, am I gonna be in the middle of a training block and it's gonna come back, and, like, I won't be able to sleep, and all these things.

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So, um, so that's when I had a talk with my doctor, and he's like, "You know, we can get rid of this really quickly.

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We can just go in, surgically remove it, check to make sure everything is good with the rest of the knee, and which I think it is." You know,

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once I, you know, he kind of really looked at my MRI and was like, "You know, your meniscus is fine, and,

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um, your ACL is fine, so let's just go in and take this, um, cyst out and have you go [laughs] on about your life." And I'm like, "Done." So we had it, uh, removed at the end of October and, and it was great.

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I mean, in the sense of, like, it was the best type of surgery that I could have had because I was able to be weight bearing after the first couple of days. Um, so I was on my feet, and I was able in, like...

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Oh my gosh, I wanna say a week I was on the bike. And so it's been really, you know, it was the best case scenario. I was able to, to keep moving and on the bike. And, and then maybe a month later I was in the pool.

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And so, um, and then I was running again probably two months later. So it, it's not been bad at all. It's been a great road back to getting fit. Trying to get fit again is what I'm working on.

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And, um, I'm super excited about where I am right now though. I wanna talk about that because I was always the runner who was like, "Run. You wanna be a better runner? Run. Run more. Run more." And I still believe that.

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I mean, hey, if you wanna be good at your craft, you gotta work at it. You've gotta run more if you wanna be a better runner. But

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I do believe heavily in the power of cross-training, and really incorporating that into your running, and how much it can really make you stronger. And so it's really cool now.

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Like, when I go on my runs, I honestly feelLike a panther. [laughs] I know that's kinda crazy to say that, but I feel this, like, strength that I've never felt before.

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Like, when I f- I can feel when my foot hits the, the ground or the dirt, I just feel like this extra spring in my step, and I feel really powerful from all the weights I've been doing and all the pool running and all of the s- you know, tons of biking.

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Um, and now incorporating the running, and, and I'm starting to do some workouts now. So I'm just, like, I'm pretty darn happy with where I am right now. I love that.

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There's a, the saying I like to share, which is sometimes you have to pull back to spring forward, and it feels like you did exactly that. Yeah.

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Yeah, you know, it's funny because this is the second surgery that I've had on the same knee, so, um, needless to say, when I realized that I had to have it done, I was like, "Oh." You know?

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[laughs] I'm like, "I don't wanna have another surgery on the same knee, and what is that, like, ultimately gonna look like?" But, you know, knock on wood, I've been really lucky, and, um, yeah, I agree with you.

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I feel like I'm, I'm- I've had to, like, pull back, and now the spring forward is gonna be pretty sweet. So we'll see what happens. What are you springing forward towards? To be the very fastest version of myself.

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I, um, I just wanna be strong and run faster than I've ever run before and kinda just see what exactly I'm capable of, and have a whole lot of fun doing it. Yeah. What are the, um,

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what are the th- the specific ways you'll, you'll get there? So I'm working with my coach. Jared Carson is my coach, and I- I'm digging his philosophy. He's like, "You know, Natalie, we've gotta get you super strong.

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That's gonna help you run even faster." And, um, and like I said, I'm just, I'm feeling it. I'm feeling, I'm feeling good about that, and so we're d- we're definitely taking that path.

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Um, and as far as, like, the weights are concerned, we're not focusing so much on the upper body as we are on the lower body. Um,

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and so I feel like I've got all these different elements being thrown at me, and it's kinda like shaking things up. Like, I haven't really trained like this before.

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Um, so we're g- we're gonna go, we're gonna go down that path. Um, and then we'll... You know, we're starting to put in more miles, slowly but surely, and more, um...

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I'm starting to do some workouts, just a few little short workouts. We're gonna focus on speed.

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I feel like I, in the past, I've always focused on distance, distance, distance, with some speed definitely, but now speed's gonna be at the forefront, and we're gonna really focus on that.

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Um, and then we'll see what happens. I'm just excited. Um, you know, I, I really love running, so I'm, I'm open. I'm like, let's try something new. Let's do some new stuff and kinda see where it all shakes out.

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That's awesome. Is gratitude a piece of that? It's something I like to talk about on here, particularly with people who have been injured or who have taken some time off. Oh my gosh, yes. 100%. How so? I mean,

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gosh, anybody that's been injured or has any sort of injury I think can totally relate to this. But I, I just, my gosh, I feel so grateful.

