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[upbeat music] Welcome to For The Long Run, the podcast exploring the why behind what keeps runners running long, strong, and motivated.

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I'm your host, Jonathan Levitt. Through personal and professional connections in the running world, I have the privilege of getting to know some amazing athletes.

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I've always been fascinated by the psychological aspect of running, and this podcast is aimed at exploring this and much more. I hope you enjoy.

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This episode is brought to you by a new group coaching program that I launch with my friend Melissa, an RRCA-certified coach and 12-time marathoner. Are you struggling with motivation or consistency?

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Not sure when to run or when to rest? What about all the options for virtual racing? We're here to help. Kicking off July 20th, our program is focused on a virtual fall race.

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For $37 a month, which is $149 total, you'll get giveaways, swag, and preferred pricing from some of our favorite tools and fuels, as well as monthly Zoom calls and access to a sports dietician for all of your nutrition-related questions.

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You'll get a 16-week program with two skill levels available, leading into a race day experience with as much of a community vibe as possible in the age of COVID. Check the link in the show notes for more details.

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America leads the world in medicine development. It matters. We get new medicines first nearly three years faster.

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Five million Americans go to work because we make medicines here at home, and not relying on other countries keeps us safe. But China is racing to overtake us. Will we let them, or will we choose to stay ahead?

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When America leads, America cures. Let's tell Washington to keep us in the lead. Learn how at AmericaCures.com. Paid for by PhRMA. Welcome back. Today, I have Heather Kaplan joining me on the podcast.

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Uh, Heather, thanks for, uh, thanks for jumping on today. Yeah. I'm glad we could make this happen. For sure. So first question is, is often one of the hardest. Who is Heather? Oh, God.

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[laughs] Um, that is a hard question. Um, let's see. I have many identities. It just depends on when you catch me which one I'll say first.

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At the, at the moment, I am a mom of two little kiddos, so that feels like the first thing that comes to mind, 'cause I'm on maternity leave right now, sort of.

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I mean, I'm recording this, so clearly things are happening, but- [laughs]...

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um, I'm a mom of two little kiddos, I'm a dietician, I'm a runner, obviously, which is why we're talking, and, um, a human who's interested in having good conversations with other humans. That, that is the, the,

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th- that's exactly it. I love it. [laughs] Um, so, so let's, let's start first with the running side, um, since this is a running podcast after all. Um, what got you, what got you into running?

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I started running mostly because I had to for soccer in high school. I think a lot of people actually identify that way.

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People, uh, I would say those of us who actually enjoy distance [laughs] running now, um, but didn't at the time. I started as a soccer player, and then in college, um, just kinda turned to running as an easy,

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relatively low-cost form of exercise, and a way to kind of explore my new surroundings. And my senior year of college was when I did my first race, so to speak. I did a 5K on campus.

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They did, like, the same course for 100 5Ks a year. Um, so you just ran the same loop every time.

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And then I convinced one of my roommates to run a half-marathon with me, because she had run a marathon earlier in our school year, which I thought was insane.

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And [laughs] I was like, "Well, I'm not really into that whole thing, but I think I could do half of it."

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So she obliged, and we did a race together in the spring semester of my senior year, and that kinda kicked off my interest in running as it exists today, which is, you know, doing races here and there for fun, using running as a way to challenge myself and meet new people and be part of a community, and currently [laughs] an outlet for spending some time alone, uh, with my thoughts or with a podcast, 'cause that's kind of the only time I get to do that.

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And how has your running changed in 2020? Well, uh, I have run maybe twice this year. [laughs] So- [laughs]...

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um, I had my son, my second son, about a month ago, a little over a month ago, and I ran, I think, up until about 27 or 28 weeks of pregnancy, which would've been, like, the end of January, and I haven't run a mile or even a tenth of a mile since.

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So, um, 2020- What's that like? [laughs] Uh, well, it's the second time that I've taken this break, so I think this time it's a little bit easier.

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Um, and to be honest, when, at least I'll speak from my own experience, when you're that pregnant and it starts to feel that bad, there's, it's just kind of a no-brainer.

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I mean, you get to a point, hopefully as a runner, where you're able to listen to your body and heed the signs that it's giving you, and for me, that was pretty clear. Like, this doesn't feel good anymore.

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So, um, short of completely obliterating my pelvic floor, I [laughs] decided to just stop running. And I was able to do a lot of other movements, so I think that kept me kind of active and happy and content in that way.

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Um, it wasn't like I had to stop movement altogether, but just running didn't feel good. And again, being my second time around, I have more realistic expectations and plans to get back into running.

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And for me, I am gonna wait until about 10 to 12 weeks postpartum and do some pelvic floor physical therapy.

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And I've eased back in with some yoga and a little bit of strength, but mostly just body weight stuff right now. Cool.

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What goals do you have on the running side for maybe 2021 and beyond?Yeah, I would love to do some shorter stuff later this year if anything actually opens back up again.

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I was joking with someone a while ago, like, "This is a great year for me to not be running [laughs] 'cause nothing's happening anyway." So- Yeah...

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um, last fall when I was, I knew I was pregnant and I wasn't really running that much, I had a huge marathon itch, which I haven't had in a few years. I haven't run a marathon since 2016.

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So last fall, just kinda watching all the races, and the weather was amazing here in this area, and I just was like, "Ugh, I can't wait to run a marathon," and then

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this spring, knowing I'd take time off and everything else that happened in the world with the pandemic was like, "Huh, this is actually a great time to be on the sidelines 'cause no one's doing anything anyways," so, [laughs] um, but- Yeah,

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the, the timing is interesting. I've had about four false starts so far this year- [laughs]...