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I think, um, I think there's, like, you know, you kinda put it into two different categories.

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So you have your minor injuries where it's like, oh, you know, I have some shin splints, or I've got this or that, you know, little thing that's niggling or bothering me.

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And then you have major injuries where, you know, the only way to cure it is through surgery. Um, and those are pretty serious 'cause you don't know what's gonna happen on the other side.

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You don't know, you know, exactly how it's gonna heal, how you're gonna feel, how is it gonna affect you. And I think when you get past that and you realize you're gonna be totally fine, if not better than ever,

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there's n... I mean, I can't imagine not feeling so grateful. Grateful for my body, and, like, kind of like, "Hey, thanks. Thanks for being so awesome," and, like,

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you know, total- [laughs] totally letting me beat up on you in a sense. Because as an endurance athlete, you know, we put our bodies through so much.

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I mean, we're asking our bodies to, like, "Hey, can you run 80 miles a week, 70 miles a week, and can you do this, and can you do that, and, um, can you run really hard right now?" And I mean, there's...

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We ask so much of our bodies, and I think, um, I think we have to, you know, we have to talk to, talk to ourselves and say, "Hey, you know, thank you so much for doing this for me. I know I'm asking probably...

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I'm, I'm asking more than the average person, and I appreciate it." So yeah, I, I'm very, very grateful.

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Um, yeah, I think it's, it's super powerful, and particularly, like, in the, in the moment when things are hard, when you are running, um, it makes it not easier, but more manageable. So

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I'm here at 10,000 feet, and my run today was 10 miles easy, which is a misnomer at this elevation- [laughs]... um, and hill situation.

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And so I was, I don't know, like, three or four miles in, like, in the middle of, like, a two-mile, like, 400-foot climb or 500-foot climb, and I'm like, "Damn, how cool is it that we get to do this?"

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And I was just thinking back to last year when I took six weeks off for a, an injury, and I was like, man, how much would Jonathan of February 2020 kill to, to be doing this right now?

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Or, or how m- how much would he, like, yearn for this, like, wow, this sucks in the moment type feeling? Um, and I think that that, thatComponent is incredibly powerful. I mean, it, it got me up the hill [laughs]

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Um, and then down the hill. Um, and I think that I, I never had that perspective in the past. It was always just like, "Oh, this sucks." But it's like it...

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That pressure is a privilege, and it's a privilege that we get to do this. It's... Nobody's forcing us to run, um, and I think a lot of us need that reminder sometimes.

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Like, if, if you, if you're not having fun, don't do it. Oh my gosh. I could not agree with you more. I was just- I just wrote a post about that the other day, and I was like,

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"If you're not having fun on your runs, you need to go back to the drawing board and, like, reevaluate what's going on, and how can you change it?" Because you're right, you know, it's not our job to run.

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No one's forcing us to run. Um, at the end of the day, no one really cares [laughs] if we go on a run or not. Yeah. You know what I mean? Um, it...

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This is all for our self-satisfaction and for our personal goals and for things that we wanna do with our life. And so if you're not having fun,

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first of all, y- running is so much fun, so if you're not having fun, there's some ways, you know, change it. Try, try to, you know, change it. Go on a new route, or,

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I don't know, maybe change the times that you're running. Maybe it's putting so much pressure on your normal life.

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I think a lot of times we put a lot of pressure because we, we're like, "I have to get this run in, because I'm...

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I have to train for this marathon, or I have to train for this race, and this is the only time I can do it." And sometimes it can cause a lot of pressure un- you know, uh, unnecessarily.

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Like, we don't have to put that kind of pressure on ourselves. Um, so yeah. I think it's important to, to have a lot of fun with it. And I do think, too, with injury, [smacks lips]

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not that I'm wishing injury on anybody, [laughs] but I do think it's a good reality check sometimes. 'Cause I do... I, I feel like sometimes I'm going along with my running, you know.

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S- there's been times where I've gone years without an injury, and it's kinda like, okay, you know.

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You don't mean to take it for granted, but you're like, "Oh, I have to go on this, you know, 10-mile run today, and then I have to, like, do my long run on the weekend."

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And you're kind of, like, trying to figure out your schedule and, and a little bit lamenting about it, like, "Oh, man, I have to do all this."

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And then you get injured and you're like, "Oh my gosh," like, "What was I ever, like, thinking about?" What I would do. Yeah. [laughs] Yeah. What, what would I do to have that, [clears throat] have that moment again?

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Like, I'll never complain about going on a run again, or I'll never, like, you know, say anything about it except it's the best thing ever. Definitely. Yeah.

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So you said something, um, that I, I wanted to, um, sort of add to. You said, "We're not professional athletes, so we should be having fun."

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I spoke with a professional athlete who said that, you know, she wouldn't still be doing this if she weren't having fun, um, on a podcast I did with Ayesha Pratt Lear.

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Um, she's 30 years old, and she's like, "I've been in the sport for 15-plus years, and, and I wouldn't be doing this if I didn't enjoy it."

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Like, she's, she's living that, that so much so that [laughs] the first time that we, um, scheduled our podcast, um, Corey Magee had run an 800-meter PR in practice, and they went out for mimosas to celebrate.

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[laughs] And so- Oh... she, like, couldn't, she couldn't make the podcast because she was out, you know, drinking mimosas. [laughs] And I was like, "That's fucking awesome." [laughs] Like, that's what it should be.

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Like, we should be... Like, we're not robots. They're not robots. Um, we, we are only... We only get these great performances when we feel relaxed and smooth and sort of at peace.

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And if fun and play is a big component of that, um, you can be successful no matter what. And it doesn't matter what the time on the clock is or whatever. Like, you can still go have those mimosas.

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Um, but I just thought it was, it was so perfect that here she is, a professional athlete now for Puma, and, um, a core tenet of her training is, is fun. And if you look at Team Boss, like, they're having more...

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The, you know, the most fun out of anyone, it seems. Oh my gosh. I just wanna go and, like, hang out with Team Boss for the day. [laughs] For a weekend. I mean, they live in...

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You know, they're in Colorado in this beautiful location, and they j- they... You're right. They seem like they're having a ton of fun. Um, they all seem like they get along so well.

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And, you know, I really do think that... I think you can take that attitude with any ca- career that you have.

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I mean, for some people, for some lucky people, they get to have running as their career, and they get paid to do it.

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Um, and whether it's running or whatever you choose to do in your life, you should have fun, or you should really enjoy doing it. And is it gonna be fun every single moment of every single day? No, of course not.

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But I think overall, if you're like, "This is so fulfilling to me," or, "I'm having such a good time," then you know you're in the right career.

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And if you're waking up every day and you're dreading it, then I think you know you need to make some changes. So yeah. Yeah, I totally agree. I think it's, uh, it, it can't be overstated. Um, so talk to me about...

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So I know we talked about your, your spring forward, uh, approach to this year and, you know, getting as fast as you can be, but do you have any, do you have any distances that you're, that you're eyeing?

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Yeah, I mean, I, I definitely wanna be, um, faster in the marathon. I mean, I have a long way to go, um, as far as what I'd like to run in the marathon. And

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I think that I'm-- in order to get there, I'm gonna have to set a lot of PRs [laughs] in some shorter distances along the way, and so I'm excited about that, 'cause I just...

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I think I was always focused on, like, my marathon time, my marathon time, and I didn't really think closely about-My 5K time or not too much about my 10K time, probably a little bit more about my half marathon time.

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But I, I, you know, I'd love to get really, you know, as fast as I possibly can in the 5K and the 10K, and I know that'll all translate into being faster in the marathon. And [lips smack]

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you know, I think let's, let's just, let's just go there about age. So I'm in my 40s. Um, we live in a world where age is-- can be the center of a lot of conversations.

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I think that people, um, tend to limit themselves and what they can do when they reach a certain age or approach a certain age.

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And I think for the decade of the 40s, um, there's a lot of dread and a lot of whispers and a lot of, "I'm getting old," um, before we reach that decade. And [lips smack] I'm just finding that, like,

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more than ever, I'm excited about this decade. I'm excited about the fact that there's so much possibility. Like, for me personally,

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for me personally, I haven't been in a pos- I wasn't in a position, for whatever reason, I think it was just because I never thought that I could run fast, or it never really crossed my mind. It wasn't like, "I can't."

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I just never thought about it. Um, after college, like I, you know, I got injured in college, um, and then I didn't think about, like, taking running to, like, a bigger level.

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I just knew I wanted to run a marathon, and that was it. But anyway, my point is, is that, um, I'm just really excited about where I am in my life right now. I'm excited about being in my 40s.

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I'm excited to see what I can do in my 40s, and I hope that that'll, that will inspire other women and other people along the way. Like, you know what? We're not old.

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There's so much left to do, and it's gonna be so cool. And, like, go for it, you know? And don't stand in your own way.