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due to, like, injury issues, and I, I've finally figured it out, um, or my, my coach and my chiropractor have finally figured out. My coach figured it out from [laughs] looking at my Instagram photos- Oh my gosh...

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and my, my chiropractor figured it out from, um, watching how I move. Yeah. Uh, so I guess similar thing. Um, and yeah, like, I wanted to run a marathon in the spring, but I haven't run more than,

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uh, I haven't run more than 10 miles since, um, like, early January, and like, that was, that [laughs] feels like forever ago. So- Yeah... yes, right there, right there with you on- [laughs]...

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the, the timing being, um, interesting and, and I guess not, not the worst. Yeah.

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I mean, I would, I would probably be watching spring races with a little bit of envy, but, you know, I was 40 weeks pregnant, so not that much- [laughs]... envy 'cause I'm like, "How unrealistic." Um- For sure...

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and I, even, even if things were normal right now, I would still have, I wouldn't have been planning to do anything beyond probably 10 miles until early next year. So I would love to run a marathon next year.

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Um, probably not gonna do it until the fall, but- Mm-hmm... I'll identify, like, a half in the spring if those are happening again, and tackle some shorter distances and just have fun with that.

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I mean, the beauty of taking a break, whether you wanted to or not, is that when you get back into it, all of the progress feels pretty exciting. So starting- Totally... from s- square one is kinda refreshing sometimes.

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Do you ever, like, reset your watch and, and, you know, you get those reminders that, oh, fastest mile- Yeah. [laughs]... or fastest 5K? I- [laughs] Yeah.

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I will say that as a, as a longtime Garmin owner, I know very little about how to actually work with those things- [laughs]... even though I [laughs] have always, I've had one for such a long time.

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Um, but the last, the, the one that I have now, I think I got it as a gift in 2017, which was when I was pregnant with Casey, my first son. And it was probably the summer, so I was pregnant already.

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That's when my birthday is, so I'm assuming it was a birthday gift. And then I didn't really do much until after he was born, and so all of the, you know, the- [laughs]...

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records and the PRs were, like, totally clear 'cause I hadn't really used it that much. Right.

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So that was kinda fun 'cause, like, even though, you know, fastest mile, fastest 5K, et cetera, like, weren't true for me lifetime-wise- Right...

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it was true for the first time in a while, so that was a little more exciting than it would've been otherwise. Yeah, it's fun.

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I, in 2017, I got a new watch as well, and, um, it, it, it happened to be at the same time I was coming back from injury, so, um, similar, similar timeframe and it was, uh, it was fun.

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Uh, I'm, uh, like you said, not lifetime PRs, but- Yeah... um, nice to get that, um, hey, fastest, [laughs] fastest in a while. So- Fastest in, like, six months or so. Yeah. Exactly.

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So for those listening, uh, you may notice that Heather's audio quality is a little better than most.

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[laughs] Um, Heather is a, a fellow podcaster, and, uh, host of the RD Real Talk podcast, uh, as well as co-founder of the Lane Nine Project. Um, do you wanna talk a little bit about, um, first the, the podcast? Sure.

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I started the podcast in 2017, and, um, if you listen to the s- some of those early episodes, the p- audio quality would be- [laughs]... really terrible. So, [laughs]

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uh, we all learn as we go, and I've been doing it almost weekly since then. As you know, that's quite a large task- Yes... and sometimes easier than others.

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Um, and we talk about, I talk to fellow dieticians most of the time, and we talk about issues related to nutrition, um, news in the healthcare world, and I kinda bleed that into a lot of social justice issues, and what is known as the anti-diet movement, which, um, may be a new language to some people listening, but probably well-known to others.

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And, um, just try to make it relevant to fellow practitioners who are learning in this space, but also it's always been a way for me to sort of network, if we're being, like, really professional about it, but mostly just, like, an excuse to have conversations with people that I wanna learn stuff from.

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[laughs] So- Definitely... um, has served me well in that sense. Cool. We've talked a lot about nutrition communication, and it's something that I clearly have a lot to learn, um, as do most of us using social media.

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But I'm particularly interested, given what's going on, um, in today's society, specific to coronavirus- Mm-hmm...

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um, and I'd love your, I'd love your take on, like, how do we communicate that health is more important than ever for, uh, survival?

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I mean, th- to put it, to put it simply, there's plenty of research linking, um,

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you know, some of these metrics around health to-How you might be impacted by something like, you know, an upper respiratory infection like coronavirus. Yeah.

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It's really tricky when we're talking about something that has our collective baseline anxiety like 10 notches higher than it normally- Right... would be, right? So the [laughs]

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there are so many thoughts here [laughs] but- [laughs] Um, I will s- I'll kind of start- We have time. [laughs] Yeah. I'll start with some of my observations at the beginning of the pandemic, which was that

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what happens a lot of times with nutrition communication in the mainstream media is that whether it be journalists, practitioners, researchers, whomever kind of has the idea to post something or write something, they're generally preying on those anxieties.

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They're capitalizing on a vulnerable time when we know that there's not much we can control, right?

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So we could have already contracted the virus, and we don't know who we got it from, or how we got it, or how bad it's gonna impact us, et cetera. And

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there's so much that we can't control and so much, especially in this experience, that we don't even know about the virus, right?

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And all of those things are really scary, and our brain is naturally going to grasp onto something that feels controllable. And so in the mainstream health media, those two things are often weight and food.

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Sometimes exercise, but, you know, we see less of the kind of shaming or you should be doing this type language around movement because movement is so different for everyone.

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And nutrition really should be, but we boil it down into really, really simplistic terms, and oftentimes what you'll see, again in sort of mainstream media, is, well, if you eat this, it will, quote, "boost your immune s- immune system," or if you eat this it will, quote, "save you from having a bad vers- or a bad reaction to the virus or a bad, um, outcome from the virus," you know?

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And it's intoxicating to think that we might have that much control over our bodies and our response.

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And unfortunately, when we really peel back a lot of the layers, and this has been true with coronavirus, what we see is that

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some people who have this long list of risk factors that have been identified based on what we know so far, which again is very little, have a really mild reaction to the virus despite the odds, right?

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And then some people who should be, quote-unquote, "healthy" by most health standards and measures and are doing all the, quote, "right things" have a really terrible reaction to the virus and are in the ICU for weeks on end and on a ventilator, et cetera.

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And so I think what is hard for us as humans to grasp is, like, we don't actually have that much [laughs] control over our health outcomes. Those are... There is certainly some. I don't mean to, like, wash it all away.

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Um, but again, I think that most of the communications we see are preying on some of those vulner- vulnerabilities and anxieties, sometimes intentional, sometimes not.

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And it's just easy to grasp onto that and to want to be able to control something. And I'm, I'm not saying that, that there's anything inherently wrong with that. I think we all identify with it on some level.

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Um, and I certainly am here for the importance of nutrition, but I don't agree with painting it and communicating it as a solution or a cure for mostly anything.

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[laughs] Like, I can't think of anything that it's a real, actual cure for. Um, and again, there are things we can do that can help us, but

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it's not an, it's not the end all, be all, and it's not the thing that's going to

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create this shield around us that protects us from any harm or, or health disparities or health dis- you know, d- chronic diseases or anything like that.

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So, um, it's hard for me to con- [laughs] condense my thoughts on that into one answer. [laughs] But I hope that that was sort of understandable. Yeah. And so this, this

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discussion, I think it started or continued around a prior podcast that I was having with, uh, that I, that I did with, um, Caitlin Goodman, who has

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her master's in public health and was looking at public health policy, and we were discussing obesity in particular.

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Um, and you had some, some feedback on, you know, how I was using that language, um, and how it could be maybe better- [laughs]... uh, framed. Um, so, so my question is, and,

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a- and I'm asking because I'm genuinely curious. Like I- Mm-hmm... I work for a company that i- that uses evidence-based,

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uh, and, and peer-reviewed studies to drive decision-making and, and change, and often we, we reference, uh, obesity and, and related to health outcomes. So I'm...

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I understand, you know, what you shared on the communication and the, the, um, the preying on fear aspect, uh, that many, many articles seem to be focused on.

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But I'm, I'm still, I'm still struggling on the, the how do we... Like, w- what do we do there in, in a situation, or, or am I wrong? Where, uh, my understanding is that there, there is in fact

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research that, that links these two together. It's a loaded question. [laughs] Um, and I, I don't know if you're wrong. I think we're still learning a lot, but... And I don't mean to say you are wrong.

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[laughs] Right, right, right. Rather the evidence we're basing this off of. Um, so one of the things that I think I mentioned to you was I don't use the term-... quote, obesity to describe someone's health.

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I don't consider it a disease. If we look into the history of how it was classified as a disease, it's really problematic.

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Um, in short, it was voted upon by the American Medical Association in 2013 to be classified as a disease against the recommendation of an internal committee that- Mm...

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produced a paper saying it shouldn't be classified as a disease. Um, and we can talk about that if you want to, or we can [laughs] just direct people to an article with an excerpt about that.

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Um, so the reason I don't use the term is that it, it...

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because it's classified as a disease even though it shouldn't be, and because of the context that we are often talking about the word obesity within healthcare, it's very stigmatizing and it's pathologized in a way that it shouldn't be.

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Usually what we're talking about when we say obesity is a BMI category, which is also problematic because the BMI is a tool that was developed

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over 100 years ago based on a sample of mostly white European men, and has never been challenged in the healthcare world even though there are a lot of issues with using it because it misqualifies many people as, quote, unhealthy, and also misses a lot of people who are in the, quote, normal or what is often then referred to as, quote, healthy range even though they might also have h- other risk factors for chronic diseases.

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So I think within the healthcare world we've gotten really lazy about using BMI as a standard for health when it was, one, never designed to be an individual measure.

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It was designed to measure the health of populations, not of an individual, and two, the tool itself is really problematic and actually inherently based in racism and classism. So the, the researcher who developed it

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had a theory that certain bodies were better than others and wanted to identify how to measure the mean, the mean of a population to see what the best type of body could be and how to measure against that. So

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again, the term obesity is, in many cases, stigmatizing. It's, it's pathologizing a person based on their body size or shape.

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Um, it misdiagnoses people as, quote, unhealthy because we make assumptions about someone based on their BMI and what we think the research says, and then additionally we have research that has looked at overall mortality or risk factors for mortality in populations, and actually the lowest mortality risk is seen in the BMI category that is qualified as obese or overweight, excuse me.

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Um, and then the, the range of BMI that is qualified as obese and the range of BMI that's qualified as normal weight actually have the same mortality fa- risk factors, so or risk for mortality.