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And by standing in your own way, and you can stand in your own way by saying, "Oh my gosh, I'm getting old. I'm old. I'm old. I'm too old to do this." I mean, I've definitely had people [lips smack]

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when you tell them like, "Okay, I had knee surgery," or whatever, and then they have that look of dread in their eyes because they're like, "Ugh."

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I-- they know that I'm in my 40s, and it's kinda like, oh, the hips and the knees and, you know, all this stuff, and they, they've had their share of injury or whatever. And most of the people are not runners.

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But they have all of these preconceived notions like, "Running is bad for your knees," and, "Oh my gosh, I can't believe you're doing this," and, "How are you gonna recover?"

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And, and all this stuff, and there's so many, um, preconceived notions about running well in your 40s. And so I'm just excited to see what in the heck my body can do. So I'm ready.

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I love it. So, uh, more than fifty percent of my audience is in the thirty to forty-five range, so I'm guessing that this, this part of the conversation is going to apply to a lot of people.

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Um, so maybe let's dive a little further into it.

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How did you get to that place where you're not dreading this process that we all go through, but instead looking forward to it and, and, um, continuing to be excited about, about the challenges?

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[lips smack] You know, that's a really good question that I've often thought about, only because, um, I find myself hearing it from people so much more, um, in the space of running about...

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And I know age is a big deal because if you're a professional runner and you've been running since you were thirteen years old, and, you know, by the time you're thirty-seven years old, you've got a lot of miles under your belt.

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And, and so I get that, especially running at a super high level, um, at some point, your body's gonna break down. And but for those of us who are not professional runners, um, and for me, like,

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you know, after college, I wanted to start, you know, I started running marathons, but I didn't, I wasn't running at a high level. And, you know, when I was in my 30s and having kids, and I had my last kid at, at age 40,

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I wasn't thinking about running at a high level. It wasn't until, you know, I was like forty-- I was just writing about this too, but [lips smack]

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I had just-- I was just about to turn forty-two years old that I was like, "I'm gonna hire a coach, and I'm gonna see what I can really do.

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I've been kinda, like, going along on my own, running marathons here and there and having kids and all this stuff, but I, I think there's a lot of potential there that I haven't tapped into in a really long time.

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And who's to say that I'm finished yet?" Um, and so [sighs] I don't know what gave me that confidence. I think some of it has to do with, like, my parents.

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I think mostly my mom 'cause I think I, I saw her, not I think, but I saw her do a lot of cool stuff. Like, I saw her c- climb Half Dome when she was in her 50s.

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Um, I actually wasn't there physically, but, like, she went off and did this, like, huge camping trip with these people that she didn't know and, like, climbed Half Dome and did all this crazy stuff at, like, in her mid-50s.

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And I was like, "That is so cool." And she never once said, "I'm too old to do this," or, "What am I doing?" Like, she just kinda, like, has always been the kind of person that's, like, really just dived into life.

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She's like, "Oh, I wanna climb that, I wanna climb that mountain.

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I'm gonna do it," or, "I wanna join this hiking group," or, "I wanna, you know, run this race," or whatever it is she wants to do, she would just do, and she never talked about like, "Oh my gosh, I'm too old to do this."

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And so that's kind of how I've always grown up with that mentality.

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We never talked about age being a barrier.And I really think that's been a big influence on what I think I can do in my, in my life now, and I think, um,

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I think a lot has to be said about mentally preparing yourself for challenges.

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Because if you're already going into it saying, "Well, I'm too old," or, "Well, this might happen," or, "I wonder if I'm strong enough to do this because I'm too old," you're already kind of telling yourself that it's not gonna be possible.

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But if you go into it thinking like, "Yeah, this is gonna be great," or, "I can do this, and I can do that, and I'm really strong, and this is how I'm gonna prepare, and I'm at least gonna try," then you have a whole lot...

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You have a whole... You're already giving yourself a better outcome if you have that type of attitude. So that's-- I'm just, um, I feel like [laughs] I've been kind of on my soapbox lately about that.

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But I just think that, um... And I think that there, it's a really great time in distance running right now.

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I mean, you can, you can really see that there are a lot of people out there in their late 30s and 40s and beyond. I mean, there was just a 62-year-old woman who ran, oh my gosh, she ran like a 2:52.

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She just broke the record, I believe that's correct- Wow... for her age group. Um, did you see that, Jonathan? No, I d- I didn't see that. Yeah. It was an Asian woman. I think she's in-- she lives in Japan.