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S- but we don't talk about that [laughs] very much, do we?

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[laughs] Um, so there are, again, just a lot of problems with the BMI tool overall, and then that's often how we're getting to the place where we have identified a body as, quote, obese.

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Um, so those are some of my issues with that term.

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And then again, it's just pathologized and the medical community has turned it into something that's basically profitable as opposed to actually looking at other markers of health for that individual. Um,

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in addition, if anyone's curious, a little history on the BMI and our, our ranges.

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In I think it was either 1997 or 1998, the NIH decided to change the range of BMI from I think for men it used to be 27 and higher was considered overweight, and for women it might have been 26 and higher or maybe 28 and higher.

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I don't remember the exact numbers, but they decided to change it so that 25 was the marker for normal weight versus overweight in both genders or both sexes.

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Um, and they just kind of published that overnight and were like, "Never mind, we've changed it." [laughs] Um, and there's a lot of politics and money behind that of course.

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Um, but when we look at some of those maps that are like, "Oh, we've, you know, as a country we've leaned more towards the obese category over the years," we don't ever see the little asterisk that's like, "Oh, PS, in 1997- They changed...

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we actually changed the markers for that," just in case anyone was curious. Huh. That's fascinating. Yeah. Um, what are... So you mentioned some markers related to, you know, objective health status. Mm-hmm.

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As a dietician, what are you, what are you looking at?

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Well, first I would say as someone interested in public health, as you are and I think probably many of your listeners are, and I am as well even though I don't have formal education, I don't have an MPH and that wasn't really a huge part of my dietetics education although I think it should be, um, when we're thinking about health I just think it's really important to zoom out, and this I think was part of your conversation as well that we were talking about earlier.

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Um, we have certain things, again, that are within our control to some extent as individuals, but we have a lot of things that aren't. And so

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when we look at markers of health I think it's really important to also consider what are called social determinants of health, and those are things like relevant to today's kinda world events would be systemic racism and oppression, and communities who have not ever had really quality access to or reliable access to quality healthcare, um, or safe access to quality healthcare.

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Um, they maybe don't have access to safe areas or communities within which to move their bodies and to exercise outside or even be outside. Um, the stressors related to systemic racism and oppression, et cetera.

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So we have those social determinants of health which generally we think of as socioeconomic status, um-Education, race and ethnicity, et cetera. Um, and then we have

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what you asked about, which are kind of other measurable markers of health.

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And if I were working with someone who was interested in improving their health or changing it or just kind of looking at some of their risk factors, and they had access to safe movement and reliable healthcare, et cetera, I would say, "Okay, let's look at some of your family health history.

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So what are some of the chronic health diseases that you might be concerned about in the future or maybe that you're dealing with right now?

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Um, and let's also look at some of the other biomarkers," which you, Jonathan, are very familiar with. There's a lot of [laughs] them.

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[laughs] Um, so we put weight and body size and body type off to the side, and we can see very clearly all the other things, um, like blood pressure, blood glucose, A1C, triglycerides, cholesterol, you know, whatever else might be relevant to someone, maybe micronutrient deficiencies if that has been an issue for them in the past.

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Um, and again, many of thing... many of these things are related to social determinants of health, but there is, you know, little elements of control that we have over some of those outcomes for the most part.

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I'm talking mostly to your audience, which are people who like to run and probably have food security and financial security, and therefore have some access to what we think about as wellness. That is, uh, fascinating.

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[laughs] It, it's a, it's a, it's a part of it that I've not thought about before, or not thought at length about before. And I think it's important to, you know, to discuss.

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Um, before we dive too far down, um, carbs, let's talk about carbs. [laughs] As a dietician, you know, please tell me your thoughts on carbs. And I'm teeing you up here. Yeah. [laughs] Sure.

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How many soap boxes can Heather get on today? [laughs] Um, I mean, I don't really have thoughts on carbs other than, um, they are an important nutrient. I

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have learned, and it is not scientifically correct to call them an essential nutrient, meaning that we can get by without carbohydrates, and we can generate them internally from proteins.

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Um, if I'm being honest, I don't remember the exact metabolic pathways that that happens, so don't ask me about it, but I know we can generate them, and it is possible for our bodies to get by without carbs.

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That doesn't mean we should, right? Yeah.

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Um, [laughs] so, um, in terms of my athlete population that I work with, obviously I said earlier that I am a runner, and I do primarily work with active individuals in my private practice, so always team carbohydrate.

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And by that, I mean I encourage my clients, my athletes, my friends, anyone who will listen to make at least half of their food intake carbs.

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And while I'm not a huge proponent of tracking or logging for most people, I only use it when it's really necessary or maybe helpful and only short term, but, you know, for looking kind of overall at the things that we eat on a day-to-day basis are about half of them carbohydrates, and those would be not just grains and kind of the starchy carbs that people might think of, but also fruits and vegetables, of course, um, and lots of other foods that have smaller amounts of carbs.

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Um, so yeah, definitely pro carbohydrates.

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And I think one thing that is not as talked about or not as well understood is that when we aren't getting the amount of carbohydrates that we need, meaning that our body prefers, um, we are sacrificing some of the protein in our body, which then can impact or have an im- influence on our muscle mass and our strength because we're kind of breaking down protein in order to make those carbohydrates that we do need for brain function and muscle function and all of the other things.

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I love it. I ask that question because, um, as you can imagine, I talk with a lot of runners about food, and I'm, and I'm... I sit in on a lot of- [laughs]... the consults that our dieticians do. Yeah.

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And it's shocking the sort of allergy that people have to carbs, even as marathoners. And, and then to take it one step further, um, and I mean allergy, not, you know- I know. [laughs]... actual allergy.

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I love that you put it that way. [laughs] But, [laughs] um, and, and sort of the unintentional underfueling, which we'll get to in a little bit- Mm...

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um, I'm sure, but, like, I, I consider mysel- myself someone who's pretty on top of it when it comes to nutrition, and I started working with one of our dieticians because I wanted more, and I wanted to get more, um, insight from somebody who actually knew what they were talking about.

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And so she had me, um...

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So I, I, I had, I had one conversation with one of our team dieticians, and the takeaway there was I simply wasn't eating enough, and I needed to, you know, just eat more period, like 500 calories more.

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Then, um, earlier this year, I worked with, um, Alex Borsuk, who, or Alex Hasenhauer, who is a sports dietician as well, and she had me do some, um, food logging again just to sort of like get an idea of where I was at, and I was at like 40, mid 40% carbohydrates and really overdoing it on the protein.

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And I just found that fascinating. As someone that was, like, super, or what I thought was super dialed in- Yeah... um, I was, I was still missing a lot.

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And then, you know, she went back and said, "Oh, by the way, the blood work is, [laughs] is probably suggesting this too. Your cortisol is high," um, you know, things like that.

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And the, the difference that it's made from an energy standpoint and an ability to, um, to handle volumeLike, so I started getting more serious about running and training in general, I don't know, in 2018.

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And this coincided with the first time I had that conversation, and I essentially doubled my volume of running and added more food and felt better than ever before.

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I was running, you know, 65 miles a week, feeling better than when I was running 40 miles a week. Mm-hmm. And some of the- 35 miles a week.

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Some of that is due to training adaptation, but, um, I imagine that I was under-fueling for probably two years [chuckles] unintentionally. Yeah.

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Um, and it was fascinating that, the, like, I don't wanna say, like, overnight change that, that, that had, but like brain fog and energy and sleep, and like I PR-ed in the marathon by a huge amount and, and just like put together a big chunk of training that I hadn't done in a long time.

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Yeah. And it all comes back to nutrition. Right. Yeah. I mean, I will say that, you know, I'm always cautious of painting nutrition as the silver bullet to like more PRs and [chuckles] feeling- Right...

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better all the time. Um, there are a lot of factors that lead to that, again, so it's not, it's never the end-all be-all, but there are certainly some puzzle pieces that we can put together that are really helpful.

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The two questions that I ask all of my clients, anyone who's coming to me for any sort of nutrition advice is, "Are you eating enough, and are you eating carbs?"

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[laughs] So- [laughs] Um, and I feel like for most people, when we are able to answer the question of am I eating enough with a yes, and we can come back to that 'cause it feels very subjective, and I understand that, um, then we're, we're usually hitting all the markers.

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Like, yes, I'm getting enough micronutrients, meaning the vitamins and minerals that we need, and yes, I'm getting enough energy, meaning calories, and yes, I'm feeling pretty good overall, and I, you know, am able to move and do the things that I like to do, and I'm sleeping well, and I'm recovering quickly from my workouts, et cetera, et cetera.

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Um, but then coming back to the carbohydrate piece is we have [laughs] like you said, kind of a cultural allergy to carbohydrates.

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And it comes from a lot of internalized messages around nutrition, which is that for a really long time, we thought fat was really bad, and then we collectively as like both the mainstream media and the nutrition research world and dieticians and nutrition conversationalists decided that carbs were bad.

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So we had it all wrong. Fats are fine, but carbs are bad.

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And even though we have sort of evolved out of that conversation, there are still like really deep-seeded, lingering fears around carbohydrates, whether some people want to admit it or not, and they often surface when we start talking about eating more carbs.

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'Cause they'll say, "Oh yeah, yeah, sure. That, I can eat more carbs, like no big deal. That's fine." But then we actually start to introduce more carbohydrates, and they're like really resistant to it.

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Like, "Well, but that feels like a lot," or, or, "Are you sure that's not too much?" [laughs] You know, like- [laughs]...

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there's a lot of pushback and resistance because of how much we have internalized this message around carbs being bad and sugar being, quote, "addictive," blah, blah, blah.

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And also a lot of the fad diets du jour, um, they often boil down to low carb at this point.

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You know, that wasn't true 25 years ago, but I would say over the last 10 to 15 years, if you look at any fad diet that has really like, quote, "made it big" [chuckles] and, and had its day in the spotlight, it comes down to eliminating or reducing carbohydrates in some way, shape, or form.

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And a lot of people have tried some of those fad diets more than once and are stuck on this idea that it wasn't the fad diet that didn't work, it was their willpower or their body or something else that failed them as opposed to the fad diet being what failed them.

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So I'm glad you've had experiences [chuckles] with, with- [laughs]... registered dieticians who have changed your tune.

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Um, but it's really hard, and it often comes down to unlearning, again, a lot of internalized beliefs about our bodies and about carbohydrates in general and kind of unlearning something that we maybe once thought to be true.

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And then we also have athletes who evangelize a high-protein, high-fat diet, which is not to say that they're doing anything wrong or that it isn't working for them.

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I, I think it probably is, and that's why they're so psyched about it. But we all have different bodies, [laughs] and we all- Yes... respond differently to the nutrition that we need.