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And, um, yeah, she's like 60 years old and just ran a 2:52 marathon. So I mean, that right there is showing you- That's awesome. Yeah. It's so awesome, so. Yeah, I think it's, it's, um,

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it's-- So I, I have my eye on it from the trail world, and anytime I go to a trail race, I'm like the youngest person by... I mean, not the youngest person, but like the average age is probably 20 years older than me.

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And I think a lot of that is, um,

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like to continue to, to run trail and ultra races, you need to have made a whole bunch of mistakes in [chuckles] your younger years so that you can, you know, overcome them and not make the same stupid mistakes that I've been making for the last 10 years.

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[chuckles] Um, and, you know, not make those mistakes when you're in your 30s and 40s and 50s and 60s. But it's so cool to see people who are 50, 60, 70 out doing these things.

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And I was in, um, Ouray, Colorado, a few weeks ago, um, southwestern part of the state, uh, ish, and, um, it's, I don't know, 8,000 feet. And,

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uh, there's a road called, uh, Million Dollar Highway, and the views are just spectacular, but it's, it's an absolute, like, grind to get up out of this little town that's tucked away in between all the mountains.

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And so the first, I don't know, the first like mile out of town is like probably a 300 or 400-plus foot climb. And I was out driving further away, and I, I saw two different people, man and a woman,

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probably 75 years old each. Um, not together, but just, like, running separately, and [chuckles] they're, they're, you know, 75 years old, at 8,000 feet, running uphill. And I'm like,

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"Yes, I want that. I want to do that." That's like, that's my goal, uh, to get there.

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And the only way to do that is just to make, um, you know, continue to enjoy it and do the right things and be healthy and happy and, and stuff along the way.

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But it's like we're, you know, I'm 30, you're in your 40s, like those people are 30 to 40... They're like twice our age- I know... potentially, and they're still doing it.

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And they're still doing-- They're not like, just, like, jogging 5Ks. They're, [chuckles] they're, they're climbing mountains at 8,000 feet. It's like that's so cool. That is freaking so cool.

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That's exactly what I wanna do. [laughs] That's exactly what I wanna do. I wanna be like that, like, 85-year-old, 90-year-old woman who's, like, climbing some mountain or running some ultra race.

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[chuckles] I mean, right? I mean, that's so... I mean, like, why, why do I wanna sit at home and, like, lament about being old with my grand- great-grandchildren around me?

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I want them all to, to come with me and, like, I'm gonna be kicking their butt up the h- up the mountain, you know? [laughs] Yes, absolutely. So, um,

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s- similarly, but maybe very different, what would you tell Natalie of 20 years ago? Oh, gosh, 20 years ago. Okay. Um, have to think about that for a minute.

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I think I would tell her, "What are you waiting for? Don't limit yourself. Go for it now." That's what I would say.

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And I say that with a little bit of a caveat because when I say that, it almost sounds like, like I knew that I should be trying to, like, you know, run fast or, or accomplish all these goals, and for some reason, I was holding myself back, and that wasn't the case, um, 20 years ago.

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I was-- I didn't even-- I wasn't even thinking about... I was thinking about running marathons for fun, and I didn't think about the serious part of it.

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But if I was, say, for instance, if I was thinking about that, I would say to myself, "Don't limit yourself. Go for it now and see what happens, and give it everything that you have, and just don't hold back."

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Um, that's, that's what I would tell myself 20 years ago. Um, that being said, also, because I didn't tell myself that 20 years ago, I'm telling myself that now. Like, now is the time, so get your butt up and go for it.

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[laughs] Oh, I love it. I think that's a good place to wrap today. Um, so if we wanna follow you on your adventure of just going for it, uh, where can we find you? Thank you so much for having me, Jonathan.

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This has been awesome. Um, so you guys can follow me @natrunsfar on all social media, and, uh, and @sweetrun, our podcast, the Sweet Run podcast. You can follow us on social media @sweetrun. Awesome.

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Thanks so much, and we'll see you out there hopefully on a mountain or in Southern California on a mountain perhaps, uh, sometime soon. [upbeat music] Yep, I love it. Let's go for a run sometime soon. Sounds good. Bye.

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All right. Thanks. That's it for today's episode. Like many long runs, it's sad when it has to end. I hope you join in next time on For The Long Run, and in the meantime, happy trails.

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If you enjoyed this episode, it would mean a lot to me if you shared it so that others can find it and enjoy it too.

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[upbeat music]