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And so it's really frustrating to see an athlete who is like, "Eat like me, be like me," and maybe they don't mean- Yeah... to send that message, but that's usually the message that is received.

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I love the unlearning that you referenced there. Um, so, uh, in, I don't know, maybe 2017, a couple of years ago, I like started realizing that

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one of the dieticians that I sit next to on a daily basis would eat donuts every Friday, and she would bring in donuts 'cause like there was a donut shop that would pop up on Fridays.

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And I was like, "Hmm, that's interesting." And, um, she, she sort of like pushed me to be more open in my own food choices and like to stop looking at like food like that as- Mm-hmm...

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like you shouldn't eat that, and you... Like coming from a dietician who loved her donuts.

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Um, and now, or maybe not now, but w- when I was traveling more frequently and eating, you know, with friends and athletes and whatnot, people would always be surprised that like I'd order pizza or like a, you know, big-...

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burrito bowl or whatever, and they're like, "Oh, you're the nutrition guy. Like-" [laughs] "... shouldn't you be eating a perf- perfect diet?" Um, and I used to, like, try and do that, and- Yeah... it hasn't...

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And, and again, like, that's another piece that has led to, uh, feeling better than ever before, sorta like easing back on, "No, I don't need to be perfect."

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And part of that comes, uh, we both know David Roche quite well. Yeah. And, um, he is, I mean, he'll literally put on your, on our training log, like, "Eat lots of fun foods today."

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[laughs] That's one that I [laughs] that I, that I remember seeing after I did a four-hour run one day. Um, and I ate a full pizza that night.

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Um, so I think stuff like that is, is hard for people to unlearn, but- Yeah... how, how, how could someone listening to this maybe take that first step?

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Well, I think one parallel that maybe will resonate, or I hope will resonate with a lot of people listening, is the importance of flexibility with our food is

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mirrored in the importance of flexibility everywhere else in our life, right?

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So if you look at your training plan, and you are the type of person who can only ever 100% stick to your training plan and only ever trains one way for all types of events, you're only gonna get one result, right?

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[laughs] Like, or you will- Right... continuously get the same type of results, um, and probably feel a little crazy in the meantime.

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Whereas if you're someone who appreciates flexibility with your running and can acknowledge that, you know, some days feel better than others, and s- some workouts need to be easy, and some workouts are intentionally hard, and some workouts are blah, blah, blah, you know, and

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is flexible in trying different types of running or different races or running with different people or whatever it may be, that we often benefit in a lot of different ways, not just the measurable strength, endurance, speed ways, but also the emotional, psychological ways where we feel better because we're doing different things or we're incorporating a social aspect to our running or whatever the case may be.

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And the same is true with other life things, but also [laughs] with nutrition. Um, what you're describing earlier with kinda the, quote, "perfect way to eat" or the

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good versus bad foods, that binary thinking is very normal and often very praised in the nutrition and health world, and especially in the running world.

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I mean, look at most running publication, it's like, "Foods runners should never eat," or- [laughs]... "Foods runners should always eat," right? [laughs] Right.

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Um, so we, it's very easy to get stuck in that binary thinking of this is either good or bad. It's either healthy or unhealthy.

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It's either this or it's that, as opposed to being more flexible and really neutral with food, which is something that I work really hard with people on because it takes a lot of unlearning because a lot of the ways that we think about and talk about nutrition is that it is either this or it's that.

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I mean, think about, like, the Eat This, Not That book. [laughs] Like- [laughs]... I think everyone probably has seen or knows about that book and so- Yeah, burn it down. Right, burn it down. Um- [laughs]

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So yeah, I think that flexibility is really, really important, and I'm again glad that that was modeled for you.

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And at the same time, I think it's really important to say that, like, the way that we eat, whether that's as someone in the running world, someone in the wellness industry, someone in the nutrition field, the way we eat is not our business card, right?

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Like, it's very individual, and there are a lot of reasons that someone might be eating something or not eating something, but that has nothing to do with how good they are at their job or how great they are as a person.

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[laughs] So I think we also have to uncouple and unlearn the attachment of, quote, "health habits" to our identity or our career or our worth or value or importance as a runner, right? And that's also really hard.

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It gets, like you experience, it gets really wrapped up in your identity, and then it's reinforced by what other people say to you or kinda think of you.

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Like, I've had many clients who have a hard time unlearning nutrition rules and being more flexible with food because they identify as the, quote, "healthy one" in their family.

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And they feel like if they go to a family function and they don't eat the salad, what will people think? And like, spoiler alert- [laughs]... people don't think that much. [laughs] You know, like- [laughs]...

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they just don't care that much.

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Um, so it, yeah, again, it is a lot of unlearning, and it, the, I think that that flexibility with food is far more important than most other health habits that we might hold onto really tightly. That's awesome.

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Let's talk about Lane Nine Project. Yeah, let's do it. What's Lane, what's Lane Nine Project? [laughs] So Lane Nine Project is, uh, we call it a nonprofit.

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We take $0 and never have, but it's in that way very much a nonprofit that, uh, was founded by Alexis Fairbanks and myself, and we had a third co-founder in the beginning, Sam Strong, who is still alive and well, but just not- [laughs]...

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currently involved. Um- She's not with us today. [laughs] Yeah. [laughs] She, she had other life things going on. No hard feelings. She's great.

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Um, so Alexis and I have been running it for the past couple of years, and, uh, no pun intended, but it is a community for women or women-identifying runners and active people who have struggled with disordered eating or eating disorders and are looking for a place to kind of find healing, community, support,

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all of the above, as they unlearn some of those behaviors or seek treatment for an eating disorder and want to still remain active in some way or want to still be plugged into their active community without feeling triggered or isolated in their struggles.

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What's been the most surprising, um, part of that?I think we were initially most surprised by the response to what we all posted.

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When we launched it three years ago, it was during the National Eating Disorder Association's Awareness Week, which happens annually at the end of February or early March.

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And we launched it on Medium, which is a publication of essays and articles, um, a website where you can publish things like that, uh, with all of our kind of personal stories, personal essays about our experiences.

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And the reason we launched it was to provide a space to talk about these things that felt safe and open for people who had experienced them, but also to

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try to move the needle on the lack of education that coaches, physicians, parents, mentors, and fellow runners have around these issues, which in the female or female-identifying, um, community is largely related to reproductive issues and long-term health issues that happen from disordered eating and over-exercising that some coaches have no idea about.

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And we saw that really come to light with the Mary Cain story, um, I guess that was late last year, 2019.

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Um, that there's just kind of this lack of knowledge in how to treat and adequately address the health issues that female runners come up against, or assigned female at birth. Um,

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so yeah, we launched it as a way to kind of create space to have those conversations, but also to move the needle on some of that, that gap in education and awareness.

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And what surprised us the most, I think, was just the overwhelming response from fellow runners. Like, I don't think we realized how much it would resonate.

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I think we hoped that it would [laughs] and we had, you know, big dreams to create, like, training materials and education opportunities for coaches and physicians and parents and mentors, um, and runners.

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But what we noticed right away when we launched was just how many people wanted to share their story and their experience and wanted to find that community to tap into so that they could talk about it and feel safe and supported.

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Um, whereas most people who have come to us and joined, we have a Facebook group, um, and we have a place where we publish essays. Like, most of the people who have come to us feel like they've never,

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A, had a vocabulary for what was happening to them or what they were experiencing, and/or B, didn't know where to talk about it and felt like they couldn't really turn to anyone. And so they feel--

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they find, you know, solace and connection in the community where there are other people who know what they're going through. So where do people find you? Mostly through the essays that we've published.

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Um, and then Alexis does a pretty great job running the Facebook account, which I take very, very little credit [laughs] for. Um- Yeah...

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she'll post, she'll post, like, articles and things in the news, and, um, that's kind of the public-facing Facebook account. And then our private Facebook community has sort of taken on a life of its own.

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We do very little to actually, you know, quote, "manage" that. I don't want to say that we're managing it, but to, you know, as admins, we do very little within that group, but it lives on its own as a place of support.

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So initially, people found us through the essays, um, that we were publishing on Medium, and then just people sharing it with their own communities if they were posting something.

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Um, and we write a newsletter, and I think sometimes that gets shared around. And Alexis, a couple of years ago, actually wrote a really, um, great personal essay for Runner's World that she submitted.

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I think they have an online submission form for personal stories, and she wrote about her own experience as a collegiate runner with an eating disorder, and that kind of went viral in, in our terms of viral, virality.

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Like [laughs] it didn't go viral on the internet like Mary Cain's. The good kind. Yeah. [laughs] Yeah. Yeah. Um, so we've had a lot of people that have come in through that as well. Cool.

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Um, I've had a lot of conversations with Mary Cain, and it seems like the, the structures behind, um, the position she was put in are starting to, uh, crumble in a good way. Yeah. Yeah.

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Would-- Do you think you would a- agree with that? I certainly do. And I mean, I'm not as involved in the, like, pro, elite, or collegiate running worlds as some people in this space, but I think-- So I can't speak

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as much to how much it's crumbling [laughs] in, in those spaces.

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But, um, you know, what we see within the Lane Nine community is that people are really craving a different tune when it comes to the way that we talk about health and nutrition and, and running, and they are craving, you know, more inclusive, more flexible language around all of those things.

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And we're kind of just fed up with the, like, you should be doing this to be a better runner type messaging, and that's, that's a lot of the conversations that we see.

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Uh, I think with Mary speaking up and sharing what happened to her, we also saw a lot of people calling for more female coaches, which is obviously important and I think will

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be a necessary part of the shift for many, many reasons, [laughs] not just for this reason, but because we should have that representation anyways.

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But the truth is that even a lot of us in the community who experience disordered eating or hypothalamic amenorrhea, which is, uh, when your period stops working or your menstrual cycle stops working because you're underfed and malnourished and over-exercised, a lot of us didn't even know what was happening when that was happening to us.

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So I think that, yes, having more women in, in coaching and kind of higher level positions is important for a lot of reasons, but that's not gonna solve the issue.

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What, what will eventually crumble the structures that are in place and provide more education to coaches and physicians is actually having conversations around women's health and acknowledging it on a broader spectrum and having more open and honest conversations about what happens in our bodies.

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Because if we don't understand that as the human that's experiencing it, we certainly aren't gonna have coaches and doctors that understand it either.Definitely. And I think that's happening.

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I've had a lot of conversations with Keely Henninger about this. She's a pro trail runner for Nike. Uh, she works for Nike, and, and one of her, um, passions is to, um, help people understand exactly this.

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Amelia Boone, same thing. Mm-hmm. We spoke at length about her own experience- Right... um, on this po- on the episode of the podcast I did with her.

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And what I found to be incredible from that is, like, pe- people reach out to me to tell me their story after hearing it from Amelia. Right.

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Uh, and they're like, "Thank you, thank you for, for sharing her conversation because, like, I feel the exact same way, and I thought I was alone." Right. And so that's, that's what I find to be the most, um,

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uh, uh, surprising part of all of it, is that the, the feeling of like I'm the only person that this, that is going through this, so it's a problem, and there's nothing I can do about it. Mm-hmm.

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Um, every time they hear a story like this, it's, it's combating that idea, which is a bad idea. Well, and it's- Or a- I think that's-... a wrong idea. Yeah. Yeah.

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I, I mean, I think that probably anyone listening ex- has experienced that to some degree with something in their life, right? Like- Right...

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if, if we don't hear anyone else talking about it, then there is inherently shame around the thing because- Right...

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we think it's the, we're the only person who's experienced it, or we've, and/or maybe we've done something wrong to get to this place, and so there is shame around that.

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And if we admit it, then we admit that we've done something wrong or that there's something wrong with us, right? Like- Right...

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I would, I know that a lot of women in this space who have experienced hypothalamic amenorrhea feel like, "Ooh, like, I'm maybe less of a woman," or, "I did something wrong and I broke it [laughs]," you know?

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Um, which is so heartbreaking, and part of the problem is we're just not, at least in this country, we're not conditioned to talk openly about our reproductive health, and that is true not just, you know, person-to-person or family member to family member, and of course, that, that is dependent on certain dynamics in your communities.

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But I think it's also true within the medical experiences. Like, it feels like a weird thing to bring up because it feels kind of like a taboo subject.

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And then if you do bring it up and the doctor you're working with doesn't know what you're talking about, that just reinforces the feelings.

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And so, yeah, again, with Lane Nine, we've just noticed that so many people were craving a space to talk about what they were experiencing, and sometimes didn't even have a language for it because they had never had a space to talk about what had happened or what they were going through.

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Yes. Um, one of the, the things that I'm always curious about for people who are, um... So, so this podcast, for the first, you know, maybe 50 episodes, it was all, uh, pro and elite runners.

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And in there I, I included a couple of, of, um, I call them high-performing professionals in some other area. So any time... So I'm always curious, like, why, why did you get into this field? Into nutrition?

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[laughs] Yeah. Uh, because I had an eating disorder.

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So I think, um, when I decided to study nutrition in college, I was thinking about food all the time, and it's very clear in hindsight that is a symptom of basically starvation or being malnourished, under-fueling.

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Um, again, something that maybe some people listening identify with, having these kind of constant food thoughts or a constant preoccupation with food. That's a sign your body's not getting enough food. And

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I came into college actually wanting to study architecture and pivoted to nutrition, which will, should be a really clear sign that I was really thinking [laughs] a lot about food, 'cause those two things- [laughs]...

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are very different. Um- Right...

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yeah, so I, I basically was just kind of obsessed with food at the time, and I was definitely not eating enough and was becoming increasingly obsessive about the right foods and the healthy foods.

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And it seemed very obvious to me, like, of course, I will study nutrition so I can learn how to do this better, how to, you know, be healthier, how to be better, and then I can teach other people how to be better.

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And it's, like, so cringey when I think [laughs] about that now- [laughs]... and also just so arrogant and so privileged, and, um, completely missing the mark on overall health as I think about it now.

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But, um, that is why I chose to study it, and I've had my qualms about remaining as a dietitian over the years.

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But I'm r- really glad that I've come into this space where I know that there are those of us who practice from what we call kind of a non-diet or anti-diet perspective, and again, help our clients, our patients, our communities with that kind of more flexible relationship with food and not being so obsessive and not turning it into something to try to kind of channel control through, you know, your other, like, what other, whatever else is going on in your life.

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So, um, long-winded answer, but [laughs] that's, that's- [laughs]... how I initially got into the field, and thankfully, I've stuck around for many, many different reasons. Cool. Well, we're glad you're here. Thanks.

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Um, w- [laughs] what is, uh, what is one thing y- you wish people knew about you? Um, interesting. That's a really good question. I think I wish people- Or do you have any...

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Yeah, go ahead. Oh, I'm, like, trying to think. That's a tough question. [laughs] Um- Or do you have any hidden talents?

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[laughs] Um, the hidden talent that I used to always share as my fun fact is that I was trained to use a chainsaw for a summer job- Wow... um, which comes with its own certification. Many people don't know that.

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Um, so that's [laughs] that's one thing I've done in my life.

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Um, I don't know that I have any other hidden talents, but, um, yeah, I think, you know, when people think of a dietitian or even, like, a running, a runner dietitian, a sports dietitian, they often think of someone who's very rigid and type A, and I like to dismantle that as quickly as possible.

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So I'm not very rigid. Got it. I'm very type B+ [laughs] like- [laughs]... um, sometimes I wish that weren't true, but it is true. Um, pretty laid back about most things. Cool.

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And where can we follow you on social media? I am @heatherdcrd on Instagram if you're looking for kinda running and nutrition type stuff, and my podcast account is @rdrealtalk.

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Um, and then we of course have an account for Lane Nine, although it's not super active these days, but that is @lanenineproject. Awesome.

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Well, Heather, thanks so much for joining in today, and, uh, hopefully see you out there again soon. Thanks, Jonathan. Of course. That's it for today's episode. Like many long runs, it's sad when it has to end.

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I hope you join in next week on For the Long Run, and in the meantime, happy trails. If you've enjoyed this episode, it would mean a lot to me if you shared it so that others can find it and enjoy it too